aero/fog LED grow table

[oldmac]

Just a couple of pics of an aero/fog ponic tray I built. This is 1/2 half of "fogfognugen" a 2 tray 4'x4' franken fogger I built. It uses two types and sources of fog; one is a "dry" fog made by a FrapaPlas ultrasonic fogger and second is a series of misting nozzles run off a pump currently running @ 180psi.

Going to start it out out with 2 TI Pro-Bloom's together on a light rail.:)

Was just working on light foot print/spacing of lights. Just abt ready.:D

[Weezard]

Grown in da clouds.:cool::cool::cool::cool:
I love the future, brah.

Weeze

[Rubberbubbler]

nice setup what kind of led light is that?

[headshake]

nice setup what kind of led light is that?



Going to start it out out with 2 TI Pro-Bloom's together on a light rail.:)


read the post!


looks awesome old mac! i can't wait to see it in action. i've got a fogger sitting around that i was thinking of putting to some kind of use.

i'm subscribed!


-shake

[disrupt86]

thats awesome what did u use for lids?

[oldmac]

nice setup what kind of led light is that?

Headshake pointed what I had said, but to be clear I should mention the whole name.

The LED's are made by Theoreme Innovations Inc. and are SmartLamp 600 with the Pro-Bloom option. These particular lights are now more then a year old and are the original housings, made of stainless steel unpainted. Newer lights have a different housing.:)

[oldmac]

thats awesome what did u use for lids?

Hi disrupt86,

The lids and trays are made by American Agritech now Botanicare, and I purchased the lids "blank" or un-drilled.

The holes are 44mm or 1 7/8" to use 2" net pots. Which I have found are not all the same. While the sample I used fit very nice the few thousand that we bought are slightly larger and don't fit as nicely. The neoprene collars I'm using are called "black stars" and are so much nicer then the typical EZ-clonner ones.

BTW: For anybody interested, I put up an album showing the building of fogfognugen.

Couple of pics of net pots and collar. The net pot on the left is the sample I used the one on the right, slightly larger.

[Rubberbubbler]

thanks oldmac for replying with the whole name of the lamps. and headshake I did read the post quit looking for something to jump at somebody it was a simple question. thanks. I am not trying to get anybody going just tired of when I ask a question someone is their to smear it in your face

[oldmac]

No problem Rubberbubbler. :)

In Headshake's defense I'd like to mention that he was just probably watching my back; I've had a few recent postings' that got ignored or miss read and I get really annoyed at the lack of reading comprehension sometimes.

"it's all good" as 'shake would say.
:thumbsup:

[DreadedHermie]

That pic with the fog flyin'... I actually drooled on myself....:thumbsup:

[Joefarmer]

Looks awesome OldMac! Clone tray or SOG? If SOG, how long will u veg? I've never seen so many net pots in 1 place! lol
Also, can you elaborate a bit more on the dry fog? I'm intrigued.

[oldmac]

Hello Joefarmer,

This is a SOG setup, and the trays are going to be used for flowering only. What veg times they get, they get in the clonner. Depending on strain, they will be in the clonner abt a week from showing roots. In the clonner they are just in the neoprene collars, transplant consists of putting collars into the net pots so they can't stay too long or the roots become a pain to get into the net pots.

I have built smaller setups that grow from cutting to finish in the same tray, which is fine for hobbyists' or personal grows, but to do production runs it is more efficent to clone cuttings seperately.

I use the term "dry fog" for the ultrasonic fogger because that's how it feels. You can put your hand in front of the output and your hand stays dry because the fog particules are so small. It has been shown that particules 5 microns or less are directly available to the roots' pores. By contrast if you put your hand near one of the mister nozzles it will feel and be wet, since the majority of it's fog particles are larger then 5 micron. This is really the difference between fogponics and aeroponics and why I consider this an aero/fog unit.
:)

[oldmac]

Just for DreadedHermie, to drool over. Are you sure that was just drool? :D

[Horsemanrocks]

Very cool popsâ?¦very cool. Are me gonna see it in action?

Sonnyboy

[headshake]

thanks oldmac for replying with the whole name of the lamps. and headshake I did read the post quit looking for something to jump at somebody it was a simple question. thanks. I am not trying to get anybody going just tired of when I ask a question someone is their to smear it in your face

i never needlessly smear anyone's face in anything. nor did i smear yours. it was said in jest. so don't get pissy with me because you "read" the post but missed pertinent information. i would think the words "light rail" would have given it away.

i figure that once you are around for more than 18 posts you will figure out how the boards run. it's a tight knit family around here. don't take everything personally.

as far as people smearing your for asking questions, what is the common denominator? again, just trying to solve your questions.

like old mac said, it's all good! i've got no need to smear anyone. if you take time to read my posts you will see the majority of them are me trying to help others. same way that i helped you. you just didn't like the wording of the answer you got. to avoid this in the future perhaps searching for the answers oneself would alleviate this?


