My SCROG brings all the boys to the yard? Blue Widow/T5/E&F

[bertoxxulous]

Well everybody, its been just about a year since I've grown last but I've made some modifications to my setup, I think its working out well. I'm still not using R/O water because the filter I finally got the money to purchase is on back-order for another month. My tap water sits at least 300PPM at any point in time so I've been using half strength nutes. My last grow I finished never going over 3/4 strength and I could probably bump it up here in another week which I will probably do.

I use:
-Ionic Grow
-Ionic Bloom
-Liquid Karma
-Hygrozyme
-Ionic Boost

This time around, I'm growing just one Blue Widow in a SCROG format with an Ebb & Flow setup under T5's that would be better suited for SOG but I like to be different and make things more difficult for myself. I topped this plant at 10" and it worked out quite well so far. This gal has really picked up since I've flopped to 12/12 so we should see some pretty big growth I hope before it starts developing teh buds. Here is teh pictures!
[attachment=o239618] [attachment=o239619] [attachment=o239620]

[raizla]

The plant looks great! What exactly is a blue widow again?
Also, since you've got the same type of light I do, are you using the 3000k bulbs for flowering and 6500k for vegging?

I'm trying to decide whether you've got a 2nd T5 light in there, or if that's a reflection of the first one on the side...

[bertoxxulous]

This is blue widow (fem) from dinafem. This is a F1 cross between white widow and blueberry. This plant was grown from seed. Yes there is a second 20k lumin ballast at a 45 degree angle. My main ballast is 40k lumin :thumbsup:

[raizla]

Got it. That sounds like an awesome cross smell-wise. I can just image that blueberry smell crossed with the white widows I'm growing now. mmmmmmm

So don't you think both sets of lights are a bit much for just 1 plant? That's 60k lumens! Seems like you could have 2-3 plants in there pretty easily and up your production.

Also, I read your last grow log. I'm super happy that you did so well using T5's as that's what I'm using too. I plan on switching to the 3000k bulbs as soon as I start flower. Looking at your last grow log, I don't see any reason for you to go with an HPS. Your grow was great!

Oh, and what was the final weight from your last grow?

[PhatJay]

Nice looking setup you got there :thumbsup: Going to enjoy watching this one.

[Buffalo Soldier]

Groovy set up man.......she's gonna do u right!!:S5:

[EvilCartman]

Nice!
I just finished a BW from Dinafem, straight-up, in dirt. Looking forward to seeing how she works out for ya! I bet she'll do great in a ScrOG. :thumbsup:

[bertoxxulous]

@raizla - Yea man I just love T5's...especially for SCROG, you can get the lights right down on top of the plants without fear of burning them up and its nice and evenly uniform because of the size of the ballast...I just love it and wouldn't have it any other way. Honestly I would have more lumins in there if I could. I don't keep a scale around here but I'd say I got at around 9 ounces. I filled up 9 perservative jars anyways lol.

The reason I'm only growing one plant was due to bad planning, however its been alot easier to manage than growing three I must admit....the biggest hassle is the fact I'm using a 40gal reservoir and big ass flood table that is definately overkill for 1 plant but I only use about 25gals every refill and prolly add about 3 gals of tap a week to keep it topped off so the pump doesn't start cavitating, cause I've got it right on the nats ass. I'm lazy and will only clean that flood table if I start seeing PH problems...its mostly liquid karma and I've found that it doesn't seem to affect at all as long as you do the water every week. I clean out the reservoir/pump/air stones/tubing every 2 weeks. As you can see I vegged this plant longer than I normally would have if I was growing two but the way this grew, the lower branchs caught up with the main stem before I actually topped it at 10" which I thought was interesting. From what I read, this plant could double in size once swapped to 12/12 and I will say that the growing has definately picked up since I've gone 12/12, I have to push limbs under every day now its growing so fast. I'm still pissed I can't use RO water though, there is so much crap in tap water I'm sure its hampering my girl in some way.

@everyone - Thanks for the complements guys! I hope I can do this right so we can see what this setup can achieve...so far things are going great but I don't want to jinx myself lol :wtf:

[bertoxxulous]

Well finished up the second week of flowering and I'm getting what looks to be a nitrogen def. possibly starting with the lowest set of fan leaves and already affecting some of the smaller leaves near the base of the plant. I'm not quite sure what to do right now or I have at least not made my mind up on any form of action other than monitoring PH and PPM.

Here are this weeks set of pics.
[attachment=o240102] [attachment=o240103]

[bertoxxulous]

Well, today is the day after the end of the 3rd week of flowering. I've had some more leaves drop...as you can see in the comming pictures I still have some older fan leaves and such dying off. Much of it so far seems to be affecting just main stalk fan leaves and some smaller leaves near the bottom that never quite fully developed. Buds have definately gotten some more form. I fear that I have a deficiency going, so I actually went ahead and did my best to clean the flood table without removing it of course, kind of a mess in the end but oh well. I think I'll need a couple more days to tell if I'm for sure having a deficiency or if this is fairly normal. Again this is my second hopefully sucessful grow so I don't know ya know.

[attachment=o240551] [attachment=o240552]

[bertoxxulous]

Nice!
I just finished a BW from Dinafem, straight-up, in dirt. Looking forward to seeing how she works out for ya! I bet she'll do great in a ScrOG. :thumbsup:

Man I checked out your GL...that was an awsome grow! I sure hope I can make it to the end and wind up with some tasty buds like yours looks. You'll have to tell me about how tastes, effectiveness, etc. when you get a chance!

