UVb an experiment

[oldmac]

Quick background: I have been using UVb supplemental lighting for many years now and have always thought it added to the finished product in a couple of ways. I had never promoted it's use on these boards because I felt it was dangerous and had real potential to harm people. That changed a few months back on the other UVb thread, and I came out of the closet in strong support of it's use. Well some here who's opinion I respect (like Weezard) held the opposite view and those discussions led me to the fact I had not done any experiments in a long time trying to compare it's effects.

So I decided to do back to back runs, with and without and to try to see, observe and quantify the differences. I decided to use my personal grow to do this since it is well dialed in and consistent, and I have been using UVb as supplemental lighting. The other grow I'm involved in, I could not seperate some UVb in the bloom room cause of it being built into some lights, like the TI problooms.

Strain is WhiteRhino, grown as SOG size plants (finish @ abt 18" tall) in 4" RW delta blocks in a GI Grow rotating garden. The light source is a homemade LED/T5 hybred; the LEDs consist of 240 red (635nm) Cree's driven at 650ma giving 1.75w/ea for a total of 420 watts and 8 2700K 2' T5s overdriven to VHO levels of 40w/ea for a total of 320 watts. All together it's 740 watts of light, plus power supplies and fluro ballasts. All of this is mounted on a 4" octogon aluminum extrusion and mounted inside a 6" boroscilicate glass tube that is ducted for air cooling. There should be no UVb transmitted thru the glass, if there is any from the T5s.

I started this last run with out UVb on June 7th (full moon) and today marks the 7th week (lost 2 grow days to power outage) they have been in flower.

Early observation:

1) I have always claimed that UVb adds to trichome production, but I have not seen a difference w/o UVb. The WR packed on the tric's just like before, much like white strains do, tric's solid on buds and leaves, some trying to grow on top of each other, often thought it was UVb but it's not. Based on this, and something I've seen in the other grow I must admit trichome production is more a product of genetic predisposition then UVb light influence. My first sorta surprise.

2) Second surprise (big one) is the leaves of the plant in this run are paper thin in comparison to previous runs. W/ UVb the leaves are much fatter and tougher, a very noticable difference. I don't recall reading anything about this, but it looks like UVb adds to the overall plant mass.

3) At this point of 7wks, I would expect to see trichome's that where clear with maybe 25% turning cloudy. Tric's are currently all clear, did lose 2 days so maybe that's the difference, not sure at this time.

So that's where I'm at right now, everyone is welcome to hang out while I wait and see what happens over the last week or so and I get to final finish and a taste test. :D Question or comments on or off topic are always welcomed even encouraged.:)

.

[Dogznova]

Oldmac you have noticed some very interesting info on uv-b that IMO should be talked about..
This should be a great tread.. I think I know why your plants are ripening a little slower without uv-b.. Give me a little wile and I will post my reasoning LOL.. Great tread..:thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Oldmac it's not the uv-b that is making your plants rippin faster it's the blue light associated with the uv bulb you are using. Let me explain.

Most of the cfl type of uv bulbs from (pet stores) omit in the low 300nm to about 400nm BLUE range. That low blue nm range has a fast Time Factor associated with it. So when you add let's say 3 hours of that fast blue nm light to your existing 12 hours of day light you are actually lowering your lights overall 12 hour Time Factor. If your current combined lights Time Factor was say at 4 (just an example) before you added the 3 hours of the fast 300nm to 400nm blue to the mix, now your lights overall 12 hour Time Factor will be around 3.8 ish or lower (just an example) but you get the point. The faster Time Factor day after day will speed up the flowering over time. The truth is.... Speed is one of the only good thing those bulbs offer and it's actually just the Blue 300nm to 400nm that has the speed. Also it's the blue spectrum that makes the leafs,stalks thicker not the uv-b. If you remove the uv from those bulbs and just use them as speed and a blue light source then they are ok. But if your using led's and T5's as your light source then chances are you don't want the thicker leaves because of light penetration issues. Light penetration issues will cause lower THC production by default. So the less blue the better if you don't want to produce thick leaves. IMO

Personally I get most of my speed from far red. Far red has the fastest Time Factor for plants but gives no useful bulk and will cause stretch in the early part of flowering. The strain I work with only likes the low fast Blue nm in the first two weeks of flowering and I like to use 420nm. Not much uv in these lights but good speed.. Any longer then two weeks and the added blue starts to make the flowers way too leafy for me.... But the blue helps keeps the early flowering stretch down and the speed up (red 630nm to 660nm will also keep strech down BUT the speed (time factor) is to slooooow for me)...

My point is.... When everyone figures out that speed (300nm to 400nm) is the only thing good about these lights. The next step will be seeing that the good (speed) don't out way the bad (uv-b). There are much better ways of getting the plants clock moving faster IMO.

More to come soon. :thumbsup:

[crabbyback]

This looks like fun. I'm in.

[oldmac]

Hey Dodznova,

I've seen you martain-nite growers, most recently SalMayo reference the time factor of various lights. I have not been able to find anything about it in the science literature dealing with it...but I'm still looking.

The T5's at 2700K have seemed to be about the same as the full spectrum T5s they replaced, they produce a fair amount of blue and it is the only source of blue present. I need to look at a spectrum graph to see what the T5s produce tho. Orignally this light was to be red leds and whites but the white LEDs I got did not output any usable blue and they failed. I backed into using T5s with just red LED and they worked great, and is why I've tried other Led/T5 combos. The current TI pro-blooms/T5 in my partnered grow have not been successfull, not enough mixing of the lights; center sees only LED outer rows just T5 and only some mixing in between. Plus the pro-blooms are pretty complete on thier own.

Interesting, look forward to further this discussion.

[oldmac]

This looks like fun. I'm in.

Always glad to see you Crabby. This is a fun experiment to me, falls into a "shit & giggles" type of thing, got nothing to really lose by trying it. (or not trying UVb)
It is going to push me back to light theory 101 and make me start to look at wavelenghts again, just what I need as I design another light. :D

[Weezard]

Always glad to see you Crabby. This is a fun experiment to me, falls into a "shit & giggles" type of thing, got nothing to really lose by trying it. (or not trying UVb)
It is going to push me back to light theory 101 and make me start to look at wavelenghts again, just what I need as I design another light. :D

Beeg Mahalo fo' dis, OM.

1) I have always claimed that UVb adds to trichome production, but I have not seen a difference w/o UVb. The WR packed on the tric's just like before, much like white strains do, tric's solid on buds and leaves, some trying to grow on top of each other, often thought it was UVb but it's not. Based on this, and something I've seen in the other grow I must admit trichome production is more a product of genetic predisposition then UVb light influence. My first sorta surprise.

Surprised me too, at first. Then I got to thinking about it.

2) Second surprise (big one) is the leaves of the plant in this run are paper thin in comparison to previous runs. W/ UVb the leaves are much fatter and tougher, a very noticable difference. I don't recall reading anything about this, but it looks like UVb adds to the overall plant mass.


As for the thick leaves, I'll dig up the reference for ya, but basically the disk shaped cells that process light lay flat in low light to gather enough energy.

When overlit, or UV cooked, they turn edge-on to the light to present a lower surface area and that's what "thickens" the leaf.
Pretty neat actually.:cool:

Nudder week or two for da bake-off.
Unless UVb has a very positive catalytic effect on potency, I'm done with it, yah?

I'm bettin' that the dark spell did set you back about twice as long as it actually lasted.

Also, I found that my buds are ripe when mostly cloudy under leds.
Rusty trichs are few and far between without shortwave radiation damage.
My first led harvest got senile while I waited for the dang amber.:(

Mahalo again for helping us sort this out.

Weezard

[oldmac]

Yo' weezard, I ain't done with 'ya yet. This experiment is not concluded plus I might need your thoughts on light wavelenghts.

As to a two day set back, I believe that's all there is, they still got battery backup fluros (12v dc camping lights) plus my far red incandescent trigger lights. So thier schedule was not disrupted at all, just not enought light to grow for those two days.

I found some info on the leaf thickening, a result of UVb for sure. But in this case they are flowering in a rotating garden and the plant auxins are screwed up, so the plants don't know which way is up or which direction the light is so I don't think it's the leaves turning edgewise to the light.

As of last nite, trichomes are abt 20% cloudy the rest are clear. So at least that's heading in the right direction.:D

[Weezard]

Yo' weezard, I ain't done with 'ya yet. This experiment is not concluded plus I might need your thoughts on light wavelenghts.

Anyway I can be of service, do not be shy.:)

As to a two day set back, I believe that's all there is, they still got battery backup fluros (12v dc camping lights) plus my far red incandescent trigger lights. So thier schedule was not disrupted at all, just not enought light to grow for those two days.

I found some info on the leaf thickening, a result of UVb for sure. But in this case they are flowering in a rotating garden and the plant auxins are screwed up, so the plants don't know which way is up or which direction the light is so I don't think it's the leaves turning edgewise to the light.

You missed me, my friend.:(
This effect has naught to do with the leaves themselves.

This "edging" happens on a cellular level.
The microscopic thingies that process light within the cells are shaped like disks, lots of them.
When light is weak, they lay flat to absorb more of it.
Then, the leaf feels thin.

When the light is too strong, or a danger, these disk shaped cells slide into a "rool-of-coins" shape that presents only the edge of the cells and protects them from damage, but this makes the leaves feel thicker.

I'm way too baked to even search for the original paper that details this effect.
When I'm able, I'll dig it up for you.
It's a fascinating read and one of the things that made me question the value of UVb for Cannabis.

As of last nite, trichomes are abt 20% cloudy the rest are clear. So at least that's heading in the right direction.:D

Added some snaps to my album that you might enjoy.
Couple led grown "droolers".

Aloha, OM

Weeze

[Weezard]

A Granum of Thylakoid disks is what I meant to say.;)
[attachment=o224527]
See;

Photosynthesis 1 (http://waynesword.palomar.edu/photsyn1.htm)

For more fun stuff.:cool:

Nonsense!
Least I could do!:D

Aloha,
Weeze

[Rusty Trichome]

I totally agree that the pore spacing is genetic, but am still not convinced the UV light is as damaging to plant growth and development as is stated in some responses. After all...for the past 10,000 years cannabis has been subjected to natural sunlight, which has what ammounts to dangerous levels of UV light.
I'm more inclined to believe that a plant has, after all of that time, found a way to either utilize the light to it's benefit, or has developed at the very least a (chemical) tollerance to it, and either way...the results are inside of the trichomes.

What are the trichomes for...?
Trichomes - the source of Magic (http://www.woyano.com/view/2086/Trichomes---the-source-of-Magic)
Trichomes and you (http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f5/trichomes-you-4241/)

If indeed the trichomes are a defense against uv light, what does the uv light do to the interaction between the cbc, cbn, cbd and thc? What does lack of UV light do? What does early exposure to UV light do to the plant's metabolism and self-protection habits? (both immediate and long-term) What does restricted-exposure to UV, over many generations, do to the plant's genetics? Is this why some strains react to UV light in flower, and some don't?

A few weeks ago I had a visit from a neighbor's dispensary provider, (a No. Cal. grower) and he had a look at my set-up's. Mentioned I might want a little more ventilation in my flower shed, (was in the high 90's inside the room at the time) and that I should move my UV light from my flower room to my veg room, to accelerate my vegetative growth. He tried very hard to make clear that UV light is more beneficial in veg, than in flower. If it's good enough for a commercial grower with a final product as fine as his...I will be trying it out on my next run.

He was in a hurry, so I didn't get to really pick his brains in-depth. His GPP, TrainWreck and OG Kush are tasty and will make your legs stop working. Been hoping for seeds, but my neighbor has found none in her stock, and I've only seen the guy that one time. :mad:

This is evidence of nothing, but adds another dimension to the topic.

[Rusty Trichome]

Too late to edit this in, but a while back I came across this:
Chemical ecology of Cannabis
(http://www.hempfood.com/Iha/iha01201.html)

Ultraviolet radiation
Another stress to which plants are subject results from their daily exposure to sunlight. While necessary to sustain photosynthesis, natural light contains biologically destructive ultraviolet radiation. This selective pressure has apparently affected the evolution of certain defenses, among them, a chemical screening functionally analogous to the pigmentation of human skin. A preliminary investigation (Pate 1983) indicated that, in areas of high ultraviolet radiation exposure, the UV-B (280-315 nm) absorption properties of THC may have conferred an evolutionary advantage to Cannabis capable of greater production of this compound from biogenetic precursor CBD. The extent to which this production is also influenced by environmental UV-B induced stress has been experimentally determined by Lydon et al. (1987). Their experiments demonstrate that under conditions of high UV-B exposure, drug-type Cannabis produces significantly greater quantities of THC. They have also demonstrated the chemical lability of CBD upon exposure to UV-B (Lydon and Teramura 1987), in contrast to the stability of THC and CBC. However, studies by Brenneisen (1984) have shown only a minor difference in UV-B absorption between THC and CBD, and the absorptive properties of CBC proved considerably greater than either. Perhaps the relationship between the cannabinoids and UV-B is not so direct as first supposed. Two other explanations must now be considered. Even if CBD absorbs on par with THC, in areas of high ambient UV-B, the former compound may be more rapidly degraded. This could lower the availability of CBD present or render it the less energetically efficient compound to produce by the plant. Alternatively, the greater UV-B absorbency of CBC compared to THC and the relative stability of CBC compared to CBD might nominate this compound as the protective screening substance. The presence of large amounts of THC would then have to be explained as merely an accumulated storage compound at the end of the enzyme-mediated cannabinoid pathway. However, further work is required to resolve the fact that Lydon's (1985) experiments did not show a commensurate increase in CBC production with increased UV-B exposure.

