Wrap your mind around this...

[ghosty]

Yo peeps, I got to thinking about some world religions and philosophy the other day. And I came up with this thought that My friends agreed was pretty profound... Thought I'd share it with you. I was pretty stoned when I came up with this and I am kinda now, but I'll try to keep it understandable and coherent. ;) warned in advance this might get long. It touches on the concept of sin and validity of beliefs...

In many of the major religions of the world acts of wrong and/or evil are considered sin. Sin is a very prevalent concept in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam... Some sins are responded to with severe punishment, and those that commit sins are often looked down upon. But, is there any credibility to it at all. Can sin be judged accurately? I think not.... The concept of sin can't really be judged because they are biased by the views of the religions establishing them. The best example I came up with...

If I were to get naked or nearly, draw some symbols in a circle on the ground and light some red candles, grab a live chicken or other animal, slit it's throat wave it around a bit let the blood drip over my designs and over myself. Perhaps I even drink some of it's blood while repeating incantations to ancient spirits. According to the bible and some other religious beliefs I've just committed a number of sins, some considered to be atrocious. But say I'm a devout practitioner of Vodun (voodoo/hoodoo). This act I've just committed that's considered so horrible by some is a very holy and noble act, that I would even possibly receive appraisal for... So which is it, a sin or a noble act by a religion that has no concept of sin. Which brings a bigger question, how can sin be judged upon someone or some religion that has no concept of it?

This brings in the other question. How can anyone judge the practices and beliefs of another religion as invalid, unholy, or wrong when those judgments are biased by the construct of their own particular beliefs? How can one judge the validity of any religion without stepping outside of the beliefs of thier own? And even then one cannot cast valid judgment, because truth is... NO ONE KNOWS WTF THE TRUTH IS... Even the most faithful Christians who swear by God and the word of Christ even have to admit that with this logic they're no more certain or valid in their beliefs than any other. Nor is any other as certain of it's own beliefs...

Co-exist y'all cause no one really knows what's right or wrong...

[boaz]

yes, i believe what you are thinking of is the concept of agnosticism, or the belief of some people (like myself) that no one really has a clue about our creator. :cool:

[headshake]

religion (well religion as we know it) is merely a point of view. it is no different then laws of a country. they are merely the majority's points of view.

i think it was ben kenobi in The Empire Strikes Back that said something to the effect of (to luke skywalker on degobah, once he finds out vader is his father) "you will find that many truths that we cling to are based on your point of view."

you will find no more highly debated subject than religion. keep in mind that before all of the laws of civilizations there was religion. religion was the law of the land. now, for the most part it is merely a way to control the masses. i mean the catholic church still tries to denounce evolution for christ's sake.

not only that, but why don't women hold very high positions of authority in the catholic church? because the church fears women. this dates back to pagan times when men worshipped women, because women have the ability to give birth or to make life. people worshipped nature and the heavens and starts.

christianity didn't start catching on 'til Constantines time (4th century i think). Constantine was a pagan, but a smart leader, he knew that christianity was starting to spread like wild fire so he used it to his advantage.

during one point in time, the catholic inquisition killed over 5 million women in a 300 year period, claiming them to be witches and heretics.

why does the catholic church have almos 40 miles of shelves in a vault under the vatican that contain texts that can denounce them? why is there a gospel of judas that has been proven authentic? why do they denounce the dead sea scrolls that are written in aramaic (the language jesus probably spoke) which basically say that god is all around and that you don't have to go to church to get you some god. why must you pay 10 percent of your earnings as tides? why is the catholic chuch the largest single land holder in the world?

i'm not just picking on catholics. this is just stuff off of the top of my head.

same thing with islam. the word jihad means holy war, yes. but it means the war that one fights everyday to be a good muslim. not to kill inidels (someone without faith). last time i checked christianity is a faith, a faith that shares the same god and prophets (minus mohammed) as islam does. it was some humans input that tainted the meaning for personal gain.

that's the problem with religion today. it's not for the people. it's a business. and as long as humans can taint it it will never be pure.......nothing will.

one of my favorite quotes of all time is:

"until the lions have their historians, tales of the hunt will always glorify the hunter" (african proverb).

or basically, history is written by the winner. the loser is absolved into the winners society/culture etc. the winner ususally let's the loser keep a few traditions and whatnot to keep a sense of continuity, comfort or security. those traditions are eventually accepted throughout even the winners. it's the nature of the beast.

look at christmas for example, jesus wasn't born dec. 25. the bible tells us this. he was born in march (i think). why do we celebrate his birth on dec 25? because it's easier. because the two major religions before christianity have gods whose birthday was dec 25.

if you ask someone what god looks like what is probably the most common response you will get? an old man with flowing white/grey hair and beard. hmmmmm, this looks very similar to zeus.

so basically, all of these means are merely a method to keep us in check, fighting amongst each other, so the power and wealth can remain in the hands of a few.

it's always ones job to sort through all they shit they are told and find the TRUTH for THEMSELVES. never belive all that you hear or read for that matter.

sorry for rambling, i'm just passionate about stuff, ya know. anyway, keep the thoughts coming and i'll do the same. this is how we learn truths. question, question, question!


-shake

[RAINHAZE]

I agree with everything you just said headshake!! Absolutly. Spot on!
I have contemplated my existance for as long as I can remember. I have always been fascinated with History, and Archaeology, and have searched for over 50 years for the reasons why we are here.
I have been a Baptist, and a Catholic and back to Baptist again. I studied every book I could get my hands on concerning prophesies, and Biblical facts.
I eventually came to the conclusion that the worlds religions are a bunch of crap. I am no Religion now!
I love my Creator, and I believe there is a Jesus Christ so dont get me wrong.
I am deffinetly not atheist because I know I have a soul. My soul lets me know by guilt or pleasure if I am on the right path.
Alot of Religions use the wrath of God to manipulate their followers and I dispise this endlessly. Religion is like you say; " a business".
I might add that the only exception to this is the Spiritual path that Native American's follow.
To me their religion is based on Spirituality. No strings. No tithes. No pressure. No BS. I feel it is better to be Spiritual, than to be religious. So I follow the Red Road.

I have delved into the subject of NDE's. (Near Death Experience) and found that alot of people have returned and shared there experiences of a God that has a love for everyone so vast, so immence, and so powerful that it cannot be described into mere mortal words.
The more I read about NDE's, the more my own beliefs about my soul are realized. No Religion has ever done this for me. All they do is make you feel like shit and take your money. IMHO.

[headshake]

I am deffinetly not atheist because I know I have a soul. My soul lets me know by guilt or pleasure if I am on the right path.

amazing words! wow!


Alot of Religions use the wrath of God to manipulate their followers and I dispise this endlessly. Religion is like you say; " a business".[QUOTE]

not only a business, but like i said, a means of control. using it as an illusion to get ones (or a groups) bidding done.


[quote=RAINHAZE]I might add that the only exception to this is the Spiritual path that Native American's follow.


what about buddhists?


-shake

[RAINHAZE]

what about buddhists?
-shake

Absolutly.
I dont know alot about Buddhist's..but I dont recall ever hearing about them
killing people for their beliefs... or lack of.

There are numerous tribes of peoples through the ages that never ever heard of Jesus, or the Bible. I honestly dont believe they all went to hell.
As a matter of fact, I really dont believe in a hell, so to speak. I believe you go to a place of torment that is similar to the way you treated others in your life.
Regardless of what religion or not you belong to, If you treat others as you like to be treated, love, compassion, trust, etc, then you are doing good.

Even Jesus when asked what was the most important commandment replied that there are two, and one is like the other,..love your God, and love your fellow man.
If you break down the 12 commandments you'll find that there are really only 2.

[headshake]

i agree with you 100%. i mean if you look at judaism for instance, they believe that god will take 144,000 jews to heaven. so what about the rest of them?

it's also interesting because they believe in the old testament, when god was vengeful and spiteful and willing to reign down fire and brimestone. i guess that's possibly why they are so strict in their beliefs.

whereas the new testament is about love, and forgiving. it's funny how "loose" a lot of christians are with religion.

ok so those last thoughts came up on the fly. i just love good food for thought. thanks!


-shake

[RAINHAZE]

Thanks also to you. Good stuff.

Your right about the Old and New Testament. lol.
Even though alot of stuff in the Bible has been proven to be true through archaelogy, I question the 144,000 part myself LMAO.

[ghosty]

yes, i believe what you are thinking of is the concept of agnosticism, or the belief of some people (like myself) that no one really has a clue about our creator. :cool:

yes for these reasons, i am very openly agnostic

headshake, I think you and I are on the same thought train here... I would assume you too are an agnostic?

[headshake]

headshake, I think you and I are on the same thought train here... I would assume you too are an agnostic?

you know ghosty, i'm a little strange. while i agree that most of us don't have a clue about our creator, i wouldn't label myself an agnostic. i don't like labels. labels cause rifts which lead to bigger cracks, that lead to fissures, that lead to schisms and so on and so forth.

i go round and round often with thoughts of a creator. i just think there is too much "coincidence" for their not to be one. not necessarily an omni-potent string puller, but something greater than us. we come back to the chicken and the egg argument. that's a mind bender in itself. i know this is a weird one, but why would sex feel good? i don't think that was an evolutionary thing.

on the other hand, i don't think a supreme being want's to sit and be constantly worshiped. that's the point of free will right? and if "god" doesn't have a sense of humor or can't take a joke then fuck him/her/it. i don't think we have predetermined destinies, but i do believe that the universe tends to unfold as it should.

we must have balance. we must have dark to know light, hate to know love and vice versa.

i do agree with RH that i have a soul. and i'm very spiritual! it does tell me right and wrong.

i believe that religion may have honestly started for the betterment of mankind (although the church basically stole jesus message and warped it into some sort of controlling machine). again, anything that man has touched will be tainted. why do i need to go through another man to get to "god"? i don't. nor do i need to pay any kind of fee (tithe) or anything else. simply ridiculous. all i must do is be a good person, help others, be humble, show respect and other things like that. simple things. things everyone wants to be shown. i truly am out for a better mankind.

we are all bits of cosmic stardust in truth. but i do believe in evolution. i can see proof that it happened. no one can prove to me that their is a "god". that's what faith is though, right? blind belief.

see to me you have two kinds of minds, religious and scientific (or unsystematic and analytical). the religious mind has faith (or blind belief). that's fine, but why would you put ALL of your eggs in one basket? why would you try to argue facts (evolution) etc?

then you have the scientific mind. they NEED to know why. but before a scientist sets out to do something they have a hypothesis, or educated guess. for them to want to set forth working on that hypothesis, they must have the same faith. i mean they are going to dedicate their lives work to it. there has to be some faith there. one major difference is that that faith doesn't lead to a predetermined answer as religion does.

they really are similar, they just see the coin from different sides i think.

back to what i believe, i have a sorta buddhist mentality. i don't practice any religion. i live by my own set of rules so to speak. i believe in karma (she's a bitch!). i believe in balance, in nature. my three favorite words are balance, harmony and focus. i believe wall all need those things. they are all interwoven and correlated. three simple things that can lead to a better world.

but that's just me. enough of my thoughts. sorry for rambling. passion can be a bitch sometimes too!


-shake

[ghosty]

I get ya, I guess I'm not entirely a complete agnostic myself when I think about it.

I too believe in Karma and balance, and am well aware that I do have a soul, or non-physical self (made quite apparent in an out of body experience once, but that's another story and involves some unmentionables ;)...) I also strongly believe in the spiritual realms, and the unseen and have had experiences with such (hinted by the name). I do believe there is some sort of higher power(s) or force(s) connecting us all, I just choose not to define them, and acknowledge that I don't and cannot understand how it works.

[JackdaWack]

This is the whole bases for religious wars.... One thinking they hold the true religion.... Karma and such things alike are actually looked down upon by major religions, same with superstition.
The point here is, religious people must dedicate themselves to one religion, and within hat religion holds right/wrong. You cant compare being right in one religion to being wrong in another because the basic idea is that u follow your own religion and have hold faith in it. People don't look at other religions and compare there's. I personal don't believe in religion, and many religious people may think that with out one your a lost soul, boy are they wrong. Right and wrong is based on your personal moral compass, and if your part of a religion it should be centered around its ideals. Which cracks me up when people cant even follow there own religions morals.

[boaz]

... while i agree that most of us don't have a clue about our creator, i wouldn't label myself an agnostic.
...
-shake

yeah, i agree. i'm the same way.

like shake was saying, when you look around some times and you see, for example, just how beautiful the changing leaves are right now and think of all the details of its beauty, it is hard for me to imagine that this is the random result of natural selection. but i think to even believe in a "creator" concept may excludes me from being a true agnostic (or is that atheism, hell i forgot :stoned: :D ).

i think we may be "other" :cool:

[BlueBlazer]

Even though alot of stuff in the Bible has been proven to be true through archaelogy, . . .

Archaeology has validated certain historical references, not the religious interpretation of those events. Remember that archaeologists found Troy, but it doesn't prove that Achilles was invulnerable except his heel . . .