Stretching During Flowering

[bobhead]

Hi, I need advice on how to keep nodes compact during flowering.
My plants were very compact in veg. However, when I switched to 12/12, they went from 12 inches to about 30 inches in a week! I kept the lights super close to try and prevent stretch, but they kept hitting the lights and I had to move it up every day. I have a 400w HPS growing in DWC.

I have a couple in soil and those hardly stretched at all.

My goal is to produce massive colas.

[budlover13]

I experienced the same stretch on my first grow and decided to put 1/4" wooden dowels around the perimeter of their pot and tied to them, kinda like LST except late. Grew spiral looking plants that each had 3-5 nice colas.

[oldmac]

Hey there bobhead,

Most mj plants will stretch or grow 2-3 times thier vegged height during flowering.

You can keep them shorter during flowering using far red (730nm) light supplemation. A good economical source of far red are incandescent halogen bulbs.

In my personal grow, the far red comes on 1/2 hr before my main lights kick in and stay on another 1/2 hr. At the end of the photoperiod they come on again 1/2 hr before lights out and stay on 1/2hr after the main lights go off.

I recently came across a scientific paper that basicly said that just 15 minutes of far red at lights out works. I have not experimented with that, yet.

OM

[bobhead]

How can I encourage compact flowering nodes.
My plants stretched so much, there would be long spindly branches with a dinky ass flower up top and a couple half ways down the branch.

I'm thinking about LST, but would I be able to achieve a giant cola. Or does it cause a bunch of medium sized tops.

[budlover13]

You can get multiple colas with LST. Not HUGE, but 4 main colas usually outweigh one giant one.

[oldmac]

How can I encourage compact flowering nodes.
My plants stretched so much, there would be long spindly branches with a dinky ass flower up top and a couple half ways down the branch.

I'm thinking about LST, but would I be able to achieve a giant cola. Or does it cause a bunch of medium sized tops.

Try reading my post.

[bobhead]

You have seen noticeable differences with that method?

[Rusty Trichome]

You have seen noticeable differences with that method?
Nah, he's just an experienced grower trying to get you to experiment for him. :wtf:
There are seed selection techniques, trimming techniques, chemical growth restrictors, twist-tie training techniques, etherial "moon" techniques, prayer, numerology...just to name a few. :thumbsup:

Different strains have different growth habits.
Usually:
Sativa dominate hybrids will have a more radical PMS cycle early after the switch to 12/12. (Pre Motherhood Stretch) After the initial vertical stretch, they'll slow down to a crawl and start filling-in. Slow but steady.

Indica dominate hybrids will have a more compact PMS cycle, and will fill-in rather quickly.

[oldmac]

Damn you Rusty, I thought I had hooked another one, was about to reel him into an experiment and now you spooked him! ;)
Love the "PMS" btw, you need to get that copyrighted!

Hey Bobhead,

Yes it does work, but it is a very difficult to explain why. I'm almost sorry I mentioned it, since it is kinda cutting edge stuff. In thinking about it there may be other ways to achieve tighter nodes, that can be explained easier.

The main reason plants seem to stretch more under HPS, is the lack of blue light in there output spectrum. Simply adding some CFLs or floro tubes to your HPS can cut that stretch down.

Recently, during a UVb experiment I oversaw (there's a thread in Advance Techniques) the main light source was 150w HPS in the grow chambers. Since the UVb we were using was in the form of a 20w CFL, the total watage used was 170w. To keep the non-UVb chambers on equal footing we used a 23w 6500k CFL with the 150 HPS. These chambers went from beginning of veg thru flower. Even tho we grew these plants larger then I normally grow, I was impressed how compact the plants staid. The strech during flower was at or slighly less then 2x plant's vegged hgt, for 5 various strains.

I grow single cola, SOG size (finished hgt less then 18") in all kind's of grows; aero/fog, rockwool and even dirt (well Pro-mix). Here's a pic of a plant in pro-mix in a oversized 6" dia pot, abt 4 weeks into a 8 week flower that was abt 10" tall at pic time that finished around 12". It's a NL cross that oudoors goes abt 6-8' tall, does about 4' normally indoors, but was grown small using floro supplemental lighting.

[bobhead]

Ah, I see. Not really. But very interesting.
So basically add 6500K spectrum and far red.

What if you started flowering under veg lights and then switched to the HPS later on.

[Slevinkal]

...prayer


PMS

:S1:

[canniwhatsis]

Damn you Rusty, I thought I had hooked another one, was about to reel him into an experiment and now you spooked him! ;)
Love the "PMS" btw, you need to get that copyrighted!

Hey Bobhead,

Yes it does work, but it is a very difficult to explain why. I'm almost sorry I mentioned it, since it is kinda cutting edge stuff. In thinking about it there may be other ways to achieve tighter nodes, that can be explained easier.

The main reason plants seem to stretch more under HPS, is the lack of blue light in there output spectrum. Simply adding some CFLs or floro tubes to your HPS can cut that stretch down.

Recently, during a UVb experiment I oversaw (there's a thread in Advance Techniques) the main light source was 150w HPS in the grow chambers. Since the UVb we were using was in the form of a 20w CFL, the total watage used was 170w. To keep the non-UVb chambers on equal footing we used a 23w 6500k CFL with the 150 HPS. These chambers went from beginning of veg thru flower. Even tho we grew these plants larger then I normally grow, I was impressed how compact the plants staid. The strech during flower was at or slighly less then 2x plant's vegged hgt, for 5 various strains.

I grow single cola, SOG size (finished hgt less then 18") in all kind's of grows; aero/fog, rockwool and even dirt (well Pro-mix). Here's a pic of a plant in pro-mix in a oversized 6" dia pot, abt 4 weeks into a 8 week flower that was abt 10" tall at pic time that finished around 12". It's a NL cross that oudoors goes abt 6-8' tall, does about 4' normally indoors, but was grown small using floro supplemental lighting.

Good info there, Thanks OM! :thumbsup: Now I've got some playing to do,.... not that I have any real Runaway strains that I've flowered yet,.... but I suspect I will in the near future, and anything that can help pack in the density on my blueberry would be good IMO.

[oldmac]

Ah, I see. Not really. But very interesting.
So basically add 6500K spectrum and far red.

Just start by adding the 6500k floro and see what happens. Then you can advance to trying the far red.

What if you started flowering under veg lights and then switched to the HPS later on.

If it is possible, keep running your veg lights (MH or floro) and add your HPS. A good way to get tighter growth is to use both MH/HPS together.


Hey canniwhatsis,

Always worth trying new things, you'll find it is not always about the amount of light but the quaility of the light. And big quanitities of quaility light can't be beat. :D
OM

[bobhead]

I'll definitely leave some daylight bulbs in on this next grow.
My autos that were supposedly only to grow about 24" are about 3 feet tall.
They go ape shit in hydroponics.

I even pinched the main branch.

I won't grow autos anymore. I think regular plants will give me more control over its growth.

Are their any nutrients that can help with stretching.

[oldmac]

Not nutrients, but they do make a chem additive, called vertical growth inhibitor.

It's available retail as Humbolt's product Bushmaster.

OM

[bobhead]

Thanks I'll do a search on it.

[TANKJR]

I give my girls Motrin, kindness, and chocolate for PMS....oh wait....ya'll were talking about plants, huh? Nevermind... ;)

[WashougalWonder]

Nah, he's just an experienced grower trying to get you to experiment for him. :wtf:

LMAO, good one, you been quiet lately.



I'll definitely leave some daylight bulbs in on this next grow.
That could actually increase the stretch. I have removed all blue from my light spectrum in flower. I tried the Uvb experiment and it did increase trichomes, but it also made the buds become less compact....was only using the last 2 weeks.

OM - That schedule sounds complicated and expensive...is it?

[oldmac]

[QUOTE=WashougalWonder;2164433

That could actually increase the stretch. I have removed all blue from my light spectrum in flower. I tried the Uvb experiment and it did increase trichomes, but it also made the buds become less compact....was only using the last 2 weeks.

OM - That schedule sounds complicated and expensive...is it?[/QUOTE]

If the daylight bulbs he's referring to are CFLs or Floro tubes, then there is a bunch of blue in those, and it will help to hold down strech. (during the first half of flower) Note: the blue source lights will need to be closer to the plants then the other light (HPS) or other flower light.

Not expensive or complicated to do, just put the far red bulbs on a simple push pin timer. Set two- times on/off, per light cycle. Most important from what I've read is that 1/2hr of far red after the other lights turn on. The other part of turning them 1/2 hr before is just something someone told me, who grows all types of plants in a glass house operation.

Leaving these far red bulbs may contribute to plant stretch, but if done in proper ratios of red (660nm) and far red (730nm) it will not. But this I leave to you, if you want to experiment.:D

I thought I posted this before, but this is a good spot.
It's a tech paper, that deals with the issue. It's for chyrsanthemums or such but is applicable.
OM

[WashougalWonder]

Thanks OM. I have so many experiments going now I need to chill and let some finish, but maybe in the future.

[drudown11]

Not nutrients, but they do make a chem additive, called vertical growth inhibitor.

It's available retail as Humbolt's product Bushmaster.

OM

which works very well. I use it on my indoors grows and it works wonders keeping my plants short in my closet.

[bobhead]

I'd be using the 6500K bulbs.
Are there any bulbs out there that are higher than 6500K?

Or do we resort to LED at that point.

[Storm Crow]

I don't know if this has been tried with cannabis......

Tipsy flowers don't tip over (http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/March06/drunk.flowers.ssl.html)

March 31, 2006
Why tipsy flowers don't tip over: Booze stunts stem and leaves, but doesn't affect blossoms, study finds
By Susan S. Lang

Those paperwhites and other daffodils sure could use a drink -- a little whiskey, vodka gin or tequila could keep them from falling over.
flowers showing stunted growth due to alcohol
Provided
From left: Untreated paperwhites grown in water, plants grown in 2 percent, 4 percent, 6 percent, 8 percent and 10 percent ethanol.

A new Cornell study finds that a touch of booze is a great way to keep certain houseplants from getting too tall by stunting their growth. "Dilute solutions of alcohol -- though not beer or wine -- are a simple and effective way to reduce stem and leaf growth," said William Miller, professor of horticulture and director of the Flower Bulb Research Program at Cornell.

"When the liquor is properly used, the paperwhites we tested were stunted by 30 to 50 percent, but their flowers were as large, fragrant and long-lasting as usual," added Miller, whose new study on how alcohol inhibits houseplant growth will be published in the April issue of HortTechnology, a peer-reviewed journal of horticulture.

Miller will be working this spring to see if a little booze works for amaryllis and such vegetables as tomatoes and peppers, as well. His work with tulips so far has been promising but not yet definitive: "I think with a little jiggering -- no pun intended -- of the system, the method will work for tulips, though I think it will not be as simple as with paperwhites."

Last year, Miller received a call from The New York Times about a reader who had written to the garden editor claiming that gin had prevented some paperwhite narcissi from growing too tall and floppy and asked if it was because of some "essential oil" in the gin.

Intrigued that dilute alcohol might act as a growth retardant, Miller and former Cornell student Erin Finan '05 conducted experiments with ethanol (1, 5, 10 and 25 percent) and "Ziva" paperwhite narcissi (Narcissus tazetta), and later with about a dozen kinds of alcohol, including dry gin, unflavored vodka, whiskey, white rum, gold tequila, mint schnapps, red and white wine and pale lager beer, on paperwhites.

"While solutions greater than 10 percent alcohol were toxic, solutions between 4 and 6 percent alcohol stunted the paperwhites effectively," said Miller.

To control stem and leaf growth, he suggests waiting until paperwhites or other daffodil shoots are several inches long to drain the water and replace it with a solution of 4 to 6 percent alcohol -- hard liquor or rubbing alcohol.

To get a 5 percent solution from 80-proof liquor, which is 40 percent alcohol (such as gin, vodka, whiskey, rum or tequila), add one part liquor to seven parts water. To use rubbing alcohol (isopropyl alcohol), which is 70 percent alcohol, dilute one part with 10-11 parts water.

Why does booze stunt plant growth? "We don't know, but we're working on this," Miller writes in a fact sheet available on the Web called "Pickling Your Paperwhites" (available at Flower Bulb Research Program (http://www.hort.cornell.edu/miller/pubs.html)).

"We think it simply might be water stress, that is, the alcohol makes it more difficult for the plant to absorb water, so the plant suffers a slight lack of water, enough to reduce leaf and stem growth, but not enough to affect flower size or flower longevity."

But don't serve beer or wine to plants -- the sugars wreak havoc on their health.

[bobhead]

Interesting article, unfortunately I don't have a test subject.
Anybody with some botany skills want to comment?