This CBC pigmentation hypothesis would imply the development of an alternative to the accepted biochemical pathway from CBG to THC via CBD. Until 1973 (Turner and Hadley 1973), separation of CBD and CBC by gas chromatography was difficult to accomplish, so that many peaks identified as CBD in the preceding literature may in fact have been CBC. Indeed, it has been noted (De Faubert Maunder 1970) and corroborated by GC/MS (Turner and Hadley 1973) that some tropical drug strains of Cannabis do not contain any CBD at all, yet have an abundance of THC. This phenomenon has not been observed for northern temperate varieties of Cannabis. Absence of CBD has led some authors (De Faubert Maunder 1970, Turner and Hadley 1973) to speculate that another biogenetic route to THC is involved. Facts scattered through the literature do indeed indicate a possible alternative. Holley et al. (1975) have shown that Mississippi-grown plants contain a considerable content of CBC, often in excess of the CBD present. In some examples, either CBD or CBC was absent, but in no case were plants devoid of both. Their analysis of material grown in Mexico and Costa Rica served to accentuate this trend. Only one example actually grown in their respective countries revealed the presence of any CBD, although appreciable quantities of CBC were found. The reverse seemed true as well. Seed from Mexican material devoid of CBD was planted in Mississippi and produced plants containing CBD.

Could CBC be involved in an alternate biogenetic route to THC? Yagen and Mechoulam (1969) have synthesized THC (albeit in low yield) directly from CBC. The method used was similar to the acid catalyzed cyclization of CBD to THC (Gaoni and Mechoulam 1966). Reaction by-products included cannabicyclol, delta-8-THC and delta-4,8-iso-THC, all products which have been found in analyses of Cannabis (e.g., Novotny et al. 1976). Finally, radioisotope tracer studies (Shoyama et al. 1975) have uncovered the intriguing fact that radiolabeled CBG fed to a very low THC-producing strain of Cannabis is found as CBD, but when fed to high THC-producing plants, appeared only as CBC and THC. Labeled CBD fed to a Mexican example of these latter plants likewise appeared as THC. Unfortunately, radiolabeled CBC was not fed to their plants, apparently in the belief that CBC branched off the biogenetic pathway at CBD and dead ended. Their research indicated that incorporation of labeled CBG into CBD or CBC was age dependent. Vogelman et al. (1988) likewise report that the developmental stage of seedlings, as well as their exposure to light, affects the occurrence of CBG, CBC or THC in Mexican Cannabis. No CBD was reported.

[Weezard]

Good to see ya R.T.

2 great post in a row!
Mahalo nui!
I owe ya one brah.
Dis bud's for you. :jointsmile:

Aloha,
Weezard

[headshake]

subscribed! now i have to go back through and read it all!


-shake

[Dutch Pimp]

when y'all reach a conclusion...call me...:D

[oldmac]

Hey Weezard,

Thanks for clearing up the confusion I had about the leaf CELLS turning on edge. I really thought you where trying to tell me the leaf edges were turning thier edges to the light, and I really did not see how that was possible. The thykaloid disk packs makes sooo much more sense now. Thanks for that.

I found reference in a Rutgers' paper to an increase in "green leafy plant material" due in part to high levels of light activivity or "increases of UVb light", mentioned in a paper dealing with CO2 utilization.

Yo Rusty,

Big thanks for the posts, there is little doubt in my mind that trichomes are where the magic happens and are not designed as plant defense mechanisms, but are in fact designed to collect and condense light (specifically UVb) and act as cellular factories to produce THC.

Your friends idea of using UVb during veggative growth is most interesting of all from a usefullness angle. It makes sense that since the cannabiniods or at least thier percursors all start off during the veggative stage, UVb may play a role earlier in the plants developement then I had thought. I need to do some more reading (right here even to start) and digest this some more.

[oldmac]

subscribed! now i have to go back through and read it all!

-shake

Hey Shake,

This isn't so bad to read thru, at least this thread is young enough that I haven't gotten the chance to go too off topic.....yet.
Opens up the interesting area of internal reactions of the plant, at a cellular level.

Hello Pimp,

We will certianly let you know the out come when we reach some sort of conclusion. :D

[Rusty Trichome]

I've got some clones rooting, so hopefully I'll be able to do a sort-of side by side. (top and bottom) Will have to remove some bulbs from bottom (late veg) space to make 'em even-stephen, but if Farmer Bob's advice is correct, I might not miss the missing lumens.

Kinda off-topic...but this is my latest veg closet. Half clothes, half growroom.

The drip trays are lined with aquarium gravel, so I don't need drainage rocks taking up room in the pots, and makes transplanting a breeze. Clone tray cover is a sheet of plexiglass. Holds 12 clones. The plastic tray and bulb bases (outdoor security lights) are both from WalMart, UV light is in the bottom section. The shade cloth keeps the light from glaring off my computer screen. (and no signs of the bulbs melting it at all) Has an unlighted upper level (not shown) for a tub of just-planted seeds. (versatility)

Anyway, I guess we'll see how it goes. :jointsmile:

[SauceeMcGee]

I find this fascinating. LED and advanced light technology have always come off to me as an intimidating read. I feel like I wouldn't know where to start reading to understand it all. Perhaps Weezard can point me in the right direction of a thread or something that would be a friendly read for an LED noob. I'm obviously not a plant idioit, as it is my major of study, I just have not had the light experience...

Thanks to all, I'll be keeping up with this one

SMG

[Weezard]

Kind of on topic.

Got some new snaps of led grown buds.
[attachment=o224636]

[attachment=o224637]

[attachment=o224638]

All UVb free from birth.
First taste indicates presence of active ingredient.:D

Aloha,
Weeze.

[Horsemanrocks]

Emmylou Harris does a song â??Too far goneâ?�.
OM, Weeze, Dogznovaâ?¦â?¦Iâ??ll never hear that song again without thinking of the three of you.
A caution to other viewers: An intervention would only provoke themâ?¦..just waitâ?¦.In time, this too shall pass!

Yâ??all are too far gone,
Horsemanrocksâ?¦.out!

[Weezard]

Emmylou Harris does a song â??Too far goneâ?�.
OM, Weeze, Dogznovaâ?¦â?¦Iâ??ll never hear that song again without thinking of the three of you.
A caution to other viewers: An intervention would only provoke themâ?¦..just waitâ?¦.In time, this too shall pass!

It shan't I tells ya!

Yâ??all are too far gone,
Horsemanrocksâ?¦.out!

An' it's a one way ticket.

"I am not Granola" - Milhouse

Weeze,
Far-gone N. D.:jointsmile::stoned:

[oldmac]

Hey Weez',

Your pot porn pics look good, finished product sounds quite tastey, you should taste the diamond I mined out of the 10 shivas skunks we grew out, got one dats goin' to be a killer. I also saw your updated albums, who says a square peg don't go into a round hole (bucket).

And Horse,

You just starting to see da boys put thier heads together here, to a few hardcore growers the science of light wavelenghts and there effects on plant growth can become a relegious experience of sorts.;)
.

[oldmac]

I find this fascinating. LED and advanced light technology have always come off to me as an intimidating read. I feel like I wouldn't know where to start reading to understand it all. Perhaps Weezard can point me in the right direction of a thread or something that would be a friendly read for an LED noob. I'm obviously not a plant idioit, as it is my major of study, I just have not had the light experience...

Thanks to all, I'll be keeping up with this one

SMG

Maybe Weezard has a good source for this info, not sure. I got interested in it about 3 yrs ago after taking a horticulture course(s) at a community college. I was surprised that 660nm red light was heavily discussed and mentioned in the text books, plus the importance of 770nm far red. That's where I started and then searching for scientific papers that delt with the subject. A whole lot of research has been done, alot is not available tho cause it is directly related to proprietery interests by sponsoring companies.
NASAs LED stuff made me start to build (5mm diodes), use and experimernt, and I'm always still looking for more science.

[oldmac]

I've got some clones rooting, so hopefully I'll be able to do a sort-of side by side. (top and bottom) Will have to remove some bulbs from bottom (late veg) space to make 'em even-stephen, but if Farmer Bob's advice is correct, I might not miss the missing lumens.

Kinda off-topic...but this is my latest veg closet. Half clothes, half growroom.

The drip trays are lined with aquarium gravel, so I don't need drainage rocks taking up room in the pots, and makes transplanting a breeze. Clone tray cover is a sheet of plexiglass. Holds 12 clones. The plastic tray and bulb bases (outdoor security lights) are both from WalMart, UV light is in the bottom section. The shade cloth keeps the light from glaring off my computer screen. (and no signs of the bulbs melting it at all) Has an unlighted upper level (not shown) for a tub of just-planted seeds. (versatility)

Anyway, I guess we'll see how it goes. :jointsmile:

Nice setup Rusty, I always like to see shelves with multi use areas as they are the most space effiecent for indoor home growers.

Look forward to some more experiments and I think yours could be a good one. I know that Dogznova peaked my interest with the "fast blue" concept. I may try to do a run substituting UVb bulbs with some actinic whites. I realized in the one grow I use a super actinic white (435nm peak) for clones and seedlings 'cause it really helps with root production, and if we veg under the combo of 6500K fluros and that actinic the young plantlets stay short and compact. Plus another experiment I want to try is using some UVb during the vegative growth to see if there is an improvement. Only problem with that here in my personal grow, since I grow SOG, they are only vegged for 2-3 weeks, the time it takes to transplant the clone plugs and establish them into the delta blocks.

BTW, since I started this thread in the OP I clearly state on or off topic is ok by me.:thumbsup:

[Rusty Trichome]

[attachment=o224636]

[attachment=o224637]

[attachment=o224638]

All UVb free from birth.
Ummm...if they're outdoors they're getting a better UV light source than any artificial source us indoor guys could hope to provide.

[Weezard]

Ummm...if they're outdoors they're getting a better UV light source than any artificial source us indoor guys could hope to provide.

Aloha RT

The buds were grown under 660/ 470 indoors, No UVb at all
As was the front bud in the third picture.
The girl in the background is a sun grown AK-47.
The foreground is a White Widow grown under leds.

Now that I can get decent sized buds indoors, my concern is potency.
It may be that UVb affects isomerization in a positive way that balances the degradation.
O.M.s a better judge than me 'bout dat.
I get baked on one hit and objective quantification becomes very difficult.

Got some lungs visiting from the mainland soon.
I'll give them numbered samples and try to get a "1-10 scale" answer on potency.:cool:

Thanks for the myths link. LC-S knows what she's on about.

Mahalo,
Weeze

[Rusty Trichome]

Nice setup Rusty Thanks. Necessity is the mother of invention. :thumbsup: Plus, I'm a woodworker and have the tools and stuff.


I may try to do a run substituting UVb bulbs with some actinic whites. I realized in the one grow I use a super actinic white (435nm peak) for clones and seedlings 'cause it really helps with root production, and if we veg under the combo of 6500K fluros and that actinic the young plantlets stay short and compact.
I have a dual-bulb Sunpaq ballast from coral reefing. Plant's don't do well with just the "dual actinic" bulbs at all, and the times I've tried, quickly switched back to either the dual daylight bulbs, or CFL's. (dual actinics: square 4-pin 32w bulbs, 420nm and 460nm)


Plus another experiment I want to try is using some UVb during the vegative growth to see if there is an improvement. Only problem with that here in my personal grow, since I grow SOG, they are only vegged for 2-3 weeks, the time it takes to transplant the clone plugs and establish them into the delta blocks. I've been giving around 4-6 weeks veg. Any longer veg than that, and in flower the plants will stretch way beyond my 3' effective light range and is pretty much a waste.

I'm all set-up for UV in veg, once the clones root. I do have a couple of mom's in there right now, but way too early to expect a difference.

Weezard: Sorry. The picture of the outdoor plants threw me. :thumbsup: A nice nugget in the pocket is always a "10". :jointsmile:

[oldmac]

Way to go Rusty, from coral reefing to coral reefer, I love it.

