Leaves turning brown, drying and dying.

[Slevinkal]

What is your experience level? (first timer, novice, experienced...)
Smart N00B :D

Your Equipment:
.1) Type and wattage of lights. (MH, HPS, CFL's, tube fluorescents, LED's)
T8 Fluoro 4x32w, 4x60w CFL - All @ 2700K

.2) Distance from tops?
3 inches/scrog

.3) Reflector type? (cool tube set-up, bat wing, enclosed reflector, bare bulb...)
2 double bulb 4' fixtures mounted in a hood I built. The fixtures themselves have a brushed chrome finish and the hood hangs down another 2" and is painted flat white.

.4) Is there a consistent fresh air supply?
Yes

.5) Do you have an exhaust fan and a circulation fan?
2x exhaust and yes

.6) What are the bulb wattages, kelvin ratings, and schedule?
32 and 60 watt, 2700k, 12/12

Your medium:
.7) Specific brand and type of soil, (coco, peat based soilless...) and anything you've added to it. (vermiculite, perlite, worm castings...)
FoxFarms Ocean Forest

.8) Size of container.
3 gallon

.9) Did you use peat pucks (or similar) to root clones or germinate seedlings?
Yes

Your nutrients and water:
10) Source of water? (tap, bottled or filtered) What's it's ph before adjusting?
Gassed out tap when water/molasses, bottled when water/nute. Pre and Post pH debatable, more on this in a bit.

11) Method of checking water ph. (ph pen, test strips, aquarium test kit...)
El-cheapo 3way tester from HD and now a Milwaukee pH600.

12) Method of adjusting water ph. (phosphoric acid, white vinegar, hydrated lime, PH Up...)
Started adjusting with vinegar, used maybe three times, been adjusting for a while now with pH down.

13) Specific brand and N-P-K ratio for each bottle. List dosages (quantity per gallon) and current feeding schedule.
FoxFarms Big Bloom at 3/4 strength @ every other watering.

14) How often are you watering between feedings, and how much per watering?
water/feed/water/feed and so on. 3 quarts per water/feed, there is usually 1-2 pints run-off.

15) Any additives or tea's? (Superthrive, CalMag, molasses, Mother's Earth...)
Molasses

16) Are your ph levels stable, or do they fluctuate?
Not really sure now, more about this in a bit.

17) What is your ingoing water's ph? ...your runoff ph?
Not really sure now, more about this in a bit.

18) Do you foliar feed? If so, with what, how often, and at what time do you spray?
No.

Your growroom:
19) Indoors or outdoors?
In

20) What size of closet, room or hut?
Cabinet style box 16"d 52"w 50"h.

21) What are the temps and humidity levels while lights are on? ...With lights off?
Weather unit style gauge shows min-max over 24 hours, 72-86F 42-55 humidity, this stays pretty constant, no more that a 1-3 point change from day to day.

22) Have you seen signs of insects in the growroom?
Never

Your strain:
23) What strain are you growing? (Indica dominate or Sativa dom?)
I dont know, believed to be Indica

24) From seeds or clones?
Seed

25) Is this an autoflower strain?
Not that I'm aware of.


Yes, I'm having a pH problem but exactly how much of a problem is not clear yet. I had a cheap 3 way tester (pH/moisture/lumens) and tested all ingoing and outgoing water after the first few weeks or so. I always had a suspicion that the tester was kinda wacky but now I'm sure. I bought a Milwaukee pH600 and it reads way diff than the el-cheapo. The M reads 7.1-7.2 on tap but the cheapo reads 8+. I always was under the idea that my pH was way high and I was trying to bring it down but when I watered today my ingoing water w/ nutes was 6.0 and my runoff was 5.7. I figure that puts me in an ideal range but I also only used 1/2tsp of pH Down per 3 quarts when usually it takes a full tsp to get it right.

I really dont know what my pH has been doing but I know its pretty damn close to right today.

