Genetics question

[Justabloke]

Hi All,

I'm curious if a/some growers can tell me if the genetics of the various med strains/strands mutate over time and distance.

IE: Is Northern Lights geneticly the same now in Denver that it was when it was created in, say, Detroit? If there is mutation what causes it beside intential cross breeding.

Thanks,
JaB

[Dorje113]

Hi All,

I'm curious if a/some growers can tell me if the genetics of the various med strains/strands mutate over time and distance.

IE: Is Northern Lights geneticly the same now in Denver that it was when it was created in, say, Detroit? If there is mutation what causes it beside intential cross breeding.

Thanks,
JaB

They definitely change over time, because a lot of the original hybrids have been lost, or at least are to me. In the early 90's, I had Skunk #1, NL #1, Hash Plant, Cali. Orange and Silver Haze x Skunk #1. These strains were THE original hybrids (except haze x skunk, but real Haze is a pure Sativa with 100+ days flowering time) because they were created from naturally occurring non-hybrid varieties like Thai, Afghani, Columbian Gold, etc... Maybe someone still has these genetics as they were when they were first created, but I haven't seen real Skunk #1 in years. The stuff I had actually smelled like a skunk, and the odor was too strong to mask, even a small bud in wrapped in 3 plastic bags reeked uncontrollably.

Then there is also the issue of genetic stability, which a lot of modern strains lack completely. Some are just clones from fortunate 1st gen. crosses that may never be recreated, so the degradation associated with keeping the original around for so long, and clones from clones from clones, etc causes the plant's quality to decrease over time. For instance, I tried starting Jack Herer seeds many years ago, and the result from starting Jack is one of FOUR different common phenotypes, and you need to start A LOT of Jack seeds to find a good mom. Finding a similar plant in the future might take starting 50 seeds to find the one that was similar to the one before it. A plant that has been bred with stable genetics produces seeds that, when germinated, are very similar to one another. Because of that, strains can show a lot of variation.

Then there is the current labeling of strains "Sativa" or "Indica", this is almost complete BS, as most strains presented as pure Sativa are anything but. They are all hybrid crosses. For example, I'm in a disp, and they have some herb labeled "Silver Haze". Great, I like Haze, and asked if this is actually real Haze. The grower happened to be there, and he said flowering time is 60 some days. Well, this clearly isn't pure Haze. Not even close. It was very good herb that smelled like Haze, but to call that plant Silver Haze is ridiculous. So, some differences in strains you see are a result of misrepresentation. Intentional or not, unfortunately it's a widespread problem.

[Justabloke]

Morning Darje,

Wow, thanks for the quick and complete reply. :thumbsup:


Do you think genetic manipulation (other than cloning) would help the genetic stability of today's meds or are we asking for trouble doing that? Would national growing standards help reduce mutation? What's a phenotype?

Sorry to seem so ignorant on the subject. The last two plants I try to grow grew tall and spindly even though I kept the CFL within inches of the top of the plant. Which, in hindsight, was probably a good thing as I didn't take into account for the fragrance factor. That would have gotten me busted sure as shit because I wasn't a patient back in 03.

j

[Dorje113]

Morning Darje,

Wow, thanks for the quick and complete reply. :thumbsup:


Do you think genetic manipulation (other than cloning) would help the genetic stability of today's meds or are we asking for trouble doing that? Would national growing standards help reduce mutation? What's a phenotype?

j

No, genetic manipulation is bad IMO. Good breeding and a seed bank would be the best thing for us, I think... some veggie growers keep a seed bank so they can go back to old heirloom varieties, I hope someone has a cannabis seed bank. If so, I'd love to get back the old Skunk #1....

[Adamkadmon]

Good breeding and a seed bank would be the best thing for us, I think...

/signed

[funkfingers]

:jointsmile::jointsmile::jointsmile:indeed

[funkfingers]

I recommend that people keep seeds around of ANY plant that bears fruit(or vegetable) of some kind or another.. They may come in REAL handy in the not to distant future :wtf::wtf:

To anwser the question on what a phenotype is, It's the variation expressed in any living offspring, that have the same parents, kinda like if your sister has red hair and you don't.. There are some really good books on breeding, plus a ton of stuff online if you want to learn more.. It can get pretty complicated with all the poly-hybrids that are being interbred nowadays.. In most public school systems this was touched on in biology class, IMO it's way above most people at that age for it to have any real life application..:rastasmoke::rastasmoke:

[lampost]

I don't know that much but it seems like the gene pool is becoming tainted by all this aimless breeding! And then you hear talk of some of the first killer landraces that no longer exist because they've been bred out of existence and it make me sad.... and then there's no question that the gene pool is becoming tainted!

[funkfingers]

:rastasmoke::rastasmoke::rastasmoke::rastasmoke:

[funkfingers]

Met a guy the other day who has been in pakistan, afghanistan, thailand,africa,ect collecting landrace seeds, for the last 5 or so years..Some of the afghani's, and paki's sound pretty interesting..

[lampost]

Wow! Set for life it sounds to me!
Hey Funk have you tried that Pure Pakistani X-18? I think that's what it was... I wanna pick up some of those seeds eventually!
I always wanted to get Malawi Gold too. I remember reading about it back when I was like 16 LOL. They said it had super high THCV and it made you trip. But I don't think they knew much about THCV back then.

[funkfingers]

Wow! Set for life it sounds to me!
Hey Funk have you tried that Pure Pakistani X-18? I think that's what it was... I wanna pick up some of those seeds eventually!
I always wanted to get Malawi Gold too. I remember reading about it back when I was like 16 LOL. They said it had super high THCV and it made you trip. But I don't think they knew much about THCV back then.


Tom Hill Is the Man bro:D:D I think that all his offerings are worth picking up, for the breeding possibilities alone.. Someone I know just popped some a malawi gold cross..If only herb was really legal and I could grow out all the strains i've ever wanted::wakes up from dream::maybe one day if the gov don't fuck it up:thumbsup:

[Justabloke]

I get the seed bank thing but I was always taught that seeds (any kind) will only last for a few months then they die off.

Yes! I do think we should stock up on not only seed bearing plants of all kinds but anything that help get you though what/if ever anything that is going to happen in 2012 (Yellowstone popping off?).

I wish I had the space to grow! I would try it again if I did. Clones are cheap and quailty meds so that would save me sooooooo much over goin' out and buyin' 8ths 3,4,5 times a month.

Until then, I guess I just learn so I don't have tall spindley plants next time. :thumbsup:

[Justabloke]

Oh and thank you all for the Grow 101 session. :i feel stupid::thumbsup:

[funkfingers]

I get the seed bank thing but I was always taught that seeds (any kind) will only last for a few months then they die off.

Yes! I do think we should stock up on not only seed bearing plants of all kinds but anything that help get you though what/if ever anything that is going to happen in 2012 (Yellowstone popping off?).

I wish I had the space to grow! I would try it again if I did. Clones are cheap and quailty meds so that would save me sooooooo much over goin' out and buyin' 8ths 3,4,5 times a month.

Until then, I guess I just learn so I don't have tall spindley plants next time. :thumbsup:

Seeds can last for YEARS if stored properly...Do a guerrilla grow, not to late to get a spot going outside..OVerGrow The Government:rastasmoke::rastasmoke:

[Justabloke]

Seeds can last for YEARS if stored properly...Do a guerrilla grow, not to late to get a spot going outside..OVerGrow The Government:rastasmoke::rastasmoke:

What about H20? Won't I need a steady supply of it? If not then I have a good place behind my house that no one ever goes and is pretty hidden from the air.

[funkfingers]

What about H20? Won't I need a steady supply of it? If not then I have a good place behind my house that no one ever goes and is pretty hidden from the air.

That's the Fun PArt.stoner ingenuity..I've got faith..There has been spots where I've had to lug water to the spot..not so much fun bot doable..

[Justabloke]

That's the Fun PArt.stoner ingenuity..I've got faith..There has been spots where I've had to lug water to the spot..not so much fun bot doable..

Hummm I might just have to go for a "walk" behind the house tomorrow when I'm feeling better. Dancing at The Church can be quite painful for those of us with back prollems.

As can hauling water to a grow site. But yes, I do think I can work something out.

It wouldn't be the first time I've gotten a big stinky buds but it will be the first time I've grown some.

[MEDEDCANNABIS]

I don't know that much but it seems like the gene pool is becoming tainted by all this aimless breeding! And then you hear talk of some of the first killer landraces that no longer exist because they've been bred out of existence and it make me sad.... and then there's no question that the gene pool is becoming tainted!

i couldnt agree more

meded so you can mededicate to mededitate

[throatstick]

Seeds can last for YEARS if stored properly...Do a guerrilla grow, not to late to get a spot going outside..OVerGrow The Government:rastasmoke::rastasmoke:

I WANT TO DO AN OUTDOORS BUT it's still cold where i am and snows still at nite lmao.im hoping to start some indoors and move them out doors soon if this weather lets up.

[Klonzinc]

I recommend that people keep seeds around of ANY plant that bears fruit(or vegetable) of some kind or another.. They may come in REAL handy in the not to distant future :wtf::wtf:

To anwser the question on what a phenotype is, It's the variation expressed in any living offspring, that have the same parents, kinda like if your sister has red hair and you don't.. There are some really good books on breeding, plus a ton of stuff online if you want to learn more.. It can get pretty complicated with all the poly-hybrids that are being interbred nowadays.. In most public school systems this was touched on in biology class, IMO it's way above most people at that age for it to have any real life application..:rastasmoke::rastasmoke:

Good answer but vague.

A phenotype is a plants observable traits, such as height, leaf color etc. The genetic contribution to the phenotype is called the genotype. Some traits are largely determined by the genotype, while other traits are largely determined by environmental factors.

[Dorje113]

Met a guy the other day who has been in pakistan, afghanistan, thailand,africa,ect collecting landrace seeds, for the last 5 or so years..Some of the afghani's, and paki's sound pretty interesting..

That's awesome! Please let me know if there's any chance he's willing to share!

[throatstick]

I recommend that people keep seeds around of ANY plant that bears fruit(or vegetable) of some kind or another.. They may come in REAL handy in the not to distant future :wtf::wtf:

:

yup

[Justabloke]

Ok, here's another question for you...

Say I did want to grow outside. Could the plants withstand weather like we're having tonight? If not, when should I plant them?

Also, what do I do if I'm starting in bad dirt? Any place I can take a sample for testing for fert content as well as contamination from chemicals?

What's a good ballpark figure of how much it would take to start two outside?

j

[funkfingers]

They really can't survive @ temps below 50 , so usually after the 1st of june is a good rule of thumb( unless you have cold frames)..I would bring your own dirt to the sight. It will save you time and money of having the soil tested/using the local soil which tends to be highly acidic..

There are soil mixes you can make that will not require nutrients for about 2 months. Then supplemental Nutrients may be needed to get maximum potential out of the plants.. Remember, when they're little animals love them, so prepare for that..

I would say you the least you'll end up spending is 50$ the most 100$.

Grow some trees!!:rastasmoke::rastasmoke::rastasmoke:

[lampost]

Seems to me like you'd want to get a relatively quick-finishing strain too. I Don't know when plants start to flower here, but I was looking at a sunrise/sunset calendar and the photoperiod is 14/10 (light/dark) on August 9. It doesn't go to 12/12 until late September. I imagine outdoor plants start to flower though well before the photoperiod is 12/12... but nonetheless I wouldn't want any 12-week plants and trying to finish in October/November when it's snowing..
Then again I don't know shit about outdoors here!

[funkfingers]

Almost anything will finish here (provided you do what's suggested) except really long flowering sativas..We've had 70 day flowering plants finish in Co.:D

[Justabloke]

They really can't survive @ temps below 50 , so usually after the 1st of june is a good rule of thumb( unless you have cold frames)..I would bring your own dirt to the sight. It will save you time and money of having the soil tested/using the local soil which tends to be highly acidic..

There are soil mixes you can make that will not require nutrients for about 2 months. Then supplemental Nutrients may be needed to get maximum potential out of the plants.. Remember, when they're little animals love them, so prepare for that..

I would say you the least you'll end up spending is 50$ the most 100$.

Grow some trees!!:rastasmoke::rastasmoke::rastasmoke:

Thanks Funk :thumbsup:

I'm sure I'll end up having more questions for you. :i feel stupid: But in the mean time, it's bed time fer moi.

[Justabloke]

Almost anything will finish here (provided you do what's suggested) except really long flowering sativas..We've had 70 day flowering plants finish in Co.:D

I was thinking a nice Nothern Lights and White Widow or Cristal (a mix of the two).

I dunno yet tho...I guess I still need more info (and money).

[funkfingers]

Anything that grows well in the hash making regions of the world performs outstanding here..pretty similar climates..I would suggest ak's, blueberry's,
kushes, hasplants, ect... maybe one more snow to go:thumbsup:

[puntacometa]

Thanks Funk :thumbsup:

I'm sure I'll end up having more questions for you. :i feel stupid: But in the mean time, it's bed time fer moi.

I've had seven foot tall flowering plants out all night here in temps below 40 degrees with no ill effects. Healthy as can be. Purps them out nicely as well. I'd keep your vegging plants out of temps below 45 unless they are cold weather strains.

[ThaiBuddhaMan]

I've had seven foot tall flowering plants out all night here in temps below 40 degrees with no ill effects. Healthy as can be. Purps them out nicely as well....

Below 40 WOW! That's low but awesome you can get your room that low. When I run purps of any sorts, I usually try to get my room below 60 (the lower the better but trying to balance costs too) and that's about after 2 weeks of 12/12 (if a fast strain then usually about 4-8days after flip

[Justabloke]

There are soil mixes you can make that will not require nutrients for about 2 months. Then supplemental Nutrients may be needed to get maximum potential out of the plants.. Remember, when they're little animals love them, so prepare for that..

I would say you the least you'll end up spending is 50$ the most 100$.

Grow some trees!!:rastasmoke::rastasmoke::rastasmoke:

Thanks for that info Funk! Can you tell me what soil I will wanna get/where to get it? Also, how much will I want for 2 or 3 plants? How big will I want to dig the holes? What supplies besides dirt and clones will I need? Wanna help? ;) lol

:dance:
j

[lampost]

I heard May15th was a good planting day here. May snow once again, but the ground is warm enough now and it won't stick!

Damnnit! I wish I had somewhere to grow outside!

[Justabloke]

Can anyone tell me what soil I will wanna get/where to get it? Also, how much will I want for 2 or 3 plants? How big will I want to dig the holes? What supplies besides dirt and clones will I need, please?

Tankx :)
j

[puntacometa]

Below 40 WOW! That's low but awesome you can get your room that low. When I run purps of any sorts, I usually try to get my room below 60 (the lower the better but trying to balance costs too) and that's about after 2 weeks of 12/12 (if a fast strain then usually about 4-8days after flip


I've got a greenhouse/darkroom combo but I'm a dirt grower and my plants are outside right now. The photocycle is changing now so I'm dollying them into the darkroom but they've been tolerating temperatures in the mid 30's at night recently.

[puntacometa]

They definitely change over time, because a lot of the original hybrids have been lost, or at least are to me. In the early 90's, I had Skunk #1, NL #1, Hash Plant, Cali. Orange and Silver Haze x Skunk #1. These strains were THE original hybrids (except haze x skunk, but real Haze is a pure Sativa with 100+ days flowering time) because they were created from naturally occurring non-hybrid varieties like Thai, Afghani, Columbian Gold, etc... Maybe someone still has these genetics as they were when they were first created, but I haven't seen real Skunk #1 in years. The stuff I had actually smelled like a skunk, and the odor was too strong to mask, even a small bud in wrapped in 3 plastic bags reeked uncontrollably.

Then there is also the issue of genetic stability, which a lot of modern strains lack completely. Some are just clones from fortunate 1st gen. crosses that may never be recreated, so the degradation associated with keeping the original around for so long, and clones from clones from clones, etc causes the plant's quality to decrease over time. For instance, I tried starting Jack Herer seeds many years ago, and the result from starting Jack is one of FOUR different common phenotypes, and you need to start A LOT of Jack seeds to find a good mom. Finding a similar plant in the future might take starting 50 seeds to find the one that was similar to the one before it. A plant that has been bred with stable genetics produces seeds that, when germinated, are very similar to one another. Because of that, strains can show a lot of variation.

Then there is the current labeling of strains "Sativa" or "Indica", this is almost complete BS, as most strains presented as pure Sativa are anything but. They are all hybrid crosses. For example, I'm in a disp, and they have some herb labeled "Silver Haze". Great, I like Haze, and asked if this is actually real Haze. The grower happened to be there, and he said flowering time is 60 some days. Well, this clearly isn't pure Haze. Not even close. It was very good herb that smelled like Haze, but to call that plant Silver Haze is ridiculous. So, some differences in strains you see are a result of misrepresentation. Intentional or not, unfortunately it's a widespread problem.


I really appreciate this post. I do not have the experence that you have and it's wonderful to be able to get this kind of discussion here. I've very interested in this subject. My mentor/former caregiver has some pretty extensive experience with genetics but he's been at it over 30 years and perfers to just grow from good clone stock these days. I'm sort of old school and am looking for landrace strains to grow from seed. I germinated some of the BC Korean Skunks about a month ago and they are turning into some serious looking beings. I'm hoping to get a male out of the bunch so I can keep these going.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge/experience.
:thumbsup:

[funkfingers]

Thanks for that info Funk! Can you tell me what soil I will wanna get/where to get it? Also, how much will I want for 2 or 3 plants? How big will I want to dig the holes? What supplies besides dirt and clones will I need? Wanna help? ;) lol

:dance:
j


Well lot's of things come into play when choosing a soil.. Do you want to have control over how the plant feeds, or set-up a "super soil that's just add water?I would recommend adding polymer crystals to the soil so it can retain water better. So kinda confusing you want it to drain well and maintain internal moisture at the same time.
price range is another factor..on what dirt( or non- dirt)

size of holes, well how big you want the plants:D
amount of dirt is gonna depend on the size of the hole.. remember the plant needs about a gallon of dirt for every month it's gonna be alive.. so outdoor will use a lot more dirt at least 5-7 gallons per plant.

you'll need to rig up some kind of barrier to keep deer and vermin from the clones, some predator urine might not be a bad idea to keep away the animals.


happy to help good luck..

oh yeah lamp I've always gone with june 1st here just to be on the safe side, but I live above the city so snow at the end of may is common place.:rastasmoke:

[Dorje113]

.. so outdoor will use a lot more dirt at least 5-7 gallons per plant.

The more the better. 20-30+ gal/plant isn't too much.

[funkfingers]

totally the bigger the roots can get the better the yield, my buddies out west use 200 gallon smart pots outdoor.. Trees for sure.

[Justabloke]

Right now, I have the first hole half dug. It's about 4' wide and 2' deep. I'm looking at doing 4'x3' or 4'x4'.

I'd like them to grow to about 5' or 6'. I live in South Centeral Adams county on a bit of a hill. The first 8 inches is chucked full of clay and about 1' down starts REALLY hard soil. I don't know what it is but the pick barly wants to cut though it. If the roots grow beyond the dirt I'm adding, I doin't think they'll get much out of the soil that the ground is made of except contamination chemicals. I'm hoping living so close to the coal plant at 64nd and York (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=39.807168,-104.964087&spn=0.009297,0.022638&t=h&z=16)will mean a local increase in CO2. I live real close to a mile away from it.

I'm by no means a grower so what I want are good healthy high producing plants but I'm guessing that's the want of anyone who starts a plant.

I'm looking at buying soil over the next few days and getting em in soon and hoping to harvest sometime in Sept.

Speaking of harvest, how big do harvests like mine will be usually run?

Right, I'm back off to sleep.

j

[Justabloke]

Oh also I'd like a Sativa dominate strain. ;) Indicas make me toooooooo lazy.

Tanks
j

[funkfingers]

the SaGe might be a good option then 70 day flower, diesel will finish as well.. they should sometime in oct out here, maybe earlier if you put in flower 1st then trans outside sometime in the beginning of june..:rastasmoke: