would like opinions on seedling light schedule

[littlemountain]

just started my first indoor grow- been doing it outside since 1972- got a lot to learn for-sure I have started my seeds , sprouting today- I have them under a 1k MH , I am able to maintain a 72 degree temp 24 inches from tops- should I be running a 20 on 4 off for now- or should I be doing a 16 on 8 off then switch to 20-4 after roots are established- googled this ? and got a bunch of different opinions on using MH at this stage, it is what I have for now HELP !:thumbsup:

[bigsby]

just started my first indoor grow- been doing it outside since 1972- got a lot to learn for-sure I have started my seeds , sprouting today- I have them under a 1k MH , I am able to maintain a 72 degree temp 24 inches from tops- should I be running a 20 on 4 off for now- or should I be doing a 16 on 8 off then switch to 20-4 after roots are established- googled this ? and got a bunch of different opinions on using MH at this stage, it is what I have for now HELP !:thumbsup:

Just pick a light schedule and stick to it. Otherwise you stress the plants and risk hermies. Opinions vary on what is best. Some people run 24/0 some 20/4, and some 18/6. 18/6 is what is most widely recommended.

I'm interested to hear from others the benefits of running the longer lights on schedules. Obviously the plants get more light but is there a sacrifice? The plants need lights out for certain processes, no? I have read that there is little benefit to running longer light schedules. I run 18/6 due to heat issues and electricity use.

[Stomper420]

Im popping 6 WW under CFLs 24/0 right now. 2 days and I have at least 1 coming up so far:thumbsup:

[Dutch Pimp]

High littlemountain...:thumbsup:

we just plowed this field, last week :http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-problems/192467-24-hour-lights.html#post2158362

[littlemountain]

High littlemountain...:thumbsup:

we just plowed this field, last week :http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-problems/192467-24-hour-lights.html#post2158362

Hey Dutch , I do rememeber some of our discussion on times, computer crashed and I lost all saved info on my desktop.I like your metaphor of plowed field-unfortunetly because of these fucking pain meds I am on, I trip in the furrows a lot-and get stuck in the mud- nice having another old farm boy out there-Just left grow room and all 17 seeds showing their green already- started germination on the 16th - don't you love a full moon

[Dutch Pimp]

yes, I do...:detective1:...like a full moon

this is a pic from the one, last month

[GetThisOrDie]

I have used 18/6 and 24/0 on seedlings and have never really seen a difference.


You know you can use just a regular CFL bulb to light your seedlings right? 1000w for seedlings is kind of overkill if you ask me. Plus you save money until they are ready for that giant bulb.

[bigsby]

Only real difference being that with 18/6 plant will show their preflower / sex more quickly. In other words, they mature more quickly. That and your electric bills will be lower!

[SAP420]

With seedlings, I usually go with 24 hour lighting with a nice soft fluorescent light until the seedlings have built up their third set of leaves then I change over to 18 on and 6 off. Although 24 hour lighting is perfectly safe during the seedling stage. :thumbsup:

[GreenThumbDoc]

There has been long debate on this issue and I personally think 18/6 is better then 24/0. The obvious reason, a savings in $$ on your electric bill. The other reason is after watching MJ grow indoors in my controlled environment for a very long time, you can observe very subtle but obvious behaviors of the plant. Roughly 2 hours before lights out, my plants start to droop in anticipation for the dark period. Roughly 2 hours before lights on, they perk back up in anticipation for the light period. The reason this happens, since the plant is not Photosynthesizing, it is taking all stored energy (sugars) from the day and moving them to the stem and down to the roots. Though roots grow 24/7, they do a majority of their growing in the dark. From my OWN experience, if you want a strong healthy plant with a strong rootball, a dark period is key. Of course, in 5 minutes somebody here will come along and totally disagree and give their own take. Here is a picture I took of a plant that was only in a 3 gallon container from a 16oz solo cup for SEVEN days. You tell me if this is healthy accelerated root growth or not? :thumbsup:

GTD

[Dutch Pimp]

roots do all the work and get no credit...:wtf:

[halfassedjedi]

Only real difference being that with 18/6 plant will show their preflower / sex more quickly. In other words, they mature more quickly. That and your electric bills will be lower!

Totally believable. My biggest plant I have is in 18/6, and just started to show pistils and alternating branches the other day. I bet in 24/0, I wouldnt see any for a long time. Maybe 24/0 would be good for mother plants..?

Im curious to hear more from 24/0 photoperiod growers as well. Id like to hear some stories. haha.

[GaGrown]

18/6.. Because you will setting yourself up for them to be root-bound before time.

[oldmac]

There has been long debate on this issue and I personally think 18/6 is better then 24/0. The obvious reason, a savings in $$ on your electric bill. The other reason is after watching MJ grow indoors in my controlled environment for a very long time, you can observe very subtle but obvious behaviors of the plant. Roughly 2 hours before lights out, my plants start to droop in anticipation for the dark period. Roughly 2 hours before lights on, they perk back up in anticipation for the light period. The reason this happens, since the plant is not Photosynthesizing, it is taking all stored energy (sugars) from the day and moving them to the stem and down to the roots. Though roots grow 24/7, they do a majority of their growing in the dark. From my OWN experience, if you want a strong healthy plant with a strong rootball, a dark period is key. Of course, in 5 minutes somebody here will come along and totally disagree and give their own take. Here is a picture I took of a plant that was only in a 3 gallon container from a 16oz solo cup for SEVEN days. You tell me if this is healthy accelerated root growth or not? :thumbsup:

GTD

Hello GreenThumbDoc,

I made a promise to myself not to get envolved with the 18/6 vs. 24/0 ever again. This subject used to get kicked around here every few months, now it's every few weeks if not days. IMHO the photoperiod used during vegative growth is more a personal matter, ie: what work's best for the grower in thier particular grow. Even Raphael Mechoulan, the grandfather of cannabinoid reseach, had to do experiments on this subject to prove to colleagues and critics, when they found him using 24/0 vegative growth in some of his studies. He did not show which was better but that 24/0 "did no harm" to the plant and it could go on to flower just like any other photoperiod plant.

But you have made some statement's that defy what I have learned, read in textbooks or scientific papers as to roots and to a plant's funtion.

About 4 years ago now, I enrolled in a local community college as a senior citizen to take a horticultural course, that led to a few more. I had a professor from Rutger's Univ. who I've quoted here before but will repeat now, he stated "While roots grow in the dark, they don't grow WHEN it is dark". In other words roots grow during photosysntheis not during the dark period. It is true that at the root cap, cell division continues during the dark phase, but it is making basically a lubricant (cell layers) for when the main or tap root goes back to growing.

If you would be so kind to steer me to or cite a source for your theroy that roots grow in the dark I would appreciate it, because I don't want to be the one to pass on bad information.

OM

[GreenThumbDoc]

Hello GreenThumbDoc,

I made a promise to myself not to get envolved with the 18/6 vs. 24/0 ever again. This subject used to get kicked around here every few months, now it's every few weeks if not days. IMHO the photoperiod used during vegative growth is more a personal matter, ie: what work's best for the grower in thier particular grow. Even Raphael Mechoulan, the grandfather of cannabinoid reseach, had to do experiments on this subject to prove to colleagues and critics, when they found him using 24/0 vegative growth in some of his studies. He did not show which was better but that 24/0 "did no harm" to the plant and it could go on to flower just like any other photoperiod plant.

But you have made some statement's that defy what I have learned, read in textbooks or scientific papers as to roots and to a plant's funtion.

About 4 years ago now, I enrolled in a local community college as a senior citizen to take a horticultural course, that led to a few more. I had a professor from Rutger's Univ. who I've quoted here before but will repeat now, he stated "While roots grow in the dark, they don't grow WHEN it is dark". In other words roots grow during photosysntheis not during the dark period. It is true that at the root cap, cell division continues during the dark phase, but it is making basically a lubricant (cell layers) for when the main or tap root goes back to growing.

If you would be so kind to steer me to or cite a source for your theroy that roots grow in the dark I would appreciate it, because I don't want to be the one to pass on bad information.

OM

Well I am not going to get into a pissing match with ya oldmac, or go into what credentials I have to of made my comment, because on the net, everyone is good looking and highly educated, remember? As for sources, I can simply cite one here on this own website.

Text (http://www.cannabis.com/growing/gettingstarted-Do_roots_really_grow_in_the_dark.html)

During the day, (Lights ON) the plant is collecting and storing light energy, and is using and storing raw materials. The plant is stockpiling raw material, and is charging itâ??s batteriesâ?¦ it is ALSO using raw materials and using the energy it is collecting. Itâ??s building itself, literally putting itself together.

During the day however, the plant is not as efficient at building itself, as it is at night (lights OFF.) It can build itself, but not as quickly.

While the lights are OFF, the plant is using energy and raw materials to build itselfâ?¦. the plant is more efficiently using the raw materials that it stored during the day. The plant is better at transporting and assembling the raw materials.


I didn't want to over complicate things or go into "Dark Reaction" but if you want more technical references, here is a good read:

PHOTOSYNTHESIS (http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BiobookPS.html)

GTD

[oldmac]

Hey 'Doc,

I am/was not trying to get into a pissing match with you or asked you about your credentials to grow or make statements. I explained what I was taught and what I have read and I asked you nicely, I thought, to steer me to info on roots growing during the dark phase. I should have edited "or a plants function" cause as I was writing the post I had to re-read what you had written (at my age my reading comprehension is poor sometimes) and realized it was just an oversimplification I did not understand initially. That is way I did not ask you to cite a source for that. Tho you did anyway. :wtf:

The text that you linked, the second paragraph says and I quote;

Many times I've seen posts that "roots grow during the dark". If this was true, the 24/0 photoperiod would result in a plant with a tiny root structure if one at all! We know this is not the case-so how does it actually work?

I've used this same analogy, just recently on another thread. My contention was if roots grow in the dark, how do cuttings make roots, using the accepted 24/0 photoperiod for clonning?

[OK now get ready for my snarky comment]

I admit my reading comprehension is poor at times, but I got an excuse....I'm old. What's yours? :D

[that was just a joke, lighten up]

I look upon these forums as a place to exchange ideas. Ususally it winds up just answering some pretty dumb questions but many threads are actual intelligent conversations. Lately there have been fewer of those.
OM

[WashougalWonder]

GreenThumb....
If I were you I would consider myself very lucky to have not been hammered by OM. That was a pretty coarse statement on your part. He definately was not looking to get into a pissing match....but you might have started one. I hope not.

[ZZTops]

In this debate often there is merit on both sides of the 18/6 or 24hr light periord...

So I throw out the high & low and go with 20/4 from day one to bloom...

They also say plants do not grow in the dark and I'm not to sure about that either. I have two Males under 12/12, T-5's, 1" from the lights at night and every morning there into the lights. So if there not growing there stretching 1" every night, so somethings going on...

At the end of the day all three time sets work, MJ is very adaptable to there current environment...

[oldmac]

Hey there WashougalWonder,

I guess I need to work on a more tacfull way of saying, your're wrong. :wtf:

The only reason I did not go off on GTD with his responce to me, was the vaporizer was loaded and on and within easy reach. :thumbsup: It would be nice if he showed up here again, and admit he was wrong about root growth. An apology is optional.

Just the other day I was reading a thread on another board when someone corrected the same misstatement, and least 5 jerks stepped up to say they KNEW roots grow in the dark, but the only reference they could cite was "I read it on/in a post...somewhere". I wasn't looking to start anything with GTD but I did not want to see more bad info spread around.

OM

[oldmac]

Hello ZZTops,

That "growth" you see is not actually new vegatation, some of it is due to stalk or stem stretch after the lights go off. Plus plants during the dark phase up take a lot of water (and nutrients with it) that they store in thier leaves and stems for the next photoperiod this adds to stem stretch.

In farming it is refered to as the "corn" effect. Corn often is said to look like it has grown inches overnight, when in reality there was no new vegative growth, just those big stalks stretching and holding lots of water. :)

OM

[ZZTops]

Thanks OldMac, that make since...

It's not as noticeable with the females but the males drink twice as much as the females so they like to stretch...

Also in my hydro set up I cycle every 3 hours around the clock, so say it's a waste but I find the plants really like it...

[GreenThumbDoc]

Hey there WashougalWonder,

I guess I need to work on a more tacfull way of saying, your're wrong. :wtf:

The only reason I did not go off on GTD with his responce to me, was the vaporizer was loaded and on and within easy reach. :thumbsup: It would be nice if he showed up here again, and admit he was wrong about root growth. An apology is optional.

Just the other day I was reading a thread on another board when someone corrected the same misstatement, and least 5 jerks stepped up to say they KNEW roots grow in the dark, but the only reference they could cite was "I read it on/in a post...somewhere". I wasn't looking to start anything with GTD but I did not want to see more bad info spread around.

OM

First off, it is fairly presumptious of you to call me wrong when I have given you TWO references for plant growth at night, one directly from this site. Secondly, I took you to task on your original response to me as it had obvious patronizing overtones. It is naive on your part to ASSUME all patrons of this forum are uneducated pot smoking fools. I am all for open debate and considering others opinions on a wide variety of subjects. However, it appears your word is the gospel. I didn't realize taking one course from a community college several years ago makes you an expert in this field, my apologies. As for me being thankful for somebody not going off on me on an internet forum in a medium of anonymity, I find this quite humorous. I simply came here to share my experiences and knowledge with others that may benefit from it. There are plenty of other sites that come across as more welcoming, and I have no issues going there instead.

GTD

[tikiroom]

Nice info there oldmac. :thumbsup:
This makes me wonder if you could help control stretch during flower by limiting it's water at lights out?

Is this one of the reasons why in ebb&flow some don't flood during lights out, but do so right before lights out?
:detective1:

[GreenThumbDoc]

As for the scientific reason why plants DO grow at night, here you go:

During the daytime, plants produce energy in the form of ATP and NADPH (light reactions)...during the night, these energy forms go to the dark reactions (Calvin Cycle) to fuel the production of organic molecules from CO2 collected during the day...some of these organic molecules will be stored (starch) and some will be used for plant structural growth (cellulose), and some for other organic molecules (lipids, proteins, etc).

GTD

[budlover13]

I'm a noob grower, on only my 3rd grow, but because of the idea of 24/0=more growth. I started seeds on 24/0 and was unimpressed by their growth. After 3 weeks, I switched back to 18/6 and within two days noticed a lot of new growth that has continued since going back to 18/6. I might have accidentally timed the switch during or just before a natural growth spurt, idk, but I do know they are happily growing up into fine young ladies(I hope) now.

[GreenThumbDoc]

Here is more scientific data to back up plant growth at night (with references). Thanks for playing!

Biologists Identify Genes Controlling Rhythmic Plant Growth (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080916101146.htm)

While most people might assume that plants grow at a slow and steady rate throughout the day and night, Darwin and others found that they grow in regular nightly spurts, with plant stems elongating fastest in the hours just before dawn. See video of soybean sprout growth at: http://www.biology.ucsd.edu/scicomm/video/bigbeansprout.mov (http://www.biology.ucsd.edu/scicomm/video/bigbeansprout.mov)
"Plants actually grow rhythmically," said Kay. "Some plants, like sorghum, have the ability to elongate a centimeter or more each night."
Why plants have evolved mechanisms to grow rhythmically at night or in the hours just before dawn is a mystery. But a similar interplay of light sensing, plant hormones and circadian rhythms that leads to a pronounced rhythmic growth by plants during certain seasons and when shaded by other plants has a clear survival value.

GTD

[tikiroom]

From what I understand from reading both of your posts is, in a way you're both right.

The both of you stated that at night the stem grows or "stretches". Due to its biologic adaption for survival. Meaning, grow taller to ensure it wins the battle for light.

Both of you in way or another has said that new foliage does not grow at night.

So I interpret this as there is no new foliage growth, due to the plant using all it's stored energy to grow/stretch the stem.

With that said, you would assume that the roots also do not grow at night, because all the plants energy is focused on the stem.

This makes since to me since I've seen a lot of posts around here about when going to 12/12 the plant stretches and root growth slows down.

But hey what do I know
That's just my :twocents:

[gypski]

I started the ones I have going now with FF OF in cups. And let them go with the rest of the harem 24/7. Under the T5 they are doing fine in my opinion. No nutes for a month straight water, and let the girls be girls (hopefully they all are all ladies, but I need a stud to do some hanky panky with a momma!! :D). I might, just to see the reaction nute stress them a little after the third or fourth node. These two were just moved from cups. :cool:

[budlover13]

AHA!!! I may just be heavily medicated from smoking some of the last of my Trainwreck(EXCELLENT first-time strain to grow-imho) right now, but I think I may have just come up with a possible solution to those "great debates" on cannabis. This is the idea I plan on running with from now on. It won't put the debates to rest, since opinions and science often clash, BUT from now on, while I will still seek opinions and advice on ideas or concepts that are new to me, I will(as much as possible) use a large rubbermaid tub or small closet/cabinet and simply implement this new idea into that 1 plant. Proof is best found independently, again imo. So come JAN1, when I move to my new home with the extra bedroom that my beautiful, understanding, loving wife has so graciously allowed me to designate as my new grow room, Each new grow will be accompanied by an informative thread, open for discussion, where I will post results.

I already have a few experiments in mind and it will take time to accumulate info. However, once up and running, I am planning a monthly harvest so the info gathering should pick up pace.

