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GTC21
04-27-2005, 10:50 AM
Is it legal in all states to carry a gun as long as you have a permit?

Can you carry a gun pretty much anywhere?

What would happen if you were carrying say your brothers gun which he had a permit for, would you get arrested?

What kind of guns are illegal in America, if any?

What kind of guns can you carry besides pistols?


I have an interest in guns but the nearest I can get to them is watching programmes about them on TV. I would go to America for the sole purpose of going to a shooting range.

NowhereMan
04-27-2005, 12:41 PM
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1998/schools/gun.control/


i can walk out my front door
pull my gun
and start shooting
nobody say a word or call the law
happens all the time

dylan
04-27-2005, 12:54 PM
well, in tn i can walk into the local wall-mart with $100 and my drivers licence and walk out with a gun. hand guns are a little harder to get, but if i just want to keep it at my house it's easy. the only hard part is getting a conceled weapon permit, which will allow one to carry their gun pretty much anywhere. byw, nice link nhm.

iclotsofpills
04-27-2005, 12:58 PM
so, how many times does the average citizen get shot, in say a week?

pills.

CletusVandam
04-27-2005, 01:00 PM
i live in Illinois and they don't provide concealed carry permits. Honestly, within the city limits of Chicago, guns aren't legal to even own. I don't know how that is constitutional but it is still the law here. You can't even pick up a gun at a gun store to look at it without a Firearm Owner ID Card (FOID). The laws suck here.

NowhereMan
04-27-2005, 01:20 PM
also i can walk down the road with a gun on my hip in plain view,it says if i have it under my shirt ect. ect. ,its concealed weapon and is a felony,but in plain view is allowed .that dont mean the law wont stop and mess with ya if they see ya,they just aint a hell of lot they can do about it,so long as it aint hidden and your no felon.

firm believer in my right to shoot your ass if your try to harm me or mine
legal or not.

GTC21
04-27-2005, 01:49 PM
"firm believer in my right to shoot your ass if your try to harm me or mine
legal or not."

Dead right Nowhereman. Everybody should have a right to defend themselves, their family and their property. Why should we live in fear of being attacked or robbed by some scumbag maggot. That's what pisses me off about the UK, we don't really have a right to defend ourselves or our homes. The law says we can only use "reasonable force" against a burglar. What bullshit, say if they have a knife or something, how can you "reasonably force" a burglar out of your home who has a knife or other weapon? I wouldn't give a fuck about the law if someone broke into my home, all I would be bothered about is my family being safe so I would launch the most aggressive, brutal attack against anyone who broke into my house, I wouldn't kill them I'd just fuck them up real good. I'm not saying I'm some kind of tough guy or anything because I know I'm not, that's just how I think I'd react in that situation, I'd be attacking out of fear.
I'm not sure how far you're allowed to go when defending yourself in the street over here. Say if about 5 people were punching the shit out of you what are you supposed to do? If 5 people are attacking you then you'd be fighting for your life, so you'd do anything you could to get them away like pick a rock up off the floor or some glass or something. But what pisses me off is you'd be prosecuted for it. Prosecuted for defending yourself, it's fucking ridiculous. I'm sure the police just expect us to stand there and let this shit happen.

amsterdam
04-27-2005, 01:52 PM
Is it legal in all states to carry a gun as long as you have a permit?

Can you carry a gun pretty much anywhere?

What would happen if you were carrying say your brothers gun which he had a permit for, would you get arrested?

What kind of guns are illegal in America, if any?

What kind of guns can you carry besides pistols?


I have an interest in guns but the nearest I can get to them is watching programmes about them on TV. I would go to America for the sole purpose of going to a shooting range.


no,you can't carry a gun anywhere.
if you had your brothers gun you would be arrested.
you can carry shotguns,pistols whatever as long as you have a permit.

Torog
04-27-2005, 02:03 PM
Howdy GTC21,

You lament:" I'm sure the police just expect us to stand there and let this sh*t happen."

Yup..and not only that,you can't sue the police,for failing to protect you or your family,as civilians..you and your family,are expendable..in their eyes,because wrongly accusing someone of criminal intent..is far worse in today's politically-correct society..than the loss of innocent,law-abiding citizens.

Here in America,liberals have seen to it,that the rights of criminals,are given precedence over the rights of victims..indeed..liberalism..demands that we all shoulder the mantle of victim-hood.

Have a good one ...

cotch and bun
04-27-2005, 02:36 PM
all this talk about guns... wheres the love? by owning a gun in the US you are increasing the liklehood of you or one of your family members being shot 400%. a gun for $100? thats crazy. why not just buy some weed and get high?

amsterdam
04-27-2005, 02:38 PM
all this talk about guns... wheres the love? by owning a gun in the US you are increasing the liklehood of you or one of your family members being shot 400%. a gun for $100? thats crazy. why not just buy some weed and get high?


oh o.k.

:mad:

mellow mood
04-27-2005, 04:13 PM
"firm believer in my right to shoot your ass if your try to harm me or mine
legal or not."