The leaf prob is ongoing. It was very slight for a while now, maybe 1-2 leaves a week if any but now its 4-6 leaves in four days. I'm sure my pH has been up and down like hell but its good right now and prob has been since at least the last water four days ago, or not, IDK.

Most pics of pH fluctuation I've seen dont look very much like my leaves. My leaves look more like their showing sign of a deficiency IMO. I wouldnt begin to know which deficiency it would be either.

The growth of the plants has slowed a bit in the past week though.

Does anybody have any thoughts as to what is going on?

pH fluctuation or deficiency or both?
IDK.....

[Slevinkal]

Bump

Plus, the prob has spread more since I started this thread, it's moving quick!

[ZZTops]

Looks like your short on "P" or having some lock out...

Check this thread, 1st post & 4th photo...

http://boards.cannabis.com/basic-growing/192661-diagnosing-nutrient-problems-plants-pictures.html

[Slevinkal]

Thanks ZZ

P was my first though cause of THIS (http://cannabis.com/growing/nietz11a.jpg) pic in another pic-style trouble shooter.

Lockout wouldnt supprise me either.

The odd part that I didnt think about until now is that the two clones I have vegging have been in soil for 17 days and they get watered at the same time as the girls in flower with the same exact water but they look great. That could just be due to the diff in veg and flower needs though, IDK. I'm still pretty green at this.

[Slevinkal]

Even though I watered/feed yesterday I flushed the girls...

I used 1 gallon of water per plant and got maybe 4-6oz less than 1 gallon of run off. The water was 5.3 going in and 5.2 coming out.

While flushing I used a 8-14-9 Schultz nute @ 1/3 strength.

Guess I'll see what happens in the next few days to a week. From what I've read it'll prob take 1-3 weeks to remedy this prob :(

[ZZTops]

Couple of Thoughts...

On your PH... 5.3 is way to low for soil IMHO, 6.3 is more in line...

That Schlutz Nute is off the chart in "P" so your low PH is probably locking it out...

On Flush... Might try something like Botanicare Clearex, works wonders...

Clearex | Botanicare (http://www.americanagritech.com/supplements/clearex)

[Slevinkal]

Couple of Thoughts...

On your PH... 5.3 is way to low for soil IMHO, 6.3 is more in line...

That Schlutz Nute is off the chart in "P" so your low PH is probably locking it out...

On Flush... Might try something like Botanicare Clearex, works wonders...

Clearex | Botanicare (http://www.americanagritech.com/supplements/clearex)

Ya, I know. I've been trying to keep it 5.5-6.5 but apparently I've been forcing it a bit low due to the cruddy reading from the cruddy pH tester and I'm gonna hafta ease it back up now.

This is the first time I used the Schultz and I only got it cause of the high P and it was used at a weak dose.

I don't really see the point in additives when flushing, why add more if you want less in the end? Seems almost counter productive to me and just cause you cant taste something funky in the plant doesnt mean that nothing was left behind, its prob just a bunch of chems designed to mask or hide taste/flavor as far as I know.

[OldHead09]

What is your experience level? (first timer, novice, experienced...)
Smart N00B :D

Your Equipment:
.1) Type and wattage of lights. (MH, HPS, CFL's, tube fluorescents, LED's)
T8 Fluoro 4x32w, 4x60w CFL - All @ 2700K

.2) Distance from tops?
3 inches/scrog

.3) Reflector type? (cool tube set-up, bat wing, enclosed reflector, bare bulb...)
2 double bulb 4' fixtures mounted in a hood I built. The fixtures themselves have a brushed chrome finish and the hood hangs down another 2" and is painted flat white.

