What now???

[Prodaytrader]

A few weeks back I built a pure fog system. Plz no suggestions about switching to a new method. I have my reasons for doing fog. At any rate, about 4 days ago I dialed in the system and was getting really good growth and nice green leaves. 3 days ago I decided that the water was too dirty and that I should probably lower the ppm's in the water anyway, so I changed it out. I believe I took too long on the water change which was probably in the neighborhood of an hour. I wasn't careful enough with the bottoms of the cups as I ended up brushing some of the roots which caused several of them to start to brown and shrivel up. I have been having problems with root development but that is in the past. The roots are developing nicely in mass and they are hairy and white. At the time I changed the water I also lowered the light hood which I also believe was a mistake. After a few hours the leaves looked even worse. I think the light was too low at only a few inches off the top of the canopy. I just read that for a 600 mh light I should be about 18 to 24 inches away from the tops. That's been fixed.

There are other things I did wrong I'm sure but I will post a few of my activities over the past few days in hopes of someone spotting something:

1) changed water and left plants out of fog for an hour
2) lowered ppm's to around 400 to 425 from about 550 to 600 previously. My water source is 225 right out of the gate. I will eventually install a water filter at my source.
3) lowered 600 mh light from around 2 feet to about 4 inches from top which then caused the heat to rise to about 84 degrees before I finally had enough and raised light to 20" from top of canopy.
4) installed a new fan today to help lower temps which is just blowing across the top of the canopy.

Current measurements:
425 ppm
5.8 ph
83f water reservoir
79f plants
600mh 18/6 cycle now sitting at 20 inches above canopy
30ml in a 15 gallon res of root hormone
Fog timer set to 90 seconds on, about 5 minutes off. I continue to worry about not giving them enough moisture. The drooping leaves would indicate not enough water wouldn't it or too much light/heat?

Something to keep in mind is that what you see in the pics has been caused by many different mistakes on my part. I know leaves are falling off the bottom but don't use that as part of your diagnosis. I know that I likely burned them as well with too much fert in the begging, but what I don't know is whether I am continuing to burn them, or are the leaves just showing scars from the damage I caused earlier? About a week ago I had the light pretty high and was under the impression that I should be lowering it every couple days until it's a few inches above the canopy. Is it possible that my current issues are from me lowering the light too much? Given that the light is in the right place, assuming 18 to 24 inches is correct, will the leaves return to full green or will they stay yellowish? What else can I do here? Lower ppm's to 300 maybe and for how long?

[JackdaWack]

Your ppm's are to high, I have hard water about 250ppm and mine show similar issues in the seedling stage but not as bad. Your ppms should be around 200 or lower before the cotyledons start to fade. Once the leaves show signs of burn of discoloration they will not turn green again unless the cells are still living. Unfortunately u picked a very advanced growing method, and it takes advanced knowledge for it to work properly. It's a trial and error process with fog along with proven methods of use. You cant just guess the ppms and have it run every so often and expect good results.

[JackdaWack]

I dont know what your reasons for using the method are im no judge or anything but personally u picked the hardest way to grow that allows minimal room for error. An aero system would have been much better in your case to work yourself into fog techniques. Doing fog for your first grow or for a beginner is like jumping in the deep end and you havnt a clue how to swim. It's a fun idea to do the best way of growing, but it means nothing in the end when the results are crap. But hopefully u can pick up the pieces and get this to work. I know if u can do this trial run and get all the kinks worked out, the next will be better and so on.

I do believe most people use two foggers one for plain water and one for nutes, that solves the roots drying up problem and over fert. The thing with fog is u havnt realized is that PPM's play a role and also how often they get fed, because they will just keep sucking up nutes at a high rate in fog, unlike other methods where the roots take time to suck up the nutes.

[JackdaWack]

Where have you been getting all of your information and procedures for running a fog system?

[Prodaytrader]

I have read an awful lot about fog growing and I have not once heard of a two fogger system. Tell me more.

On the ppm's: Are you saying the source water is too hard? Would I be better to run plain water for now at 225 - 250, or go buy a water filter and then use ferts to get it to 225 - 250? What ppm's should I be running at anyway, my guess would be 200 to 250? I originally started at 800 sense that is what I was told at the hydro store. Every week I learn something new about this or that and I bring down the ppm's. If there was one person whom I trusted about fog I would listen to every word, but nobody I know does fog. My local hyrdo supplier tells me to stay away from the boards and the boards tell me to stay away from the store.