Dead right Nowhereman. Everybody should have a right to defend themselves, their family and their property. Why should we live in fear of being attacked or robbed by some scumbag maggot. That's what pisses me off about the UK, we don't really have a right to defend ourselves or our homes. The law says we can only use "reasonable force" against a burglar. What bullshit, say if they have a knife or something, how can you "reasonably force" a burglar out of your home who has a knife or other weapon? I wouldn't give a fuck about the law if someone broke into my home, all I would be bothered about is my family being safe so I would launch the most aggressive, brutal attack against anyone who broke into my house, I wouldn't kill them I'd just fuck them up real good. I'm not saying I'm some kind of tough guy or anything because I know I'm not, that's just how I think I'd react in that situation, I'd be attacking out of fear.
I'm not sure how far you're allowed to go when defending yourself in the street over here. Say if about 5 people were punching the shit out of you what are you supposed to do? If 5 people are attacking you then you'd be fighting for your life, so you'd do anything you could to get them away like pick a rock up off the floor or some glass or something. But what pisses me off is you'd be prosecuted for it. Prosecuted for defending yourself, it's fucking ridiculous. I'm sure the police just expect us to stand there and let this shit happen

oh come on man. do u really think any country would be safest if everybody would have a gun??? jeez man i mean wtf. tahts the worst thing to do. i guess u dont know how much teenagers kill students at school coz they are nerd. if someone gets crazy boom he kill someone. thats stupid man. i never wanted to wear a gun on me i mean wtf if u really need to have a gun u gotta problem or u should just change of country.

iclotsofpills
04-27-2005, 04:15 PM
there's something very unsettling about this thread.


i'd nearly start spouting anti-american propaganda if i wasnt so dammned sure it would be met with a torrent of pro-american rantings ye-haa's and gunfire.

pills.

mellow mood
04-27-2005, 04:17 PM
plus if theres a burglar i guess he will have a gun on him too if its legal. and i guess this law only encourage viloence but Bush is so much paid by the gun company(forgot the name) that he just cant illegalize it.

fuck weapons, we must live in peace.

peace!

amsterdam
04-27-2005, 04:17 PM
there's something very unsettling about this thread.


i'd nearly start spouting anti-american propaganda if i wasnt so dammned sure it would be met with a torrent of pro-american rantings ye-haa's and gunfire.

pills.


your a smart person. :cool:

LOVElife
04-27-2005, 05:21 PM
Im from UK and guns are for total mugs, a cricket bat is the way if you can no longer use your fists. Im sorry to say it but my generation in UK use fists and weapons but no muggy guns. Wave a gun and expect to be shot!

Talk about attracting attention!

amsterdam
04-27-2005, 05:26 PM
Im from UK and guns are for total mugs, a cricket bat is the way if you can no longer use your fists. Im sorry to say it but my generation in UK use fists and weapons but no muggy guns. Wave a gun and expect to be shot!

Talk about attracting attention!


sounds boring,if you really believe that "your"generation dosent use guns you must be prettywell insulated.

BUZz UK
04-27-2005, 06:22 PM
sounds boring,if you really believe that "your"generation dosent use guns you must be prettywell insulated.
you don't need a gun, hell you don't need any fuckin weapons, headbutt 'em! i've got a fat baseball bat in my house, so called 'protection', but i don't carry shit when i'm out. some of you yanks say it's a right to defend yourselves, LOOK AT THE STATISTICS FOR FUCK'S SAKE! you all fucking shoot each other!

amsterdam
04-27-2005, 06:40 PM
you don't need a gun, hell you don't need any fuckin weapons, headbutt 'em! i've got a fat baseball bat in my house, so called 'protection', but i don't carry shit when i'm out. some of you yanks say it's a right to defend yourselves, LOOK AT THE STATISTICS FOR FUCK'S SAKE! you all fucking shoot each other!


lots of people in england own and carry weapons,i know that much for sure.

what are ya gonna do?we americans are violent.always have been,always will be. :D

BUZz UK
04-27-2005, 06:57 PM
god bless america........

GHoSToKeR
04-27-2005, 06:59 PM
iclostsofpills, ive only red three of your posts so far and i agree with every single one of them

amsterdam
04-27-2005, 07:03 PM
plus if theres a burglar i guess he will have a gun on him too if its legal. and i guess this law only encourage viloence but Bush is so much paid by the gun company(forgot the name) that he just cant illegalize it.

fuck weapons, we must live in peace.

peace!

w paid by the gun company??thats a new one.good job. :confused:

LOVElife
04-27-2005, 07:11 PM
Exactly Buzz UK we English know the score when it coms to violence. Anyone can shoot somebody, n to be fair ive seen some yanks fighting on video and they look pretty lame without a gun. just seem to sucker punch then give shit when the persons nice and KO'd on the floor.

Cricket Bat instead of Baseball Bat, they are muggy aswell!

cotch and bun
04-27-2005, 07:19 PM
Amsterdam fraid its not entirely true that loads of people have guns in the u.k. and most gun crime is kept within gangs and doesn't usually harm the public. Detroit had more shootings than the whole of the Uk last year. Like everywhere else in this god damn world its not completely the case, but compared to america, Uk is fine.
I find it strange that America strives to cling on to the ancient principle that it is better to let people have the oppurtunity to defend themselves when it has been proven to be so wrong and hundreds die.

amsterdam
04-27-2005, 07:36 PM
Amsterdam fraid its not entirely true that loads of people have guns in the u.k. and most gun crime is kept within gangs and doesn't usually harm the public. Detroit had more shootings than the whole of the Uk last year. Like everywhere else in this god damn world its not completely the case, but compared to america, Uk is fine.
I find it strange that America strives to cling on to the ancient principle that it is better to let people have the oppurtunity to defend themselves when it has been proven to be so wrong and hundreds die.


what are you gonna do?violence is fun?

my uncle pete has a gun,my cousin rosie who is 24 and lives in london has a couple as does her friend tony.i think americans just like shooting people,LOL.

the law will NEVER change so people should get over it.

