Budding well, but plants not looking great

[eugenegreen]

Buds look good but I'm getting worried about how the rest of the plants look and the rate that the fan leaves are yellowing. Found some gnats the other day and fogged with Permethrum. Also some kind of scale found on the leaves. Are the bugs causing the yellowing, or do I have some deficiencies also?



Experience level? Novice

Your medium:
.7) Specific brand and type of soil: Mix of Natures Best and Black Gold Potting Soils
.8) Size of container: 5 gallon
.9) Did you use peat pucks (or similar) to root clones or germinate seedlings? no

Your nutrients and water:
10) Source of water? Tap. What's it's ph before adjusting? 6
15) Any additives or tea's? Bat Guano/molasses tea
16) Are your ph levels stable, or do they fluctuate? pretty stable

Your growroom:
19) Indoors or outdoors? Outdoors, green house
20) What size of closet, room or hut? 10 x 12
22) Have you seen signs of insects in the growroom?
Yes, some gnats, bit of scale on leaves. Fogged with Permethrum 3 days ago
Your strain:
23) What strain are you growing? Super silver haze, Jack Herrer, Grape Kush
24) From seeds or clones? Clones

[Rusty Trichome]

Peat-based soils will lose their buffering after a couple of months. And an ingoing water ph of 6.0 is too low to begin with. For peat-based soils, a ph range of between 6.3 and 6.8 is recommended. If you wander outside of that range, you'll start locking-out the plants ability to uptake certain nutrients.

Do you make your own tea? How much molasses per gallon are you adding, and how often?

[eugenegreen]

Actually it appears that the pH is somewhat closer to 7, but I'm using one of those light/moisture/pH meters that I'm a bit skeptical of. I started using the guano/molasses tea pretty recently, mixing 1 tablespoon of guano and 1 teaspoon of molasses per gallon of water.
I'm attaching another picture of the scale I'm finding on the leaves now. Haven't seen anything like it before, so not sure if it's from bugs or if it's contributing to the decline. Thanks for your help

[headshake]

what bat guano are you using? they vary wildly in nutritional content.

to me they appear to be nitrogen deficient. it looks as if it first showed in the oldest growth and is progressing up the middle, yet to touch the new growth. this is a classic sign of a nitrogen deficiency. treat with a readily available source of nitrogen. yes i know you are in flowering, but nitrogen is still used during flowering. i assume you are trying to stay organic?

you are in oregon? when do you think optimum harvest time would be?


-shake

[cigarettes42]

Actually it appears that the pH is somewhat closer to 7, but I'm using one of those light/moisture/pH meters

those meters are inaccurate junk.


what bat guano are you using? they vary wildly in nutritional content.

to me they appear to be nitrogen deficient. it looks as if it first showed in the oldest growth and is progressing up the middle, yet to touch the new growth. this is a classic sign of a nitrogen deficiency. treat with a readily available source of nitrogen. yes i know you are in flowering, but nitrogen is still used during flowering. i assume you are trying to stay organic?

you are in oregon? when do you think optimum harvest time would be?


-shake

im curious on how many harvest you had under your belt? i see you give tons of advice. usually if there is a n deficiency the whole plant will get pale in my experience and the big fan leave stems will not turn purple/red. new growth will also turn more pale faster than the older growth. listen to rusty

[headshake]

those meters are inaccurate junk.



im curious on how many harvest you had under your belt? i see you give tons of advice. usually if there is a n deficiency the whole plant will get pale in my experience and the big fan leave stems will not turn purple/red. new growth will also turn more pale faster than the older growth. listen to rusty

i have more harvests under my belt than i care to count. i'm no professional by any stretch of the imagination. but my definition of a nitrogen deficiency starting in the older leaves and progression to the middle and finally the new growth is spot on. nitrogen is a mobile element, therefore it MOVES to the new growth manifesting itself in the older growth, the the second oldest and so forth. and yes, eventually even the new growth will be pale (this is very common in over-watered soil plants).

i never mentioned red/purple stems, but that can ALSO be a indicator of a N deficiency as well, but not always as it can also indicate a phosphorus deficiency (as well as being normal in some strains).

i'd rather post something that might jump-start a conversation or spark a discussion to help get more answers or problems solved the sit back and try to look "cool" on the cannabis site. i like to try to give back, period. if you don't cool.

you also grow in hydro a lot correct? (if not my mistake.) anyhow, if you do, problems obviously tend to manifest (and rectify) themselves a lot faster in hydro as opposed to soil. perhaps this is why your new growth appears to turn green first. or perhaps you are having pH issues and its the result of another deficiency altogether.

either way, the fact of the matter is that mobile elements (nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, magnesium and zinc) start to show in old growth first, and work their way up the plant.


