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Bong30

08-09-2009, 02:17 PM

In 2003 Obama was quoted as saying he wants single payer Health Care.

Ok if it is single payer, doesnt that mean it lacks competition?

Forget Democrat, and Republican left, right whatever.....

It was described by Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations (1776) and later economists as allocating productive resources to their most highly-valued uses.[2] and encouraging efficiency. Later microeconomic theory distinguished between perfect competition and imperfect competition, concluding that with the no system of resource allocation is more efficient than perfect competition. Competition, according to the theory, causes commercial firms to develop new products, services and technologies, which would give consumers greater selection and better products. The greater selection typically causes lower prices for the products, compared to what the price would be if there was no competition (monopoly) or little competition (oligopoly).

Competition is best for US the consumer.

So if Competition will give us the best product (ie health care, cars, widgets) whatever...

Who is Single payer health care the best for? We know its not us!:(

delusionsofNORMALity

08-10-2009, 02:17 AM

Who is Single payer health care the best for?isn't it obvious? it's good for those too ignorant to realize that health care is a commodity just like anything else. it's good for those who seek to control another segment of the free market and place it under the thumb of a faceless government bureaucracy. for everyone else it is just another link forged in our chain of slavery to the state.

Ramulux

08-14-2009, 03:52 AM

So if Competition will give us the best product (ie health care, cars, widgets) whatever...

Who is Single payer health care the best for? We know its not us!

I would think that a single payer system would be best for anyone in this country who does not feel like funding a completely corrupt and ethically challenged industry. The health care industry in America is fucking twisted and is obviously not working in the way Adam Smith would have liked it to have run. Decent, affordable health care in this country is a myth and because of this thousands of people die every year from easily preventable illnesses. Now I believe that keeping a significant portion of this country alive and healthy is an important matter of domestic security and as such the responsibility of the federal government. I do not see what is so hard to understand about this concept. As long as the insurance companies continue to make decisions based solely on their profit margins there will never be affordable health care in this country.

I think you need to decide whether your particular political ideology is more important than the well being of your fellow country men.

Can you also please explain why single payer systems are so terrible when they work so well for every other country who uses them?

MPLSweedman

08-16-2009, 12:12 AM

a single payer system sounds like magic, and it might be if you just goto the hospital once every ten years

but take into mind all of the poor and homeless people we have, that would all of a sudden be YOUR financial responsibility!

to people who have cancer or serious illnesses that require top of the line care, they would need to be passed over to take in the hundreds and thousands of new, free patients

ALSO, think about it from a doctors point of view. doctors work their asses off in school to make themselves a successful life, hoping to all earn over $100,000 a year, now imagine barack obama showing up and saying you HAVE to treat EVERYONE for FREE... where is the motivation to ever become a doctor???

the bottom line is america is about freedom and this healthcare reform bill is about confiscating freedom.

our government cant even figure out how to hand out water bottles after a hurricane (katrina) and you think they should run healthcare? NO WAY!!!

justanotherbozo

08-16-2009, 12:53 AM

I would think that a single payer system would be best for anyone in this country who does not feel like funding a completely corrupt and ethically challenged industry. The health care industry in America is fucking twisted and is obviously not working in the way Adam Smith would have liked it to have run. Decent, affordable health care in this country is a myth and because of this thousands of people die every year from easily preventable illnesses. Now I believe that keeping a significant portion of this country alive and healthy is an important matter of domestic security and as such the responsibility of the federal government. I do not see what is so hard to understand about this concept. As long as the insurance companies continue to make decisions based solely on their profit margins there will never be affordable health care in this country.

I think you need to decide whether your particular political ideology is more important than the well being of your fellow country men.

Can you also please explain why single payer systems are so terrible when they work so well for every other country who uses them?

are there any of our Canadian brothers and sisters out there with some personal
stories about how great the Canadian healthcare system is?

...how about from the UK, would some of you fellow stoners mind sharing
some of your experiences?

and Ramulux, you should have someone explain the free enterprise system
to you. ...Competition incentivizes innovation while a lack of competition leads
to stagnation. Imagine a world where Cheerios was the only cereal there
was.

MPLSweedman

08-16-2009, 02:40 AM

Ramulux

08-16-2009, 03:16 AM

to people who have cancer or serious illnesses that require top of the line care, they would need to be passed over to take in the hundreds and thousands of new, free patients

No they wouldn't. There is nothing in the public health care option which would force terminally ill patients to be passed over. I don't know where you heard this but its not true.

ALSO, think about it from a doctors point of view. doctors work their asses off in school to make themselves a successful life, hoping to all earn over $100,000 a year, now imagine barack obama showing up and saying you HAVE to treat EVERYONE for FREE... where is the motivation to ever become a doctor???

Dude you do not understand anything about single payer systems. Doctors are not going to have to start working for free, they are simply going to be paid by the government.

the bottom line is america is about freedom and this healthcare reform bill is about confiscating freedom.

How? The health care reform bill is about providing medical care to those who cannot afford it. How in any way does this have anything to do with confiscating freedom?

and Ramulux, you should have someone explain the free enterprise system
to you. ...Competition incentivizes innovation while a lack of competition leads
to stagnation. Imagine a world where Cheerios was the only cereal there
was.

Health Care for America NOW - New Report: Private Insurance Mergers Lead to Near-Monopolies Across the Country (http://healthcareforamericanow.org/site/content/new_report_private_insurers_consolidate_and_contro l_prices)
News Flash, there isn't any real competition among Americas health insurance companies as it exists right now. They have had 80 years to develop an affordable, decent plan that could be used by those in poverty but they haven't. These companies have abused the power they have over the American people because they know we do not have a choice. A public option will create the first real spark of competition within the health care industry. When these private companies begin losing customers and realize that they can no longer get away with charging outlandish fees they will be forced onto a level playing field for the first time since their creation.

I also never meant to imply that I have something against competition. I am well aware that competition is one of the driving forces of mankind and our continued advancement as a society. But health care is not something that you can just leave up to the free market to figure out. It has been that way for a long time and it has not worked. The ability to go to the doctor is not the same as buying a box of cereal. They effect our lives in totally different ways and I think it is obvious that one is more important than the other. So while competition seems to work fairly well for the cereal industry, the health care industry has shown over and over again that they have figured out a way around the concepts put forth by Adam Smith.

are there any of our Canadian brothers and sisters out there with some personal
stories about how great the Canadian healthcare system is?

...how about from the UK, would some of you fellow stoners mind sharing
some of your experiences?

When I say that the single payer systems in countries like Canada, the Netherlands, and Taiwan work very well, I am not speaking subjectively. I am not trying to get you to believe something that may not be true. These countries health care systems work well and that is just the way it is. Now if you want first hand accounts and studies, here you go.
What is healthcare like in the Netherlands? : denialism blog (http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2009/05/what_is_healthcare_like_Neth.php)
Does Universal Health Insurance Make Health Care Unaffordable? Lessons From Taiwan -- Lu and Hsiao 22 (3): 77 -- Health Affairs (http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/full/22/3/77)
Single-Payer FAQ | Physicians for a National Health Program (http://www.pnhp.org/facts/singlepayer_faq.php#rationing)
Tome of the Unknown Writer: Health Care Stories: London, Ontario, Canada (http://bootynovelbill.blogspot.com/2009/08/health-care-stories-london-ontario.html)
Tome of the Unknown Writer: Health Care Stories: St. John, New Brunswick, Canada (http://bootynovelbill.blogspot.com/2009/08/health-care-stories-st-john-new.html)
Tome of the Unknown Writer: Health Care Stories: London, UK (http://bootynovelbill.blogspot.com/2009/08/health-care-stories-london-uk.html)
Tome of the Unknown Writer: Health Care Stories: Randers, Denmark (http://bootynovelbill.blogspot.com/2009/08/health-care-stories-randers-belgium.html)
Tome of the Unknown Writer: Health Care Stories: Madrid, Spain (http://bootynovelbill.blogspot.com/2009/08/health-care-stories-madrid-spain.html)

If you want more I am happy to provide them for you. I also want to make it clear that I am aware the health care systems in these countries are not perfect and that they do not provide the most exceptional care money can buy. They provide a basic public option to anyone who needs it and it ends up costing them less than we spend in this country.

Ramulux

08-16-2009, 03:50 AM

why do you think the british are known for having terrible teeth?

because if we had national health care here, a dentist appointment would need to be booked years in advance and most of us wouldnt even bother going just like the british...

you think it sucks to wait at the doctors office when you have an appointment now? imagine your entire city waiting for the same thing

You are absolutely right that there is a lack of dentists in England who take NHS patients. However this is a fairly new problem arising from a series of dental reforms passed in 2006 which simplified the previously complex pay structure for dentists and removed incentives for carrying out complicated surgical procedures. What this means is that the dentists in England are not being proportionately compensated by the NHS for the risks inherent in oral surgery. This in turn means that most of the dentists in England only perform complicated procedures privately, forcing those in need who cannot afford the treatment to simply go without.

However your rhetoric about having to book years in advance is just flat out not true. If you are simply looking for minimal care and service it is perfectly possible to see a dentist on fairly short notice.

Now obviously this is a problem and as I said in my previous post no health care system is perfect. Yet, Britain runs the rest of their health care system very efficiently. So that means that the British people are provided with decent health care in every area but dental services and even then it is not as if treatment is nonexistent it is simply sub par.

justanotherbozo

08-16-2009, 02:15 PM

headshake

08-16-2009, 05:57 PM

the bottom line is that if it were such a great system it would have passed already, they don't need republicans for this bill to pass. the democrats are the ones that are holding it up.

i don't even want to get started on obama and his lies. go back and watch "the distinguished gentleman" with eddie murphy. that's where barack's (or barry's) whole change campaign came from.

the government can't run the post office right. how is it that the post office is held by the government, and has every law you can think of helping them out (including a monopoly on delivering "letters) and they constantly loose money, yet fedex and ups are making profits doing the same thing? and people want the government incharge of our healthcare?

check this (http://mises.org/story/3646) article out. for all of you economists out there, check out mises.org. it's where the austrian school of economics started. very good stuff.

-shake

eastbaygordo

08-16-2009, 06:11 PM

If you believe the GOP lies about how health care will be worse, I'll sell you the Golden Gate Bridge....cheap.

Health care is the next looming bubble that will let the rich redistribute money from poor and middle class to their pockets.

The past eight years have been nothing but lies, torture, illegal spying, wars based on ego, and rich getting richer and bailed out after they lost our money. Wake up, these are the same people who profit from our loss, you can't believe their lies.

headshake

08-16-2009, 06:37 PM

i found it interesting that 1% of the country has 50% of the wealth. time for a revolution!

-shake

justanotherbozo

08-16-2009, 07:11 PM

Ramulux

08-16-2009, 09:53 PM

if the government gets involved it will be the biggest dog in the fight, which
will drive private insurance company's out of business which will inevitably
lead to a single payer system, something that goes against everything this
country stands for and everything that makes us great.

First of all, you obviously did not read any of the information which you asked for and I provided for you. If government involvement in the health care system leads to private insurance companies going out of business, then how come the Netherlands have such a thriving private insurance industry? I do not know how to have a debate about this subject if you are not going to actually look at the facts that I provide and offer some sort of rational counter argument.

YouTube - RONALD REAGAN Exposes OBAMA'S Socialist HealthCare Scheme @ AARP TownHall Meeting!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYIkmUX7mrw)

You are really going to have to come up with something better than this. This is just a video of soundbites from "Ronald Reagan speaks out against socialized medicine" imposed over an Obama town hall meeting. Now I have already listened to the entire album before and everything he says is just reused republican talking points that have been debunked for decades. Ronald Reagan is one of the most twisted, horrible motherfuckers to ever walk this planet and the economic reforms he put in place are still fucking this country over. Now I have already addressed most of his points in my previous post but if there is anything in particular you would like to discuss I would be more than happy to.

YouTube - Liberals are dishonest in health care reform debate... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-oK3OaVzuk)

The first thing I want to make clear is that the current legislation proposed by Obama is not perfect. I myself have some problems with it and am not opposed to taking a little more time and working out the details. If we are going to have real health care reform in this country it is going to need to be done right or not at all. So as it stands right now, I agree with many of the progressive congressman opposing the current plan because it is not substantial enough. I will also not even attempt to defend some of these "blue dogs" who are impeding the process not out of any rational disagreement with the plan, but simply because their election campaigns were funded with millions of dollars in insurance money.

YouTube - A Short Course in Brain Surgery (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_Rf42zNl9U)

What is important to remember is that the current health care reforms are not going to turn us into Canada. Obama is not going to outlaw private medical practices. We are not all going to have to be on a government health care plan. If you want to pay to see a doctor sooner that is perfectly possible. Now on my previous post I posted a similar story about a Canadian in need of an MRI who received it within a perfectly reasonable amount of time. I also made it clear in my previous posts that these systems are not perfect. No government is going to be able to provide world class health care whenever anyone needs it, for free. When you are giving an entire country free health care there are obviously going to be waiting periods. There are only so many doctors. However, I will admit that I do feel sympathy for this man and his situation. I also wont deny that this is an example of how the Canadian health care system is not perfect. But this does not change the fact that the vast majority of Canadian citizens are capable of visiting a doctor without ridiculous waiting lists for free.

YouTube - ObamaCare Yay Or Nay? The Truth About Canada! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2jijuj1ysw)

I don't even know what you want me to say about this because there are so many elements about this video that are total bullshit. But I guess I will try.
1. Nothing that happens in this video doesn't happen in America.
2. I am sure people who cannot afford medical care do not have a problem waiting a few hours considering if they didn't have government care they would "never" see a doctor.
3. These guys bitch about not being being able to get a blood test for no reason.
4. They go to a gigantic hospital on a "Sunday" and are surprised when they have to wait in line for a few hours.
5. The hundreds and hundreds of Canadians commenting about how they have never experienced anything like what happens to this guy.

YouTube - Townhall Protest - George Fights with Obama Supporters (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzEbW29WfW4)

This dudes a fucking moron. If there is any particular point you want me to address, let me know because this guy has no idea what hes talking about.

YouTube - Ron Paul slams Obama's plan for socialized healthcare reform on CNN (6/15/09) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Mo0Wt2fums)

I have a great deal of respect for Ron Paul and I agree with many of his policies and ideas but I obviously disagree with him in regard to what form of government best suits this country. You picked a really bad segment with him because all the points he makes I have already addressed in one way or another. I am really disappointed to see Ron Paul spouting out talking points like this and kind of wish I had never seen this clip.

the bottom line is that if it were such a great system it would have passed already, they don't need republicans for this bill to pass. the democrats are the ones that are holding it up.

The democrats holding up the process aren't real democrats. They are pro-business moderates whose campaigns were funded by insurance companies. Regardless of how "good" the reforms are they are not going to vote for it because if they do, they don't get reelected. As for the progressives who are against the bill I have already said that I agree with many of their complaints and have no problem with them taking the time to produce a truly comprehensive reform deal.

justanotherbozo

08-16-2009, 11:12 PM

apparently your mind is made up so there is no need confusing you
with the facts.

you go drink your kool-aid and we'll stop socialized health care.

First of all, you obviously did not read any of the information which you asked for and I provided for you. If government involvement in the health care system leads to private insurance companies going out of business, then how come the Netherlands have such a thriving private insurance industry? I do not know how to have a debate about this subject if you are not going to actually look at the facts that I provide and offer some sort of rational counter argument.

You are really going to have to come up with something better than this. This is just a video of soundbites from "Ronald Reagan speaks out against socialized medicine" imposed over an Obama town hall meeting. Now I have already listened to the entire album before and everything he says is just reused republican talking points that have been debunked for decades. Ronald Reagan is one of the most twisted, horrible motherfuckers to ever walk this planet and the economic reforms he put in place are still fucking this country over. Now I have already addressed most of his points in my previous post but if there is anything in particular you would like to discuss I would be more than happy to.

The first thing I want to make clear is that the current legislation proposed by Obama is not perfect. I myself have some problems with it and am not opposed to taking a little more time and working out the details. If we are going to have real health care reform in this country it is going to need to be done right or not at all. So as it stands right now, I agree with many of the progressive congressman opposing the current plan because it is not substantial enough. I will also not even attempt to defend some of these "blue dogs" who are impeding the process not out of any rational disagreement with the plan, but simply because their election campaigns were funded with millions of dollars in insurance money.

What is important to remember is that the current health care reforms are not going to turn us into Canada. Obama is not going to outlaw private medical practices. We are not all going to have to be on a government health care plan. If you want to pay to see a doctor sooner that is perfectly possible. Now on my previous post I posted a similar story about a Canadian in need of an MRI who received it within a perfectly reasonable amount of time. I also made it clear in my previous posts that these systems are not perfect. No government is going to be able to provide world class health care whenever anyone needs it, for free. When you are giving an entire country free health care there are obviously going to be waiting periods. There are only so many doctors. However, I will admit that I do feel sympathy for this man and his situation. I also wont deny that this is an example of how the Canadian health care system is not perfect. But this does not change the fact that the vast majority of Canadian citizens are capable of visiting a doctor without ridiculous waiting lists for free.

I don't even know what you want me to say about this because there are so many elements about this video that are total bullshit. But I guess I will try.
1. Nothing that happens in this video doesn't happen in America.
2. I am sure people who cannot afford medical care do not have a problem waiting a few hours considering if they didn't have government care they would "never" see a doctor.
3. These guys bitch about not being being able to get a blood test for no reason.
4. They go to a gigantic hospital on a "Sunday" and are surprised when they have to wait in line for a few hours.
5. The hundreds and hundreds of Canadians commenting about how they have never experienced anything like what happens to this guy.

This dudes a fucking moron. If there is any particular point you want me to address, let me know because this guy has no idea what hes talking about.

I have a great deal of respect for Ron Paul and I agree with many of his policies and ideas but I obviously disagree with him in regard to what form of government best suits this country. You picked a really bad segment with him because all the points he makes I have already addressed in one way or another. I am really disappointed to see Ron Paul spouting out talking points like this and kind of wish I had never seen this clip.

The democrats holding up the process aren't real democrats. They are pro-business moderates whose campaigns were funded by insurance companies. Regardless of how "good" the reforms are they are not going to vote for it because if they do, they don't get reelected. As for the progressives who are against the bill I have already said that I agree with many of their complaints and have no problem with them taking the time to produce a truly comprehensive reform deal.

Ramulux

08-16-2009, 11:31 PM

apparently your mind is made up so there is no need confusing you
with the facts.

you go drink your kool-aid and we'll stop socialized health care.

I'm just trying to have some sort of debate about socialized medicine and I have offered up responses to your statements and examples. Show me the facts you speak of and I can actually give some sort of response to them.

headshake

08-16-2009, 11:41 PM

The democrats holding up the process aren't real democrats. They are pro-business moderates whose campaigns were funded by insurance companies. Regardless of how "good" the reforms are they are not going to vote for it because if they do, they don't get reelected. As for the progressives who are against the bill I have already said that I agree with many of their complaints and have no problem with them taking the time to produce a truly comprehensive reform deal.

what? every democrat got campaign funds from somebody with an agenda. so we just get to pick and choose who is a "real" democrat? well if that's the case, from everything i've heard, barack has had nothing to do with the bill besides saying that he will support it. he's not been responsible for anything in the bill. how many pages is it? like 2000 or so?

can you please explain to me what a real democrat is? are they they ones who vote for bailing out large corporations with our tax dollars?

we need less government not more. currently the us is ranked 37th by the WHO on it's list of health care systems. right between costa rica and slovenia. what do you think this legislation will do to those statistics?

we are 24th in life expectancy. i believe that we are already second on the list of total health expenditure as a percent of the GDP, around 15%.

and supposedly we have the best healthcare system in the world. i hate to see what happens when the govt get's involved.

since they are taking away the incentive to be a doctor (capping pay) do you think this might have a negative impact on medicine here? perhaps they will go to other countries to practice medicine?

who's gonna pay for this? $900 billion over 10 years? supposedly there is 2/3 already accounted for by drug companies and the like. we are already in the whole. let's see the budget was, what, $4 trillion and we brought in $2.5 trillion. and barack said that it would be this way for at least the next four years. so how does this work out?

they plan on taxing small business, right? i heard the tax rate in new york was going to be 57%. (sorry, just the only figure i've heard.) so how is this good for america? isn't small business the backbone of america? we won't save them, but we save big business? why? because they are too big to fail? c'mon now. that's how capitalism works right? if you have no money you go bankrupt.

we aren't supposed to look at this as "socialized" medicine. yet they are going to fine you and throw your in jail if you don't get coverage?

well, the govt now owns 80% of AIG after giving them $85 billion (i think). the govt took over AIG with emergency powers from the GREAT DEPRESSION, over 70 years ago.

the govt owns 60% of GM.

they own numerous percentages of many banks after the "bailout" bill passed. i'm sure there is many more. they can give money to whomever they want, for whatever they want in return and don't have to tell you about any of it. the govt gave out over $800 billion in small bailouts before the "bailout" bill passed. who got that money?

the govt lied about what they were going to do with the bailout money. the original plan called for the buying of toxic assests from financial institutions "right now". once the bill passed, and the authority had been granted, the Treasurey postponed and then scrapped that plan.

the govt took over freddie mac and fannie mae, without congressional approval might i add.

sorry for the rambling there, my point is that the govt cannot be trusted. this is obvious. i think people are using the health care bill as a platform to fight against. (not those dems trying to get re-elected (including obama).) i think people are tired of being lied to and taken advantage of.

what's taken us so long to get around to healthcare anyway? how long have we been the only industrialized country to not have it? all of a sudden it's a priority.

-shake

justanotherbozo

08-16-2009, 11:55 PM

you're wasting your time shake, this guy has already made up his mind!

what? every democrat got campaign funds from somebody with an agenda. so we just get to pick and choose who is a "real" democrat? well if that's the case, from everything i've heard, barack has had nothing to do with the bill besides saying that he will support it. he's not been responsible for anything in the bill. how many pages is it? like 2000 or so?

can you please explain to me what a real democrat is? are they they ones who vote for bailing out large corporations with our tax dollars?

we need less government not more. currently the us is ranked 37th by the WHO on it's list of health care systems. right between costa rica and slovenia. what do you think this legislation will do to those statistics?

we are 24th in life expectancy. i believe that we are already second on the list of total health expenditure as a percent of the GDP, around 15%.

and supposedly we have the best healthcare system in the world. i hate to see what happens when the govt get's involved.

since they are taking away the incentive to be a doctor (capping pay) do you think this might have a negative impact on medicine here? perhaps they will go to other countries to practice medicine?

who's gonna pay for this? $900 billion over 10 years? supposedly there is 2/3 already accounted for by drug companies and the like. we are already in the whole. let's see the budget was, what, $4 trillion and we brought in $2.5 trillion. and barack said that it would be this way for at least the next four years. so how does this work out?

they plan on taxing small business, right? i heard the tax rate in new york was going to be 57%. (sorry, just the only figure i've heard.) so how is this good for america? isn't small business the backbone of america? we won't save them, but we save big business? why? because they are too big to fail? c'mon now. that's how capitalism works right? if you have no money you go bankrupt.

we aren't supposed to look at this as "socialized" medicine. yet they are going to fine you and throw your in jail if you don't get coverage?

well, the govt now owns 80% of AIG after giving them $85 billion (i think). the govt took over AIG with emergency powers from the GREAT DEPRESSION, over 70 years ago.

the govt owns 60% of GM.

they own numerous percentages of many banks after the "bailout" bill passed. i'm sure there is many more. they can give money to whomever they want, for whatever they want in return and don't have to tell you about any of it. the govt gave out over $800 billion in small bailouts before the "bailout" bill passed. who got that money?

the govt lied about what they were going to do with the bailout money. the original plan called for the buying of toxic assests from financial institutions "right now". once the bill passed, and the authority had been granted, the Treasurey postponed and then scrapped that plan.

the govt took over freddie mac and fannie mae, without congressional approval might i add.

sorry for the rambling there, my point is that the govt cannot be trusted. this is obvious. i think people are using the health care bill as a platform to fight against. (not those dems trying to get re-elected (including obama).) i think people are tired of being lied to and taken advantage of.

what's taken us so long to get around to healthcare anyway? how long have we been the only industrialized country to not have it? all of a sudden it's a priority.

-shake

Ramulux

08-17-2009, 04:48 AM

what? every democrat got campaign funds from somebody with an agenda. so we just get to pick and choose who is a "real" democrat? well if that's the case, from everything i've heard, barack has had nothing to do with the bill besides saying that he will support it. he's not been responsible for anything in the bill. how many pages is it? like 2000 or so?

can you please explain to me what a real democrat is? are they they ones who vote for bailing out large corporations with our tax dollars?

It is not about getting to pick and choose,its about acknowledging which democrats stick to their beliefs and which ones do not. In the same way, you probably don't support everyone in the republican party I do not support everyone in the democratic party.

Now listen I am not going to get into a discussion about the bailouts because we probably agree that they were a huge mistake. That money was pretty much stolen from us and handed over to the federal reserve, I am well aware of that. Being pissed off about the bailouts has nothing to do with the left or right. Providing insane amounts of money to the companies which caused all the economic problems is a bad idea regardless of where you are on the political spectrum. Any congressman or senator who voted for those bailouts are traitors to their respective political parties.

we need less government not more. currently the us is ranked 37th by the WHO on it's list of health care systems. right between costa rica and slovenia. what do you think this legislation will do to those statistics?

we are 24th in life expectancy. i believe that we are already second on the list of total health expenditure as a percent of the GDP, around 15%.

and supposedly we have the best healthcare system in the world. i hate to see what happens when the govt get's involved.

Dude, those are all examples of how our health care system as it exists right now is fucked. Those are statistics describing our "current" health care system, not what would happen if we went to a single payer system. If the government provided a public option it would revolutionize the health care industry. It would create real competition and force the insurance companies to adapt to reality. If we do not create a public option there will always be a significant percentage of our population without access to basic medical care.

since they are taking away the incentive to be a doctor (capping pay) do you think this might have a negative impact on medicine here? perhaps they will go to other countries to practice medicine?

Private insurance companies do the exact same thing. If a doctor submits a claim for insurance reimbursement they are paid according to the pay rates set forth by the insurance company. That is all the government is doing. These rates put forth by the government are also generally in line with the standard market cost for health care services.

who's gonna pay for this? $900 billion over 10 years? supposedly there is 2/3 already accounted for by drug companies and the like. we are already in the whole. let's see the budget was, what, $4 trillion and we brought in $2.5 trillion. and barack said that it would be this way for at least the next four years. so how does this work out?

Like you said, 2/3 is already paid for and the other third is gonna be spread out over ten years. So that is $300 billion for the most comprehensive social reform in our history. A reform that is going to provide every child born in this country with the ability to go to the doctor regardless of their parents income bracket. That is a beautiful fucking thing and you are bitching about $300 billion. We just had over a trillion dollars literally stolen from us in these bailouts. That is a trillion dollars that none of us are ever going to get back. But now we have a chance to spend $300 billion on something that is going to benefit millions and millions of people in profound ways, and you have a problem with that. The tax increases that have been proposed so far do not effect anyone making less than $350,00 a year and are pretty minor.

they plan on taxing small business, right? i heard the tax rate in new york was going to be 57%. (sorry, just the only figure i've heard.) so how is this good for america? isn't small business the backbone of america? we won't save them, but we save big business? why? because they are too big to fail? c'mon now. that's how capitalism works right? if you have no money you go bankrupt.

we aren't supposed to look at this as "socialized" medicine. yet they are going to fine you and throw your in jail if you don't get coverage?

This proposal you are talking about has nothing to do with small businesses. This would impose a surtax of 1% on couples making $350,00 to $500,000, 1.5% between $500,000 and $1 million, and 5% for couples making over $1 million. This is also just a proposal and it was introduced a while ago so I do not think it ended up turning into anything.

I had also heard about how Massachusetts had begun fining residents for not purchasing health care, but that is under the current private system. However, I had not heard that you would be fined if you did not accept coverage with the public option. I do not really see how that would work but if you could provide some sources I would appreciate it because I cannot find any information about this.

headshake

08-17-2009, 06:24 PM

have you read the bill? it's over 2000 pages long. and i heard about the new york tax for example the day that the president gave his speech about the healthcare reforms.

by the way, i'm not democrat or republican. i'm a best person for the job man.

if they fucked up the economy why do you think they can fix health care? look at the post office for example. the post office is nothing but a money drain. they are trying to take another day of the week off. and even with every law they want/need on their side the post office can't compete with ups or fedex (which are both profitable by the way).

do we need health care reforms, of course, but that's not the way to do it. i bet you also believe that the govt will sell their stock in the companies it bailed out too?

if you think shit's not about to hit the fan and you want to live in a world full of dillusions fine.

you probably don't believe that the barack administration wants to station 400,000 troops on the streets of the us. you can check it out here (http://www.progressive.org/wx081209b.html).

-shake

carinia

08-17-2009, 09:58 PM

to get back to the original question, I just wanted to point out that in single payer systems they introduce competition in different ways. Instead of how much a dr can make by endorsing a certain drug, he gets paid more from the gvt by lowering your blood pressure, getting you to quit smoking, having reg check ups..

So there is competition in single payer systems between dr's and medical companies, but the flow of wealth is not one designed to increase a share holder's wealth, but instead to the dr that does the best job. ;)

MPLSweedman

08-17-2009, 10:00 PM

liberals listen to me

if its passed, private health insurance will NO LONGER exist, there will be no choice but the government insurance (Freedom lost)

if obama really wants to be cost-effective with healthcare, why doesnt he ask the 13,000,000 illegal aliens to get the F*CK out because we are in over our heads

socialism is NOT the answer

you honestly believe doctors will be refunded 100% of what they are truly owed???!

did you know that of all the cash for clunkers cars, the government only paid out 2% of those $4500 checks to dealerships? the other 98% is eaten by the dealers, thanks government

the government is NOT THE ANSWER TO OUR PROBLEMS. IT IS OUR PROBLEM

WE RUN THIS COUNTRY, DONT GIVE OUR POWERS AWAY

carinia

08-17-2009, 10:18 PM

OMG this arguement is so funny. I like Justanotherboos videos. Like that one about the MRI when the couple ciomplains about having to mortgage the house so they can afford to go to america to get a MRI, when 45% of all bankruptcies in America are due to medical bills! HAH! They even got to keep their house! Jerks.

I know Im firmly on Romulux's side here but honestly, dont post any more information you naysayer's that proves our point right. Hilarious.

Headshake,the post office runs a publiv service. Thats all it is, kinda like health care. Also I like the post office, I sell books online and they always have the cheapest rates (yay media mail!), to help out my small business. ;)

Oh and the statistics on our WHO rating is funny to, since most of the countries in front of us have socialized health care, and most of the countries behind us have private insurance - or relief aid.

Oh, and Headshake, the article you just posted is actually a continuation from a Bush law which designates that exact amount of troops for a terrorist attack, or WMD, OR threatening the use of one. So, the pentagon is extending it for other disaster's - hurricanes, floods, fires. I'm not sure why this is a point in your argument, but you better start it with Bush since he made up the law first.

Haha ok, im done. Thanks for making me laugh. :)

headshake

08-17-2009, 10:44 PM

Headshake,the post office runs a publiv service. Thats all it is, kinda like health care. Also I like the post office, I sell books online and they always have the cheapest rates (yay media mail!), to help out my small business. ;)

and isn't health care for everyone a public service? ok, so the post office gives you the cheapest bill. but because they LOSE money, someone has to make that up. where do you suppose that money comes from? the TAXPAYERS! (if you pay taxes that's you too.) I'm not asking for the post office to turn a profit, but how about they just break even?

this is the same govt that you are asking to run health care. so how is this supposed to work? the fact that ups and fedex both are profitable and private, while the post office is a money suck controlled by the govt.

what do you think is going to happen to insurance? competition? yeah right!

i'm not saying the way it is now is working. i'm simply saying what they propose is not the answer.

Oh and the statistics on our WHO rating is funny to, since most of the countries in front of us have socialized health care, and most of the countries behind us have private insurance - or relief aid.

and from what i've been reading/hearing a lot of those countries aren't doing so hot. brittan, spain, norway or sweeden (i can't remember).

Oh, and Headshake, the article you just posted is actually a continuation from a Bush law which designates that exact amount of troops for a terrorist attack, or WMD, OR threatening the use of one. So, the pentagon is extending it for other disaster's - hurricanes, floods, fires. I'm not sure why this is a point in your argument, but you better start it with Bush since he made up the law first.

Haha ok, im done. Thanks for making me laugh. :)

you're right, it is from bush. i never said otherwise. but it's currently the barack administration that is continuing along these lines. they could change course if they wanted to. the point is that the government interference with anything is bad. the less govt the better.

they are using these platforms to TAKE MINE AND YOUR RIGHTS away. if you think otherwise you are sadly mistaken.

and the funny thing is you would think it would the the right wing republicans that would be trying to make these changes, but in truth it's the democrats.

you can think whatever you want. i know i'll be ready when the revolution comes. will you?

-shake

carinia

08-17-2009, 10:52 PM

Oh yeah I got the batcave ready! Funny, I think the apocalypse (or revolution, however it fits) is coming too, but I dont think it will be socialized medicine that does it. ;)

Mississippi Steve

08-17-2009, 10:58 PM

Y'all can say waht you want... I am *STILL* waiting for the *FREE* medical and dental that was promised the US military vets, and retirees when we enlisted in the first place.

As far as that goes, NO military retiree should ever have to pay federal income tax again, ever!!

Thats the least they can do for those of us who sacrificed 20+ years of our lives in the service of our country, instead of providing all those benifits to all of the ILLEGAL ALIENS in the US.

headshake

08-17-2009, 11:27 PM

Oh yeah I got the batcave ready! Funny, I think the apocalypse (or revolution, however it fits) is coming too, but I dont think it will be socialized medicine that does it. ;)

once again, it's not socialized medicine that will be the turning point. it's merely a step in the wrong direction. it's the govt interfering with our lives. we need less govt, not more. how much money do they waste? for what? protecting our freedoms? you and i both know that's not the case.

i do think there needs to be health care reform. i actually think we need to start over back at the constitution......but how likely is that to happen....until we make it!

i hear ya loud and clear steve!

-shake

McDanger

08-18-2009, 01:27 AM

If you believe the GOP lies about how health care will be worse, I'll sell you the Golden Gate Bridge....cheap.

Health care is the next looming bubble that will let the rich redistribute money from poor and middle class to their pockets.:S4:

The past eight years have been nothing but lies, torture, illegal spying, wars based on ego, and rich getting richer and bailed out after they lost our money. Wake up, these are the same people who profit from our loss, you can't believe their lies.:postexcuseme:
After you were dumb enough to buy the bridge, now you want somebody dumber than you. NOT

McDanger

08-18-2009, 01:49 AM

Private insurance companies do the exact same thing. If a doctor submits a claim for insurance reimbursement they are paid according to the pay rates set forth by the insurance company. That is all the government is doing. These rates put forth by the government are also generally in line with the standard market cost for health care services.

Like you said, 2/3 is already paid for and the other third is gonna be spread out over ten years. So that is $300 billion for the most comprehensive social reform in our history. A reform that is going to provide every child born in this country with the ability to go to the doctor regardless of their parents income bracket. That is a beautiful fucking thing and you are bitching about $300 billion. We just had over a trillion dollars literally stolen from us in these bailouts. That is a trillion dollars that none of us are ever going to get back. But now we have a chance to spend $300 billion on something that is going to benefit millions and millions of people in profound ways, and you have a problem with that. The tax increases that have been proposed so far do not effect anyone making less than $350,00 a year and are pretty minor.

This proposal you are talking about has nothing to do with small businesses. This would impose a surtax of 1% on couples making $350,00 to $500,000, 1.5% between $500,000 and $1 million, and 5% for couples making over $1 million. This is also just a proposal and it was introduced a while ago so I do not think it ended up turning into anything.

I had also heard about how Massachusetts had begun fining residents for not purchasing health care, but that is under the current private system. However, I had not heard that you would be fined if you did not accept coverage with the public option. I do not really see how that would work but if you could provide some sources I would appreciate it because I cannot find any information about this.
If you have not heard of that then you did not read the bill that the house committee passed. You MUST buy into the public option if you do not have insurance. It is not free.
Maybe if the feds allowed the "evil" insurance companies to sell insurance across state lines like every other product or service there would be some competition. Tort reform would do far more to reduce costs than any other reform the people that brought us this problem could come up with.

rebgirl420

08-18-2009, 01:51 AM

once again, it's not socialized medicine that will be the turning point. it's merely a step in the wrong direction. it's the govt interfering with our lives. we need less govt, not more. how much money do they waste? for what? protecting our freedoms? you and i both know that's not the case.
i do think there needs to be health care reform. i actually think we need to start over back at the constitution......but how likely is that to happen....until we make it!

i hear ya loud and clear steve!

-shake

I agree.

We need insurance reform but big government is not the answer. The government can't even fix the roads, why should we let them take control of our health care?

delusionsofNORMALity

08-19-2009, 02:27 AM

Though Iâ??d agree that government has shown itself incapable of successfully running anything larger than a lemonade stand without totally screwing the pooch, that is hardly the most important reason to avoid the single payer fiasco. Many of the particulars of the proposed plan may be nothing more than barely disguised eugenics experiments, but that is of no more importance than government's history of incompetence. these details are merely the trees obscuring our view of the forest and, though they may make great fodder for discussion, we shouldn't get too involved with such minutiae. The greatest reason for keeping the state's greedy mitts off of health care is that it is not government's place to engage in the daily care and feeding of its citizens. Government is not the father figure so many of us seem to desire. It is not the doting mother that is there to see to our every need. It is more the slightly aloof uncle, there to keep us from decimating each other and to see that the family picnics don't get too far out of hand.

The founders of this country were well aware of the dangers of an all-powerful government and went to great pains to insure the rights of the individual against the aggressions of the state. The bill of rights is less a list of the rights of the citizens than a list of limitations on the ways in which government may intrude on our natural rights. The tenth amendment is little quoted, but I feel you should all take a good look at it - The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. The powers of government that strive for total control have spent a great deal of time and energy perverting the meaning of such words, by amending the document to suit their totalitarian aims or through various other means, but of utmost importance are those last four words - "or to the people". The individual is the final arbiter of his own fate. Each man and woman is responsible for their own decisions and well-being, each citizenâ??s natural rights limited only by the most basic needs of living within a society.

Itâ??s all so simple and so elegant. An entire society built on the premise of the supremacy of the rights of the individual, with government as nothing more than a loose web that ties the entire thing together and protects its integrity. For over two centuries we have complicated our existence and, with each complication, have bound ourselves more firmly to a bureaucracy intent on turning those gossamer strings to chains. The individual has been replaced by special interest groups, government has experienced unbridled growth in both size and power, and our own greed threatens to enslave us to a nanny-state from which there is no release. The ballot box has become a lie as our servants in government blithely push forward their own agendas, regardless of the wishes of their constituents, and the population has become complacent in the myth of our superiority. We have become blind to the basic premise that each man, as an individual, holds sole responsibility for his fate.

Now we are faced with the prospect of another leap in the size and power of the ever growing bureaucracy, governmentâ??s annexation of another segment of the free market which is the domain of the individual. Instead of sensible and equitably enforced regulation, many would have us jump head first into a government monopoly of this sizeable chunk of our economy. Instead of allowing a market determined by the people to adjust a haywire industry, our well stoked fears of evil corporations and big business are guiding us into another trap to limit our options and further embolden the totalitarian tendencies of the governmental monster. After all, what industry can compete with an entity that has no need to show a profit and finds a nearly unlimited source of capital in the pockets of its taxpayers? Whether we want to admit it or not, those corporate entities we take such pleasure in denigrating are made up of the individuals our government is pledged to protect and those businesses are the outcome of the effort and risk of individuals attempting to fill a need within our society. To sweep all that away and replace it with a government monopoly runs contrary to the concepts of liberty this country was founded to defend.

Of course there have been abuses within such a complex and far reaching industry. The concept of greed is far from foreign to humanity, but it is a part of governmentâ??s duty to see that the greed of one does not infringe on the rights of another. Instead of guarding the society from that greed, we find that our representatives have been complicit at most every step and now that the mess they have helped create has become critical, they are conveniently there with plans that can only further reduce our freedom of choice and indebt us to the not so tender care of the nanny-state. We should not be so blind as to excuse the part these political animals have played by handing them even more control over our daily lives.

Esoteric416

08-19-2009, 01:01 PM

Ok I get the idea that if the Gov starts an insurance company up that it will likely be just as inefficient as the post office and operate at a loss the same way. That's a good point.
I just read thousands of words arguing against the single payer plan, but if that option is no good then what would be the alternative? I don't think it can be reasonably argued that our current system is acceptable. The only statement that provided an idea for a different approach was that we should allow insurance to be sold across state lines to foster competition, (can't remember who said it) aside from that you guys are using alot of words to very passionately and eloquently say "NO" over and over again.
I'm not very knowlegable about the healthcare system and how insurance companies work, but right now the only competition between these companies seems to be who can more effectively deny coverage to the sick. :(
How about some alternative ideas to the single payer system if its such a bad idea.

drudown11

08-19-2009, 10:06 PM

single payer healthcare is awesome if your a part of one of two groups

1. your a jobless, homeless, drug addicted, lazy, or just god damn worthless person on welfare who wants other people to pay for you to go to the doctor.

you know whos gunna pay for this single payer healthcare? the responsible people with jobs who don't fucking need it.

2. YOUR A GOD DAMN SOCIALIST OR COMMUNIST WHO LIKES TO HAVE THE GOVERNMENT TELL YOU WHERE TO GO, WHEN TO GO, AND HOW TO FUCKING DO IT.

Esoteric416

08-20-2009, 09:38 AM

I can't understand the attitude some of you have expressed here about how the government is going to force everyone to use their insurance.
I've seen the example of the post office as being the reason a Gov run insurance company is a bad idea. But even with the post office around we still have Fed-Ex and UPS, and untill recently DHL, yet most of you guys seem to think that a Gov insurance will be the only option if it's implemented.
What's more the attitude seems to be that we will all be FORCED to use the Gov insurance.

From drudown11:
"2. YOUR A GOD DAMN SOCIALIST OR COMMUNIST WHO LIKES TO HAVE THE GOVERNMENT TELL YOU WHERE TO GO, WHEN TO GO, AND HOW TO FUCKING DO IT."
How is this much different from the current system? When I jacked my back up at work I had to conform to my company insurance regulations. I had to go to their chiropractor and could not see my own doctor (or at least those visits were not covered) and some medications were not approved by my company insurance so I was told what to ingest as well. :wtf:

I'm still not saying that the single payer plan is the best idea, but both here and in the public town halls all I hear is people loudly complaining that they don't want the Gov running their healthcare, I have yet to hear a single alternative idea.
How about the Gov asks each state to write up a plan of their own in cooperation with the state citizens and healthcare providers. Those plans could all be looked at and we could pick out all the good ideas to add to an overall federal insurance plan. If the federal plan is no good for you then maybe we could keep the local state plans in place for more options.
Well at least theres an idea. A good idea? Not sure, but it's something.

carinia

08-20-2009, 11:53 AM

justanotherbozo

08-20-2009, 01:24 PM

I've been pretty quiet the past few days because this is such a personal argument for me. I lost my job in April, (where I was paying 60 bucks every week for my husband and I) and was planning to go to COBRA, at a cost of 1600 a month for just myself and not my husband. That was way more than unemployment! Now Im working for a non profit its 310 a paycheck for half the coverage I did have. My sister is paying 600 every two week through her job, and because of her pre existing conditions she is exempt from coverage from almost everything.

I just want something affordable, so if the hubby's back goes out, were not sitting on a 900 MRI bill. So that if I get pregnant, I don't have to worry about how much the hospital stay is going to be. (Which is funny, since they don't pay for birth control OR for pregnancy) I don't mind paying in, but I want it to be fair; at least equal access! I don't like having options about what I would like to give up health wise so we can pay the mortgage.

And we are a normal family. My hubby and I, to quote drudown, are not lazy, we're not homeless (still have to pay the mortgage), I do like pot but whose to say anything about addicts there?, and for fucking sure we're not a worthless. I just want an option where my family is covered; without having to worry about what is exempt, and without having to pay 70% of our pay each month in taxes and health care costs.

