advise on soil? [Archive] - Green Grass Forums

irydyum

08-15-2009, 07:06 AM

there are a lot of factors that go into indoor growing. soil is one of the least hard to make. i grow in miracle grow, or any other cheap soil that's available when i'm out and don't have any problems.

-shake

Shake, cmon man. You don't think that soil is a hard decision or important factor? I'm on quite the opposite end of the spectrum here, I feel that if you have a good soil, MOST of the other problems noobs experience become less likely.

Shiloh- What's your goal and what are you willing to invest? Do you think that it would be better to spend the cash on soil now, and KNOW that you are starting with something that works, or would you like to skimp the soil now, and spend it somewhere else in haste trying to correct a ph lockout or nute burn later on?

My thought is if you have a nice balanced soil with some sort of PH buffer in it, and it comes in around 6.2 - 6.6, it will forgive you in many ways down the line.

It's been my experience around here that the most common noob problem centers somehow around SOIL based issues. Once in a while it's something environmental, but more often than not it's using soil that is to quick to become toxic to MJ. By that I mean it can't buffer nutrient solutions well, thus ending in some funky plant deficiencies down the road.

I think you should buck up now and shell out the dough for something good now. It'll make any troubleshooting down the road easier. There are many different alternatives to FF soil also, look around at some of the grow logs on here and see what people are up to.

BTW, if you do go with FF soil, don't be fooled. You can absolutely still kill plants with FF soil. If I were to ever use it again, and I won't, I would most certainly cut it 50/50 with something inert like their Light Warrior. Ocean Forest was a little "hot" for my liking.

Rusty Trichome

08-15-2009, 01:27 PM

The best soil to use is that which is available locally.
Being a newbie, likely best to get the best regardless of price. If starting-out with compost or any other unacceptable crap, you can and will chase plant problems. Find a soil that already has perlite, and make sure it's for container gardening.

Fox Farms holds-up well and I don't hear too many experienced gardeners complain about it. Miracle Grow isn't cheap (at least not around here) but if you do go with a pre-ferted soil, you will likely only want to take advise from someone that already has experience with 'em. (Headshake or myself, for instance)

Most in here blindly bash MG products. I learned to grow cannabis using them, and I gurantee they are doable. Those that can't adjust...bash. Those that blindly bash without experience are borderline untrustworthy and lazy. (parroting bullshit is still bullshit)

headshake

08-15-2009, 03:26 PM

irydyum, how would i know any better, i'm a noob myself!? i guess i should think out some of my answers better. i by no means meant go dig up some dirt out of the backyard, or use any ol' crap. and i don't have a complete grasp of pH and/or problems caused by lockouts etc. but i do understand your point and am wiser for it. thanks.

rusty, thanks for the name drop. lol.

shiloh, sorry for the bad advice. i by no means meant to stear you in the wrong direction.

-shake

deleafer2220

08-15-2009, 03:49 PM

Something with a high N for veg. and lower P and K %. For flowering Low N high P and K %. Organic Soils seem to work the best from what i've read. Soils with out time released agents. and other trace organic material (ex. Guano, Worm Castings, Etc.). Do a forum search on soil and be prepared to read for days. Correct me if im wrong on any of this guys.
Got To Love a Wake and Bake Stay Up :bong:

weezer

08-15-2009, 04:57 PM

Rusty Trichome

08-15-2009, 05:05 PM

Correct me if im wrong on any of this guys.

Ok. It's not really that you are wrong, but it does depend on what you are trying to do, what you know how to do, (and why) and what is consistently available.

Ok...below are my thoughts on this, but that does not mean I'm right. If anyone has any differing or similar thoughts, I'd love to hear 'em:

With the standard additives you mentioned, plus and especially bone meal, blood meal, greensand...even though they are organic, they act exactly the same way as a time-release mix. (like Miracle Grow) Releasing small ammounts of nutrients (which can affect soil ph) into the soil over an extended period of time. Often, through to harvest. :eek: I'm beginning to think this is where a lot of the plant problems my stem from, peripherally. It's not hard to imagine spazmotic releasing of nutes from organic sources, changing or fluctuating ph, potential late-flowering stretching.
IDK. Maybe I think too much. :jointsmile:

Regardless, learning how to adapt to those soil additives is thusly no different than a MG user learning to adapt to a chemical slow release fertilizer. (except the MG nutes dissolve after a month or two)

Anyway...he could always list what's available locally, and let us choose, lol.

irydyum

08-15-2009, 07:48 PM

Don't feel bad weez, I'm an MG hater too. And Rusty, I don't think it makes me lazy or stupid for not knowing how to use it.

