religion, Creation, and Random occurrence?

[dkgpro]

Hey s

Just wondering, and since we're all high enough I'm sure, what are your views on not so much religion, but how we came to be, or exist.

I for one believe in this day most religious churches out there are for the donations and even most don't use proper bible teaching in their houses of god. Which makes a lot of todays generation take religion the wrong way I think, and there for throw the whole thought of a god out the window.

I just can't fathom that out of all the dead space in our universe this one planet randomly came to have everything our species and many more on earth to live. Even our universe acts by laws that if it didn't today, who know's what kind of crazy things would be happening to us, and the actual hard to believe thing is that it doesn't have to act by these laws at all, but continues to do so every day.

I could sit here and list all the "coincidences" for you, but rather please take a look at this unbiased list of facts about us and our universe.

Does God Exist - Six Reasons to Believe that God is Really There - Existence of God - Proof of God (http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html)

To me anything but creation, at least of our planet's life, seems realistically impossible, it seems people just don't want to believe it because how scary that makes things seem.. You could put the evidence in front of people's faces and some still wouldn't believe imo.

[dkgpro]

Also, a topic not discussed on that website, Ghosts, It seems to me a lot of people I know and ask have come in at least one encounter with a ghostly experience, I myself have to, and so has my grandmother and does in this house to this day (Never messed with drugs of any sort or marijuana).

If there is no after-life, and this was just a random happening how are ghosts physically, scientifically possible? It just doesn't add up and when you choose to believe and acknowledge the fact that they are real, regardless of if they are actually the presences of past life beings or not, they're there.

And it changes a lot for me to actually know that these types of things exist just on our planet, imagine what's out there!

[BlueBlazer]

It comes down to this, even if I agree complexity and order are proof of a creator, it does not prove the existence of the god of the bible. Why couldn't a "creator" be allah, odin, zeus, or buddha? If there is a creator, what makes anyone think the same conditions for life weren't provided for on other planets and life created there by the same creator being? Why does "proving" god exists always seem to "prove" that humankind is really, really special and exists alone in the universe?

For that matter, why would the creator being have to care about humans at all?

If your going to use complexity and order as "proof" of a creator, think of this:

If the universe is too complex and orderly to have just happened and god is an incomprehensibly complex and orderly being, then god can't have just happened.

[dkgpro]

It comes down to this, even if I agree complexity and order are proof of a creator, it does not prove the existence of the god of the bible. Why couldn't a "creator" be allah, odin, zeus, or buddha? If there is a creator, what makes anyone think the same conditions for life weren't provided for on other planets and life created there by the same creator being? Why does "proving" god exists always seem to "prove" that humankind is really, really special and exists alone in the universe?

For that matter, why would the creator being have to care about humans at all?

If your going to use complexity and order as "proof" of a creator, think of this:

If the universe is too complex and orderly to have just happened and god is an incomprehensibly complex and orderly being, then god can't have just happened.

I'm not saying the Christian god was the cause of all this, merely A higher power, and another good point about the creator having to be created, there could be higher powers above higher powers, God, Buddha, Ala, all could have been different higher powers, or rather all the same godly figure just differentiated by different cultures and religions.

Our universe not only has order to where our life could've been possible but sustains the same, temperature, distance, etc it needs to for us to survive today and does everyday.

Just because god is capable creating our life and everything we know, which obviously seems complex and orderly and amazing to us, doesn't quite mean were even a spec of what could be possible.

You say god couldn't have just happened because he'd be an incomprehensibly complex being, but he's only incomprehensibly complex from our tiny species point of view.

[BlueBlazer]

I'm not saying the Christian god was the cause of all this, merely A higher power, and another good point about the creator having to be created, there could be higher powers above higher powers, God, Buddha, Ala, all could have been different higher powers, or rather all the same godly figure just differentiated by different cultures and religions.

The link you provided with your "proof" is definitely Christian. You should maybe distance yourself from that if that's not your belief. From the Christian point of view none of those other "gods" are possible because there is only yahweh (in three parts) . . .


Our universe not only has order to where our life could've been possible but sustains the same, temperature, distance, etc it needs to for us to survive today and does everyday.

So far it has. Mankind has only been the dominant life form on this planet for a fraction of it's existence. One dominant species ruled the planet for far longer than we've been mucking about. Besides, if the conditions were different, there would be a different form of life pointing out how everything was perfect for their form of life. Just because the conditions were (and are for now) perfect for us to arrive doesn't prove the existence of god.


Just because god is capable creating our life and everything we know, which obviously seems complex and orderly and amazing to us, doesn't quite mean were even a spec of what could be possible.

You say god couldn't have just happened because he'd be an incomprehensibly complex being, but he's only incomprehensibly complex from our tiny species point of view.

The universe is only complex from our same point of view. If you say complexity and order must have a creator, then that creator must have a creator. That's simple logic.

[gypski]

A wise man once told me, the answer to live is Shit Happens. :S2:

[BlueBlazer]

A wise man once told me, the answer to live is Shit Happens. :S2:

lol, and as Bill Cosby said "first you say it, then you do it." :D

[dkgpro]

The link you provided with your "proof" is definitely Christian. You should maybe distance yourself from that if that's not your belief. From the Christian point of view none of those other "gods" are possible because there is only yahweh (in three parts) . . . [quote=BlueBlazer]

I understand that, and if I had to put a name on the creator I believe in, it would probably be the christian god. Although I do realize the religion isn't 100% on with the bible and god's teachings, it's a good teaching to live a good, healthy life. And even the bible itself has been defiled by the generations of man who most likely altered a lot of it by now.



.[QUOTE]So far it has. Mankind has only been the dominant life form on this planet for a fraction of it's existence. One dominant species ruled the planet for far longer than we've been mucking about. Besides, if the conditions were different, there would be a different form of life pointing out how everything was perfect for their form of life. Just because the conditions were (and are for now) perfect for us to arrive doesn't prove the existence of god.

I'm not really looking at life from our human being point of view, but from the point of view of every lifeform that has ever existed on earth, including those way back when.

You're right it doesn't prove the existence of god, none of the crazy coincidences, no matter how many I bring up, will never PROVE the existance, there is always that small chance that it just happened.
That's where faith comes in to play..
Logically it is more likely, with all the things that happen to keep us alive everyday, that something sustains the balance, and it obviously has to be something beyond our imagining of complexity.



The universe is only complex from our same point of view. If you say complexity and order must have a creator, then that creator must have a creator. That's simple logic.

I never said complexity and order HAD to have a creator, I just said it's very unlikely and would be more logical to see this as creation rather than.... just nothing turning into something, or a random occurrence.

[BlueBlazer]

You're right it doesn't prove the existence of god, none of the crazy coincidences, no matter how many I bring up, will never PROVE the existance, there is always that small chance that it just happened.
That's where faith comes in to play..

You're missing my point entirely. What makes "it just being that way" a statistically lower probability than "god did it"? And if god had to create the universe, why didn't anything have to create god? I know that's where faith comes in. I once had faith in Santa Claus . . .


I never said complexity and order HAD to have a creator, I just said it's very unlikely and would be more logical to see this as creation rather than.... just nothing turning into something, or a random occurrence.

Again, why is it more unlikely that the universe is a random occurrence than a created thing?


My dad used to say that thinking the universe just happened would be like finding a watch and thinking it just happened.

It's true the watch was created . . . by man . . . who was created by god (according to many)

so take the watch analogy one step farther

the universe was created by god . . . who was created by ? . . . who was created by ? . . . ad infinitum

[pepurr]

There is no point in proving God exists or not. Except in providing an argument for one's own point of view regarding religion.

Complexity certainly can not be used as proof. If it could, we could call our selves gods. The reason is, the things we understand and build are vastly more complex than what we could ten thousand years ago. If a man from those remote times could see our way of life and the complexity of it, they would surly believe we are gods.

The only way God can be proved is by God proving its self. No matter what efforts we take through thought or physical action, the results can never be thought of as absolute proof for all people.

We, as living beings haven't been around that long. Not when you compare the age of the Earth or of the universe. The knowledge we have gained so far is small when you consider how much there is to learn. We are still in our infancy as a species who can learn. How could we be expected to prove or disprove such a thing as God with our limited knowledge?

For them who wish to believe, let them have that. It brings them comfort in times of hardship. It brings them joy to think they have been blessed.

Our lives are so short. We must find comfort and happiness where we can. The notion of God brings that for many.

[BlueBlazer]

Nicely said pepurr.

[psychocat]

I've always been of the opinion that religion is the most widespread form of insanity.

[beachguy in thongs]

We are still in our infancy as a species who can learn. How could we be expected to prove or disprove such a thing as God with our limited knowledge?

Look at the technological advances in the past 140 years, as compared to any other period of the past 15,000 years. What will happen when everyone is able to use the other 92%-93% of their brains? Will you still tell me that you, and your "Santa(s)" know everything, and, want to spread your beliefs by interacting with people who have questions about which direction they should take their life in?