GTC21
04-27-2005, 09:40 PM
"oh come on man. do u really think any country would be safest if everybody would have a gun??? jeez man i mean wtf. tahts the worst thing to do. i guess u dont know how much teenagers kill students at school coz they are nerd. if someone gets crazy boom he kill someone. thats stupid man. i never wanted to wear a gun on me i mean wtf if u really need to have a gun u gotta problem or u should just change of country."

No, Mellow Mood, not at all mate. You've misunderstood me. Of course it would be crazy if everybody carried guns, I wasn't saying that. I was just saying that it pisses me off when people get prosecuted for defending themselves, their family or their property. I know it's a tricky subject, it's hard to draw a line somewhere when it comes to "reasonable force".

P.S- I'm not naming names but there were some unfair comments about Americans and violence. I know there are some extremely bad areas in America, far worse than many countries. But there are also extremely nice areas too, where the people are friendly and peaceful so it's unfair to say stuff like "Americans are violent". There are violent people everywhere no matter what country.

llamaman666
04-27-2005, 09:43 PM
In alaska you don't need a permit to have a concealed weapon. We have one of the lowest murder rates in America, but sadly high rape and suicide. If women carried guns........well rapists agree its a lot harder to rape someone whos shooting you.

mellow mood
04-27-2005, 10:36 PM
lowest murder rate in america? hahahaha. come ON. where do u take your sources?(or were u talkin only bout alaska? coz alaska does not have a lot of population...) coz from mines i always heard america has the highest criminalitity rate in north america, if not the world, and highest suicide rate too.

plus, how many shooting tragedy have been recensed each years in USA's schools? thats awesome. i live in cananda and we had like 1 or 2 in the past 15 years. sorry i may not be right but plz gimme your sources(link if u can) coz i can beleive USA has the lowest murder rate.

PLUS, if the rapist wanna rape the girl, well he'll proly have a gun TOO. so is he wanna rape sum1 i guess that should be even easier. anyway...

TheLion
04-27-2005, 10:40 PM
Watch "Bowling for Columbine", maybe that'll change your outlook on guns.

FMullegun
04-28-2005, 11:34 AM
Is it legal in all states to carry a gun as long as you have a permit?
No. Only about 45+ states have a concealed carry for handguns. they vary greatly as some states you can just carry a gun without a permit and some states you hve to be in extremely unique circumstances to get one. Over 36 staes have what is called a "Shall issue permit" which is if you qualify you must be granted one. You must realize that for some reason even though they are much less accurate, powerful and useful handguns are considered to be more dangerous by the idiots who makes laws so most of these regulations don;t apply to rifles and shotguns which can be carried without a permit more freely than handguns.

Can you carry a gun pretty much anywhere?

No. I am not sure about other states but in Texas you cannot carry on Federal property, schools, polling places, secure area of the airport, racetracks, or in bars.

What would happen if you were carrying say your brothers gun which he had a permit for, would you get arrested?

Again it depends on which state. If in a state that dosn;t require permits you will be fine. Totally legal. If you are carrying a rifle or shotgun in Texas it is totally legal without a permit. But you need to have a permit for a handgun

What kind of guns are illegal in America, if any?

Most all small arms are legal. Some things you need to pay a special tax for. Like grenades, HE (High Explosive),machine guns, suppressors, and short barreled rifles.

What kind of guns can you carry besides pistols?

In Texas pistols are the only type of gun you need a permit to carry. Rifles and shotguns can be carried without a permit.


I have an interest in guns but the nearest I can get to them is watching programmes about them on TV. I would go to America for the sole purpose of going to a shooting range.

Make a visit. You can go to a shooting range and rent guns if you have too. Machine guns or anything you want. I would just bring some ammo and ask to shoot other peoples guns. They will let you shoot as much as you want 99% of the time if you are shooting your own ammo.



Later!

GTC21
04-28-2005, 11:49 AM
Thankyou so much FMullegun, thanks for taking the time to answer those, much appreciated.

It's weird how the laws are stricter on handguns than guns like shotguns etc. I know handguns are small and easily concealed and that's what makes them more dangerous; but shotguns are super dangerous, it's a scary thought knowing that people can walk around (in Texas) with a rifle or shotgun.

catch ya later.

NowhereMan
04-28-2005, 01:01 PM
Watch "Bowling for Columbine", maybe that'll change your outlook on guns.

shit that show is all about making money off YOUR fears pay Mr Moore for it
its about like saying
if you want to learn about santa cluase watch Rudolf the rednosed riendeer

you people who want to dis arm the usa are scary to me,

amsterdam
04-28-2005, 03:11 PM
Watch "Bowling for Columbine", maybe that'll change your outlook on guns.


get outta here with that michael moore BS!your an idiot for believing that crap.do you know what directors call his film style?CHOP SHOP.

pisshead
04-28-2005, 03:37 PM
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north367.html

Gun Control and Genocide

by Gary North ([email protected])
by Gary North
Sunday, April 24th marked the 90th anniversary of the first genocide of the twentieth century: the Turkish governmentâ??s slaughter of over a million unarmed Armenians. The key word is "unarmed."

The Turks got away with it under the cover of wartime. They suffered no greater postwar reprisals for this act of genocide than if they had not conducted mass murder of a peaceful people.