.4) Is there a consistent fresh air supply?
Yes

.5) Do you have an exhaust fan and a circulation fan?
2x exhaust and yes

.6) What are the bulb wattages, kelvin ratings, and schedule?
32 and 60 watt, 2700k, 12/12

Your medium:
.7) Specific brand and type of soil, (coco, peat based soilless...) and anything you've added to it. (vermiculite, perlite, worm castings...)
FoxFarms Ocean Forest

.8) Size of container.
3 gallon

.9) Did you use peat pucks (or similar) to root clones or germinate seedlings?
Yes

Your nutrients and water:
10) Source of water? (tap, bottled or filtered) What's it's ph before adjusting?
Gassed out tap when water/molasses, bottled when water/nute. Pre and Post pH debatable, more on this in a bit.

11) Method of checking water ph. (ph pen, test strips, aquarium test kit...)
El-cheapo 3way tester from HD and now a Milwaukee pH600.

12) Method of adjusting water ph. (phosphoric acid, white vinegar, hydrated lime, PH Up...)
Started adjusting with vinegar, used maybe three times, been adjusting for a while now with pH down.

13) Specific brand and N-P-K ratio for each bottle. List dosages (quantity per gallon) and current feeding schedule.
FoxFarms Big Bloom at 3/4 strength @ every other watering.

14) How often are you watering between feedings, and how much per watering?
water/feed/water/feed and so on. 3 quarts per water/feed, there is usually 1-2 pints run-off.

15) Any additives or tea's? (Superthrive, CalMag, molasses, Mother's Earth...)
Molasses

16) Are your ph levels stable, or do they fluctuate?
Not really sure now, more about this in a bit.

17) What is your ingoing water's ph? ...your runoff ph?
Not really sure now, more about this in a bit.

18) Do you foliar feed? If so, with what, how often, and at what time do you spray?
No.

Your growroom:
19) Indoors or outdoors?
In

20) What size of closet, room or hut?
Cabinet style box 16"d 52"w 50"h.

21) What are the temps and humidity levels while lights are on? ...With lights off?
Weather unit style gauge shows min-max over 24 hours, 72-86F 42-55 humidity, this stays pretty constant, no more that a 1-3 point change from day to day.

22) Have you seen signs of insects in the growroom?
Never

Your strain:
23) What strain are you growing? (Indica dominate or Sativa dom?)
I dont know, believed to be Indica

24) From seeds or clones?
Seed

25) Is this an autoflower strain?
Not that I'm aware of.


Yes, I'm having a pH problem but exactly how much of a problem is not clear yet. I had a cheap 3 way tester (pH/moisture/lumens) and tested all ingoing and outgoing water after the first few weeks or so. I always had a suspicion that the tester was kinda wacky but now I'm sure. I bought a Milwaukee pH600 and it reads way diff than the el-cheapo. The M reads 7.1-7.2 on tap but the cheapo reads 8+. I always was under the idea that my pH was way high and I was trying to bring it down but when I watered today my ingoing water w/ nutes was 6.0 and my runoff was 5.7. I figure that puts me in an ideal range but I also only used 1/2tsp of pH Down per 3 quarts when usually it takes a full tsp to get it right.

I really dont know what my pH has been doing but I know its pretty damn close to right today.

The leaf prob is ongoing. It was very slight for a while now, maybe 1-2 leaves a week if any but now its 4-6 leaves in four days. I'm sure my pH has been up and down like hell but its good right now and prob has been since at least the last water four days ago, or not, IDK.

Most pics of pH fluctuation I've seen dont look very much like my leaves. My leaves look more like their showing sign of a deficiency IMO. I wouldnt begin to know which deficiency it would be either.

The growth of the plants has slowed a bit in the past week though.

Does anybody have any thoughts as to what is going on?

pH fluctuation or deficiency or both?
IDK.....
I don't think you are alone on this one, another person whom I feel is very knowledgable has suggested it may be FF soil itself....

[Slevinkal]

I don't think you are alone on this one, another person whom I feel is very knowledgable has suggested it may be FF soil itself....

Any evidence to back that up?

I'm not saying its incorrect, it's just that I've never heard that before.

Anything is possible though.

[canniwhatsis]

Hows your girl? Any signs of improvement since flushing?

[Slevinkal]

Funny story bout that.....

I did all that earlier then picked up my kids and went to the park (I posted pics of that place a while back).

We chilled for a while then back home they go :(

When I got home I didn't check the time, strolled into my bedroom with all the lights blazing and unlocked/opened the grow doors...

It was night night time for the girls and I didnt realize it so I slammed to door shut as quickly as possible, so quick in fact that I didnt have time to get my fingers outta the way LOL

So I really dont know yet, the flash view I got of em didn't indicate any droopyness or the like but I damn sure dont wanna grab a torch and go inspecting them when their "sleeping"...

[canniwhatsis]

LOL! Ouch! That sux,....

FYI any kind of light problem has to be enough that the plants start to wake up,... so igniting an HID but then shutting it back off before it warms up isn't going to hurt her, unless it's a habit. Keep bright light exposure to less than 3 minuets and you shouldn't have a problem.

Get yourself a Green light to do night time inspections. I've worked in my "Dark" cycle for hours with a Green LED headlamp on with no harm to my ladies. ;)

[Slevinkal]

facepalm

I've actually got a green LED, on my key chain, clipped to me right now...

let ya know in a few

[Slevinkal]

The girls are looking good as far as I can tell right now.



I wasn't really expecting to see any improvement by now but atleast I know the flush w/ high P nute didnt just wreck the crud outta em right away. It seemed like a drastic move to me but from what I've read a P def can be pretty aggresive at times...

Hell, atleast they aint water-logged from being water yesterday and flushed today.

I did notice a prob though, maybe. My RH is at 69 now, my wife likes to leave the windows open this time of year, it's 94RH outside now :(

How high can the RH get at this point before it turns into a prob?

And, yes. I know I'll hafta keep the RH down when I dry :D

[canniwhatsis]

it's 94RH outside now :(



UHHGG!!! F' That! I struggle to get my RH to 40+ in flower (hovers around 35-40), and run an additional humidifier in Vege to boost RH to around 50, (airflow is intake thru flower, vent into vege, then vent outside, temps in vege are slightly higher same with RH) Ambient here is 15-20% I have to ADD moisture during drying! :eek:

[Slevinkal]

:wtf:

I'm not even gonna waste my time and quote all sorts of posts that make your two here look very moot...

Please read the entire thread next time instead of only the first post...

Skimming doesn't count either

[WashougalWonder]

I think you have nute burn. You are on the right track flushing. BUT, I have never grown under CFL, so........

You must get an accurate ph testing kit, you can get cheap drop test that is sufficient, and gotta keep the ingoing pH no lower than 6. Water pH can fluctuate by the day

[Slevinkal]

I think you have nute burn. You are on the right track flushing. BUT, I have never grown under CFL, so........

You must get an accurate ph testing kit, you can get cheap drop test that is sufficient, and gotta keep the ingoing pH no lower than 6. Water pH can fluctuate by the day

I have bought a Milwaukee pH600 already, stated that too...

And, my lighting is mainly fluoro tubes if that makes a diff.

It may be nute burn but I doubt it. Im not arguing the point w/ ya it's just that I've been using the same dose for a bit now and have actually dropped it just a bit lately, thats when the prob got worse and lead me to believe it was a defieciency prob.

And ya, our water here is screwy!

I live at the end of a cul-de-sac and the neighborhoods water all comes from a pump station thats about 50 yards from our house. I've already noticed that the pH always jumps on Mon, Wed, and Fri but Tues, Thur, Sat and Sun the pH is about .5 lower. Workers show up and do something over there for an hour or two every Mon, Wed, and Fri too.

[MimbresValley]

My .2$ start foliar feeding, and continue flushing soil with water for a week, then go back to feeding at a 3/4 of what you were feeding. This way if there is a lock up of nutrients it will be flushed out of the soil. If you have some def, foliar feeding will help in the meantime.
Also I would remove any leaves that are damaged severely.
Lets play chess buddy

[Slevinkal]

I'm sorry that you misunderstood my comments towards.

I didn't mean to imply you were wrong it any way. I said moot. Do you understand what that word means? I doesn't mean wrong, it means of little or no value. I'm sorry that didn't understand why I wrote that but I'll clarify...

Do you think telling my pH is off is gonna help in any way? I already know its off and this has already been discussed in this very thread moot...

You write my plants are maxed out on steroids. Really? Explain how feeding with FF BB at 3/4 strength every other watering is maxing out the plants with steroids when I've been feeding this for quite a while and have recently already lowered nute doses and the prob got worse... moot...

You write explaining to trim the damaged leaves because blah blah blah. Yes. Your right. They should be removed if they're dead and I already know this... moot...


Also, if that's RO water (PH 7) you're using, that seems like an awful lot of PH down.

I just had to quote this one...
If its RO? If? I've already posted that Im not using RO and you actually quoted me on it... moot...

You also mentioned that Phosphorus may be a concern. DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER!!! no wait... we dont have a winner... this was already discussed too, and yet again you quoted me writing this... moot...

It's not that you are offering bad information. Not that at all. Most of your info is pretty darn good info but you pretty much just wasted my time by rehashing topics that have already been discussed. If you would have actually read the whole thread and applied the information already discussed instead of coming off as an impatient know-it-all I wouldn't be typing moot... so much today.

So in summary: Yes. You're right. BUT, this has all been discussed already and you adding more already added info is moot...

:D <----- honestly, does adding that to your last post really makes it less douchy?

[Slevinkal]

My .2$ start foliar feeding, and continue flushing soil with water for a week, then go back to feeding at a 3/4 of what you were feeding. This way if there is a lock up of nutrients it will be flushed out of the soil. If you have some def, foliar feeding will help in the meantime.
Also I would remove any leaves that are damaged severely.
Lets play chess buddy

Ahhh... NEW INFO lol

Yes, they need flushing some more since I skulled the last watering.

IDK bout foliar feeding though, my RH is already higher than I want it to be and I don't wanna add any more moisture in there just yet.

RH is gonna be fun come dry time, S.T. has some hellishly high RH this time of year (96 high RH yesterday), Im hoping that when harvest time comes it'll be cooler and dryer.

[Slevinkal]

I thought it was a nice touch. Kinda made up for your :wtf:

Touche

[OldHead09]

Any evidence to back that up?

I'm not saying its incorrect, it's just that I've never heard that before.

Anything is possible though.
No evidence yet but I have a good smart friend whom is going to call them and attempt to confirm, I will let you know when I fiind out.

[Slevinkal]

No evidence yet but I have a good smart friend whom is going to call them and attempt to confirm, I will let you know when I fiind out.

I did some digging (google) and it turns out the you two, by far, are not the only peeps suggesting this may be the case.

[ZZTops]

Touche

I Think your being Touche...

Ask for options then PooPoo what dose not met expectations...?

[Slevinkal]

I Think your being Touche...

Ask for options then PooPoo what dose not met expectations...?

Forgive me.

I'm not ungrateful for any answers given. :hippy:

Not saying that anything here is other than fact but when discussing fact or fiction I tend to challenge ideas, dig deeper and sometimes get mistaken for a ungrateful ass. It's a bad habit but none the less a habit. It could be called a quazi quest for knowledge and truth that pisses peeps off. Sorry.

[Slevinkal]

Ok cool,

check it out. One thing nobody said yet so it might not be moot (I thought moot meant "open to question"), is EC or TDS reading. If you don't think you've overfed them, than it's PH and you already got that under control. But run a tds test and make sure you're non-toxic with the foods. You need one anyways just to have it cause it's cool. But really, if you get used to an EC or TDS tester, it becomes way easier and more accurate mixing food, it's better than the label. Between ph and tds, you can cook it up just how they like it every time.

Then they'll love you again. Right now you poured acid on them and burned big holes in their flesh.
Maybe you should get them a treat or something. But what can you give a plant to say your sorry. Flowers?
I can hear the little &^&^#es screaming now...

Another thing that is probably "moot", but I don't know cause I can't pay attention through the whole thread:

Do you have grow bulbs or bloom bulbs?

I've though of EC, TDS, PPM meters lately but scratched the idea just cause I'm so broke I cant even afford to pay attention right now. That also had a great influence on how I handled what I believe to be P def. The Schultz high P food was only four bucks and seeing as I was shooting for the P def and not lockout I figured a four dollar fix was worth a shot.

No on the bulbs. Their just plain old Fluoros with a couple CFLs down on the end with the smaller plant now. The larger plants is at the screen completely but plant C is still "gettin' there" so it was turned so that the shorter that hasnt reached the screen is bathed in CFLs since its further from the fluoros.

:D :D :D CONDITION UPDATE :D :D :D

Even though the pH of the last water/flush was low I think the high P dose did em some good! In the past 48 hours only a total of 2 leaves have gotten funky looking and the slow growth has ended cause these two girls have hit a mad growing spurt. They've thickened up a lot and new denser bud formation is noticeable now. Also, the soil is drying up faster than it has been lately so I guess their all thirsty as hell.

This being the case my short plan is to drop the FFBB down to bout 1/2 dose and mix in some of the high P nutes in at bout 1/3 dose as a supplement to the FF. Their next water will be plain water pH adjusted to 6 too.

[ZZTops]

Glad to hear there responding...

The only problem I see using the Schultz at 1/4 to 1/3 strength listed on bottle is the "N" is way more then they need in Bloom...

I found the PH Meter is most important any way and that will help you a lot now that you got one...

[Slevinkal]

Glad to hear there responding...

The only problem I see using the Schultz at 1/4 to 1/3 strength listed on bottle is the "N" is way more then they need in Bloom...

I found the PH Meter is most important any way and that will help you a lot now that you got one...

Ok. On the Schultz it says 7 drops per quart and the P is 14. The P is the FFBB is .3, and the N is .01. How much of the Schultz would you recommend to keep the P deff at bay?

Ya, I think the old pH meter was bout 75% of the prob cause...

[Slevinkal]

Sounds like your plants love you again

Not as much as I love them :jointsmile:

Here's the REAAAAALLLY cruddy news tough...

I'm currently un-employed and the new job I should (fingers crossed) be starting soon does a UA at hire and then randoms through out employ, and any prob or accident that arises is followed by a instant UA!!!

I'll hafta cut WAAAAAY back to almost no use at all but that wont stop me from growing for the Mrs and for the fun of it :D

Cutting back to almost null is gonna mean I'm gonna hafta take a lot of narco's and phsyc meds again. FU*@!!! I hate that crap now...

[ZZTops]

Wow... That Sucks bid time, what's this world coming to...?

Can't smoke weed but here's all the Narcotics you can put down...!

Speaking from experience you'll have to do more then cut back, I throw a dirty UA after 4 weeks of no smoking. It was a very small amount but the DA made a big deal out of it...

Remember for every door that closes, one opens...

[Slevinkal]

Wow... That Sucks bid time, what's this world coming to...?

Can't smoke weed but here's all the Narcotics you can put down...!

Speaking from experience you'll have to do more then cut back, I throw a dirty UA after 4 weeks of no smoking. It was a very small amount but the DA made a big deal out of it...

Remember for every door that closes, one opens...

It wasn't cannabis related, and I prefer not to go into detail, but ya, I was nailed to the wall by a DA once myself.

When I say cut back I mean wwwaaaaaaaayyyyy back to the point of only smoking once or twice a month, it any at all. I know the 1-2 times a month is enough to keep my sys dirty but hell, thats a lot easier to dilute that than it would be if I keep tokin' 4-7 times a day!