Why would I want to use MG when there are so many "easier" to work with alternatives out there? I suppose if it was the ONLY option. To that I would say if you settle with something you know has potential to create problems down the road, that is being lazy.

I couldn't help but think that post of yours was directed at me, maybe since it was posted right after mine. I hope I'm wrong.

deleafer2220

08-15-2009, 08:13 PM

A simple soil question turning into something that is not needed. I think we all have our methods and all our own reasons for them. So lets all get along :hippy:

Rusty Trichome

08-16-2009, 02:21 AM

Don't feel bad weez, I'm an MG hater too. And Rusty, I don't think it makes me lazy or stupid for not knowing how to use it.

For starters, I never called anyone stupid. But I would like to point-out that on one had you are saying you are a MG hater, but on the other hand you are saying you have no experience with it. Now I'm not saying that sounds stupid, but by talking out of your ass, you are not overwhelming us with your insight. Do you trust those that bullshit you?

Anyway, parroting others' bad info regarding any product or technique is, in my opinion, bordering on lazy (learn of which you speak...before you speak) and future info from these sources should likely be double-checked. If you fit this bill, so be it. Ok, great. You apparently heard and/or read that someone had problems with it. I have practical experience. Which do you think I'm inclined to trust?

As previously stated, I started learning all about cannabis and plant physiology while using Miracle Grow soils and Miracle Grow nutes. Does this make me a genius? No. It means I learned the facts before learning of the bullshit. It also means there was another gardener in another cannabis forum that was able to show me proper use through harvest. Plus, he also taught me to stand-up to those that spread bullshit, because unlearning bullshit is more difficult than learning the facts in the first place. I'm here returning the favor.

Easier to use...? No. But better than some mixes I've came across, and definatelly better than compost. Impossible to figure-out? Obviously not. There are two that know this, right here in this thread. Were MG cheaper than the soil I now use, likely I'd be using it now.

Barrelhse

08-16-2009, 02:58 AM

I just went back to dirt after a couple of years playing with other methods. I'm having the best grow I've had in a long time. I'm using Fafard Premium Potting Soil. It has a few nutes, but it's mild. I don't feed at all until wk 6, when they seem to run out of the trace type nutrients, like cal, mag, phos. Usually just one or two feeds, they're usually just in12/12to flower at wk 5 or so. I've been using Jack's Plant Food; they make a 20-20-20, 15-30-15, and 10-30-20. I don't use much, 1/4 teaspoon per gal. when I do use it. Anyway, the results from the Fafard are impressive, and I've done quite a bit of dirt growing over the yrs (I'm 60). By the way, I'm paying $5.99 for a 16 qt bag, so I spend about $7.50-$9.00 each over the life of the plant.

irydyum

08-16-2009, 06:22 AM

I guess seeing countless others go through their trials and tribulations right here on this website is what you term "talking out my ass". I have seen quite a few newer growers on here have trouble with MG because they don't know how to use it. Maybe you should put up a thread about how to use it properly instead of just swearing to us that it works? That would definitely clear up the whole "MG" debate.

Can we look at the facts as they apply to this thread for a second? Just someone looking for advice/opinions on soil choices, can't we just offer our opinions here and have the whole MG conversation somewhere else.

Shiloh- Sorry we got deviated from your objective here, and I'm doubly sorry that I offered my obviously "parroted" opinion. Best of luck with whatever you decide to grow with :thumbsup:

deleafer2220

08-16-2009, 06:39 AM

Most "new" growers have problems with MG because it is notorious for burning plants if followed by box instructions and not given in a lower amount (ex. 1/4 recommended amount). This is simply what i have read on this forum in many threads. I say if you have MG nutes down pat then the more power to you :thumbsup:. For the original poster there is tons of threads on here about soil and different companies. Pick one and keep us updated :smokin:

shiloh

08-16-2009, 11:16 AM

thank you much everyone for stopping by..and wow! this is not what im anticipated....im a noob here and also to growing as well...im looking into growing a nice crop..please state your recommendation on soil and why do you think its better..(from experience and knowledge) IRYDYUM: i agreed with you i think good soil does have play a big impact on your grow...i read on TRANOBLE's thread on his sealed room log..he mentioned about the soil he use "sunshine mix #4" was one of the soil he use with a great result but where im at they dont carry that type of soil...anywase what type of soil are you using? do you think i should just go with FF? its a lil expensive but i dont mind investing in it but preferbly cheaper tho :D i hope we all should get back to my lil question and tell me what type of soil you are using and result you are getting...im noob so the more problem i can eliminate the better even i have to pay a lil more...thanks...

Shovelhandle

08-16-2009, 12:55 PM

I make my own.

start with a pro mix HP or similar base 25%
perlite 25%
peat moss 20%
pulverized lime -a little
vermiculite -a little
worm castings, guano, compost and/or composted manure for nutition. 25%

I will recycle the used soil by adding some biology (forest humus, beer, alfalfa) let it work for a month or more and use in place of the promix starter.

Rusty Trichome

08-16-2009, 01:10 PM

Shiloh: Any potting mix you get, you will have to learn how to use. Almost any commercial mix, someone in here has tried, and can help you through the little details. Pick one that's not too chunky, not too fine. Don't use seedling mix or compost. Avoid pre-ferted if possible, but don't be afraid of MG if it's the only mix available.

I guess seeing countless others go through their trials and tribulations right here on this website is what you term "talking out my ass".

You can say that about almost any nutrient or medium ever mentioned on these forums. Yet you single-out MG. Why? Because you heard from other newbies that they couldn't adjust, and it's an easy target already stigmatized by folklore and sub-par gardening techniques?

But anyway...giving advise without prior knowledge of what you are speaking...is talking out of your ass. Have you ever used it to grow your cannabis, or do you just blindly attack shit you don't understand, with the rest of the 'clueless' crowd?

Show me the posts you are refering to. I have repeatedly had conversations with growers regarding the proper use and application of Miracle Grow, and the proper use of Miracle Grow soils.

How about you start a thread showing the evils of MG so we can truly see your experience level? So far all you've shown is that you do not need facts to get in the way of offering advise.

Did I ever say it's the best shit in the world, and everyomne should switch? No. But I stand by my statements, and if you can prove me wrong...go for it. A little warning though...I used it for a couple of years, and any evidence you present, should likely be valid. :jointsmile:

headshake

08-16-2009, 05:31 PM

...i read on TRANOBLE's thread on his sealed room log..he mentioned about the soil he use "sunshine mix #4" was one of the soil he use with a great result but where im at they dont carry that type of soil...anywase what type of soil are you using? do you think i should just go with FF? its a lil expensive but i dont mind investing in it but preferbly cheaper tho ...thanks...

sunshine mix is soiless if i'm not mistaken.

go down to your local nursery and ASK their opinion. tell em you are growing tomatoes. they should be able to help you out. don't get caught up on the name of Fox Farms.

like rusty said, anything you choose to grow in you are going to have to LEARN how to grow in it. so no matter what we tell you is the best, YOU are still going to have to learn to grow in it.

depending on the size of your grow (ladies in flower, in veg, clones etc.) you are going to go through a bunch of soil. so $20-25 a bag will start to add up quick.

so again, find something local and cheap that works well.

the main things you want are good aeration and drainage (preferably without nutes).

come one rusty and irydyum, let's not push each other buttons. we need all the help, knowledge, experience and opinions we can get around here. i love both of you guys!

-shake

irydyum

08-16-2009, 07:38 PM

Shake, I think it's retarded that my personal opinion is being attacked as if it's my character. I have always found Rusty to be a solid source of knowledge even if you have to have thick skin to handle the way it gets delivered to you at times.