There are a lot of things that could be done with this health care bill, but its going to end with a lot of pork. I honestly am SICK of the people who are turning it into an arguement about how bad the "plan" is. Shut up and come up with an IDEA already. The fact is the government is the only entity that can fix the system, so instead of flaming on a cannabis board that no government official is going to read anyway maybe you should go protest or write someone or something. Go do something constructive.

many ideas have been put forth that the lunatic left won't listen to, like
TORT reform, they don't want to discuss that because that would limit
lawyers and all the assholes in congress are lawyers themselves.

and competition, the government could allow competition between company's
over state lines, so people like you could buy the best policy available and
not be forced into the position you are in by the government. ...and don't
kid yourself into thinking that the 'public' option will promote competition,
it will kill competition instead!

and what about lifetime ownership of your own health insurance policy,
rather than that policy belonging to your employer. ...that way, you
start your policy when you are young and healthy and the premiums
are way low, then, if you change jobs for whatever reason, you take
your policy with you to the next job.

so there are a couple of ideas that are better than a government option,
and i'm just an old stoner, imagine the ideas i'd come up with if i were
in a position to make millions, like David Axelrod! ...oh, wait a minute,
his idea is to rob you of your freedom so he can make money!

the reason people seem so angry is because of morons like Barney
Frank and Nancy Pelosi shoving a government option down our throats!

the current administration has tripled the deficit and is still blaming Bush!

frankly, i don't trust any politician, they are all prostitutes in suits and i
am unwilling to trust them to do the right thing when they have proven
so often that all they care about is getting re-elected!

btw, did you see Barney Frank at his town meeting? ...did you see how he
treated his own constituents? ...frankly, i'm surprised he was ever elected, the
ignorant fuck!

this administration is quietly stripping us of all our freedoms and soon, we
won't be living in a free country any more, we'll be living in the United States
of Obama! ...and there might be no going back!

delusionsofNORMALity

08-20-2009, 01:46 PM

There are a lot of things that could be done with this health care bill, but its going to end with a lot of pork.aside from the basic ideological argument against socialized medicine, this is the fundamental flaw in any step that takes any industry out of the private sector and places it into the hands of the state. CORRUPTION. while corruption is not the sole property of political animals, it is far more prevalent and harder to root out wherever they have the most power. trading influence for the support of backers and favors for votes, the denizens of the governmental bureaucracy have turned the concept of public service into nothing more than a power grab and the public welfare into an excuse to create unwieldy and nearly opaque fiefdoms. "health care reform" is a misnomer, carefully crafted to give the people a scapegoat to vent their frustration upon.

true reform would begin with the root causes for the high cost of health care. multi-million dollar payouts for medical errors, nonsensical and unevenly applied regulation, and a culture that esteems doctors and lawyers with near reverence and awe. activist judges, pushing an agenda of wealth redistribution, and bleeding heart juries, hoping that theirs may be the next big payoff, cost the industry billions of dollars in extravagant judgments and the necessary malpractice protection for simple human error and that can't help but be reflected in our medical bills and the general attitude of the industry. lawyers get rich on both sides of such audacious and often frivolous lawsuits and, with a government run by and beholden to the legal profession, no one is in any great hurry to do anything about it. the general public, caught up in the fervor of entitlement and the new american dream of something for nothing, must reassess the concept of fault and quit blaming the wealthy for the plight of the poor, but such a paradigm shift can never occur as long as we are so willingly hypnotized by the blame laying of self-serving politicians and their media lap dogs.

ultimately, it is the people themselves that are to blame for this so-called health care crisis. the greed created by a sense of entitlement to all the best and an apathy that leads to buck passing has stripped us of our power within the marketplace. the people are not entitled to medical care, merely to access to that care. we do not support those who spend years of their lives training to enter the medical profession, so we must pay them for that effort at whatever price the market will bear. we cannot expect the animals of government to force an industry to conform to standards that we do not demand they conform to themselves.

delusionsofNORMALity

08-20-2009, 01:59 PM

this administration is quietly stripping us of all our freedoms and soon, we won't be living in a free country any more, we'll be living in the United States of Obama! ...and there might be no going back!once again, blaming an administration instead of our own apathy and greed. the people placed these fools in power, in hopes of the great something for nothing, and they have only themselves to blame for the loss of liberty that ensues. just as baby bush and company and those before them were allowed to strip us of our rights, so too are we allowing this current crop of thieves to chain us to their idea of the perfect society and emasculate the constitution. our own greed has led us to this sorry pass and continues to degrade this experiment in liberty into a nation of willing slaves and condescending masters.

it makes me kinds glad i'll soon be dead and won't have to watch us fritter away our freedoms for the illusions of comfort and security.

McDanger

08-20-2009, 04:06 PM

savage7garden

08-20-2009, 07:56 PM

if not,
you can read it here: Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress) (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3200)

PAGE 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!

PAGE 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!

PAGE 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals proccess)

PAGE 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. YOU will have NO choice. None.

PAGE 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.

PAGE 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.

PAGE 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

PAGE 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW, and ACORN)

PAGE 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.

PAGE 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange. (i.e., total government control of private plans)

PAGE 91: Goverment mandates linguistic infrastructure for services: translation: illegal aliens

PAGE 95: The Goverment will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government run Health Care plan.

PAGE 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.

PAGE 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insureers will be crushed.

PAGE 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.

PAGE 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.

PAGE 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.

PAGE 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400k or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll.

PAGE 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250-400k, who does not offer the public option pays a 2-6% tax on payroll.

PAGE 167: Any individual who doesn't have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.

PAGE 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them)

PAGE 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.

PAGE 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as a tax." YES IT REALLY SAYS THAT

PAGE 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and poor will be most affected.

PAGE 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same.

PAGE 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.

PAGE 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.

PAGE 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

PAGE 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the world of rationed healthcare.

PAGE 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions. ( can any of you see this leading to a refusal to treat?)

PAGE 298: Doctors if you treat a patient during an intital admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.

PAGE 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited from owning and investing in healthcare companies.

PAGE 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.

PAGE 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input; in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.

PAGE 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures; i.e., rationing.

PAGE 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMO's, etc.

PAGE 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.

PAGE 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone)

PAGE 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Goverment provides Senior Citizens with approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death; assisted suicide, euthanasia. (Hitler called his end-of-life plan the 'Final Solution')

PAGE 427: Goverment madates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.

PAGE 429: Advanc Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.

PAGE 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.

PAGE 469: Community based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.

PAGE 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.

PAGE 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervens in your marriage.

PAGE 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating, and rationing those services.

As any rational person can see, this system has potential for a LOOOOONG list of abuses (aside from the obvious ones that exist from the get go).

ya, single payer~ anyone out there still LOOOOVE Obama? are you still gonna love him when his plan results in the premature death of your parents or grandparents? or how about the denial of treatment for your special needs child or child with cancer? this system is only the beginning.

those of you who haven't already REALLY need to research what you can about the NEW WORLD ORDER, the AMERO, the North American Union, the RFID chip.....God help us all

yokinazu

08-21-2009, 01:22 AM

McDanger

08-21-2009, 01:49 AM

ok i have to give my take on the whole health care issue. i do not want socialism. i like my freedom. but i been almost 10 years with NO health care what so ever and i would give anything to know that if im injured i will get treated. but right now if i am injured om the job, first i get to go to an emergancy room where i MIGHT get decent treatment, loose my job then go into bankrupcy from not bein able to pay my bills.

my theory is this let congress go without their health benifits till they figure out how to give me mine. im payin for it why not with hold theirs till i get mine.

myt point is for alot of us some health care is better then none.

If you get hurt on the job, workmans comp is what pays, 100%. This has nothing to do with the current debate and will not change at all under the current proposals that I have seen.

savage7garden

08-21-2009, 03:31 PM

ok i have to give my take on the whole health care issue. i do not want socialism. i like my freedom. but i been almost 10 years with NO health care what so ever and i would give anything to know that if im injured i will get treated. but right now if i am injured om the job, first i get to go to an emergancy room where i MIGHT get decent treatment, loose my job then go into bankrupcy from not bein able to pay my bills.

my theory is this let congress go without their health benifits till they figure out how to give me mine. im payin for it why not with hold theirs till i get mine.

myt point is for alot of us some health care is better then none.

You got it all wrong. Our founding fathers KNEW the dangers, which is why our Constitution was written the way it was. History is repeating itself due to attitudes such as yours. It can lead to nothing good!! Don't take my word for it, read up on History and see for yourself.

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither. ~ Benjamin Franklin

headshake

08-21-2009, 05:37 PM

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither. ~ Benjamin Franklin

AMEN!

i don't get why a lot of you are missing the point. yes, we need some type of health care reform. do we need it as it is currently proposed? no. this is merely a ploy to take our rights away....all in the name of what's best for the people. why does the govt need real-time access to our bank accounts? do you guys want that? i don't. there are many other crazy things going on in this bill. all you naysayers need to check your facts.

it's amazing how a few words such as "health care for everyone" can make people give up their liberties and freedoms. our forefathers are rolling over in their graves.

yes, our forefathers knew something would go awry in the future of the country. that IS the reason that the constitution is written the way it is (you are right savage).

in case some of your guys can't figure it out, let me spell it out for you:

OUR GOVT DOES NOT CARE ABOUT US, NOR DO THEY HAVE OUR BEST INTERESTS AT HEART!!!

savage, i've read a lot of the bill. you can find postings like the one you put up on all over the internet that picks the bill apart.

people keep arguing, saying that this is not socialism, that this is not where it's heading. what do you call it then when the people, who are the supposed empowered ones in a country give their rights to a select few and that select few makes decisions for you (in what will soon be every aspect of your life)? well actually, it's communism, which is preceded by socialism.

socialism- a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

(in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

communism- a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.

check out the "10 Planks of the Communist Manifesto" and how they apply in america.