Other governments soon took note of this fact. It seemed like such a convenient international precedent.

Seventy-nine years after that genocide began, Hotel Rwanda opened for business.

The Hutus also got away with it. Ironically, at least a decade before â?? I wish I could remember the date â?? Harperâ??s ran an article predicting this genocide for this reason: the Hutus had machine guns. The Tutsis didnâ??t. The article was written as a kind of parable, not a politically specific forecast. I remember reading it at the time and thinking, "If I were a Tutsi, Iâ??d emigrate."

It did not pay to be a civilian in the twentieth century. The odds were against you.

BAD NEWS FOR CIVILIANS

The twentieth century, more than any century in recorded history, was the century of manâ??s inhumanity to man. A memorable phrase, that. But it is misleading. It should be modified: "Governmentsâ?? inhumanity to unarmed civilians." In the case of genocide, however, this is not easily dismissed as collateral damage on a wartime enemy. It is deliberate extermination.

The twentieth century began officially on January 1, 1901. At that time, one major war was in full swing, so let us begin with it. That was the United Statesâ?? war against the Philippines, whose citizens had the naïve notion that liberation from Spain did not imply colonization by the United States. McKinley and then Roosevelt sent 126,000 troops to the Philippines to teach them a lesson in modern geopolitics. (http://shurl.org/philippinewar) We had bought the Philippines fair and square from Spain for $20 million in December, 1898. The fact that the Philippines had declared independence six months earlier was irrelevant. A dealâ??s a deal. Those being purchased had nothing to say about it.

Back then, we did body counts of enemy combatants. The official estimate was 16,000 dead. Some unofficial estimates place this closer to 20,000. As for civilians, then as now, there were no official U.S.-reported figures. The low-ball estimate is 250,000 dead. The high estimate is one million.

Then World War I opened the floodgates â?? or, more accurately, the bloodgates.

TURKEY, 1915

The diplomatic game is always verbal. The G-word is verboten. Turks accept â?? though resent â?? "tragedy." Hence, all official reports from government-funded sources all over the world â?? except Armenia â?? refer to the "Armenian tragedy." This game of diplomacy has been going on since the end of World War I. Reagan was the only President to have used the correct term. President Bush diplomatically used "mass killings" in his a 2003 reference to the event (http://shurl.org/calamitybush). He also referred to "what many Armenian people have come to call the â??Great Calamity.â??" Many Armenians call it this? Really? Name two. He also said:

I also salute our wise and bold friends from Armenia and Turkey who are coming together in a spirit of reconciliation to consider these events and their significance. I applaud them for rising above bitterness, and taking action to create a better future. I wish them success, building on their recent and significant achievements, as they work together in a spirit of hope and understanding.

Again, name two.

Not being even remotely diplomatic in matters genocidal, I prefer to use the dreaded G-word. The Armenian genocide of 1915 (http://shurl.org/armgen1895) had been preceded by a partial ethnic cleansing, which took two years, 1895â??97. About 200,000 Armenians were executed.

This event served as the background for Elia Kazanâ??s great movie, America, America (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6303113184/lewrockwell/) (1963), which was nominated for the Oscar in 1964. Kazan tells a fictionalized version of his Greek uncleâ??s emigration to America. Kazanâ??s family followed in 1913. The movie begins with a Greek and an Armenian, friends, who are warned by their former military officer, a Turk, of trouble coming. It comes. Turkish officials lock the Armenian along with other Armenians inside a church. Then they burn it down. The Greek sees this. He vows to get out of the Ottoman Empire and go to America. The movie traces his journey. America was a sanctuary. (http://www.mises.org/journals/jls/13_2/13_2_7.pdf) If ever there was a movie on America, the sanctuary, itâ??s America, America.

The Armenians were easily identifiable. Centuries earlier, the conquering Ottoman Turks had forced them to add the "ian/yan" sound to their last names. They were dispersed throughout the empire, so they did not possess the same kind of geographical concentrations and strongholds that other Christians did in Greece and the Balkans. They never did organize armed resistance forces. That was what led to their destruction. They could not fight back.

They were envied because they were rich and better educated than the ruling society. They were the businessmen of the Ottoman Empire. The same was true in Russia. The same resentment existed in Russia, though not with the intensity of the resentment in Turkey.

Non-Turkish estimates range from 800,000 to 1.5 million Armenians killed. Most of these deaths were low-tech but high efficiency. The army rounded up hundreds or thousands of civilians, drove them into wilderness areas, and waited until they starved to death.

GENOCIDE? NONSENSE!

It is still the official position of the Turkish government that this was not genocide; it was a relocation for military reasons. You see, there was a revolt being planned by Armenians and Russians in the border region of Van. This was the explanation provided in 1915 by the Turkish Consol General in New York, in a statement published in the October 15, 1915 issue of the New York Times (http://shurl.org/armgenvan). An autonomous republic was set up in Van, which was run by someone named Aram. (We read it here first.)

Then, somehow, things just got out of hand. The government was powerless. You know: just like all other governments during wartime with respect to the activities of officials in defense of the nation. Helpless. Whatâ??s a government to do? Therefore, in recent days, a minor official for the Turkish government has apologized (http://shurl.org/sorry).

"We apologize to the Armenians for us and our ancestors not having been able to prevent the Genocide." These are the words of Jashar Arif, representative of the International Exchange Confederation, who is a Turk. He has arrived in Armenia together with several other Turks to take part in the events of the 90th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide.

The Turkish government still maintains that the rulers had expected the Armenians to join with Russians to fight Turkey. As recently as April 24, the Philadelphia Enquirer reported that Yasar Yakis, the head of the Turkish Parliamentâ??s European Union Affairs Committee, explained the reasons for the relocations. "The Armenians were relocated because they cooperated with the enemy, the Russians, and they . . . killed Ottoman soldiers from behind the lines."

Armenians were systematically killed all over the Empire, not just on the Russian border. Relocation to a camp usually means providing food, shelter, and basic amenities. It doesnâ??t mean letting people starve in the wilderness.

The written text of the governmentâ??s order is controversial. (http://shurl.org/armgenorder) It was a state secret. One version was smuggled out of Turkey in 1916. It is posted online. As with all such secret orders, it should not be accepted automatically. But it serves as a starting point for full-scale research: open archives openly arrived at.

Our fellow countrymen, the Armenians, who form one of the racial elements of the Ottoman Empire, having taken up, as a result of foreign instigation for many years past, with a lot of false ideas of a nature to disturb the public order; and because of the fact that they brought about bloody happenings and have attempted to destroy the peace and security of the Ottoman state, and the safety and interests of their fellow countrymen, as well as of themselves; and, moreover, as they have now dared to join themselves to the enemy of their existence and to the enemies now at war with our state â?? our Government is compelled to adopt extraordinary measures and sacrifices, both for the preservation of the order and security of the country and for the welfare and the continuation of the existence of the Armenian community. Therefore, as a measure to be applied until the conclusion of the war, the Armenians have to be sent away to places which have been prepared in the interior villages; and a literal obedience to the following orders, in a categorical manner, is accordingly enjoined on all Ottomans:

First. â?? All Armenians, with the exception of the sick, are obliged to leave within five days from the date of this proclamation, by villages or quarters, and under the escort of the gendarmerie.

Second. â?? Though they are free to carry with them on their journey the articles of their movable property which they desire, they are forbidden to sell their lands and their extra effects, or to leave the latter here and there with other people, because their exile is only temporary and their landed property, and the effects they will be unable to take with them, will be taken care of under the supervision of the Government, and stored in closed and protected buildings. Anyone who sells or attempts to take care of his movable effects or landed property in a manner contrary to this order, shall be sent before the Court Martial. They are free to sell to the Government only the articles which may answer the needs of the Army.

Third. â?? Contains a promise of safe conduct.

Fourth. â?? A threat against anyone attempting to molest them on the way.

Fifth. â?? Since the Armenians are obliged to submit to this decision of the Government, if some of them attempt to use arms against the soldiers or gendarmes, arms shall be employed against them and they shall be taken, dead or alive. In like manner those who, in opposition to the Governmentâ??s decision, refrain from leaving or seek to hide themselves â?? if they are sheltered or given food and assistance, the persons who thus shelter or aid them shall be sent before the Court Martial for execution.

What happened subsequently was fully consistent with this order.

The Turkish government said in 1989 that the archives regarding the non-existent genocide were now open. (http://shurl.org/closedarchives) But, as it turned out, they were not open to Armenians studying the non-existent genocide.

What the archives prove, according to the Turkish government, is that the Turks were the victims of mass murder by Armenians. Yes, itâ??s hard to believe. But thatâ??s what the archives show. We can take the Turkish governmentâ??s word for this. On April 25, a report appeared on the website of the International Relations and Security Network which is partially funded by the Swiss defense agency. Here, we read: (http://shurl.org/turkishvictims)

Armenians say at least 1 million of their ethnic kin died between 1915â??17 as a result of a deliberate policy of extermination. They say the policy was initiated by the Committee of Union and Progress (Ittihad ve Terakki Cemiyeti), or CUP, which then ruled over the empire. Ankara claims the death toll is grossly inflated and that 300,000 Armenians died during these years. It also says the deaths were the result of negligence, interethnic strife, or wartime operations. It says the CUP leaders â?? also known as the Young Turks â?? had no intention of wiping out the empireâ??s largest remaining Christian community. While admitting to the massive deportations of 1915 â?? which followed the massacre of 200,000 Greeks â?? Turkeyâ??s official historiography says the transfers were aimed at preventing Armenians from collaborating with Russia. Tsarist Russia was then at war with the Ottoman Empire and its German ally. Turkeyâ??s official historiography also asserts that more than 500,000 Turks died at the hands of Armenians between 1910â??1922.

On April 25, 2005 â?? hot off the TurkishPress.com site â?? we learn of that ruthless counter-genocide. (http://shurl.org/deadturks)

Turkish Republican Peopleâ??s Party (CHP) deputy leader Onur Oymen said on Monday, "if you must express grief about Armenian casualties, you also have to talk about more than half a million Turks who were killed in the same incidents."

In a written statement, Oymen said that the decision of the U.S. president Bush not to use the term "genocide" represents the reality.

We must not be too happy about Mr. Bushâ??s statements, told Oymen. "We know for sure that 513,000 Turks were butchered by Armenians. Donâ??t we have a right to ask for sympathy for the murdered Turks?"

"If you are going to mention these incidents and express grief for the Armenians who lost their lives in those incidents, it is our right to expect a word of sympathy for more than half million Turks in the same incidents."

All right, his story is a bit scrambled. Itâ??s now up to 513,000 Turks in 1915â??17, rather than 500,000 Turks 1912-22. But itâ??s all there. In the archives.

We are also assured by a spokesman of the Turkish Ministry of Justice that Turkey has had enough of this genocide nonsense. Quite enough. On April 25, 2005, TurkishPress.com posted this story.

Turkish Minister of Justice and Government Spokesman Cemil Cicek has indicated that, after many years of leaving the issue of so-called genocide to historians, it is now high time for Turkey to start disproving all allegations in various countries.

High time, indeed! Those historians, tied as they are to misleading primary source documents, simply cannot be trusted. They do not pay sufficient attention to primary source documents of official Turkish assurances for 90 years that nothing was happening or had happened, preferring instead to cite unreliable eyewitness accounts of what did happen. Armenian political influence is behind this.

Cicek noted that Armenians influenced the parliaments of the countries in which they are powerful and succeeded in obtaining parliament decisions in their favor in 15 countries.

Ah, yes: the well-known Armenian International Network, which dominates parliaments around the world. (http://shurl.org/archivalproof)

As Turks, we wished that, instead of turning incidents of the past into a topic of hatred and anger, they should be brought to daylight by the historians with an approach looking at the future. . . .

Based on our archives and confidence in our history and culture, we can say that no genocide took place.

[i]THE BLUE BOOK

What has stuck in the craw of the Turkish government for almost 90 years is an official report issued by the British government, The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire 1915â??1916. If you donâ??t think governments stick by their official versions of history, consider this April 22, 2005 story in Londonâ??s Financial Times (http://shurl.org/bluebook).

Turkey challenges genocide â??fraudâ??

By Vincent Boland in Ankara

Published: April 22 2005

The Turkish parliament was yesterday preparing to ask the UK to repudiate a historical document that is considered to form the basis of the claim that Armenians were victims of genocide by Ottoman Turks during the first world war.

The initiative comes on the eve of Sundayâ??s 90th anniversary commemorations among Armenians of what they regard as the start of the massacre of up to 1.5m people.

The move is likely to exacerbate the bitter dispute between Turks and Armenians. Supporters of the Armenian cause, particularly in France, are lobbying for the European Union to delay the start of Turkeyâ??s accession talks for EU membership until Turkey acknowledges a "systematic extermination" in 1915.

Turkish MPs completed and signed a letter to both houses of the UK parliament arguing that the document was "a fraud based on fabrications, half truths and biased reports and perceptions" of what happened and "a masterpiece of propaganda and tool of deception".

The document, The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire 1915-1916, was written by the British historian Arnold Toynbee and included in a publication known as the Blue Book, by Viscount Bryce, a British diplomat. It was an official Westminster document, which is why the Turkish parliament wants the House of Commons and House of Lords to act.

Turkey rejects the charge of genocide. It insists that the true death toll among Armenians was about 600,000 and that many died from the effects of civil war, starvation and deportation. It says the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Turks at the time are overlooked.

The letter, which was made available yesterday by the Turkish parliament in the original Turkish and in English translation, will be sent to London imminently.

The letter says British propaganda in the first world war aimed to portray the destruction of the Ottoman Empire as a key aim of the war, to "render British colonialism in Anatolia and Mesopotamia palatable", and to encourage the US to join the Allied side. The Ottoman Empire collapsed into many nations after the war. Its Anatolian heartland is now Turkey.

The British embassy in Ankara declined to comment on the letter. Some Turkish historians say the document has stood the test of time; others say Mr Toynbee later distanced himself from its findings, which were based on eyewitness accounts.

The official UK position is that the massacres were "an appalling tragedy" but that the evidence is not "sufficiently unequivocal" to categorise them as genocide under the 1948 United Nations Convention on Genocide.

Viscount James Bryce was a master historian. His book, The American Commonwealth (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0865971161/lewrockwell/) (1888), is still read by American historians as a primary source document regarding educated English opinion about America. He served as Ambassador to the United States from 1907â??13.

The name Arnold Toynbee may ring a bell. By the 1950s, he was one of the most prominent historians on earth. His 12-volume study (1934â??61) of 26 civilizations is unprecedented in its breadth. The Treatment of Armenians (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1903656516/lewrockwell/) was his first major publication.

Why some Armenian organization has not bought a copy of Adobe Acrobat Pro 7 and scanned in the full volume, with the documents, remains a mystery to me. The book is in the public domain: pre-1923. But Toynbeeâ??s summary is online (http://shurl.org/armgenguns). This section, which appears in Part VI, "The Deportations of 1915: Procedure," is enlightening. Read it carefully. It is the crucial aspect of the entire genocide. The government confiscated their guns.

A decree went forth that all Armenians should be disarmed The Armenians in the Army were drafted out of the fighting ranks, re-formed into special labour battalions, and set to work at throwing up fortifications and constructing roads. The disarming of the civil population was left to the local authorities, and in every administrative centre a reign of terror began. The authorities demanded the production of a definite number of arms. Those who could not produce them were tortured, often in fiendish ways; those who procured them for surrender, by purchase from their Moslem neighbours or by other means, were imprisoned for conspiracy against the Government. Few of these were young men, for most of the young had been called up to serve; they were elderly men, men of substance and leaders of the Armenian community, and it became apparent that the inquisition for arms was being used as a cloak to deprive the community of its natural heads. Similar measures had preceded the massacres of 1895â??6, and a sense of foreboding spread through the Armenian people. "One night in winter" writes a foreign witness of these events," the Government sent officers round the city to all Armenian houses, knocking up the families and demanding that all weapons should be given up. This action was the death-knell to many hearts."

