Canoeing/Clawed leaves

[Faddenator]

I thought canoe shaped leaves were caused by over watering, but if I try and let the soil dry out the plant starts to droop pretty bad- The clawing wasn't too bad at first but now they're upside down... :( Its only happening to the smaller leaves, perhaps its lack of light? It only recently became a problem though and the lighting situation has not changed.

Despite all this they are still flowering nicely.

What else can cause canoed/clawed leaves?

Thanks

[bigtopsfinn]

Can't really even take a guess without the bigger picture of the situation. Maybe someone more experienced with this can chime in... but even they can't help you without, you guessed it ;), the troubleshooting form :thumbsup:

And try to get some pics up, I don't really understand how they are clawing and canoeing at the same time, and upside down??? :jointsmile:

[Faddenator]

What is your experience level? beginner

Your Equipment:
.1) Type and wattage of lights. CFL's: 4x27W, 1x42W - Tube Flourescents: 2x32W (4ft)
.2) Distance from tops? CFLS are surrounding the plants, all within 1-2" of leaves/tops. Tube Flourescents are about 6 inches above all the plants.
.3) Reflector type? Flat White Standard Shoplight reflector on the tube flourecents, Space Blankets for reflectivity on the CFL's.
.4) Is there a consistent fresh air supply? It is in a box with an open top, in a large closet (5x10) with no door. So yes I believe there is fresh air.
.5) Do you have an exhaust fan and a circulation fan? Yes
.6) What are the bulb wattages, kelvin ratings, and schedule? CFL's: 4x27W (2700k), 1x42W (2700k)- Tube Flourescents: 2x32W (6500k) --- All light are on 12/12 light cycle

Your medium:
.7) Specific brand and type of soil, and anything you've added to it. Miracle Gro Potting mix cut with Scott's Premium potting soil and about 25% MG perlite
.8) Size of container. 10 liter (approximately 2.8 gallons)
.9) Did you use peat pucks (or similar) to root clones or germinate seedlings? No, I used the plastic bag method of germination, and simply planted them.

Your nutrients and water:
10) Source of water? (tap, bottled or filtered) What's it's ph before adjusting? Tap water, approx. 7.0 ph
11) Method of checking water ph. Test strips (not the best I know)
12) Method of adjusting water ph. No Ph adjustment used
13) Specific brand and N-P-K ratio for each bottle. List dosages (quantity per gallon) and current feeding schedule. Shultz Liquid Plant Food (10-15-10) and Miracle Gro All purpose plant food (not sure of NPK) Feeding every other watering (about 6 days) with a 25% strength solution of EACH brand (making a 50% strength solution)
14) How often are you watering between feedings, and how much per watering? watering once in between feedings, watering until run off starts (approximately half gallon per plant)
15) Any additives or tea's? (Superthrive, CalMag, molasses, Mother's Earth...) No additives
16) Are your ph levels stable, or do they fluctuate? Fluctuate slightly when feeding
17) What is your ingoing water's ph?7.0 ...your runoff ph? about 6.5
18) Do you foliar feed? If so, with what, how often, and at what time do you spray? No, only water feed

Your growroom:
19) Indoors or outdoors Indoors
20) What size of closet, room or hut? 5'x10' closet, in a 2'x4' box
21) What are the temps and humidity levels while lights are on? ...With lights off? Lights on: 75*F Low humidity - Lights off: 70-72*F Low humidity
22) Have you seen signs of insects in the growroom? No insect whatsoever.

Your strain:
23) What strain are you growing? (Indica dominate or Sativa dom?) Both
24) From seeds or clones? Seeds
25) Is this an autoflower strain? No

I was hoping I wouldnt have to do this again haha. oh well.
So what's the deal with the curling? I added a few pictures- note that the outer/larger fan leaves are fine. Thanks in advance everyone!

[bigtopsfinn]

Check the roots, that 10L might be too small for them at this point. This happened to me my first time. If you don't have bigger pots, you can 'cake stack' by filling in old pot with 1/3-1/2 way with fresh soil and then putting the plant back in, then filling in the sides.

Other than that, I can't see anything else which would be the problem. Maybe someone else?

[spacemyface]

Hey Faddenator, ever figure this out? I'm having the same trouble..

[Faddenator]

Hey Faddenator, ever figure this out? I'm having the same trouble..

I never completely figured it out, my roots looks like they have plenty of space. I did perform a hefty flush, and that helped a little, but not much. I don't think the leaves are ever going to straighten out.

However, growth is still happening at a good rate. She just starting developing trichs yesterday :) I guess I would try flushing if your roots aren't the problem. Maybe it will help yours more than it did mine.

[spacemyface]

Hmm, So are growing in a 2'x4' cab? I'm growing in a cabinet also, I'm wondering if its that there not getting enough O2?

[rebelbhoy]

One of my 8 plants are showing the same symptoms. And like yours is still producing trichs.

I would say it has produced the most trichs out of all my girls.
:rastasmoke:

[Rusty Trichome]

Stick your hand between the bulbs and the plant. If you can keep it there without getting too warm, temps are likely ok. You have a fan and fresh air on 'em?

Too much nutes, and wayyyyyoverwatering. Miracle Grow All Purpose has dosages listed for a two week period. (at least they used to when I was still using it) What is the specific MG nutrient you mention, and it's N-P-K, and it's listed schedule?

Cannabis grows best on a wet/dry cycle. If not letting the soil dry-out, you risk a myriad of problems. I'd wait till soil is dried-out a tad and carefully slip the rootball out of the container to check root growth. Should be nothing but healthy white roots.

Mixing products from different companies is not recommended. Different companies put different levels of each nutrients, micronutrients and heavy metals into their formula's. Very easy to overdose without going past the N-P-K limits. N-P-K could still be in range, but combining the different company's nutes can double or tripple-up on the micros and metals...Pick a winner and stick with it. :thumbsup: I recommend the easy to master Fox Farms trio pack. No company affiliation, I've just been using the stuff for quite a few years.

With my 3 gallon plants, I feed 'em 2 times a week. Monday and Thursday.
I mix the nutes half-strength, and give my 3 gallon flowering ladies about a quart of that solution each feeding. During the winter, if I do need to water inbetween, I'll add a quart of clean, properly ph'd water to last to next feeding day. During the summer months I often have to water daily. (I live in the desert)

[Faddenator]

Stick your hand between the bulbs and the plant. If you can keep it there without getting too warm, temps are likely ok. You have a fan and fresh air on 'em?

Too much nutes, and wayyyyyoverwatering. Miracle Grow All Purpose has dosages listed for a two week period. (at least they used to when I was still using it) What is the specific MG nutrient you mention, and it's N-P-K, and it's listed schedule?

Cannabis grows best on a wet/dry cycle. If not letting the soil dry-out, you risk a myriad of problems. I'd wait till soil is dried-out a tad and carefully slip the rootball out of the container to check root growth. Should be nothing but healthy white roots.

Mixing products from different companies is not recommended. Different companies put different levels of each nutrients, micronutrients and heavy metals into their formula's. Very easy to overdose without going past the N-P-K limits. N-P-K could still be in range, but combining the different company's nutes can double or tripple-up on the micros and metals...Pick a winner and stick with it. :thumbsup: I recommend the easy to master Fox Farms trio pack. No company affiliation, I've just been using the stuff for quite a few years.

With my 3 gallon plants, I feed 'em 2 times a week. Monday and Thursday.
I mix the nutes half-strength, and give my 3 gallon flowering ladies about a quart of that solution each feeding. During the winter, if I do need to water inbetween, I'll add a quart of clean, properly ph'd water to last to next feeding day. During the summer months I often have to water daily. (I live in the desert)

You sure about the over watering? I only water every three days, and I feed every other watering... I've never used over a 50% strength solution on THIS plant, I have on a couple other showing deficiencies...

I should also add that If I water less frequently than this the plant starts to droop heavily and all the fan leaf stems get 'rubbery' and just flop around.

The NPK of the MG is 15-20-15, the Schultz is 15-30-15. The general rule is a little more N for veg, and a little more P for flower, correct? So I guess I should stick with the schultz?

The roots have been checked recently and are white and healthy & not bound, In fact it looks like they have plenty of space. Like I said, I always cycle my waterings.

I've also already decided I'm not attempting another grow until I do some hefty equipment upgrades. My plan is for a 400W MH/HPS system using the Fox Farm Trio. A few steps up from MG and CFL's. Obviously I will make space renovations to accommodate for the new equipment. I will also be meticulously logging it.

So now that you're filled in, do you think its just the nute mixing thats doing it? Or you still think I'm over watering? Thanks as usual, Rusty :jointsmile:

[marcaka]

hey faddenator i am also using a 400W hps bulb in a growtent and am using the foxfarm trio.... i havent really gotten full force yet as I am having problems getting the leaves to not die and they are only about a month old.... i am using foxfarm soil for some and happy frog for others. how do you like the foxfarm trio?

[Faddenator]

hey faddenator i am also using a 400W hps bulb in a growtent and am using the foxfarm trio.... i havent really gotten full force yet as I am having problems getting the leaves to not die and they are only about a month old.... i am using foxfarm soil for some and happy frog for others. how do you like the foxfarm trio?

I actually haven't used them yet, but I'm insisting on it for my next grow. I based this decision on what I've heard on this forum. The only negative thing I've heard is that salts build up quickly in it - but this is easily remedied by regular (monthly) flushing.

If I'm not mistaken, Rusty swears by it - and if Rusty swears by it, it's gotta be good. :thumbsup: I bet you'll be happy you went with the FFT. :jointsmile:

[Rusty Trichome]

In my garden, in the winter, the soil retains water longer than during the summer. Tiz why I add perlite when cold/humid. If the lower root zone isn't being allowed to "air-out' a tad, you can develop problems with oversaturation. There is usually no need to completely saturate the soil, except during a flush. You mentioned half-gallon of water per 3 gallon (or so) pot, I believe, plus additional waterings of around 1/2 gallon. In my garden I go through about half that. Did you by chance add perlite to the potting soil before use? If so, perhaps you use more perlite than I do which would retain less moisture when watering.

Did you find-out the MG schedule for their nutrients? (is it a weekly schedule that's listed, or does it say to feed every other week?) I'd find-out for certain, and start following the instructions.

Exactly what are you using to determine ingoing/runoff ph?

How long have the been inside the pots they are in? Just curious, because it doesn't usually take long to fill-in the rootball. There shouldn't really be "plenty of room" in the pot. Should look fairly tightly-packed unless it's only been a week or so.

Even if you cut the dosages in half for the Scotts or the MG, they are still about twice as 'strong' as other 'cannabis' nutrients. Compare their numbers to 'standard' cannabis nutes.

Are you using superthrive or something similar?

Is there a fan on 'em, for proper ventilation of heat and providing fresh air?

[Faddenator]

In my garden, in the winter, the soil retains water longer than during the summer. Tiz why I add perlite when cold/humid. If the lower root zone isn't being allowed to "air-out' a tad, you can develop problems with oversaturation. There is usually no need to completely saturate the soil, except during a flush. You mentioned half-gallon of water per 3 gallon (or so) pot, I believe, plus additional waterings of around 1/2 gallon. In my garden I go through about half that. Did you by chance add perlite to the potting soil before use? If so, perhaps you use more perlite than I do which would retain less moisture when watering.

Did you find-out the MG schedule for their nutrients? (is it a weekly schedule that's listed, or does it say to feed every other week?) I'd find-out for certain, and start following the instructions.

Exactly what are you using to determine ingoing/runoff ph?

How long have the been inside the pots they are in? Just curious, because it doesn't usually take long to fill-in the rootball. There shouldn't really be "plenty of room" in the pot. Should look fairly tightly-packed unless it's only been a week or so.

Even if you cut the dosages in half for the Scotts or the MG, they are still about twice as 'strong' as other 'cannabis' nutrients. Compare their numbers to 'standard' cannabis nutes.

Are you using superthrive or something similar?

Is there a fan on 'em, for proper ventilation of heat and providing fresh air?

Ok I looked up the usage directions on scott's website. Apparently the feeding instruction are feed once every 7-14 days. so with a 50% solution on cannabis, it should be 7-14, correct? I guess this means i've been feeding about twice as much as I should.

The roots- They are fairly compact, but when I say they have plenty of room I mean they dont seem like they will get bound any time soon. They have been in the pots for about a month though. I'm not going to bother transplanting as this would mean another long drive to get soil/pots/etc. Plus this grow is going to be over fairly soon (1 week left on one plant, probably 3 on the other one)

I'm not sure about your climate but here, in the winter, it is EXTREMELY dry. my soil dried up from a flush in 4 days. plus there is about 25% perlite in my mix.

I used testing strips about 3 weeks ago for the Ph... they turned out almost exactly the same as when I tested before transplanting, and the time before that. So my ph seems to be pretty stable.

I also do not use additives, and I do have fans/ventilation.

I'm starting to think its a combination of over-feeding and under-lighting. I don't have the means to add any more light, but I suppose I'll try flushing again soon.

forgive me if this is hard to follow, I'm in a bit of a rush. Thanks :thumbsup:

[Rusty Trichome]

Ok I looked up the usage directions on scott's website. Apparently the feeding instruction are feed once every 7-14 days. so with a 50% solution on cannabis, it should be 7-14, correct? I guess this means i've been feeding about twice as much as I should.Likely, yes.


The roots- They are fairly compact, but when I say they have plenty of room I mean they dont seem like they will get bound any time soon. They have been in the pots for about a month though. I'm not going to bother transplanting as this would mean another long drive to get soil/pots/etc. Plus this grow is going to be over fairly soon (1 week left on one plant, probably 3 on the other one)Most potting soils have enough buffering capability for around 6-8 weeks. The lime or limestone dust they add to buffer the soil degrades over time and ph will start to swing.


I'm not sure about your climate but here, in the winter, it is EXTREMELY dry. my soil dried up from a flush in 4 days. plus there is about 25% perlite in my mix.Very cold here, and remarkabaly humid this winter. I use maybe 10 to 15% extra perlite, since my potting mix already has some. I add no extra perlite during the hot summer. (I live in the desert)


I used testing strips about 3 weeks ago for the Ph... they turned out almost exactly the same as when I tested before transplanting, and the time before that. So my ph seems to be pretty stable. What kind of test strips? For ingoing, clean water, they are fine. But with the strips, you are not able to properly ph the runoff water. Same thing with those freshwater aquarium test kits. The problem is that they show color-coded results. The tinting of runoff water skews results. Usually not even in the ballpark.



I'm starting to think its a combination of over-feeding and under-lighting. I don't have the means to add any more light, but I suppose I'll try flushing again soon. How do you determine when pot is dry enough to require more water? I agree with the lighting though. More is better. (up to a certain point, that is) I love my HPS.


forgive me if this is hard to follow, I'm in a bit of a rush. Thanks :thumbsup: Well there's your problem. No patience, lol. <kidding> <sort of>

[Faddenator]

What kind of test strips? For ingoing, clean water, they are fine. But with the strips, you are not able to properly ph the runoff water. Same thing with those freshwater aquarium test kits. The problem is that they show color-coded results. The tinting of runoff water skews results. Usually not even in the ballpark.

Damn... I should have thought of that. I'll definitely pick up a quality tester for my next grow (going to be a LOT better next time)



How do you determine when pot is dry enough to require more water? I agree with the lighting though. More is better. (up to a certain point, that is) I love my HPS.

I just check the soil with my finger, and if the top 3" are dry I check the weight of the pot to be sure there is no water lingering below that. I can hold the pot up easily with one hand when I water. And i CANT WAIT for my HPS. The government will be paying for it with a chunk of my tax return :thumbsup:


Well there's your problem. No patience, lol. <kidding> <sort of>

Haha, I had to hurry and go pick up a girlfriend of mine. The name's mary jane. :jointsmile::jointsmile:

[marcaka]

what is the "proper" way to flush?

[Rusty Trichome]

Once a month (on a watering day) I run 1.5 to 2 times the pot capacity with properly ph'd water, to release nutrient and salt build-up.

[redtails]

Now should the water be warm-lukewarm to help the salts dissolve or does it not matter too much?

[Rusty Trichome]

Not too hot, not too cold. Any drastic change in root temps can stress the roots.

[Faddenator]

Not too hot, not too cold. Any drastic change in root temps can stress the roots.

Can flushing too often (i.e. to correct over-feeding) cause the Ph buffers to dissolve? Just wondering because i flushed twice in two weeks, since I'm pretty close to harvest. I only flushed with 3 gallons each time however (which is my pot's capacity). I still got a good two gallons of runoff per flush though.

[marcaka]

Rusty.. its great how you answer questions, it def helps everyone understand a little more... i know i appreciate it.

a few more questions... sorry..... i just like your opinion
1. Maybe I am confused, but I use the Foxfarm trio and it says feed every other watering... my question is, what if I do not need that many days of feeding (feed on monday and they are good till wed., then i water wed/thurs and then dont feed again until sat) do you think I need watering in between my feedings or can I just use my FF if the plants arent needing fed as much right now?

2. what would you say is ideal ph for water? and soil? runoff?

3. If my ph were to be off; could I just add the ph up/down solution with my nutes if they need fed that day, or would you do it on a watering day, and can you add the ph up/down to the water on a watering day? I guess i am trying to ask can the ph up/down be added right with what you are feeding your ladies that day?

[Rusty Trichome]

Can flushing too often (i.e. to correct over-feeding) cause the Ph buffers to dissolve?
Yup. It's a gradual process that all of a sudden stops working.


Just wondering because i flushed twice in two weeks, since I'm pretty close to harvest. I only flushed with 3 gallons each time however (which is my pot's capacity). I still got a good two gallons of runoff per flush though. Just be careful of oversaturating the soil. Takes a while for sautrated soil to dry enough for the next feeding/watering. Can throw-off your schedules, stressing the plants and the grower.


Rusty.. its great how you answer questions, it def helps everyone understand a little more... i know i appreciate it. Flattery will get you everywhere. Glad to hear my rants don't go unnoticed, lol. :thumbsup: (thanks for the kind words)


a few more questions... sorry..... i just like your opinion Me too. ;)


1. Maybe I am confused, but I use the Foxfarm trio and it says feed every other watering... my question is, what if I do not need that many days of feeding (feed on monday and they are good till wed., then i water wed/thurs and then dont feed again until sat) do you think I need watering in between my feedings or can I just use my FF if the plants arent needing fed as much right now?
I Feed 1/2 doses on Mondays and Thursdays. Plain, ph'd water inbetween if necessary. If plant needs a little moisture to last till watering day, ok to give partial waterings. (keep feedings the same) There's a fine line between..."they can last till tomorrow..." and "shit...should have watered last night."


2. what would you say is ideal ph for water? and soil? runoff? I use phosphoric acid (phDown) to lower my 7.9 wellwater to 6.9ish, then I add my nutrients to that. This brings my ingoing nute mix down to 6.3ish. For plain watering and flushing days, I lower the water to 6.9ish, and use that. I do this in growth stage, and flowering stage.


3. If my ph were to be off; could I just add the ph up/down solution with my nutes if they need fed that day, or would you do it on a watering day, and can you add the ph up/down to the water on a watering day? I guess i am trying to ask can the ph up/down be added right with what you are feeding your ladies that day?
Nothing goes in without being properly ph'd. Measure water, add phUp or phDown, (whichever is necessary) then add your properly measured nutes. Mix well, add to plants.

Tiz why a ph pen is so helpful. You can even ph tinted liquids like nutrient mixes, runoff water...

[marcaka]

hey rusty def appreciate all the info! I have ph up/down on the way so hopefully i can get my ladies looking great again

[Rusty Trichome]

You should only need one or the other, unless you are getting your water from vastly different sources.

[marcaka]

rusty i started a log check it out if you can.. advice :)