No problem Rubberbubbler. :)

In Headshake's defense I'd like to mention that he was just probably watching my back; I've had a few recent postings' that got ignored or miss read and I get really annoyed at the lack of reading comprehension sometimes.

"it's all good" as 'shake would say.
:thumbsup:

i always got your back old mac! just get tired of answering questions that have been answered or due to lack of paid attention. i suppose it could always be an honest mistake. either way, the answer was in the post. and a simple google search could have turned up what he was looking for. and it would have probably taken less keystrokes than it did to post the question.

i guess keeping my mouth shut is not one of my virtues, but perhaps something i should learn.

can't wait to see the plans you've worked up. i mean after all, i've been drooling over it with DH!

does it require any particular nutes or any special steps or anything?


-shake

[Rubberbubbler]

i never needlessly smear anyone's face in anything. nor did i smear yours. it was said in jest. so don't get pissy with me because you "read" the post but missed pertinent information. i would think the words "light rail" would have given it away.

i figure that once you are around for more than 18 posts you will figure out how the boards run. it's a tight knit family around here. don't take everything personally.

as far as people smearing your for asking questions, what is the common denominator? again, just trying to solve your questions.

like old mac said, it's all good! i've got no need to smear anyone. if you take time to read my posts you will see the majority of them are me trying to help others. same way that i helped you. you just didn't like the wording of the answer you got. to avoid this in the future perhaps searching for the answers oneself would alleviate this?



i always got your back old mac! just get tired of answering questions that have been answered or due to lack of paid attention. i suppose it could always be an honest mistake. either way, the answer was in the post. and a simple google search could have turned up what he was looking for. and it would have probably taken less keystrokes than it did to post the question.

i guess keeping my mouth shut is not one of my virtues, but perhaps something i should learn.

can't wait to see the plans you've worked up. i mean after all, i've been drooling over it with DH!

does it require any particular nutes or any special steps or anything?


-shake


I was just asking about the light. Like I said I was not trying to get anyone pissy and yes it was the wording you used and your right I should not take things so personal but it is kind of hard not to when someone makes you fell dumb. anyway I am just trying to be part of this wonderfull cannabis fourm and try to learn and or help if I can:)

[headshake]

I was just asking about the light. Like I said I was not trying to get anyone pissy and yes it was the wording you used and your right I should not take things so personal but it is kind of hard not to when someone makes you fell dumb. anyway I am just trying to be part of this wonderfull cannabis fourm and try to learn and or help if I can:)

no worries. i've been there. and i assure you that i never meant to make you feel dumb. i would never intentionally do that to anyone, unless it was warranted. it was obviously not in this case. stick around, we always need good people around here!


-shake

[ForgetClassC]

I don't know if anyone else looked into a T1-ProBloom, but they are $1395 each.......jesus christo man, that's a lot of moola for lights.

[MerryPrankstr]

ForgetClassC,
Oldmac has two prototypes and I have one of their production units.

They are a bit of $$$ but work as advertized. They should last 7 years or so and still be on specs and uses about half of my equivilent HPS rig's power to get the same results. The output is so cool I can grow up to 6" or so from the bottom of the lamp (at which point light intensity becomes an issue instead of heat.) I'm on my second TI Probloom powered grow and loving it.

I'll leave oldmac to speak for himself, but I'm sure it will be positive.

M.P.

[Joefarmer]

Hello Joefarmer,

This is a SOG setup, and the trays are going to be used for flowering only. What veg times they get, they get in the clonner. Depending on strain, they will be in the clonner abt a week from showing roots. In the clonner they are just in the neoprene collars, transplant consists of putting collars into the net pots so they can't stay too long or the roots become a pain to get into the net pots.

I have built smaller setups that grow from cutting to finish in the same tray, which is fine for hobbyists' or personal grows, but to do production runs it is more efficent to clone cuttings seperately.

I use the term "dry fog" for the ultrasonic fogger because that's how it feels. You can put your hand in front of the output and your hand stays dry because the fog particules are so small. It has been shown that particules 5 microns or less are directly available to the roots' pores. By contrast if you put your hand near one of the mister nozzles it will feel and be wet, since the majority of it's fog particles are larger then 5 micron. This is really the difference between fogponics and aeroponics and why I consider this an aero/fog unit.
:)

thx OM, will u use clay pellets in the netpots? Or will they be naked. I dream of someday not having to use cubes or pellets.

[DreadedHermie]

I was just asking about the light.

Don't sweat it, RB.

I reread oldmac's post and I couldn't find it either, and I know about those T1's. :stoned:

Of course, Hermie also could not find his shoes. :stoned::stoned:

Then, Hermie peed on his foot. :stoned::stoned::stoned:

THEN, Hermie found his shoes. Why are they all wet? :stoned::stoned::stoned::stoned:

Go in your control panel and turn on your rep! Left ya some!

Hermie :rastasmoke:

[Horsemanrocks]

This is a SOG setup, and the trays are going to be used for flowering only. What veg times they get, they get in the clonner. Depending on strain, they will be in the clonner abt a week from showing roots. In the clonner they are just in the neoprene collars, transplant consists of putting collars into the net pots so they can't stay too long or the roots become a pain to get into the net pots.

Thereâ??s something that Iâ??m not gettingâ?¦â?¦.It looks to me fogfognugen would be an effective cloner. Why not do it all here and skip the transplant.

Sonnyboy

[Weezard]

Don't sweat it, RB.

I reread oldmac's post and I couldn't find it either, and I know about those T1's. :stoned:

"Going to start it out out with 2 TI Pro-Bloom's together on a light rail.:)"

:D



First post! in da middle.

It's da nature o da meds.:stoned::stoned::stoned::stoned::stoned:

For wet shoes?
See Alice.

Weeze

[Weezard]

This is a SOG setup, and the trays are going to be used for flowering only. What veg times they get, they get in the clonner. Depending on strain, they will be in the clonner abt a week from showing roots. In the clonner they are just in the neoprene collars, transplant consists of putting collars into the net pots so they can't stay too long or the roots become a pain to get into the net pots.

Thereâ??s something that Iâ??m not gettingâ?¦â?¦.It looks to me fogfognugen would be an effective cloner. Why not do it all here and skip the transplant.

Sonnyboy


Not a bad observation, for a kid.;)
It's an extremely effective cutting starter.
Then all ya gotta do is reset da timer.:rastasmoke:

Aloha,
Weeze

[oldmac]

I don't know if anyone else looked into a T1-ProBloom, but they are $1395 each.......jesus christo man, that's a lot of moola for lights.

As MP pointed out, you get what you pay for. These lights work and work very well. Have the most complete spectrum of any LED light produced.

This tray is being set up with 2 lights and a light rail, more as an experiment, my partner wants to use 4 lights per tray. I do too, just got to get some money together. Can you imagine $5000+ worth of lights per tray? I can!:D

(remember also that 1 tray is just 1/2 of fogfognugen)

[oldmac]

thx OM, will u use clay pellets in the netpots? Or will they be naked. I dream of someday not having to use cubes or pellets.

No medium all all Joe, just netpot and neoprene collars. Well that and fog. One of the main reasons I am going in this direction is to do away with a medium. In my personal grow I use RW and I have grown to hate it. Disposal problem with RW took me 1 1/2 years to figure out; you need to burn it so it will break down and burn it some more to eleminate the root evidence.:)

[oldmac]

Hey Horsemanrocks (and 'Weez, DH, HS et al)

Fogfognugen is capable of growing from cutting to flower finish, but this machine was built for production and can do abt 6 cycles per year. I don't want to waste precious flowering time on rooting of cuttings that can be done in a couple of EZ-clonners. Since this was built over a year ago, I have built 2 smaller versions, using less expensive nozzles, pump and fogger. Both of these are being operated as clone/grow/flower machines with excellent results.

Someone asked about nutes, since it has an ultrasonic fogger it needs something that won't crude up the fogger. While it is not as sensitive as a pond fogger it still needs periodic cleaning. The cleanest nutes for pond foggers has been Humbolt Master, but I really don't like thier product line. So I was originally going to use Dutch Master Advance, but have been thinking of DM Gold, like I use in RW for this also. I'll see which runs cleaner. Aero or fog usually needs much less nutes then regular hydro. I'll be starting out with 20% solution for the starts then abt 40% after the first couple of weeks.

As to showing this thing in production, I'm really not sure. Alot of people start to get uppity about seeing something that has more then the "federal guidlines" of 99 plants. I must admit I wasn't comfortable even showing an EZ-clonner 120 filled (got 2 filled right now!). In my own defense when this thing is running, it produces one large root mass and all the plants are geneitically idendical......so it is one plant with 138 branches! Well that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
:)

[oldmac]

Shameless bump to update.

Currently going thru a experimental run, have found that I can run consisitently 200-210psi thru the aero misters.

And to all that asked about it working with cuttings, that is going to get tried next. I found a problem with trying to go from the ez-clonners to the fog tray. There is a wilt off problem while the rooted clones become acclamated to the fog. This transplant shock seems to take a week to ten days to overcome, so it might be better and quicker (and cheaper) to simply put cuttings into the tray and start with fog to eliminate the transplant shock.

The other solution is to introduce fog to the clonners. We'll see.:)

[Pudish]

DUDE that is an awsome setup wish I had one to play with. Let me know how you make out pics would be greatly apprciated

[JMORGAN]

hey oldmac,
I would suggest introducing a fogger to the clone unit, that is if the roots are exposed to air inside the clone unit, if they're just floating on the oxygen rich water then there's no point.

[oldmac]

Hey Pudish,

I will certianly do some root porn pics, still not sure about showing that many plants in one area tho.

Hello JMORGAN,

The clonners' are a pair of 120 Ez-Clonners, so they are basically a water spray culture, with plenty of room for fog. Each chamber of an Ez is about the size of the shallow trays I use abt 8 cuft each. I could support that much with the Frapaplas fogger I'm using but means running some pipe to another room. Or it means another fogger dedicated to the clonners, this is actually my first choice. But, it would cost nothing to simply take cuttings and start them out in the trays.

Currently running a very short flowering strain, shiva skunk, that takes abt 6 1/2 weeks, if I start in the trays I'm only looking at abt 8 weeks total. Not the worst for production.

The long term answer here is to introduce fog to the clonners. Thanks for your input.:thumbsup:

[Pudish]

OLDMAC

Where would you suggest I am a fogger from. Anywhere you know that is cheap. I want one to play with. That is all. Something new. I might like it and use it all the time. Info would be awesome.

[MerryPrankstr]

Thanks for the update oldmac.

M.P.

[Horsemanrocks]

Sorry bout ^^^ thatâ?¦.just couldnâ??t stop myself.

No medium all all Joe, just netpot and neoprene collars. Well that and fog. One of the main reasons I am going in this direction is to do away with a medium.

So in time the root structure builds itself into the netpot. And being a SOG thatâ??s enough support to carry it through?

I found a problem with trying to go from the ez-clonners to the fog tray. There is a wilt off problem while the rooted clones become acclamated to the fog. This transplant shock seems to take a week to ten days to overcome,

So what would you imagine if the reverse were to be true. Iâ??m contemplating building an ultrasonic fogger/cloner and then moving them down the line to a bubbler pre-veg tray.
There was discussion on a thread that you participated in over at ICMag about the difference in the type of root development between the two (fog and splash). Canâ??t say as I understood it completely. Iâ??d love to get your take on the subject.

And, would you anticipate an acclimation period if the procedure was reversed.

Sonnyboyrocks.

[JMORGAN]

I was just thinking about running a fogger-only clone unit, but I remember that if you have an air embolism in the stem it'll die pretty quick... so I guess there should def be some type of root structure before trying a fogger-only clone unit. or I could just be st0ned outta my head.

JMORGAN
:smokin:

[oldmac]

Sorry to hear that HMR,

I tried the other day to answer you but the server timed out on me then would not let me sign on. Oh well got a few minutes now, let me try again.

Yup, just a 2" netpot and a neoprene collar is all thats needed to grow SOG or even larger. I use to grow 4' tall plants in a NFT system using just 3" net pots. It helps if the roots can reach the bottom, adds more stability. :D

There is a difference even between types of fog and of course water splashing. With an EZ-clonner type propagator, that is just water spray primary roots form first then some or a few laterals. With aeroponics that has a fog with an average droplet size of 50 microns, primary roots form then more laterals and some or few hair roots. With ultrasonic foggers like the Frapaplas creates a fog with droplets of 5 microns or less, you get primary roots, good laterals and more hair roots.

Rooted cuttings from an ez-clonner type propagator lack hair roots and enough laterals to get enough moisture uptake if left in only fog. They need or take time to develope the appropriate roots. Even the aero fog or mist, unless run for longer periods, will lead to wilt off. This will not happen tho if going from aero/fog propagator to say a water based growing culture, since the primary or tap roots will get all the moisture they need and can handle. And they must be present since they are the first to grow and must be present to develope lateral roots and hair roots.

Hope that helps lift the fog HMR, not sure what to tell MORGAN tho.;)

[Horsemanrocks]

You gotta remember that song.

Sonnyboy is foggy???

Thanks for acting so surprised.

Iâ??ve followed your fog brained posts at ICMag and at Fogponics. Iâ??ll keep reading at fogponics, but I think that the discussions at ICMag have been more in depthâ?¦.(so far). I do catch on rather slowly.

