Mg deficiency or Rust fungi!!

[Agoblue97]

Alright lets start by saying i started noticing this on one of my plants about 2 weeks ago. At the time i was give a full dose of FF Grow Big and Big Bloom. I water with R/O water and everything is always buffered to 6.5-6.8 pH. Runoff is 6.2-6.5 pH. Last weekend I up potted everything to 3 gal pots using FFOF with 20% perlite added. Tuesday i noticed that it had moved from just the one plant now to almost all. At first i thought it was a Mg def. so I added Cal-Mag 3 days ago, but now after thinking about it and researching I think i might be rust fungi. My room gets down to about 62-65 F at night and up to about 75-80 during the day. Any info would be helpful, and if it is Mg def. how long after adding Cal-Mag should i start seeing some turn around. By the way it was a 10mL/gal dose.


[attachment=o262576]

[WashougalWonder]

This one is kinda tough. I know that RO water will cause a deficiency of all micronutrients not in the potting mix. Once it shows, it is too late. I frequently had that problem when using RO and even though I bolstered with cal/mag the damage was never reversible. IT only seems to get the big leaves and the tips of new growth.

BUT....Rust fungus sounds terrible and I am not positive what it looks like, though similar to what you show. Again, by stopping RO water, just using tap water that set for 24 hours, has eliminated the problem and my temps are lower and humidity higher than most folks this time of year.

For better information, fill out the troubleshooting form.

[Agoblue97]

What is your experience level? Novice outdoors, beginner indoors

Your Equipment:
.1) Type and wattage of lights. 400w Hortilux Blue MH
.2) Distance from tops? 12-18 inches
.3) Reflector type? Enclosed Reflector (YieldMaster II Supreme)
.4) Is there a consistent fresh air supply? Yes
.5) Do you have an exhaust fan and a circulation fan? Yes
.6) What are the bulb wattages, kelvin ratings, and schedule? 400w Hortilux Blue MH, on 18/6

Your medium:
.7) Specific brand and type of soil, and anything you've added to it. Fox Farm Ocean Forest mixed with 20% perlite
.8) Size of container. 3 gal
.9) Did you use peat pucks (or similar) to root clones or germinate seedlings? No

Your nutrients and water:
10) Source of water? R/O What's it's ph before adjusting? around 6.2-6.5 pH
11) Method of checking water ph. Liquid test kit
12) Method of adjusting water ph. pH down and up
13) Specific brand and N-P-K ratio for each bottle. List dosages (quantity per gallon) and current feeding schedule. FF Grow Big 15mL/gal and Big Bloom 20mL/gal, last time was 2 weeks ago, transplanted into 3 gal pots last weekend
14) How often are you watering between feedings, and how much per watering? I water twice between feedings about 2-3 cups each time
15) Any additives or tea's? Cal-Mag 3 days ago incase this is a Mg deficiency
16) Are your ph levels stable, or do they fluctuate? stable
17) What is your ingoing water's ph? ...your runoff ph? ingoing is 6.5-6.8, runoff is 6.2-6.5
18) Do you foliar feed? If so, with what, how often, and at what time do you spray? No

Your growroom:
19) Indoors or outdoors? Indoors
20) What size of closet, room or hut? 4'X4'X7.5'
21) What are the temps and humidity levels while lights are on? ...With lights off? 75-80 F on, 60-65 F off
22) Have you seen signs of insects in the growroom? No

Your strain:
23) What strain are you growing? (Indica dominate or Sativa dom?) White Widow(Sativa), and Himalayan Kush(Indica)
24) From seeds or clones? seeds
25) Is this an autoflower strain? No



That should about cover it, along with the post that started the thread. Any advice or help would be greatly appreciated.
__________________

[Agoblue97]

Here's a couple more pics of leave not as severely affected yet. Hope this helps someone identify the problem.


[attachment=o262597][attachment=o262598]:(

[polishpollack]

Have you googled this rust thing? I don't think it's mg def because that usually begins as golden yellow spotting in between the leaf veins. I'm wondering if you've given too much of a fert, but since it's been two weeks since the last dose, it's really hard to tell what's going on here. The damage appears random and brown, like heat damage from lights that are too close, but at 400w at 12-18 inches, I don't think that's it either. It's a tough one. I just did a web search and it looks like fungus can cause brown spotting with leaf curl, which is what you have going on there.

[WashougalWonder]

Ya, I think Mg and OTHER micronutrients are missing. Use some tap water that has offgassed the chloramines and properlly PH'd.

It is not JUST Mg, those micronutrients work together as a team. That is why tap water....not distilled, not RO, tap water.

[Agoblue97]

Alright my course of action will be switching to tap water with Cal-Mag added for about 2 weeks(already bought it might as well use some.), however i do believe my problem to be rust fungi. So have bought some sulfur and plan to build a vaporizer for it in the next day or so. Man that sulfur can really be a pain in the rear end to find. Then I'll run my vaporizer for a couple hours every 4 days or so until I don't see anymore signs of it, then I'll hit it every couple of weeks or so. Forgot to mention I'll be pruning any signs of it from my plants the day after I run the vaporizer for the first time. If anyone has any suggestions or advice I would love to hear it, if not, I'll let everyone know how this goes in about a week or so.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[canniwhatsis]

Have you seen any signs of growths on the underside of the leaves?


After searching Rust Fungi, you should be seeing something on the bottom of your leaves.

Your effected leaves look similar to what happens to my WW in vege when I over feed..... My blueberry mom did that just a little too when I double dosed her with vege nutes by mistake! :o

[Agoblue97]

If it was over fert wouldn't I be seeing something on the leaf tips? Man I stay to medicated, lol, but I swear it was on the first plant before I even added the fert. Also I ferted like a week and a half before it showed signs on most plants, but I did transplant a week after. You raise an interesting arguement Canni. You really think 15 mL/gal of Grow Big would've done this after transplanting into FFOF?

[Agoblue97]

Oh and the lights are off right now, but I'm pretty sure it's on the bottoms of the leaves also. If you look up through the bottoms of the leaves you can see it affected in the same spots as the tops. I'll look at it again in the morning when the real lights come on so I can get a better look.

[MadSativa]

weird one here, I think that cal mag might help, look for bugs under the leaves and on the steam too, also it will be a week or so till you see results of calmag, since damage starts at the roots first then up, some healing might be happining already. its good that you have the hygrozyme, keep using that it will help thoughs roots. keep us posted, if you want to take care of any fungus sulfer is good and cheep, and should be used any way, at least once in the grow, if not a few times or even once a week or once a month, untill a week or 2 before bud start to show up.also foiler spraying some neem oil regularly might help next time, to keep from getting this, However it does look like a deficiancy, but only time will tell. hopefull that calmag will help,

[Agoblue97]

http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/193496-first-indoor-grow-white-widow-himalayan.html


By the way this is a link to my grow log for more pics and a little more background. Once again Thanks for all the help I'm getting on this problem.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[MadSativa]

Text (http://cannabis.com/growing/nutrient-plant_abuse_chart_and_photos_pictures.html)

take a look at FIG. 6 and 7, kinda looks like what were looking at

[canniwhatsis]

Text (http://cannabis.com/growing/nutrient-plant_abuse_chart_and_photos_pictures.html)

take a look at FIG. 6 and 7, kinda looks like what were looking at



Thanks for that link,.... it's bookmarked now! ;) :hippy:

[WashougalWonder]

Yes, that is an awesome link, bookmarked myself. BUT I don't see any picture that looks right for this. I still stand by the RO water as the issue and loss of micronutrients. I had the problem with RO and stopped RO and the problem went away. It was diagnosed as rust fungus by several. It is gone from my garden since I went to straight tap water. That is the ONLY change and that is why I attribute the appearance to the absence of balanced micronutrients in the water.

[MadSativa]

no problem guys, I agree I dont see anything like what were looking at. I think their is some kind of other thing happening here fungus or desises of sort, a weird leaf indeed.

[Rusty Trichome]

In my garden, if the ph get's too high, I get the "canoeing" of the leaves. (not to be confused with "the Claw, which is a low ph issue) Your new growth looks awfully yellow compared to the neighboring plant.