THE TEN STEPS OF KARL MARX (With my comments interspersed). Taken from the Communist Manifesto

1) Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

We already have this in America. Through property taxes we have been made serfs on our own land. Through tyrannical zoning laws, wetlands regulations, EPA regulations, etc., we no longer control our lands. Our once strong private property rights have been abolished through regulatory oppression, bureaucratic tyranny and unbiblical types of taxation.

2) A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

We already have this in America. The higher your income, the higher the tax bracket you are placed in for purposes of calculating your tax bill. This is completely evil and unBiblical. The Bible Teaches us the principle of the Flat Tax when it requires that everyone is to pay a Tithe (1/10) of their produce to the Lord. God did not say that the poor only pay 5% and the wealthy are to pay 25%. God said everyone rich or poor, pays the same percentage. Why do liberals pretend to want to tax the wealthy more? Because it advances their program for fomenting class envy and class warfare. Divide and conquer, that is the strategy of the evil communist liberals who are wrecking America with ever higher taxes and increasingly bigger government.

3) Abolition of all right of inheritance.

We already have this in America. The inheritance taxes are astronomically high and this is just plain evil. The Bible says in Proverbs 13:22 that "A good man leaves an inheritance to his children's children, and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just." Liberals want to destroy the family because strong families do not need socialism or government give away programs. Liberals want to destroy the ability of strong families to perpetuate the influence of their progeny by stealing half of their net worth through the imposition of confiscatory inheritance tax rates.

4) Confiscation of the property of emigrants and rebels.

We already have this in America. You have heard about "FORFEITURE LAWS." Many branches of local, state and federal law enforcement agencies and regulatory agencies are confiscating property, goods and money without a trial, without due process, etc. This is a perfect tool for the tyrant bureaucrat who wants to make your life hell. If you are not "Politically Correct" liberals will use these laws to harass you and confiscate your property.

5) Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

We already have this in America. It is called the Federal Reserve Bank. This is the single most evil, deadly and damaging of the 10 Planks of Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto. The counterfeit paper debt based monetary scheme that we now suffer is going to destroy our Republic, our liberty and our economy. The Federal Reserve System is an exclusive monopoly. The Federal Reserve is not a branch of the Federal Government and it does not have any reserves of Gold or Silver coin backing their "Federal Reserve Notes." Federal Reserve Notes are counterfeit Money, fiat money. The Federal Reserve controls our economy through it's monopolistic control of interest rates. We have a 20 Trillion Dollar Debt pyramid in this nation and one day it is all going to come crashing down. When it does crash, the bankers who gave us nothing more than paper money will repossess and confiscate nearly every home, business, farm, vehicle and all property in America that has a mortgage or outstanding balance on it. On that day you should take you gun out and kill as many communist liberals as you can find.

6) Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

Communists, Socialists and Liberals have worked very hard to exercise complete control over the media via the FCC and monopolistic media mogul billionaires. At this time they control 90 to 95% of the media that the masses turn to for information. But the free press has proved more resilient than our enemies planned and the Internet is really upsetting their apple-cart. As for their efforts to centralize transportation, liberals are very anxious to force us all to use state run mass transit trains, subways and car pooling schemes. Thus we can see how the enemies of liberty have very nearly achieved their goal of fully implementing the sixth plank of the communist manifesto.

7) Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State, the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

American Communists, Socialists and Liberals have worked very hard to force central planning on farmers. They have been very successful through the use farm subsidies and regulations at destroying the small independent family owned farm. Today instead of family farms our nations food supply is produced and controlled by huge corporations and this is called "agri-business." This destruction of the family owned farms was not an accident of history, rather it was done by design. American Communists, Socialists and Liberals have worked very hard to force central planning on the manufacturing sector. By imposing millions of regulations on every minute aspect of business, they have either driven the small independent factories out of business or forced them to sell out to one of the large multi-national mega-corporations. Only the large corporations have the capability, the man-power to research and obey all of the millions of federal regulations. This destruction of the family owned factories was not an accident of history, rather it was done by design. Again we can see how the enemies of liberty have very nearly achieved their goal of fully implementing the seventh plank of the communist manifesto.

8) Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

American Communists, Socialists and Liberals have worked very hard to pass federal legislation to implement the goals of this Plank of Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto. So called "industrial armies" in modern parlance are known as Unions. The collection by "force" of Union Dues, from the employees who are subject to Forced Unionism, has been devastating to the political process in America. Every Union without exception supports left wing candidates with both money and man-power. As to the concept of equal pay for all workers regardless of skill or productivity, this plank of the communist manifesto has been implemented both in Union shops and via the minimum wage. But the minimum wage law violates the rights of private parties to contract without interference and is another example of the numerous ways that liberals have worked to implement Marxism in our nation.

9) Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of population over the country.

This is Social Engineering. This, for example, is telling people where to live and telling farmers and businessmen by dint of government regulations and central planning how to run their business! Yes we have plenty of Social Engineering in America. Yes our nation has been severely damaged by leftists who have been very successful at implementing to a greater or lesser degree all ten planks of the Communist Manifesto, but it is not yet absolute or irreversible.

10) Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. etc.

Yes we have this in America. In my opinion this Plank of the Communist Manifesto ranks second place for the evil it has done to our nation. Our lousy, government run, Public School and Public University system costs three to four times more than it should and yet they do a poor job of educating the children. Now the Federal government is trying to take over public education in America. The Fed's are proposing through their Goals 2000 program, another program that is right out of the communist manifesto. It is called the "Schools to work program." But the worst aspect of government schools is that they are actively promoting and indoctrinating our children in the ideas of Marxism, big government, central planning, government run education, fiat currency or paper money, environmental extremism, forced unionism, evolution, feminism, homosexuality and socialism in general. May God Help Us to defeat our enemies peacefully now rather than by violence or war later.

Here is the total:

1. This goal has been fully implemented.
2. This goal has been fully implemented.
3. This goal is only partially implemented.
4. This goal has been fully implemented.
5. This goal has been fully implemented.
6. This goal is only partially implemented.
7. This goal is only partially implemented.
8. This goal is only partially implemented.
9. This goal is only partially implemented.
10. This goal has been fully implemented.

This means that America is already approximately 50 to 60% communist. Odd isn't it that the 60% figure is exactly what most conservative economists say we are paying in taxes when you add up every tax and combine that figure with the cost of Federal regulations.

google it more, it's all over the place. i guess a lot figure, "since it's not on tv or i don't read it in the newspaper then it must not be true.". c'mon guys and gals, the media, all of it is owned by someone. someone very wealthy, someone that controls what gets put on tv and put into print. those wealthy people don't want everyone else around, using up FINITE natural resources. they want to be around to spend all the money they made from us.

"but shake, how would they take our rights away? they can't do that." they do it everyday, through legislation. that makes it perfectly legal, according the biased, crap laws that they make. by hiding stuff in bills, such as HR 3200 aka the "health care" bill, that are thousands of pages long.

ding ding ding.....ding ding ding.....ding ding ding.....that's the alarm clock.......WAKE UP!

-shake

delusionsofNORMALity

08-21-2009, 05:50 PM

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither. ~ Benjamin Franklinbut avoiding the downside of liberty is the mantra that the liberal establishment has used to place their advocates in power and subjugate the citizenry for years. accepting complete responsibility for your actions and the necessary willingness to accept failure as a possible outcome to our efforts make liberty a tough row to hoe. obsessed with the material, fewer and fewer americans each day understand just how hard it is to be truly free. we seem to accept the magic of a society that embraces the individuality of all men as commonplace and fail to appreciate that gift.

the phrase "freedom is not free" is seldom heard except when we are being asked by some bureaucrat to pay for his or her mistakes with our hard won wealth or even our very lives. the ultimate cost of freedom is the possibility, if not probability, of failure and a certain amount of suffering. the willingness to accept those consequences is a duty that cannot be shirked if our liberty is to be maintained. the bailouts, endless social programs and promises of wealth redistribution by the liberal establishment may play well to those who feel shorted in this life, but can only lead to the formation of a society of drones ruled by an opaque and unresponsive political elite.

yokinazu

08-21-2009, 11:46 PM

workmans comp dont pay dick. thay pay 0% when you get that cup and piss in it. i dont live in mmj state nor do i have a card, so when i piss hot workmans comp is out the window.

i do not agree with the proposed plan but we definatly need something. our system is broken. i dont have the answers on how to fix it but i hope that my vote will put someone in power who can. by the way i did not vote for obama nor would i have. him and the "liberals" aint got the change i want.

there are things our goverment can do to make health care more affordable such as allowing us to by our meds from cannada or mexico. some sort of tax relief for those of us who cant afford health care. let us go across state lines to buy said health care. but the fact remains that the american people are being raped by insuance and drug companys.

i still say let congress go without till they come up with a plan that makes most everyone happy.

carinia

08-22-2009, 07:19 PM

Headshake, according to you it seems that liberals have been in power for the last 50 years. Words like yours are the reason liberal is such a dirty word right now. Look up liberal in the dictionary, and youll see a lot of definitions that you might see yourself in. I guess I'm not really sure who these liberals you keep talking about are. I've always considered myself one; I like to give generously, I'm always up for political reform and progress, I like and back movements that grant other's liberty and protect our own.

Also, a lot of the communist commandments have the backing of republican presidents, which are "never" liberal. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm confused on you're research and opinions. You are preaching against communism but none of your bullet points on the manifesto contain anything about the health care bill. The examples you gave are bordering on lunacy.

#1: This is a serious threat to our nation, but it is one that every president and congress has passed a set of laws eroding our ownership of property.

#2: This I dont even want to touch if you're pulling bible quotes for what our nation should be.

#3: Im sure that since not a single "liberal" has a family, they want to destroy everyone elses. Death taxes suck for anyone left with money.

#4: Regan. And then Bush.

#7: Farm subsidies have been around for 70 years. It is not a new thing. The drive for agribusiness was more of one of technology and economies of scale, rather than of politicis. It is not a perfect system, and the loss of the family farm is a sad one. But that is where we change from an agricultural nation, to a manufacturing one, and no one of who knows what.

#8: Unions, while not my favorite thing either, have served a useful role in the shaping of our country's worker's rights. The membership and percentage of population involved in a union has been declining since the 70's: they're not needed anymore.

#9: I dont actually see any facts there.. so..

#10: The only fact I can see there is the Goals 2000 program. Which was made up in the 90's, ended in 2000. The school to work program I couldnt find any info for, unless you're talking about the study that came out in 2001. Which is generally seen as the predecessor of the No Child Left Behind act.

Anyway, I don't really know what you're argument is headshake, but Im going to argue with you anyway. Because probably every bill has had someone's agenda in it, and with a massive bill like this which has so many opinions there is going to be a lot of ridiculous requests. Thats democracy, and thats how it works. It does limit our rights, it does strip our freedom piece by piece, but that is not due to communism, socialism, or the family destroying, resource sucking, boogy man liberals you keep talking about. It is because we elect bad people into power, people that are unscrupulous and morally corrupt. And they get paid big bucks for being that way.

IMO, the dollar is a much larger influence in our politics and in our lives than a whole planet full of "liberals". But whatever man, I guess Im just "missing the point" again. Oh no wait, I just have a different opinion.

headshake

08-22-2009, 07:46 PM

i don't think i used the word liberal at all in my last post. and i never said it was the liberals fault that our nation is in this mess. there is nothing wrong with the word liberal. i was merely stating that it is funny that no one probably ever thought that it would be a liberal mentality that would be changing this country for the worst, i always assumed that it would be right wing republicans (not that they aren't doing their part). and in case you haven't noticed, the dems don't need the republicans to pass shit right now. and yes, i know, every dem isn't liberal necissarily. and you're right, i do fall in the definition of liberal in one form or another.

that list of the communist planks was something i copied and pasted here, just to get people to think. you can find list similar, with different wording all over the internet.
food for thought, ya know.

again, the debate is beyond health care. it's fighting against the machine that is tripping our rights away. don't sit here and hide behind it though, acting as a patriot, saying it's okay for them to take your rights away behind "protection". our forefathers didn't think that way. that's not how our country was founded.

i'm not saying i have the answers, simply more questions, same as you. but the proposed plan is not the answer. i guess you don't mind if the govt has real-time access to your bank account? you're okay with this? in the name of health care?

perhaps the govt should hold the insurance companies and doctors responsible and not write legislation protecting them. perhaps lobbying should be outlawed. perhaps political leaders shouldn't get paid.

i'm not arguing with you, it's a debate, as we both have an opinion on the subject. that's the beauty of our country. we are allowed to think differently.

would you give that up for health care? would you give up your right to an opinion? i wouldn't.

"But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations,
pursuing invariably the same object,
evinces a design to reduce them under absolute despotism,
it is their right, it is their duty,
to throw off such government, and
to provide new guards for their future security."

-decleration of independence

so our forefathers knew something would eventually go awry. that's why they gave US the power to stand up to the govt, overthrow it if need be and establish a new govt. those that have the ability have the responsibility to make change for our safe future.

again, this goes way beyond health care. health care for everyone is merely a guise, a ruse, to take more of your rights away. and for what? so you can die earlier? why all of a sudden is health care a top priority? we've been the only industrialized country in the world without it, but know it's a top priority. they tried to shove it through (by the end of this month) same as they did with the "bail out" bill. people got smart real quick i guess.

the dollar is something else totally. greed in general is an evil thing. who is responsible for holding greedy politicians accountable? you and i my friend, you and i.

as always, i appreciate your opinoin.

-shake

carinia

08-22-2009, 07:56 PM

Hey shake, where is that thing in the bill for the bank accounts? Id like to take a look at that but I cant find it in the 1100 pages (hahaha).

And man Id feel so much better about this country if lobbying were outlawed.

I agree with you on the right wings. Thats what is so scary right now, the abuses in power they have established over the last decade or so have paved the way for a totalitarian rule, by anyone. I agree the last thing we need right now is a bleeding heart who can't walk a hard line.

headshake

08-22-2009, 08:06 PM

page 59.

"HR 3200 IH
â??â??(C) enable electronic funds transfers, in
order to allow automated reconciliation with the
related health care payment and remittance ad-
vice;

look for a break down of the bill online. it makes it a lot easier to digest. they also want to issue national health care ids. what's that sound like to you? can you say new world order. lol.

i'm not trying to sound like a nut or anything. there is a lot of bad stuff in this bill. we do need something done to the health care in this country. but it's all for naught unless we go back to the drawing board all together. we need to get back to the constitution. get rid of big govt. get rid of the federal reserve and the fiat money system that they have put in place.

in 1933 (i think) the govt took everyones gold to make the federal reserve and this crappy fiat system that we have now. our whole economic outlook is fubar'd. we could get rid of banks in general, for the most part. all they do is make money off mine and yours. there have been at least 9 banks go under this year. a lot more would have had it not been for the "bail out".

i'm sorry for getting heated, this stuff really makes me angry. our country is going to hell in a hand bakset.

-shake

delusionsofNORMALity

08-23-2009, 09:04 AM

a political or social philosophy advocating the freedom of the individual, parliamentary systems of government, nonviolent modification of political, social, or economic institutions to assure unrestricted development in all spheres of human endeavor, and governmental guarantees of individual rights and civil liberties.above is the dictionary definition of "liberalism". you might notice it has very little in common with the ideology presently touted by the leaders of the liberal establishment. the most glaring differences are the total lack of regard for "the rights of the individual" in favor of the will of the mob and an insistence on the necessity of "restrictions" on every facet of our lives.

.....according to you it seems that liberals have been in power for the last 50 years.....try making it the better part of the last century. since around the time of the great depression we have been getting sucked deeper and deeper into the quagmire of the new liberalism. its hallmarks are an increasingly powerful and intrusive central government, an ideology that places the supposed good of society ahead of the rights of the individual and a nanny state mentality that allows government the right to force any individual to bend to the will of the state. does this sound suspiciously like totalitarianism? well, that is what liberalism has become.

.....I guess I'm not really sure who these liberals you keep talking about are. I've always considered myself one; I like to give generously, I'm always up for political reform and progress, I like and back movements that grant other's liberty and protect our own.....your charitable inclinations have little to do with the present state of liberalism. while an individual may be charitable without negatively affecting those around him, a charitable government is a detriment to the citizens it governs. an individual's charity consists of that which he himself has acquired, it is his own wealth he is giving away and it is his right to do with his belongings as he pleases. government creates nothing, its funds are wrung from the citizenry. by engaging in charity, the state is essentially stealing the wealth of its citizens and redistributing those funds while denying the individual his innate freedom of choice.

the "moral" duty of the individual is the betterment of those around him and the society in general. the "legal" duty of government is the protection of the rights of the individual so that he may fulfill his "moral" duty. government's only "moral" duty is to carry out its "legal" duty.

.....a lot of the communist commandments have the backing of republican presidents, which are "never" liberal.....have you been living under a rock? if you consider liberalism by its dictionary definition, the only ones that would qualify are strict libertarians. if you accept the modern version of liberalism in all its socialistically totalitarian glory, almost everyone who has attained a position of power over the last eighty years would be considered a liberal to some extent.

i'm in favor of giving this modern liberalism a new name, but the leaders of this movement are the ones who have co-opted the label. i suppose it sounds a good deal hipper than totalitarianism.

That's democracy, and that's how it works. It does limit our rights, it does strip our freedom piece by piece, but that is not due to communism, socialism, or the family destroying, resource sucking, boogy man liberals you keep talking about. It is because we elect bad people into power, people that are unscrupulous and morally corrupt."power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". it may seem trite, but it's true. as long as we place human beings in positions of power we will see how easily even a virtuous man may be corrupted by the trappings of authority. the flip side of this dilemma is that "bad people" are attracted to positions of control and no amount of scrutiny can entirely weed out the bad from the good. the founders of this country understood the fallibility of mortal men and they set up a series of limitations on government's power over the rights of the individual. for over two-hundred years our representatives in the government have been undermining that system in order to fulfill their thirst for power and they have done quite a good job of it. they have redefined liberty, they have added and subtracted rights to curry favor with their supporters and punish their detractors, they have side-stepped the innate power of the people within a free market through regulation in the name of the common good. each step we take toward absolute control by the state is another nail in the coffin of the constitution

headshake

08-23-2009, 05:13 PM

DOR, DAMN! do you right books? if not you might think about starting.

very nice.

"you must spread some rep.........."

-shake