[EvilCartman]

I think I'll need a couple more days to tell if I'm for sure having a deficiency or if this is fairly normal. Again this is my second hopefully sucessful grow so I don't know ya know.

I think she looks fine. If you're just losing a little greenery at the bottom, that's pretty normal. The tops look nice, green and healthy...I'd say you're on the way to a nice harvest! :thumbsup: Keep it up!


Man I checked out your GL...that was an awsome grow! You'll have to tell me about how tastes, effectiveness, etc. when you get a chance!

Thanks, kind of you to say so. I'll post up a "smoke report" on mine in a bit. She'll come out of the curing jar in just a couple more days. :)

[bertoxxulous]

The half way point in my grow, week 4, has come and gone yesterday. I did my weekly drain and clean of my reservoir and added a 1" extension to my drain tube so I'm flooding about an inch deeper now. The dying off of leaves has progressed and now I'm getting what seems to be tip burn but the way the leaves are dying seems to be almost like a calcium deficiency along with nitrogen deficiency? I'm not quite sure and I've got no idea what to do. I'm still running at 1/2 strength Ionic Bloom (2tsp./gal) and full strength Liquid Karma (2tsp./gal), along with 1/2 strength Ionic Boost (0.5tsp./gal). I started this week at around [email protected]. My tap water is still sitting right about 300PPM. My first set of pics:
[attachment=o241046] [attachment=o241047] [attachment=o241048]

[bertoxxulous]

My post regarding my plant trouble issues in the forum here:
1/2 through bloom, tip burn possible calc. def. (http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-problems/183168-1-2-through-bloom-tip-burn-possible-calc-def.html#post2084790)

[bertoxxulous]

Quite a bit of fan leaf loss, hope it holds out for another 3 weeks, no suggestins on my plant troubles post.

Week 5 Pics:
[attachment=o241590] [attachment=o241591] [attachment=o241592]

[StickyBuds1987]

very nice looking acrog man you are gonna have some fire fire buds:thumbsup::jointsmile:

[jtsik330]

It looks like your creeping on week 5 right now so i believe the yellowing is okay at this point. Just keep the feeding regimen as it is or give it just a tad bit more of some grow nutes just for the lil bit more N. I don't like to give anything else but bloom nutes after week 3 because N can make the plant herm if given alot. Your girl looks great just trim off the dead leaves once they dry up so make the drying/harvesting period alittle earlier.

[bertoxxulous]

@StickyBuds1987 - Hey thanks alot man!

@jtsik330 - Thanks for the info man, I think I've finally gotten comfortable with the yellowing, it stopped progressing as much as when it first showed up and now I believe I was just over-reacting to a plant I'm just not used to yet, and I'm still a newbie grower anyways haha.

Before I start these pics I'm actually thinking about starting the flush here this coming Sunday (4/18/2010) and flushing for approx. 10 days which would push me out right at the projected flowering time that I found listed for this plant. However, I will be checking out the trichomes with a microscope this weekend to see how they are looking to get an idea if I really do want to start flushing or not.

Here are Week 6 pics:

[attachment=o242111] [attachment=o242112] [attachment=o242113]

[EvilCartman]

I'm actually thinking about starting the flush here this coming Sunday (4/18/2010) and flushing for approx. 10 days which would push me out right at the projected flowering time that I found listed for this plant. However, I will be checking out the trichomes with a microscope this weekend to see how they are looking to get an idea if I really do want to start flushing or not.


Lookin' sweet! :thumbsup: ...and I gotta say, your housekeeping is spotless. Gotta be one of the the *cleanest* trays I've ever seen. :cool:

I'm lookin' forward to seeing what the trichs tell you. I like how ya'll are using both V&F tubes in the light fixture. It'll be interesting to me to see how the hydro and fluorescents effect the flowering schedule. :detective1: I chopped @ 66 days, in soil/HID.

Have you taken any cuts? I'm thinkin' your going to like the smoke. :)


You'll have to tell me about how tastes, effectiveness, etc. when you get a chance!

Think White Widow, but with a nice subtle berry flavor on the exhale. With a 30 day cure, the smoke is *very* smooth. At less than 10% amber, the effects are just dandy. A couple draws sets the mind adrift. :jointsmile:

Next run I'll probably go for a lil' more amber, for my personal use, but I'm very pleased with it as is. As far as an anti-anxiety/appetite-stimulating med, without the heavy stone, she's very good at <10%.

Keep it up, your in the home-stretch!

[bertoxxulous]

1. Lookin' sweet! :thumbsup: ...and I gotta say, your housekeeping is spotless. Gotta be one of the the *cleanest* trays I've ever seen. :cool: I'm lookin' forward to seeing what the trichs tell you. I like how ya'll are using both V&F tubes in the light fixture. It'll be interesting to me to see how the hydro and fluorescents effect the flowering schedule. :detective1: I chopped @ 66 days, in soil/HID.

2. Have you taken any cuts? I'm thinkin' your going to like the smoke. :)

3. Think White Widow, but with a nice subtle berry flavor on the exhale. With a 30 day cure, the smoke is *very* smooth. At less than 10% amber, the effects are just dandy. A couple draws sets the mind adrift. :jointsmile:

Next run I'll probably go for a lil' more amber, for my personal use, but I'm very pleased with it as is. As far as an anti-anxiety/appetite-stimulating med, without the heavy stone, she's very good at <10%.

Keep it up, your in the home-stretch!