You mention using phUp and phDown. You shouldn't need nor use both, and if you do the ph will bounce to extremes. Keep ingoing ph steady and trust the buffering of FFOF. At least for the first couple of months in the stuff. Once the buffering depletes, you'll notice the yellowing, the claw, and nutrient lock-out. At that time, raise the ph of your ingoing water by a couple of decimal points, and watch for any reaction. (from 6.2 ph to 6.5 ph, for example)

Are you trying to use the test drops to determine runoff ph, and are you trying to adjust your ph accordingly...? If so...stop. You can not determine accurate runoff ph with the test drops. The tinting skews the color-coded results. Same goes with trying to ph the water after adding nutrients. My wellwater comes out at 7.9ish ph. I use phDown to adjust water to about 6.8 or 6.9, then add the nutrients. This brings down the ph to 6.2 or 6.3ish.

Are you sure you're not giving any additives or foliar spraying? (this includes the recent past) No Superthrive or tea's or anything you've mixed yourself...? Looks a bit like heavy metals poisoning, but I'd try maintaining proper ph before doing any other damage from poisons and crap.

When watering or feeding, are you sure you are getting water down to the lower root zone? If you never do, I'd flush well with properly ph'd water, as you might be getting salt build-up. I use Fox Farms nutes, and perform a monthly 'maintenance' flush just for this reason.

[Agoblue97]

Alright guys thanks for all the help and advice. I've had this issue corrected for about a week or 2, but was waiting just to make sure. Since I had the Cal-Mag first I started it out on that while I was waiting on the Sulfur through the mail. By the time the Sulfur got here the problem was solved on the new growth. So I guess the Cal-Mag worked. I still haven't used the sulfur and the problem is gone on all but 1 of the plants. That one plant does look a ton better, but it just won't go completely on the mend. All the leaves that were affected had to be pruned off or they died on their own anyways. While pruning I did notice that the leaves were affected starting at the fan leaves on the bottom and then moved up. I also noticed that if I pruned 1 fan leaf off if I looked for what I call the sister leaf(exact opposite leaf on other side of plant) it would be affected as well. That tells me it was coming from inside the plant. If it was fungi it would have spread around the plants in an almost random pattern. So once again thanks all for the help. Mg and other micronutrient difficiency was the WINNER.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[polishpollack]

Maybe this was low calcium. An important one to remember. Thanks.

[WashougalWonder]

Maybe this was low calcium. An important one to remember. Thanks.
NO, it was a micronutrient deficiency....particularly calcium and magnesium.

RO water pulls all the good and the bad out of the water....IF you use RO you need to replenish the micronutrients.

Thanks so much for posting your findings. :thumbsup:

[polishpollack]

WW, isn't that what I wrote?

[WashougalWonder]

sorry, I guess I misunderstood.

[Rusty Trichome]

"Plants need calcium for cell wall development and growth. Pathogens attack weak cell walls to invade a plant, and stronger cell wall structure avoids this. Plants need calcium for enzyme activity, metabolism, and for nitrate (a useable form of nitrogen) uptake. Calcium and phosphorus are often found together. Plants need phosphorus to grow strong and healthy, for moisture regulation, photosynthesis, respiration, and metabolism. Weak and spindly plants often indicate the plants are not taking up enough phosphorus and calcium. Of course, there are other factors affecting plant growth such as pH imbalance, high sodium, over- and under-watering, poor drainage (humus can help with this), lack of oxygen (from compaction, and lack of organic material), and temperature stress. The ratio of calcium to magnesium is said to be a factor, but I have seen no research indicating such when considering the calcium form necessary for best plant uptake. Too much sodium in the soil can also bind up calcium and make it unavailable to plants."
Plants need calcium, too (http://davesgarden.com/guides/articles/view/1940/)

The cell damage can also start looking like OD'ing on heavy metals. I haven't seen a calcium def. like that in quite a while though. But perhaps the nutrients are salting-up the medium, locking-out the 'available' calcium in the soil. Do you ever flush the soil?

[MadSativa]

did anything help this situation? CalMAg?