I don't have a problem keeping the environmental conditions absolutely perfect and I have faith that my setup will produce exceptional results, however it seems I am on my own for this grow. I have yet to see a grow log conducted with fog. If I had timer settings, ppm & ph levels I would have no problem implementing it, but alas I still search.

As to why I am doing fog: it's just a hobby. I have enjoyed every minute of this process from start to end. And I definitely agree that my second try will be better then my first, but I ask for a hobby or sport where this isn't the case already.

My wife says I need to just go buy some water for now instead of getting a filter, so that is what I will do tonight. I am bringing my tds meter to test the water before I purchase. I recall that certain waters are better but cant remember which one to get. Was it distilled as opposed to spring or local filtered?

[JackdaWack]

Well i surely dont know a whole lot about fog. Your ppms should be low until you get some good growth mass developing(like i said before 250 in enough to burn mine). Fog also utilizes the fact u dont need as much nutes, so u might want to shoot all the way down to 200ppm's for now. U can get distilled water at the store for about 1.50 a gallon, add half cal/mag, half nutes desired 200ppms. An idea might be to run a seperate drip system instead of a 2nd fogger, i know they use them becuase there a dry and wet type there called fogfognugen or something like that, i havnt a clue how its done or set up. However, like i was saying, u can run a drip system every hour to keep the roots satisfied and not dry, with fog, doing more cycles per hour wont help. That would be my initial plan to fix the issue, that or an ebb and flow, what ever seems easier for you.

Nutramist -- RETROFITTING (http://www.nutramist.com/retrofit.html) - some more reading :thumbsup:


It you dont have calmag i would get just regular poland spring or something, there about 50ppms, distilled should be 0ppms. But remember ur going to need cal/mag if u go this route. what are your ppms out of the house water?

[Prodaytrader]

Fogponics.com as well as here and a few other sources. There are a few attempts at grow logs here but they are incomplete as well as hybrid systems. The most crucial piece of information that I have yet to get from anyone consistently is how much fog do I feed them? I have heard dozens of different views on this. Another piece of missing info is exactly what level ppm's to maintain.

[JackdaWack]

The best explination i can find on the internet is to use less nutes then with a normal application becuase the roots become more efficient at absorption. I would say run the fog for 15min every hour, drop your ppms for sure tho.

[Prodaytrader]

That's a good article, thanks. I am still reading it, but it does reinforce some of the opinions I have thus far about fog. First off, the method I am using at the stage I am in the grow, many people use as a separate cloning machine. I have read dozens of grow logs where people have set up cloning machines to populate their gardens and they use single chamber fog systems to do it. Much further in the process then I appear to be now, these machines work flawlessly. Where many people disagree about fog is in the later stages of development, but I have that covered. My problems are likely to do with the water source. I have from day one used water that was 225 to 250 and from there have added various levels of nutes. I need to get drastic and come up with another water source.

[JackdaWack]

Best IDEA!!! you have really good water like me then. Go get some distilled water or anything that is bottle that has a low ppm like spring water and just mix one gal with one gal. You will have good minerals from your house water and then u can dilute it so the plants dont burn or have nute lock out. Once they get bigger u can forget about diluting it as the plants will enjoy all those minerals. The fog timing isnt that big of an issue as long as the ppms are inn range with plant growth. To get an idea of where your ppms should be i would take what a normal hydro system uses and cut it in half and up it periodically. So seedlings normally would be about 150, u would want about 75. 2nd week about 250, 125 for fog, 3rd week about 400, 200 for fog, and so on. I would start at 100ppms for now, the plants wont hurt but they wont grow to fast and bring up the ppms each week a little. a good indication u where the ppms should be a little browning of the tips tells u to back off.

[JackdaWack]

You can even dilute the water a bit more to add some vegg nutes in since i see your plants burned through the cotyledons.

[Prodaytrader]

OK Jack sorry to do this to you, but you added in some second and third thoughts. What final instructions do you have? I will likely get the water from one of these filler up stations. I will take my meter and get the lowest ppm count I can and if that doesn't get me low enough then i will just buy some distilled water in a jug. If I use just this water then I will have to add in Cal-mag, but if I mix it half and half then I can avoid Cal-mag. A 50/50 mix will put me at about 100 to 125 which will be fine next week probably. However this week, tonight's water change, I will reduce the water blend further to 25/75 to hopefully get a ppm of about 75 and then add in my oh so dangerous veg ferts to get a final res ppm of about 100 to 125. Next week I will bump the ppm's if all goes well. Does this sound right?

Will I be able to heal the plant leaves at least the yellowing? How long should I wait to see signs of improvement? Will the leaves pick up and the yellow start to fade?

[JackdaWack]

Yup that sounds good to me, Dont worry about the leaves, the probability of saving them is low, but they may come back. Fortunately your plants are still very young and u can let them vegg a little longer to get more leaves. I always loose some leaves its not really a big deal.

[LOC NAR on probation]

First I see your water as a big problem. You need to start from zero with fog and half or less nutes. Really you don't know what the 225ppm's are in your water. Chlorine or floride in a fogger will not work and we have seen what happens. It's not pretty and it looks like what is happening to yours.

The thing I found with fog is the roots can not be dry for even a few minutes. fog is so fine a mist it dries up fast. And will let root chamber heat up unless the room is kept cold. We finally had to keep the fog on 24/7. When the plants get bigger the fog needs to increase big time. This is where we started down hill. I meen you need alot of fog or your plants need the water up take. that is why even the boys at NASA saw that an areo system or DWC hybrid running was needed to really bring home the buds.

Get some clean water and pump up the fog they will be OK.

OH, and you have had some really good help reasoning things out.

[Prodaytrader]

By far this has been the best help, it's much appreciated. Last night I went and got some 11 ppm R/O water. I left about 3 gallons of my old water in the tank and then mixed in the R/O water until I had 150 ppm's. I added nothing else and will let that sit for a few days. Already 12 hours later the leaves have picked up and they give off good vibes. I'm not sure how to explain it but you can sort of just tell when you finally get it right, the plant gives good vibes.

This is now the 3rd crisis I have gone through and I have to wonder what else is waiting. I have a feeling even before reading today's posts, that the timer was going to be the next thing. I still don't have definitive advice on how long to set the timer for. Now today it looks like I should be increasing the watering timer every week or so.

As to the watering issues, tell me if this will work. I have a single chamber fog system so it's inevitable that the roots will grow down to the bottom of the tank. They will eventually touch the water and will be able to use that as their source of water. Will I even need to increase the fog if I allow the roots to grow down to the res? I have bubblers in there already so it's kind of like a DWC system at that point.

I have thought long and hard about whether to put my original spray heads back into the chamber. I used a homemade aeroponic system while I waited for the fogger to arrive. The problem I have with putting the sprayers back in is that my misters hit the bottom of the net cups which means that I wont have a fog zone any more so why even use fog in the first place. I know a lot of people use fog for only the first few weeks and then switch to another system. If I were to include sprayers then the best way to include them would be towards the middle of the res. Then I would have a fog zone, spray zone and finally a DWC zone. I think fogbox does something like that. My point is that I don't even have enough roots to allow the misters to even make contact with roots and if I raise the misters then I negate the fog. All the problems associated with fog tend to be with the later stages of plant development with the plants incessant need for massive amounts of water and I'm no where near that point. My issues seem to be with my retardedness more then anything. First the lights too low, then late night timer issues, now the water.

If I did include spray heads, wouldn't they best be used towards the middle of the root zone which means that I don't even need to worry about that for at least another week or two?

Thanks for the great info fellows.

[JackdaWack]

i would just do a ebb and flow or dripper, when the fog is off to soak the roots, or u could set a timer to fog, and then right after u can have another timer switch on a drip or something. So ur cycling the process, when the roots start to dry up let the cycle restart, the roots will absorb a lot from the fog, and then they will get drenched right after with the a drip or ebb or even ur misters. This should keep everything in check, and allow u to still utilize the full capability of the fog. That article i gave you is pretty good, u dont have to follow anything to the T, make it ur own:jointsmile:
About the roots being in the bottom, is it possible to have a separate res? I don't think u want the roots to be submerged for long periods of time. That tap root sucks up a lot of nutes, it might overwhelm the fog capabilities.

[Prodaytrader]

I broke down and put misters tn tonight and in a mater of hours the plants doubled in leaf size. I am pretty amazed. Regardless of the nutrients level the plants for sure have not been getting enough water. I think the problem lies in the size of the container I used. Tonight as I was installing the misters I noticed the fog wanting to settle on the bottom 3 inches above the water line. Now I could add another 20 gallons into the res or I can just get a smaller container. This would be more along the lines of the fogponic commercially available system with their shallow fog chamber. I also read that the misters should only be used in 15 on and then off. I think I will get a second timer for the misters as well. I can alternately cycle the misters and fog in a more shallow container and I will probably be spot on.

The only problem with using a second chamber is that I would need a way to move the fog around. Up till this point I have been using fans but I have had 3 burn out do to moisture build up. Unless I know for sure there is such a thing as a water proof fan, then I don't want to create a system that would use a fan. Besides I had fans blowing down and within the fog chamber already and still it doesn't help the fog stay were it needs too. A fanless system would be ideal I think.

I'm hoping the roots will be fine at the bottom of the res chamber. Since the nute level's will be pretty low, I hope the plants will be fine. Isn't this how the DWC method works anyway? I have seen pictures of a DWC/fog system and those plants were huge.

[JackdaWack]

You need to match the size of ur root chamber to the output capacity of the fog, U should be able to fill up the chamber completely with fog, not just the bottom, What fogger are u using?

Keep in mind a DWC grown plant sucks up massive amounts of water, and if your Nute solution is low in PPM the plants will be flushing out all those nutes the fog just gave it. But then again there is always a balance you could find between the two. A DWC/fog method kinda seems redundant becuase there 2 methods on completely different extremes of Hydro. One Utilizes alot of water and alot of nutes, while the other is the exact opposite, fog requires little water and low ppms. A DWC/fog method would be more like a DWC then fog type set up which im sure your not really trying to do.

[JackdaWack]

In any case, try and find a container that isnt so deep, i searched ur posts and found ur set up. Since the fog is heavy it will drop, and once it hits water it will condense quickly(remeber water is polar and sticks to itself).. I really think the best solution your going to come up with would be to find a container at least half the depth of the one u have now, and use a separate res. The fog has to fill up the chamber so it can engulf the roots, and if u can fit some misters in there go for it. u could fog a couple times before having the misters come on too. Also, the separate res makes life so much easier because ur gonna have to dump the water out once-twice a week anyway, with a seperate res u wont have to change the water as frequently because the roots only get what u give them and your nutes should stay in balance a little longer.

[JackdaWack]

I drew a quick sketch for you, the misting lines dont go through the bottom of the root chamber kinda hard to make it out, they would enter up on the side to prevent leaks. This way u will have a shallow root chamber and u can utilize all the supplies u already have. Much better to have a complete aero system them an hybrib that defeats the purpose. let me know what u think.

[JackdaWack]

damn dude, your making me want to go aero now haha:jointsmile:

[oldmac]

Hey JackdaWack,

I would like to point out to you that "fogfognugen" is the name I gave my frankenfogger setup that I built. It is an aero/fog grow tray(s) setup that uses two types of fog, one based on a high pressure pump and misters and second fog based on an ultrasonic FrapaPlas fogger.

Hello Prodaytrader,

I tried to answer one of your questions on another thread awhile ago, and have since seen you looking all over for answers to many more questions. I've been busy away from the board trying to take care of my housemate Tonto. (He's 91 and had a ATV accident)

First, not all fog is created equal. Fog growing is really just an outgrowth of aeroponics, just a bit more efficent. If you decide to supplement your fog then do it with aero, something like ez-clonner misters, are not true misters and are really hydro. Trying to go from hydro to fog will have it's problems, I just found out how big a problem. Rooted cuttings from an ez-clonner going into an aero/fog will loose thier terpidity or wilt out badly, it is kind of a transplant shock for them. In hydro they develope tap or water roots but no hair roots. Hair roots is what feed off of fog the most, and it takes time and right conditions to grow.

Second as pointed out above, you need to use RO water and nutrient use is much less. A good starting point is to use a 40% solution. Example is if the nutes mfg recommends 20ml/gal, then I would use 40ml/5gal. This is based on most handwatering suggestions to use full strenght nutes once then plain water twice to feed. Since you are feeding all the tiime the 40% is right there. Type of nutes are an issue, especially if you are using a pond fogger based ultrasonic fogger. They clog real easy. Make sure you are using teflon replacement discs and look for a clean running nutrient, many fog users swear by Humbolts master, but I've had good results with Duch Master's Advance.

You are not alone growing with fog, so hang in there. I would suggest you look at my album showing the building of "fogfognugen" to see what I used in my build. :D

[dejayou30]

I am pretty sure I told you in another thread about a week ago (http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-problems/177264-many-weeks-sooo-tiny.html#post2035320) that you weren't supposed to be feeding plants that young, and yet you are still choosing to feed them, and as a result, are still experiencing problems. How do you expect to fix your problems if you won't take advice from people who have been there before and know what your problem is and are trying to help you? :wtf:

[Prodaytrader]

oldmac few questions:

If I resolve my pump issue either by getting a cyclone pump or a diaphragm pump which I hear will also work, I can get the proper 50 psi needed for a high pressure aero. If I could design something that would allow for two chambers one of which is a shallow one for the plants, then can I alternate between the wet and dry all the way to flower? The wet I could feed into the side of the shallow chamber like you did, but how are you moving the fog through your chamber? What kind of fan is reliable enough to move the fog? I've burned up 3 thus far with my fog alone. Also, it seems my net cups aren't fully taking advantage of the holes. My slits only go up half way, which maybe isn't sufficient with fog?

Don't take it personally dejayou30, I'm just getting conflicting opinions is all and some of this info takes time to sink in. It turns out that my water alone was still too much for the plants to handle.

One other thing, given that I have low pressure sprayers in there now and the fog, I decided to run both simultaneously until I can afford the pump and a second timer not to mention all the chamber parts, what kind of timing should I be using? I am still keeping the nutes in the 100 to 150 range since I'm still using the fogger. My current timing is 10 off and 2 on running both together. Seems to be workings but like I said the roots are also changing so I don't want to over water and kill them all.

[oldmac]

oldmac few questions:

If I resolve my pump issue either by getting a cyclone pump or a diaphragm pump which I hear will also work, I can get the proper 50 psi needed for a high pressure aero.
I'm not sure that 50psi and those misters will get you to true aero. What you have going now is hydroponics with some fog added. Most of the true aeroponic systems are running in the 100+psi range and use misters with much smaller orifices. Your proposal sounds like a FAG system (fake aeroponic growing).

If I could design something that would allow for two chambers one of which is a shallow one for the plants, then can I alternate between the wet and dry all the way to flower?
Yes. In fact I've built two smaller and cheaper versions of "fogfognugen" that use shallow trays and some misters and a "bucket of fog" based on a 5 head pond fogger in a 5 gal bucket. The lid of the bucket has 2 holes, one with a pce of pvc to act as a hose fitting for the fog out. And a second hole with a muffin fan on top, blowing INTO the bucket to push fog out.

The wet I could feed into the side of the shallow chamber like you did, but how are you moving the fog through your chamber?
In my case the FrapaPlas fogger has a fan built into it that blows thru the ultrasonic torch blowing the fog out. When introduced to the trays, the fog will distribute itself. You are trying to raise the relative humidity to 100%, when it gets even close to that it will start to condensate to droplets on the roots then it's time to stop the fog for awhile. Consider also if building fresh to put your plumbing external to the tray lid and consider puting the misters in the top of the tray. That way they are always above the root mass. Also shallow trays allow the tap or water roots to grow to the bottom and can feed off excess nutrients that puddle there.

What kind of fan is reliable enough to move the fog? I've burned up 3 thus far with my fog alone.
In the bucket of fog I used regular muffin fans, but "moisture proof" muffins are available and are a better choice

Also, it seems my net cups aren't fully taking advantage of the holes. My slits only go up half way, which maybe isn't sufficient with fog?
That should not be a problem, enough fog introduced to the tray will seek out everywhere to be. Keep in mind relative humidity, it would be impossible to raise it in only one part of the tray without it raising everywhere.

One other thing, given that I have low pressure sprayers in there now and the fog, I decided to run both simultaneously until I can afford the pump and a second timer not to mention all the chamber parts, what kind of timing should I be using? I am still keeping the nutes in the 100 to 150 range since I'm still using the fogger. My current timing is 10 off and 2 on running both together. Seems to be workings but like I said the roots are also changing so I don't want to over water and kill them all.
Since this timing seems to be working good then it is fine. The off time sounds very good to me, the on time probably favors the mister side of things not sure how much you get from the fog in just 2 mins.

In my current fogfognugen setup the high pressure mister side runs 7 seconds every 1/2 hour. The fogger runs 10 minutes every 1/2 hour and the events are off set by 10 mins. ie: top of hour misters run, then 10 min later the fogger runs for 10 min and 10 min later back to pump/mister event.
Also I should note that fogfognugen is a "fog to waste" system, there is no recirculation of spent nutrient solution. I'm currently running the pump/misters at 200-210psi and with impingement nozzles with just .012" orifices this "aero" is very much a fog.

Hope some of this might help you. I have a thread from about a month ago showing a little bit of setting up my aero/fog tray, I'd love to link it here but I'm too lame on a 'puter to do that. Look for it in the "hydro" section, maybe I'll bump it up so you can find it easier. Have a couple of "fog" pics in it. I would love to see more people trying to use fog, it really is a great way to grow. :D

[dejayou30]

Don't take it personally dejayou30, I'm just getting conflicting opinions is all and some of this info takes time to sink in. It turns out that my water alone was still too much for the plants to handle.


Nothing personal, but it just perturbs me a bit when you post one thread with problems, I tell you what the problem is, and then you post another thread a week later with the same problems, without taking any of my advice. I am certainly not a know it all, but I am pretty good at picking out basic problems, and yours was definitely an overfeeding problem. My point is, I don't post on here trying to help people for my own health, and if you are going to post on here saying you have problems, you might want to try some of the fixes people suggest. :thumbsup:

[JackdaWack]

It's hard to decide whos opinion is worth more, some random joe on the internet or the guy who runs your LHS. It can take a bit of time to really see who knows what there talking about, unfortunately the one guy most people rely on, The Hydro shop guy, in this case was dead wrong and by a mile i might add. Either way now u know to take his advice with a grain of salt, and hit the forums a bit more, and hey, now u have some one with real experience and know how to help you out, 99% of the time most people on here are willing to go far beyond what u would expect in terms of help, and when its appreciated, people will never get sick of ur questions and problems.

[Prodaytrader]

It all started with your responces Jack so for that again, I must say thanks. I thought I would post some follow up pics and another question for my future modifications.

[Prodaytrader]

Strange that it posted only part of my reply. At any rate, let's try again:

It all started with your responses Jack, so for that again I must say thanks. I thought I would post some follow up pics and another question for my future modifications.

Oldmac: you say that even 50 psi is too low for aero, but what I think your driving at is that the best aero to use would be one with a very small micron water droplet which is best produced at 100psi. This is technically why foggers work so well however, they have obvious practical implementation issues. I fully understand that the low pressure aero system will not work well in conjunction with the fog, but do my water microns have to be that small especially since I am using fog. My thoughts on the misters were to get a pump from Harbor Freight that is capable of delivering 50 psi and then use a new line of misters that Lowes is carrying now. Here is link to the misters I wanted to use: Misters on Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Orbit-8-Inch-Coupling-Nozzle-10121W/dp/B000YAFTLG/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1257840448&sr=1-15) They have a mister section that is used commonly with patio cooling systems and a quick test with my garden hose showed that it would produce a very fine mist indeed, but I'm sure it's not as small as 100psi system. I intend to get two or 3 of those big misters and a pump capable of pushing enough pressure through there (tests show 50 psi for these misters) and call it good. Since I am using the fog as well, I probably don't need as fine a mist as true aero growers alone would need. I hate to dump another 300 bucks on a 100psi pump, 100psi misters and all the other stuff when I have something much cheaper and probably just as good as any other high pressure system would have especially since I have fog in there too. If nothing else it has to be better then using the low pressure sprayers that are in there now. Those low pressure sprayers have killed every last hair my roots had developed which I guess was to be expected. I want a system that will give the plants enough nutes as well as water, yet still keep the hairy root benefit. It's obvious to me now that fog alone is not sufficient to carry enough water. Within 2 hours of me turning those sprayers on the plants perked right up and now 3 to 4 days later the plants are twice as big. Whatever I am doing now, it's working

I have noticed that misters like these tend to clog up easily. With the misters I have chosen, I can get a few replacement heads in advance and change them out once a week while I soak the other heads in a cleaning solution. Is it possible that 100psi systems don't clog as much since they have more pressure? If the only benefit of 100psi over 50 psi is smaller micron droplets then I don't think I need to make that heavy of an investment since I want to use fog too. You use fog and misters, you tell me what works.

Long story short Oldmac, can you give me a parts list for your pump, timer and mister heads so I can consider going that route instead of something pieced together from the parts stores.

I am keeping pretty good notes and lots of pics. When I am done with this process I hope to write something up and put it out there for others to see. I think I have encountered just about every problem fog people encounter and now have pretty good solutions and answers to those issues. It wasn't easy getting to this point and yet still I have further to go.

One more thing, on the fog to waste system, which I have considered strongly, what kind of waste do you get at the end of the day? Do you have the fog and misters timed so perfectly that you only end up with a gallon or two of waste water each day? If that's the case then your fan on top idea would work great. The fan would, as you pointed out, never make contact with the mist and would therefore be much more reliable then a fan sitting in the mist.

And another: what do you think of my germ box there? I dropped the hyrdroton level to about 3/4 full in that cup, placed a paper towel on top of that and then a clear dome for the light to get through and boost humidity. I either need to put a vent hole at the top of the clear dome or continue to leave it partially uncovered and this allows the fog to push into that chamber. I have two sprouts in a little dish now that love it in there but I am also doing a test run with some seeds to see how they like that spot. This way they are pretty much living in the same environment from day one. It will be interesting to see how that works. I have been struggling to find the rooter cups everyone loves using here.

[Prodaytrader]

What do you think of my artistic rendition? LOL At any rate, I tried to draft something up that I think would work in my space. I may or may not attempt to divide the grow space into two sections in an effort to have two separate environments. I might have to stick with my first plan which was to grow start to finish each batch instead of trying to cycle them. The only reason I am trying to cycle at this point is because I lucked into a bunch of seeds last night but I already have viable vegetative plants. I would rather not slow my current ones down so that the new seeds can catch up. I might just stick some cfls on them or something to keep the new seeds alive but nothing more. If I do separate the room then i will have to run a split vent shaft as I cant think of a way to let in air but not light unless it's coming from below and nearly under the growing container. I can install vents in the bottom of the shelf to allow air to rise up under the container and through the space. I could conceive a way to divide the room if I had too.

By raising the table up I can put 2 x 5 gallon containers under the table and have a fog to waste system. One bucket will draw fresh water while the other can be the dump. This would make life so much easier when changing water and I don't have to maintain a 20 to 25 gallon res any longer either. I'm fairly convinced that their wont be enough waste water to cause me concern. I'm already mixing and dumping around 20 gallons each week and I have a recirculating system. I believe I know how to find one of those muffin fans that I have been hearing about. I might have to order it but at least I know it's built for fog and can use that to push the fog up the bucket, down a pipe and into the grow chamber.

Somewhere in my travels I recently saw a fairly flat shallow container that wasn't a tote with curved sides on the inside. I think it would fit my space if I could get a lid for it. It might be available at the hydro store. I can attach my misters to the outside of that but I think I would rather try something else instead, if it's possible.

Question time: can I pump in aero mist in the neighborhood of 50 microns with the same fan I'm using for fog? What I am wondering is whether I can generate the mist in the same bucket as the fog and then pipe it in using the same system I am using for fog. ORRRR do I have to create the mist right where it's needed which is closer to the grow chamber. I just don't know how heavy the droplets are and how far they can travel. I think it would be easier to blow in the wet and dry using the same method as opposed to running plumbing to the chamber for the misters to connect on side.

[oldmac]

The misters you showed will work well, especially since they are designed to work with typical house water pressures (40-60psi). But if you could run them at 100-120psi they would work better.:) Your idea to have extras and swap them if clogged is good. Not sure what pump you are thinking abt from harbor frieght, but I use a SurFlo 8000 series in 120v that had a 150psi pressure switch that I've by passed to get to 200-210psi. BTW these pumps can be had currently for abt $130. (google Streamrite Supply)

The misters I'm using are made by Bete Co., and are brass "J" style impingement nozzles with a .012" orifice. There are cheaper versions of these made in plastic that are available from AI, an aeroponic supply outfit.

For timers I use Sentinel, MDT-1 to control lights and FrapaPlas fogger and a DRT-1 to control the pump/mister system. BTW the fogger is on a 24hr cycle and the pump/misters are on a day time only schedule. I also have a photo cell that switches the fogger from nutrient solution when the lights are on to RO water durting the dark period, gives me a cleaning cycle at night.

When I finnally clean up my ruff plumbing and wiring, I'll post a picture of it all.

That's all the time I got right now, lights just came on so I have some work to do, plus I then need to get to my other grow. I'll try to answer more later tonight when I get back.:D

[Prodaytrader]

I thought of another idea tonight with regards to the misters. Since the misters only need to come on for a few seconds every so often, maybe I should just use plain nute free water for the misting. If I just use plain water then I can hook the misters up to the house water supply which would let me bypass the need for a pump. There is a water line real close to my grow spot.
This system and more importantly the booster pump is what I was thinking of going with. This pump is supposed to work with the misters that I was looking at earlier and provide 160psi which is right where you were looking for me to go. Somebody mentioned earlier or I read somewhere else, that many fog systems even prefer 2 or 3 cycles of nutes and 1 cycle of just water. You even mention doing water cycles at night. Since the lack of water is most likely the root of my problem anyway then this seems like a pretty good solution to me. Here is the pump and misters in a combo pack: mister system with pump (http://www.smarthome.com/31269/30-Foot-Orbit-Outdoor-Mist-System-with-Booster-Pump-30044D/p.aspx)

I can hang the misters from the bottom of the lid like you mention, connect the new pump to my timer and away I go. I don't even need another timer since I will just run fog 24h and use that one instead. I will need to install a good water filter for my misters and completely redesign the grow chamber to account for the waste water, but I think I have just about everything covered.

[oldmac]

....is probably not lack of water but the lack of very fine roots to take advantage of fog. But getting away from a water culture to more of an aero system with the mist will allow for more fine roots, which in turn will allow for better fog use. They tend to work better together that way rather then just adding fog to roots that are used to a water bath.

I like the idea of a pkg system, with the line water pressure and a booster pump. The only thing to think about is the total water used with that system, it is surprising how much water can go thru in just a few seconds.
Plain water from the misters and nutes from the fogger, lean heavy on the fog use, yeah that sounds pretty good.:thumbsup:

Welcome to the wacky world of aero/fog. Now you just have to build it, and experiment with it to get it right.:D

BTW what size plants are you looking to grow?

[Prodaytrader]

gosh....never put too much thought into it. I'd like to at least yield two oz per month but right now I just have 3 plants and who knows if those are even females. I have 2 more sprouts and about 10 seeds that I have going as well. Hopefully the next time around I can have all 10 netpots filled with a few varieties that I clone from this first batch.

I have heard 18" is a good point to start flowering which will yield 3 foot tall plants, right? I figure 18" will be sufficiently tall enough for my tastes especially since I messed this first batch up so bad. I'm eager to start round 2 already.

Did I hear you say that a waste bucket wasn't a good idea? As it turns out there is a washer/dryer hook up in this area so I could run a line down the washing machine drain hole. I'll have to ensure that the hole is connected to something. Previous owners had their washer/dryer in this space but have since relocated the hook ups to inside the house. So oddly enough there is a drain hole in the back of my grow wall. Maybe I can put it to use instead of a bucket at the bottom. I'll need to raise the grow table some to make use of it.

[Prodaytrader]

I was up late last night trying to think of various ideas for the next design. I ran across vertical growing with fog which looks pretty interesting but I think I will stick to something a little less radical then what I am already doing. I am curious about using buckets though or any other chamber system for that matter. I was thinking I could use 4 buckets and connect them in such a way as the top of one bleeds over to the top of another but that bucket connects at the bottom of the next and so on. This way the fog would be forced through each bucket entirely. Additionally I can connect one aero spray mister at the top of each bucket to supply the wet fog. At the beginning of the bucket chain I can put a separate bucket for the fogger and a fan at the top to push fog throughout the bucket chain. On the final bucket I will put a waste system. I could probably fit 2 or 3 pots on the top of each bucket lid. I'll see what I can draw up after I have had some sleep.

[EvilCartman]

Did I hear you say that a waste bucket wasn't a good idea? As it turns out there is a washer/dryer hook up in this area so I could run a line down the washing machine drain hole. I'll have to ensure that the hole is connected to something. Previous owners had their washer/dryer in this space but have since relocated the hook ups to inside the house. So oddly enough there is a drain hole in the back of my grow wall. Maybe I can put it to use instead of a bucket at the bottom. I'll need to raise the grow table some to make use of it.

I don't know how much of a PITA it is to raise your table, but a bucket w/marine bilge pump will work well for delivering waste to the washer drain. A simple micro switch on a float to run it. Worked for me. :thumbsup:

[Prodaytrader]

After a ton of searching I think I am going to go with this pump: pump from harbor freight (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=96719)

It runs at 145psi and will maintain that pressure. I learned just recently that not all pumps will self prime and maintain the pressure. So tomorrow I will see about getting an R/O filter system and this pump.

The container is still an issue. I located a 2x2 growing tray with lid for about 70 bucks or I can do rails. I asked about getting the rails that the Aeroflo system uses. I can get them but they are 100 bucks each and I probably need 2. Forget that! I have been searching and searching for vinyl 4x4 fence posts and might be on to something finally. Apparently there is a place in my area that makes them and they will sell me whatever I need to whatever length I want. They make an end cap for these posts already and tonight I saw an end cap with a 2 inch circular hole in the middle. Whatever it's true purpose, tomorrow I will be using it to run 2 inch flex pipe between the rails. My plan is to lay 4 posts next to each other since I only have 3 feet of width to work with. This will give me all the tray I need.

My biggest fear is that the fog wont pass through the entire length of the tray properly. I'll have to play around with it to make sure the fog propagates through the entire system. I'm not sure which will work better either by daisy chaining the rails or splitting the lines so that the fog goes to each chamber separately.

I will have a mister at the beginning of each rail post which should circulate nicely.