I own a copy of The Treatment of Armenians. Or, rather, my wife does. In it, there are two accounts of events in Van, which is where the Turks say a revolt broke out, thereby justifying the forced relocation. These reports were written by Y. K. Rushdooni (as it is spelled in The Treatment of Armenians), my wifeâ??s grandfather. They are extremely detailed: street by street activities. Some might think they are just too detailed. Not so.

Y. K. Rushdoony had a photographic memory. Once, his son Haig caught him in his easy chair in front of the fire, head down, eyes closed. "You were sleeping," Haig kidded him. "I was meditating on what I have just read," he replied. "Come on," Haig said. "You were asleep." He handed Haig the book. "Ask me anything about the pages where the book is open to." Haig did. He said that his father began answering each question, word for word, by what was on the page. He went on for two pages. Haig told me this story 50 years later and confirmed it yesterday. "It was the only time I ever challenged him." When, in his old age, Y. K. began to lose his eyesight, he memorized dozens of psalms, so that he could read them at family gatherings. If his sons knew, they did not tell him. Haig, a Ph.D. in geography, has a good memory. Rousas John, his older brother, was also generally regarded as no slouch in the memory department â?? a master of the footnote. Ask him a question after one of his lectures, and you might get another lecture. (His dying words, after he had briefly exposited a passage that his son had read to him on his deathbed, were these: "Are there any questions? (http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north33.html)") But, compared to their father, they both said, they were outclassed.

On her way home in 1915, his pregnant wife came across her fatherâ??s remains in the street. He had been hacked to death. Y. K. took her, his young child, and a £100 sterling note that had been given to him when he graduated from Edinburgh, and fled across the border into Russia. The boy drowned in the escape. The money â?? hard currency â?? got the two of them across Russia to Archangel, and from there they bought passage to the United States. Rousas was born in 1916 in New York City.

GUN CONTROL

Lenin disarmed the Russians. Stalin committed genocide against the Kulaks in the 1930s. At least six million died.

The model for 1968 Gun Control Act (http://www.jpfo.org/GCA_68.htm) â?? even the wording was taken from Hitlerâ??s legislation of 1938, which was a revision of the 1928 law passed by the Weimar government. A good introduction to this politically incorrect history of American gun control is on jpfo.org: (http://www.jpfo.org:/) Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership.

When Maoâ??s troops took a village, they would kidnap rich people. They would then offer to return the victims in exchange for money. The victims would be released upon payment. Then they would be kidnapped again. This time, the demand was for guns. Then they would be released again. This made the deal look reasonable to the families of the next victims. But once they had the communityâ??s guns, the mass arrests and executions began.

The idea that the individual has a right of self-defense is written into the U.S. Constitution: the second amendment. Carroll Quigley, who taught Bill Clinton history at Georgetown, was an expert in the history of weaponry. He wrote a 1,000-page book on medieval weaponry. He argued in Tragedy and Hope (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/094500110X/lewrockwell/) (1966) that the American Revolution was successful because the Americans possessed weapons that were comparable to those possessed by British troops. This, he said, was why there were a series of revolts against despotic governments in the eighteenth century. When government weapons became superior, the move toward smaller government ceased to be equally successful.

There is a reason why governments are committed to disarming their citizens. They want to maintain the monopoly of violence, no matter what. The idea of an armed citizenry is anathema to most politicians. After all, whatâ??s a monopoly for, if not to be used?

CONCLUSION

Genocide happens.

It doesnâ??t happen whenever the would-be targets own guns.

amsterdam
04-28-2005, 03:39 PM
didnt you post this in politics already?

ermitonto
04-28-2005, 03:45 PM
This is one of the few issues where I actually (ugh) agree with the conservatives. Any adult should be able to own a firearm, barring severe mental problems. You're not going to rid society of guns and if only certain people are allowed to have them (or only certain people are willing to illegally obtain them) that puts them in a dangerously superior position. In the interests of equality, everybody should have equal self-defense capabilities.

amsterdam
04-28-2005, 04:02 PM
This is one of the few issues where I actually (ugh) agree with the conservatives. Any adult should be able to own a firearm, barring severe mental problems. You're not going to rid society of guns and if only certain people are allowed to have them (or only certain people are willing to illegally obtain them) that puts them in a dangerously superior position. In the interests of equality, everybody should have equal self-defense capabilities.


never thought i would hear you say that?? :confused:

ermitonto
04-28-2005, 04:06 PM
never thought i would hear you say that?? :confused:

Well, politics isn't as black and white as people think. A lot of people say "I'm going to entrench myself on this side of the political spectrum and adopt my beliefs accordingly", but I don't think there's any group of people that doesn't have a few good ideas up their sleeve even if I disagree with most of what they say.

amsterdam
04-28-2005, 04:07 PM
Well, politics isn't as black and white as people think. A lot of people say "I'm going to entrench myself on this side of the political spectrum and adopt my beliefs accordingly", but I don't think there's any group of people that doesn't have a few good ideas up their sleeve even if I disagree with most of what they say.


well put.

TheLion
04-28-2005, 04:53 PM
I don't care what others call his style. My stance on it is that a disarmed America would be a safer America. Agree with me or not, but that's my view on it.

amsterdam
04-28-2005, 04:54 PM
never gonna happen so until then i am gonna keep my guns

F L E S H
04-28-2005, 05:08 PM
Well, politics isn't as black and white as people think. A lot of people say "I'm going to entrench myself on this side of the political spectrum and adopt my beliefs accordingly", but I don't think there's any group of people that doesn't have a few good ideas up their sleeve even if I disagree with most of what they say.
lol, I'm with amsterdam... This was unexpected coming from you. Regardless of my political beliefs, I don't think guns should be allowed plain and simple. There's absolutely no good that can come from owning a gun.

ermitonto
04-28-2005, 05:27 PM
Right, in an ideal society there would be no guns. There wouldn't even be the temptation to use them. But the technology has been invented and it isn't going to be forgotten. Guns are going to find their way into the hands of people who want them, legitimately or not, unless you can somehow find a way to dismantle all of the arms stockpiles from every military in the world, burn all the technical manuals describing how to make guns and kill anybody with enough detailed knowledge about making them. And even then, it's just a matter of time before somebody thinks up the idea again.

GHoSToKeR
04-28-2005, 08:08 PM
maybe one day guns will be antiques and we'll be using phazers.. beam me up, scotty, and all that, eh what, pip pip, cheerio

FMullegun
04-28-2005, 09:19 PM
lol, I'm with amsterdam... This was unexpected coming from you. Regardless of my political beliefs, I don't think guns should be allowed plain and simple. There's absolutely no good that can come from owning a gun.

What about stopping a group of dudes from gang raping your girl?

2 guys v. one guy ...numbers wins unless guns make them equal.

Or how about just simply feeling safe when you go out? Oh wait I forgot you probably don't go "outside" ;)

Smokin2
04-28-2005, 09:45 PM
Gun laws change depending on what state you live in. Some of my family in Texas carry their guns on a rack in their trucks. Here in Ohio they just passed new gun laws allowing you to carry a weapon. Now everywhere you go there are warnings at work places and in every store stating you can't bring your gun inside. As far gun ranges I grew at them. My stepdad loved to fire his gun, but only for fun. He taught us well you never point a gun at anyone unless you plan to pull the trigger. I don't have gun, nor do I allow my husband to have one. We have three young children in the home and I wouldn't want anything to happen to them or their friends. I don't care for guns although I grew up around them. I think that if I had to pull a gun on someone b/c they had one, they would be more likely to shoot me first anyway so what is the point. I keep my nose clean and stay out of trouble. Does that mean someone won't break into my home and kill me? NO! It just means I'm willing to take my changes aganist someone breaking into my home over one of my children finding it and shooting it first. I don't have a problem with people protecting themselves and feel we all have a right to that, I just don't want one myself is all. Hope that helps.

Hydrizzle
04-30-2005, 02:50 AM
Yea, American do like the IDEA of shooting someone. I do. However, if it came to it, i wouldn't do it (maybe). Its good to have a gun because they are fun as hell, cool as hell, and scary as hell.

Stedric
04-30-2005, 03:04 AM
I see where your guys are coming from, but I'd still refrain from having a gun. Statistically I'm more likely to harm a family member with one than an intruder, so locking my doors at night is about as far as I'll go. Maybe a home security system as well. To each their own.

ermitonto
04-30-2005, 03:07 AM
Same here. I don't want a gun myself. I don't want the risk of accidentally harming myself or someone else. But I think other people should be allowed to own them if they so choose and if they know about gun safety.

wannagethigh
04-30-2005, 03:11 AM
no,you can't carry a gun anywhere.
if you had your brothers gun you would be arrested.
you can carry shotguns,pistols whatever as long as you have a permit.


this is false information, but thanks for sharing. It is illegal to carry a gun in MOST states, but I know there are a few that allow such a thing. The ones I am sure about are vermont and arizona.

FMullegun
04-30-2005, 07:22 AM
this is false information, but thanks for sharing. It is illegal to carry a gun in MOST states, but I know there are a few that allow such a thing. The ones I am sure about are vermont and arizona.

http://www.moccw.org/images/ccwmap.gif

FMullegun
04-30-2005, 07:27 AM
this is false information, but thanks for sharing. It is illegal to carry a gun in MOST states, but I know there are a few that allow such a thing. The ones I am sure about are vermont and arizona.

Nope. You aren;t sure. Its Vermont and Alaska.

FMullegun
04-30-2005, 08:04 AM
I see where your guys are coming from, but I'd still refrain from having a gun. Statistically I'm more likely to harm a family member with one than an intruder, so locking my doors at night is about as far as I'll go. Maybe a home security system as well. To each their own.

OK I know where you heard that statistic but let me tell you how it is slanted.

The original one is if you have gun it is more likely to kill a family member or a close friend than an intruder.

But think about this. first all it included in the sample is fatalities. Why is that? There are tons of cases where an intruder comes in, the home owner shows the gun screams "get the fuck out of here" then the crackhead burns off. Not a fatality but definetly a positve not inluded in the stat. Also doesn't include an instruder that is injured which is very common when you think about both shooting in he dark, under extreme stress and in a situation where police/ambulance will come soon.

The second thing to realize is where does most of the violence come from in a home? Well its obviously from a family member or a "Close friend" so even if it was a situation of a friend raping someone and was shot or incest then that would be included in the statistic because it was a family member or close friend.

Lastly think about suicide. People will kill themselves if they have guns or not. In japan there are basically no guns but they have one of the highest suicide rates of first world countries. If someone wants to kill themselves guns may be an easy choice but if you eliminate that method they will still do it in some other way.