Rusty that's cool if you used MG for years and had success with it. I'm not going to waste my time using MG just to prove that it's more difficult to adapt to than my current setup. WTF would that prove? All you would do is tell me that i'm doing everything wrong with it anyways, plus I'm not a fan of growing with synthetics. Hence the reason I wouldn't touch it. If you want to ride me out of here to prove that MG shouldn't be demonized, have at it. Again we are in a thread where a Noob asked for soil advice, I'm not in the business of suggesting how to adapt to every soil system when that wasn't the aim of the thread. I was here offering my opinion, and if you don't like my opinion, I don't care. You have already pointed out to everyone here that I'm not educated in my opinions, which I truly appreciate. I'm done with arguing to defend myself, dude will make his choice and it will likely have nothing to do with either of us since we chose to fight instead of collaborate.

This whole thing started because I said i'm an MG hater. Rusty, why do you give a shit if I don't like it? Where did I "blindly attack" MG? And furthermore, since when does your aptitude level with Miracle Grow indicate your experience level? I'm not here asking for help with soil. If you want to offer the MG way of growing, fantastic. I'm not going to stop you, or even argue with you. I would likely sit back and see how it works. I think you have me sorely mistaken with someone I'm not.

shiloh

08-18-2009, 12:23 AM

Okay, this is what I will go with...foxfarm soil and GH3 (flora,micro,bloom) and growth excel from AN..what do you guy think? my clone is ready to be put down in the soil...should I start using the GH3 or wait a for a week or two. im looking to get the hight up to about 1.5" then flower. my goal is to get 2oz per plants...thanks

carinia

08-18-2009, 12:43 AM

Hi Shiloh, even tho you made some good choices, just thought Id throw down what I use; soil I go for promix, its light, airy, buffers well, the roots like it. :) Its also not as pricey as fox farm, like 10 bucks for 3 cubic feet i think. Or sunshine mix, depending on which store Im at. Fox farm nutes, the organics are pretty kick ass for a newbie.

Oh and Id wait a few days/week after transplant to start your nutes! :)

phatsesh101

08-18-2009, 02:37 AM

any medium can be used, i knew a dude that grew some good stuff in playground sand and mg ferts or maybe schultz, i wouldnt have believed it if i didnt see it. (i wouldnt use sand)

well alot of things come into play and youll have to learn to adjust

i generally use the second from the top line at my local nursery for potted plants if theyre gonna be in pots sometimes i add perlite sometimes i dont and it usually costs between 6-10 dollars.

recently since the supermarkets started carrying the entire FF line i found a store that dropped their price per bag to $12 for 1.5 and ive had to adjust my purple erkle goes magnesium def. after about a month and my headband went p-k defficient at around the same time. so what im saying i guess is close your eyes and point to pick one. if you like fox farms read the ingredients and go to the nursery and find the same thing with a different name.

as far as sunshine i wouldnt recomend it if theyre gonna be growing longer than 3-4 months cause after the lime runs out it might get difficult to maintain proper ph

i currently am using FFOF i a gallon for a month til nutes are bout gone then to pmix4 where i can control flower nutes so i only buy flower nutes.

shiloh

08-18-2009, 07:19 AM

DOUGAL25

08-18-2009, 09:31 AM

thank you, let me go off the subject a lil bit..im getting ready to transplant the clone is it safe to put it under 1k watt hps light if so what is the correct distance between the light and the plant?
If it's rooted, you should be able to nuke it (with light)...It's when you are looking to create roots on a clone when you want reduced light!

also, should i ph the water befor adding nutes or mix the nute in the water first then ph the water..thanks
Mix the nutes in the water then ph it!
:stoned:

Rusty Trichome

08-18-2009, 12:20 PM

thank you, let me go off the subject a lil bit..im getting ready to transplant the clone is it safe to put it under 1k watt hps light if so what is the correct distance between the light and the plant? also, should i ph the water befor adding nutes or mix the nute in the water first then ph the water..thanks

1000w is a large chunk of overkill unless you've got shitloads of clones.
I'd start 'em at about 3-4 feet from tops, but check that it's not too hot, and that the soil doesn't dry too quickly.
Do you use a cool-tube?

If you have a ph pen, nutes first then adjust the ph.
If using an aquarium test kit, adjust to 6.8 or so, then add nutes. (nutes generally bring down the ph further)

This whole thing started because I said i'm an MG hater. Rusty, why do you give a shit if I don't like it? Where did I "blindly attack" MG? And furthermore, since when does your aptitude level with Miracle Grow indicate your experience level? I'm not here asking for help with soil. If you want to offer the MG way of growing, fantastic. I'm not going to stop you, or even argue with you. I would likely sit back and see how it works. I think you have me sorely mistaken with someone I'm not.
This disagreement started when you tried to spread bullshit about a product you've never had any experience with, yet even lacking any experience...you are totally willing to share your inexperience and continue the folklore.

You've got a strange way of twisting this disagreement around. Where did I say that your ability to use MG is in any way connected to your aptitude? I didn't. However, your experience level can and will get you through virtually any growroom situation, including the ability to see a plant's condition, and reactions...and adjust from there. This ability does not stop at the Miracle Grow bag.

You can be the smartest egg in the crate, but as I have stated plenty of times before...bullshit is bullshit. It doesn't matter how smart you are. But it does matter that you seem to be willing to take shortcuts and parrot bullshit with something as simple as answering a question about soil...

Doesn't it suck making such a mess out of answering a newbies post? Perhaps next time you'll post about something you actually have first-hand knowlege or experience with.

Have a good day. :thumbsup:

florida boy 3

08-18-2009, 01:29 PM

about time someone stood up for miracle grow. iv'e been using it for 6 years and never had a problem. i let the time-release ferts do their job during the growing period. and once i switch to 12/12 i use foxfarms big grow, big bloom, and tiger bloom. i keep a bottle of (ph down) on hand to keep everything growing. i'm with rusty on this one.

deleafer2220

08-18-2009, 01:40 PM

1000w is a bit over kill for a single clone ?

ditdotter

08-18-2009, 04:13 PM

The first 3 or 4 grows I did with Miracle Grow, and yes I had problems like 99% of all nubes when I first started out. Experience is the best teacher. You learn to adapt to whatever soil you happen to be using.
I grew tomatoes for years in Earthboxes and used a potting soil by the name of Sun Gro Metro Mix found at the local nursery. It does't contain any nutes that I can tell from reading the outside of the bag, but it sure grows some nice tomatoes. A couple of summers ago I decided to try to grow cannabis in it and I was pleased with the results. The only thing I do to modify it is to add more perlite. Then feed according to what the plants tell me. I run the used "soil" through the composter then use it again to grow tomatoes and peppers with.
A question I have is- I have never reused the potting mix to grow pot in though tomatoes and such don't seem to mind. Can it be reused and what kind of treatment would it require or do you just dump it and write it down as a growing expence?

irydyum

08-18-2009, 06:54 PM

Doesn't it suck making such a mess out of answering a newbies post? Perhaps next time you'll post about something you actually have first-hand knowlege or experience with.

Have a good day. :thumbsup:

Not really. I don't think it's a mess at all. I see you with your eloquent words belittling people when they disagree with you. I'm fine with it. I know what I produce, and nothing you say can take that away. I'm not even mad at you. If I let everyone with a different view upset me, I would be jaded as hell. Not gonna happen. Good day to you as well.

phatsesh101

08-18-2009, 10:43 PM

if its all you have there are some variables.

i grow at a local collective and they run 100+ clones under a 1000w at 10-16inches but maintain a canopy temp of 78F

so if i were you id lsten to rusty, start farther away and monitor but never closer than 10 inches or youll light bleach.

rusty is safe and scientific when it comes to growing (a bit grumpy & confrontational at times), if youre dependent on your crop, he will offer great reliable info and tell you when to ask another if he doesnt know.

most other are more opinionated per experience or bias, I am not taking sides in this argument cause irydium offers good info also. theyre saying the same thing in different ways.

good soil is better to have. i think newbs find time release pellets to be bit of a pain (overwatering, popping to many too fast or maybe under watering and not popping enough) hence the dislike for standard MG. MG organic has slow release bone meals that rely on microbes so its harder to over do it.

BlewBerry

08-20-2009, 08:34 AM

:angry3:

DTRave420

08-20-2009, 09:51 AM

I'm looking to start few plants indoor. I would like to know what is the best soil out there...i suppose foxfarm is good but lil too pricey for me...any advise?

I prefer to make my own veg and flower mediums starting with Pro-Mix as my base...However,for the person who just wants to pretty much use a potting soil right out of the bag,I'd recommend Aurora Innovations: ROOTS ORGANICS NATURAL & ORGANIC POTTING SOIL ... This soil is ammended with bat guano,earthworm castings,fish bone meal,,feather meal,green sand,mycorrihzae,glacial rock dust,soybean meal,humic acid,etc...

If you go with this brand,I'd recommend adding a little more perlite...

It even comes packed in a comouflage grow bag heehee...You can poke drainage holes in the bottom and grow a monster right outta the bag!!!:D

Rusty Trichome

08-20-2009, 11:48 AM

rusty is ...a bit grumpy & confrontational at times. I asked my wife if I was grumpy and confrontational. She just laughed and walked away. (whatever that means ;))

MDFinest

08-20-2009, 04:21 PM

1000w is a large chunk of overkill unless you've got shitloads of clones.
I'd start 'em at about 3-4 feet from tops, but check that it's not too hot, and that the soil doesn't dry too quickly.
Do you use a cool-tube?

If you have a ph pen, nutes first then adjust the ph.
If using an aquarium test kit, adjust to 6.8 or so, then add nutes. (nutes generally bring down the ph further)

This disagreement started when you tried to spread bullshit about a product you've never had any experience with, yet even lacking any experience...you are totally willing to share your inexperience and continue the folklore.

You've got a strange way of twisting this disagreement around. Where did I say that your ability to use MG is in any way connected to your aptitude? I didn't. However, your experience level can and will get you through virtually any growroom situation, including the ability to see a plant's condition, and reactions...and adjust from there. This ability does not stop at the Miracle Grow bag.

You can be the smartest egg in the crate, but as I have stated plenty of times before...bullshit is bullshit. It doesn't matter how smart you are. But it does matter that you seem to be willing to take shortcuts and parrot bullshit with something as simple as answering a question about soil...

Doesn't it suck making such a mess out of answering a newbies post? Perhaps next time you'll post about something you actually have first-hand knowlege or experience with.

Have a good day. :thumbsup:

thats pretty much what it comes down to..

no matter what medium you use you have to be able to adjust to whatever problems you might come across.

scrumby

08-23-2009, 01:43 PM

Someone used a bunch of my soil so my current grow has some pots with 100% Miracle Grow, some with 50/50 MG, and backyard dirt, then some with 100% backyard dirt. I cant see any difference. Backyard dirt has alot of clay in it, so its harder to water though.

monny10

08-23-2009, 02:08 PM

Hi guys,

Does anyone have any experience using canna coco?

This will be my first grow and I was debating with myself over which medium to grow my crop in.....hmmm???

I have been looking into using canna coco (the stuff that comes in the 50L sacks) and then feeding with canna coco A+B Nutrients.....Has anyone used this before and can give some advice?

Also can the coco be used to pot clones?

Or am I best to just go buy some local potting compost and then maybe feed with the canna coco terra vega and terra flores...

If you wanna know which nutrients I'm talking about check out this website:

Basement Lighting Hydroponics and Grow Lights - Soil Nutrients (http://www.basementlighting.com/soil_nutrients.htm)

It would be a great help If anyone has some good advice

Cheers!

frostedwonder

08-23-2009, 02:35 PM

Well Promix and Fox Farm ocean soil and light warrior worked really well for me and I will continue to use them based on my experience. Easy to flush and well balanced. Mg on the other hand lets little flies in my house. Seems they don't irradiate or kill off things like that, at least that has been my experience. I do think keeping things simple is best and you can always run two different soil setups and test for yourself. soil from Fox farm or where ever is not that expensive when you look at the hobby as a whole. Money is no object for the man in need of good weed.....:hippy: