what happened at the meeting today?

[copobo]

I heard rule(s) that effect caregivers were decided on today.

anybody have any details?

[MtnLionCO]

Draft of Colorado pot rules is a 90-page tome - The Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/news/marijuana/ci_16794489?source=pkg)

[porone]

I am new to this forum Yet not new to the scene.You may want to look at this

YouTube - Colo. Dept. of Revenue Destroys Confidentiality of Medical Marijuana Registry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuYn9C_BbjM)


Someone needs to tell these asshats the war is over and cannabis wins

[copobo]

I think it might be time to be done with MMCs. I don't need 'em and really only went for novelty or a clone. I'm not a tinfoil hat wearer, but this is just wrong.

[TheReleafCenter]

Not sure on the DoR side, it's been a crazy week here at the shop. CDPHE has a meeting tomorrow, maybe that's it?

[TheReleafCenter]

Sorry for the double post, but here is Westword's coverage of yesterdays DOR meeting:
Medical marijuana database puts patients at risk of federal prosecution, advocate says (VIDEO) - Denver News - The Latest Word (http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2010/12/medical_marijuana_database_federal_prosecution.php )

[SoCoMMJ]

I think that they are going to run into trouble with the database if they include names. Confidentiality is assured in the constitution and can not be violated.

However, it would be possible to run the database using only the card number and exp date without violating patient rights.

We need a database that we can enter a patients card number and see if the are still registered with the center. Currently there is no way to confirm your patient and respective plant or product volume counts.

Patients changing centers without notice can expose the center to felony cultivation or possession charges.

[TheReleafCenter]

They're trying to make it illegal to change caregiver before your plants are harvested.

[COzigzag]

I think that they are going to run into trouble with the database if they include names. Confidentiality is assured in the constitution and can not be violated.

However, it would be possible to run the database using only the card number and exp date without violating patient rights.

We need a database that we can enter a patients card number and see if the are still registered with the center. Currently there is no way to confirm your patient and respective plant or product volume counts.

Patients changing centers without notice can expose the center to felony cultivation or possession charges.

This is one of the biggest issues I have as a caregiver. There is no way to verify if a patient has changed their caregiver with the CDPHE.

I just want to be able to verify if my plant count is still legal or not at any given time.

[copobo]

They're trying to make it illegal to change caregiver before your plants are harvested.

wow. it really isn't about the patient is it? this is a shining example.

if you want to worry about harvest dates, etc, you might as well grow.

[Colodonmed]

They're trying to make it illegal to change caregiver before your plants are harvested.

How would a patient know that the centers growers have harvested that patients plants?, also doesn't the center run a perpetual harvest?, if so then a patient can never change.

[MtnLionCO]

I never hear patients' advocates pushing for higher growing limits for individuals. All I ever hear is debate about regulation for medical marijuana centers.

I want to be able to grow outdoors on my property, and at least 20 plants.

I believe in Spain this is what people do, not spend hundreds of dollars at dispensaries.

[MtnLionCO]

This sharing of information is just another good reason to stay away from MMCs.

[TheReleafCenter]

wow. it really isn't about the patient is it? this is a shining example.

if you want to worry about harvest dates, etc, you might as well grow.

Listen, there are a lot of people gaming the system out there. If you sign up with someone, it's not unreasonable to say they should get three months to grow your plants. People who shop hop put businesses at risk of having inaccurate plant counts.


How would a patient know that the centers growers have harvested that patients plants?, also doesn't the center run a perpetual harvest?, if so then a patient can never change.

I believe it would be based around a reasonable time frame for a plant to finish. I don't think any center is going to hold your plant hostage and keep you there forever. If they did, I'd report them to the DoR.

[Colodonmed]

Listen, there are a lot of people gaming the system out there. If you sign up with someone, it's not unreasonable to say they should get three months to grow your plants. People who shop hop put businesses at risk of having inaccurate plant counts.



I believe it would be based around a reasonable time frame for a plant to finish. I don't think any center is going to hold your plant hostage and keep you there forever. If they did, I'd report them to the DoR.

agreed, but say a patient assigns a center on day 1, the center now gets that patients plant count going. Day 5 the patient visits the center and finds the medicine the center is now offering for sale is not a strain that benefits the patient and decides that he will take his business elsewhere, with this, are you saying that with the new proposed rule the patient would be held hostage for 3-4 months, the reasonable time frame for a complete grow? Damn, I hope not.

I wonder how many patients are going to leave the registry with these new proposals? If what I read is right, the patients picture, transactions including the amount of medicine purchased and the frequency of purchases will be captured on video and also entered into the database, I doubt if many patients will be willing to put their private lives under such scrutiny. I bet we see a lot more lobbying by these centers to make this a more patient friendly system or they will probably end up all shutting down. Hmm, I wonder

[canaguy27]

I wonder how many patients are going to leave the registry with these new proposals? If what I read is right, the patients picture, transactions including the amount of medicine purchased and the frequency of purchases will be captured on video and also entered into the database, I doubt if many patients will be willing to put their private lives under such scrutiny. I bet we see a lot more lobbying by these centers to make this a more patient friendly system or they will probably end up all shutting down. Hmm, I wonder

Not many will stay. I can't tell you how many people I have talked to that are worried about their name being on a CONFIDENTIAL list. They are just shooting themselves in the foot if it passes. I can't believe the MMCs are not up in arms about this. They will lose patients and the shirts off their backs when they go under. Then the DOR will lose funding and all the dominoes will fall.

[TheReleafCenter]

agreed, but say a patient assigns a center on day 1, the center now gets that patients plant count going. Day 5 the patient visits the center and finds the medicine the center is now offering for sale is not a strain that benefits the patient and decides that he will take his business elsewhere, with this, are you saying that with the new proposed rule the patient would be held hostage for 3-4 months, the reasonable time frame for a complete grow? Damn, I hope not.

I wonder how many patients are going to leave the registry with these new proposals? If what I read is right, the patients picture, transactions including the amount of medicine purchased and the frequency of purchases will be captured on video and also entered into the database, I doubt if many patients will be willing to put their private lives under such scrutiny. I bet we see a lot more lobbying by these centers to make this a more patient friendly system or they will probably end up all shutting down. Hmm, I wonder

Couple things. First, you're not held hostage by an MMC, you can visit whoever you want. You may not get the caregiver benefits from the new place, but it is what it is. It's going to encourage people to be more judicious in who they select as their center/caregiver, which is a good thing.

Second, I don't think that this system is designed to go "Wow, John Doe bought an eighth on Monday and then ANOTHER on Friday!" They don't have time to do that. I think they're looking for people who are buying their maximum two ounces from multiple shops, changing their primary caregiver/center all the time, etc. There has to be some safeguard against those kinds of abuses.

Lastly, who do you think is going to release this information? There are steep penalties, not to mention the law suit you'd be able to file. I keep hearing people talk about this list as if it's going to be published in this Sunday's Denver Post. It's all still held confidentially. I'd jump for joy if the state leaked anything related to status as a patient, same for my lawyer.

[canaguy27]

Princess Leia: The more you tighten your grip, [Colorado], the more [patients] will slip through your fingers.

[Colodonmed]

Not many will stay. I can't tell you how many people I have talked to that are worried about their name being on a CONFIDENTIAL list. They are just shooting themselves in the foot if it passes. I can't believe the MMCs are not up in arms about this. They will lose patients and the shirts off their backs when they go under. Then the DOR will lose funding and all the dominoes will fall.

That's what I mean by the lobbying statement. Without a patient count, how could a center survive, and I for one am not planning on having every transaction I am involved with recorded and stored for any reason whatsoever, no way man!

[HighPopalorum]

The marijuana working group also got a full look at the new safety and sanitation regulations. The new rules likely will include a ban on some pesticides, limits on others and some warnings that pregnant women shouldnâ??t ingest pot products made with some products.

The rules include the nationâ??s first regulations for the safe production of hashish, including requirements that hash producers have exhaust hoods and other safety equipment and must use lab-quality metals and glass, not plastics that are commonly used but can impart dangerous chemicals into the hash.

The group debated whether to ban unsafe chemicals that canâ??t be tested, but regulators proposed going ahead and banning anything unsafe so that pot producers know what they shouldnâ??t be using and patients know what theyâ??re smoking.

â??I think patients have a right to know what theyâ??re ingesting, period,â?� Cook said.~AP

Cool. :thumbsup:

[Colodonmed]

Couple things. First, you're not held hostage by an MMC, you can visit whoever you want. You may not get the caregiver benefits from the new place, but it is what it is. It's going to encourage people to be more judicious in who they select as their center/caregiver, which is a good thing.

Maybe it would have been better if 1284 had allowed for centers to pay a fee based on plant counts versus patient numbers, that way centers know what they can grow period, every day they would know, then when they decide they can afford to get bigger, buy the higher count license and move up, then the patients would be free to shop wherever the best deals are, kinda like every other business out in the world. I just do not get the whole picture on this patient count deal, aren't your patient numbers constantly changing?

Second, I don't think that this system is designed to go "Wow, John Doe bought an eighth on Monday and then ANOTHER on Friday!" They don't have time to do that. I think they're looking for people who are buying their maximum two ounces from multiple shops, changing their primary caregiver/center all the time, etc. There has to be some safeguard against those kinds of abuses.

Whatever the sytem is " designed " to do, that information they are planning on collecting is a violation of my privacy. What the system is " designed " for today, may totally change tomorrow.

Lastly, who do you think is going to release this information? There are steep penalties, not to mention the law suit you'd be able to file. I keep hearing people talk about this list as if it's going to be published in this Sunday's Denver Post. It's all still held confidentially. I'd jump for joy if the state leaked anything related to status as a patient, same for my lawyer.

There have been stiff penalties since the beginning of time, but they are not always a deterrent. A quick remimder of confidential data bases - wikileaks

[copobo]

before long, they will make it legal to check the DB to do spot home checks, and they'll check it fishing for busts. They'll use it to take your drivers license, health or auto insurance, or job away.

you are a damn fool if you think otherwise.

[TheReleafCenter]

That's what I mean by the lobbying statement. Without a patient count, how could a center survive, and I for one am not planning on having every transaction I am involved with recorded and stored for any reason whatsoever, no way man!

Aren't most transactions at MMC's recorded and stored? Hell, it's a requirement in Denver. Any place that does patient rewards or has POS software probably has an inventory tracker. I think a lot of this is status quo.

And aren't you much more concerned that MMC's can change hands and the new owner now has your paperwork, maybe your purchasing history, your ID, and the last four digits of your social security number? That anyone who breaks in could get that information? Or anyone who hacks their computer?

Conversely, an leo is the first person I want to have my information. I'm a patient, you're not ticketing me, go away. I thought we were fighting for 24/7 access so we didn't have to worry about the registry not being open?

I'm not concerned with a DoR employee having that info either because they can't do anything with it. I'm also one of 100,000+ patients in Colorado, I'm not that important to them. I also seriously doubt I'd be flagged in their system and it's legitimately in place to catch people trying to abuse the program. And I do believe they'll take every precaution to limit the number of employees that work in that capacity and keep things completely confidential.

And as far as "federal prosecution", I don't buy the premise. It's kind of an all or nothing proposition: they're going to go after hundreds of thousands of patients across the county or they're going to selectively prosecute people. Amendment 20 doesn't even allow you to be in violation of federal law unless you're very seriously ill. None of this happens, though, until they shut down all the centers and ipm's and litigate that, which is the most likely scenario if there was a dramatic shift in the federal perception of medical marijuana.

I get that it would be nice if the registry could handle all of this, but I think that the DoR will be better funded and hence do a better job executing it. This also paves the way for the system to be funded entirely by MMC's and IPM's, possibly leading to a decrease in the state application fee. That's a legitimate argument here.

For the record, we have never donated a red cent to COMMR. I do think that Betty has really turned things around there and would encourage you to talk to her about your concerns with her organization. We do support CTI (although our check is late, sorry!) but just don't agree this time.

I'd really like some discussion here, because I feel like I might be completely missing the point.

EDIT: Or I'm a damn fool. :jointsmile:

[copobo]

I signed up for a confidential registry. this smacks of anything but.

there should be someone at the DOH 24x7 to take calls from leo when they are in the presence of a patient, with their card number.

This is going more and more they way the overly paranoid have been suggesting all along.

This SAME KIND of information could NEVER be shared this way, for anything but MMJ.

seriously - I am worried about the next step. The step where the DB will become part of BG checks and insurance records.

It's going there Releaf. It really is.

The only opt out now is patient grows - tens of thousands more of them.

[TheReleafCenter]

Okay, I don't want to come off argumentative, but I really want to break some of that down.

When you say that this program doesn't sound confidential, in what capacity are we talking? The proposals I've heard are vague. I also bet that because it's become such a hot topic now they'll err on the side of over-protecting info. We'd both agree that leaks of information are not in the departments best interest?

I didn't really think about the insurance factor. I guess I don't forsee them doing that, it would be massively unpopular. I also think that there's a big difference between another government agency having access vs a private company.

Patient grows seem like the worst thing to do if you're worried about federal prosecution of MMJ, right? I believe each plant federally is equal to 100 grams.

[copobo]

When you say that this program doesn't sound confidential, in what capacity are we talking? The proposals I've heard are vague. I also bet that because it's become such a hot topic now they'll err on the side of over-protecting info. We'd both agree that leaks of information are not in the departments best interest?

The DOR should not have my confidential medical info. When the mmj mission crosses with other missions (like Dr. regulation) we have a big problem!


I didn't really think about the insurance factor. I guess I don't forsee them doing that, it would be massively unpopular. I also think that there's a big difference between another government agency having access vs a private company.

doesn't it bother you that this is contrary to our Constitution?


Patient grows seem like the worst thing to do if you're worried about federal prosecution of MMJ, right? I believe each plant federally is equal to 100 grams.

nah, a 6 plant grow can be done cheap without crazy ventilation and cooling, etc, and there will always be bigger fish. The more patient growers there are, the safer all will be. Patient growers won't get their picture taken, the quantity they consume recorded, nor will they be tracked. Someone can't fuck up, and the rules can't change such that their shit is on record in a way that could come to haunt them later.

this is bad bad bad bad.

[MtnLionCO]

Aren't most transactions at MMC's recorded and stored? Hell, it's a requirement in Denver. Any place that does patient rewards or has POS software probably has an inventory tracker. I think a lot of this is status quo.

And aren't you much more concerned that MMC's can change hands and the new owner now has your paperwork, maybe your purchasing history, your ID, and the last four digits of your social security number? That anyone who breaks in could get that information? Or anyone who hacks their computer?

Conversely, an leo is the first person I want to have my information. I'm a patient, you're not ticketing me, go away. I thought we were fighting for 24/7 access so we didn't have to worry about the registry not being open?

I'm not concerned with a DoR employee having that info either because they can't do anything with it. I'm also one of 100,000+ patients in Colorado, I'm not that important to them. I also seriously doubt I'd be flagged in their system and it's legitimately in place to catch people trying to abuse the program. And I do believe they'll take every precaution to limit the number of employees that work in that capacity and keep things completely confidential.

And as far as "federal prosecution", I don't buy the premise. It's kind of an all or nothing proposition: they're going to go after hundreds of thousands of patients across the county or they're going to selectively prosecute people. Amendment 20 doesn't even allow you to be in violation of federal law unless you're very seriously ill. None of this happens, though, until they shut down all the centers and ipm's and litigate that, which is the most likely scenario if there was a dramatic shift in the federal perception of medical marijuana.

I get that it would be nice if the registry could handle all of this, but I think that the DoR will be better funded and hence do a better job executing it. This also paves the way for the system to be funded entirely by MMC's and IPM's, possibly leading to a decrease in the state application fee. That's a legitimate argument here.

For the record, we have never donated a red cent to COMMR. I do think that Betty has really turned things around there and would encourage you to talk to her about your concerns with her organization. We do support CTI (although our check is late, sorry!) but just don't agree this time.

I'd really like some discussion here, because I feel like I might be completely missing the point.

EDIT: Or I'm a damn fool. :jointsmile:

How anybody could watch FERN'S presentation and think these rules are a good idea is BEYOND ME!!!

[HighPopalorum]

More nutty paranoid predictions. What you're predicting is not gonna happen, folks.... just like all the other apocalyptic proclamations that are spewed all over the internet every time regulations change.

[TheReleafCenter]

The DOR should not have my confidential medical info. When the mmj mission crosses with other missions (like Dr. regulation) we have a big problem!

What's uniquely bad about the DoR? I don't see how anything gets leaked, exposed, whatever. Especially in light of the discussion that a lot of people are having about this.


doesn't it bother you that this is contrary to our Constitution?

I guess I just can't look at it as untouchable. Or perfect as it stands. I don't see what they're doing as any more unreasonable than telling people they can't yell fire in a movie theatre. If I want to be able to walk into a store and buy cannabis, I expect it won't be without some kind of oversight. What's the smarter play here? How do we stop people from buying a P a day of super cheap ounces from centers and flipping it on the street?


nah, a 6 plant grow can be done cheap without crazy ventilation and cooling, etc, and there will always be bigger fish. The more patient growers there are, the safer all will be. Patient growers won't get their picture taken, the quantity they consume recorded, nor will they be tracked. Someone can't fuck up, and the rules can't change such that their shit is on record in a way that could come to haunt them later.

this is bad bad bad bad.

If there will always be bigger fish, doesn't it stand to reason that the centers will ALWAYS be that bigger fish? I mean, IPM's plant counts aren't tied to patient numbers... they can grow four billion plants under state law.

[TheReleafCenter]

More nutty paranoid predictions. What you're predicting is not gonna happen, folks.... just like all the other apocalyptic proclamations that are spewed all over the internet every time regulations change.

I don't think anyone's a nutjob, just that most of the news is so heavily spun nowadays it's easy to take arguments on face. The COMMR hate baffles me; they've completely redone their organizational structure and have someone competent and compassionate at the helm. Admittedly, I haven't done too much investigating because A) we don't donate to them and B) I'm waiting to see that change manifest itself through some specific initiatives.

I'd love to see a group with a track record of successful lobbying do something that helps the community when everyone reconvenes in January. Seems like those are the last people you should be throwing mud at.

[copobo]

Releaf, I think we come from two totally different perspectives.

You've given your life - money and personal info, agreed to background checks and whatever else from what you went through in order to apply to the state to get your dispensary. The privacy you've given up is not a big deal or you've grown to live with it.

I don't share my SSN with the hospital. The amazing thing is, after I refuse to give it to them, life goes on, they accept my insurance, and I am served like anyone who has given them everything they wanted. My last visit, they wanted to photocopy my drivers license?! no thanks. they were fine with that. I don't do this because I think the sky is falling, I do this because information is often mishandled. I've had my id stolen twice, so I have some reason for not putting info out there if I can avoid it. It seems the current registry just needs some staff and an 800 number. That's in line with the Constitution.

[porone]

More nutty paranoid predictions. What you're predicting is not gonna happen, folks.... just like all the other apocalyptic proclamations that are spewed all over the internet every time regulations change.

Nahhh We trust our govenment After all they have your best intrest at heart.Save our children and regulate the cat back in the bag send it all back underground and create criminals so LEO can justify there job as terorists.

I see it happening 1284 and 109 has done this already.I can buy top shelf off the street cheaper than at a center.

I know about 30 patients 5 signed all there rights away to work or own a MMC 2 opted out right from the start .The ones who opted out are the oldest (in there 60s)

MMCs better wake up and fight against all this unconstitutional crap or they will die a slow death

[HighPopalorum]

Meh. I'm just bitter. A lot of people on this board don't understand the most basic elements of how government works. They don't understand how state, local and Federal government share powers and functions. They seem to draw no distinction at all between the Constitution, Colorado law, statute and ordinance. The don't seem to know or respect any of their leaders. They don't understand how laws are made, how our legislature works, what kinds of redress citizens have. They do not know what to do when they disagree with their government. After 30 damned years of Law and Order, they are still absolutely clueless about their rights and the police. All of this ignorance translates into conspiratorial fantasies of persecution and general hostility toward any

....ahh helll this is rambling B.S. Obviously, my generalizations don't apply to all, most, or even many of the posters here.

[TheReleafCenter]

Releaf, I think we come from two totally different perspectives.

You've given your life - money and personal info, agreed to background checks and whatever else from what you went through in order to apply to the state to get your dispensary. The privacy you've given up is not a big deal or you've grown to live with it.

I don't share my SSN with the hospital. The amazing thing is, after I refuse to give it to them, life goes on, they accept my insurance, and I am served like anyone who has given them everything they wanted. My last visit, they wanted to photocopy my drivers license?! no thanks. they were fine with that. I don't do this because I think the sky is falling, I do this because information is often mishandled. I've had my id stolen twice, so I have some reason for not putting info out there if I can avoid it. It seems the current registry just needs some staff and an 800 number. That's in line with the Constitution.

But how do they stop people from abusing the system with some staff and an 800 number?

[copobo]

if it's a closed system, off network, it is as secure as it can be.

When staff takes a call, leo says that have patient name with patient number is it legit? The answer is yes or no.

I can't imagine more than one staff person would need to be on this at a time during off-hours.

[TheReleafCenter]

But there are two fundamental questions: how to prevent people from changing caregivers/centers constantly and buying more meds or plants than they're allowed under the constitution.

[copobo]

But there are two fundamental questions: how to prevent people from changing caregivers/centers constantly and buying more meds or plants than they're allowed under the constitution.

why does it matter? I thought counts weren't tied to centers, so no need for incentives or keeping patients. Let them shop where they want.

The price on the street is better than at dispensaries so why would someone go to a dispensary to buy too much?

The only thing this crap will accomplish is to push more sales underground.

And under the constitution, patients may use as much as they need. I guess if we install a system, if you need to purchase more than 2 oz's at a time you are screwed. We do keep hearing of people having to drive hours to get meds, and now with more local moratoriums, there is an even greater affirmative defense for this.

EDIT: The state should just be explicit and say counts aren't tied to patients and let the patient whoring (hording) end.

[TheReleafCenter]

Counts are tied to centers, just not IPM's.

I'd argue that if you're looking to bargain shop, you'll be able to find something on par with street pricing with far greater variety and access to edibles, hash, etc.

Wouldn't this system have the opposite effect than you described? If you're approved to have more than 2 ounces then that is tracked and you're at less risk than the status quo, where you have a registry card that doesn't indicate increased plant counts. And once again, those with extended recommendations are a small, small percentage of patients in the state.

[copobo]

the underground market almost withered away by the end of last summer - now, it's back in full swing.

One of my patients called last night and asked if I could take on 2 friends who don't want to be on a database.

Unfortunately, I can't take them (but I am trying to sell them some spare lighting gear!).

anecdotal, yes, but I don't think this isn't going to be a big deal for a bunch of people, which seems to be what you are hoping for. I think going this route is going to make many people shop underground who would otherwise have shopped at an mmc.

[asscore]

before long, they will make it legal to check the DB to do spot home checks, and they'll check it fishing for busts. They'll use it to take your drivers license, health or auto insurance, or job away.

you are a damn fool if you think otherwise.

100% agree with this.

[porone]

copobo

But I would add that its the perseption that people will have about big brother over the shoulder and prying eyes is all it is going to take to kill the MMCs.It will not matter if its true or not a very large amount of MMCs customers will be gone.

[Colodonmed]

and the nail hits the head!

[MtnLionCO]

Meh. I'm just bitter. A lot of people on this board don't understand the most basic elements of how government works. They don't understand how state, local and Federal government share powers and functions. They seem to draw no distinction at all between the Constitution, Colorado law, statute and ordinance. The don't seem to know or respect any of their leaders. They don't understand how laws are made, how our legislature works, what kinds of redress citizens have. They do not know what to do when they disagree with their government. After 30 damned years of Law and Order, they are still absolutely clueless about their rights and the police. All of this ignorance translates into conspiratorial fantasies of persecution and general hostility toward any

....ahh helll this is rambling B.S. Obviously, my generalizations don't apply to all, most, or even many of the posters here.

I guess you're not a fan of Alex Jones.

[GratefulMeds]

I think it might be time to be done with MMCs. I don't need 'em and really only went for novelty or a clone. I'm not a tinfoil hat wearer, but this is just wrong.

this State law where they seem to be Gaming the rules every chance they can is making me more nervous for my clients GM and others everyday. there has to be away to sit it out and prepare for their next move. They have made allot of the so-called conspiracy nuts fortune tellers. It's hard to understand their logic unless you go back to Romer's quote "our goal is to eliminate dispensaries" what was the number 80 or 90%. and here is where it seems rigged, we listen and follow what guidelines we are given so we may operate legally but it seems like every-time a client gets past that rule making board they make another to run more interference. who knew except 60% of the worlds leaders that the United States Government are so corrupt and treat their citizens this way, and now with wiki-leaks that percentage goes up also, way up!
Got any of those tinfoil hats?;)

[GratefulMeds]

Meh. I'm just bitter. A lot of people on this board don't understand the most basic elements of how government works. They don't understand how state, local and Federal government share powers and functions. They seem to draw no distinction at all between the Constitution, Colorado law, statute and ordinance. The don't seem to know or respect any of their leaders. They don't understand how laws are made, how our legislature works, what kinds of redress citizens have. They do not know what to do when they disagree with their government. After 30 damned years of Law and Order, they are still absolutely clueless about their rights and the police. All of this ignorance translates into conspiratorial fantasies of persecution and general hostility toward any

....ahh helll this is rambling B.S. Obviously, my generalizations don't apply to all, most, or even many of the posters here.

This was all planned by tricky Dick and the Jerry Ford, when they stopped teaching and focusing on Civics and Government in grades 6 through 8 and only giving it lip service in high school, to stop all those radicals from hitting the streets and government buildings and demanding their Constitutional rights as American citizens, and putting a stop to governmental corruption, I would be hard pressed to believe a 6 or 7th grader even knows what civics means.
:mad:

[senorx12562]

All the politicians, bureaucrats, mmc owners and "patients" scurrying around trying to justify(the former) and comply with(the latter) the everchanging regulatory schemes just crack me up. Its like watching one of those ant farms. One wonders when one of the ants will look around and say "Hey, wait a minute, this is utterly worthless and is accomplishing nothing. No matter what I do I'm still trapped in here. I elect not to participate any longer." It's just not possible that I'm the only one who sees that this whole fucked-up mess is totally unnecessary. When we, in our understandable haste to agree to ANYTHING that got us closer to legalization, agreed to the phony distinction between "medical" and whatever the alternative is, we sold our souls to the devil. Our invitation to regulation has been accepted with relish. Enjoy, people. I elect not to participate any longer.

[MtnLionCO]

All the politicians, bureaucrats, mmc owners and "patients" scurrying around trying to justify(the former) and comply with(the latter) the everchanging regulatory schemes just crack me up. Its like watching one of those ant farms. One wonders when one of the ants will look around and say "Hey, wait a minute, this is utterly worthless and is accomplishing nothing. No matter what I do I'm still trapped in here. I elect not to participate any longer." It's just not possible that I'm the only one who sees that this whole fucked-up mess is totally unnecessary. When we, in our understandable haste to agree to ANYTHING that got us closer to legalization, agreed to the phony distinction between "medical" and whatever the alternative is, we sold our souls to the devil. Our invitation to regulation has been accepted with relish. Enjoy, people. I elect not to participate any longer.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Kartel]

Whew, glad I let my MMJ permit expire a couple of months back!!


I'll definitely be telling all my former patients to do the same.


Releaf has really revealed themselves in here... :wtf::wtf:

[TheReleafCenter]

Whew, glad I let my MMJ permit expire a couple of months back!!


I'll definitely be telling all my former patients to do the same.


Releaf has really revealed themselves in here... :wtf::wtf:

Listen, I'm trying to have a discussion about these issues. Only copobo seems willing to engage. I haven't heard compelling answers or alternatives yet.

[ThaiBuddhaMan]

...I would be hard pressed to believe a 6 or 7th grader even knows what civics means.

What are you talking about? Civics are cheap little cars made by Honda....
:jointsmile:

[copobo]

Listen, I'm trying to have a discussion about these issues. Only copobo seems willing to engage. I haven't heard compelling answers or alternatives yet.

The thing to consider with all of the responses though, is how people feel about this. Will it effect their spending habits at your MMC? You don't think so?

[Dnutz]

isnt all of this basically the same shit that happened in california? they still have their shit together so why are we all so worried? and think about where we all came from, we all started in our closets with small lights, maybe a fan or two, and our biggest worry was being busted by the cops... now its all about following regulation this and DOR that... if all else fails, let your license expire and go back to your roots!

as far as patients going around to several dispensaries and buying the 2 ounce limit, that just screams "legit black market dealer"... and this does need to be taken care of. however, like cob, i frequent a handful of dispensaries to acquire clones of strains I cant get in seed form so I may keep them for my personal medicinal stash for years to come. but I also purchase meds from these places as well, just as any other patient has the right to do, or does regularly. is there anything wrong with that?

[porone]

Listen, I'm trying to have a discussion about these issues. Only copobo seems willing to engage. I haven't heard compelling answers or alternatives yet.

I wish there was a good answer.

Last year at about this time and through Jan I was watching our law makers close.As soon as the first draft(HB1284) was posted I started writing email and letters telling them all to vote no.Not enough of us did so

Where were you and all the rest?

1284 and 109 passed and in july or there abouts YOU ALL SIGHNED AWAY YOUR RIGHTS.

You should have all stood up then.Now how can you.YOU SIGHNED AWAY ALL YOUR RIGHTS

I will say again it realy does not matter if all this tracking really amounts to much or if it is used as a tool to pry deep into our lives, and the worst fears posted on the net become true.

It wont matter becouse a very large amount of MMCs customers will gone just becouse the threat is possible in there eys.You and sertanly not the government will be able to convince them otherwise

Read the comments at the bottem of this Medical marijuana: Health dept. draft rules may not be ready in time for rule-making session - Denver News - The Latest Word (http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2010/12/medical_marijuana_health_department_rules.php)


Wsh I had an answer The time to fight was then

Peace:(

[HighPopalorum]

The thing to consider with all of the responses though, is how people feel about this. Will it effect their spending habits at your MMC? You don't think so?

I'm a privacy-conscious consumer. Here's how I feel:

The devil is in the details. I believe MMC inventories need to have some minimal level of monitoring. A computer program seems to be a good idea. If such a system tracks my purchases in a non-anonymous manner, I'm concerned. On the other hand, I'm secure in my belief that I am not breaking the law so I wouldn't stop buying from dispensaries for that reason alone. If I were ever visited or harassed by a police officer regarding my cannabis purchase history, I would go litigiously ballistic: MMC, Police, DoR would all get a piece.

That being said, I understand MMCs, and not patients, are the investigtory target of the DoR. I'm not worried yet.

[porone]

I'm a privacy-conscious consumer. Here's how I feel:

The devil is in the details. I believe MMC inventories need to have some minimal level of monitoring. A computer program seems to be a good idea. If such a system tracks my purchases in a non-anonymous manner, I'm concerned. On the other hand, I'm secure in my belief that I am not breaking the law so I wouldn't stop buying from dispensaries for that reason alone. If I were ever visited or harassed by a police officer regarding my cannabis purchase history, I would go litigiously ballistic: MMC, Police, DoR would all get a piece.

That being said, I understand MMCs, and not patients, are the investigtory target of the DoR. I'm not worried yet.

You trust the government far more than most people I know.

Thinking about it , I cant think of a reason to trust them at any level.They have proven to me that they are untrustworthy

[TheReleafCenter]

The thing to consider with all of the responses though, is how people feel about this. Will it effect their spending habits at your MMC? You don't think so?

This system isn't even in place yet, no one knows what it looks like or who has access, so the real question is: why is everyone so afraid? And who is driving this fear? It's a powerful motivator, fear.

[TheReleafCenter]

I'm a privacy-conscious consumer. Here's how I feel:

The devil is in the details. I believe MMC inventories need to have some minimal level of monitoring. A computer program seems to be a good idea. If such a system tracks my purchases in a non-anonymous manner, I'm concerned. On the other hand, I'm secure in my belief that I am not breaking the law so I wouldn't stop buying from dispensaries for that reason alone. If I were ever visited or harassed by a police officer regarding my cannabis purchase history, I would go litigiously ballistic: MMC, Police, DoR would all get a piece.

That being said, I understand MMCs, and not patients, are the investigtory target of the DoR. I'm not worried yet.

This, this, and this 100x over.

I didn't even think of tracking simply by MMR# or something else relatively anonymous. I certainly envisioned a system that has automated triggers (buying more than 2 ounces or 6 plants in a day) to catch those abusing the system. Seems much more feasible than having employees watch every MMC transaction in the state.

[porone]

This system isn't even in place yet, no one knows what it looks like or who has access, so the real question is: why is everyone so afraid? And who is driving this fear? It's a powerful motivator, fear.


The media have said that they will film the tranactions, IDs , and maybe fingerprints or whatever.It all goes to a data base to be shared between the fed, state and local agentcies.Nothing good can come from that.Who do you think is realy driving the fear?Its the ones who wnat to shut down 80 percent.They tell the media the media prints.Most cannabis users do not trust the government and they know it.First they take your mony and make you sign away your rights then they scrare your customers away.Im not afraid I keep fighting for my rights Im trying keep as many as possible. I have seen first hand how the CBI DEA and Locals get to gether and how they work.It aint purdy

[porone]

This, this, and this 100x over.

I didn't even think of tracking simply by MMR# or something else relatively anonymous. I certainly envisioned a system that has automated triggers (buying more than 2 ounces or 6 plants in a day) to catch those abusing the system. Seems much more feasible than having employees watch every MMC transaction in the state.

People doing that would get cought soon without the system.I dont think that has ever been much of a problem.They are trying to fix shit that aint broke.Polish a turd to much and it falls apart.Thats what they are doing with the rules pollishing 1284 and 109 both turds

[copobo]

I would have no problem with only the number being tracked.

nothing more than the number and the expiration date of the card is needed.

[TheReleafCenter]

The media have said that they will film the tranactions, IDs , and maybe fingerprints or whatever.It all goes to a data base to be shared between the fed, state and local agentcies.Nothing good can come from that.Who do you think is realy driving the fear?Its the ones who wnat to shut down 80 percent.They tell the media the media prints.Most cannabis users do not trust the government and they know it.First they take your mony and make you sign away your rights then they scrare your customers away.Im not afraid I keep fighting for my rights Im trying keep as many as possible. I have seen first hand how the CBI DEA and Locals get to gether and how they work.It aint purdy

But your transactions are already recorded at most shops. All of them should have your ID. I haven't seen fingerprinting anywhere, if you could source that I'd appreciate it.

No one knows who has database access yet or at what level. And everyone can agree that law enforcement should have 24/7 access.

MMC's are the ones who should be afraid, not patients. You're right, WE signed away our rights. The Fed wants OUR butts if they hate MMJ.

[senorx12562]

You trust the government far more than most people I know.

Thinking about it , I cant think of a reason to trust them at any level.They have proven to me that they are untrustworthy
...and incompetent.

[copobo]

another thing to consider when you think about acceptance of this is the privacy policies of most retailers would not allow this type of information sharing, even about buying normal stuff. Like books or beer or oranges.

Can you imagine if liquor stores thought about having a network to track consumption? Or even ice cream shops? People don't want to be tracked in such a way.

If you want to keep track of valid vs expired or forged cards, just use the number and expiration date.

It seems like a solution looking for a problem to me.

[HighPopalorum]

There's nothing in the presentation to indicate they are going to track consumption or patient purchases, anonymously or otherwise. She says she's going to track dispensaries, growers and infused product manufacturers. They're going to crawl up MMCs' asses, but I see little threat to patient privacy. I see no reason to believe this system will provide the government with any information about me not contained in the registry. The rules for LE checking the registry are not changing, (you must be stopped or arrested for police to check your registry status) but only the method and celerity of the check. Giving them the ability to check 24/7 means patients won't be detained pending a registry check, but can be released quickly without further inconvenience.

I think these concerns are unfounded. Unless there's more to the story than is shown in the presentation, all this talk about tracking patient purchases and medical records, and opening up all of that information to various law enforcement organs has been manufactured out of thin air. This is an IT story about integrating two databases and providing police with a means to check them electronically.

It's good that the ACLU is involved, though. Their lawyers are the best in the nation at what they do, and this topic bears on several of their key issues: medical privacy, drug law reform and the privacy problems presented by technology.

[TheReleafCenter]

another thing to consider when you think about acceptance of this is the privacy policies of most retailers would not allow this type of information sharing, even about buying normal stuff. Like books or beer or oranges.

Can you imagine if liquor stores thought about having a network to track consumption? Or even ice cream shops? People don't want to be tracked in such a way.

If you want to keep track of valid vs expired or forged cards, just use the number and expiration date.

It seems like a solution looking for a problem to me.

Most retailers don't sell a schedule 1 drug. Would you be in favor of leo doing stings at mmcs (similar to liquor stores) instead of a confidential database that tracked you by patient number?

[porone]

Have you read any of the draft rules?

Medical marijuana: See final drafts of documents to regulate Colorado MMJ industry - Denver News - The Latest Word (http://blogs.westword.com/latestword/2010/12/medical_marijuana_final_draft_colorado_regulations .php)

its way out of crontrol

[porone]

page 45 deals with camras on the sale and your ID

[copobo]

Most retailers don't sell a schedule 1 drug. Would you be in favor of leo doing stings at mmcs (similar to liquor stores) instead of a confidential database that tracked you by patient number?

is leo going to start stings at pain clinics? you know, the docs that sling oxy scripts as freely as mj is dispensed at mmcs? that shit will fucken kill you. Cannabis WON'T. We need to keep reminding them of the harmless nature of cannabis. WTF is the need for stings?

It's like tracking peanut butter.

[ThaiBuddhaMan]

Tracking by MMR# would be a good solution.
Before a purchase, a MMC would scan the card, card info gets sent to the MMR, MMR gives the yea/nay, MMC gets the ok on their monitor. I wouldn't want the database to keep purchases for a long period, but maybe 30 days would work. This makes a lot more sense to me.

[TheReleafCenter]

is leo going to start stings at pain clinics? you know, the docs that sling oxy scripts as freely as mj is dispensed at mmcs? that shit will fucken kill you. Cannabis WON'T. We need to keep reminding them of the harmless nature of cannabis. WTF is the need for stings?

It's like tracking peanut butter.

Peanut butter doesn't have a resale value on the street, though. I don't think it's about harm, either. A patient is only allowed to possess two ounces at a time. If someone is buying a pound a day from various MMC's, I think there should be a way to flag them in the system.

@porone: I've read it front to back. It's hard for me to get too worked up over rulemaking sessions, same for the 20 different drafts of 1284. The camera over the sale I believe is just there to verify that the number on the scale is what the MMC is entering into the computer. And once again, everyone is already on camera everywhere they shop.

Once again, what do you think they're going to do with this information? Selectively prosecute you at a federal level for small amounts of cannabis? Leak your name to your insurance company? It all seems far fetched to me.

And once again (again), I'd be much more concerned about a poorly run shop having this information than the Department of Revenue. Poor internet security, a break in or a change in ownership can all lead to your confidential information being released.

[porone]

Releaf
I hope all best for all good MMCs
I have a freind of almost 30 years that owns one

Who really goes to MMCs and buys that much?There is no mony in it.Most rec users can buy high quallity on the street cheaper.Before 1284 that was not as true but it is now

Someone said something about the ACLU
Spying on First Amendment Activity - State-by-State | American Civil Liberties Union (http://www.aclu.org/spy-files/spying-first-amendment-activity-state-state)
Nah the government does not spy on citizens

[TheReleafCenter]

Maybe there aren't a lot of people that buy that much. All the more reason I don't care if they track what I purchase: I'm not breaking the law. Additionally, there are a lot of people out there "shop hopping" and changing over caregiver rights multiple times a day. If you sign up ten centers and get a free eighth a month, that's almost a free pound every year. I get more calls about what we give away for free for signing up today than anything else. That should be monitored.

[senorx12562]

Peanut butter doesn't have a resale value on the street, though. I don't think it's about harm, either. A patient is only allowed to possess two ounces at a time. If someone is buying a pound a day from various MMC's, I think there should be a way to flag them in the system.

@porone: I've read it front to back. It's hard for me to get too worked up over rulemaking sessions, same for the 20 different drafts of 1284. The camera over the sale I believe is just there to verify that the number on the scale is what the MMC is entering into the computer. And once again, everyone is already on camera everywhere they shop.

Once again, what do you think they're going to do with this information? Selectively prosecute you at a federal level for small amounts of cannabis? Leak your name to your insurance company? It all seems far fetched to me.

And once again (again), I'd be much more concerned about a poorly run shop having this information than the Department of Revenue. Poor internet security, a break in or a change in ownership can all lead to your confidential information being released.
That's because peanut butter is regulated as food, not as the most dangerous substance known to man, as cannabis is. I think you are on the wrong side of the chicken/egg problem. It's the regulation that causes the black market, not the black market causing the need for regulation. I'd bet my bottom dollar that peanut butter causes more deaths than cannabis.

[MEDEDCANNABIS]

Couple things. First, you're not held hostage by an MMC, you can visit whoever you want. You may not get the caregiver benefits from the new place, but it is what it is. It's going to encourage people to be more judicious in who they select as their center/caregiver, which is a good thing.

Second, I don't think that this system is designed to go "Wow, John Doe bought an eighth on Monday and then ANOTHER on Friday!" They don't have time to do that. I think they're looking for people who are buying their maximum two ounces from multiple shops, changing their primary caregiver/center all the time, etc. There has to be some safeguard against those kinds of abuses.

Lastly, who do you think is going to release this information? There are steep penalties, not to mention the law suit you'd be able to file. I keep hearing people talk about this list as if it's going to be published in this Sunday's Denver Post. It's all still held confidentially. I'd jump for joy if the state leaked anything related to status as a patient, same for my lawyer.

how nice...you can afford a lawyer. ya know some are sick and distressed, others live off sub-prime incomes...lawyers and courts not going to happen. the simple fact is this...IT SHOULDNT BE ILLEGAL AT ALL. shop hoppers can go broke buying meds but obviously they make more money than i or the aforementioned. this is humanity, everybody out for themselves.

[SoCoMMJ]

The problem with "Shop Hoppers" is not the bargains that they receive. It is the exposure to being over plant count when they don't let you know that they changed to another center.

MMC's, and caregivers for that matter, have no means to verify their plant counts other than the patient's word.

It's fairly dicey to gamble a prison stint based on somebody's desire to get a free gram.

[copobo]

they should simply disconnect the plant counts via patients for mmc's paying their fees. Besides the caregiver hopping, I think the patient hording is bad for patients. The centers should concentrate on the patients and the 1284 regs.

patients and caregivers are a private relationship.

what will happen when significant responsibility for the well being of a patient includes things the mmc can't do? Those counts are tied to being a caregiver!

[copobo]

editorial from: Proper pot rules and an overreach - Boulder Daily Camera (http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_16828223)

"Nonsense: The Colorado Department of Revenue`s Medical Marijuana Advisory Board has included in its proposal for regulations an idea to have the entire registry of medical marijuana users available to law enforcement 24/7. Considering that marijuana use is still illegal under federal law, we urge the state to dump this suggestion. We`re not talking about people in custody, someone who has crashed their car, or people who have been caught with marijuana who need to have the legality of their usage checked with the state: We`re talking about everyone. This flies in the face of the intent of the constitutional law. Law-abiding Coloradans are entitled to keep their health information private."

unfortunately they also like the DUI one. go make comment!

[porone]

This system isn't even in place yet, no one knows what it looks like or who has access, so the real question is: why is everyone so afraid? And who is driving this fear? It's a powerful motivator, fear.

why is everyone so afraid? And who is driving this fear? It's a powerful motivator, fear.

Stories like the one posted above

They will keep fix n it till broke

[TurboALLWD]

why is everyone so afraid? And who is driving this fear? It's a powerful motivator, fear.

Stories like the one posted above

They will keep fix n it till broke


Yeah relief must feel nice and cozy behind their lawyers.

[CannnaLady]

Thank You Releaf Center!
I am a dispensary center...not too far from you. But thank you for speaking your opinions from a MMC stand point. Everything you said I agree with 100% I think a lot of people don't realize what our lives are like. I don't think they know what our overhead is, what we deal with day to day and how much we have sacrificed. If dispensaries don't have quality meds then they will be shutting down soon and some already have.
People are able to get up in the morning in their pajamas and walk to a MMC and get grass, I would have KILLED for this when I was a young prat. People don't even know what they have!
Even in Amsterdam the cops come barging in, I don't think people know this. I was sitting in the gray area one time and the cops came raiding and gave them a ticket just for having the door propped open.
There's only so much complaining you can do when you are allowed to smoke and posess for free, I don't get it. Yeah I agree that it's an invasion of privacy and what not...but still! IT'S LEGAL.
And you can thank the private home grown caregivers that were growing and not paying sales tax for HB 1284...thanks a lot!

anyways, I just wanted to say that I have customers that are your patients and they always have good things to say about you. I am glad you are hear letting the MMJ Community know what it's like from a MMC standpoint. I've been stressed out for a year and have had about 3 days off. You also had a great review on the westword-keep it up!

[canaguy27]

And you can thank the private home grown caregivers that were growing and not paying sales tax for HB 1284...thanks a lot!


Um...No. We can thank you and all the other mmcs for 1284. Caregivers were doing just fine before you opened shop. Funny how fast you forgot that little detail. It was the mmcs who supported CMMR who bent over for Romer and friends that got 1284 passed.

The sad part is that mmcs have dug their own grave by allowing the state to walk all over them. Most patients I talk to are NOT RENEWING their card. Why give the state $90 for NOTHING. So no card = no mmc sales. They went too far and you allowed them. Most of you will be closed within a year, and caregivers will continue on.

[COzigzag]

The problem with "Shop Hoppers" is not the bargains that they receive. It is the exposure to being over plant count when they don't let you know that they changed to another center.

MMC's, and caregivers for that matter, have no means to verify their plant counts other than the patient's word.

It's fairly dicey to gamble a prison stint based on somebody's desire to get a free gram.

^^ This exactly!

[porone]

Um...No. We can thank you and all the other mmcs for 1284. Caregivers were doing just fine before you opened shop. Funny how fast you forgot that little detail. It was the mmcs who supported CMMR who bent over for Romer and friends that got 1284 passed.

The sad part is that mmcs have dug their own grave by allowing the state to walk all over them. Most patients I talk to are NOT RENEWING their card. Why give the state $90 for NOTHING. So no card = no mmc sales. They went too far and you allowed them. Most of you will be closed within a year, and caregivers will continue on.

This is exactly right.

MMCs better fight now while they can most of the people they depend on will not be there in a year or so.

Red cards are not required exept at MMCs

[MtnLionCO]

Thank You Releaf Center!
I am a dispensary center...not too far from you. But thank you for speaking your opinions from a MMC stand point. Everything you said I agree with 100% I think a lot of people don't realize what our lives are like. I don't think they know what our overhead is, what we deal with day to day and how much we have sacrificed. If dispensaries don't have quality meds then they will be shutting down soon and some already have.
People are able to get up in the morning in their pajamas and walk to a MMC and get grass, I would have KILLED for this when I was a young prat. People don't even know what they have!
Even in Amsterdam the cops come barging in, I don't think people know this. I was sitting in the gray area one time and the cops came raiding and gave them a ticket just for having the door propped open.
There's only so much complaining you can do when you are allowed to smoke and posess for free, I don't get it. Yeah I agree that it's an invasion of privacy and what not...but still! IT'S LEGAL.
And you can thank the private home grown caregivers that were growing and not paying sales tax for HB 1284...thanks a lot!

anyways, I just wanted to say that I have customers that are your patients and they always have good things to say about you. I am glad you are hear letting the MMJ Community know what it's like from a MMC standpoint. I've been stressed out for a year and have had about 3 days off. You also had a great review on the westword-keep it up!

thanks for your honesty, i have more reason to stay away MMCs, i am starting to believe they are all evil.

[Zedleppelin]

Thank You Releaf Center!
I am a dispensary center...not too far from you. But thank you for speaking your opinions from a MMC stand point. Everything you said I agree with 100% I think a lot of people don't realize what our lives are like. I don't think they know what our overhead is, what we deal with day to day and how much we have sacrificed. If dispensaries don't have quality meds then they will be shutting down soon and some already have.
People are able to get up in the morning in their pajamas and walk to a MMC and get grass, I would have KILLED for this when I was a young prat. People don't even know what they have!
Even in Amsterdam the cops come barging in, I don't think people know this. I was sitting in the gray area one time and the cops came raiding and gave them a ticket just for having the door propped open.
There's only so much complaining you can do when you are allowed to smoke and posess for free, I don't get it. Yeah I agree that it's an invasion of privacy and what not...but still! IT'S LEGAL.



Thanks for quitting your Walmart job to do society such a favor, you should change your name to Mother 'CannaLady' Theresa.




And you can thank the private home grown caregivers that were growing and not paying sales tax for HB 1284...thanks a lot!


If your dispensary ever fails you have a bright future ahead of you as a stand up comedian, or in your case comedienne.

[Stickybooger]

Thank You Releaf Center!
I am a dispensary center...not too far from you. But thank you for speaking your opinions from a MMC stand point. Everything you said I agree with 100% I think a lot of people don't realize what our lives are like. I don't think they know what our overhead is, what we deal with day to day and how much we have sacrificed. If dispensaries don't have quality meds then they will be shutting down soon and some already have.
People are able to get up in the morning in their pajamas and walk to a MMC and get grass, I would have KILLED for this when I was a young prat. People don't even know what they have!
Even in Amsterdam the cops come barging in, I don't think people know this. I was sitting in the gray area one time and the cops came raiding and gave them a ticket just for having the door propped open.
There's only so much complaining you can do when you are allowed to smoke and posess for free, I don't get it. Yeah I agree that it's an invasion of privacy and what not...but still! IT'S LEGAL.
And you can thank the private home grown caregivers that were growing and not paying sales tax for HB 1284...thanks a lot!

anyways, I just wanted to say that I have customers that are your patients and they always have good things to say about you. I am glad you are hear letting the MMJ Community know what it's like from a MMC standpoint. I've been stressed out for a year and have had about 3 days off. You also had a great review on the westword-keep it up!

Mmm I think the MMC's blatant neon pot leaf signs (billboards, radio adds, so on) popping up every where is what sprung the public outcry for regulation, not so much the caregiver.
Every business has overhead. Taxes can be brutal, licensing fees on and on. To think people can't relate to overhead is absurd. MMC's have it tough but there's profit in it if there wasn't you wouldn't be doing what your doing. Any type of business that doesn't put out quality is at risk of shutting down.
We're not in Amsterdam and your referencing coffee shops not MMC's, I think there's a difference.
I'm not sure what you meant by smoke and possess for free? Are you giving your med's away?
I understand what you're saying about the complaining. People overnight have become connoisseurs, not, and want to complain about quality meds that they may not have been able to obtain in the recent past thanks to the above ground market available today. We are spoiled. I have just recently read a few paragraphs of complaining from an MMC owner myself, just above this response.
You made the choice to do what you are doing. You made the choice to sign your rights away.
At this point I wouldn't really call MMJ legal. There are still consequences.
I also would like to comment on this term MMJ community, this would suck if this were true but I'm starting to feel this is separating into two, MMC community and MMJ community (caregiver/patient). This would be detrimental to the community as a whole.
I am a patient and have no hard feelings towards MMC's. I also have no hard feeling toward CannaLady, I have no reason to believe she isn't a stand up person with a good heart. I know what stress can do to a person. Although am really over the piss on the little guy mentality, this is a problem everywhere not just with MMJ. Life can be hard, we should be lifting each other up not pissing on one another.:wtf3::)

[ds0110]

Thank You Releaf Center!
I am a dispensary center...not too far from you. But thank you for speaking your opinions from a MMC stand point. Everything you said I agree with 100% I think a lot of people don't realize what our lives are like. I don't think they know what our overhead is, what we deal with day to day and how much we have sacrificed. If dispensaries don't have quality meds then they will be shutting down soon and some already have.
People are able to get up in the morning in their pajamas and walk to a MMC and get grass, I would have KILLED for this when I was a young prat. People don't even know what they have!
Even in Amsterdam the cops come barging in, I don't think people know this. I was sitting in the gray area one time and the cops came raiding and gave them a ticket just for having the door propped open.
There's only so much complaining you can do when you are allowed to smoke and posess for free, I don't get it. Yeah I agree that it's an invasion of privacy and what not...but still! IT'S LEGAL.
<b>And you can thank the private home grown caregivers that were growing and not paying sales tax for HB 1284</b>...thanks a lot!

Its only been medical for ~10 years. Many people do remember going to jail for simple possession. Prohibition is all around CO, CO just happens to be the oasis in the desert of prohibition. Move one state over, in almost any direction (especially texas) and see what the state of matters on mmj is there. I think a big part of this fear is that people fully understand how bad it could be, and we want to do everything we can to keep it from being that way again. We fought long and hard for this, and now is when they are trying to take it away because we are closer than ever to winning this war.

Its not legal at all. Legal would be if everyone is allowed to grow as much as they want. Like grapes. Thats legal. What is in place now is tolerance at best. Actual real legalization is a ways off, in any state in USA. The war has not been won.

In HB1284, the only part where caregivers are mentioned is relating to co-ops and multiple caregivers growing under the same space. What does that have to do with sales tax? The whole rest of the bill, or at least the other 90% of it was directly related to dispensaries. Dispensaries, which CO voters did not vote for, and the constitution does not provide protection for. So if the bill is by far mostly regulating dispensaries, how was that caused by caregivers? Id say it was caused directly because of dispensaries. Can the state even collect taxes on something that is federally illegal?


Why should it be illegal to possess excess amounts of something that is harmless? You could kill yourself with water faster than you could with mj. Its medicine. Its good for us. Let us have it.

[TheReleafCenter]

@CannaLady: Thanks for the kind words, and I apologize on behalf of some of the other forum members for their rude responses. Most of the posts on here are tempered and well thought out. I'm sorry you experienced the less savory side of can com.


Yeah relief must feel nice and cozy behind their lawyers.

Really? Rob Corry will represent any one of you free of charge. I'm still not sure what charges those consist of. Trust me, you'll find representation if the state releases your medical info.


The sad part is that mmcs have dug their own grave by allowing the state to walk all over them. Most patients I talk to are NOT RENEWING their card. Why give the state $90 for NOTHING. So no card = no mmc sales. They went too far and you allowed them. Most of you will be closed within a year, and caregivers will continue on.

We'll see. The black market is great right now, but for how long?


Red cards are not required exept at MMCs

Most caregivers should verify you have your red card. It's also necessary if you're caught in possession.


Thanks for quitting your Walmart job to do society such a favor, you should change your name to Mother 'CannaLady' Theresa.

Great to see you elevating the level of discourse here, Zed. SMH.


I also would like to comment on this term MMJ community, this would suck if this were true but I'm starting to feel this is separating into two, MMC community and MMJ community (caregiver/patient). This would be detrimental to the community as a whole.

I concur, although I think a lot of the anger that we hear online is because it's the internet. It's the perfect place to opt out of discussion and be incendiary. Participating in the process is much more difficult and time consuming. And when MMC's don't get everything the community wants, we're labeled as Benedict Arnold's for participating.

When I was talking about the caregiver ban in Denver, I asked everyone on the board to talk about what they wanted to see happen. To collectively determine what our goals were. Needless to say, the thread died as quick as it started.

I'm not sure it's as simple as MMC's vs Patients/Caregivers, though. I think a more accurate description would be those for regulation and those for outright legalization.

Those on the regulation side are willing to concede that A20 wasn't perfect, that there will be some sacrifices, but ultimately we're participating in the first state sanctioned and regulated medical marijuana program that allows us to purchase a variety of cannabis products in a safe environment. They don't fear federal prosecution because they don't plan on committing a federal crime.

Those on the legalization side don't see why a damn near harmless plant should be regulated more than alcohol or tobacco, are worried about their private medical information being made available and see a caregiver model as viable. They are vehemently opposed to any changes to A20 and believe that it should be the final say on medical marijuana.

[HighPopalorum]

I disagree with that dichotomy, Releaf. Regulation vs legalization? The two go hand in hand. Legal marijuana is going to be regulated in this country, as sure as cigarettes, lettuce, alcohol and Claritin are. The regulations MMCs face now are the same kinds of regulations MJ retailers will face when it is legalized.

It is important MMCs be closely monitored, and present a squeaky-clean image and retail experience; the rest of the state and the nation are watching us to see the results of our experiment. Although I value the ability to shop from a caregiver or grow my own, MMCs are the public face of this industry, so I would hate to see them bloodied by the media. All eyes are on us, and if the Reps and the various others manage to destroy MMCs, it will set back legalization in this state. Very tight regulation of MMCs is appropriate during this sensitive period; they need to be on their best behaviour just now. (The few MMC operators I know seem to understand this.) Safe, crime-free, well-regulated MMCs are the most convincing evidence that legalization on a broader scale can work.

Again, regulation and legalization are not mutually-exclusive positions. Good regulation, rather, is a necessary step toward legalization.

[TheReleafCenter]

I agree completely. My point was that the schism is present in the community. It seems that a majority of the comment comes in on one side or the other.

I still believe that the average patient falls into the regulation side and not the more "libertarian" (for lack of a better term), hands off my herb side. Does that make more sense?

[HighPopalorum]

It makes perfect sense, and I agree with your assessment of the average patient.

If there's a schism, it's between people who favor legalization and those who oppose it, not between activists. Much of what we see (and what we all occasionally post) on this forum is internet wingnut bombast, rather than an indication of a schism dividing opinion within the MJ activist community. All of the policymakers and most of the stakeholders I've spoken with are divided not over whether MJ will be regulated, but on what form that regulation will take, what the right regulations are, and what is the minimal level of regulation that will ensure patient safety and orderly industry growth. There are a lot of opinions. There will be always be a fringe opposing all regulation, but they are to be dismissed as isolated cases... not elevated to "schism status." Either way, we're substantively in agreement.

[SprngsCaregiver]

Really? Rob Corry will represent any one of you free of charge. I'm still not sure what charges those consist of. Trust me, you'll find representation if the state releases your medical info.


Didn't Rob Corry also say he was going to fight 1284 in court because it was unconstitutional? :rolleyes:

[TheReleafCenter]

It makes perfect sense, and I agree with your assessment of the average patient.

If there's a schism, it's between people who favor legalization and those who oppose it, not between activists. Much of what we see (and what we all occasionally post) on this forum is internet wingnut bombast, rather than an indication of a schism dividing opinion within the MJ activist community. All of the policymakers and most of the stakeholders I've spoken with are divided not over whether MJ will be regulated, but on what form that regulation will take, what the right regulations are, and what is the minimal level of regulation that will ensure patient safety and orderly industry growth. There are a lot of opinions. There will be always be a fringe opposing all regulation, but they are to be dismissed as isolated cases... not elevated to "schism status." Either way, we're substantively in agreement.

Maybe I'm too far down the rabbit hole. Between SAFER, NORML, CTI, Sensible, COMMR, MMIG, the Marijuana Party, et al, I rarely see activists discussing common ground where there would appear to be a great deal. I suppose you're correct, though... there will always be the fringe.


Didn't Rob Corry also say he was going to fight 1284 in court because it was unconstitutional?

Rob did represent Lacy Lee, free of charge as far as I can tell, and she was acquitted last week. If you're looking for Rob to overturn 1284, that's going to take money. They also said they were going to work with Matt Cook to see if he could implement fixes to 1284. Since those rules aren't in place yet, maybe they're holding off and using some discretion instead of hitting the panic button?

[senorx12562]

It makes perfect sense, and I agree with your assessment of the average patient.

If there's a schism, it's between people who favor legalization and those who oppose it, not between activists. Much of what we see (and what we all occasionally post) on this forum is internet wingnut bombast, rather than an indication of a schism dividing opinion within the MJ activist community. All of the policymakers and most of the stakeholders I've spoken with are divided not over whether MJ will be regulated, but on what form that regulation will take, what the right regulations are, and what is the minimal level of regulation that will ensure patient safety and orderly industry growth. There are a lot of opinions. There will be always be a fringe opposing all regulation, but they are to be dismissed as isolated cases... not elevated to "schism status." Either way, we're substantively in agreement.
Your implication that those for whom freedom is a top priority are on some "fringe" or "isolated cases" is condescending, arrogant and insulting, though perfectly consistent with most of the posts of yours I've seen thus far. I am not willing to trade freedom (in this case to grow or ingest what I want to) for the protection of the government. FROM the government maybe. I can and will take care of me and mine, and did not and will not ask for help from anyone else, especially via the government.

[HighPopalorum]

Sorry your feelings were hurt. It wasn't my intention to insult.

[canniwhatsis]

Can the state even collect taxes on something that is federally illegal?

In this case I believe the answer is YES, which puts me in a conundrum,.....


Come Tax season,..... do I claim my gross income from my patients even tho I haven't filed a DBA? Nor do I have a tax license.

YTD my "Profits" (Gross) are a whopping $300

I've actually made about $-1700 YTD on this little venture I happened to FALL into! :mad: I won't bore you with the background.

Tho there's a slow recovery, and promising future (So long as the tick turds on capital hill don't screw me first, and they are trying! :mad: )

One can claim "Hobbies" on they're taxes,... and thats how this started, and is STILL the level I'm on, even tho I'm in the "registry" listed as a caregiver.


None the less when I file, it's gonna go to the feds too right? :wtf:

How the F does that work out? :wtf:




Back on main topic,.... I think? :stoned:

Under A20 the patient has the right to choose they're Caregiver.

Seems to me that some of the new legislations are trying to define "Caregiver" as more like a "NP", My growing the meds that greatly improve the quality of life for my patients is now no longer enough? and I have to be a Cook and private Chauffeur too? :wtf:


Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong,.... and drop me Robb Corry's # too,.... I have a feeling I might need him in the future since I really don't want to cut all my girls down and have to tell my patients they have to go to MMC's :(

No Offence Relief, but my patients can't afford MMC prices for what they need.

[TheReleafCenter]

Ok, you bring up some good points in there. Let me see if I can clarify a couple things.

The legislature, via HB1284, asked the CDPHE for more feedback on what constitutes a caregiver. I'm not sure if I posted here, but the CDPHE then asked for feedback from the community. That comment period, I believe, has closed. Still waiting on word of what a caregiver means, but previous attempts to add wellness services etc have failed miserably in the past (both at the CDPHE and in court).

When they talk about not charging over cost, there are many ways to keep your costs wherever they are. You can charge for your time (whatever you feel it's worth), the amount of space you use for cultivation relative to your mortgage/rent, etc. You can say a prayer for their bag and charge for that. It's very open to interpretation.

Jessica is probably the easier Corry to contact: 303-260-6475. I take no offense at all, canniwhatsis. We've lobbied to keep caregivers free from additional services, to stop caregiver bans in Denver and more. I wish there were more caregivers out there and patients had better access to them. They're a vital part of this community and often do some of the hardest work for the least financial reward. We need more people like that.

[TheReleafCenter]

Your implication that those for whom freedom is a top priority are on some "fringe" or "isolated cases" is condescending, arrogant and insulting, though perfectly consistent with most of the posts of yours I've seen thus far. I am not willing to trade freedom (in this case to grow or ingest what I want to) for the protection of the government. FROM the government maybe. I can and will take care of me and mine, and did not and will not ask for help from anyone else, especially via the government.

Shouldn't people be protected from ingesting harmful substances? What do you think the government should have the right to protect you from?

[porone]

Shouldn't people be protected from ingesting harmful substances? What do you think the government should have the right to protect you from?

People can protect them selfs.Only crybaby sheeple would want to be told what how what and when.

Maybe the government should stick to protecting us from foreign enimies.The southern border might nead a little attention too.

People nead protection From the government

Those who sell tainted mj dont sell it for long nobody wants it.

Anything the government gets involved in ends up a mess.More government bigger mess

[Zedleppelin]

Shouldn't people be protected from ingesting harmful substances? What do you think the government should have the right to protect you from?

One could argue that a big mac is a harmful substance, a soda, deodorant, cell phones, and the list goes on and on.

1 in 2 people will develop cancer sometime in their lives whereas 50 years ago it was 1 in 10 (yet more than 50% of the population smoked cigarettes), diabetes is now an epidemic and just about every other major disease is striking a higher percentage of the population. Doesnt appear the govts attempt to protect us is working at all. But hey, at least the medical and pharmaceutical industries are making record profits.

The problem with our government is it works in the interest of those in a position of money and power, not the people it supposedly represents. Marijuana is a perfect example, it has been and still is labeled as a harmful substance by people with an interest in private prisons, alcohol companies, pharmaceutical companies, etc. and millions of lives have been ruined by the govt 'protecting us' from it.

1284 was created for many reasons and the least of it was to protect or benefit consumers.

[TheReleafCenter]

One could argue that a big mac is a harmful substance, a soda, deodorant, cell phones, and the list goes on and on.

1 in 2 people will develop cancer sometime in their lives whereas 50 years ago it was 1 in 10 (yet more than 50% of the population smoked cigarettes), diabetes is now an epidemic and just about every other major disease is striking a higher percentage of the population. Doesnt appear the govts attempt to protect us is working at all. But hey, at least the medical and pharmaceutical industries are making record profits.

The problem with our government is it works in the interest of those in a position of money and power, not the people it supposedly represents. Marijuana is a perfect example, it has been and still is labeled as a harmful substance by people with an interest in private prisons, alcohol companies, pharmaceutical companies, etc. and millions of lives have been ruined by the govt 'protecting us' from it.

1284 was created for many reasons and the least of it was to protect or benefit consumers.

So the government should protect us, but it can't because of money and power?

[copobo]

Shouldn't people be protected from ingesting harmful substances? What do you think the government should have the right to protect you from?

we certainly don't need to be regulating marijuana any more than we do fruits and vegetables in this regard.

marijuana isn't especially harmful, requiring special regulation for health and safety. in fact, it's especially un-harmful. We just don't need to be pretending we are doing the right thing, regulating it like it's cocaine, when it's just cannabis.

cannabis is as safe as mothers milk.

[Stickybooger]

we certainly don't need to be regulating marijuana any more than we do fruits and vegetables in this regard.

marijuana isn't especially harmful, requiring special regulation for health and safety. in fact, it's especially un-harmful. We just don't need to be pretending we are doing the right thing, regulating it like it's cocaine, when it's just cannabis.

cannabis is as safe as mothers milk.

:thumbsup:

[senorx12562]

I don't subscribe to most of the conspiracy theories you will read about on these forums and others. To be effective would require of the conspirators an efficiency and competency that government rarely if ever displays. I do however believe that government employees eventually seek to preserve and expand their own power base, at the expense of their original remit.

I also am a firm believer in the law of unintended consequences, by which the actions of government tend to have consequences that were unforeseen, and often make the "cure" worse than the "disease." In this case, clearly (to me at least) unadulterated marijuana is not dangerous enough to justify any regulation whatsoever. With respect to possible adulterants, without the rewards inherent in trafficking in a black market substance (which marijuana still is under the current regulatory scheme because of the "medical" sham) there would be no reason to use any such adulterants to stimulate growth or kill pests. Once again, an example of the law of unintended consequences.

[TheReleafCenter]

we certainly don't need to be regulating marijuana any more than we do fruits and vegetables in this regard.

marijuana isn't especially harmful, requiring special regulation for health and safety. in fact, it's especially un-harmful. We just don't need to be pretending we are doing the right thing, regulating it like it's cocaine, when it's just cannabis.

cannabis is as safe as mothers milk.

But if this is truly medical marijuana, shouldn't it be tracked like any other medication? We don't allow people to make pharmaceuticals in their homes and distribute them, regardless of how safe they are.

If you're talking about legalization, I think you make a fair point. I just feel like at this point we're muddling the two.


I don't subscribe to most of the conspiracy theories you will read about on these forums and others. To be effective would require of the conspirators an efficiency and competency that government rarely if ever displays. I do however believe that government employees eventually seek to preserve and expand their own power base, at the expense of their original remit.

I also am a firm believer in the law of unintended consequences, by which the actions of government tend to have consequences that were unforeseen, and often make the "cure" worse than the "disease." In this case, clearly (to me at least) unadulterated marijuana is not dangerous enough to justify any regulation whatsoever. With respect to possible adulterants, without the rewards inherent in trafficking in a black market substance (which marijuana still is under the current regulatory scheme because of the "medical" sham) there would be no reason to use any such adulterants to stimulate growth or kill pests. Once again, an example of the law of unintended consequences.

I disagree with you on stimulating growth, but let's turn the law of unintended consequences on it's head. If you remove marijuana from the black market, do we see a rise in illicit, highly addictive drugs? An increase in border violence as cartels struggle to retain power? I certainly wouldn't use either of these as arguments against legalization, anymore than say... a repeal of DADT may make some people uncomfortable, because it's the right thing to do. Unintended consequences are funny like that, though.

Should the government allow use of other relatively harmless substances, like LSD or mushrooms? MDMA? Do they have the right to tell you to wear your seatbelt? That you can't yell fire in a movie theater?

Just trying to get some bearings on where you're coming from.

[copobo]

But if this is truly medical marijuana, shouldn't it be tracked like any other medication? We don't allow people to make pharmaceuticals in their homes and distribute them, regardless of how safe they are.

If you're talking about legalization, I think you make a fair point. I just feel like at this point we're muddling the two.


just because it's 'medical' marijuana doesn't change the nature of it being cannabis. the regulation is all about the money, not safety.

[ds0110]

But if this is truly medical marijuana, shouldn't it be tracked like any other medication? We don't allow people to make pharmaceuticals in their homes and distribute them, regardless of how safe they are.

If you want to make fish oil or vitamin c, im sure there is no problem. Mj is more natural than both of those.



I disagree with you on stimulating growth, but let's turn the law of unintended consequences on it's head. If you remove marijuana from the black market, do we see a rise in illicit, highly addictive drugs? An increase in border violence as cartels struggle to retain power? I certainly wouldn't use either of these as arguments against legalization, anymore than say... a repeal of DADT may make some people uncomfortable, because it's the right thing to do. Unintended consequences are funny like that, though.

Should the government allow use of other relatively harmless substances, like LSD or mushrooms? MDMA? Do they have the right to tell you to wear your seatbelt? That you can't yell fire in a movie theater?

Just trying to get some bearings on where you're coming from.

YES, prohibition does not work. You got it. On anything. It only causes a black market which in turn causes violence. It creates and enables al capone and the mexican drug cartels. It does not decrease the supply, and actually if you look at the past 30-40 years, supply under prohibition has increased. Yes, this applies to all drugs. So making them legal isnt going to increase availability. If anything it will make it harder to buy these drugs, since youll need a license to purchase. (like how liquor is harder for a minor to buy than heroin) You can never eliminate drug use, as there has never been a 100% sober society in the history of mankind. What they need is to take all this money they spend on the drug war and use it on drug education and rehabilitation. Free needle exchange. Free hard drugs but the addict has to stay at the facility for a month out of the year and sober up. Cartels/Black market dies immediately, violence goes down, etc. Border violence is about control and debts, both of which are gone if the profits are eliminated. Its not about the drug, its about the money/profits. Society would not crumble from people getting too high, as drugs would be less available and less profitable under legalization. They would become boring.

Yelling fire in a theatre infringes upon other peoples peace, and therefore should get you kicked out. But its just speech, and should not be illegal.

[HighPopalorum]

I'm of the 'fruits and vegetables' mindset as well. Cannabis should be regulated as other products made for human consumption are: testing and inspection at every stage of production, strict controls on chemicals and additives, honesty-in-labeling requirements, unannounced inspections at retail sales locations. Like restaurants and other businesses there should be local and state licensing. Like restaurants, MMCs that sell contaminated cannabis should be warned, fined, and eventually permanently closed. Like produce, only commercial products should be regulated. (No regulation for non-commercial growers.)

However, I realize that MMJ is following a different regulatory pathway, closer to that of pharmaceutical regulation than food. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think we'll see a shift when it is re-legalized.

[TheReleafCenter]

just because it's 'medical' marijuana doesn't change the nature of it being cannabis. the regulation is all about the money, not safety.

But observation isn't how we approve any other form of state recognized medicine. It seems like a few of you are compartmentalizing cannabis and how it should be treated, and I suppose that's understandable. It's a plant we love and it's unfairly demonized.

[GratefulMeds]

I wonder how many patients are going to leave the registry with these new proposals? If what I read is right, the patients picture, transactions including the amount of medicine purchased and the frequency of purchases will be captured on video and also entered into the database, I doubt if many patients will be willing to put their private lives under such scrutiny. I bet we see a lot more lobbying by these centers to make this a more patient friendly system or they will probably end up all shutting down. Hmm, I wonder

Again this is all part of the plan (To shut down 90% of the shops that were open back then, 2009) and this is just some more sweeping up for them, they let you think they over looked this or that. But as you see as soon as they noticed another way to make it more difficult and just not worth the cost and hassle to do business for centers they pull something out of their hats to make it so.
This is the worst infringement yet on the State Constitution and amendment 20 as written in 2000. almost 3/4 of that amendment talks about the registry and the need for it's confidentiality and how to enact this and ensure that it was and to talk about penalties for violating that confidentiality.
This is the oppositions "Holy Grail" (folks like Suthers, Romer and such) if they are able to pull this off the program (MMJ caregiver/patient program through the Health Dept.) is effectively destroyed, you constitutional right that was fought so hard for back in the 90's.
It most definitely takes out most of the Centers! remember folks we are competing over customers that are registered which right now makes up 2% of the States Population, for the centers to survive this percentage must increase. Even something as little as a .5 % drop in registry patients would take out many more shops. again seems to all be part of their plan.
(I'll take off my tin foil hat now and sign off):mad::wtf::wtf:

[GratefulMeds]

editorial from: Proper pot rules and an overreach - Boulder Daily Camera (http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_16828223)

"Nonsense: The Colorado Department of Revenue`s Medical Marijuana Advisory Board has included in its proposal for regulations an idea to have the entire registry of medical marijuana users available to law enforcement 24/7. Considering that marijuana use is still illegal under federal law, we urge the state to dump this suggestion. We`re not talking about people in custody, someone who has crashed their car, or people who have been caught with marijuana who need to have the legality of their usage checked with the state: We`re talking about everyone. This flies in the face of the intent of the constitutional law. Law-abiding Coloradans are entitled to keep their health information private."

unfortunately they also like the DUI one. go make comment!

I couldn't agree more!:stoned:

[senorx12562]

But if this is truly medical marijuana, shouldn't it be tracked like any other medication? We don't allow people to make pharmaceuticals in their homes and distribute them, regardless of how safe they are.

If you're talking about legalization, I think you make a fair point. I just feel like at this point we're muddling the two.



I disagree with you on stimulating growth, but let's turn the law of unintended consequences on it's head. If you remove marijuana from the black market, do we see a rise in illicit, highly addictive drugs? An increase in border violence as cartels struggle to retain power? I certainly wouldn't use either of these as arguments against legalization, anymore than say... a repeal of DADT may make some people uncomfortable, because it's the right thing to do. Unintended consequences are funny like that, though.

Should the government allow use of other relatively harmless substances, like LSD or mushrooms? MDMA? Do they have the right to tell you to wear your seatbelt? That you can't yell fire in a movie theater?

Just trying to get some bearings on where you're coming from.
Yes, I believe that ALL drugs should be legal for any adult without a prescription. The consequences of their illegality are just too much worse for society as a whole than if they are legal to justify their prohibition, especially in light of the ineffectiveness of prohibition at keeping substances out of peoples hands. That is as a matter of policy. As a matter of morality, I believe it is absolutely immoral to attempt to enforce through violence or the threat thereof, which is government's only tool, my ideas or anyone else's about what someone else should put in their body. Unlike ds0110, I don't believe it should be subsidized though.

As to yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre, that is merely an example given by Oliver Wendell Holmes as to when the Government is justified in punishing speech even in light of the first amendment. That exception to "freedom of speech" was justified because of the danger to the rest of the people in the theatre from the resulting stampede of people trying to get out. My right to throw a punch without punishment ends at the tip of your nose.

[canaguy27]

Again this is all part of the plan (To shut down 90% of the shops that were open back then, 2009)

I am glad at least one MMC can see this. What is sad is that people are pouring their life savings into this business are will be crushed by the state.

[porone]

I am glad at least one MMC can see this. What is sad is that people are pouring their life savings into this business are will be crushed by the state.

I think they can see it.

They are in hopes that maybe most of the posters here are the fringe :wtf: time will tell

Most dont want MMCs to close but from what Ive seen it does not look good.People will find any way they can to skirt around 1284 and that will mean letting MMCs die

[canaguy27]

Most dont want MMCs to close but from what Ive seen it does not look good.

The market effect alone is killing most of them.

[GratefulMeds]

The market effect alone is killing most of them.

That's right they create an environment where the margins are so low, the risk/ reward ratio doesn't look so good anymore, and it will be hard for many to survive just on the fact that margins are so low and the upfront and operating cost have become so high and restrictive.:wtf:

[canaguy27]

My friend in the Springs saw a shop with $100 ounces:icon506:

[SoCoMMJ]

My friend in the Springs saw a shop with $100 ounces:icon506:

Did they have to break apart the MexiBrick and sort out the seeds ? :)

[canaguy27]

Did they have to break apart the MexiBrick and sort out the seeds ? :)

Not at all. He said the quality was a decent B grade.

[copobo]

cali outdoor is pretty cheap for what it is.