1. Are you being sarcastic about my tray??? I can't tell....I'm too stoned right now..lol

2. No. I would have liked too because I need more experience with cloning but I do not grow in the summer time because I can't keep the room cool enough without risking that beautiful aroma escaping my dwelling.

3. Man you've got me excited now! I've been smoking my last grow for nearly a year now so I'm ready for some variety (although its still good smoke...honestly I've never had the oppertunity to smoke high quality pot like this till that grow...used to be brick weed and sometimes alittle better quality but nothing like this). I'm glad you responded because I've been deliberating if flushing for 10 days starting this coming sunday (4/18/10) was going to be too early, putting me at 56 days. If you were at ~10% amber at 66 days then I may want to do one more week of feeding and flush alittle later (I'll have to figure it out). I guess I'll find out when I look at the trichs though. I got this nifty little gadget that I can take pictures of the trichs up close if I'm not shaking to much so I'll try and get those up this weekend mabye.

Peace.

[Shovelhandle]

You're doing a great job with your grow and the log. The yellowing is very common when these plants start bloom cycle, especially indoor grows. Just keep the dead leaves picked up. :thumbsup:

[bertoxxulous]

You're doing a great job with your grow and the log. The yellowing is very common when these plants start bloom cycle, especially indoor grows. Just keep the dead leaves picked up. :thumbsup:

Thanks Shovel, I appreciate it!

As promised, Trichome shots with my nifty little toy.

[attachment=o242440] [attachment=o242441] [attachment=o242442] [attachment=o242443]

As you can see, there really isn't any amber that stuck out to me, it looks mostly cloudy, with some clear ones in there, maybe even 50/50 clear/cloudy. I'm going to go ahead and feed this baby for at least another week now, unless anyones got some reasonable objections to do otherwise. I'm beginning to think my flowering could be streched out alittle longer than normal because I let her veg for longer than normal to get all the way up to my trellis. I'm wanting to go for 10-20% amber...how long do you guys think I should flush her once I get to that point? (My last grow I jumped the gun and only flushed for like a couple days which didn't practically do anything). This time I was thinking of flushing between 7-10 days.

[StickyBuds1987]

Thanks Shovel, I appreciate it!

As promised, Trichome shots with my nifty little toy.

[attachment=o242440] [attachment=o242441] [attachment=o242442] [attachment=o242443]

As you can see, there really isn't any amber that stuck out to me, it looks mostly cloudy, with some clear ones in there, maybe even 50/50 clear/cloudy. I'm going to go ahead and feed this baby for at least another week now, unless anyones got some reasonable objections to do otherwise. I'm beginning to think my flowering could be streched out alittle longer than normal because I let her veg for longer than normal to get all the way up to my trellis. I'm wanting to go for 10-20% amber...how long do you guys think I should flush her once I get to that point? (My last grow I jumped the gun and only flushed for like a couple days which didn't practically do anything). This time I was thinking of flushing between 7-10 days.

damn man those are gonna be some frostie sticky buds lol nice job man i want to see the cured and dry buds after its all done with :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[bertoxxulous]

damn man those are gonna be some frostie sticky buds lol nice job man i want to see the cured and dry buds after its all done with :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Thanks! Neither can I lol

I finally, finally, finally.........got my R/O filter on Friday and Monday (04/19/10) filled my reservoir for the first time with some beautiful R/O water! Previously, with my tap water, 300ml of Ionic Bloom, 300ml of Liquid Karma, and 73ml of Ionic Boost was sitting at [email protected]. Now, with 500ml Bloom, 300ml LK, and 73ml of Boost I'm at 800ppm without all the nasty shit that comes from my tap. Tap water is just shy of toxic chemicals in my honest opinion. So! I have doubts that using R/O this late in the game wasn't going to make a major difference but I know its definately worth it if I've got it and now I do.

My plan is to try to push it out 3 more weeks from yesterday so, Monday May 10th 2010. Of course thats all going to be dependant on the trichomes. I'll take some pictures tommorow and get them up for this week!:smokin:

[drudown11]

yeah man, putting it down with those T5's. I use a 5 light fixture t5 fixture to accompany my 250 Mh/HPS, but it looks like your plants are doing just fine with out one. Your gunna harvest all of those dank frosy buds at 1/3 the power consumption and heat than a HID. Very good job. :)\\:thumbsup:

[subzero]

Hi Bert,
it's been a while dude, looking good.
Gonna need calmag now your on RO.
Also your ph is gonna be way different, are you using ionic soft water this time?
I'll keep an eye on this thread
good to see you back

Subzero

[bertoxxulous]

yeah man, putting it down with those T5's. I use a 5 light fixture t5 fixture to accompany my 250 Mh/HPS, but it looks like your plants are doing just fine with out one. Your gunna harvest all of those dank frosy buds at 1/3 the power consumption and heat than a HID. Very good job. :)\\:thumbsup:

Thanks alot Drudown11, I really love the T5's for that very reason. Nothing but a good experience so far, and my last grow with the same ballast was fairly successful as well in my opinion. For the actual cost of the lights and the ballast, power consumption, and especially heat, (which I have a particular issue with because the room I'm growing in has no ventilation whatsoever, shy of just opening up the door to the room) its been working out well for me.

Here are my week 7 pics taken yesterday...Gaining a small amount of weight in my estimation...

[attachment=o242850] [attachment=o242851] [attachment=o242852]

[bertoxxulous]

Hi Bert,
it's been a while dude, looking good.
Gonna need calmag now your on RO.
Also your ph is gonna be way different, are you using ionic soft water this time?
I'll keep an eye on this thread
good to see you back

Subzero

Holy Shit man! I thought you might have been gone for good its awsome to see you check in man! Hows that George Orwell nightmare going on over on the other side of the pond? Police state here is ramping up at a frenzy =\

Yea I didn't actually use CalMag because I figured I was prolly only going to be feeding it this week and next week and you had mentioned that Ionic had all the nutrients that MJ needed so went 500ml Ionic Bloom (soft water), 300ml Liquid Karma, and 73ml Ionic Boost which put me right at around [email protected]. However, I was planning on my next grow to use 50/50 Ionic Grow/CalMag through Veg and the like 80/20 Ionic Bloom/CalMag during Flowering...does that sound good?

About the PH, after adding my nutrients this time and tested it was 5.9PH without even adding any up or down, I was pretty suprised. Its raised to 6.0 but I checked the PH in my flood table and it was sitting around 5.4 so I figured leaving it at 6.0 in the reservoir would be fine.

Also, I personally believe I can see that the plant is responding to this R/O water, I just wish I could have started using it from the get-go you know.

Awsome to hear from you again Sub, Glad you getting to check out this grow, I even got mah seeds from over in your direction too....very glad I did, no mystery seeds this time around.

[Bongojaz]

o.k. bert, here goes. i don't know if anyone has told you, or if you know or not. you've made a huge mistake in your scrog, which is going to cost you "huge" in the yield department! although your grow is very, very nice. it could be 2wice as nice! when doing a scrog, you need to veg your plant(s) into the screen before you put the plant(s) under the screen. what you want to do is pull the growth tips back under the screen (in veg) and position them to empty parts of the screen, filling it up. once it's around 80% filled, you flip it to flower. fill the rest of the screen in flower and you'll have so much bud you won't know what to do with it! you also want to cut off all of the foliage beneath the screen as it fills, since it won't be getting any light anyways once it fills up. here's a cut and paste job that explains scrogs better than i can. greenmonster is "the" scrog master!!!

Hi guys, I have seen some interest in the scrog here and thought I would post this info I came up with to perhaps help a few new growers out. This method is worth a try guys. I can guarentee a larger harvest off a single plant. Enjoy, gm714



The Scrog Method

So, you want to tackle a scrog do ya? Excellent choice! Scrog or SCREEN OF GREEN is one of the most productive and easiest ways to grow indoors. Now lets not get this confused with the Sea of green method. SOG involves no training nor does it have one item a scrog always has. A screen. Scrog has been around for many years. Before HID's were introduces many used floro's with this method with good success.
Now lets talk about the scrog for a little bit here. What is a scrog? What is screen of green? Well, it is just that. A screen is the main character of scrog. It is usually made of wire or something sturdy enough to hold back the growing canopy. This wire should have some holes in it about 2x2inches in size so that the plant mater can easily grow up through the wire and be supported by it. The wire is secured between the grow medium and the lamp at a distance determined by the size of your lamp. We will get into that later. The plants grow through the screen about 3-4 inches and then are pulled back under and spread out where YOU want them to grow. Its as easy as that folks. Its a great way to grow. Let me put it this way. I have tried untrained methods like SOG and have never come close to the yeild I get with a scrog. Okay, sounds easy right? So, what are you waiting for?

Getting Started
This is the hard part. Getting started. Damned if it ain't for me man. I spend hours thinkin of shit before I do it. lol Anyway, this isnt rocket science. If you've already got an area where you established plants growing you are halfway there.

The SCREEN
Remember at least 2x2inch squares. You can use chicken wire as well or even some tightly strug rope but I would suggest wire. You need something strong to support the buds and hold back the canopy growth. The screen needs to be cut to size. The size of the screen is determined by the size of your lamp. Remember that to get the good bud formation you want from 50 watts per square foot so your screen size should not exceed that. Check the examples below.

150hps screen size 1.75ft x 1.75ft

250hps screen size 2.25ft x 2.25ft

400hps screen size 2.91ft x 2.75ft

600hps screen size 3.45ft x 3.45ft

1000hps screen size 4.4ft x 4.5ft

If your screen exceeds the 50wpsf thing alittle. Thats perfectly okay. Just dont overdoit. lol Now once you've determined the size of your screen and cut it to size. Situate it over your grow area and secure it into place. Just a few screws will hold it in place. Your mounting a screen. Not a twenty pound wall painting. lol.....Wait just a minute! You need to figure out where to set the screen. First, a few questions to ask. Is your lamp air cooled and what size is your lamp? These two questions determine how close you can get to your canopy. This is very important stuff. The closer you get the better off you are. If you do not have air cooled lamps then a simple fan blowing between the canopy and the the lamp should do the trick. Okay, now lets set that screen. Here's some examples of screen settings for hps's. These are not exact settings. They are just a baseline idea. If you can get your lamp closer. Good for you. If you can't. Thats okay too. Dont worry. If you've got the right watts per footage they will produce.

150hps 10-12 inches
250hps 12-15 inches
400hps 16-20 inches
600hps 20+
1000hps 24+

Your Plants
How Many Will I Need Under The Screen? Usually the rule is one plant per square foot of screen. I go with as few plants as I can whenever possible. One side of my flower chamber is almost 3x3ft. Thats almost 9 sqft. I only have 6 plants under there and the screens are pretty full. So, the rule does not always need to be followed. Having less plants can be a good thing if they happen to discover your illegal activity..lol.....Remember with fewer plants you will have to veg a bit longer but be patient and hang in there. Its well worth the wait.

Spacing Lets talk about the spacing between the plant medium and the screen. This space will need to be large enough to allow you room to manipulate your plants during the training phase. I usually use around 8 inches. Some people use more/less. Eight seems to be just enough for me but when working in a 3x3ft space it is still a tight space for a big guy. lol.....

What Is The Best Strain To Grow In A Scrog? Now lets talk about your plants alittle bit. What kind should you be growing in a scrog you ask? Hmmmmm. Well, any kind your heart desires my friend. That's right. Most any plant strain can be grown without much difficulty using a scrog. The secret is in the screen. Some strains require more training than others but that is the only difference. Heavy yeild indica's are excellent scrog candidates but the unruley sativa can really shine with proper training and timing.

Hydro or Soil?

So, how are you going to do this scrog? Is it going to bubble, flow or just sit there? Here's some things you may consider before your plants get tangled up in the screen.

Hydro: No real problem here. I prefer to scrog with a bubbler system over soil anyday. The problem lies in the flush. I explain below.
Soil: Soil grows and scrogs are a wonderful thing. Orgainc buds rule. One problem I ran into when scroging with soil was the flushing of the medium at the end of the grow. Well, with the plants tangled in the screen. One can not just transport to the sink and flush. My soil buckets drain into catch pans. Then I have to drain the catch pans. Takes a while but it works. Hydro is much easier though.

Okay man, you just did something that will almost double your yeild in the next sixty days. So, how do you feel about that? The screen is set. Now its time to move on to other things. Lets take a look at whats going to happen when these babies start to grow through the screen.

Managing the Scrog Grow
You have done some things that are a little out of the ordinary from your usual grow regiem. Things look a little different. A wire screen has invaded your grow space and it looks weird in there. Maybe you even have a few inches growth through the screen. What in the fuck am I gonna do now? lol.......Be cool man. Here's where the real fun begins and were the beauty of scrog growing starts.

Vegging: Here is where alot of people make mistakes. They get in a fired up hurry and get confused somehow. Flip their shit over to 12/12 way to soon and wonder why their screen never filled up. At that point the screen is nothing more than a support system for the plant. Normally one would veg a plant till the screen is 70-80 percent full before switching over to the flowering cycle. Having knowlege of how much your strain stretches is helpful when determining when to switch to flowering. For example: If one had a very stretchy sativa. You would want to start flowering her with much less of the screen filled. Just the opposite for a nice stunted indica. Timing has alot to do with scrog. We go over that soon.

Pulling It Back Through: Okay, so you've got some growth through the screen. Should have about 3-4 inches aye? Don't be a pussy here. lol....... If it breaks. I'll explain what to do later. Reach under the screen and pull that branch back under the screen and place it where you want it to be. Even if it takes tying it in place with the plastic twisty ties. Now I could really get technical and shit and start with the be sure there is an internode in each hole of the screen but it really doesnt matter man. Just get the growth under the screen first. In the next few weeks. You will see were to guide the new growth to best suit your needs.

Training: This can seem brutal to some. lol........ Scrog is not natural growth for the cannabis plant. I am sure of that. It must stress the shit out of them the whole cycle of life. Imagine taking a plant that usually grows anywhere from 3-12 feet and making it grow in a space no larger than 2 foot. Training begings in the pulling it back through section. Try to situate your main branches towards the barest parts of your screen. They will branch out the most and usually be the largest bud in the bunch. Use some kind of uniformity to your laying out of the branches. Crisscross/ zigzag whatever you use. Remember theres are going to be alot more branching when flowering kicks in high gear. So allow some room for that as well. Lesser buds that are now exposed to more light are then encouraged to grow upwards toward the screen through some leaf triming. An often debated subject but one I feel that is usefull in the scrog method.

Leaf Trimming: Now we need to chat about a touchy subject. Leaf triming. Like I said above. Scrog aint natural for cannabis. At least I dont think it is. Crammed in such a small area with all those leaves. Well, somethings gotta give and its not going to be bud. lol......Here's my rule on trimming. If the leaf is in the way of light for a bud site. Then it needs to be removed. Sometimes I tuck the leaf instead of removing it but most of the time I remove it. Now, when do I do this? Usually when I do a training session. Right afterwards. This trims away leaves and allows the new sites to get light. You will be surprised at how fast they will respond. Use good judgement when trimming. To much is not a good thing here.
Trimming continues into flowering ending during the later stages of flowering. I have found it not to be harmful at all to remove large fan leaves from buds during flowering. If they are blocking light to other bud sites near by. Its all about light penetration and bud sites in a scrog.

Timing: Timing is critical when it comes to a scrog grow. You must be paying attention to the progress of your grow in order to know when to induce flowering. Knowing what strain you are dealing with and what the growing characteristices of the plant are is very helpful when it comes to timing. I cant express the importance of having a good clone base for this purpose. As mentioned above if you induce flowering to early. You will have alot less of a yield. However, if one was to wait to long. The same can happen as well. An overcrowed canopy is just as much a mess. An out of control scrog is just that. A mess. Not something you want to deal with. Remember, the plants you start to flower are probably going to double in size. Stand back and get a visual picture of that in your head. Ask yourself some questions. If I start flowering now. Can I visualize how big they will get? Do I have enough veggative growth to start flowering? Do I have to much? Is it time? Time to start flowering?
Okay, so you've decided to start. Bravo! You are going to be amazed at the buds that come out of this grow. lol....... So, you have turned back the timer to 12/12 and it has been 4 days now. The growth from the stretch is starting to show. You get in there and pull all those new shoots back under your screen and put them where you want them to be. A few more days pass. More growth. Now the decision part comes into play. Just how far over the screen do you want your buds to be? If you stop training them early in the stretch. They will grow alittle above the screen (maybe 3-6inches depending on the strian). If you continue trianing them until they start to top out. They will grow only alittle more and most of the bud will form right in the screen. This technique is great for those stetchy sativa's. However when doing this method keep an eye out for mold and try to have as much air flow between the buds as possible. I have done it both ways and they are both awsome. It may take you a grow or two to get the timing down to where you want it but once you do. I am sure you will be pleased with the results.

Clones/Seed Grows: Here's an interesting topic that is sure to generate a few questions. I suggest clones for scrog growing over seed anyday of the year. Why? With clones you usually already know the characteristics of the plant and how it will perform. With seed its usually a guessing game as to which pheno your going to get unless they are true F1 seed. Plus with seed you dont know the sex yet. Ever tried untangling a male from a screen? Not something I would suggest doing. lol......Anyways, if you grow from seed. Be sure you have cloned the lot and know who your girls are first before going under the screen. This will save you alot of hassle later on.

Damage Control: If you move branches around and bend'em. Eventually somethings gonna give. Dont freakout. Its not the end of the world man.....lol... Cannabis is an amazing plant that can recover from alot of damage naturally without help from humans but in this case ya want to help if ya can. First aid for the injured cannabis plant is simple as pie man. Just support her wound and leave her alone. She will take care of it on her own. Unless you break her completely in half she can be saved usually. You can splint the wound or support it with some heavy gauge wire around the stem. If the break is not that bad and the branch can somewhat support itself. Leave it alone. In all cases. A knot will form at the break and most times an explosion of growth will happen above the damaged area. At times even new growth sometimes sprouts from the knuckle formed.

Flowering Cycle: Once a few trimmings are done and all is set in place flowering in a scrog is pretty uneventful. lol......Good time to start thinning out your undergrowth. I take clones around 20 days 12/12. If all that I need root. I clean out the undergrowth around day 35 12/12. Now if I need anymore clones. I can tak'em at this time. All the rest. Its butter makin time........Oh yeah.......churn dat budda........talk about a bonus for all your hard work.

Undergrowth: I mentioned it above but thought I should mention it again. The undergrowth is not that big of an issue here. Its an area that should be kept clear of dead leaves and you should also ensure that proper ventilation can get through the canopy via the undergrowth. If it cant. Then thin out some growth. This is an area that is dim and often humid. An open invitation for not so good things to come visiting aye? Some people have mentioned putting a light down there. Why? There's no need for a light down there. There are no buds to be harvested there. Just stems that support the canopy. If one were to put a light there they would just be adding to the congestion of leaves already growing. Not good. It is a good idea to clear out your undergrowth as your scrog takes shape and you have taken the clones that you need for the next grow. Trim all remaining sprouts left on the stems and any other undergrowth. Now lets not get to crazy here. Leave a little growth. Use some common sense here. Take out the sites you know are not going to make it to maturity. This will help the plant direct more energy towards the larger buds instead of wasting energy on the smaller ones.

Ventilation: Here's an issue that can not be overlooked. Once a scrog has been established it is a leafy sight to behold. Air circulation becomes critical as the buds begin to form and things start to get packed in the box. 24hr air movement is suggested 7 days a week. Better safe than sorry. Mold sucks.

Even Canopy: Maybe I should not put it in those words. Your canopy does not have to be perfectly even. Just close. The idea behind this is even light distribution. We are looking for a field of buds here not a forest like in SOG. If a dominate bud is allowed to overtake the canopy. It is defeating the purpose of the scrog. Tame that bitch. Bring her down to size with the rest. You want a somewhat even field of buds to deal with. Not a forest of untamed trees. The even canopy is easy to accomplish if you have been following the steps outlined above.
TrickyTip: Occasionally you will have a stretcher that decides that she wants more light than the rest of her friends. This often happens when the branches are competing for light. If one gets out of hand there is a simple solution to taming her back into the fold of the others and possibly giving her a burst of growth. Reach under the screen and find her stem. Half way up her stem start to pull her back through the canopy till she is even with the rest. Now where she is bent. Crush her at the bend with your fingers. Dont smash it in half. Just crush the stem so as it would not be able to support itself if it were to stand alone. As mentioned above. It will heal with vigor and you have solved your canopy problem.

The Beautiful and Productive SCROG

I cant express the joy I get from growing with this wonderful method. Through the years I have tried many ways but have never found a more productive growing method. I hope by passing on this information. Others will be more motivated to start their own scrog grow. If done correctly. I can almost gaurentee you will get more yield using the scrog than using the method you use right now. Considering the cost of electricity today. Getting the most out of your grow is the best way to go in my book. Good luck in all your goals and dreams. Give scrog a try. I doubt you will be disappointed. Later Greenmonster714

[subzero]

Anyways..... Bert add the calmag and any other additives first manufacturers instructions( low end in my experience) then bring your ppm up to target with your base nutes. Don't put your ph tester in pure ro water it will fuck it up. Ro water has no potential hydrogen, it takes on the ph of the impuries you are adding(sort of) ie nutes. Now, if you get defficencies next run with ro or ph is unstable, try adding back about 20 % waste water. I know, I know contamInate your precious ro.... But cannabis needs other micronutrients that are naturally in tap. Rather than trying to chase defficencies you put a little of everything back in the solution. Helps buffer the ro as well.
This is what my hydro guy suggested aparantly aquarium people do this as well. IMHO 300 ppm tap should be ok without ro filteration( you did say your tap was 300 didn't you?) but it's your pesos not mine. My ro unit is somewhere in the shed. I'm back to tap as I can't justify all the waste water and time farting about with it. I did a couple of ionic runs after your last thread. Totally underated stuff man, as good as anything else out there.
Read as much as you can about ro water, it can throw you a curve if you ain't careful.
Ttfn
Subzero

[demoreal]

This is the most efficient T5 grow I have ever seen. Nice job.

[demoreal]

I had the problem of my pump running dry when growing few plants in a large tray. The way I fixed it was by putting 2 liter coke bottles filled with yeast and sugar in the tray. That way when I water it takes less water to fill the tray. I also got the benefit of a slight increase in co2. Just an idea so you do not have to worry about the system running dry.
For you gallon milk jugs would work better. Even just with water if you do not like the co2 idea.

[bertoxxulous]

Bongojaz
o.k. bert, here goes. i don't know if anyone has told you, or if you know or not. you've made a huge mistake in your scrog, which is going to cost you "huge" in the yield department! although your grow is very, very nice. it could be 2wice as nice! when doing a scrog, you need to veg your plant(s) into the screen before you put the plant(s) under the screen. what you want to do is pull the growth tips back under the screen (in veg) and position them to empty parts of the screen, filling it up. once it's around 80% filled, you flip it to flower. fill the rest of the screen in flower and you'll have so much bud you won't know what to do with it! you also want to cut off all of the foliage beneath the screen as it fills, since it won't be getting any light anyways once it fills up. here's a cut and paste job that explains scrogs better than i can. greenmonster is "the" scrog master!!!


Yea, I'm not very happy with how it turned out with me not filling my trellis all the way up. The info on this breed says it doubles in size when flopped 12/12 and if you look at my first set of pictures, it looks like the plant is filling about 40% of the trellis when I changed to flowering. I think I'm getting an idea how I'm going to do my next grow based off how this girl turned out cause I'm prolly going to do this strain again.


subzero
Anyways..... Bert add the calmag and any other additives first manufacturers instructions( low end in my experience) then bring your ppm up to target with your base nutes. Don't put your ph tester in pure ro water it will fuck it up. Ro water has no potential hydrogen, it takes on the ph of the impuries you are adding(sort of) ie nutes. Now, if you get defficencies next run with ro or ph is unstable, try adding back about 20 % waste water. I know, I know contamInate your precious ro.... But cannabis needs other micronutrients that are naturally in tap. Rather than trying to chase defficencies you put a little of everything back in the solution. Helps buffer the ro as well.
This is what my hydro guy suggested aparantly aquarium people do this as well. IMHO 300 ppm tap should be ok without ro filteration( you did say your tap was 300 didn't you?) but it's your pesos not mine. My ro unit is somewhere in the shed. I'm back to tap as I can't justify all the waste water and time farting about with it. I did a couple of ionic runs after your last thread. Totally underated stuff man, as good as anything else out there.
Read as much as you can about ro water, it can throw you a curve if you ain't careful.
Ttfn
Subzero

Thanks for the valuable info yet again Sub. Speaking about my PH pen, it started doing something weird where when I first put it in the water it drops to like 5.5/5.4 and then comes back to what my PH should be, generally 5.9. It just started happening recently, maybe even since I started using R/O water....I can't remember. About tap, last time I was at the grow store the guys there said that everyone was complaining about there water recently, everyone was having problems and we are all off the same water facility.


demoreal
1) This is the most efficient T5 grow I have ever seen. Nice job.

2) I had the problem of my pump running dry when growing few plants in a large tray. The way I fixed it was by putting 2 liter coke bottles filled with yeast and sugar in the tray. That way when I water it takes less water to fill the tray. I also got the benefit of a slight increase in co2. Just an idea so you do not have to worry about the system running dry.
For you gallon milk jugs would work better. Even just with water if you do not like the co2 idea.

1) Thanks alot!
2) Man thats a great idea, I can't believe I didn't thing of something like that....that could really help on my next grow too because I was wanting to use my 20 gallon reservoir instead of the 40 gallon I'm using right now but still be able to use the same flood table.

[Bongojaz]

berto, you should be very happy, those babies look bomb to me!!!

[drudown11]

hehe I have the same light as you, just the 2x4 version.

I see that you have some red bulbs in your t5 fixture. Did you use that in veg too, or did you use all blue. I was thinking about picking up a couple of red bulbs and alternating them in the fixture like you did. I would assume that the plants would grow better with the complete spectrum of light.

[bertoxxulous]

Bongojaz:
berto, you should be very happy, those babies look bomb to me!!!

Hey Thanks! I just feel like I should be getting more yeild...I don't know...lol


drudown11:
hehe I have the same light as you, just the 2x4 version.

I see that you have some red bulbs in your t5 fixture. Did you use that in veg too, or did you use all blue. I was thinking about picking up a couple of red bulbs and alternating them in the fixture like you did. I would assume that the plants would grow better with the complete spectrum of light.

Thats exactly why I did the alternating red/blue...and yes I've used it that way since the plant has been in my tent (I've got a closet where I've got a small 180W blue light ballast while they are in seed/cloning stage).
__________________________________________________ ______
Alrighty, here are the Week 8 Pics. Week 8 officially ended on Teusday April 27th, 2010. These pictures were taken today. Also today, I cleaned both my flood table and reservoir and put in straight up R/O water. Why? Last night I checked my trichomes and I'm sitting right at or close to 10% amber. I prefer more of a head buzz instead of the couch lock so I'm not going for too much amber here. I do have a question for everybody, becuase I'm not honestly sure....how long should I be flushing this plant in hyrdo set up like this with R/O water? I know soil is what...2 weeks maybe? Little less?

[attachment=o243465] [attachment=o243466] [attachment=o243467] [attachment=o243468] [attachment=o243469]

[subzero]

Hey Bert, 7 - 10 days, more if you like.
But the ro will leach the nutrients better than tap.
Lookin' good.
Subzero

[raizla]

Hey man, the ladies look amazing. I think you did a great job. :thumbsup: I'm just a couple weeks behind you (on week 5 now) and growing with T5's as well. You've definitely got one of the best setups of the grow logs I've seen. I don't see any reason to change over to an HPS unless one was to go commercial. So overall you're happy with the E&F system? I'm thinking I'll play it safe with dirt again for my next grow.

[bertoxxulous]

subzero:
Hey Bert, 7 - 10 days, more if you like.
But the ro will leach the nutrients better than tap.
Lookin' good.
Subzero
Thanks alot for the info man, I flushed them for 7 days on the dot.


raizla
Hey man, the ladies look amazing. I think you did a great job. I'm just a couple weeks behind you (on week 5 now) and growing with T5's as well. You've definitely got one of the best setups of the grow logs I've seen. I don't see any reason to change over to an HPS unless one was to go commercial. So overall you're happy with the E&F system? I'm thinking I'll play it safe with dirt again for my next grow.
Good luck on your grow, mine totalled 9 weeks and 2 days. E&F, I like it ok...I think the downside is the flooding large tables like that, you have to use alot more water and such. However a previous poster mentioned putting stuff in the flood table to fill up space so you can end up using less water to water your plants with which would make it easier....although cleaning may be a pain in the ass I don't know...maybe next grow I'll try something out.

__________________________________________________ ________

Well here are the pics of the plant chopped up...I'm seriously thinking we may have as much or possibly more this time than my last grow with 3 plants...however those plants got lots of toxic offgasing abuse (btw everyone subzero was the one that came and rescued me there....I had tried what I thought was everything...and sub told me about the PVC offgassing and...although it was a total whore trying to get the tents off the shell I said fuck it because I was about to just give up on growing....but they turned around in days.) :hippy:

[attachment=o244177] [attachment=o244178] [attachment=o244179] [attachment=o244180]

[subzero]

Nice bert, next time you Harvest, if you aren't in a hurry to get more plants into your tank, cut the buds as they ripen rather than chop the lot. Those bottom buds (light green ones) will blue up like the colas and will probably double in size in an extra week or so.
Nice work man.
Subzero.

[StickyBuds1987]

very nice buds man goodjob:thumbsup::thumbsup:

[Bushka]

Great thread, how much did did you yield?

[raizla]

Great thread, how much did did you yield?

Here Here! I agree with Bushka. What is the yeild!?

[icbh707]

well its been almost a year but im back on here. thought id see what bert and sub were up to... still talking RO? its a tricky thing for sure. i like the add-back idea. i do that every run to keep my sub-culture going...in fact i only clean my res 1-2 times. i know bert likes a clean res though. ive been using a scrog for the last year and i love it...not chicken wire but the 5" nylon stuff. most of my friends are going scrog now too. looks like you started a wave of scrog across nor-cal bert. still have not tried the NFT sub, but id still like to. hope all is well.

[headshake]

Thanks! Neither can I lol

I finally, finally, finally.........got my R/O filter on Friday and Monday (04/19/10) filled my reservoir for the first time with some beautiful R/O water! Previously, with my tap water, 300ml of Ionic Bloom, 300ml of Liquid Karma, and 73ml of Ionic Boost was sitting at [email protected]. Now, with 500ml Bloom, 300ml LK, and 73ml of Boost I'm at 800ppm without all the nasty shit that comes from my tap. Tap water is just shy of toxic chemicals in my honest opinion. So! I have doubts that using R/O this late in the game wasn't going to make a major difference but I know its definately worth it if I've got it and now I do.

My plan is to try to push it out 3 more weeks from yesterday so, Monday May 10th 2010. Of course thats all going to be dependant on the trichomes. I'll take some pictures tommorow and get them up for this week!:smokin:

make sure to use some type of calcium/magnesium supplement with that RO water. it wasn't just nasty shit, but beneficial shit is well in that nasty ass tap water. (out of the tap, my water runs at 750ppm at like an 8.2-8.5pH!)

it won't be as important in this cycle since you are starting to finish up, but it's a MUST when using distilled and/or RO water!

http://boards.cannabis.com/hydroponics/155387-if-you-use-ro-distilled-water-you-need-calmag-plus.html


yeah man, putting it down with those T5's. I use a 5 light fixture t5 fixture to accompany my 250 Mh/HPS, but it looks like your plants are doing just fine with out one. Your gunna harvest all of those dank frosy buds at 1/3 the power consumption and heat than a HID. Very good job. :)\\:thumbsup:

sure it' will be at 1/3 the power and heat, but at what lack in production?


-shake