we need patients + caregivers advocacy

[copobo]

there needs to be a political action group with just the patients and small caregivers interests in mind.

it doesn't seem like anyone is doing that.

it's the businesses that are represented... cuz that's where the $$ is.

[GratefulMeds]

We do have that site we talked about up now, but I have been busy with so much lately just to stay in the game I have not had time for much else. But soon I should have more time to devote to the cause.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[HighPopalorum]

Other than the five patient limit, there really is no regulation or oversight of patients and caregivers.... so what's the point? What would the group advocate?

Besides, the interests of patients, caregivers and dispensary owners like GM here are not identical.

[Zedleppelin]

Other than the five patient limit, there really is no regulation or oversight of patients and caregivers.... so what's the point? What would the group advocate?



How about the fact that A20 was written specifically for patients AND caregivers, yet 1284 gives dispensaries a monopoly over it all at the cost of caregivers and patients? What was the point of making a law that says dispensaries can make a profit and caregivers cannot? Now they're attacking caregivers with kids. Everything we've seen from Chris in Highlands Ranch to the North Metro Task Force's nazi like tactics are all designed to get rid of caregivers, one of the few things A20 supposedly protects. The intent is to get rid of caregivers, plain and simple, and if we dont fight this now we're fucked. Once again it all comes down to who has the most money and it is exactly why we got screwed to begin with. I agree with copobo, we need to organize and fast. One problem is growers are the most paranoid of the bunch and for the most part have remained silent.

[Colodonmed]

How about the fact that A20 was written specifically for patients AND caregivers, yet 1284 gives dispensaries a monopoly over it all at the cost of caregivers and patients? What was the point of making a law that says dispensaries can make a profit and caregivers cannot? Now they're attacking caregivers with kids. Everything we've seen from Chris in Highlands Ranch to the North Metro Task Force's nazi like tactics are all designed to get rid of caregivers, one of the few things A20 supposedly protects. The intent is to get rid of caregivers, plain and simple, and if we dont fight this now we're fucked. Once again it all comes down to who has the most money and it is exactly why we got screwed to begin with. I agree with copobo, we need to organize and fast. One problem is growers are the most paranoid of the bunch and for the most part have remained silent.
A person whom I trust to be truthfull and was in the infused product business until recently attended a meeting with a group of individuals to discuss strategy after the passing of 1284. Several dispensaries and infused products folks were represented at this meeting and one of the top folks there, did not get her name but she claimed to have been involved with the mmj movement since it's inception displayed a flow chart in which " centers " were at the top, then the growers alongside the infused product people, and off to the side with no connection in the flow were the caregivers as defined by ammendment 20. A question was asked why the caregivers were off to the side on their own and the reply was basically " We are not too concerned with them as they will be phased out in a few years " not verbatim but the meaning is /was there.

Zep, you are right about the Amendment being for the patient/caregiver and the resulting monopolies that 1284 is creating. Patients rights are not going to matter if this movement continues on it's current path. Everyone will be forced back undeground or required to obtain their medicine from a select group of very wealthy dispensary owners and their cronies. IT'S ONLY A MATTER OF TIME FOLKS

[cologrower420]

How about the fact that A20 was written specifically for patients AND caregivers, yet 1284 gives dispensaries a monopoly over it all at the cost of caregivers and patients? What was the point of making a law that says dispensaries can make a profit and caregivers cannot? Now they're attacking caregivers with kids. Everything we've seen from Chris in Highlands Ranch to the North Metro Task Force's nazi like tactics are all designed to get rid of caregivers, one of the few things A20 supposedly protects. The intent is to get rid of caregivers, plain and simple, and if we dont fight this now we're fucked. Once again it all comes down to who has the most money and it is exactly why we got screwed to begin with. I agree with copobo, we need to organize and fast. One problem is growers are the most paranoid of the bunch and for the most part have remained silent.

Based on your last sentence, it would seem obvious that the people who were the most vocal got what they wanted. Maybe if all of these small scale growers would have been more pro-active instead of now being reactive, we wouldn't be here.

It's silly to attempt to make changes to legislation or repeal or whatever, and it's even more silly to discuss it like it's a viable option.

It would be better worth our time if we discussed how to get compliant with current legislation, not change it.

For example, let's try to save these small scale basement grows. Let's assume the caregiver lives alone, owns the property, is a patient, and has 5 patients. With a 6 plant cap, that's 30-36 plants max that this grower can have.

Under 1284, can't plant counts be increased to 24 or 50 or something? Why can't that caregiver who grows the super chronic just find 5 patients with really high plant count limits? I don't know what the number is, but let's say 50. 5 patients would be 250 plants, which seems to cover all the bases of these small scale growers, those who didn't want to marry an MMC or pay the offsite license. Wouldn't that be an option to keep the small grow compliant, save the license fees?

[Zedleppelin]

Based on your last sentence, it would seem obvious that the people who were the most vocal got what they wanted. Maybe if all of these small scale growers would have been more pro-active instead of now being reactive, we wouldn't be here.

Thats exactly what happened.



It's silly to attempt to make changes to legislation or repeal or whatever, and it's even more silly to discuss it like it's a viable option.It would be better worth our time if we discussed how to get compliant with current legislation, not change it.

This is just plain ridiculous. The man who sits back, does nothing and conforms becomes a puppet to special interests. Next year will be more legislation to control caregivers and it will go on until they are gone.






For example, let's try to save these small scale basement grows. Let's assume the caregiver lives alone, owns the property, is a patient, and has 5 patients. With a 6 plant cap, that's 30-36 plants max that this grower can have.

Under 1284, can't plant counts be increased to 24 or 50 or something? Why can't that caregiver who grows the super chronic just find 5 patients with really high plant count limits? I don't know what the number is, but let's say 50. 5 patients would be 250 plants, which seems to cover all the bases of these small scale growers, those who didn't want to marry an MMC or pay the offsite license. Wouldn't that be an option to keep the small grow compliant, save the license fees?

First off nothing in 1284 changes for caregivers as far as plant count goes. All it states is that the Dept of Health will recognize higher recommendations for 'centers' and it states it can be used as an affirmative defense which is the way its always been under A20. Doesnt mean the cops will follow it and you will not get charged, it means you can use it as a defense in a trial $30,000 later.

Secondly, even with a higher plant count what do you plan on doing with your extra meds?

[HighPopalorum]

The way I saw and see the matter is this: caregivers cannot run a for-profit business because that would entail regulation, inspection, taxes etc. It's better this way without any of those kinds of oversight. I like that patients have all three options: for-profit retail, non-profit small growers, or self production. I also like the fact that caregivers can grow without ever seeing the face of a DPHE inspector, a cop, or a revenoor. That seems to me to be the intent of A20. (although I'm glad we also allow dispensaries!)

[donnadanko]

there needs to be a political action group with just the patients and small caregivers interests in mind.

it doesn't seem like anyone is doing that.

it's the businesses that are represented... cuz that's where the $$ is.



Grasshopper here......ok seriously why don't one of you guys start a group?
I mean your on here everyday, you have passion and you all like debating.
I think copobo or zedlep or even highpop could do?

I guess if you just don't want to, I can understnd that.

[Zedleppelin]

The way I saw and see the matter is this: caregivers cannot run a for-profit business because that would entail regulation, inspection, taxes etc. It's better this way without any of those kinds of oversight. I like that patients have all three options: for-profit retail, non-profit small growers, or self production. I also like the fact that caregivers can grow without ever seeing the face of a DPHE inspector, a cop, or a revenoor. That seems to me to be the intent of A20. (although I'm glad we also allow dispensaries!)


I'm not so sure caregivers will never see an inspector. Caregivers are now required to register with the Dept of Revenue so you will no longer be in a database that is off limits to law enforcement. Is that something you trust? I dont, not in this present climate.

[HighPopalorum]

Caregivers are now required to register with the Dept of Revenue so you will no longer be in a database that is off limits to law enforcement. Is that something you trust? I dont, not in this present climate.


This is plain 100% wrong. Caregivers register with CPHE, not Revenue, just like patients. The registry is confidential. See page 47.

FFS, man....

EDIT: You know.. I'm going to correct myself partially. The registry is confidential, but it can still be verified by law enforcement. They can't browse it, but they can get a yes or a no from the health department if you present an officer with your card. Otherwise it's entirely confidential.

[cologrower420]

This is just plain ridiculous. The man who sits back, does nothing and conforms becomes a puppet to special interests. Next year will be more legislation to control caregivers and it will go on until they are gone.

First off nothing in 1284 changes for caregivers as far as plant count goes. All it states is that the Dept of Health will recognize higher recommendations for 'centers' and it states it can be used as an affirmative defense which is the way its always been under A20. Doesnt mean the cops will follow it and you will not get charged, it means you can use it as a defense in a trial $30,000 later.

Secondly, even with a higher plant count what do you plan on doing with your extra meds?

I don't really care to get into a debate here on this subject, so I'll only say this regarding repealing laws. I agree that we should remain vigilant advocates for every aspect of this industry. However, let's be real. It's so enormously difficult to get legislation repealed at the state level, especially with a hotbutton thing like this. In my opinion, it's just not a real option to even discuss repealing 1284 unless there is some smoking gun in some language somewhere. But even that would be removed and the rest of the legislation remain. I am not familiar though, so I could easily be wrong.

I understand that A20 only grants an affirmative defense, that you'll get charged and have to prove it at trial etc.

I am just thinking of the small scale grower who did not get married to a dispensary, who is now illegal if they are growing more than the max, around 30. That's only 15 flowering, which seems to me like it isn't enough, even for 5 patients. I smoke a couple ounces a month, and I have no idea of yield with these super awesome strains, but the 3 plants I can currently grow for myself don't seem like enough, even for me.

Is there a max on plants? Could I go to a 'friendly' doctor, say I can't smoke and need edibles? What's the max plant count? I haven't seen any info on that. Is there a link to a summary of the bill or the language itself? I guess I can search this site but I'm at work. And I'm lazy.

I guess I am looking for creative interpretations so we can agree on the max number of plants a non-profit home grow can have, given our parameters, assuming we're discussing a non-profit homegrow.

To answer your question on selling extra, if I am growing for five people like myself, that's 10 ounces a month, I don't see much extra. There are services on craigslist for trimming and butter/honey making, but you're only paying for the service if you keep the hash. I wouldn't have any desire at all to sell any extra. I assume they trim or hash the bottom third and give the rest to their patients.

Question: Is the increased plant count for MMC's only? Could a dispensary buy my superawesome topshelf as part of their 30%

[Zedleppelin]

This is plain 100% wrong. Caregivers register with CPHE, not Revenue, just like patients. The registry is confidential. See page 47.

FFS, man....

EDIT: You know.. I'm going to correct myself partially. The registry is confidential, but it can still be verified by law enforcement. They can't browse it, but they can get a yes or a no from the health department if you present an officer with your card. Otherwise it's entirely confidential.


I hope you're right, but this is from MMJ Attorney Jeff Gard's blog, note the last entry:


Now that it is 7/2, I want to make clear the following points:

1. You must be growing and selling only your own MMJ. The 9/1/10 certification does not act as an extension of the deadline for this requirement. Late last night I received clarification from Mr. Matt Cook that the effective date for growing and selling your own MMJ is 7/1/10. Do not jeopardize your hard work by purchasing MMJ from any one other than another established MMC, which has local approval for both its grow and retail operations. Donâ??t take any oneâ??s word for their own legality â?? do your own due diligence.

2. Do not continue employing any people with drug felonies, concerning criminal histories (lots of misdemeanors, less-than felony drug convictions, etc.), people with a felony within five years of completing the sentence or anyone who has not been a Colorado resident for two years prior to 7/1/10 (see, prior blogs).

3. Do not operate your business at all unless you are locally approved and/or have applied for local approval for both the grow and retail aspects of your business. If you are a MIP, you can only continue operating if you have local approval/applied for local approval. If your MIP does not grow its own MMJ or you do not have local approval/applied for local approval for growing your own MMJ, you must have a written contract for purchase of MMJ with an established MMC. Please note that the MMC must be locally approved/applied for local approval for both the grow and retail aspects of its business in order to be able to sell 30% of its MMJ to your business. You may contract with up to 5 such businesses.

4. After 7/1/10, the MMC can only possess 2 ounces and grow 6 plants for the number of patients who have assigned the MMC as their â??primary center.â?� As stated in previous blogs, you must convert all patients who have assigned any of the persons associated with your business to be their primary caregiver over to the MMC as their primary center. Use the stateâ??s Change of Primary Caregiver form (there is not MMC primary center assignment form yet available) and make sure to properly complete, notarize and mail to the Department of Health and Department of Revenue, attn. Mr. Matt Cook, certified mail/return receipt requested. Remember â?? if you have zero patients who have assigned the MMC as their primary center, you may possess zero ounces of MMJ and may cultivate zero plants.

5. You should download the newly minted Dept. of Health patient application for use in acquiring new patients or use the Change of Primary Caregiver forms to assign current patients at the time of sale of MMJ from your MMC. You do not need to continue using any â??temporary caregiverâ?� forms (which were never legal anyway, see prior blogs). The forms may be downloaded from: Colorado: Department of Public Health and Environment, Colorado Medical Marijuana Registry (http://www.cdphe.state.co.us/hs/medicalmarijuana/forms.html).

6. Begin preparing for the 8/1/10 Department of Revenue MMC/MIP application and save a substantial amount of money for the as-yet undisclosed application and license fees.

7. Please keep careful and accurate records regarding both your cultivation and sale of MMJ. Remember, the stateâ??s microscope for your business will be applied beginning on 7/1/10!

8. For all of the primary caregivers â?? you must only have five patients, must provide other caregiving services (see prior blogs) and charge only the cost of producing the MMJ. You must notify the Department of Revenue who the five patients are that you intend to continue as their primary caregiver and give notice that you are no longer willing to act as the primary caregiver for the remaining patients. List all of the patients accordingly. SSend the letter certified mail, return receipt requested.

Colorado Medical Marijuana Blog | Gard & Bond, L.L.C. (http://www.medicalmarijuanalawcolorado.com/medicinal-marijuana-law-blog/)

[copobo]

Question: Is the increased plant count for MMC's only? Could a dispensary buy my superawesome topshelf as part of their 30%

no. they can only buy from each other.


1284 will not be repealed in its entirety. Portions of it could be turned around by new legislation or by the courts - likely both. Before the next legislative session - we should organize to be sure our interests are represented. Patients didn't have a seat at the table for 1284. Sure, a few got to get up and talk, but who cares? All concerns were ignored. Veterans were ignored. Patients were ignored. Why? lack of organization. The folks with a money stake in the process had money to turn over to Matt Brown + Josh Stanley and COMMR. Those people don't give a fuck about patients, just dollars. If you think removing caregivers from legal sales doesn't hurt patients, you are dead fucking wrong. some patients STOPPED getting their free meds this month, many more to follow.

[TheReleafCenter]

it's the businesses that are represented... cuz that's where the $$ is.

There is money in being a caregiver as well, just no one to organize them. Dispensaries came together and, while it wasn't a very unified or thought out message, at least sent people to the state to deliver that message.

[copobo]

There is money in being a caregiver as well, just no one to organize them. Dispensaries came together and, while it wasn't a very unified or thought out message, at least sent people to the state to deliver that message.

money in being a caregiver is arguable post 1284, unless the caregiver decides to work outside of the law. I don't blame the dispensaries for wanting to join forces, though I do object to the amoral biz-for-biz-sake objectives of COMMR, and that they completely lost sight of the patients.

I really hope dispensaries start a trade group, without the likes of Josh and Matt at the wheel. We need a group with a more honorable reputation.

That group should have a board of directors, and a patient advocate should should be one of them, and a non-licensed caregiver should be another.

I know GM was all about this idea and still is, though I know this is a crazy time for them. There's a ton of respect still to be earned by businesses that realize - it REALLY IS all about the patients and small growers AND the licensed offsite grows and Centers. Protecting the rights of the smallest players in this movement is what will keep the market as it is today, alive. Because dispensaries came into existence in 2009, SHOULD NOT in any way, effect existing relationships with patients and caregivers - yet it has.

this is terribly fucken sad, and every legislator that voted for 1284 and every supporter of COMMR owes it to the patients in this state to do what needs to be done to remove the 5 patient limit; and to make some provision for caregivers to legally use extras to fund gratis services for their patients and to maybe even make a few dollars for their hard work.

seems pretty simple to me. I know there are many dispensaries that were afraid, and aligned with COMMR because they were scared - understood. now, let's fix it!

[TheReleafCenter]

Listen, I think you're one of the people who have a clear idea of what needs to happen in this industry and I agree with you wholeheartedly on a lot of subjects. My only point is that I think caregivers PRE 1284 could have done more to protect themselves.

I've never heard a center say anything pro the 5 patient limit. Most of the ones that are well run have tremendous respect for independent growers and frankly depended on them to get to where they are today. I don't think they were intimidated by them as competition, either, so I'm not sure how that provision made it into 1284. But it was a mistake, and a mistake that needs to be fixed.

[copobo]

okay, just to be clear, I'm not calling anyone out other than COMMR + Matt + Josh

but, no, I don't think caregivers are in much of a position to speak for themselves. remember during the hearings, the DEA raided Full Spectrum Labs while they were on the stand?

Who in their right mind would stand up at one of those hearings and say Hi, I'm Joe Grower. I'm a small time caregiver in Aurora, I have 18 patients.

BOOM. doors kicked in.

Point is - we need to remember the precarious position some in our community live in, and what little regard our legislators have for the patients and caregivers. If you are standing up, stand up for yourself AND consider someone who can't stand up as you. If we let ANY rights be taken away, even if it really only effects the other guy - it effects you. when rights go away, rights go away.

[michaelnights]

Caregivers in Michigan are limited to 12 plants per patient and only allowed 5 patients - total 72 plants. They've created marketing co-ops, i.e.; they pool their patients. This gives patients assess to a greater variety of available produce and expands a caregiver's limited market.

MI caregivers are using this co-op model and stretching it into a new type of dispensary business model. CO and CA caregivers came to dispensaries from a different model, one unrestricted by a patient cap.

While "joining together" to grow is no longer allowed in CO, the law does not address caregivers joining together to market. Using the traditional agricultural co-op model, were each farmer grows their own produce and the co-op assists in marketing, CO caregivers could benefit, as could their patients.

Ag co-ops are a hugely important business model here in CO. By coming together under the co-op model it also gives small farmers a much greater voice in political matters, which they press hard.

It would be difficult for legislators to deny mmj caregivers access to this same business model.

I've assisted a few Ag co-ops. I could see that model working well for the type of org copobo suggests is needed.

[cowgirl1]

How about the fact that A20 was written specifically for patients AND caregivers, yet 1284 gives dispensaries a monopoly over it all at the cost of caregivers and patients? What was the point of making a law that says dispensaries can make a profit and caregivers cannot? Now they're attacking caregivers with kids. Everything we've seen from Chris in Highlands Ranch to the North Metro Task Force's nazi like tactics are all designed to get rid of caregivers, one of the few things A20 supposedly protects. The intent is to get rid of caregivers, plain and simple, and if we dont fight this now we're fucked. Once again it all comes down to who has the most money and it is exactly why we got screwed to begin with. I agree with copobo, we need to organize and fast. One problem is growers are the most paranoid of the bunch and for the most part have remained silent.

I agree with you 100%. Well spoken. I think 99% of the people forgot this will all set up for the patients and caregivers and NOT the dispensary. I do think there are places for dispensary but I also think that they are the ones that has caused 99% of the problems with them popping up on every other corner. It is nothing personal about them and I do not have a problem with them but I think that is what caused all this. And you are also right they are the ones with the money so "some" of them will come out on top while the patients and caregiver will lose and like you said the caregiver and patients are the ones that are suppose to be protected. As to Cory and sensible Colorado I personally think they are full of crap. All you heard about was how wrong it was about the 5 patients and how it was going to hurt the patients and how we are going to file a civil case. Gee, I have yet to see anything on the lines and all the talk has fallen to the waiste side. But yet Cory is now fighting for the dispensary and not the caregiver or patients. I think it was more of a way to get his name out, get on tv and make people poor money into his pockets.

[copobo]

It would be difficult for legislators to deny mmj caregivers access to this same business model.

I've assisted a few Ag co-ops.

what do you think a working model of this would like like in Colorado?

[copobo]

cripes. I wish we could edit longer...

what do you think a working model of this would look like in Colorado?

[michaelnights]

I think a patient /caregiver marketing co-op could be run like a regular Ag co-op. These are democratically run orgs, requiring input and agreement by members. Some, not all, caregivers and patients might flourish in this type of atmosphere, i.e.; help raise the education level of the membership on issues from patients needs (anyone made mmj suppositories?) to beating down mites to campaign and legislative politics.

"The mission of Cooperative Services Program is to promote understanding and use of the cooperative form of business as a viable organizational option for marketing and distributing agricultural products." (From USDA website) How to Start a Cooperative (http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/rbs/pub/cir7/cir7rpt.htm) There's lots of info on Ag co-ops on the www

There are some built in advantages that members of an mmj co-op could exploit, like the ability to deliver mmj to sick patients. MMCs can't make deliveries.

Basically, everything allowed under the Constitution can be taken advantage of by a mmj co-op, if it's also within the limits of the new laws (i.e.; can't grow together, plant and patient limits.)

[neversummer]

Listen, I think you're one of the people who have a clear idea of what needs to happen in this industry and I agree with you wholeheartedly on a lot of subjects. My only point is that I think caregivers PRE 1284 could have done more to protect themselves.

I've never heard a center say anything pro the 5 patient limit. Most of the ones that are well run have tremendous respect for independent growers and frankly depended on them to get to where they are today. I don't think they were intimidated by them as competition, either, so I'm not sure how that provision made it into 1284. But it was a mistake, and a mistake that needs to be fixed.

I know a lot of caregivers were mislead by there super high priced mmj lawyers. Warren Edson is a total slimebag who made a lot of money misadvising caregivers , and then sold them up the river to the dispensaries under 1284. A lot of caregivers believed they would easily be able to negotiate contract with multiple dispensaries, wrong! By the time most people realized was about to happen, it was too late. I tried to warn several people who kind of brushed it off, now they are fucked scrambling around trying to save the ship before 1284 sinks everything.

I would love to join a caregivers union.

[GratefulMeds]

Caregivers in Michigan are limited to 12 plants per patient and only allowed 5 patients - total 72 plants. They've created marketing co-ops, i.e.; they pool their patients. This gives patients assess to a greater variety of available produce and expands a caregiver's limited market.

MI caregivers are using this co-op model and stretching it into a new type of dispensary business model. CO and CA caregivers came to dispensaries from a different model, one unrestricted by a patient cap.

While "joining together" to grow is no longer allowed in CO, the law does not address caregivers joining together to market. Using the traditional agricultural co-op model, were each farmer grows their own produce and the co-op assists in marketing, CO caregivers could benefit, as could their patients.

Ag co-ops are a hugely important business model here in CO. By coming together under the co-op model it also gives small farmers a much greater voice in political matters, which they press hard.

It would be difficult for legislators to deny mmj caregivers access to this same business model.

I've assisted a few Ag co-ops. I could see that model working well for the type of org copobo suggests is needed.

Michigan is where Colorado was about three years ago, ready for an explosion of caregivers and dispensaries. We have started grows in MI. and hope to have a dispensary up by the end of the summer, luckily both Mike and I have family and freinds there we can trust to do this right. I am going with Marc Emery's strategy "Overgrow the Government"!
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

[cologrower420]

Listen, I think you're one of the people who have a clear idea of what needs to happen in this industry and I agree with you wholeheartedly on a lot of subjects. My only point is that I think caregivers PRE 1284 could have done more to protect themselves.

I've never heard a center say anything pro the 5 patient limit. Most of the ones that are well run have tremendous respect for independent growers and frankly depended on them to get to where they are today. I don't think they were intimidated by them as competition, either, so I'm not sure how that provision made it into 1284. But it was a mistake, and a mistake that needs to be fixed.

I think dispensaries quietly approve of this 5 patient limit, because it pretty effectively cripples large scale home grows, which are their direct competition pre-1284.

Now, MMC's are most definitely the large scale producers and providers of medical marijuana, and that's not going to change. I don't think this was an accident.

[TheReleafCenter]

I think dispensaries quietly approve of this 5 patient limit, because it pretty effectively cripples large scale home grows, which are their direct competition pre-1284.

Now, MMC's are most definitely the large scale producers and providers of medical marijuana, and that's not going to change. I don't think this was an accident.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Large scale home grows aren't scaring anyone. Centers are the future, not buying meds out of someones house or car.

[cologrower420]

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Large scale home grows aren't scaring anyone. Centers are the future, not buying meds out of someones house or car.

I think we are on the same page.

I was saying that prior to 1284, your biggest competition would be a large scale home grow. I'm thinking of the guy in highlands ranch, or something on an even larger scale. There were no patient limits before so theoretically as long as you had the patients and paperwork, you could grow unlimited amounts of medicine right? Correct me if I am wrong. If that large scale home grow had better, higher quality than you, you'd likely be obligated to carry that medicine, probably at a premium cost. For example, wellspring's house strain is ingrid, and it's okay, but it's no pre98 bubba.

With 1284, that large scale home grow now has to either marry up with a dispensary and grow there, or pay to have the optional premesis license. Right? So it effectively crippled and ruined that large scale home grow. In my eyes, this legislation rewards you as a dispensary for becoming legit and paying your taxes. I would venture that large scale home grow isn't paying taxes anywhere along the line, and neither are the people he's providing medicine to. This legislation makes sure that the state gets tax revenue on as much of these transactions as possible.

I guess it's not really a move designed to protect MMC's and I can believe that they weren't responsible for it's being included. I have a feeling that the department of revenue wanted to make sure they got as big a piece of the pie as possible.

So, here we are. These large scale home grows, who are now operating outside the law, are the only ones who are really upset with 1284, or those growing for friends, etc. The rest of us will simply deal with it. I think. Maybe.

[TheReleafCenter]

Those large scale home grows were where dispensaries were getting a majority of their meds. What sense does it make to try to eliminate them? It was a symbiotic relationship because most large scale grows can't sell the volume they grow.

[cologrower420]

Those large scale home grows were where dispensaries were getting a majority of their meds. What sense does it make to try to eliminate them? It was a symbiotic relationship because most large scale grows can't sell the volume they grow.

I agree, I guess my point is, the only ones who are really, genuinely upset with these new regulations are those large scale grows that we are talking about, who didn't get compliant and are now illegal. Those people who didn't want to pay the licensing fees to get legal etc. Those large scale guys who didn't marry up with dispensaries like yours, are the ones who are affected.

I'm okay with that. I am glad that dispensaries like yours are getting together with large scale grows, hopefully these smallish super high quality grows will replicate on a larger scale now that they are coming out from the underground.

I think this legislation will be difficult to navigate short term, but I think it's pretty crucial if we want to be around and legit long term.

Regarding eliminating home grows. In the eyes of the government, and the department of revenue, anyone not paying taxes has to go. The department of revenue understood that large scale home grows likely don't pay enough in taxes, hence this legislation. Obviously the legit, smart growers married up and paid up to remain compliant. That's a good thing. That's how it makes sense to eliminate those who are now non-compliant.

[Zedleppelin]

I think we are on the same page.

I was saying that prior to 1284, your biggest competition would be a large scale home grow. I'm thinking of the guy in highlands ranch, or something on an even larger scale. There were no patient limits before so theoretically as long as you had the patients and paperwork, you could grow unlimited amounts of medicine right? Correct me if I am wrong. If that large scale home grow had better, higher quality than you, you'd likely be obligated to carry that medicine, probably at a premium cost. For example, wellspring's house strain is ingrid, and it's okay, but it's no pre98 bubba.

With 1284, that large scale home grow now has to either marry up with a dispensary and grow there, or pay to have the optional premesis license. Right? So it effectively crippled and ruined that large scale home grow. In my eyes, this legislation rewards you as a dispensary for becoming legit and paying your taxes. I would venture that large scale home grow isn't paying taxes anywhere along the line, and neither are the people he's providing medicine to. This legislation makes sure that the state gets tax revenue on as much of these transactions as possible.

I guess it's not really a move designed to protect MMC's and I can believe that they weren't responsible for it's being included. I have a feeling that the department of revenue wanted to make sure they got as big a piece of the pie as possible.

So, here we are. These large scale home grows, who are now operating outside the law, are the only ones who are really upset with 1284, or those growing for friends, etc. The rest of us will simply deal with it. I think. Maybe.


1284 was not about taxes, It was designed to kill off caregivers and give the big dispensaries a monopoly. Before 1284 was passed I had a few email exchanges with Romer proposing an idea how small growers could supply dispensaries and all transactions would be recorded for tax purposes. His response was it was 'the wrong people making the money' and that dispensaries have a more professional image and the ones that don't would be shutdown.

They could make a hell of a lot more revenue with 10,000 legitimate independent growers than a couple of hundred dispensaries but it was all about the wrong people making money.

[cologrower420]

1284 was not about taxes, It was designed to kill off caregivers and give the big dispensaries a monopoly. Before 1284 was passed I had a few email exchanges with Romer proposing an idea how small growers could supply dispensaries and all transactions would be recorded for tax purposes. His response was it was 'the wrong people making the money' and that dispensaries have a more professional image and the ones that don't would be shutdown.

They could make a hell of a lot more revenue with 10,000 legitimate independent growers than a couple of hundred dispensaries but it was all about the wrong people making money.

You also need to realize, and might be missing, the fact that this guy is a politician, and he's in the business of saving his job. I think the politics of legal marijuana for medicinal use is still a pretty touchy subject, and these politicians have to act accordingly.

I don't think this legislation would have even passed if it weren't for all the scare tactics used by the media in the last year. Those undercover segments of people getting cards for ear aches, etc, all gave evidence that this industry needed reform.

It's unfortunate for you that the dispensaries got together to unify their message, like releaf said. Until you get your homegrow buddies together into some kind of organized group, don't expect anyone to listen to you. Again, the politicians are interested in votes and staying in office, and this legislation helps to minimize the fear mongering going on by anti MMJ people.

Are you suggesting that places like releaf, wellspring and the other large MMC's were in favor of vertical integration and growing on site or in industrial areas?

[Zedleppelin]

You also need to realize, and might be missing, the fact that this guy is a politician, and he's in the business of saving his job. I think the politics of legal marijuana for medicinal use is still a pretty touchy subject, and these politicians have to act accordingly.

Romers goal is to become mayor of Denver and eventually Governor of the state. His way to accomplish this is to get his name in the paper every time there is a big issue. Read how Denver Post columnist Susan Greene exposes him as the attention whore he is....
Greene: Overexposed Sen. Romer likes the limelight - The Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_15074199)



I don't think this legislation would have even passed if it weren't for all the scare tactics used by the media in the last year. Those undercover segments of people getting cards for ear aches, etc, all gave evidence that this industry needed reform.

You're confusing SB109 with HB1284.


It's unfortunate for you that the dispensaries got together to unify their message, like releaf said. Until you get your homegrow buddies together into some kind of organized group, don't expect anyone to listen to you. Again, the politicians are interested in votes and staying in office, and this legislation helps to minimize the fear mongering going on by anti MMJ people.

Exactly what was the fear mongering that was being done for 1284? Nobody, including law enforcement was for the bill. During the 10 hour public hearing there were only 2 people that spoke in support of the bill, one was a dispensary and the other was someone that owns a MMJ testing center. The anti mmj people were against it.



Are you suggesting that places like releaf, wellspring and the other large MMC's were in favor of vertical integration and growing on site or in industrial areas?

Are you suggesting they werent in favor of it? You obviously werent paying much attention to the media blitz Josh Stanley went on when the bill was being debated. Who wouldnt be in favor of a law that makes you the only legal entity to produce and sell a product?

[HighPopalorum]

Well... patients and caregivers can of course still grow as well, so dispensaries are hardly the only ones producing this product.

[neversummer]

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Large scale home grows aren't scaring anyone. Centers are the future, not buying meds out of someones house or car.

You annoy the shit out of me. Centers are fucking up bad. The future is full legalization, and everyone growing there own so we dont have to pay $60 an eighth to some dispensary prick that doesnt know one thing about growing weed and pretending like its fucking medical and im a patient. Most of these dispensaries sell b grade, mite infested, moldy, warehouse bullshit, and lowball the basement growers who come with the FIRE. Do you know there are still more pot smokers without cards still, than with cards. Why should you have to pay a quack doctor, show 3 forms of id, and fill out 10 pages of paperwork just to buy a bag of homegrown smoke. Most of my friends that have cards cant afford to go to a "center". I sell quarters all day for $80, FIRE.

Basement bud will always be better than warehouse beasters.

The future is full legalization, and the economy is so bad we need small businesses, even home businesses. We dont need government MMJ centers, its not good for the economy. Basically the goverment is trying to take over the marijuana industry. If you work or by weed from a mmj center, you are supporting a corrupt government. You are supporting 1284. Keep the black :rastasmoke:market alive. Fuck taxes. They will use your taxes to fight more wars and make more unjust laws. Rebel. Chaos . Anarchy. Truth. Freedom. Burn Babylon

[TurboALLWD]

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Large scale home grows aren't scaring anyone. Centers are the future, not buying meds out of someones house or car.

Centers are not the future, full legalization, and patients buying out of their own house at half price of what you and the other centers charge is the future. You can't compete with caregivers offering meds at $225 oz ALL the way down to $28 8th's and $8 grams. I'll never step foot in your schwag shop ever again and I'll advise everyone else I know to do the same.


I can't believe some of these dispensaries on this forum are stupid enough to talk shit to patients and show time and time again how greedy they are. Seems like most of the older disp owners know better, its just the stupid kids that don't. We should boycott all the dispensaries, not just the stupid pricks that don't know when to keep their mouths shut. QUIT paying their outrageous prices, and don't buy any meds over $35 8th. Put these cocksuckers out of business!

It only makes sense that patients will go to the black market to get their meds before paying double or even tripple, its not even an option for most patients. Who the fuck can afford to pay some center prick $50-60 an 8th to medicate? Like I said, caregivers will be taking care of the real patients, and centers will be taking care of the recreational smokers.

I really hope the disps get shit canned eventually and the ones that made millions by ripping patients off take it up the ass in federal prison, it would only be fair after what they've done to the patients, and caregivers. The dispensaries have lobbied with the government to take our rights away and they need to be boycotted.

[cologrower420]

Romers goal is to become mayor of Denver and eventually Governor of the state. His way to accomplish this is to get his name in the paper every time there is a big issue. Read how Denver Post columnist Susan Greene exposes him as the attention whore he is....
Greene: Overexposed Sen. Romer likes the limelight - The Denver Post (http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_15074199)



You're confusing SB109 with HB1284.



Exactly what was the fear mongering that was being done for 1284? Nobody, including law enforcement was for the bill. During the 10 hour public hearing there were only 2 people that spoke in support of the bill, one was a dispensary and the other was someone that owns a MMJ testing center. The anti mmj people were against it.




Are you suggesting they werent in favor of it? You obviously werent paying much attention to the media blitz Josh Stanley went on when the bill was being debated. Who wouldnt be in favor of a law that makes you the only legal entity to produce and sell a product?
I was referring to the general reefer madness that's been going on in the last couple of years, especially since last summer. Before last summer, there were no 9news investigations or anything like that. That was my point, and that in general, politicians in Colorado don't give a shit about medical marijuana, they want to get re-elected.

[TheAllDayToker]

The way I saw and see the matter is this: caregivers cannot run a for-profit business because that would entail regulation, inspection, taxes etc. It's better this way without any of those kinds of oversight. I like that patients have all three options: for-profit retail, non-profit small growers, or self production. I also like the fact that caregivers can grow without ever seeing the face of a DPHE inspector, a cop, or a revenoor. That seems to me to be the intent of A20. (although I'm glad we also allow dispensaries!)

I agree.

Also...not all caregivers are beating MMCs in price or quality. Many of them at least charge the same and claim better quality. I've experienced this and heard of it with other patients.

B. Brown in Thornton gives no free meds and offers 300/ounces of only 2 different strains. And that's if he's your primary!!!! When price and variety were mentioned he got mad and said find a new caregiver I've already got copies of your paperwork, try craigslsit. Never heard from him again. There's a POS if you're looking for one. Should he get more patients? No.

I also agree with some others that mentioned not enough basement growers spoke up when it mattered.

[shadycloud]

well it's getting late i was thinking a caregivers union- offering newsletters and a website as a networking tool to have ideas in common with business for everyone from the 1 patient cg to the 3 warehouse guy, one common guide for everyone to use, find out about new laws for the union, show up on important days in court for support to the union , and vote to better structure the rules for all members in the union to benefit for the good!

benefits
law structure
sales tax strikes
legal info

shadycloud people here to help get it going who's with me

[TheReleafCenter]

So I'm going to try to explain a few things as best I can:


Are you suggesting they werent in favor of it? You obviously werent paying much attention to the media blitz Josh Stanley went on when the bill was being debated. Who wouldnt be in favor of a law that makes you the only legal entity to produce and sell a product?

We never donated a cent to CMMR, COMMR, etc. The only organizations we've supported have been SAFER, NORML, the American Cancer Society, Food Bank of the Rockies, RTD and MMAPR. The last is one everyone should really keep their eyes on, they're going to be doing some great things.

We came out repeatedly against 1284 as I've mentioned in countless threads. http://boards.cannabis.com/colorado-co/184440-take-five-minutes-contact-governor.html for example. Please don't lump us in with the handful of dispensaries that really did have a say.


You annoy the shit out of me. Centers are fucking up bad. The future is full legalization, and everyone growing there own so we dont have to pay $60 an eighth to some dispensary prick that doesnt know one thing about growing weed and pretending like its fucking medical and im a patient. Most of these dispensaries sell b grade, mite infested, moldy, warehouse bullshit, and lowball the basement growers who come with the FIRE. Do you know there are still more pot smokers without cards still, than with cards. Why should you have to pay a quack doctor, show 3 forms of id, and fill out 10 pages of paperwork just to buy a bag of homegrown smoke. Most of my friends that have cards cant afford to go to a "center". I sell quarters all day for $80, FIRE.

Sorry, my intent isn't to annoy the shit out of anyone. I just have a different point of view on things. You're absolutely right, there are some awful centers in there. We try to educate our patients on things to look for at other dispensaries when they shop around, we have blogs about it, how to tell if your bud has pests/mold/pm, tell them to black out the first five of their social, etc. If there is more education, these less reputable places go out of business.

When I (can afford to) go to traditional doctor for treatment, it's pretty much the same drill, right? You have to show the receptionist your ID and proof of insurance. You have to fill out a long patient history. You get the point.

Okay, let's say the MMC's close down. Scarcity becomes a huge issue because the remaining caregivers can't approach meeting the demand. Some who are new to medical marijuana have to turn to a black market they have no experience in and get swindled left and right.

Private caregivers prices go up because they have to provide all of the ancillary services MMC's did. They have to start making hash and edibles. They need delivery drivers, receptionists, waiting areas, security, more grow space, a whole host of things. I'm guessing we say bye to the $80 quarter.

Private caregivers aren't above any kind of scrutiny, either. I see them, all week long, bringing in buds with PM, mites, botrytis, and tell them that humans shouldn't smoke that. You think they're all just going home and calling it a loss? The truly greedy are the people who think they'll sink some money into their basement grow to make a quick buck, who cares if it's infested with bugs or mold? There's some dispensary rube out there that'll buy it! I see it all day long.

This is one area where the industry really let itself down: depending on people off the street to provide medical quality cannabis. There are a lot of patients that have never seen their caregiver again after signing up. Newbie growers that lost crops or, even worse, knowingly gave out bad meds out of fear they'd lose their patient. Caregivers selling patient information. Patients that have been through three, four different caregivers because of people like you that tell them to beware of all centers.

I'll get to legalization in a minute.


Centers are not the future, full legalization, and patients buying out of their own house at half price of what you and the other centers charge is the future. You can't compete with caregivers offering meds at $225 oz ALL the way down to $28 8th's and $8 grams. I'll never step foot in your schwag shop ever again and I'll advise everyone else I know to do the same.

I can't believe some of these dispensaries on this forum are stupid enough to talk shit to patients and show time and time again how greedy they are. Seems like most of the older disp owners know better, its just the stupid kids that don't. We should boycott all the dispensaries, not just the stupid pricks that don't know when to keep their mouths shut. QUIT paying their outrageous prices, and don't buy any meds over $35 8th. Put these cocksuckers out of business!

It only makes sense that patients will go to the black market to get their meds before paying double or even tripple, its not even an option for most patients. Who the fuck can afford to pay some center prick $50-60 an 8th to medicate? Like I said, caregivers will be taking care of the real patients, and centers will be taking care of the recreational smokers.

I really hope the disps get shit canned eventually and the ones that made millions by ripping patients off take it up the ass in federal prison, it would only be fair after what they've done to the patients, and caregivers. The dispensaries have lobbied with the government to take our rights away and they need to be boycotted.

$35 an eighth? I always paid $50, but I may just not have known the right people. See what I said above on how caregivers would have to price if there was a boycott of MMC's.

The schwag shop part hurts. I feel like we consistently get great feedback on our selection and quality.

I go out of my way to be cordial on here. I've never called a patient a cocksucker or a stupid prick before, so could you afford me the same level of decency? Let's be real about what the situation is.

If you went to the grocery store and bought a can of coke, you're going to pay more per can than if you had bought a case. It's just simple economics. Grams/eighths are always going to be more expensive. The second, and key part, is that when prices fall that dramatically in one market, there is lag in a second. The black market. I don't want to see people redistributing MMJ on the street. It's illegal.

As for all centers pulling for 1284, I think the article in the Westword did a great job of exposing how few people were really crafting the language of this thing and the limited interests they represented. Sure, they took a lot of money from people, but they weren't asking those people what they wanted. It didn't matter, CMMR was setting the agenda. Feel free to ask any of the CMMR chairs/reps how many conversations they had with The Releaf Center leading up to 1284. It's zero.

Now, for full scale legalization...

You don't like centers?

Just wait for your new friends. They're named Monsanto and Cargill, PM USA and RJR, Pfizer and Merck.

Those guys have ALWAYS stood up for patients.

[HighPopalorum]

Honestly, I wonder what kind of Frankenganja Monsanto would come up with using their genetic modification technologies.

[TheReleafCenter]

Honestly, I wonder what kind of Frankenganja Monsanto would come up with using their genetic modification technologies.

I think the first goal should be rescheduling. Let actual scientists have a crack at it.