Okâ?¦..for a wild ass guess here, I would imagine that if you added 5 micron fog to your EZ cloner that you would need to fog more predominately and only occasionally splash to get what youâ??re trying to accomplish.
I do see the air roots form as they leave the bottom of the netpot and then disappear when the roots meet the solution below.

This will not happen tho if going from aero/fog propagator to say a water based growing culture

Well I just picked up a little â??one lungâ?� ultrasonic fogger to create a very compact fogger/cloner. Say eight 3.75 inch netpots or possibly just neoprene collars. (Havenâ??t decided yet) If I remember correctly the term at Fogponics is â??on rails or aerorailâ?� (4X4 or 6X6â?� vinyl posts). Your reply of aero/fog propagator makes me think. I could easily add an airstone on each rail and fog some and splash some. I suppose that would all depend on how long that they stayed in the cloner.

For ease on my partâ?¦.letâ??s say that I built the cloner with the netpotsâ?¦â?¦used the 3.75â?� netpots with lava rockâ?¦..do you imagine that the lava rock would mitigate the effectiveness of the fog. Lava certainly doesnâ??t seem to stack anywhere near as tightly as hydroton.

There is a difference even between types of fog and of course water splashing. With an EZ-clonner type propagator, that is just water spray primary roots form first then some or a few laterals. With aeroponics that has a fog with an average droplet size of 50 microns, primary roots form then more laterals and some or few hair roots. With ultrasonic foggers like the Frapaplas creates a fog with droplets of 5 microns or less, you get primary roots, good laterals and more hair roots.

Rooted cuttings from an ez-clonner type propagator lack hair roots and enough laterals to get enough moisture uptake if left in only fog. They need or take time to develope the appropriate roots. Even the aero fog or mist, unless run for longer periods, will lead to wilt off. This will not happen tho if going from aero/fog propagator to say a water based growing culture, since the primary or tap roots will get all the moisture they need and can handle. And they must be present since they are the first to grow and must be present to develope lateral roots and hair roots.

I do appreciate the in depth explanation. I gives me something to look for in root development. For some of usâ?¦..you really have to â??spell it outâ?�.

Many thanks,
Sonnyboyrocks
__________________________________________________ _______________

What would Oldmac do?

[GetThisOrDie]

Holy netpot! Thats alot of netpots!
Cant wait to see your thing of beauty in action...

[LisaDouglas]

Hi Old Mac,
Complete newbie here. I wanted to thank you for sharing this project with us. I find it very interesting and wait anxiously to hear how it goes.

When I get a lot more experience I would love to try a grow like this on a much smaller scale. I have faith that LED technology is able to get better results than what I have seen.

[cannamanibus]

That is definately the coolest set-up ive ever seen. Im all of the sudden really diggn the foggyfog idea. REAL SICK!!!!

Man im so curios i HAVE to ask, what kinda w/g are you avgn?

[LisaDouglas]

Hi Old Mac,

Just wondering if you experienced needing to use 50% less nutrients and a reduced photo-period for flowering as a result of using the Theorem LEDs.?


Thanks in advance for your reply.

[LisaDouglas]

Okay so I saw part of my answer after re-reading your posts. You are using less nutes because of needing to prevent gunking up the fogger. But no mention, that I can see, of a shorter photo-period. I apologize if I missed that.

[oldmac]

Hello LisaDouglas,

I actually use a 40% nutrient solution, due to using aero/fog. With fog it is very easy to over do nutrients since they are directly available to the roots without any buffer from a grow medium. Pond foggers crude up, but I've had no problems with the FrapaPlas fogger. Partly due to the Frapa's design, it has a much larger ultrasonic device, but also due to running RO water during the dark period. I have a built in "cleaning" cycle.

I've used the TI's for awhile doing container grows with Pro-Mix, and like most LED grow lights they do not dry out the soil as fast as a HID would. LED's automatically have less nutrient use because of this, so I ususally use a nutes first then water once, rather then the usual feeding I use for HPS which is nutes then water, water.

Hope that makes sence.:)

[oldmac]

Man im so curios i HAVE to ask, what kinda w/g are you avgn?

I'm only just setting the tray up right now so I don't have an answer for you. But I've built 2 smaller/cheaper trays for others that are both in use for awhile.

One is 2'x2' and is lit by 2-Procyon 100s, plus 2-T5HO 2' (48w total) and 1-25w red glass incandescent. They use 2-T5s (with 6500K bulbs) only for rooting the cuttings (24/0) for abt 10-14 days, then the Procyons are added for another week or so of veg (all at 24/0). Switched to 12/12 and after the first 2 weeks of flower the T5s are switched over to 2700K tubes. The total is abt 275 watts. This tray has an average of 1.1-1.2 grams/watt. BTW this system is not using any CO2 supplement, so it could go a little more with it.

Hope this helps with your curiosity.:D

[cannamanibus]

That is badass!! :thumbsup:

[oldmac]

Sorry to have taken so long to get back to you HMR, I seem to get to do one post or so when I get time for the boards. Just not enough time in the day. I've been real tired lately, between the two grows, patients and with Tonto.




Iâ??ve followed your fog brained posts at ICMag and at Fogponics. Iâ??ll keep reading at fogponics, but I think that the discussions at ICMag have been more in depthâ?¦.(so far). I do catch on rather slowly.
The ICMag stuff gets deeper into things cause there is a little more interest there, more players as it were. Fogponics is ok but there was/is not much going on there.

Okâ?¦..for a wild ass guess here, I would imagine that if you added 5 micron fog to your EZ cloner that you would need to fog more predominately and only occasionally splash to get what youâ??re trying to accomplish.
I do see the air roots form as they leave the bottom of the netpot and then disappear when the roots meet the solution below.
Exaclty correct, I would need to lean on the fog more and lighten up on the spraying. Good observation about the hair roots, they start just below "ground" level and are very delicate. You can wash them away with just a spray.

Well I just picked up a little â??one lungâ?� ultrasonic fogger to create a very compact fogger/cloner. Say eight 3.75 inch netpots or possibly just neoprene collars. (Havenâ??t decided yet) If I remember correctly the term at Fogponics is â??on rails or aerorailâ?� (4X4 or 6X6â?� vinyl posts). Your reply of aero/fog propagator makes me think. I could easily add an airstone on each rail and fog some and splash some. I suppose that would all depend on how long that they stayed in the cloner.
The output of a single head pond fogger is pretty limited but the real problem with pond foggers is the fog produced tends to sit on top of the water. The fog effect only goes a few inches up on it's own. This is the fog we need to get to that area where hair roots first grow, so some type of fan assist is necessary. I was thinking of using 2 single heads in the bottom of my EZ-120s, but then need to blow or suck the fog to where it's needed. At that point I think it is better to make the pond fogger seperate, such as a "bucket of fog" and pump it into the clonner.

For ease on my partâ?¦.letâ??s say that I built the cloner with the netpotsâ?¦â?¦used the 3.75â?� netpots with lava rockâ?¦..do you imagine that the lava rock would mitigate the effectiveness of the fog. Lava certainly doesnâ??t seem to stack anywhere near as tightly as hydroton.
Not sure about what effect lava rock would have, it certainly does have more space then hydrotron. I would be comfortable with a fogger like the Frapa to get fog in those spaces but am not sure that a pond fogger would.

I do appreciate the in depth explanation. I gives me something to look for in root development. For some of usâ?¦..you really have to â??spell it outâ?�.
I really should give credit to the authors of the textbooks and science papers I've read. And I will, some of the best info on roots I got from Clark, Lynn (2004) [I]Primary Root Structure and Developement[I], lecture notes. Heck even the Wiki entry for aeroponics mentions the wilt off problem when going toward aero from hydro! I'm just glad I can regurgitate some of the info I've come across, unfortunately at my age I need to read things at least twice to grasp it and then more is lost then remembered due to poor memory.



Almost forgot (see what I mean) to use an emoticon :D

[oldmac]

....maybe a little (or a lot) of root showing.:)

[Farmer Rich]

Hi Oldmac,

DAMN!

How long have those been in the system?

Peace,

Farmer Rich

[KenWood]

Why dont you show plants? That is a cool set-up.

[DreadedHermie]

Gazing on Oldmac's horde of mini-monsters is like gazing directly upon Zeus. Mere mortals burst into flame. :eek:

Thanks to my genetics I was only singed. :thumbsup:

I do love the smell of burning hair, but that's quite another story! :wtf:

[IEmPtYNeSsI]

oh my god. this looks awesome. im subbing this thread. cant wate to see it during flowering

[oldmac]

Hi Oldmac,

DAMN!

How long have those been in the system?

Peace,

Farmer Rich

Almost 4 weeks of flower, but had abt 2 weeks in veg before that. But this was a very experimental first run, and the tray was filled with rooted clones of various ages....some had been in an EZ-clonner for over a month others just a few days. It also had 2 different mom's give cuttings so there is a difference in growth. Things will be more consistent next run.:thumbsup:

[oldmac]

Since so many people want to see the "above ground" shots, here's a few pics. I'm not real proud of the differences in heights, but like I mentioned before this particular run had a whole lot of experiments happening.

Also a shot of the AC/dehumidifier, and a pic of what every grow room should have....a place to sit and watch the grass grow.:thumbsup:

[GetThisOrDie]

Lookin good dude... Im sure when you fine tune your table that you will get crazy good results! I just want to take a bite of that first pic! yummy...


So how stable are those with no medium? Do you have to be careful when tending them because of it? I really want to try that.

[oldmac]

Hey there GetThisOrDie,

They are extremely stable using just 2" net pots and neoprene collars.
Keep in mind that my plants finish at 18" or less, but I have grown 4' plants in a NFT system using 3" net pots.

Biggest problem (if it really is a problem) is you can't move the plants after a couple of weeks since the roots start to intertwine.

Biggest plus is that having ultrasonic fog, that is sterile, it will sterilize the entire root zone.:D

[GetThisOrDie]

Its a sweet setup indeed... After I move and get settled in im going to try and build an aeroponics setup. Also need to get familiar with ScOG. I like to look at your setup because it makes me think of the possibilities :)

[oldmac]

A few more pics I took the other nite. It was "haircut time", a leaf trimming in preperation of getting cut down tonite.

The real pain is I havn't gotten around to finishing stuff I wanted to get done before the next run. Oh well I guess I get more done under the gun then if I wasn't.:D

[headshake]

damn OM! those are gorgeous! holy trich covered colas batman!!!

it sucks being without the 'net. i'm missing everything. i'm gonna have to save this one and red the whole thing. i guess you are liking aero/fog business?

how important to use an ultrasonic fogger?


-shake

[oldmac]

damn OM! those are gorgeous! holy trich covered colas batman!!!

it sucks being without the 'net. i'm missing everything. i'm gonna have to save this one and red the whole thing. i guess you are liking aero/fog business?

how important to use an ultrasonic fogger?


-shake


Hey Headshake!

The trichcome production is excellent, but thanks for that goes to the strain, Shiva Skunk, and the folks at Sensi Seeds.:)

I've been headed in the aero/fog direction for awhile, and it feels good to have this tray finally producing. I'll be very happy when I can stop my personal grow and stop using RW. That has been my goal, to grow with no media; no Pro-Mix to drag out of the grow area, no rockwool blocks to dispose of, etc.

Ultrasonic fog produces such a fine fog, that can be used directly by fine roots but the biggest advantage is the fog is sterile. It will sterilize the root zone so that no pathogens can survive there. In this first run I did have a problem going from rooted clones from a EZ-clonner to the aero/fog and I can solve that pretty easy. But I left a few clones that didn't make it just to see if root rot could spread. The root rot could only survive on the bottom of the neoprene collar abt 1/4" around the dead stem and less then that down. The rest of the root zone is gorgeous; no slime, no green grunge, no brown or discolored roots....just clean, white root mass. I'm lovin' it!

Just had a thought, maybe the grow lights help with the trichs! :D

[headshake]

Just had a thought, maybe the grow lights help with the trichs! :D

what grow light is that OM? sorry i'm a little behind the power-curve at the moment. that doesn't look like a pyrocon. is that something new to the mix?

apparently i've got a lot of catching up to do!

on a different note, would a regular fogger do any good at all? the reason i ask is because i happen to have one laying around and thought it would be fun to play with.


-shake

[oldmac]

That's the business side of a Theroreme Innovation SmartLamp Pro-Bloom. I've been using a pair of them for over a year now. In this setup they are on a light rail, moving a few feet over the tray.:)

When you say "regular fogger" are you referring to a pond fogger? Pond foggers do work, but have a couple of limitations, they run hot and will increase rez temps if used in that way. Plus the fog tends to stay on top of the water and only builds a few inches above the water on it's own, so some sort of fan assit is required.

Here's a couple pics of grow tray clean up. Easy clean for sure.:thumbsup:

[Rubberbubbler]

Thats a nice healthy root mat. They look grate.:thumbsup:

[Prodaytrader]

very nice indeed

[oldmac]

That is the garbage to be thrown out. Real easy clean up. But pretty nice root mat.

I've been busy with my partner trying to square away things in the HPS/container side of our grow. Plus we need to clean up some sloppy work on our control panel here and automated switch over for the frapa fogger.

The next run, we are going to put the cuttings directly into the aero/fog grow tray and start that way, so we don't have the wilt off problem we had with this run. But this last time around we did do some experiments; like leaving some dead plants, with dead roots to see if root rot would spread...it would not, turning off both aero and fog to see if roots would dry out too much after an hour or so... they did not, etc etc. I like experiments that simulate or stimulate problems at this stage, when it won't hurt as much as being into a production mode.

Stay tuned, I am going to start this up again soon.:)

[Prodaytrader]

Looking at your root mat makes me think of an idea I had which I will run past you. In my next design I was thinking I would make my root basin about 2 feet in depth that would be for fog only, no misters or sprayers. About every 10 inches I was thinking I might run a layer of chicken wire or something similar so that the roots could create layers and can grow horizontally instead of just vertically until they hit the floor like yours did. Do you think I would just clog up my fog zone with roots or do you think the fog could still flow around as needed even with two or three layers of roots in the basin?

One other idea came to me which I now run past you too. I want to stay away from misters in my next design. I attempted once already and failed in the high pressure misters area. So my other thought was that perhaps I could strategically lay in some pools of water in the basin so that the roots could tap a more consistent water supply then what my fogger can provide. I haven't seen a design that I really like yet, but various ideas pop in my mind on how to do something like this. I could put a shallow tray of water just under the roots and drop it lower every few days. I could put tiny fountains in the basin or maybe some sort of NFT method. The idea here would be that since I cant get the water droplets small enough to use with fog I probably better just leave misters out of my fog zone all together. I noticed that when I used fog and low pressure misters the droplets tended to butcher my fog roots. My thought process was that if I used pools of water instead, then perhaps they wouldn't damage all the roots. Any roots that make contact with a pool of water would slowly become a tap root I suspect, but it wouldn't be a shock to the plants. I find that low pressure misters require a heavier root then what fog encourages. I am aware that however I do the supplemental watering that i will need to circulate it. So whenever I say pool of water I am simply thinking of some sort of water supply that doesn't impact the roots as badly as misters do.

Another thought comes to mind. Maybe I could get a mat of water permeable material that my roots could come to rest on in the basin. A mat would allow me to start higher in the basin during the grow cycle and lower it as the roots grow longer.

My Goal: figure out a way to get water to the roots while not beating them up with water droplets and being able to use fog once again. Recall that I have a 3 head Aero Mist which tends to produce dry fog. And like you I want to grow from start to finish in one system, so clones will have trouble getting to water early on. Know what I mean Vern?

[headshake]

can't wait to see what's next OM!

i knew that you were using Pro-blooms, i guess i just didn't know what the business end looked like!

i think the fogger that i have is not even for ponds. i think it's made for crafts or some crap like that. i'll look at the specs and get back to you.

i think i seed a little project in the future. thanks for pushing the envelope!


-shake

[oldmac]

A bump so some people can see the start of "fogfognugen".

[oldmac]

I guess I could update a bit of info here.

2nd tray went in so fogfognugen is complete. We purchased 2 more TI ProBlooms for use over the second tray, also on the same light rail.
BTW, LEDs on a light rail help alot with penertration, there is a constant changeing of the "angle of attack" from the lights. Plus it is kinda hypnotic watching the damn lights move back and forth, constant changing shadows.

Most recently this summer we built another 2 trays so now there are 2 fogfognugens, and they are stacked on top of each other. We started using 2- 1000watt HPS lights on the second one, and I can confirm that 2-TIs totaling 660 watts can and does outperform 1000 watts (really 1040 watts w/digi ballast) of HPS. So saved 380 watts but got a tastier product. We recently changed the HPS for PSMH, using 3000k bulbs thru most of flower then using a 10,000k bulb for last 7-10 days. This has worked out better then the HPS and finish and taste is like the TIs. Only thing I did not like with the HID lights was the need to air cool the hoods, but with out that the AC was working too hard. This is BTW a sealed room.

As always I'm willing to answer any questions that anyone has, on or OT.:)
OM

[MimbresValley]

great reading mac!

[khyberkitsune]

This is a neat system. What is the expected yield from a table of how many plants?

[oldmac]

Well khyber',

This first run was just a little over 3 grams/per plant finished, dry wgt. Keeping in mind that it was Shiva Skunk, not known for it's wgt and it took 6 1/2 weeks to flower. Plus the clones were of various ages and sizes, some dying just to see if root root would occur, etc.

Nowadays, having it dailed in with CO2 supplemation, SS takes abt 40-42 days, and produces an average plant wgt of 7-7.5 grams, and there are 138 plant sites per 4'x4' tray.

White Rhino and "Apricot" are producing 8-9grams per "plantlet" or abt 1,100 to 1,250 grams per tray every 2 weeks. :thumbsup:

It's all just a number's game; little plants with what seems small wgts, but put a shit load of them packed dense equals good production.:)
OM

PS, It's really amazing to me that the 660w LED trays produce almost identical numbers to the 1000w PSMH trays. As Martha would say, "...and that's a good thing."