-shake

[headshake]

i meant to add this to my post.

-shake

[cigarettes42]

its nice to see that you copy and paste everything you know and ignore the fact that this guy has a bad ph. dont you think a ph around 7 could cause lockout? but your focus is on giving it more nutes. i think i seen one of your first grow logs that you deleted and didnt look impressive. it looked ok but very novice. i remember stinky commenting on someones thread awhile back and you put out some wrong info and you said "thats what you always said, or what the book says" and she said experience is the key, not what a book says. and yes i am a hydro grower in the winter, but a soil grower in the summer

[Rusty Trichome]

Wow. I'm not used to reading an argument without me being directly involved. Kinda weird. :cool:

Figure-out your ingoing ph asap. If you have to, look online for your local water quality report, and see what the average is in your neighborhood. If you are using one of those $7 piece of crap moisture/ph meters from WalMart, you'll need a better plan. They are quite inaccurate. A $7 freshwater aquarium ph test kit is a more reliable test for ingoing water. Only drawback is once the water is tinted, it's color-coded result is inaccurate. Hopefully your tapwater is clear.

Could be getting rootbound, too.

The Scale might be residual from the bug treatment(s). Tiz always best to rinse the stuff off after treatments are complete. Or, might be residue from spraying 'em with additives or nutrients?

Since you skipped half the pertinent questions, (like the questions about your feeding and watering schedule) I'll reserve comment on the nitrogen issue. Shortcuts can cause more problems than doing things the right way the first time. Next time, complete the entire form. It asks these questions for a damned good reason.

[headshake]

its nice to see that you copy and paste everything you know and ignore the fact that this guy has a bad ph. dont you think a ph around 7 could cause lockout? but your focus is on giving it more nutes. i think i seen one of your first grow logs that you deleted and didnt look impressive. it looked ok but very novice. i remember stinky commenting on someones thread awhile back and you put out some wrong info and you said "thats what you always said, or what the book says" and she said experience is the key, not what a book says. and yes i am a hydro grower in the winter, but a soil grower in the summer

i don't copy and paste everything i know. i was merely using it as a reference to support my point (kinda like they do in scientific papers & studies, huh?). a pH of 7 is not horrible. it's .2 above the high end of the recommended range for soil. my focus wasn't for giving just nutes, it was a specific recommendation. i didn't tell this person what to do. i was merely giving my OPINION, same as everyone else.

he's only feeding with molasses and guano. if the guano he's using isn't high in N then where is it coming from? cannabis loves N. this coupled with the fact that those buds look very immature, that plant shouldn't be fading that bad, in my OPINION.

if you go back and READ the post the original troubleshooting form said he water's pH before adjusting is 6, then later he say's later it's CLOSER to a 7. so the pH isn't really known.

i do agree that his pH is of the utmost importance. but since you are the dr., please give us your professional opinion. what element would be locked out at a pH of 7 even, that would cause the plant to look like this? it would have to be a mobile element since again, it appears to be showing first in the lower, older growth and progressing to the middle (and i assume eventually the top).

those plants appear to be in the ground. they also appear to be quite large, and if they are indeed as big as they look, they would have used up all of the available N up very quickly. nitrogen is active in young buds. those buds appear to be pretty young. so put this with the fact that there is possibly no nitrogen source leads me to my conclusion.

which of my first grow logs did you see that i deleted? how in the hell would i have deleted my own growlog anyhow? does anyone else not a mod or admin have the ability to do this? anyone?

hell, go back and look through my old grow logs. my first one wasn't impressive. i started out with a $10 fluro tube for "growing plants" and an aluminum-lined cardboard box, wrong soil, wrong nutes. any problem that you could encounter i probably ran into. but thanks to the HELP from all the great people here at cann.com and my reading everything i could get my eyes on i gained knowledge to apply to gain this experience you speak of.

all of my first grows were in cardboard. each progressively better, both in my results and in my setup as well.

as a matter of fact, here's the link.

http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/164067-not-your-ordinary-first-grow.html

lol. looking at that makes me laugh!

here's my second

http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/167900-headshakes-new-adventure-ghettoness.html

they are all there, just search for them. not a hint of deleted logs. if you would have looked for posts by me you would have seen them all. you also would have noticed that i've probably got more posts in my OWN growlogs than you have on the forums (not that number of posts matters, just your questioning my ability to give advice or number of my harvests).

and congrats on recalling a post where stinky corrected and chastised me. i don't think there is a person on the boards that stinky couldn't correct or one she hasn't chastised for that matter.

i've taken the liberty to attach a soil pH chart so you can give your advice. i wan't something more than it's pH.

i've also attached a pic from my third or fourth grow. but i obviously have no clue as to what i'm doing. that was under CFLs (the bud is a little light and airy as is common with CFLs). my lights come on at 7, i'll be sure to get a couple of pics for ya!


-shake

[airdawg13]

I am still a beginner but I believe that your plants are looking great! It is normal for the fan leaves to turn yellow when your plant enters the flower stage. The plant is focusing on producing big buds, not keeping fan leaves alive. They start to turn yellow because the plant is sucking the nutrients from the leaf and using it for bud production. If you were still in the vegetative growth, then I would worry. But I wouldn't worry now and keep doing what you are doing! If anything clean up the plants a little bit by picking off the leaves that are over 50% yellow or dead.

Your PH is fine I wouldn't stress too much about buying professional PH kit. A lot of growers are picky with their PH, but it seems a little over rated to me. As long as your within a 6-7 range, you should be fine. A quick fix would to fill up a huge container with your tap water. Let the water sit for a couple of days, then water your plants with that. I think it help stabilizes the PH and evaporates salts and other stuff that you don't want. Also 2 weeks before harvest I would flush your soil. You don't want your plants to taste like fertilizers. Using molasses a few days before harvest should be fine though.

As far as a bug problem, it looks like you have thrips. Those little black dots look like thrip poo. They suck nutrients out of your leaves. They also plant their eggs in the leaf and in the soil. You have to spray the soil, just not the plant. Also make sure you get under the leaves sprayed. I would spray in the morning, then follow up a couple of days later with another spray. Make sure you spray any plants near your babies too. My favorite spray is neem oil. You can use that stuff up to a week before harvest and its organic! A good alternative to spraying is buying nematodes and pirate bugs. Maybe plan for that next time around. Also lightly rinsing your plants down in the morning is a good idea. Bugs hate moisture and spraying them will knock them down a little bit. Watch out though because when in the flower stage you don't want too much humidity because it can create a mold problem.

If you want you can feed the plants a little bit of nitrogen. But I would focus feeding the plants with phosphorous and potash (potassium). I use Fox Farm Big Bloom, Fox Farm Tiger Bloom, Molasses every other watering. I might also pick up some Fox Farm Cha Ching. Bat Guano is also good, but watch out with manures because if you use too much you can burn your plants. Try to only use 100% organic fertilizers, it taste better than chemical ferts and less chances of burning your plants.

[cigarettes42]

i am not going to sidetrack this growers thread. soil ph does matter when flowering. in flowering stage your plant likes a more acidic soil rather than a ph around 7. if your soil is around that then i would definitely not add more nutes to correct this problem, especially N during the flowering phase

[Rusty Trichome]

Not to step on anyone's helpful insight, but:

Early in flower you can add a dose or two of your growth formula. Matter of fact, the Fox Farms Weekly Feeding Schedule (on their website) recommends this. I'd say iffy (situational) for mid to late flowering though, because of the plants inherant ability to scavenge the nitrogen from the leaves, which nitrogen makes the bud less tasty anyway, which is why we feel yellowing fans in flower...natural and desirable, and no big deal. Usually. The severe yellowing too early indicates an issue. Likely not a big one, but an issue nontheless.
But, the growth formula can elongate the buds. (stretch)

For mid-flower, It seems to me to be a bit early for such yellowing, and might end-up costing ya when it's time for the buds to fill-in. Nothing stored to build with. (leaves have already scavenged the nutrients and yellowed and died, which was where the plant was going to get it's stored nitrogen from) Too easy to goo too far too quickly with additional nitrogen in late flower. Bad things can happen quickly with this approach.

No, adjusting ph with nutrients isn't a good idea. Matter of fact, it's a real bad idea long-term. What if you need to water inbetween feedings on hot days, or if you need to skip a watering or two in the humid season? Best to get the right tool for the job, and respect your meds. :thumbsup:

[eugenegreen]

Thanks for all the input everyone. I did another sample of my tap water with a more reliable source and found it closer to 8. I'm in Oregon, probably about 4 weeks from harvest, and the leaves are looking yellower every day. Is slow and steady with the new treated water the best way to go about this, or do I want to over-acidify the water slightly to help bring them back? I'm worried I'm running out of time. . .

Also, still a few gnat-looking things hanging around the bottoms of the plants, after I fogged 5 days ago. Do I need to worry that these may be causing part of the problem, and fog them again?

[Rusty Trichome]

Do not over-acidify them. Get the ingoing water within range, and try to keep it there. My wellwater is 7.9, and I use 1/4 tsp of phDown (phosphoric acid) which brings me down to 6.8ish. One gallon of the stuff lasts me over a year, and my ladies love the stuff.
Your yellow leaves won't color-up, but it will slow the progression of yellowing into the new growth. :thumbsup:

To me, gnats are no big deal. But they will never go away without action. But if it's something more damaging than gnats, I'd make sure they didn't live to tell about it. If you do fog again, open your potting soil bag to fog the bugs-n-eggs in there, too. :jointsmile:

Are you in pots, or in the ground? (just curious)

[eugenegreen]

Hey Rusty,
greenhouse is sitting on top of a bunch of bark chips, so the plants are in 6 gallon buckets dug partly below the surface. I've actually wondered if I'm sometimes watering more than necessary, as I can't see how much is draining. I'd say I put an average of 2 gallons of water per pot. How important is it that I get the right amount of water in it as long as it has holes on the bottom?

[Rusty Trichome]

Most use drainage rocks to lift the rootball out of potential standing water. I set my pots on drainage rocks (that I put in the drip tray) for the same reason. But after all is said and done, with using rocks in the drip tray instead of inside the pot, I don't have to pick rocks out of the rootball for every transplant. But if the plants are in a hole, and you overwater...where does the water go? How long till a filled hole empties?

Anyway, Indoors, in soil, in 5 gallon nursery pots, in the summer, (90 to 95 degrees inside of my flowering shed) ...I sloooooolwy add between a quart, and a quart and a half of properly ph'd water per day, if they need it. But I don't water to the point of runoff every watering either. Just a little trickle. On feeding days though, I sloooowly add the solution till a fair ammount of runoff, just to make sure the nutrients get to the lower root zones. Monthly flushes (1;1 ratio of gallons of properly ph'd water to gallons of pot size) which helps prevent build-up of nutrients and salts.
During the winter season, in my region, (the SW desert) I use less water, less often. The humidity keeps the soil moister, longer.

So yes...it does sound like at least part of the problem could be overwatering.

[headshake]

Monthly flushes (1;1 ratio of gallons of properly ph'd water to gallons of pot size) which helps prevent build-up of nutrients and salts.

are the flushes as important when using organic nutes as opposed to salt based rusty?


So yes...it does sound like at least part of the problem could be overwatering.

couldn't over-watering cause the Nitrogen to leech out (along with other elements)?


hey eugene, you said you have about 4 weeks to go (in your estimation). so when is the last time you transplanted your ladies?



-shake

[Gatekeeper777]

Personally I would follar spray with liquid light, flush the crap out of it and water with miracle grow acid lovers plant for for tomatoes. full strength.

[Rusty Trichome]

are the flushes as important when using organic nutes as opposed to salt based rusty? Depends on how you water and feed your ladies. I water till small trickle. I feed till runoff. (much more than a trickle) It's not only salts I'm flushing, it's (potential) excess nutrients I'm flushing as well. So I perform a monthly flush to 'reset' the medium.

couldn't over-watering cause the Nitrogen to leech out (along with other elements)?
-shake Yup. Unless the source is a slow-release or chunky organic. (blood meal or worm castings, for instance) It will still leech a good quantity of those. Oversaturation makes these ammendments 'melt'.


Personally I would follar spray with liquid light, flush the crap out of it and water with miracle grow acid lovers plant for for tomatoes. full strength.So in the middle of this plant stress, you recommend he change nutrients, add a carbo-load product (overpriced diluted molasses?) to overclock the plant's growth system, and provide an additional flush to an already saturated medium...? Perhaps your ideas are valid on an otherwise healthy plant, but this isn't recommended on an ailing plant.
Aren't you supposed to use Penetrator alongside the Liquid Light?
Do you have an ingredients list for the Liquid Light? I would love to see what they're putting in it before disassembling the reasoning behind paying that price for an 'additive'. :thumbsup: