Plants are dieing, please help!

[sum1cull911]

Hydroponic DWC Setup
Grown in rockwool with rocks on top(recently had algae on top of rock wool, thats why the rocks are on top, I think algae was raising my Ph to 8 every 12 hours or so... I recently cleaned and refilled added new nutes)
Lights 18/6
5 24" fluorescent plant lights
1 18" fluorescent light
1 18" Blacklight
ALL 3" From Plants
Lights cooled by fans
Fans on plants
3 Air pumps running on high 24/7
Temp 90
Humidity 60%
Water temp 75-80
PH 5.8-6.3
Nutes 3 part GH 1:1:1
Plants 2 weeks old
Supplemental CO2 @ 900ppm
TDS 563
Everything is extremely steady, very little flucuation in any numbers except for the ph problem i noted above

[headshake]

what's up 911? don't you have a post in the plant problems section already for this problem? why post one in the growing information section? people respond to posts at their leisure.

anyhow, i see you are in rockwool. did you presoak it first in properly pH'd water? rockwool can cause pH to run up.

your rez water temps are a little high. i'm a dirt farmer, but i think 70F is a good temp. i'm sure somebody else will chime in (perhpas cigarettes42?) this high temp could be contributing to the algae problem.

what are you using for your rez? is it clear or opaque? are you running in a sealed room?


-shake

[sum1cull911]

yeah sorry, wasnt sure if i posted in the right place, so i posted here too...

Yes, I presoaked the rockwool.
I noticed my res. temps are a little high as well. The roots are fluourishing though, so I think my thermometer might be off. I bought it real cheap on ebay from hong kong. Im using a gallon tuberware container with aluminum tape around it to prevent light from getting in. Everything is contained within a 55gallon aquarium.

[redaaron]

From this pics alone I would say it's a ph lockout. The plants need to stay 5.5.-6.5 to see any new green growth. This plant will bounce back. Also, 90degree temps are way too high, so think about exhausting some of that heat. It has to be done.

Those two things alone will make your plant look like that. Also , what kind of "plant" bulbs are you using? Are you using "grow bulbs?" I have found the 6500K color temperature DAYLIGHT bulbs work much better as I think they are brighter and have a better color temperature for vegetative growth.

And by exhausting the heat from the room, probably by just leaving the room open will decrease your water temps as well giving you better results in what might seem as slow growth.

Like headshake asked, "Are you running a sealed room?"

And I'm curious as to what kind of ballasts you are running.

[sum1cull911]

From this pics alone I would say it's a ph lockout. The plants need to stay 5.5.-6.5 to see any new green growth. This plant will bounce back. Also, 90degree temps are way too high, so think about exhausting some of that heat. It has to be done.

Those two things alone will make your plant look like that. Also , what kind of "plant" bulbs are you using? Are you using "grow bulbs?" I have found the 6500K color temperature DAYLIGHT bulbs work much better as I think they are brighter and have a better color temperature for vegetative growth.

And by exhausting the heat from the room, probably by just leaving the room open will decrease your water temps as well giving you better results in what might seem as slow growth.

Like headshake asked, "Are you running a sealed room?"

And I'm curious as to what kind of ballasts you are running.



First off, I Aapreciate all the responses...

I was assuming it was ph lockout so i have been keeping the ph at 5.8. From what I've been reading though, with supplemental CO2, 85 to low 90's are alright, plus the plants seem to love it. But I'm using GE Fresh & Saltwater Aqua bulbs... 5, 24" bulbs and 2, 18" bulbs... no ballasts. Plants are growing in a 55 gallon aquarium with air tight, custom-made hood. 5 of the bulbs are installed on that hood with plexi-glass covering them (lights are enclosed in the hood) and 2 computer fans exhausting the heat from those lights. (The way I have it setup, there is very little heat coming from those 5 fixtures, if any at all.) I do have a heat lamp (thats how im getting my heat in there) placed on the OUTSIDE of the aquarium facing in next to the plants, NOT on them. I have the 2 18" lights hanging on the side of the aquarium, hitting the plants from the side. I have 2 computer fans that run on a timer at night to exhaust heat and CO2.

Does anyone know why the tips are bent down on the new growth, there is no yellowing or browning, the tips are just pointing down...?

[Gatekeeper777]

Temp is 90 Holy crap bring it down to about 75. change water bring your PH to 6.5 trim off all yellow and dead leaves. That's what I would do.

[sum1cull911]

Temp is 90 Holy crap bring it down to about 75. change water bring your PH to 6.5 trim off all yellow and dead leaves. That's what I would do.

Temp is 90 because I am supplementing CO2
Water has been changed, once a week.
PH 5.8
Leaves and dead matter have been trimmed already.

[Gatekeeper777]

I try to keep pmy PH to about 6-6.8 Your water may be too sour.

[sum1cull911]

I raised it to 6.3. Thanks for the advice.

[redaaron]

First off, I Aapreciate all the responses...

I was assuming it was ph lockout so i have been keeping the ph at 5.8. From what I've been reading though, with supplemental CO2, 85 to low 90's are alright, plus the plants seem to love it. But I'm using GE Fresh & Saltwater Aqua bulbs... 5, 24" bulbs and 2, 18" bulbs... no ballasts. Plants are growing in a 55 gallon aquarium with air tight, custom-made hood. 5 of the bulbs are installed on that hood with plexi-glass covering them (lights are enclosed in the hood) and 2 computer fans exhausting the heat from those lights. (The way I have it setup, there is very little heat coming from those 5 fixtures, if any at all.) I do have a heat lamp (thats how im getting my heat in there) placed on the OUTSIDE of the aquarium facing in next to the plants, NOT on them. I have the 2 18" lights hanging on the side of the aquarium, hitting the plants from the side. I have 2 computer fans that run on a timer at night to exhaust heat and CO2.

Does anyone know why the tips are bent down on the new growth, there is no yellowing or browning, the tips are just pointing down...?

I'm very curious about your Saltwater aqua lights. Are these the 9325K light spectrum? I'm having a hard time finding exactly the ones you have. From what I read on that spectrum and aquarium use was that it had deeper light penetration I'm assuming in water. I once thought about an aquarium grow so this is all very interesting to me. Is the aquarium glass or plastic? And what's the ambient temp of the room? Also what kind of intake do you have? Cool setup on the hood btw.

[sum1cull911]

I'm very curious about your Saltwater aqua lights. Are these the 9325K light spectrum? I'm having a hard time finding exactly the ones you have. From what I read on that spectrum and aquarium use was that it had deeper light penetration I'm assuming in water. I once thought about an aquarium grow so this is all very interesting to me. Is the aquarium glass or plastic? And what's the ambient temp of the room? Also what kind of intake do you have? Cool setup on the hood btw.

I believe 9325K is what they are. They produce more red, blue and green light. I'm aware that the plants can't see the green though. The aquarium is a normal 55g all-glass aquarium. The temp of the room where the aquarium is around 70-75 degrees. The intake/exhaust is incorporated into the hood, but is seperate from the light system. That way I can constantly cool the lights without the lights producing too much heat and affecting temp or humidity. While the other fans control temp/humidity within the tank. I will post a pic of it tonight.
:jointsmile:
Thanks for your interest!!

[sum1cull911]

I transplanted them into thier own containers, with 2 air stones in each. The root system is INSANELY HUGE. I will post pics later.

[sum1cull911]

Here's my setup. Notice the hermit crabs at the bottom. They enjoy the weather! There's 20 of them in there.

[sum1cull911]

:jointsmile:MALE OR FEMALE? Can I even tell this early? They are almost 3 weeks old.:jointsmile:

[redaaron]

I've attached a photo showing what spectrums of light are best absorbed by photosynthesis using chlorophyll A and chlorophyll B. Using Kelvin we can use this formula to determine light spectrum in nm (nanometers.)

3,000,0000/K temp = nm

So at 9325K the math come to 321nm.

So, from the attached graph you can see that the plant is absorbing the most light at the two peaks for blue and red. I agree that blue and red light emitted from your bulbs might sound ideal but I'm not sure as they fall anywhere near the absorption levels as a normal 6500K Daylight bulb would do. I've haven't seen too much evidence so I'll leave it up to you or anyone else that knows a bit more to lend me advice.

The bulbs many people use (6500K) fall in the 462nm range. You can see they are a little closer to those peaks between chloroA and chloroB in the blue spectrum.

[sum1cull911]

I've attached a pic from the box the bulb came in. Seems to show lots of orange in the 610nm range and blue range in the 430nm range. Ihaven't done too much research on lights so I'm not quite sure. The plants are thriving in it though, at least the new growth is, lol...

[redaaron]

Looking good. I did some more research on your lights and mine as well. There is so much contradictory evidence around the net about photosynthesis response. Comparing the 6500K and 9325K, however, seems like your emit a bit more wider blue spectrum than an equivalent brand daylight bulb. So more power to you. :jointsmile:

It's opening a whole new can of worms for to educate myself on light spectrum emission, but that's another story. So here I am eager to see some results! Looking forward to following your grow!

[sum1cull911]

Looking forward to having someone as excited as I am! I'll keep updating. :thumbsup:

[sum1cull911]

Do plants double in size when put into flowering? If so, I think I'll have to flower soon because I'm running out of room! Does anyone know if it is too early to flower? They are about 6 inches and really bushy.

[middieman440]

at the 4th-5th set of branches inspect the tops for signs of pre-flowers,they will show before you put in 12/12,but its difficult for some people to see them,white hairs are female and a stalk n ball are male...and indoor they will stretch out so you can put then in flower now but it may not kick in for a week or 2,start feeding them higher p-k and cut back on nitrogen,this will trigger the plant to start flowering as some say...

good luck

[sum1cull911]

at the 4th-5th set of branches inspect the tops for signs of pre-flowers,they will show before you put in 12/12,but its difficult for some people to see them,white hairs are female and a stalk n ball are male...and indoor they will stretch out so you can put then in flower now but it may not kick in for a week or 2,start feeding them higher p-k and cut back on nitrogen,this will trigger the plant to start flowering as some say...

good luck

Will the "signs of pre-flowers" show this early? They are only 3 weeks old.

[redaaron]

plants generally grow about 3x their size after flipping the light cycle to 12/12. So a 6" plant would grow to about 1.5 ft if not more. You can even hold off switching the nutes any until you see pistils emerge. When you do flip to flower expect to see fast growth results then they will continue to grow slowly while getting fatter in the buds. The key really is the light change. Takes give or take a week or more and you'll see the pre-flowers and then the flowers will start to fill-in.

What kind of lights are you going to run for flowering?

[sum1cull911]

Figured I'd just keep the ones I have. They seem to do a good job. Plus I'm out of dough.

[redaaron]

You can flower for a bit on those flourescents, a few weeks even, but if you want thick dense fat buds I'd definitely think about adding a HPS system. It's gonna give your plants the perfect amount of light energy while penetrating deeper in the canopy as well.

I've seen a 400w hps system for about 150 w/ shipping. A 250w might get you by but I say why spend a third of your money when you can just go ahead and save that towards something twice as effecient.

So not knowing whether you have 1-3 females, if any at all, you MIGHT be able to get away with a 250w rig. I'm a bit out of advice though seeing as your tank dimensions because generally HPS lights aren't long like your tubes and put out a centered light emission. I've seen some people go T-5 and do pretty darn well. Since, I don't have much exp. or read knowledge I really couldn't say. Also, I don't know how the plants will react or not react towards just blue light. They tend to favor red colors for flowering but also that's something I need to take a look at and get back with you about since light energy is light energy but I'm no scientist just an informed observer.

Also, on another note at this stage (flowering) your plants will begin to uptake a LOT of water. So you'll want to keep a constant eye on water levels or decide to maybe go for a trough like bucket system. It really your call. Your plants your call. You might also want to throw some mylar around either the inside of your tank or the outside. Being that your using a glass tank it will convect heat. Putting it on the outside will keep that heat and lose SOME reflectivity and on the inside your blocking the light from heating the glass. That will help if you decide to stick with the flourecent lighting. If you go hps, then no worries rock on.

Nice pics btw, everything is looking very good!

[sum1cull911]

Ive got 2 36inch vho t5s sitting around, but no fixture for them. If i see them start to suffer, ill add those. But ive put enough money into everything. With my luck theyll all be males anyway. Ive noticed that they suck up a ton of water already. Thanks for the heads up though, im sure ill be filling them up twice as much by the time they flower.

Aside from the change in nutes, and length of daylight vs nite... is there anything else i need to know about starting to flower?

[redaaron]

Have you thought about LST? Doing this and changing the light cycle now is going to be the saving factor in keeping them short as possible.

Once the plants go into flower, it means they need uninterrupted sleep. Which means NO light can get in your flowering room when the grow lights are off. It's been said that low amounts of light, like moonlight, or even green light will not affect them., but light interference in the dark period will cause the plants to go hermie. So I guess what I need to ask is how do you plan to keep the plants in the dark at "night?"

[polishpollack]

Switching your light cycle to 12 on/ 12 off is what causes them to flower and bud. Did you do anything about the 90 degree temp? Knowing that and looking at your photos, I'd say heat stress is causing the brown spotting. Too hot there. Can't remember if you wrote anything about getting the temp down.

[sum1cull911]

I found out that the high ph was causing nute lock out and thats why the plants were getting brown spots. The temp stays around 90, usually a little under. But the plants are doing great with the added co2 and the high temps. During flowering, I'm going to lower the temps just a little.

[sum1cull911]

I started flowering yesterday, well see how it goes. Here's hoping!:jointsmile:

[redaaron]

good luck! if i had to guess i'd say you have two females. the one on the left and the one on the right. im looking at the purple stems but that's a myth i haven't busted yet. i've only had a few grows so again good luck!

[sum1cull911]

No news yet... I'm really anxious, they're getting realllllllyyyyyy big and I'm running out of room.

[headshake]

No news yet... I'm really anxious, they're getting realllllllyyyyyy big and I'm running out of room.

they are going to double or triple when they go through the stretch. you better get ready. not to mention you are running co2 so....


-shake

[sum1cull911]

Still no news, they're getting huge? if they get too big can I trim them to keep them from growing anymore? dont get me wrong, id love to let em grow, but i only have so much room... still dont know the sex either, only been three days though...

[headshake]

Still no news, they're getting huge? if they get too big can I trim them to keep them from growing anymore? dont get me wrong, id love to let em grow, but i only have so much room... still dont know the sex either, only been three days though...

once in flower you don't want to trim anything. the best you can do is super-crop them. it's basically where you bend the stem over 90 degrees. it will send the hormone auxin to the auxillary bud sites and cause all the small shoots to grow vertical and the main shoot will bend back up to join them.


-shake

[sum1cull911]

once in flower you don't want to trim anything. the best you can do is super-crop them. it's basically where you bend the stem over 90 degrees. it will send the hormone auxin to the auxillary bud sites and cause all the small shoots to grow vertical and the main shoot will bend back up to join them.


-shake



awesome, thanks for the great info! most likely saved me from killing my plant!

[redaaron]

a few suggestions: switch over the the flowering nutes if you haven't already. they carry less nitrogen which should slow down vertical growth. i know i said you COULD wait but it's for the best. also id do about 3/4 strength. if they show signs of underfert then go ahead to full dose.

i did some research on blue vs red lighting, apparently to my forgetfullness, blue encourages foilage growth while red encourages stretching and fruitation.

so, you might think about taking a few lights out and cutting off the CO2 to slow them down. When you do get buds and after a few weeks they begin to thicken up then you should go ahead and reapply the CO2. Id also spend a few extra bucks and swap out a majority of your lights for the 2700K soft whites at that time. Way better red color for growing bigger buds.

[sum1cull911]

well i got some new lights. 3000k should be alright, right? I think thats the lowest you can get in fluorescent tube lights

[redaaron]

yeah 3000k is a-ok! id add them one at a time and eventually end up at a 4:1 ratio red to blue. anyway you want some blue in there.

man i have been doing some reading!! only a days worth of information and I don't pretend to understand any of it yet. it's a good read...
http://boards.cannabis.com/advanced-techniques/173946-uvb-experiment.html lots of good information about lighting/supplemental lighting!

lots of improvement in the led scene as well.

[sum1cull911]

Its been four days since started flowering. The plants have reached the top of the aquarium. Whats the maximum days til I should start seeing signs of sex? I need to get any males out so I have room for the LST with the females.
I cut 2 lights and all co2 until i find out sex. temp has been lowered to 80ish

[redaaron]

damn that's some fast growing bud :stoned:

for me it takes about two weeks, most likely at the very tops of your plants is where the first ones will appear. if all else fails you should pull them out of the aquarium and find a good open closet or room to set everything up in until you have some idea of male or female and how much space you're gonna need. :D

[headshake]

911, how long did you veg for?

-shake

[sum1cull911]

911, how long did you veg for?

-shake

Only a month. I'm guessing your thinking what I've been thinking... whether they're mature enough to start flowering?

[sum1cull911]

So turns out the aquarium grow was not enough room... So I gave them some more room.

[sum1cull911]

apparently the site is having trouble loading pics, ill try later!

[headshake]

Only a month. I'm guessing your thinking what I've been thinking... whether they're mature enough to start flowering?

exactly. they have to "be ready" to flower to flower. if not, they have to catch up first. do you remember if they had alternating nodes, or nodes that were coming out staggered from the main stem, not directly across from one another?


-shake

[sum1cull911]

Yeah, they do... that means they're mature to flower?

[headshake]

Yeah, they do... that means they're mature to flower?

yes sir. this usually occurs around the 5-6th node.


-shake

[sum1cull911]

The plants are on their 7th day flowering... should I see ANYTHING yet?

[redaaron]

You should probably be seeing the stipules already. Very close to these in the v's of your branches you'll start to see either male or female flowers.

I'm sorry your question was "Will I see anything yet?" Yes. You should be seeing the stipules. Some plants take longer than others show flowers or mature.

failed image loading so check the link http://www.gardenscure.com/420/attachments/growth/166741d1145963305-male-ball-female-preflowers-m_and_f.gif

[sum1cull911]

Starting to piss me off that I can't upload photos... Anywho... I am seeing the stipules.... But my leaves are falling off, WHEN I TOUCH THEM! Does that mean they don't love me anymore? LOL... They're turning pale yellow and the whole leaf with stem come off very easily... they kind of feel very soft and look sad/sick. It's only on the older leaves on the bottom too... if i can give more information, please let me know, but the only think i can think of is too much PH up... I think it might be because of my PH-up... but I really am not sure... any help would be great!!!!

[redaaron]

im glad you said it was the ones on the bottom and not the ones on the top. my plants do that too. its actually a good thing. i think its because they dont get much light so the plant figures it for useless and starts to drop them so it can have food for the parts that need it the most , i.e. the new growth.

you do want to watch how much stuff youre adding to your water. cannabis has a certain TDS factor or EC its pretty much the same. Too much stuff in your water and it's too full of crap and blocks it from getting through the veins. its another type of lockout. so dont add too much stuff. usually for me if i want to raise my ph i just add tap water instead. but yes the most important part is keeping the TDS in the correct range just like pH.

[sum1cull911]

So, you don't think it's a nute def.?
The PH up stuff is pretty wicked, I spilt some on my concrete floor and it basically bleached it. That's the only thing I've changed too. My nutes are the 3 part series GH and I've been in the bloom phase now for the past week. I've added the PH up maybe 3 days ago.

[redaaron]

i think its a light deficiency. it's no worries at all. you're going to want to trim a lot of that stuff at the bottom anyway. it's hard to explain for me. the small stuff at the bottom sort of robs the plant of peak productivity since its shaded by your canopy. its still alive, therefore using valuable water and nute resources. So anything and the bottom of your plant is okay to fall off. I think the plant might just be doing what it does best and letting go of what it doesnt need anymore.

[sum1cull911]

Alright sooo... I finally got the 3000k lights installed 2 days ago, after waiting an extremely long time for them through the mail. Then I decided to add some cfl's too. My lights are now this:

-4 24" fluorescent lights at 3000k
-1 24" fluorescent light at 9380k
-2 18" fluorescent light at 9380k
-7 100w cfl @ 2700k


I STILL haven't seen any signs of sex yet. I think it's because I didn't have the 2700k lights installed. Any ideas?
And the "light deficiency" still looks the same. Slow progressing, turning the lower leaves bright pale green. I'll be using a new batch of nutes tomorrow without premixing the PH-up in it.

PS... still can't upload photos? what's up with that?

[redaaron]

congrats on the lights coming in! that sounds like a good amount light especially since i think you're surrounding the plant with beneficial light rather than just one source of light from above.

A completely healthy plant may not lose some of its lower leaves and you are correct there might have been some sort of deficiency as to your nutes. It sounds like a manganese defeciency or iron IIRC but I would still look it up I think there's a section here on the boards for that.

sound off on nutrient strengths and ph and more [updated for 2010] - The Garden's Cure (http://www.gardenscure.com/420/hydroponics/138469-sound-off-nutrient-strengths-ph-more.html)

here's a link to a chart on uptake levels of nutrients at different pH ranges for both soil and hydro. You can see that there is not one perfect level that will uptake all nutrients. This is why many growers allow their ranges to fluctuate. From generally 5.5-6.5 in hydroponic use. However, it is not impossible for cannabis to survive at let's say a 6.3 constant pH level. i also have some gh nutes laying around and I see they do carry all the important macro and micro-nutrients. I couldn't account for differences in genetics as to what ranges are specifically taken up by them but the chart is a good reference point... i just don't know for certain but as for now I'm ok with that. So, depending on your system and your water source, specifically whether your ranges tend to drop or raise while feeding, will tell you how to let them adjust. Simply, if your pH tends to rise you'll start at 5.5 and let it rise to about 6.3 or the other way around if your water drops. That's not for everybody. People are going to have different reasons for pH level changing, like algae or improper dosing to waste/nute buildup . So, just think about things logically. Read your charts, know your pH and EC. Those are the best three rules I can think of for offering advice to others.

Check out the phosphorus scale, very important to producing buds and having a healthy plant. The absorbtion does not start until about 5.8!! So you may want to get a water dropper and manually change your pH throughout the week. I'd say let it sit at 5.5 for the first day (day and a half) after feeding and for the rest of the week let it be something like 6.0. Careful of feeding to much pH up or down, that's why I suggest a dropper it messes with your TDS.

I hope I explained it ok.
As far as the pictures go, it's happening to everyone, so no worries...

[sum1cull911]

:rasta:Even after the endless hours of doing my own research, you always come back with NEW info to me, man. Definitely appreciated!:thumbsup:

As for the "deficiency" the plants are experiencing, I think I'll wait a few days after I start the new batch of water/nutes tomorrow. I'll see if they get healthy, and if they don't I'll know it's the PH-up I've been adding.

[redaaron]

no problem at all, Be sure to only feed once a week and top off the tank when it gets low with properly pH'ed water. If you're using tap it's a good idea to let it sit out (open) for a good two days to let the chlorine evaporate. I believe it lowers solids, not sure, and will harm most plants.

[sum1cull911]

After many weeks... more weeks than normal, I've found out the sex of the plants!!!! I was looking too low on the plants and was stumped on why they weren't showing sex for sooooo long. Can you tell?

[sleeperls93]

Are they all females?? How's flowering coming along?

[sum1cull911]

ALL Females... I was hoping some would be male for the simple fact that I do not have much space in the grow area. Flowering is slow. I'm getting impatient.

[sleeperls93]

Just be patient bro, it will pay off.... you should focus on other things, that way your not constantly thinkiing of your grow, that way time will just fly by, next thing you know, your harvesting..

[sum1cull911]

Pics so far.... slowly getting there.