LED EXPERIMENT - BLUE DOMINANT FLOWERING

[khyberkitsune]

Starting 12/12 immediately, they've rooted in the net pots, I'm using some sterilized creek pebble as a base to give the bottom some space for roots, and a rubberband to help hold the pots in place. This is major SWC, the trays are barely an inch and a half tall. Consider this a makeup for the lost PC case build.

30w for two plants, 8-460nm diodes and 4-660nm diodes per lamp. This should be fun!

[irydyum]

I'm gonna hide out in the back and watch this one. Wavelength has had my mind in shambles thinking lately, it'll be neat to see what happens here.

[khyberkitsune]

I'm gonna hide out in the back and watch this one. Wavelength has had my mind in shambles thinking lately, it'll be neat to see what happens here.

I'm wondering this as well, so I'm going to futz around a bit with these lights.

So far, so good. The system holds up well. I am thinking about putting the airstone directly under the net pots, though, for direct root mass aeration and the formation of air roots, and to allow the longer roots just suck up nutes as needed.

In fact, let me do that.

[khyberkitsune]

This should also keep the water loss due to bubbles popping all over the place to a minimum.

[demoreal]

This will be a fun one! It would be really cool to do an identical red LED grow right next to it. Same food, same strain. Just an idea.
Good Luck!!!

[GP73LPC]

in :smokin:

[CovertCarpenter]

...de LAWN chaiah on dis here one..!

I swear, as soon as I have some money to be buying expensive LEDs, I'm going to be looking for me soldiering ir'n...

GO khyberkitsune! :thumbsup:

[khyberkitsune]

...de LAWN chaiah on dis here one..!

I swear, as soon as I have some money to be buying expensive LEDs, I'm going to be looking for me soldiering ir'n...

GO khyberkitsune! :thumbsup:

Soon enough, you may not even need the soldering iron! I think we'll get snap-together stuff sooner or later!

[khyberkitsune]

So far, so good! They're alive, well, and responding. The back one is starting to flower out, the front one has teensy wisps of pistil hairs visible.

[CovertCarpenter]

... the eye candy, khyberkitsune...

so reminiscent of the acid posters of the 70s... I looove the garden, mon! It will be interesting to see the characteristics of the buds when you're done...

[TerraPharma]

Soon enough, you may not even need the soldering iron! I think we'll get snap-together stuff sooner or later!

I'm surprised there isn't any snap together stuff.

If there were...

Would you rather individual LEDs? Or clusters, say nine blue, or nine red?

[khyberkitsune]

I'm surprised there isn't any snap together stuff.

If there were...

Would you rather individual LEDs? Or clusters, say nine blue, or nine red?

Individual clusters would be my preferred method. Some panel makers have already hit upon that idea but they're also not doing it how I would do it, so I've got some room to play around and super-improve design.

Although, in very small areas, individual diodes might offer the better choice.

[CovertCarpenter]

...because if I could customize a standard size single LED grouping like L3g0, I'd be building it right now. RIGHT now. Be even nicer if there were standard power supplies that were generically attachable...

One of the reasons for the insane amount of innovation in the PC (computer) arena is the level of interchangeability, not the very few instances of proprietary protectiveness...

[khyberkitsune]

Quick note - Some of the fan leaves are forming trichomes right to the tip of the leaves. I'll get pictures when I get my camera batteries charged.

[420session]

Quick note - Some of the fan leaves are forming trichomes right to the tip of the leaves. I'll get pictures when I get my camera batteries charged.

Looks good. And, yeah chargem' batteries.

I wanna see how beautiful they are. So your set up is two seperate LED light with single color each? That's one route that sounds good, I've been curious of putting a small motor and putting my LED lights on a slow rotation. I wonder if that helps balance out the plant getting what light it needs the most whenever it feels it needs that spectrum being thrown at it- has anyone ever tried this? Just throwing that out there...

[khyberkitsune]

Looks good. And, yeah chargem' batteries.

I wanna see how beautiful they are. So your set up is two seperate LED light with single color each? That's one route that sounds good, I've been curious of putting a small motor and putting my LED lights on a slow rotation. I wonder if that helps balance out the plant getting what light it needs the most whenever it feels it needs that spectrum being thrown at it- has anyone ever tried this? Just throwing that out there...


Nah, I'm using two colors in each lamp, there's just way more blue than red diodes.

Update time. Even though I have better airflow for this box, I'm getting the same kind of issue as with the other plants. I'm using a weaker nutrient solution as well, and it's well-balanced. Very odd.

But the buds are coming along! Nice and frosty. When I can find a regular light powerful enough to outshine the LEDs, I'll take some real-color photos. Or maybe when I do the next tray cleaning. I tried to get a closeup of fan leaves developing trichomes all the way down, but it's tough to make out in the images. :(

[GetThisOrDie]

Try using your flash on the camera lol. It should be many times brighter than the LEDs. Works for me...

Interesting experiment by the way, im eager to see the final product.

[khyberkitsune]

Try using your flash on the camera lol. It should be many times brighter than the LEDs. Works for me...

Interesting experiment by the way, im eager to see the final product.

No such luck. Even that 30w of LED is brighter than the flash, and my Coleman CFL lantern at the same time!

I have to turn the power off and flash to get an image. Speaking of, here you go, I did just that and tried my best.

See the trichomes spreading all the way to the leaf tip in the second picture? :D

Also, added picture of the typical damage I'm seeing throughout my entire closet, minus mothers which are fine.

[khyberkitsune]

Well, I've been slowly but surely watching the girls doing their thing. With airflow problems addressed all burning has halted.

Frosty, though. Have a LED and flash shot.

[AquaponicHerb]

I've been following this. Curious to see how it turns out.

[Daddynobucks]

Also, added picture of the typical damage I'm seeing throughout my entire closet, minus mothers which are fine.

So has anyone figured out what is going on with the leaves? It is a problem for me as well, and I can't get a handle on it:mad:

My problem comes right after changing to 12 hrs. the exact same look of the leaves

Daddy

[khyberkitsune]

So has anyone figured out what is going on with the leaves? It is a problem for me as well, and I can't get a handle on it:mad:

My problem comes right after changing to 12 hrs. the exact same look of the leaves

Daddy

My best guess for me was to fix my airflow problem and cut back a bit on my nutrients. Since then, the damage hasn't made much of any further progress.

Comparatively speaking, the blue-dominant dual-band lights are making a frostier plant versus the more balanced panels, and the strain is the same - Hindu Skunk.

[robndebz]

nice pics, espacialy the 2nd 1.

[khyberkitsune]

Yea yea yea, I've been slacking on this one. I've just been letting it cruise while I handle other stuff.

TWO WEEKS TO GO!

[neceros]

Looking sticky!

[runitbyron]

I just tuned in today on what you're doing. Looks great so far. I have been working with 300w LED Panels for a year now and I am enjoying the results. I have evolved to the point of putting them on Light Track 5's and move 4 - 300w LED panels over a 4'x8' tray about an inch above the canopy (sometimes touching). If you're interested I will show you pics of the great results. I also had a similar problem with the leaves bleaching out, it turned out to be a nutrient lock out. I remedied it with an amazing product called Sea Green.
I have been using many different panels with different color combinations, so I am very interested in your blue dominate experiment. I am working with a new company that will make me any combo I want so I'd like to learn any color advice you may have.

[khyberkitsune]

With 4 300w panels, I don't see why you'd put them on the light mover instead of having each 300w panel cover a 4x2 area over the tray and save yourself some power and heat by eliminating the light mover. Actually, I'm just using 120w over a 4x2 area and doing rather well.

Trichome production is controlled by blue light and partially by genetics. Trichomes are produced partially as a protective response against damaging EM radiation starting at around 460nm and dropping into the UV range. If you want something for hash, you're going to want LOTS of blue, approximately 60% of the panel will need to be of blue wavelengths. Supplement that with only 660nm red for inducing flowering during 12/12 and you're good to go.

[khyberkitsune]

Harvested and dried - weigh-in at:

14.1g. I expected more like 10g with the stress I put these plants through, though it will likely be about 10g once the stems are removed. So from 30w total LED I got a half-ounce before de-stemming and curing. For those that prefer it, that's just under .5g/w with the most basic nutrient solution for feeding.

Trichome density is pretty nice. I'll try a rig to get a good close-up, but no guarantees. There are many more trichomes versus the stuff under the quad-band prototype.

[CovertCarpenter]

...wow.

I had a particular blend of spectrae in mind when I started planning the LED I'd really like to have, and you may have just forced me to reconsider the balance!

Was planning on something like 50% 660nm, 10% 630nm, 10% 610nm, 20% 460nm, and 5% 'full-ish' spectrum white, with 5% in the far red @ 720nm... trying to mimic the curve that the plants seem to like.

NOW, I gotta figg'r out how I'm gonna squeeeeeze a lot more blue in there, as well as some UV/'short blue'...

You've just complicated my plans, tho wonderfully! I was also thinking of throwing in some RGB tricolours, with a way to dial the individual R, G, and B up as needed (the G would mainly be for viewing the garden in 'nighttime' without waking up the babies).

Where would you recommend me sourcing the various colours, khyberkitsune? Looking for mostly 1w emitters, and 20 or 30 degree spread on them, for penetration.

Your gardens rock, mon! :thumbsup:

[khyberkitsune]

Most 1w emitters aren't going to have 20-30 degree beam without reflection cups. The typical natural emission angle for good 1w diodes is minimum 60 degrees.

If you're going to go blue-heavy, ignore 610nm, and 630nm, typical RGB diodes are poorly matched for emissions (they're meant more for display purposes than horticulture,) and UV isn't worth much, you get the same effect just by going heavier on the 460nm light. Far red is only usable in combination with 660-670nm radiation and only when it's far-red in the 720-740nm range to stimulate the Emerson effect for enhanced photosynthesis, but even that isn't necessary as the blue light will help handle that job as well.

Mouser.com should be able to help you find what you want.

[runitbyron]

I put the LED panels on movers so I can get the most light intensity to the flowers (hung 1 in. above the canopy)and give all the plants an even hit of light. I keeps the canopy flat and all the bud develop well even 12 in. below the canopy. It's working, I'm getting 8 oz. per light right now with a 7:2 Red:Blue ratio. Sounds like I can do better by using your blue dominate formula. So how about 50% 460nm, 10% 420nm and 40% 660? Does that sound about right?

[sunotorp]

khyberkitsune:
So just so we're clear, you found that you got more trich formation with the Blue dominant lights, while retaining density/mass? Or did it increase mass as well?

Would you still reccomend a more "traditional" red dominant LED panel that uses like an 80/20 split of 660nm red's and 460nm blue's, for vegging, and then switching to this blue dominant panel for flowering?

If that is the case, if you were to do it all with just one panel in the same room, then couldn't you do this with a panel of approx 50/50 split 460nm blue / 660nm red? During Vegging, you shut off a bunch of the blue's to get your 80/20 red/blue split, and then during flowering, you shut off some of the red's to get a 40/60 red/blue split? Would this be ideal then? This would also increase light output during flowering which is ideal if anything correct?

Also are you a fan of just using dual band lighting in the 460/660 range and forgoing any other wavelength's for veg and flower?

I'm trying to formulate some plans for some DIY LED panels I'm making for a friend's 8 pot hydro setup that I intend to run fully off LED. I appreciate your input or any one elses as well! thanks.

[khyberkitsune]

I put the LED panels on movers so I can get the most light intensity to the flowers (hung 1 in. above the canopy)and give all the plants an even hit of light. I keeps the canopy flat and all the bud develop well even 12 in. below the canopy. It's working, I'm getting 8 oz. per light right now with a 7:2 Red:Blue ratio. Sounds like I can do better by using your blue dominate formula. So how about 50% 460nm, 10% 420nm and 40% 660? Does that sound about right?

That sounds like it might work, although newly-gathered information regarding my quad-band with 420nm suggests that 420nm might be pointless altogether.

I need to retract a prior statement about 630nm diodes. I keep forgetting they've got the higher photosynthetic efficiency rate for just basic phytochemical processes (just love looking at dichroic grows, though!) But DO avoid the 610nm diodes.


khyberkitsune:
So just so we're clear, you found that you got more trich formation with the Blue dominant lights, while retaining density/mass? Or did it increase mass as well?

Would you still reccomend a more "traditional" red dominant LED panel that uses like an 80/20 split of 660nm red's and 460nm blue's, for vegging, and then switching to this blue dominant panel for flowering?

If that is the case, if you were to do it all with just one panel in the same room, then couldn't you do this with a panel of approx 50/50 split 460nm blue / 660nm red? During Vegging, you shut off a bunch of the blue's to get your 80/20 red/blue split, and then during flowering, you shut off some of the red's to get a 40/60 red/blue split? Would this be ideal then? This would also increase light output during flowering which is ideal if anything correct?

Also are you a fan of just using dual band lighting in the 460/660 range and forgoing any other wavelength's for veg and flower?

I'm trying to formulate some plans for some DIY LED panels I'm making for a friend's 8 pot hydro setup that I intend to run fully off LED. I appreciate your input or any one elses as well! thanks.


1. For what I was doing and for the stress I incurred during the run, I got more trich formation with approximately equal mass. There's a fine line of blue/red I've been tweaking and still not hit the perfect spot.

2. For veg, those would work fine, and I would suggest switching to a more blue-dominant panel (the 40:60 r:b I've got right now has the best all-around performance I've seen from a panel using 1w diodes) for the fruiting and flowering phases.

3. Such a complicated setup like that only adds costs and more points of failure. I would not recommend it at all, just beam as much light as you can onto the plants. Also, just shutting off sources of usable light isn't a good idea. More power, more light, more penetration.

4. Not at all. My particular lights were meant more for seedlings and cuttings, so going dual-band was the simpler method. I just wanted to test these babies out for flowering and got some interesting results that were unexpected considering the very similar regimen given to other plants, minus the light balance. I think quad-band for certain plants might be a waste (cannabis being one that so far I've seen no added benefit in quad band versus tri-band with the same ratio of red:blue) I think for basic starter stuff a dual band is ideal, and for more complex stuff, tri-band will do most everything. Perhaps more complex plants would benefit from some deeper blue but most of my herbs and fruiting plants have had no noticable difference between many different bands and just a few bands.

5. I can give advice but I can't give out my specifics on my panels internals. Business secrets and all that.

[krazyken]

I will be documenting a customers grow with my ratio coming up! This will be a medical cannabis grow in Cali! I love it!:smokin:

[khyberkitsune]

Can't wait to see! Give me a link when you start!

[ChrisGGG]

I know this is a little old, but I'm thinking of supplementing my current lights with some blue during flowering. Would you suggest just 460nm or a ratio with 420nm? I was thinking a 60:40 split.

[khyberkitsune]

I know this is a little old, but I'm thinking of supplementing my current lights with some blue during flowering. Would you suggest just 460nm or a ratio with 420nm? I was thinking a 60:40 split.

Well before we go into that, what are your current lights? THat will help us out in figuring out whether or not you truly need to supplement.

[ChrisGGG]

Right now I have a 250W HPS, but I would like to transition to LED. I was planning on converting my veg first, then eventually flowering. Whats your opinion on 2W vs 3W vs 5W LEDs?

[khyberkitsune]

Right now I have a 250W HPS, but I would like to transition to LED. I was planning on converting my veg first, then eventually flowering. Whats your opinion on 2W vs 3W vs 5W LEDs?

No true 5w single-chip emitters out yet so worthless.

The true 3w diodes I'm using are actually nice, I'm using them right now in a few secret gardens of my own.

Are you only using te 250w HPS in both veg and flower? If that is the case, the most you'd probably needis a 135-165w panel to truly replace the HID from start to finish.

[williboy]

Wow, loved this one! Don't really see huge difference in them, do you in person? Also looked at the 'HydrogrowLED', modular construction. The fans. ballasts, and LED light modules are user replaceable, so you don't have down time. Really some of the most amazing growth in both rooms. (veg & flowering) as soon as I can scrape it together I am a buyer.

[Narlzbek]

LEDs r very affordable now.. Go to Sunshinesystems.com, Red/Blue LEDS 28w = 250 watts of hps. U can get 3 lights for $300. They work great!! Have friends growing chilis and peppers with great success.

...de LAWN chaiah on dis here one..!

I swear, as soon as I have some money to be buying expensive LEDs, I'm going to be looking for me soldiering ir'n...

GO khyberkitsune! :thumbsup:

[MEDEDCANNABIS]

weeeellll, who among us is wealthy enough to run these new plasma lights, jumping in at a meager $1500 usd for 400w. it combines spectrums so one does it all. it doesnt produce the heat just like flouros, and lasts longer than flouros. these are the claims.