[GreenThumbDoc]

AHA!!! I may just be heavily medicated from smoking some of the last of my Trainwreck(EXCELLENT first-time strain to grow-imho) right now, but I think I may have just come up with a possible solution to those "great debates" on cannabis. This is the idea I plan on running with from now on. It won't put the debates to rest, since opinions and science often clash, BUT from now on, while I will still seek opinions and advice on ideas or concepts that are new to me, I will(as much as possible) use a large rubbermaid tub or small closet/cabinet and simply implement this new idea into that 1 plant. Proof is best found independently, again imo. So come JAN1, when I move to my new home with the extra bedroom that my beautiful, understanding, loving wife has so graciously allowed me to designate as my new grow room, Each new grow will be accompanied by an informative thread, open for discussion, where I will post results.

I already have a few experiments in mind and it will take time to accumulate info. However, once up and running, I am planning a monthly harvest so the info gathering should pick up pace.

Great idea! :thumbsup: Looking forward to following up with you on it.

[ZZTops]

Agreed... One mans Growth is another mans stretch...:)

Love the Darwin quote GTDoc...:thumbsup:

[oldmac]

Wow, someone was busy doing some research, and that's always a good thing.

Before I go thru all these posts of DGT, I want to appoligize to the OP, mountianview for the clutter created here and hijscking the thread. Hope you don't mind since the thread is now a month old, I think. This topic of 24/0 vs 18/6 has been so beat to death.

I'd also like to thank ZZTops, budlover13, gypski and others for particating in the more interesting parts here or even staying OT. Special thanks to Tikiroom for trying to be a peacemaker.

I don't have a whole lot of fight in me this evening, I spent the afternoon and evening visiting exisiting patients that are in hospice care and a new patient from the cancer group that really has me bummed out. A mid-thirties single mom with 4 young children, ages 5-14 who was just given the diagnosis of pancreatic cancer last week and is to start chemo wed. This put's what is important in perspective.

[oldmac]

Well I am not going to get into a pissing match with ya oldmac, or go into what credentials I have to of made my comment, because on the net, everyone is good looking and highly educated, remember? As for sources, I can simply cite one here on this own website.

Text (http://www.cannabis.com/growing/gettingstarted-Do_roots_really_grow_in_the_dark.html)

During the day, (Lights ON) the plant is collecting and storing light energy, and is using and storing raw materials. The plant is stockpiling raw material, and is charging itâ??s batteriesâ?¦ it is ALSO using raw materials and using the energy it is collecting. Itâ??s building itself, literally putting itself together.

During the day however, the plant is not as efficient at building itself, as it is at night (lights OFF.) It can build itself, but not as quickly.

While the lights are OFF, the plant is using energy and raw materials to build itselfâ?¦. the plant is more efficiently using the raw materials that it stored during the day. The plant is better at transporting and assembling the raw materials.


I didn't want to over complicate things or go into "Dark Reaction" but if you want more technical references, here is a good read:

PHOTOSYNTHESIS (http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BiobookPS.html)

GTD

The quote that you used from the TEXT you linked from here is a very simple explanation of a plant's function. As I already pointed out the second paragraph, highlighted in blue on 1st page/ my second post, is the complete opposite of your theroy of "roots grow 24/7".

The part that you qouted above does not refer to any root or plant growth, when it refers to a plant "building itself" it is not talking about growth but the processes that take's place internally. This is just a simple explanation of the 2nd link posted here PHOTOSYNTHESIS. Which by it's very definition is a process that takes place during the photoperiod.

Why not get into "Dark Reaction's", that is what we were taliking abt, roots growing during the dark period. This is also refered to as "light independent functions", and if you read it, deals with the Calvin Cycle which is how a plant processes carbon fixation, and the chemical reactions it involves. But again it does not mention any plant growth below or above ground level during the dark phase.:(
OM

[budlover13]

Hey oldmac, idk where you live, but is it possible for you to help me set up a service like the one you provide, but in my area?

[budlover13]

I have my own plan, but you have a couple years experience on me and I as well as the locals would love to pick up your torch.

[oldmac]

First off, it is fairly presumptious of you to call me wrong when I have given you TWO references for plant growth at night, one directly from this site.
Niether of your references say anything abt root or plant growth at night. You do have a reading comprehension problem. The second paragraph of the text from hear clearly refutes your position.
Secondly, I took you to task on your original response to me as it had obvious patronizing overtones.
And I believe that your orignial post sounded like you wanted or expected some sort of confrontation. Tell me exactly how I should have corrected you? Would it been better for me to question your intelligence? I tried to be as nice as I could, considering I'm old and cranky.
It is naive on your part to ASSUME all patrons of this forum are uneducated pot smoking fools.
That sir is just not correct, I have many friends here, most are a lot smarter then me and I'm more then willing to help newbies or anybody else, as long as they have tried to read and learn before hand. I do have a problem with young cash cropper wannabes who think we should spoon feed info to them.
I am all for open debate and considering others opinions on a wide variety of subjects. However, it appears your word is the gospel.
Looking at your cut and pastes it looks like you really wanted a pissing contest not an open debate or discussion. And may word ain't gospel, I believe in the gospel of scientific facts. As RustyTrichome says in his signature, "If you are comforatable with your facts you should be comfortable with my questioning those facts." And that is what I did..
I didn't realize taking one course from a community college several years ago makes you an expert in this field, my apologies.
Actually 3 courses, 2 in horticulture and 1 in plant biology. And even tho it was a community college the courses were taught by a professor from Rutger's Univ. But besides that, Ive been growing cannabis now for just over 70 years. I started at age 10 in 1940 on a tobacco farm in SC. Besides tobacco that happens to be in the same family as cannabis, we grew 2 types of hemp; a tall skanky India hemp for fiber and a short Russian ruderalis for seeds to make oil. I also learned from the PR farm workers what they were growing in the hedge rows and tree line between the fields. It seems that was my introduction to growing seedless, by age 12 I could identify plant sex of mj. Plus I've had the good fortune to work in various areas around the world starting in the 1950's in the US Canal zone in Pannama and finishinf in the late 60's early 70's in both Laos and then Thailand. Every where I was in the world I looked to find growers there to see how they grew and to collect seeds to bring home. Developed a good seed bank that became very profitable in the early 80's. I've grown seeds for various companies and people in the Netherlands up to just a few years ago. I have many friends there and have visited many times. In 1983 my wife got cancer, and we found that mj could help her deal with treatments, plus helped her appetite and pain. Shortly after she died I dedicated my life to growing good meds and providing them first thru a cancer support group and a little latter a hospice organization. I believe in "compassionate care" so I provide meds at no cost to patients. I've pride myself with growing indoors great meds, starting over 15yrs ago with an NFT system and my current personnal indoor system for the last 6yrs has been a 3 stage RW system that flowers in a GI grow rotating garden (heavily modified). The garden has had a home built LED/T5 hybred light for the last 3 yrs. Two years ago I partnered up for a grow with a younger guy (40's) that I've built aero/fog trays for SOG size plants , called "fogfognugen". The frist one (2-4x4 trays) is lit with 4- TI ProBloom LED grow lights. The second is lit with 2- 1kw PSMH bulbs. The deal was I'd build it and dial it in, he'd provide a major percentage of the finished product to the groups I have been working with. Sorta carry on my work. Oh, we also provide plant starts to a few other groups in nearby towns for them to grow out, also for free.I currently am more interested in light and it's effect. I happen to also believe the more I know about the plant the better I can manipulate and exploit it for my benifit.
As for me being thankful for somebody not going off on me on an internet forum in a medium of anonymity, I find this quite humorous.
Those weren't my words, but someone who had just witnessed a little over a week ago my dealing with a piss ant who got into a pissing contest and got banned. And you're lucky this is a internet forum, cause I know you would not have the balls to say the things to me in person you've said here.
I simply came here to share my experiences and knowledge with others that may benefit from it.
That's great, but passing on misinformation does not help anyone. And I suppose you think I'm here just to screw with you? Get serious.
There are plenty of other sites that come across as more welcoming, and I have no issues going there instead.
Well go then, it would be better for both of us.

GTD

I really did not want to get into this with you, but I'll reserve my final opinion of you till after I've had a chance tommrow to read and respond to the rest of your post's here. It's the least I can do, it seems you put some effort into it.
OM

[oldmac]

Hey oldmac, idk where you live, but is it possible for you to help me set up a service like the one you provide, but in my area?

Possibly, I'll talk to you tomorrow. I mean later on today, geez where does the time go, oh I know I lost a post before and just had to re do it.
OM

[budlover13]

Possibly, I'll talk to you tomorrow. I mean later on today, geez where does the time go, oh I know I lost a post before and just had to re do it.
OM

Yep, momma just said it wa time for bed here too(11:23pm pst). That is first and foremost 'cause if momma's not happy, nobody is happy! I'll check in first thing tomorrow! Thank you!:thumbsup::jointsmile:

[budlover13]

P.S, OM, if you're on FB or would like to support the movement(which you obviously do) there is a group called the Teapot Party tenvisioned by Willie himself.

I've always like Willie, my Dad used to when he was cleancut and wore a suit. After he truthfully bared his soul, my father couldn't stand him. Actually, I thank my Dad for that because he pushed me to listen.

[oldmac]

Hey there Budlover13,

I see that you are in Cali, so it presents a logistical problem. I have recently started a "mentor" program, where I'll design and produce a grow system based on aero or aero/fog grow trays and some form of lighting set-up. I then teach the recpient how to grow using what I built and/or designed (the recpient pays for the parts used etc). This also includes cuttings or more usually plant starts so they have plant material for mom's etc.

Unless you are in a county that uses sqft/canopy to gauge size of the permitted grow and not plant count my method of SOG, put's it in the illegal catergory in a legal state.

I'm in a not mmj state in the NE, had some snow this AM, but nothing like the midwest had been hit with. I am close enought to travel to NJ and RI that have gone/going mmj. It's just too bad they seem to want to use plant counts.

My philosophy of growing indoors has been; indoors using any form of artifical lighting, the most productive way to grow is SOG. If you've seen my album showing the construction of "fogfognugen" or the thread I indroduced the first experiment run of it, each tray is 136 plants or 276 per/foggy. In the partnered grow I am envolved in there are now 2 fogfognugen's going in the same room, 1 using TI LED lights and the other PSMHs. From a legal perspective, I maintain that as long as each tray has cuts from one clone mother source then that tray is really just 1 plant with 138 branches. Biologically there is no way to prove different, tho my lawyer says that probably would not hold up in court. But I've been so illegal for so long I don't know if I care.

BTW, Willie has been a great advocate for mmj, just hope the last bust in Texas goes well for him.
OM

[oldmac]

Nice info there oldmac. :thumbsup:
This makes me wonder if you could help control stretch during flower by limiting it's water at lights out?

Is this one of the reasons why in ebb&flow some don't flood during lights out, but do so right before lights out?
:detective1:

It might help, but more likely you'd experience plant droop during the dark phase, which then makes the plant take longer to take off at lights on.

I can not address ebb & flow systems but know in aero that it should run durring lights out, it is a time when the plants uptake most of their water/nutes.

Granny Storm Crow recently posted on a thread about plant stretch, passed on a reference to some university that found adding alcohol to the water mix caused a plant to stay short but produced flowers equal to a regular plant.

The better way is to use a far red source just before lights on and again at lights off. I better describe it on another thread. I'll see what I can do to find it and maybe link it (I'm not computer literate) or you can seach here for it.
OM

[oldmac]

As for the scientific reason why plants DO grow at night, here you go:

During the daytime, plants produce energy in the form of ATP and NADPH (light reactions)...during the night, these energy forms go to the dark reactions (Calvin Cycle) to fuel the production of organic molecules from CO2 collected during the day...some of these organic molecules will be stored (starch) and some will be used for plant structural growth (cellulose), and some for other organic molecules (lipids, proteins, etc).

GTD



Again the Calvin cycle explain's what a plant is doing internally, from a chemical, hormone and transport of stored energy/nutrient perspective. If you read or look at at the picture description's you'll see that it is during photosynthesis that the plant grows, plus stores energy etc. The Calvin Theroy does not support plant grwoth during the dark phase.

One thing that is clear to me, you at least realize that plants "don't need to rest" as some claim to support the plants in veg need a dark time to rest.

People need rest but plants are 24hr factories, and in fact a case can be made that they work equally/or more at dark then during lights on. This is more true during the flowering phase where they do need a dark period to accomplish many things, such as the building up of the hormone floragen along with other chemical functions.
OM

[oldmac]

Here is more scientific data to back up plant growth at night (with references). Thanks for playing!

Biologists Identify Genes Controlling Rhythmic Plant Growth (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080916101146.htm)

While most people might assume that plants grow at a slow and steady rate throughout the day and night, Darwin and others found that they grow in regular nightly spurts, with plant stems elongating fastest in the hours just before dawn. See video of soybean sprout growth at: http://www.biology.ucsd.edu/scicomm/video/bigbeansprout.mov (http://www.biology.ucsd.edu/scicomm/video/bigbeansprout.mov)
"Plants actually grow rhythmically," said Kay. "Some plants, like sorghum, have the ability to elongate a centimeter or more each night."
Why plants have evolved mechanisms to grow rhythmically at night or in the hours just before dawn is a mystery. But a similar interplay of light sensing, plant hormones and circadian rhythms that leads to a pronounced rhythmic growth by plants during certain seasons and when shaded by other plants has a clear survival value.

GTD

This a great find by you, just last year someone who know's my interest on various light effects sent me the scientific white paper this group published.
The paper is virtually unreadable unless you have a doctorate in plant biology.
The articule does refer to dark growth, tho it occurs more during predawn and just after sunset, at both times the sky is not fully dark, tho the articule does not seem to mention it. Indoors under artifical light we have a more sudden change of light, either they are on or off. These plant genes they discovered control photochrome Pr and Pfr, which is red light and far red light, and is one of the reasons for the last three years I've been runnig far red "trigger" lights, that come on before my regular lights and go off after the main lights. It is also sotra the basis of the PAD Manual or Rauber technique. Done correctly it fools the plant with various lights, to get the plant to have contiuous growth even during a supposed lights out. I don't fully understand it, tho I have the PAD manual, since it deals with variuos light "time factors" that I have had a hard time understanding...but I will at some point.

It's also very interesting in the respect of "circadian rythms" of the plant. I have experimented with, as I know other's have with this concept. I have at times run a "20hr day" during the flowering phase to see if I could shorten flowering times. In escence you can, you get one extra day of flowering/growth every 6 calender days. So if a plant flowers normally at say 8 weeks (56 calender days) you can get it to finish in abt 47 calender days. The down side is a constantly changing of when the lights are on so tending the plants needs or even checking them changes during the course of flowering.

Good find GTD, and it does mention some dark growth, but that maybe more sunrise/sunset stem growth.
OM

[oldmac]

GreenThumbDoctor,

Now having gone thru all this, other then the post that I responded to highlighted in blue, that sorta bothered me after a long stressfull day, I do give you credit for trying to prove that plants grow in the dark. This sorta brings me back to Tikiroom's comment that maybe we are both right. I will grant you stem stretch is growth, even tho it occurs outdoors just before sunrise and at sunset. And indoors it does occur during the dark phase, since we have no gradual change of light. I have seen nothing cited that indicates roots grow during the dark phase and I would hope you could read and digest some of the articules you posted and see what I've been talking about.

BTW, it has been fun playing....I just hope you can see where I was comming from. You are not one of the pot smoking dummies of which you spoke and that is clear. Still thinking about the last entry on Pr/Pfr, I'll attach a study here that deals with it and how plant stretch can be controlled that I recently came across. Unfortunately I am working with a fairly new computer and almost all the science papers I've accumulated are still stuck in my old one, or I would have posted some during this discussion.

I'm outa piss...how you doing? :)
OM

[WashougalWonder]

fascinating

[budlover13]

Hey there Budlover13,

I see that you are in Cali, so it presents a logistical problem. I have recently started a "mentor" program, where I'll design and produce a grow system based on aero or aero/fog grow trays and some form of lighting set-up. I then teach the recpient how to grow using what I built and/or designed (the recpient pays for the parts used etc). This also includes cuttings or more usually plant starts so they have plant material for mom's etc.

Unless you are in a county that uses sqft/canopy to gauge size of the permitted grow and not plant count my method of SOG, put's it in the illegal catergory in a legal state.

I'm in a not mmj state in the NE, had some snow this AM, but nothing like the midwest had been hit with. I am close enought to travel to NJ and RI that have gone/going mmj. It's just too bad they seem to want to use plant counts.

My philosophy of growing indoors has been; indoors using any form of artifical lighting, the most productive way to grow is SOG. If you've seen my album showing the construction of "fogfognugen" or the thread I indroduced the first experiment run of it, each tray is 136 plants or 276 per/foggy. In the partnered grow I am envolved in there are now 2 fogfognugen's going in the same room, 1 using TI LED lights and the other PSMHs. From a legal perspective, I maintain that as long as each tray has cuts from one clone mother source then that tray is really just 1 plant with 138 branches. Biologically there is no way to prove different, tho my lawyer says that probably would not hold up in court. But I've been so illegal for so long I don't know if I care.

BTW, Willie has been a great advocate for mmj, just hope the last bust in Texas goes well for him.
OM

yes sir, Central Cali. There are plusses and minuses just as anywhere else. I tend to chuckle when I hear people from other locales speak of wishing they were in Cali like it was the land of milk and honey. Plusses are individual preferences and freedoms, imo. I love that I live in a dessert, within 30 minutes can be in the Sierras, and within 2 1/2 hours be on the Pacific Ocean. Just today, I travelled to Fresno(county seat) to exchange ideas with a friend and drop off a couple clones for him. On the way to his place, a Fresno County Sheriff's Deputy pulled alongside me at the stoplight, looked over, saw my two clones in the center console cupholder, smiled and went on his way. Unfortunately there's a LOT of drama in the county regarding MMJ.

So, according to my county laws I am allowed to have up to 5 patients under me(whose plant count I will grow and supply them with good meds). Cali Supreme Court says we are each allowed 99 plants. I plan to stay well within the limits.

I plan to run a rotating grow, I think similar to a SOG set-up, in which I will have four rooms/tents, homemade of course. I will dedicate a closet to my mothers and seedlings, 1 tent for veg, 1 tent for experimenting, and the remainder of the room dedicated to flowering. I believe that with this set-up I can harvest once a month +/-. With the amount of meds produced, we should be able to not only all be well stocked and make edibles, but also do business with a local dispensary who is, I believe, on the right side of the fight. Program for terminally ill and low-income patients to receive 1g a day/7 a wk for free. For those that aren't dirt poor, there is a sliding scale, and for those that have not time or experience to grow and are legal MMJ patients in good careers, well they end up paying the bills.

I want to have a similar set-up to theirs to be able to cover cost, but I want to drop the price of indoor medicine for our local area to $50/oz or less. The only way to achieve this is to use my set-up as an educational resource and as you do, teach a man to fish. THIS is my goal.

I will HAVE to switch from soil to hydro/aero for the simple reason of having to deal with all that dirt. If I and 5 members each dedicate 90 of our allowed 99(not saying it'll be that big) that is a total of 180 plants per harves, every month. 30 from each card in each stage of growth. Too much dirt. Obviously, I'll have to work my way up to the end goal and that will take time, but in the end, I'm sure it will be worth it to help so many people become self-sufficient.

[bigsby]

The better way is to use a far red source just before lights on and again at lights off. I better describe it on another thread. I'll see what I can do to find it and maybe link it (I'm not computer literate) or you can seach here for it.
OM

Hey OM, nice dial back on the dialogue. I appreciate all the learning that goes on here. Thanks.

Can I ask you to detail the far red effects a bit more? What lights do you use, how long do you have them on. Is the lights-on for red considered part of the 12/12 schedule or in addition? Do you run them during the veg cycle too? Or perhaps just point me in the right direction. I'm happy to read and learn. I'll also run some searches and post up anything I find.

I have a few weeks travel for work coming up but after that I'm going to start my second LED run using 2x st8s 150w 3w / diode bars. I was a bit disappointed with my first run. The plants stretched quite a bit and results reflected poor plant development. Now too be sure, this was likely due in part to my own short comings as a n00b indoor farmer. I am a recovering outdoor farmer (those were the days). I'm confident I can dial it in but looking for any strategies to help with the stretch.

Regards.

[RAINHAZE]

fascinating

Absolutely! ..glued to the seat here.

[oldmac]

Hey Bigsby, and Rainhaze and budlover13 and any lurkers,

Even tho I read and learned about 730nm far red light in relation to photochrome, I was not sure how to apply it to a grow. In talking to a neighbor who has a few acres under glass, he told me that he uses far red light as a supplemental light for certian ornamentals he grows to keep down plant stretch. He referred to them as "trigger" lights, saying that it "woke up" the plant in the AM and at the end of the day it helped to control stem stretch if the plants saw far red last. Wasn't sure he was right, I could not fine literature or anything about it. Just recently came across the pdf file I posted above, even tho it was not a trigger deal, the increased far red ratio to red confirmed at least the stretch part might be true, scientifically.

I originally used Phillips clear red incandescent party bulbs because of thier far red output. I have switch, on Dogsnova's recommendation, to GE Reveal incandescent Halogen bulbs 'cause the far red output is greater. Btw they cost abt $5 dollars for a 100w, but they make other sizes.

In my personal grow they are timed to come on abt 1/2hr before my main light comes on and then stay on abt 1/2hr after the light is on. They are programed to come on again 1/2hr before the main light goes off and stay on for an additional 1/2 hr. I still run the same 12hr photoperiod for the main light. BTW in the interest of full disclosure, during the middle of the photoperiod for 3hr (high noon) I use supplemental UVb in the form of Zilla Desert 50 UVb T5s 2' NO (usually 18w ea) but driven by an IceCap ballast to give 40w ea.

I saw that internode spacing decreased and plants where shorter, one strain that usually finished abt 18" now finished 14-16", bud weight was abt the same just a shorter more compact cola.

To put it all in perspective, The main light is a led/T5 hybred that has 420w of red Cree LEDs (240 of them) and 320w of 2' T5s VHO (8 of them) for a total of 740w. The trigger lights are 200w inc halogens (2- 100w) and the UVb is 160w (4- 40w).

Hope this does not sound too confusing. :cool:
OM

[bigsby]

Not confusing at all. I did see the bit about the Reveal lights earlier or in a different thread. So do you run an 11/13 light schedule 12/12 + 1/2 hour + 1/2 hour?

I'm going to try another run with my current setup to see if I can account for my own shortcomings but I have this tucked away for future reference in the event that I get the same results. I'd like to make this LED setup work. I have heat issues plus I like the lower power consumption. I also hate the idea of an HID burning away while I'm away from the property. It just scares me a bit.

Peace.

[WashougalWonder]

I am curious how many timers you need to do this? Is it a wiring maze? Is it a fixture maze? Do you control by computer or do you manually do this over and over?

[oldmac]

@ Bigsby,

The main light is 12/12, but you would consider the 1/2hr on each end part of the photoperiod so it is actually 13/11.
Thank you for recognizing I dailed it back. The line by line responce was me pissed.

@ Wonder,

I have a shit load of wiring and it's not just the lights.:cool: I've tried to be very neat about everything, but even then there is a bunch of stuff running around but it is usually secured to walls or the two panels (plywood rectangles) that are mounted on the walls.

One panel I call the control panel, it has 2 double gang electric recptacles mounted on it. Plus 4 Intermatic mechanical timers, that are normally hard wired but have black electric wire pigtails with 3 of them that plug into the outlets. This allows me to pull the plug if I need to work on anything. But it does srew up the timer, tho not hard to reset)
1st timer controls the main led/T5 hybred light.
2nd timer controls the far red lights.
3rd timer controls the UVb lights
4th timer.....is hard wired to the other panel where a dc/110v inverter is mounted. This controls emergency lighting that is 2 small floro lights (like from a camping light) that run on 12v, this ckt has a 12v photocell that makes the emergency lights come on should I loose power during the photoperiod. BUT only during that time.
The first 3 timers also have a disconnect ckt so that if power is lost for more then abt 1 minute and then comes back the timers stay dead and the lights stay off, so I don't get fooled into thinking everything is ok, when in reality the timers are now off sequence by any lenght of time.

The second panel has the above mentioned inverter, a 12v battery charger, 2-250w power supplies for LED side of light, 3-IceCap electronic ballasts for the floros (2 for main light T5s 4 lights ea, 1 for UVb floros 4 lights). The floro wiring was/is the hardest to keep neat, each ballast has 9 small guage wire harneses (molex connectors on each end) and each have extension harneses.

Since it is a rotating garden, if the electric was to be off for 15mins or more the plants are trash. So the "ferris wheel" has been modified with a dc motor and runs off the battery (12v deep cycle). The plants in wheel are feed via a low pressure pump, near the top of the wheel to the bottoms of 4" RW delta blocks, feed sequence is done with a mechanical micro switch as each set of blocks are under the feed tubes. There is also a inline timer, not mounted, to control the feed events.

It's really pretty simple.:D [typed that with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek]
OM

[tikiroom]

OM, to simplify things a bit I use the digital timers from Home Depot. They cost around $16, if my memory serves me right. They have a built in battery backup that is charged when there is power. The internal battery will last for days, so when power is restored your light schedule will just pick up where it should. It has twenty programmable settings, and can be adjusted in one minute intervals and days of the week.

I just went ahead and posting a link to it. Looks like my memory is getting worse with old age they are actually $16.98. :D
GE 15 amp 7-Day Plug-In Dual-Outlet Digital Timer - 15079 at The Home Depot (http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xglZarcd/R-100685884/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053)

[HolmbyG]

I'm using a light (100 watt low temp) with reflective panneling, currently I have five seeds that are in soil underneath the light of Jack Herer strains. I'd like to know optimal height for the specific strain, I'm keeping them all on a 24/0 light schedule at least for the first couple of weeks, any feedback on the Jack Herer would be much appreciated as I only have experience growing OG Kush and and hybrids, (G Mack - Orange Crack and OG):rastasmoke:

[azdesertdweller]

[FONT="Century Gothic"]Oh hell,this is my first grow,and you guys got me wondering if i should go back to school:wtf:...24/0 20/4 18/6....all you pro's got your "evidence"...i just wanna grow half decent weed,thats tastes worth a shit...i'm stickin with the basics...blast germinating seeds with 24/0,at 3500 lumins(2-100 w cfl's)....any growth above 3 in,upping to 7,000 lumins....and going to 18/6.....soon as they get healthy enough,2-3+ft....12/12......gonna attempt to clone any likely prospects...i've had 18 seeds under 3500 lumins 24/0 for 2 1/2 days now....7 are showing root shoots...gonna cull this 18 down to 4...and work from there....you guys must be puttin out some super potent,killer tasting stuff...i'd be happy if this bag weed seed turns out at all..:S2:my only question is,so far, how long can u veg a plant for?i wanna try doubling or more my growth,pinching?how many times?i know it's the 4th node(branching) for first clip...then how long 'til next pinch?...o.k....i've noobed long enough...soon as i get greenage,i'll figure out how to post pics...:smokin:

[gypski]

[FONT="Century Gothic"]Oh hell,this is my first grow,and you guys got me wondering if i should go back to school:wtf:...24/0 20/4 18/6....all you pro's got your "evidence"...i just wanna grow half decent weed,thats tastes worth a shit...i'm stickin with the basics...blast germinating seeds with 24/0,at 3500 lumins(2-100 w cfl's)....any growth above 3 in,upping to 7,000 lumins....and going to 18/6.....soon as they get healthy enough,2-3+ft....12/12......gonna attempt to clone any likely prospects...i've had 18 seeds under 3500 lumins 24/0 for 2 1/2 days now....7 are showing root shoots...gonna cull this 18 down to 4...and work from there....you guys must be puttin out some super potent,killer tasting stuff...i'd be happy if this bag weed seed turns out at all..:S2:my only question is,so far, how long can u veg a plant for?i wanna try doubling or more my growth,pinching?how many times?i know it's the 4th node(branching) for first clip...then how long 'til next pinch?...o.k....i've noobed long enough...soon as i get greenage,i'll figure out how to post pics...:smokin:

this one's easy....you can veg a plant as long as you keep it in the veg state. i.e. more then 14 hours of light, natural or man-made. :D The rest is dealer's choice. :stoned:

[azdesertdweller]

have you people ever considered the fact that,while this plant will respond to a wide variety of care,in many ,many different ways,you also have to figure in the massive amount of variables to take in account....elevation,atmospheric conditions,(pollution)location,humidity,and on and on and on..i don't think one grower will ever have the same,methods or results,as the next....i.e. you have ,and always will have conflicting information...most people will take bits and pieces of this info and develop their own formula that works best for them....the more people discuss pro's and cons here,will give others more and more choices to make for their grow...leading to more pro and con discussions...viscous circle?:wtf:...i say keep it up...i'm light years ahead of my last grow:thumbsup: