View Full Version : Saying Goodbye to the Pope
Torog
04-09-2005, 08:52 AM
Saying Goodbye to the Pope
By: Bill O'Reilly for BillOReilly.com
Thursday, Apr 07, 2005
It's too bad that the cable TV news coverage of the Pope's death has desensitized some Americans. The wall-to-wall commentary quickly became tiresome to many and millions tuned out. That's a shame because Pope John Paul's life is very much worth examining.
Here is a man who was undeniably saintly, a person who lived on this earth but operated in a spiritual zone few of us could ever contemplate. He considered worldly matters only in the context of what God "expected." Practical problem solving was not the Pope's priority. He was truly a faith-based man.
In the summer of 2003, I traveled to Rome to find out why the Pope had been so publicly detached from the American priest scandal. As a loyal Catholic, I was angry that the Pontiff had not been more proactive in punishing people like Cardinal Law who obviously had stonewalled the sexual abuse of minors by some clergy members. My public criticism of the Pope led the Catholic League to bitterly criticize me, so I wanted to be absolutely sure that my opinion of the Pope's conduct in that terrible matter was based on facts.
While in Rome, I learned a lot about the Pope from people who worked with him daily. They were fearful of speaking on the record because the Pope's advisors did not brook dissent. Any open criticism of John Paul was not tolerated by the Holy See.
Off the record, I found out that the Pope was deeply hurt by the sexual abuse situation, but was convinced by his advisors that it was an "American" problem. Thus, when he visited Canada in 2002, he declined a meeting with some sexual abuse victims. Apparently, the Pope's advisors felt the meeting would be too stressful for the ailing Pontiff.
For the last few years of his life, Pope John Paul was almost totally disengaged from temporal matters. Ravaged by disease, he prayed and meditated most of the time, leaving the day to day running of the Vatican to others. Those "others" were mostly conservative European clergymen who tended to view the USA as a self-absorbed, materialistic country out of touch with much of the world.
So, when the War on Terror erupted, the Vatican was sympathetic to America but tentative in condemning Islamic extremists. The Church did not want to exacerbate Catholic-Muslim tensions and avoided specific policy recommendations.
Then came the war in Iraq, which put the Holy See directly at odds with the Bush administration. Once again, the Pope did not really get directly involved, but this time, his Secretary of State, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, denounced the attack on Saddam, pointedly saying that the war was not a necessity.
Up until the end of his life, the Pope remained consistent in his belief that prayer would overcome evil. He saw the Nazis destroyed and the Soviet Union fall. He believed good would triumph over evil if good people prayed and stayed loyal to values of freedom, life and belief in God.
For some of us, that spiritual stance in the face of terror and sexual abuse was hard to take. Americans are a people of action, a problem solving bunch. We want results now--not on God's time.
But perhaps Pope John Paul was wise in his determination to put faith ahead of activism. I still believe the next Pope should be more of this earth, but I cannot fault the philosophy of John Paul; that all life is sacred and human beings have a God given right to live in freedom. The Pope prayed for that constantly. So should we all.
llamaman666
04-09-2005, 11:56 PM
yea....I don't wach that anymore now.......too bad o'realy's network, Fox News, started the desensitizing of Americans over 25 hours early, when they announced his death. And then by miracle......Fox News corrected it's self. But really. Who cares when it happened. He is gone, and an era has been lost. Lets stop looking at his death and look at his life and the future. Hopefully th Church can learn from him. Show some humility and agnoledge they did wrong doing in the past. That was his most important contribution to the church. Teaching humility.
Euphoric
04-10-2005, 12:37 AM
i only do this on very special occations. consider it an honor. *moons the pope's corpse*
I never knew the pope personally, so I cant really say anything about him.
Im making this comment on gods time - "Fuck you fundie christians."
llamaman666
04-10-2005, 08:13 PM
But can't we at least respect the man? No one can say he was a bad person. He strived to bring peace. Wanted to educate everyone. Accepted that the church was not perfect.
and I am not a "fundie christian"
I am liberal Jew (this is a style of Judaism, not a political stand-point)
Euphoric
04-11-2005, 01:17 AM
But can't we at least respect the man?
i personally find it difficult to respect someone representing a religon like that, its just not my bag of trickz
:cool:
jacquelyne
04-11-2005, 02:07 AM
my sister kissed his ring
SERIOUSLY
But can't we at least respect the man? No one can say he was a bad person. He strived to bring peace. Wanted to educate everyone. Accepted that the church was not perfect.
and I am not a "fundie christian"
I am liberal Jew (this is a style of Judaism, not a political stand-point)
That comment wasnt directed at you.
It was about the "We want results now--not on God's time." comment by Torog.
Believe me, I have nothing but respect for you, llamaman.
amsterdam
04-11-2005, 02:04 PM
the pope was a good man,dont waste petty personal opinions on him.you disagree with religon,terrific,mind ya buisness.
weirdo79
04-11-2005, 11:35 PM
That would be an excellent point Amsterdam if only religion would mind its own and stay out of politics :)
larghetto
04-12-2005, 01:01 AM
I don't really see why people think the pope is so great.
Think about it; he was just a good man and the only reason he was able to do the things he did was because he was given position (power). There are quite a few people in the world that would of done the same things he would have done if given the position, but you don't cry over them now, do you?
Just a good man with position, however, granted a good man.
Also, he caused a lot of problems, e.g. disagreeing with contraception, abortion e.t.c, he actaully had a lot of people that hated him esp. in places like africa, and the east where AIDs and other STD's are rife.
IanCurtisWishlist
04-12-2005, 06:34 AM
the pope was a good man. he was tolerant. he allowed priests to molest young boys, and im suprised he didn't even bless the abominable act.
Stedric
04-12-2005, 06:49 AM
That would be an excellent point Amsterdam if only religion would mind its own and stay out of politics :)
Took the words right out of my mouth, Weirdo.
I have nothing against the man, because as Epic said I never knew him personally. Disagree with his position on birth control and abortion but hey thats not to say he was a bad guy. I disagree with organized religion anyways.
Button Basher
04-12-2005, 09:08 AM
He blessed my mates pack of condoms! GO POPE!!
(no lie)
Torog
04-12-2005, 10:42 AM
the pope was a good man. he was tolerant. he allowed priests to molest young boys, and im suprised he didn't even bless the abominable act.
Howdy Ian,
This quote,which you apparently ignored,in order to make a sensational statement,addresses the issue:" Off the record, I found out that the Pope was deeply hurt by the sexual abuse situation, but was convinced by his advisors that it was an "American" problem. Thus, when he visited Canada in 2002, he declined a meeting with some sexual abuse victims. Apparently, the Pope's advisors felt the meeting would be too stressful for the ailing Pontiff. "
So..as you can see,the Pope was lied to...in America,where homosexual groups and sexual deviancy advocates, try to portray homosexuality and sex with children,as harmless..the priests are led to believe that they are doing little wrong..as acceptance of homosexuality grows in this country,the more convinced the priests are that they can git away with molesting young children. Such is the price one must pay..when a society begins advocating all manner of sexual deviancy. I believe,that the Church has been deeply infiltrated by satan,using the avenue of homosexuality and heterosexual child abuse..the gay priests,have a long and well established network of secrecy and protection,for it's 'members'..it is they-who deflected this issue away from the Pope..Like Bush..John Paul was given bad intel or denied accurate intel..so he was unable to properly address the issue.
Even as we speak,more and more American churches,are being encouraged by the radical gay activists,to allow gay priests into the churches..satan's plan to undermine the churches in this manner,is working very well..and is encouraged by the Left,the radical gay activists..and by those who wish to destroy all organized religion..it's a real shame..that it's the children paying the price for a 'progressive society'.
Even as we speak,more and more American churches,are being encouraged by the radical gay activists,to allow gay priests into the churches..satan's plan to undermine the churches in this manner,is working very well..and is encouraged by the Left,the radical gay activists..and by those who wish to destroy all organized religion..it's a real shame..that it's the children paying the price for a 'progressive society'.
Those 'Priests' are Paedophiles not Gay/Bi/Hetro etc.
Just plain ole 'sick, preying, evil, Paedophile Bastards'
'cuse my language.
And in trying to keep the good name of the church, they were moved around when complaints arose which just enabled them to start again - onto pastures new.
Paedophiles are clever, manipulating, scheming deviants who strive to get employment in areas where they'll have the most access to children. It's not surprising that some of them ended up in the clergy. They're in sports, schools, hospitals - everywhere...... :(
The Church are dealing with them in a different way now - thankfully.
But Torog, it's nothing to do with Homosexuality, A Person (consenting adults) being attracted to another of the same sex is homosexual - A Person being sexually attracted to a child (boy or girl) makes him/her a Paedophile. Plain and simple.
Torog
04-12-2005, 11:38 AM
Those 'Priests' are Paedophiles not Gay/Bi/Hetro etc.
Just plain ole 'sick, preying, evil, Paedophile Bastards'
'cuse my language.
And in trying to keep the good name of the church, they were moved around when complaints arose which just enabled them to start again - onto pastures new.
Paedophiles are clever, manipulating, scheming deviants who strive to get employment in areas where they'll have the most access to children. It's not surprising that some of them ended up in the clergy. They're in sports, schools, hospitals - everywhere...... :(
The Church are dealing with them in a different way now - thankfully.
But Torog, it's nothing to do with Homosexuality, A Person (consenting adults) being attracted to another of the same sex is homosexual - A Person being sexually attracted to a child (boy or girl) makes him/her a Paedophile. Plain and simple.
Howdy Lulu,
You know what,I believe that you're right..and that maybe I was wrong..instead of characterizing this as a problem related to radical gay activism,maybe I should have said that it's due to the paedophilic underground in the Church,because sexual abuse,in the Church,is both homosexual and heterosexual. And as you point out-paedophiles position themselves where they can gain access to children.
However,in their zeal to advance gay rights,radical gay activists are having a detrimental effect on our children,usurping parental authority and denying religious freedom..in order to advance tolerance for gays.
God destroyed Sodom and Gommorah,because of rampant sexual deviancy and God also said"A man shal not lay with another man,as he would his wife",given those 2 facts..do you believe that it's okay for there to be gay priests..even if they are celibate ?
I apologize,if I have offended you or anyone else..I'm simply trying to understand this issue.
Have a good one :)
However,in their zeal to advance gay rights,radical gay activists are having a detrimental effect on our children,usurping parental authority and denying religious freedom..in order to advance tolerance for gays.
I believe in Freedom of choice, as parents we should be more interested in what's happening in our schools. But that doesn't include telling children that homosexuality is wrong or an abomination in the eyes of God. More Tolerance is exactly what they should be learning. That people have a right to live and love as they choose, not conform to what others think, regardless of their own feelings.
God destroyed Sodom and Gommorah,because of rampant sexual deviancy and God also said"A man shal not lay with another man,as he would his wife"
The Bible quotes can be pulled out for pretty much any arguement - it's an old book, written by Men long dead, in a very different world from ours.
do you believe that it's okay for there to be gay priests..even if they are celibate ?
Absolutely, why not?
BTW, I haven't taken any offense, it's all just my opinion as is yours. :)
Lulu x
Torog
04-12-2005, 12:43 PM
Howdy Lulu,
You say:" BTW, I haven't taken any offense, it's all just my opinion as is yours. "
I say: fair enough..:) Besides..if I say much more about it..I'm certain to stick my foot in my mouth..and say something that I'll regret...lol.
I would also like to add..IMHO..that children need to be children..and not have to decide their sexual orientation,nor be encouraged to experiment sexually,between K-12..some schools in California,have encouraged kindergarden aged children,to experiment with masturbation and oral sex..as a way of discovering their sexuality. Children should be allowed to just be children..not forced to make decisions that an adult should make.
OOps..I may have just stuck my foot in my mouth..oh well..someone has to fight for the children. When I was growing up,there was no talk of sex from the teachers until we got to highschool..it was discussed in the Health class..and participation required a parent's signature..nowadays..any teacher with a sexual agenda,in any grade,especially in the liberal schools..will openly talk about sex..no matter the age of the children..and without informed consent. Children,are being placed in the middle of the fight between progressives and traditionalists..and that's just plain wrong..when it's an adult subject..that should be decided between adults..the progressives are trying to turn children against their parents ..they know that tactical confusion..will lead to a weak strategic response.
Dang..I've ranted yet again..sorry for that:)
Have a good one ...
I understand your worries and can empathise with how you feel.
However, [encouraging kindergarden children to to experiment with masturbation and oral sex], I think is a pure 'jackanory story' that I'd like to see proof of..... :rolleyes:
The schools here are discussing age-appropriate sex education from pretty early on in children's school life. Girls as young as 8/9yrs are beginning menstruation, so it's only common sense that they should be made aware of changes in their own body so it doesn't come as a complete shock - Remember the shower scene in Carrie :eek: (extreme example I know but you get the picture)
There's also many STAY SAFE programs, explaining to children what is acceptable and what isn't when dealing with others (especially adults). Maybe if we'd had more openness in the past about Sexuality, instead of the shame / guilt and nastiness that was heaped on us, alot of us would've been able to speak out about what was happening. But we couldn't because it was so TABOO and we didn't have the words or the understanding of what was being done to us to seek the help we so desperately needed.
Anyways, we could on like this all day - I see your point and agree to some extent. It's hard to know what's the right way to tackle all of this, let's just hope we don't damage them too much in the process. I'm saving for college funds - the shrink bills will probably cripple us :D jk
And Masterbation Lessons??????? How in God's name did we all manage without them LMAO ;)
Slan go foill
Lulu x
Torog
04-12-2005, 01:59 PM
Howdy Lulu,
Yer right..we could go on all day about this subject...lol. Thanx for trying to understand my point of view too:) Maybe I'm just too old-school...for these here 'modern' times...lol.
Have a good one ! :D
Euphoric
04-12-2005, 02:14 PM
Howdy Lulu,
Yer right..we could go on all day about this subject...lol. Thanx for trying to understand my point of view too:) Maybe I'm just too old-school...for these here 'modern' times...lol.
Have a good one ! :D
yes you are extinct
Torog
04-12-2005, 02:49 PM
yes you are extinct
Howdy Euphoric,
Well dang...I guess that confirms it then...lol..I'm just an old,gray-haired stoner..out of touch with these here modern times..in a world turned upside down by liberals...lol.
Have a good one...
F L E S H
04-12-2005, 02:50 PM
I would also like to add..IMHO..that children need to be children..and not have to decide their sexual orientation,nor be encouraged to experiment sexually,between K-12..some schools in California,have encouraged kindergarden aged children,to experiment with masturbation and oral sex..as a way of discovering their sexuality. Children should be allowed to just be children..not forced to make decisions that an adult should make.
That's absolutemly correct, but I think that should include all talk about religion too. When children are too young, they don't understand and just blindly believe what people tell them.
No sex talk before 14-15? Agreed, but also no God-talk before 14-15, when people are old enough to understand and after can make a conscious decision about their beliefs, rather than having them forced on them.
amsterdam
04-12-2005, 02:54 PM
being taught religon young can't even be put in the same ballpark as being taught masturbation when your real young.lol
weirdo79
04-12-2005, 02:59 PM
I wouldnt say your old school bout it Torog, you believe in what your conservative thought process tells you to think. No worries. The thing I take acception to only in your posts is the following
" God destroyed Sodom and Gommorah,because of rampant sexual deviancy and God also said"A man shal not lay with another man,as he would his wife",given those 2 facts..do you believe that it's okay for there to be gay priests..even if they are celibate ?"
I know i've told you on Marihemp and proved it empirically but the bible is not a history book , its a novel. There is zero neutral archeological evidence for 90% of the events. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed because of the opening of a new city that changed the trade route and slowly the cities became deserted as they were now off the trade route.
Also god said and DID alot of stuff that doesnt fit in or mesh with the rest of the bible, its filled with contradictory sentences meandering passages and outright falsehoods. Suffice to say it was written by a bunch of mysogynistic men and nothing more. Simply trying to enforce their will upon the "sheeple".
Dont forget according to the bible god killed 70,000 men women and children just because they had one non believer in their village....Also apparently when the ark was about to fall over and be broken a man stepped from the crowd to steady it.(helpful eh) Problem was god smote him for touching the ark....I guess he would have preferred it broke....It's a storybook nothing more. A rather bad one at that, full of vengeance pettiness and outright controlling behaviour(dont forget selling daughters who have been raped to the one who raped them....yeah thats a great rule god....)
Torog
04-12-2005, 03:04 PM
That's absolutemly correct, but I think that should include all talk about religion too. When children are too young, they don't understand and just blindly believe what people tell them.
No sex talk before 14-15? Agreed, but also no God-talk before 14-15, when people are old enough to understand and after can make a conscious decision about their beliefs, rather than having them forced on them.
Howdy FLESH,
Glad you agree about the sex talk part..but you're wrong,in my opinion,about children and the Bible..being children,they must obey their parents,if their parents wish to instill religious belief in children at an early age-that's the parent's choice-not the child's. Teaching children the Gospel of Christ..does make them better individuals with a clearly defined morality..not the pick and choose,infinite shades of morality..that you prefer . Children are becoming increasingly confused about themselves and what their roles and duties are in society-because of all of the amoral relativism coming from the Left.
Most 14 and 15 year old kids, still aren't capable of making good decisions,whether it's about sex or religion. Most kids,don't have a clue as to what's good for them,their hormones are raging,their bodies still growing and they don't have the maturity to make what should be adult decisions.
Have a good one ...
amsterdam
04-12-2005, 03:07 PM
that's why my kids are gonna go to private school.
F L E S H
04-12-2005, 03:38 PM
that's why my kids are gonna go to private school.
THat's the best thing you could do for them.
Teaching children the Gospel of Christ..does make them better individuals with a clearly defined morality..not the pick and choose,infinite shades of morality..that you prefer . Children are becoming increasingly confused about themselves and what their roles and duties are in society-because of all of the amoral relativism coming from the Left.
First of all, as I have told you a few times already, I'm not a Leftist, but whatever...
Knowing the Gospels does NOT automatically make you a better person. There's no infinite shades of gray in morality system, there's concern for other people, and there's a willingness to know what they think and why when they act. Is that so unreasonable?
And children are not confused because of the Left. Neither are they because of the Right. Do you know how involved children are in politics? Not very many. Do you know how many actually care? Judging from the voting numbers of young people, not very many. Fact is, the problems with today's youth do not stem from themselves, or all the 'evil influences' like sex, violence, etc, etc, but from the parents. I swear, I think humankind in North America has forgotten how to bring up children since the eighties. But that's another discussion for another topic...
amsterdam
04-12-2005, 03:47 PM
my kids are gonna learn about god and religon,they are gonna say the pledge ,learn about the declaration of independence,the founding fathers(good and bad),play dodgeball,and have their papers graded in RED ink.
F L E S H
04-12-2005, 04:37 PM
Yeah, I exaggerated when I said not teaching kids about religion, it was just to prove a point (which point? I forgot :) )
But see where labelling someone a liberal is harmful? When it comes to raising children, I think the old way is the best. Like Torog said, let kids be kids, let them be graded, punished, disciplined, even the occasional spanking.
amsterdam
04-12-2005, 04:44 PM
liberal isn't a bad word,it's alot more gentle than right wing extremist?i agree with the old way of teaching and will no doubt spank my child when they need it.no doubt about that.there are to many soft parents out there.i believe thats why we have so many annoying kids running around who have never been told no or punished.i used to dread my grandmother telling me to go out in the back yard and get a stick.OUCH!!!.it was always yes ma'am and no sir around my house.respect.
F L E S H
04-12-2005, 04:48 PM
liberal isn't a bad word,it's alot more gentle than right wing extremist?i agree with the old way of teaching and will no doubt spank my child when they need it.no doubt about that.there are to many soft parents out there.i believe thats why we have so many annoying kids running around who have never been told no or punished.i used to dread my grandmother telling me to go out in the back yard and get a stick.OUCH!!!.it was always yes ma'am and no sir around my house.respect.
Agreed. We need discipline, we need to teach respect.
amsterdam
04-12-2005, 04:52 PM
i see 5 year old's arguing with their parents all the time.i just shake my head.my wife's 6 year old cousin is the worst!!!!i would strangle that little shit.his parents are worthless.
What the hell is wrong with you, Torog? Just because someone is gay does not mean they like to fuck children.
amsterdam
04-12-2005, 06:32 PM
i agree.
Torog
04-12-2005, 07:47 PM
What the hell is wrong with you, Torog? Just because someone is gay does not mean they like to f*ck children.
Howdy Epic,
You're absolutely right..I didn't mean all gays,but the radical activists,who will use any means-to achieve their goal of normalizing that which I personally consider to be a sin,based on my Christian beliefs..could go that far..some of them,went to jail in Mass.,for their illegal promotion of homosexuality and fisting techniques. They directly usurped parental authority..hell..they pissed on it. Even the liberals were forced to react to the calls of angry parents.
Howdy Epic,
You're absolutely right..I didn't mean all gays,but the radical activists,who will use any means-to achieve their goal of normalizing that which I personally consider to be a sin,based on my Christian beliefs..could go that far..some of them,went to jail in Mass.,for their illegal promotion of homosexuality and fisting techniques. They directly usurped parental authority..hell..they pissed on it. Even the liberals were forced to react to the calls of angry parents.
Well im finally starting to get an idea of where you come from. I realize its not all bs. Some of it I dont agree with but eh, you're not a bad guy, just standing up for your beliefs and thats respectable.
Stedric
04-12-2005, 08:57 PM
Came into the conversation a little late but...Torog I don't think child molesters who molest males are gay I think a child molester is just a child molester.
Euphoric
04-13-2005, 05:40 AM
i refuse to talk about this subjekt as it is offensive to my pallette however i will leave this message here as a testament to this moment in history.
amsterdam
04-13-2005, 01:39 PM
he was a good man.
jacquelyne
04-14-2005, 02:53 AM
Gday Torog i know it has nothing to do with this thread.Do you like a song called Deck of cards by T.Texas Tyler ?
I can just see you liking that for some reason
maybe not lol
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