I found the the aquarium people have alot of cool stuff...it's where I first saw the IceCap ballasts for driving fluroescents. Plus I've been impressed with the double ended MH bulbs found in thier hoods to have a much more balanced light foot print then the mogul ended ones commonly used by growers.

And hey, LED moonlights are pretty cool.
(now if I was into lunar cycles, I might just go and try those)LOL

:D

[headshake]

Way to go Rusty, from coral reefing to coral reefer, I love it.
:D

LMAO!

-shake

[Rusty Trichome]

Way to go Rusty, from coral reefing to coral reefer, I love it.

Actually, from coral reefing to coral reefer to reefer madness. :jointsmile:

I was told that the double-ended HQI's burn too hot for what I was doing with the corals, so chose the 400w MH's, and made a box to enclose and ventilate it. Meant I could move the ballast, and keep it from adding heat to the tank. :thumbsup:

[Bubbleblower]

That low blue nm range has a fast Time Factor associated with it.

What exactly is Time Factor? Do you have them per wavelength?
Do I understand correctly you can age a plant faster?
If this is beneficial for the plant wouldn't it use more of these "fast" wavelengths?



When I came across that UVB story I -obviously- really wanted to believe that.
But I was a bit sceptical because all the hype seems to be based on one old research from back in 1987*.

So I did a lot of -desk- research and found out flowers don't look or smell so nice without UVB and also fruit, vegetables, etc don't taste so good. UVB helps to develop the flavour in many ways.
Also insects avoid plants grown under UVB and UVB light itself.
(but they are very attracted to UVA).

That was already good.

Then I came across some articles about crop loss caused by pathogens and so and learned you ALWAYS suffer from croploss. That's why you don't realise it, unless it is worse than normal.
This croploss in greenhouses is about 30% average the last 3 weeks.
So without it your yield would be 42% higher!!!

With UV treatment you can reduce this loss to 0%.
This was demonstrated and resulted in this patent (http://www.cleanlight.nl/uploads/downloads/WO07049962.pdf).
The treatment works with every crop.

So I added -real- UVB in my room, because I am convinced it will do good.



* In even older research from 1974 "The cannabinoid content of Cannabis sativa L grown in England" Fairbairn and Liebmann compared 4 groups of the same plant in a greenhouse, greenhouse plus additional light, greenhouse plus additional UVB and outdoors. The first two groups had the same amount of THC, the 3rd group 20% more and the outdoors group 90% more.

[Dogznova]

What exactly is Time Factor? Do you have them per wavelength?
Not me personally BUT all nm's have different time factors, some fast and some slow. One example is Red 660nm has one the slowest time factor under the sun and Far Red 730nm has one the fastest time factor. Yes I think the info on separate nm's time factors will be released Halloween 09 by a company called Temporal Photonics.




Do I understand correctly you can age a plant faster?

Yes. (One example is) a grower can almost rippin a flower on command with the proper use of incandescent bulbs (red or clear).





If this is beneficial for the plant wouldn't it use more of these "fast" wavelengths?


Now with led's, the grower has these separate fast wavelengths at their disposal.. We as growers just need to learn how to use them. :thumbsup:

[oldmac]

Last nite marked 9 weeks that the WR has been blooming, and time has run out due to the next batch being ready to go. Usually it takes 7 1/2 to 8 1/2 weeks to finish, this time it had 9 weeks and it was at 90-95% cloudy trichomes with a few still clear, and no amber. Based on this, I believe the following;

1) UVb has a direct relationship on trichome finishing, ie getting them to turn amber.

2) the use of UVb in flowering hastens the finishing times, in this run/strain by at least a week.

Only two things left to do with this experiment, see what the finished dried wgt/plant is and to see if there is any difference in potency. While the second part will be tough work to do, I think I can handle it.:D

[SauceeMcGee]

oldmac,

how do you plan to scientifically determine which batch is more potent? Are you going to try and measure out extraction oils or something? Your method intrigues me.

SMG

[oldmac]

Hey Dogznova,

I look forward to someone releasing a chart or something listing the various "speeds of light" or time factors and there effect on plant growth at various stages of the plant's development. I have a hard time wrapping my brain around this, I would love to know why far red is fast yet red is so slow.

Hello Bubbleblower,

Interesting patent you posted, UVc has long been used for both air and water filtering for the very purpose of killing pathogens. The first line of defense in not having crop loss in a greenhouse (or an indoor growing area) is good hygiene. That is running as sterile environment as possible, but difficult when venting a greenhouse to keep spores and such out.

The possiblity that UVb may be the cause of more fragrence in flowers growing may account for the fact that growing with most LEDs causes much less smell problems then when growing under HPS.

Your use of UVb seems well thought out, just keep in mind your safety when using it.:thumbsup:

[oldmac]

oldmac,

how do you plan to scientifically determine which batch is more potent? Are you going to try and measure out extraction oils or something? Your method intrigues me.

SMG

Unfortunately I have no scientific method, just my subjective opinion and my housemate Tonto's. Probably let a few others try this batch vs. last batch.

Already vaped a small bud last nite and I see no major differences in taste but did not try it against the last batch yet. But final taste and potency comparisons will wait till it's dried, manicured and cured.

Having just been thru finding the best of the 10 shiva skunks I grew out to select a mom, I know I'm up to the task. Here it's going to be easy just two samples.
:D

[Rusty Trichome]

Sooo, my 12 clones have all rooted, and am ready for the 'UV in Veg' attempt. Y'all want me to continue in this thread, or start one fresh?

An unrelated note: I'll likely be slowing-down my contributions here at CanCom for a couple/few weeks. Yesterday morning I was violently shaking a gallon of paint to paint my 12 appartment bird condo, and slammed my hand against the door jamb. (it jumped out of nowhere) Broke my hand. (longest pinky bone after the wrist...possibly the next one over, too) Needless to say it's a real bitch to type. If it get's any more painful, I might have to go get it looked at. :mad:

[headshake]

sorry to hear about your hand rusty. that stinks. it already seems like things are dwindling around here.

maybe it's just the crowd thinning out so some real work can get done?


-shake

[oldmac]

Sooo, my 12 clones have all rooted, and am ready for the 'UV in Veg' attempt. Y'all want me to continue in this thread, or start one fresh?

An unrelated note: I'll likely be slowing-down my contributions here at CanCom for a couple/few weeks. Yesterday morning I was violently shaking a gallon of paint to paint my 12 appartment bird condo, and slammed my hand against the door jamb. (it jumped out of nowhere) Broke my hand. (longest pinky bone after the wrist...possibly the next one over, too) Needless to say it's a real bitch to type. If it get's any more painful, I might have to go get it looked at. :mad:

It would be great if you continued your experiment here, I know I and some others here are very interested in it. Plus maybe we can keep one thread active for UVb discussions. :thumbsup:

Really sorry to hear of your accident, those small bones between knuckles and wrist can be a real pain. Broken bones in that area are usually referred to as "boxer fractures" and there is usually not much they can do for it except immobilize it. At one time or another I've managed to to break a few of those, some twice. I understand that mmj has properties that can relieve pain, maybe you should look into that. ;)

[oldmac]

sorry to hear about your hand rusty. that stinks. it already seems like things are dwindling around here.

maybe it's just the crowd thinning out so some real work can get done?


-shake

There is always an ebb and flow to the boards and right now there are alot of people on vacation, even those non-working types. I lack a housekeeper for the month of August and need to drag Tonto with me everywhere I go scince there is no one to watch him during the day. And that is the perfect excuse for us to take off a few days here and there and visit various casinos. (I'm still paying retribution for the sins of the white man):)

Canna dot com may never be as big as it was pre-crash, but there are some good knowledgeable people around and I hope it will survive. Now if I can find where I left my vaporizer, I can get some real work done. :D
.

[Rusty Trichome]

It would be great if you continued your experiment here, I know I and some others here are very interested in it. Plus maybe we can keep one thread active for UVb discussions. :thumbsup:
Okey Dokey. :thumbsup:


...I understand that mmj has properties that can relieve pain, maybe you should look into that. ;)
Isn't that just radical hippie rhetoric? :jointsmile: The aspirin seems to be helping, too. (hope I don't turn hermie)

[MerryPrankstr]

I've been lurk'n and read'n but have nothing constructive to add.

Keep this thread going, it's a question I'v been ask'n myself for a couple of decades.

BTW, sorry to hear about that hand.

Broke mine more times than I'd like to remember. Never a fun time, I'm afraid....

M.P.

[headshake]

There is always an ebb and flow to the boards and right now there are alot of people on vacation, even those non-working types. I lack a housekeeper for the month of August and need to drag Tonto with me everywhere I go scince there is no one to watch him during the day. And that is the perfect excuse for us to take off a few days here and there and visit various casinos. (I'm still paying retribution for the sins of the white man):)

LMAO!


Canna dot com may never be as big as it was pre-crash, but there are some good knowledgeable people around and I hope it will survive. Now if I can find where I left my vaporizer, I can get some real work done. :D
.

i understand. and don't get me wrong, i love this place. 'tis home. and i look up to the experienced, knowledgeable growers around here. they are like surrogate big brothers, you included!

i appreciate all the info and wisdom that you guys share.

thank you all.

sorry to come across as ungrateful, because that is the farthest thing from the truth!

-shake

[Dutch Pimp]

when y'all reach a conclusion...call me...:D
still haven't seen anything...to want me to give up my CMH bulb...:D

[Rusty Trichome]

I've used the UV bulb in flower for a while (6 months...?) with mixed results. Even within strains. Not sure why, but was informed by a dispensary provider that it would do me better in veg, so I'm giving it a go.

Was real pleased with the positive results directly attributable to the bulb, but since the results varied, was disappointed with results that were less than spectactular. Evidently, your disappointments grow in direct proportion to your expectactions. :jointsmile:

[oldmac]

still haven't seen anything...to want me to give up my CMH bulb...:D

I don't think you should Dutch, right fine bulb to use.:thumbsup: Much better spectrum then a regular MH.

Gotta a question for you, I know you start cuts or seedlings under a fluro tube, do you use the CMH to veg with? or just to flower?

BTW you look alot older in your pic there then I would have imagined.

[Dutch Pimp]

Hi... Mac

I go three weeks under 6500k fluoro tubes...then, I go CMH all the way to harvest.

the grow before that, I went Hortilux HPS all the way. Less stretching with the CMH, about a foot shorter and the CMH ran cooler temps in my closet.

Reflectors play a big part with UV light; I think, too? Not all reflectors are created equal. I think the dimpled ones are better. I have a smooth polished one...:(...and have to 'offset' my plants some; not directly under the bulb....so I rotate daily.

Lots of peeps like the 'warm' 4000k MH bulbs, too....(like sunmaster's for example)

[oldmac]

Hi... Mac

I go three weeks under 6500k fluoro tubes...then, I go CMH all the way to harvest.

the grow before that, I went Hortilux HPS all the way. Less stretching with the CMH, about a foot shorter and the CMH ran cooler temps in my closet.

Reflectors play a big part with UV light; I think, too? Not all reflectors are created equal. I think the dimpled ones are better. I have a smooth polished one...:(...and have to 'offset' my plants some; not directly under the bulb....so I rotate daily.

Lots of peeps like the 'warm' 4000k MH bulbs, too....(like sunmaster's for example)

Thanks for that DP, I was real interested because of what Rusty was going to try with vegging using UVb. Since you are not about to give up your CMH I will assume that the overall out come was superior to the HPS.

I think the CMH bulbs have the best spectrum over all of any HID bulb available. Only draw back for some is it's availability in 200w and 400w only; if they made a 600w I'd be trying one by now.
I am very impressed with the SunPulse bulbs that are rated in K temp terms. They make 4 flavors; 3k, 4k, 6.5k & 10k. The 3k is great for flowering but the 10k is loaded with UV.

Recently saw the new "light spinners" from Life Light Technologies, these combined with a mix of SunPulse bulbs seem to be a pretty cool set up for achieving a great mix of spectrums for growing. Almost got me thinking about moving away from my LEDs, but want to try and put 4- TI ProBlooms over a 4'x4' aero/fog tray first to see if I can achieve LED superiority to anything else.
:D

[headshake]

Recently saw the new "light spinners" from Life Light Technologies, these combined with a mix of SunPulse bulbs seem to be a pretty cool set up for achieving a great mix of spectrums for growing. Almost got me thinking about moving away from my LEDs, but want to try and put 4- TI ProBlooms over a 4'x4' aero/fog tray first to see if I can achieve LED superiority to anything else.
:D

damn, oldmac. that sounds like a pretty nice little experiment! when does the log start?


-shake

[oldmac]

damn, oldmac. that sounds like a pretty nice little experiment! when does the log start?
-shake

Well first, I need to get 2 more TIs. The only problem is my partner right now, he came up with the idea of using 4, I wanted to take the 2 we have and use a light mover and move the 2 back and forth abt 2' over the tray. I said great to use 4 but when I called TI the only units they have are the new housings and my partner freaked they would look stupid with 2 of the old and 2 of the new, all bolted together. My original TIs are now 1 year old and where the first batch built and sold (they are labeld "pre-production unit"s). The housings where made of stainless steel, the new ones are die formed aluminum (I think) but contain the same diodes. Just need to convince him we can still mount them all together and get over the appearance.:)

[Rusty Trichome]

Well, been a week with the UV bulb (yesterday) not much visible difference. Will be looking at undergrowth, leaf development, structure and color, internode stretch...

The tray with the bottle is the UVB tray. Each tray holds 6 clones. 3 short one's, 3 tall one's each.
The box describes the bulb, and I keep it about 6-8 inches from the clones. Box says one foot for proper usage on reptiles, but no real way to get it further without raising the CFL's.
6 23w CFL's in each chamber, but the addition of the 23w UVB bulb isn't made-up for in the control batch. (no extra lumens for the non-UVB clones) I went back-n-forth with this decision, so I flipped a coin.

I guess I'll have to work on getting better shots for comparison, but like I said...nothing going on yet.

Often wondered what kind of growth I'd get with a 20k MH bulb I have from my days in coral reefing. But it's a 400w and not too sure I would want to commit to the wattage and heat, if results were sub-par...and supplimental lighting would be out of the question. (heat and electric bill)

OldMac: Tell him it's doubtful Home and Garden will be stopping by any time soon. (or keep him out of the growroom, lol)

[sheist]

My point is.... When everyone figures out that speed (300nm to 400nm) is the only thing good about these lights. The next step will be seeing that the good (speed) don't out way the bad (uv-b). There are much better ways of getting the plants clock moving faster IMO.

heres a curve ball

can anyone try an addition to this experiment if the uv-b light was color screened to filter out the blue? i've dabbled with photography and color gels to filter out certain lights to get that 'perfect' effect in some shoots, i figure the concept should be relative in this particular case.. if this could be accomplished, perhaps we'll be able to see the true effects of uv-b without spectral influence

[MerryPrankstr]

Well first, I need to get 2 more TIs. The only problem is my partner right now, he came up with the idea of using 4, I wanted to take the 2 we have and use a light mover and move the 2 back and forth abt 2' over the tray. I said great to use 4 but when I called TI the only units they have are the new housings and my partner freaked they would look stupid with 2 of the old and 2 of the new, all bolted together. My original TIs are now 1 year old and where the first batch built and sold (they are labeld "pre-production unit"s). The housings where made of stainless steel, the new ones are die formed aluminum (I think) but contain the same diodes. Just need to convince him we can still mount them all together and get over the appearance.

My TI has the main housing and lens bezel made from a hard tough plastic, FWIW, Mac (s/n 70). Did they change the housings again?

M.P.

[Dutch Pimp]

I am very impressed with the SunPulse bulbs that are rated in K temp terms. They make 4 flavors; 3k, 4k, 6.5k & 10k. The 3k is great for flowering but the 10k is loaded with UV.


:D

SunPulse's web site talks about 10k bulbs for the last few weeks of flowering ? Don't think I've heard anyone discuss that concept yet?

[oldmac]

Hey Dutch,

I believe the reason they rercommend that bulb for the last couple of weeks, is that UVb has it's greatest impact (from what I just saw) on trichome finishing. In my experiment wo/UVb trichomes stayed clear longer and changed to cloudy slower without UVb and never produced any amber ones.

Here's my last obsevations, since drying and manicuring;

1) The finished buds have less odor wo/UVb, they lack the sweet/pungent smell that I usually have with WR.

2) Potency seems to be slightly less wo/UVb, myself and a few tasters could tell a difference but it was very slight. Tonto preferred the wo/UVb saying only it was a better overall "to him". Again a product of no amber trics?

3) Finished weight was down a bit, averged .42 grams per plant less wo/UVb. That does not sound like alot but in my SOG grow it equals 2+ OZs for the run.

I'm not going to give up the UVb supplemental lighting anytime soon. It did not do everything I thought it would, but based on just finishing times and wgt differences I believe it is worthwhile.
:thumbsup:

[oldmac]

6 23w CFL's in each chamber, but the addition of the 23w UVB bulb isn't made-up for in the control batch. (no extra lumens for the non-UVB clones) I went back-n-forth with this decision, so I flipped a coin.

I don't think that small a difference in lumens will invalidate the effects of your experiment. If UVb has an effect overall, starting at the veg state, it will have an effect. Good coin toss.

OldMac: Tell him it's doubtful Home and Garden will be stopping by any time soon. (or keep him out of the growroom, lol)

I sorta see his point, we are talking about placeing over $5,000 worth of lights over one grow tray. For that much money they should be aesthetically pleasing.



Are you showing any signs of turning hermie from the aspirin? :D

[oldmac]

My TI has the main housing and lens bezel made from a hard tough plastic, FWIW, Mac (s/n 70). Did they change the housings again?

M.P.

No they have not, I was guessing the new ones where aluminum, so thank you for letting me know they are now plastic. From what I gathered the originals where stainless, then they went to painted black, same shape but I'm not sure if they changed materials and then the current design.

M.P. you could do me a big favor and let me know what the new housings measure, lip to lip (both directions). Also, if possible the distance from the lip to the glass cover over the diodes. That would give me a chance to prerun mounting ideas, and see if they need to be mounted at differant heights.
:)

[oldmac]

heres a curve ball

can anyone try an addition to this experiment if the uv-b light was color screened to filter out the blue? i've dabbled with photography and color gels to filter out certain lights to get that 'perfect' effect in some shoots, i figure the concept should be relative in this particular case.. if this could be accomplished, perhaps we'll be able to see the true effects of uv-b without spectral influence

Hello sheist, you raise an interesting point about the use of filters. Almost all of the scientific research dealing with plant photosynthesis was done useing filters. A paper done in '98 dealing with pulsing LEDs (5mm diodes back then) used a 668nm LED that showed abt 660nm was optimum for photosynthesis, and got me real excited because they did not use filters.

Here for our purposes it would be difficult to filter blues out since some blue is necessary for plant growth. Also there is a possiblity that some UVa or UVc may be helpfull not just the UVb, and that would be ok by me. We pretty much can only grow with what's available to us. Using an all LED grow light, with and without UVb diodes might be the only method to better define the effects of UVb.

But if someone wants to step up with an experiment using filters, I'm interested.
:)

[oldmac]

Sorry, I just double posted.....had a brain fart apparently.

[MerryPrankstr]

Originally posted by OldMac
M.P. you could do me a big favor and let me know what the new housings measure, lip to lip (both directions). Also, if possible the distance from the lip to the glass cover over the diodes. That would give me a chance to prerun mounting ideas, and see if they need to be mounted at differant heights.

Overall size of the bezel at the bottom is 14 inches by 14 3/8th inches, while the width of the bezel is 3 3/8ths" on the "length side" and 3 1/2" on the "width side." The actual LED window is 7" x 7 1/2".


Hope that this helps!
M.P.

[oldmac]

Thanks MP, I think it does.

The size of the LED window I believe to be the same as the older model, but I'll check it tonite. The original housings are abt 12"x12+" so the new ones are a little larger, but should not be a problem. thnx again.:thumbsup:
(I need to spread some more love around, I owe you one!)

[Rusty Trichome]

Are you showing any signs of turning hermie from the aspirin? :D
I don't think so, but my boobs do kinda hurt... The hand is getting better though. Would likely help if I quit bumping it on everything. Amber (my wife) is still mad I wouldn't go get it casted.

Was wondering...(rut ro)
Are there wavelengths from our other lighting sources (HID, CFL, T5's, LED's...) that can cancel-out, dilute or distort UV light before it hits the plants? I know I read something along those lines not too long ago, but I guess age has it's drawbacks. I can't remember where. A photography forum, perhaps...?

Regarding using filters...are there any filters that would let the UVB through it unscathed, and which wavelengths would be affected by the mixing of colors from the filter(s)? I wonder if it would inhibit photosynthesis, change biological processes (wound repair, internode stretch, nutrient uptake...)

I hadn't really thought of it before, but has anyone tried infra-red? (just curious)

[MerryPrankstr]

You're welcome, OldMac... :thumbsup:

Nice to meet you and a lot of the regulars and have them as friends in my last days. Hope to finish this grow, maybe even taste some of it...

Laterz,
M.P.

[Rusty Trichome]

Tiz been two full weeks, and I'm a little more impressed that I thought I would be.

Ok, I run my lights at 18-6 and that is the schedule I kept with. 18 hours a day of UVB suppliment.
Keeping in mind the potential dangers with using UV light, I turn it off prior to each viewing and for daily maintenance, (watering, feeding...) so this is not an uninterrupted exposure.

So, I had two trays of clones. In each tray I placed 3 tall clones, (cola's from a semi-successful fimming) and 3 shorter clones which were culled from the undergrowth of the same two (identical) donor plants.

The UVB shelf had the shorter clones closest to the UV bulb, but the taller ones had more than adequate exposure in peeking over the short ones. None were further than 10 inches from the UVB bulb, none were closer than 6 inches. All 12 clones had CFL's within 3 inches.

What I've noticed so far:
All 12 clones have thrived, but the UVB exposed batch grew a little taller, (avg of an inch taller) and they have a noticeably tighter internode spacing, with darker-green leaves that appear...IDK...more mature...heartier...? Under the UV light, the shorter clones almost caught-up to the taller clones in height. This is only true of one non-UVB clone, but is still smaller than her siblings in UVB light.

Under a Radio Shack pocket microscope, no difference in pore spacing, and the trichome hairs. (precursors to globular-head trichomes). Leaves appear equal in size and shape, and no strange mutations, other than the non-UVB plants being a tad yellowish in comparison.

Had to move 6 of the plants into flower shed, so the UV in veg will continue with only 6 plants, and all will be UVB exposed.
In flower, I now have 3 plants from each tray. Two of the original 'tall' clones, one of the 'short' clones. I've tagged them and will see if any difference in growth or habits between the exposed and the non-exposed.

Still a crappy camera, (and photographer) but hopefull the pix will help. UVB tray is on the right in one picture, and closest to you in the other.

[oldmac]

Hey Rusty, the pictures ain't so bad, of course there is no way short of hooking up a camera to a microscope to be able to see the precursor hairs of the trichomes. But your observations have that covered. Seems there is not much difference between groups in that respect, at least at this stage.

I tried to do some research on your question of interference to UVb from light sources that might cancel or distort the UVb. I haven't found anything along those lines...yet, but I'll keep looking.

I did come across some interesting work that has been done on producing THC from the plants chemicals artifically using UVb. A Dr. Mechoulam (who with Dr. Gaoni isolated THC in 1964) has worked on medial applications of mj for over 40 years now. He was the first to also synthesize THC (marinol) and his process uses UVb light to do the conversion. Seems he is the father of medical marijuana research, especially dealing with the cannabinoids and endocannabinoids. I am trying to find some of his scientific papers, but without even seeing them I am sure UVb plays a major role in THC production.

Sorry I was among the missing for a week or so, but I don't have a housekeeper till after Labor Day so Tonto and I took a road trip to a couple of car shows and casinos. Keeps us from messing up the house and me from having to cook for us.:D

Keep the updates and observations comming, the early use of UVb
supplemental lighting might be as usefull as it's late use.

[headshake]

Was wondering...(rut ro)
Are there wavelengths from our other lighting sources (HID, CFL, T5's, LED's...) that can cancel-out, dilute or distort UV light before it hits the plants? I know I read something along those lines not too long ago, but I guess age has it's drawbacks. I can't remember where. A photography forum, perhaps...?

i don't think any of the other lighting sources will cancel-out the UVB, other than UVB itself. granted, this is an assumption at the moment. if light is waves like sound, with UV being short, spikey waves and the red end of the spectrum being slow and rolling waves, then it would take the exact opposite of the UVB wave to cancel it out, no? and like FM radio, or the high end of the audio specturm (treble), environmental factors (atmosphere, line of sight, walls etc) would impact UVB, or any short-wave light for that matter. kinda like treble cancels it self out quick and bass doesn't.

did any of that make sense?




I hadn't really thought of it before, but has anyone tried infra-red? (just curious)

far infrared waves are thermal so i can't imagine there would be much use there. as for the near infrared, well just aim some remotes at them and use something to hold the buttons down...lol.

sorry, not trying to explain anything to anyone, just brainstorming out loud. maybe i'll spark somebody else?


-shake

[oldmac]

While we wait for Rusty's updates, I thought I'd pass on what I'm doing currently.

I decided to not use the supplemental UVb again, at least not right away. This current batch went into bloom Aug 13th and is now abt 4 weeks in. I'm going to go to the UVb for the last 2 weeks or so, to see if that alone will cause the plants to ripen faster, and get me to the amber tric state that I like.
:)

[Weezard]

While we wait for Rusty's updates, I thought I'd pass on what I'm doing currently.

I decided to not use the supplemental UVb again, at least not right away. This current batch went into bloom Aug 13th and is now abt 4 weeks in. I'm going to go to the UVb for the last 2 weeks or so, to see if that alone will cause the plants to ripen faster, and get me to the amber tric state that I like.
:)

Might have to fool with it myself.
Just had 2 of my outdoor ladies ripped off!:mad:
There's that "ethical human behavior" again:(

Gonna have to go back to indoors under LEDs.
Just so I don't have to hurt anybody.
It's probably kids.
But with the quality of these strains, they'll be back.
I can cope with the loss of weed, it's the trust in others that is never the same.:(:(:(
Makes the world a colder place.

Have ordered a proximity alarm and a fence charger for the outdoor pen.
Don't have solid faith in it though. So, will have to keep an indoor room to insure a minimum med. supply at the least.

So, Howzit with you?

Weeze

[oldmac]

Hey Weez,

Sorry to hear about the rip off, I know what a bitch it is. I lost an entire greenhouse (8'x16') last fall, all where seeded plants. Besides the money I lost that was to come from those seeds (hurt me big time) the real shit part was they poisoned my outside dog. But the up side is there are now 3 less crack heads in my town, for some reason they disappeared a few months later.;)

BTW I hear you are becomming a mole-ass user. Et tu 'zard?

You may want to consider a little UVb indoors to get amber trics.:)

[Rusty Trichome]

Sorry, but wife had a tizzy. I promised her not long ago I'd stop with the UV threads, but it seems she swears it extended to me actually using the bulbs, too. She's been going through the chemo treatments for the better part of 7 years, and it's understandably a concern of hers. (albeit not entirely rational) Not entirely unlike an ex-smoker when they smell smoke, or a recovering alcoholic smelling booze.

Anyway, it's the end of the line for my UV usage. If I can allay tensions or stresses in her life, (and by extention...mine) it's my job to help do so. So for me, likely best to return to growing without the risk.

Parting conjecture:
I am convinced UV light changes the physical biology of the plant, requiring it to excell at building strength, battling the elements (wind and sun) and might just contribute to aroma and flavor, and might be altering the "expression of maturity". Seemingly, the only process not directly or indirectly correlating to trichomes, are the bonds (or structures) the celulose forms within the stalks and leaves. Perhaps all cannabis strains deal with this in a positive way, but I doubt it. I'm sure all will react in some fashion, but will that fashion be a benefit to us cannabis smokers?

But I do think it's likely dominate strain specific, (geographical) giving us these variable outcomes. Or conversely, it might be the recessive traits being brought-forth under the harshness of UV light. Or, maybe it's just that occationally we grow some really wicked shit, and it's not the lights at all, lol. <sigh>

Given a choice...I'd keep the bulb running. But she's my wife, and I know where she's coming from. :thumbsup:

Sorry to hear about your losses, Weezard. One of the many reasons I dislike people. Well, it's not really that I actively dislike people...I just don't like them. :jointsmile:

[Weezard]

"You may want to consider a little UVb indoors to get amber trics.:)"

That's zackly what I'm about to do.
I like my buds just a little singed around the edges.;)

"BTW I hear you are becomming a mole-ass user. Et tu 'zard?"


As for da small, burrowing, rodent's derrier?

Well, jus' cause Image Reaper endorsed da stuff, I'm gonna double-blind some clones with it and see what happens.

Tryin' to get someone to "mirror my test".

If it turns out to be effective folklore, woohoo!
If bogust, like the chloramine scare, one less thing to have to think about, yah.:D

Guess I'm gonna :jointsmile:, an' think about all the good folks that did not steal from me.
Ah,:stoned: that's mo' betta.

Aloha,:)
Weeze

[headshake]

"You may want to consider a little UVb indoors to get amber trics.:)"

That's zackly what I'm about to do.
I like my buds just a little singed around the edges.;)

"BTW I hear you are becomming a mole-ass user. Et tu 'zard?"


As for da small, burrowing, rodent's derrier?

Well, jus' cause Image Reaper endorsed da stuff, I'm gonna double-blind some clones with it and see what happens.

Tryin' to get someone to "mirror my test".

If it turns out to be effective folklore, woohoo!
If bogust, like the chloramine scare, one less thing to have to think about, yah.:D

Guess I'm gonna :jointsmile:, an' think about all the good folks that did not steal from me.
Ah,:stoned: that's mo' betta.

Aloha,:)
Weeze

hey weeze, i'll mirror your study. my only question is how is it gonna be double-blind? we know what plants get it and there is no one else that doesn't know what's going on. lol. did that make sense?


-shake

[Weezard]

;)
hey weeze, i'll mirror your study. my only question is how is it gonna be double-blind? we know what plants get it and there is no one else that doesn't know what's going on. lol. did that make sense?


-shake

The double-blind comes later, at the bake off, brah!
Mole ass makem beeg? Dat's nice.
Mole ass makem smell mo' betta? Jus' fine.
But, personally.
Ainokea 'bout big, nor pretty.
Gonna, pretty soon, look like ashes anyway.:rastasmoke:

If da south end of a northbound mole gonna "kick it up a notch", :cool:!
Now you're speaking hawaiian!

So, roun' here we gonna put M.A. bud, an' no M. A. bud in identical containers, put 'em onna lazy susan, turn out da lights, an' geevum a spin.
Den we smokem inna dark.
When we sure which one be da kine, we turn over container.
Label onna bottom.
Blind enough for ya?:D

Howzit, HS?

Weeze

[oldmac]

Hey Rusty,

Sorry to read about the end of your experiment and UVb use. I applaud you tho for having your priorities straight and trying to keep your wife happy. My wife passed almost 25 years ago from cancer and I would give anything to have her nag me just one more time.:(

I may try your experimment starting at the beginning of veg, possibly in the partnered grow were we veg a little longer then here. Not sure I can set up a side by side, maybe run a batch with and compare a batch without. Your conjecture's are great food for thought, I hope I can follow up on them.

Weez and Shake,

Would be great to have two experiments with mole-ass. Do you really need to do a blind taste test, do you think you'd be influenced by knowing which is which? However you work out your experiments protocol it sounds like a good idea.:jointsmile:

Hey everbody, ain't it great to see Stinkyattic around and to read her posts? Hope she comes around regularly, it just might help to revive the boards...and keep the shills at bay.:thumbsup:

[headshake]

Hey Rusty,

Sorry to read about the end of your experiment and UVb use. I applaud you tho for having your priorities straight and trying to keep your wife happy. My wife passed almost 25 years ago from cancer and I would give anything to have her nag me just one more time.:(

sorry to hear about your wife old mac. truly. the last part brought a tear to my eye.

rusty, i applaud you too! that's the other half!


I may try your experimment starting at the beginning of veg, possibly in the partnered grow were we veg a little longer then here. Not sure I can set up a side by side, maybe run a batch with and compare a batch without. Your conjecture's are great food for thought, I hope I can follow up on them.

i might be able to get some uvB action going on too. it might be a few weeks or so, but i hope to be able to help out with the experiment.


Weez and Shake,

Would be great to have two experiments with mole-ass. Do you really need to do a blind taste test, do you think you'd be influenced by knowing which is which? However you work out your experiments protocol it sounds like a good idea.:jointsmile:

i don't thing the study needs to be double blind. again, i don't know how it would even be double blind. maybe i'll have to get the wife to give the mole-ass. i'm sure i could do that. i'm game for whatever. Weeze, if you want to let me know how you are gonna do yours i can follow suit so we are on the same page. i'll be using soil though.


Hey everbody, ain't it great to see Stinkyattic around and to read her posts? Hope she comes around regularly, it just might help to revive the boards...and keep the shills at bay.:thumbsup:

it's great to see stinky around again. can't say i had the opportunity to get to know her before she had to leave us, but i sure missed her. she's full of wonderful information. and i hope she does help keep the shills at bay!


-shake

[hugetom80s]

I don't remember where I got it, but I've been using this "New Generation" USB microscope for about half a year now. It a cheap thing, definitely not what you'd call a product with quality as a major contributing design concept, but it works quite well for my needs.

It'll put a live video image on your computer that you can record pictures/video from and it's good enough to go down to a cellular level if you want.

You might try looking for something like that. I don't think I spent more than $40 on it.

[Weezard]

"Would be great to have two experiments with mole-ass. Do you really need to do a blind taste test, do you think you'd be influenced by knowing which is which? However you work out your experiments protocol it sounds like a good idea.:jointsmile:"

I was jus' jerkin Shake's chain a li'l.;)

What I tried to say was.

If I don't label them, I'll soon have no clue as to who is whom.:stoned:

I intend to take 4 cuttings and give molasses to 2 of them.
Then take some pictures.

For the UV :weedpoke:
I have a 4' long, quartz tube, UVb and then some, germicidal, mercury vapor lamp, that I used to use to bulk erase e-proms.

Even with the recent event, I have a surplus of meds, so...
I'm thinking about hitting my latest 2 bloomer girls with sidelight UVb for the last 2 or 3 days before harvest, and see what it does to the trichs.
No worry, the room is sealed and I'll use a micro-switch to kill the UV when the door is opened.
I just don't have the indoor room to do it the right way.
(With some exposed and some protected.)

If it degrades potency compared to the ones I've just harvested, it's not a big woop. I can actually afford to toss it.

I can legally posses up to, but not more than, 6 oz. of dried, cured buds, (or hash:)), at any one time.

Been gifting "hanover fitz" for a while now.
All my friends are covered for a months, and believe it or not, it can be hard to find folks that you can safely give weed to.:wtf:

So, I gotta slow da grow a little anyway.
Good time for experimenting, yah?

Life is incredibly good to me.

Wee 'zard

[WhiskeyTango]

This is what I get for being away so long! Now I gotta go back and read this entire thread! Thanks guys for not giving up on LEDs and UVb like I did, lol...Well I didnt stop for good, just need to get some weight ready before I can start 'playing' again....K+ guys!

good vibes

[oldmac]

Hey WhiskeyTango (420), what you up to besides slumming here! Besides UVb experiments we got future moleasses ones about to start. Are you a believer or skeptic with the use of either? Good to see you stopped by, hope you stop around more.:thumbsup:

[Dutch Pimp]

Hey WhiskeyTango (420), what you up to besides slumming here! Besides UVb experiments we got future moleasses ones about to start. Are you a believer or skeptic with the use of either? Good to see you stopped by, hope you stop around more.:thumbsup:
WT ..is moving in multi-directions...:thumbsup:

[WhiskeyTango]

heh...thanks DP!...lol

Oldmac- I am a believer of both! Mole-asses or Succanant!

good vibes

whats up WEEZ!!!!

[Weezard]

heh...thanks DP!...lol

Oldmac- I am a believer of both! Mole-asses or Succanant!

good vibes

whats up WEEZ!!!!

In short, rustlers!:mad:

For details; http://boards.cannabis.com/games-arcade-talk/169569-calling-out-dreadedhermie-game-stoner-chess.html

In long, all kine sing.:thumbsup:
Got 2 new puppies, small kine.
They'd be snacks for my 6 stone moose.
Alarm just arrived by Fedex,:cool: gotta go read the manual.

Aloha
Weez

[oldmac]

Thought I'd update what I got going on. I ran a second batch wo/UVb again, but turned on the UVb supplemental lighting at week 6 of flower (last week on 9/23). In less then a week trichomes have gone from all clear to almost all cloudy. You can still find some clear but not many.

If anyone remembers my last run I never got to amber tric's even at 9 weeks. The White Rhino I'm running usually finishes in 7 1/2 to 8 1/2 weeks, so the addition of UVb at week 6 has made a major difference all ready in "ripening" the current crop.

I need to find a cheap UV light meter so I can start to quantify the amounts of UVb being used. Also, I'm trying to figure out how to do a UVb experiment during vegative growth. I may try something with the Pro-mix grow once I see what we have going on there after the next run is done.:)

[MerryPrankstr]

oldmac,
I've been following this thread since the beginning with interest, but not a whole lot to add. I'm not sure I have anything real to add yet, either.

The thing is, I'm not sure that it reall neccesary for the trichs to turn amber. You saw my humble bagseed grow. I never saw more than one or two amer trichs, but that stuff was mature and ripe, for sure. Are you sure it's not jut that we're used to determining ripeness that way and it atually is a signal for THC degradation.

I, too, remember all the old growers tales about how important UV is to the growth and flowering. The only proper way would be a quantitve assay, which is most likely not available to us. Still an open mind here, but nothing has been proven yet either way.



BTW, I like that aero setupon your other thread. If God grants me time enough for another grow I might even "go there".

[ exit stage left with a dark, wicked "muhahaha! echoing in the the distance ]

AS always... er...
M.P.

[oldmac]

Hey MerryPrankstr,

Just adding your thoughts are good enough. I think I proved, at least to myself, that UVb does not add to trichome production. I was of the opinion based on the "plant protecting itself" myth that UVb would add trics and that ain't so. I got a glimpse of that last year growing a mmj designed for cancer patients we nicknamed "apricot". When I got plant cuttings from a fellow in the midwest he showed and told me there are no Trichomes on the leaves and only moderate amounts on the buds. All I could think is "wait till I grow these, you'll see trics..." and no matter what I did, no matter what UVb I threw at them they stayed true to the mom. This was the first stuff I ever grew that we threw away the trimmings because there was nothing to get kief from.

As to ripeness, UVb has a definite influence on trichome finishing. If it means one week less to get to what I look for in this strain (25% amber) then it is worth it to me, time is money. The other thing I noticed was a lack of smell or aroma when not using UVb, apparently for a flower to smell like a flower it needs some UVb.

OT: not sure what health problems you're battling, but keep fighting. I met my housemate Tonto when he was in hospice care and told he had 2 weeks, that was 12 years ago. Hope you get better, I want to see you try some fog growing.:D

[Rusty Trichome]

OM: When inspecting the harvested buds, did you happen to check the undersides of the leaves for trichomes? Just curious, b'cuz when I was running the UV in flower, it seemed to 'unlock' the flood gates with trichs on the undersides. (indica dom) Wanted to check this on my sativa doms this winter, but didn't get a chance. Usually I'll see a few, but not many. Fairly packed undersides are not a 'normal' trait for this strain, so am curious of other's results as well...

[MerryPrankstr]

Hi oldmac,

Thanks for walking me through the methodolgy of your experimentation. It seems well founded to me, FWIW (LOL).

I'll keep an eye on this thread.

BYW I purchased some "UV" LEDs some time ago. They make credit card markings, etc visible to the naked eye and came with a warning about eye protection. Are these actual UV LEDs or smoke and mirrors.

Thanks for the OT uplifting info. I haven't given up but am a 3rd time loser with the big "C". Not giving up, but a realist. Maybe yes, maybe no.

Still love that aero, though. :)
Later
M.P.

[oldmac]

Rusty; When I ran the first experiment wo/UVb I expected less trichome production everywhere, but did not see any less then before. The white rhino puts tric's everywhere; stems, branches, under side of leaves and even tric's trying to grow on top of other tric's on top of the leaves. That just did not change wo/UVb. Just one strain tho, so it may not hold true for others. That's the porblem with limited experiments. Soon I'm going to change to running batches of PPP, and I'll repeat the experiment with them. :)

[oldmac]

Hey M.P.;

While I wish this was more of a scientific experiment, I can only do observational evaluations. As I just mentioned to Rusty, I've only dealt with one strain here and look forward to reapeating it with other strains, so "strain dependent" could still be a factor.

LEDs are available in UV, in fact since LEDs have such narrow wavelenghts you can find UVa, UVb and UVc LEDs. The TI's Pro-Bloom has some UVb diodes, that's the reason I want to get a UV light meter. I'd like to see how much they put out vs. the reptile lights I use to supplement my personal grow. I get the feeling I'm throwing more UVb power then is necessary.

OT; As you probably know I provide mmj thru a cancer & hospice group, too many from the first group I see again in the second group. But there are cases like Tonto, stage 4 for so many years yet like he says "not my time yet" when I ask him how he feels. Stay strong, my thoughts are with you.
:thumbsup:

[MerryPrankstr]

Thanks for the info on the uv LEDs.

In that case I have a box of a dozen PAR 38 uvB lamps that screw into standard Edison sockets. When the time comes I hope to more properly ripen my curreny grow if it doesn't completely fill the area (LOL).

OT: Thanks again and :thumbsup:

Forever on the bus....
M.P.

[oldmac]

Qiuck update. Yesterday (Oct 7th) I harvested this last run, it was 8 weeks exact. Got to abt 15-20% amber rest cloudy abt where I like this strain.

UVb has it's most profound influence on the maturing of the trichomes. Just using it for the last 2 weeks made a BIG difference in how fast and even getting to an "amber alert" stage. Last run even at 9 weeks I had no amber. No doubt it would be very easy to quickly over do the ripeness when using UVb.

This next run I will use the UVb during the entire flower period, just like I did before the experiments, to get back to my standard. I also need to get a weight from the last go round to see if only 2 weeks restores the wgt lost wo/UVb.
:)

[Dogznova]

You found the speed... Awsome!!!

[Dogznova]

UVb has it's most profound influence on the maturing of the trichomes. Just using it for the last 2 weeks made a BIG difference in how fast and even getting to an "amber alert" stage.

If it's speed you want.. You should try Clear Halogen INC Bulbs. Try running them in the same manner you are currently running your UVB bulbs. I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the Halogen INC bulbs results. :thumbsup:

[Weezard]

You found the speed... Awsome!!!

Yup!
Now we're working on timing it's application for maximum effect.
At least I am.

OM's gonna irradiate the entire bloom period.
:cool::weedpoke:
No point duplicating, "his words have iron"!

I'm gonna run up the trichs with 660nm. and push for a "carpet of caps all cloudy".:D:thumbsup:
Then I'm gonna "Tan" 'em with varying lengths of sunlight to see if that color change is cosmetic, or more than cosmetic:stoned:.
Last batches are still curing.

Howzit goin' on Mars?

Aloha.
Weeze

[Dogznova]

Weez... On mars it seems one can seriously increase the speed that's fo sure. But it's the increase in medical properties and flavor that seems to be the real attraction of mars. By manipulating the PAL and PAD time factors my uncle and I have been able to increase our current setup to aprx x 2 .. Let me explain....We were getting aprx somewhere around 15% (medical properties) on a strain that said 22% on the package. Now we are getting every bit of 30% with that strain....Believe it or not.... it's too strong for my uncle at 30%...So one of the ways we are working on solving this dilemma is by using different strains that are rated at aprx 10%-13% (medical properties) on the package and whacking it up to aprx 20%. He likes this medical range for his meds. There is also a plus to using these different strains. They yield a lot more meds for him. But just so you know the MASTERS are increasing the % to aprx x 6.. I know it sounds hard to believe that going from medical properties of 10%-20% too aprx 40%-60% with PAL and PAD light manipulation..... but I'm afraid it's true. Plus the speed at witch it's being done will blow your mind fo sure..

Soon my friends soon.. :thumbsup:

[shintoooo]

Hello All,

Very interesting reading here. I have been researching LED's for a while now and I am getting ready to do a LARGE LED grow.

I am customizing my own 600W LED lights based on the research I have done and there are still a couple of things that I need answers for before I begin.

Can anyone here help me out with this:

I have heard that 660nm Red extends the flowering cycle instead of reducing it. I have heard that it is better to use a combination of 640nm and 630nm instead of 660nm.

I appreciate all input.

[Weezard]

"I have heard that 660nm Red extends the flowering cycle instead of reducing it. I have heard that it is better to use a combination of 640nm and 630nm instead of 660nm."

Aloha Shintooo

Hearsay, being what it is, can be misleading.
I don't claim to be an expert, but my experimentation indicates that 660nm.
deep red is the most efficient wavelength for cannabis photosynthesis.
(Actually is 657nm. according to the books.)
If, it does indeed extend the flower cycle, that's a good thing for personal grows.
Allows one to really pack on the resin.
So, might take longer, but medically, it's a net win in Milligrams/Gram of active ingredient.

2 cents, please.
Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

I have heard that it is better to use a combination of 640nm and 630nm instead of 660nm.


I also have read that--in a European forum a while back-- but the author(s) were basing that assumption on charts and graphs and had no actual 660 nm emitters to test. There was also some speculation about 660nm emitters basically lacking "plant-growing energy" compared to 630nm. Again, this was based solely on claimed diode specs, not any real-world experience with 660nm emitters. :wtf:

Shintoooo, if you get a chance, hunt up that data again if you can find it; let us know if it was backed up by any experimentation or if it's the same "according to established charts that we believe to be reliable" kinda assumptions that I read. (I remember it because it caused me some concern with my design. Glad I disregarded it. :thumbsup:)

I've done it side-by-side, and with the strains I tested, 660 won hands down over 630nm for resin production-- which is my area of interest. :D

I'm cornfused about combining 630 and 640 nm reds. You could probably label a lot of emitters either way. (Leds emit a (narrow) bandwidth; not just the "named" frequency, of course.) What reds are you considering @ 640nm?

600W is a formidable complement of leds. You could integrate both frequencies (660 and 630) into different coverage areas and test it for yourself. Whatcha building?

[oldmac]

If it's speed you want.. You should try Clear Halogen INC Bulbs. Try running them in the same manner you are currently running your UVB bulbs. I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the Halogen INC bulbs results. :thumbsup:

Hey dogz, could you steer me to more info or a source for the clear halogen INC bulbs. I saw halogens being used a few years back in a grow that was in Europe I believe, they interested me then and now you made me real curious.
Thanks.:)

[Dogznova]

Mac. If I'm not mistaken.. Licensed med users and caregivers will have access to the info after Halloween 09. Also I think the info will be free to licensed med and caregivers using a 3x3 area or smaller. I will know more info on that soon. So don't quote me.. LOL

As for why I say to use clear INC during you normal light on time is. Clear INC are the most economical way to produce speed (at the current moment). Halogen INC's produces more speed yet. If you goggle the use of INC and growing you will see it's all about the far red. Far red = speed... INC's also serve another purpose for my uncle and I.....manipulation of the time factor...... Unfortunately this is were I would be getting into trademark protected info.. But like I was saying... I thought I read somewhere on this forum that you are a licensed Caregiver... If that's the case. I think you will have access to the Juicy info soon. Remember I said the blue that is part of that UVB bulb is fast. Unfortunate that blue bulb has UVB and IMO is not what you want..

What I would like to see you do is a side by side comparison... Clear halogen vs UVB.

The rule of thumb for clear INC's is...3/4 of a watt to every 1 watt used of your normal on light. My uncle and I use 1/2 watt to every 1 watt used of our 400HPS. So basically we use 200 watts of clear halogen inc...Anything over a 1-1 ratio is a waste. We run 40 watts of inc's during the first two weeks of stretch. Then we ramp it up on the third week to 200 watts. We also have tested 6 hours of inc on time 8 hours of inc on time and 10 hours of inc on time. The results just keep getting better. Currently we are on the full 11 1/2 hours of on time with the Halogen inc's.

Stick to your rule of thumb for the use of your UVB bulb

Personally I think you will never go back to the UVB bulb again..:thumbsup:

[oldmac]

Hey Dogz,

Thanks for the info. First off I am a caregiver but I am an unlicensed caregiver since I live in a state that does not recognize the medical value of mj. That creates it's own set of problem's for me, but I've been doing this for over 20 years now regardless. Hopefully I can get the info when it comes out somehow, I'd even pay if need be.

I have been using clear red INC as a source of far red 730nm trigger. Not near the ration you are using for the halogens tho. As to testing the clear halogens in place of the UVb I'm using now, it may be possible, I'll start to look into it. It would seem to be worth an experiment, maybe after this run gets done in abt 6+ more weeks.

I will probably have to adapt a little with your rule of thumb for halogen use tho. My personal grow is an LED/T5 hybred and the 420w of LED (& 320w of T5) are really not the same as 420w of HPS, adjustments will have to be made. In a new setup over a aero/fog try I was just getting ready to add my clear red party bulbs, I may look to add halogen instead. But I'm using my 2 TI pro-blooms over the tray and I'm not sure how much I'll need, I will do some thinking about that.

Thanks again for the info and input. Keep on growing- oldmac

[Dogznova]

Mac...I didn't know you were using red inc's during your day time lighting... Well hell.... All you have to do is get rid of them... Red inc's are great for PAD lighting not so good for PAL lighting (Day time lighting).. Switch them out for the clear halogens I was talking about.. They have way more far red then red inc's do Plus they are over twice as photosynthetic.. Play around with the amount of wattage you use and how long you want them on BUT.. Trust me switch out them red inc's. The more clear halogen inc's you can use in your set up the faster you can get the clock moving (during the day time at least) and the faster you can get the trichs to sparkle like diamonds...LOL Hint, Hint....
Try it..... I think you will be suprised...:thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

As far as you being a caregiver.. It sucks about the state you live in but my state within the last year made medical user and caregivers legal.. Yes it's great but there seems to be a lot of caregivers now coming out of the woodwork looking to rip patients off. I'm currently a caregiver for two patients and will only teach them how to grow there own at their Home. I believe in the (teach a man to fish and he eats for life) theory.. Yes I know there are patients that can't do it for themselves... That's why the world needs people like yourself.. I commend you my friend.. Personally I can't believe how much gratification I get in helping the two current patients I have. I went to a couple of local companion clubs and met a lot of nice people and a couple not so nice..LOL Did some interviewing and selected two complete strangers that I have not known before and teach them for FREE... I think I found my calling...:thumbsup:

P.S. Yes I think it will be offered to the public for a fee.. I'm just not sure when that will be.. I will nedd to post that when it become avaible..

[Dogznova]

Sorry I think forgot to say this.... I'm talking about normal screw in style clear Halogen light bulbs. Standard clear inc's work but not as good as the halogens do... Hope to see ya soon on top of what I like to call Snow Cone mountain...

[Apollonia]

Subscribed!

I'm adding UVB to my own grow as the vented hoods I'm using block all the blue/UVB out. I'll be placing 4 4 foot Reptisun bulbs at least 20" away from the plants & keep them on for 5 hours a day. I got that advice from someone on the forum who had done it before - but it's trial and error with us. I'm anxious to hear your results & see your conclusions. I'm not using the UVBs yet as I'm still in veg (but ill be very soon) you can check out my grow journal (http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/176050-my-first-grow-aeroponics-led-veg-super-hps-flower-co2-sealed-room.html). Best of luck to you. :rastasmoke:

[SOGMaster]

I had to jump in this awesome thread as well! UV-B is a hidden element in indoor growing that is a HUGE secret to some consultant growers I have met in person. Anyhow I wanted to get your thoughts on using these because its for a aquarium the site says, BUT.. it is in 460-470 NM... All I am asking is will this work?
Jacks Bargain Bin | Leopard 120W LED Panel | Aquarium Lighting | Jack's Bargain Bin | The Ultimate Bargain Warehouse. Maryland. USA. 21613 (http://jacksbargainbin.com/index.php?/Aquarium-Lighting/Leopard-120W-LED-Panel)

[oldmac]

Hello SOGMaster,

Those lights will not add any UVb, they fall into the middle of the blue range and at a good point for that. They would work perfectly fine rooting cuttings, starting seedings and for the first few weeks of vegging.:)

For UVb reference, it falls between 280nm-320nm.
Hope that helps.

[oldmac]

Sorry I think forgot to say this.... I'm talking about normal screw in style clear Halogen light bulbs. Standard clear inc's work but not as good as the halogens do... Hope to see ya soon on top of what I like to call Snow Cone mountain...

Hey Dogz,

I just came across a couple of clear halogen inc's, 100w each with candelabra bases, left over from some experiment many many years ago. I may try to set something up, and use them in place of the T5 desert bulbs I am using now. The two halegens would equal 200w vs the UVb bulbs of 160w, I'm willing to go 40w more to see the top of Snoe Cone mountain. The ultimate test will be if I try it with some cancer weed I've been growing called "apricot". It does not produce trichomes on it's leaves no matter what I've tried with it.

[oldmac]

Subscribed!

I'm adding UVB to my own grow as the vented hoods I'm using block all the blue/UVB out. I'll be placing 4 4 foot Reptisun bulbs at least 20" away from the plants & keep them on for 5 hours a day. I got that advice from someone on the forum who had done it before - but it's trial and error with us. I'm anxious to hear your results & see your conclusions. I'm not using the UVBs yet as I'm still in veg (but ill be very soon) you can check out my grow journal (http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/176050-my-first-grow-aeroponics-led-veg-super-hps-flower-co2-sealed-room.html). Best of luck to you. :rastasmoke:

Hi Apollonia,

Glad you stopped by here. I, like you are about to do, use UVb for a few hours in the middle of the photoperiod and only during flowering. RustyTrichome had gotten the idea from someone he trusted, that the use of UVB should start during flowering. Unfortunitly he could not carry on the experiment for personal reasons. I was just wondering if you would be interested in enlisting with an experiment? We are not doing anything real fancy here, more like with and w/o and simple observations. I've been trying to figure out a way to do it, but since I veg for so short it makes it difficult.
Need not be side to side comparo's can be back to back runs of something(s). Need not start immediately, I know you're busy with your grow start up now, but we will be here for awhile. And it will take a long time, so sometimes we just hang out on the porch.....and watch the grass grow.:)

[DreadedHermie]

Oldmac, quit flirting with Appolonia's avatar, you old perv!

What's next? A little UVB exposure the old-fashioned way? :eek:



See if I put any more sunscreen on your.....whatever that was......:wtf:

[Dutch Pimp]

Oldmac, quit flirting with Appolonia's avatar, you old perv!

What's next? A little UVB exposure the old-fashioned way? :eek:



See if I put any more sunscreen on your.....whatever that was......:wtf:
you can't stop an old dawg from doing anything...:thumbsup:...:glugglug:

[DreadedHermie]

Hey SOGMaster--

How do you get from this:
Sept 7


We are now working with a company that has been importing some of the best and most developed lights so far. We already have a few lights and will be posting the pics in another thread soon.. Just wanted to show you guys some of the past pics!!
Here is the new company we purchased lights from
jacksbargainbin.com - jacksbargainbin.com


To this:
Oct 16

Anyhow I wanted to get your thoughts on using these because its for a aquarium the site says, BUT.. it is in 460-470 NM... All I am asking is will this work?
Jacks Bargain Bin | Leopard 120W LED Panel | Aquarium Lighting | Jack's Bargain Bin | The Ultimate Bargain Warehouse. Maryland. USA. 21613

You know, we can all buy that Chinese made crap direct from China--no need to pay double through a middle man at the Flea Market.

Props on the "I'm an ignorant huckabuck, please help me decide" routine, though.

[Dutch Pimp]

You know, we can all buy that Chinese made crap direct from China--no need to pay double through a middle man at the Flea Market.

Props on the "I'm an ignorant huckabuck, please help me decide" routine, though.

"there's a sucker born every minute"-P.T. Barnum....:pimp:

[Dutch Pimp]

:thumbsup:...

[Dutch Pimp]

Don't let the thread go dry....I always, say....:glugglug:

[Weezard]

Ignorant Huckabuck?!
:S2::lol5:

Damn near hurt myself tryin' ta laugh an' type at da same time.
Dude!

Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

Weezard, you gotta review the PDF that "supposedly" goes with those lights.


There's a greenhouse grow with the led lights Photoshopped in! :lol5:

The specs morph lazily between reddish / bluish lamps. :wtf:

Ad copy claims 112 diodes--pic shows 119 (7 x 17)...maybe there's a 5% infant mortality rate? :(

Last, but not least, a pictoral representation of ISL! (Still partially in Chinese, but mathematics IS the universal language...) :thumbsup:

The "translated" text is priceless, though. Very sweet and childlike. :icon220:

[oldmac]

Oldmac, quit flirting with Appolonia's avatar, you old perv!

What's next? A little UVB exposure the old-fashioned way? :eek:

See if I put any more sunscreen on your.....whatever that was......:wtf:

Hey DH,

It's not Apollonia's avatar that got to me...it's her grow log pictures, truly beautifull! Plus she has built a really good aeroponic set-up that she's got going very nicely for a newb. And she is more organized about her grow then even most long term growers ever are.

Oh, and she is using a Procyon100 so we know she must be a good person. :thumbsup:

Besides I'm old and harmless. If you have not checked out her grow log, everybody should.
:)

[DreadedHermie]

If you have not checked out her grow log, everybody should.


I totally agree. Apollonia's work is very professional.

Internet identities being as they are, I'm not sure she's not 6'5" and named Sven, though...

Wait a second.

You know something, don't you.... :icon220:

You may be old, Mac. But I doubt you're "harmless." :thumbsup:

Yo' Fren,
Hermie :hippy:

[Dogznova]

Mac... I googled your halogen inc's, with candelabra bases... They look differently then what I am using... Here is a home depot link.. I have seen these bulbs at other locations also.. GE Reveal 100-Watt Halogen 2-Year Life General Purpose A19 (1 Pack) - 100ACL/H/RVL-TP6 at The Home Depot (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xi0/R-100493705/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053) ..... If you look closely at the inside of the one I'm showing you here.. You will see it's a glass element inside with gas, a little different then the one I googled with the candelabra bases.. I would try the ones I'm showing you here.. Only $5 if you can afford them...

[Dogznova]

The ultimate test will be if I try it with some cancer weed I've been growing called "apricot". It does not produce trichomes on it's leaves no matter what I've tried with it.

Just like you said in an earlier post... I also believe Trichome production is dependant on the strain. I have been working on a few strains that don't produce trichomes very well at all also.. When we put those strains into our halogen filled flower room it only increased them maybe 10% at best.. So it's basically a 5% to 10% increase on those none trich producing strains BUT the trichs are much more defined... On a good trich producing strain they will explode big time plus they will be covered all the way down to the last bottom popcorn bud at the base of the plant..... That's how I can tell if I'm using enough halogen in the mix...LOL ......BUT and this is a big BUT.. Any strain we put into that halogen filled flower room is done two weeks faster then the sister room that has only a 400 HPS. It's also about SPEED....:thumbsup:

[MerryPrankstr]

Dogznova,
Do you have a feel for a baseline starting point for coverage per (say) square meter? In other words would 2bulbs, for example, be a good starting point for a sqaure meter growing canopy?

M.P.

[Dogznova]

Sorry..... I hope I didn't cause any confusion. In case I didn't say this before....Halogen bulbs are only used as supplemental lighting.... I only know how to figure it out based on how many watts of light you currently are using in your set up.. I think 1/2 of a watt per watt used of CFL,LED,T5, is a great starting point. A good example would be..... 200 watts of CFL's or LED's or T5's mixed with one of those 100 watt halogen bulbs from above. Just remember those bulbs will cause stretch in your first two weeks of flowering.. We use a small amount.... 40 watts per 400 watts in the first two weeks of flowering. If your concerned about stretch...... It's best to not use halogens during your first two weeks of flowering. We use a small amount just to get the speed = (clock) going from the start of flowering.. Once the stretch phase is over you can adjust the wattage based on your liking. But anything over a 1 to 1 watt ratio is a waste...

[oldmac]

Hey Dogz,

Thanks for the bulb link, I think I can afford $5/bulb, it's that extra electric that I can't afford.:D

Good point about stretching, even red party bulbs do that in early flower.
It may be awhile till I get to try them, but try them I will.
Thanx again.:)

[Weezard]

Aloha, O. M.

Might want to start a Lights budget now.

This Halloween, Salmayo has been promising revealations of the Martian method.
Sounds too good to be true, but I'm keepin' an open mind about it.:hippy:

Guy's got wit!:D And class.
If it's all a hoax, it's a good one.:thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

I use halogens in the same manner that I was using UVB.. Just as supplemental lighting.. Martian Method is a whole nother beast..:thumbsup:


That's the only reason I was brining it up to MAC in this tread... UVB is kind of dangerous and you can take a bath under those halogens and get better results IMO...:thumbsup:

[MerryPrankstr]

No problem Dogznova,I understood you the first time, I'm looking to supplimet 300watts LED in 1 square meter.

I bulb should do it for me....

Thanks again.
M.P.

[Weezard]

I use halogens in the same manner that I was using UVB.. Just as supplemental lighting.. Martin Method is a whole nother beast..:thumbsup:


That's the only reason I was brining it up to MAC in this tread...

Got dat.

You've notice how fast he gets things, yah?
MM will set his ass on fire!
And we get to watch.:cool:

Mahalo Dogztar

Weeze

[Dogznova]

No problem Dogznova,I understood you the first time, I'm looking to supplimet 300watts LED in 1 square meter.

I bulb should do it for me..

Yes.... One bulb should work good.. Post your results..:thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Weez.. I can't seem to get a hold of sal... Hope he's not on fire yet :D...
Two weeks till Halloween.... :thumbsup:

[MerryPrankstr]

Dogznova, will do in my grow log.
M.P.

[headshake]

i know this is a silly question, forgive my ignorance, but will a coated halogen work? it says the coating just reduces glare. it's a 150W that puts out 2360 lumens or some such shit. thanks for pushing the envelope guys and gals......and your little brother just wants to tag along!


-shake

[Dogznova]

Shake.....I've been told not go with coated inc bulbs of any kind... I only use clear inc's or clear halogens inc's. Clear halogens are better then standard clear inc's IMO....... BUT standard clear inc's will do the trick also.
It just seem my uncle and I have to use slightly more standard clear inc's then clear halogen inc's to do the same trick... Hope that helps ya.:thumbsup:

[headshake]

thanks for the info Dog! i didn't really want to get the bulb but it was the only one they had. i'll be heading into town later and will re-turn it for and find a clear one.

thanks again!


-shake

[oldmac]

Aloha, O. M.

Might want to start a Lights budget now.

This Halloween, Salmayo has been promising revealations of the Martian method.
Sounds too good to be true, but I'm keepin' an open mind about it.:hippy:

Guy's got wit!:D And class.
If it's all a hoax, it's a good one.:thumbsup:

Actually Weez I've already started the budget for a new DIY LED light. Been looking at heat sink material in 4' lenghts, thinking I'd like to get away from a brick design and spread the light out. Plus I think the LedEngine's 660nm 5w diodes are the way to go, coupled with some blue Cree's and a few hi-power whites to be determined.:D

I admit some skeptism about Martian Nights Method, but followed the thread about it. I'm very intrested in it, especially the various speeds that various wavelenghts have. While I still don't fully understand it, I'm determined to noodle it out. The way I see it, even if the method is not for me, I could apply some of the light information into something I could use. If that makes scence.

[Dogznova]

Sorry shake... The coated ones will cause too much stretching.. It's best to get the correct ones...:thumbsup:

[oldmac]

Hey Dogz,

I'm going to try a clear halogen in the new aero/fog LED setup I'm in the process of putting together. Figured I'd get a preview of what the bulb adds while I'm waiting for my personal grow to finish this run. When that happens I'll switch out the UVb setup for a pair of halogens, then I can get a back to back observation of the UVb vs the halogens.:)

And thanks again for the input. If I can get similar results using a safer method that would be a big plus.

[Dogznova]

And thanks again for the input. If I can get similar results using a safer method that would be a big plus.

I belive you will get better results then the uvb bulb... We got much better results.

But then again we have no LED's in our mix.. I can't wait to see your results..:thumbsup:

[Apollonia]

Hi Apollonia,

Glad you stopped by here. I, like you are about to do, use UVb for a few hours in the middle of the photoperiod and only during flowering. RustyTrichome had gotten the idea from someone he trusted, that the use of UVB should start during flowering. Unfortunitly he could not carry on the experiment for personal reasons. I was just wondering if you would be interested in enlisting with an experiment? We are not doing anything real fancy here, more like with and w/o and simple observations. I've been trying to figure out a way to do it, but since I veg for so short it makes it difficult.
Need not be side to side comparo's can be back to back runs of something(s). Need not start immediately, I know you're busy with your grow start up now, but we will be here for awhile. And it will take a long time, so sometimes we just hang out on the porch.....and watch the grass grow.:)

I'd love to participate in an experiment - I'm honored you would ask. :) Just tell me what you need from me & I'll start to make that happen. I've been reading (& re-reading) the OldMac, DreadedHermie & Weezard trifecta for a good long while & I've learned so much from all of you - I think the least I can do is pay you back some. I'm excited to hear what the experiment is. I'm doing my grow now, but I don't see why this can't be easily integrated into what I'm already doing - plus I like being busy :D & to have the chance to contribute usable data to the community, well that's an honor worth working for. Off Topic: I've just switched over to 12/12 on the mothers & have my UVB running 5 hours a day - bulbs are about 25" - 30" away from the plants. Update to my grow coming very soon.

[Apollonia]

I totally agree. Apollonia's work is very professional.

Internet identities being as they are, I'm not sure she's not 6'5" and named Sven, though...

Wait a second.

You know something, don't you.... :icon220:

You may be old, Mac. But I doubt you're "harmless." :thumbsup:

Yo' Fren,
Hermie :hippy:

Aw shucks fellas, you're gonna make me turn red - and not from excessive UVB exposure! I can't tell you what praise from you all means to a newb like me. Plus you guys are a total trip!

[oldmac]

Aw shucks fellas, you're gonna make me turn red - and not from excessive UVB exposure! I can't tell you what praise from you all means to a newb like me. Plus you guys are a total trip!

Looks like you have a sence of humor too, which will come in handy here. You may be a newb, but you are one of the few that has done thier homework and has come here prepared. Besides we need someone who can ditlute the testesterone pool, we all seem to play nicer when in the company of a lady.:)

I was hoping to find someone who could do what RustyTrichome had started doing, try to use UVb from the begining of thier grow. Now Rusty was going to do a side by side, but for most of us that's out so a back to back run is fine. The object would be to run the UVb from clone to finish if possible, to see if the light used very early in growth effects trichome prodution.

Since you are currently using UVb durring flower, your observations right now and when you finish can be helpfull. And if you are willing to forego the UVb use for one flower cycle to see what the differences are that could be extremely usefull as well. That part could be a little costly in time and finish, as I found out (took 1 week longer and never got to amber trics) so nobody is going to push you to try that.

Let me know what you think, if any of it is possible for you. And welocome to the wonderfull world of experimenting.:thumbsup:

[headshake]

Aw shucks fellas, you're gonna make me turn red - and not from excessive UVB exposure! I can't tell you what praise from you all means to a newb like me. Plus you guys are a total trip!

LMAO! that was a good one Ap!

there is a nice, solid core group of good people here.......we just happen to be a randomly eclectic bunch of heterogeneous bohemians! welcome aboard!


Looks like you have a sence of humor too, which will come in handy here. You may be a newb, but you are one of the few that has done thier homework and has come here prepared. Besides we need someone who can ditlute the testesterone pool, we all seem to play nicer when in the company of a lady.:)

the sense of humor is definitely good. i also agree with the dissertation that we need to dilute the testosterone pool too. and again, not to be a bobble head in agreance, but we all do play nice in the company of a lady.

on to more official business lol, i am still in for the mole-ass experiments, the halogen experiments and although i don't have a uvB bulb at the moment i can procure one shortly and will be willing to help with that too. the way my veg area is setup i can divide it directly in half with a sheet of cardboard and use the uvB on just one side (without adding more light or moving the current one for that matter). i could probably do the same for the flower chamber now that i think about it.

sorry for rambling, good meds! (and they were sampled early and quick dried in the oven!)


-shake

[oldmac]

Hey Headshake,

I know you've wanted to play with UVb, so this could be a good chance. A side by side w/wo UVb from early would be great. Check out early in the thread what Rusty was doing, I believe he was using a small CFL reptile bulb. Something like that could be very informative.

I think the halogen bulb use we can run in conjunction with UVb use, but we need to get Weezard or you to start a mole-ass experiment thread going. Might be able to recruit some others to try experiments too.


Yo DreadedHermie,

I did know something....the moderating effect of a women on men's behavior. :D Even 'shake knows that!

ADDED: And Headshake, you need to get a vaproizer so you can taste that green stuff without doing the quick dry oven thing.:)

[headshake]

Hey Headshake,

I know you've wanted to play with UVb, so this could be a good chance. A side by side w/wo UVb from early would be great. Check out early in the thread what Rusty was doing, I believe he was using a small CFL reptile bulb. Something like that could be very informative.

I think the halogen bulb use we can run in conjunction with UVb use, but we need to get Weezard or you to start a mole-ass experiment thread going. Might be able to recruit some others to try experiments too.

sounds good OM.


ADDED: And Headshake, you need to get a vaproizer so you can taste that green stuff without doing the quick dry oven thing.:)

i know it. it's on the to get list! slowly but surely things are getting crossed out!


-shake

[Apollonia]

...

Yo DreadedHermie,

I did know something....the moderating effect of a women on men's behavior. :D Even 'shake knows that!

...

Yes it's true - us ladies do tend to have a civilizing effect on you gents - when we leave you alone for too long you all go native! :yippee:


LMAO! that was a good one Ap!

there is a nice, solid core group of good people here.......we just happen to be a randomly eclectic bunch of heterogeneous bohemians! welcome aboard!



the sense of humor is definitely good. i also agree with the dissertation that we need to dilute the testosterone pool too. and again, not to be a bobble head in agreance, but we all do play nice in the company of a lady.
....

Well, I definitely got a sense of humor - no worries there. You all feel like a solid group of very bright gentlemen, I already like it here. :1baa: A randomly eclectic bunch of heterogeneous bohemians sounds like home to me, I'd be happy & honored to be 'the girl' of the group. :icon220: It'll be like having a Miss Piggy or a Hot Lips Houlihan around - but this begs the question: who is our Corporal Klinger (http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/telewatcher/2008/02/16/114038_1.jpg)? :D


Looks like you have a sence of humor too, which will come in handy here. You may be a newb, but you are one of the few that has done thier homework and has come here prepared. Besides we need someone who can ditlute the testesterone pool, we all seem to play nicer when in the company of a lady.:)

I was hoping to find someone who could do what RustyTrichome had started doing, try to use UVb from the begining of thier grow. Now Rusty was going to do a side by side, but for most of us that's out so a back to back run is fine. The object would be to run the UVb from clone to finish if possible, to see if the light used very early in growth effects trichome prodution.

Since you are currently using UVb durring flower, your observations right now and when you finish can be helpfull. And if you are willing to forego the UVb use for one flower cycle to see what the differences are that could be extremely usefull as well. That part could be a little costly in time and finish, as I found out (took 1 week longer and never got to amber trics) so nobody is going to push you to try that.

Let me know what you think, if any of it is possible for you. And welocome to the wonderfull world of experimenting.:thumbsup:

Sounds like a lot of fun and I'm definitely interested. I've got a vested interest in testing all the facts that are only somewhat known or still under debate. I'm already running a few side by sides already which I'll write up later & planning many more. Let me see how soon it will take my current project to take so I can get on it and start the experiment/journal. The way I'm planning the final set-up of my room, I just have to hang the other light - I could run a double sheet of panda cloth down the middle, separating the room in half, 2 reservoirs & aeroponic flowering chambers a piece. Think the double layer of polyvinyl would be sufficient to block the UVB from getting to the other side? One complication I'm thinking of - maintaining equal environmental conditions: temperature, humidity & Co2 levels... I could put 2 light proof vents in the visqueen divider or I could just partially split the room, hiding the plants but leaving the room mostly open. This would be a truly UVB-less grow (on one side) as the glass in my hoods blocks that end of the spectrum. I'd like to do it side by side too.

If my current row goes as planned - I'll have a virtual rainbow of MJ - from very heady sativa to stone indica. What I'm thinking is to take clones from the C99 (sativa), Sugar Blossoms (50/50 mix), and Sugar Berry (indica). I thought of going with the Blueberry for the indica, but blues are kind of a special strain with their own unique characteristics & I wouldn't want to throw an unnecessary set of variables into the mix.

One other thing which will be crucial in communicating the results of the experiment - how do you guys photograph trichomes? I think that would be very important to this particular experiment and I want to be thorough. I don't know how to get down to that resolution. I've figured out a lot of the camera stuff, but I still have trouble with focusing high resolution zoom pictures. I really want to be able to produce this part of the results.

May I ask, why did Rusty have to abandon his experiment? When I get the time (hopefully tonight) I'm going to go back and read up on your current Halogen project (I wonder if it's about what I think it is) & Rusty's abandoned experiment.

PS. I'll be requesting you all as contacts if that's alright with you all as that seems to be the only way to communicate on each others pages, yes? It'll be good for coordination, planning & set up for those times we don't necessarily want to start a new thread.

[oldmac]

PS. I'll be requesting you all as contacts if that's alright with you all as that seems to be the only way to communicate on each others pages, yes? It'll be good for coordination, planning & set up for those times we don't necessarily want to start a new thread.

Hi Apollonia, I just wrote a responce to most of your questions....but I screwed something up and it would not post. So I'm just going to quickly respond to your PS.

I've already accepted your request, but you need to know there is no PM on this board. The only way to leave somone a message on this board is thru a picture comment if they have an album (like I did). But the core group here are also members of another site (like you) and we do our PM over there. I'll send you a request there. Later I will try again to answer your questions here. :thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Hi Apollonia.... I think the glass lens will block some of the UVB light but not much, maybe 5% at best....I think I read that somewhere before...:thumbsup:

[DreadedHermie]

Hi Apollonia.... I think the glass lens will block some of the UVB light but not much, maybe 5% at best....I think I read that somewhere before...:thumbsup:

That seems about right, at least for this one.

Here's my "UV transmission test chamber" (lol). :tin foil hat:

I put some eyeglasses (Transitions, UV photochromatic) inside the bucket. The glass over the top is the lens from an Easycool 6.

The eyeglasses darkened right up. They don't do this if you use automotive window glass (blocks UV) as your filter. So, the Easycool lens must be passing the UV. :cool:
[attachment=o229992]

[MerryPrankstr]

I have recently looked at replacement windows for my house. Several values of uv protection are offered. The thickness of the glass is consistant between uv protection choices so it must be either something that is added to the glass or added layer.

My :twocents:

M.P.

[DreadedHermie]

- but this begs the question: who is our Corporal Klinger (http://s3.amazonaws.com/readers/telewatcher/2008/02/16/114038_1.jpg)? :D
Oooo! Hermie says pick me! Pick me-e-e-e!! :woohoo: [attachment=o230006]




- how do you guys photograph trichomes? I'm using a Bionicam Eyeclops, a child's "toy" easily located at Amazon.com for 25-45 USD, depending on who's got them. Dutch Pimp "discovered them" for us. :thumbsup:
[attachment=o230000] [attachment=o229998] [attachment=o229999] [attachment=o230004]

[Weezard]

The 400X magnification is very hard to use but...
[attachment=o230020]

[attachment=o230021]

Rewarding, yah?:cool:

Aloha,
Weeze

[MerryPrankstr]

Apollonia,
Off Topic:
Sorry it took so long to accept your friend invitation, but the board was acting wack for me and would save you once checked, so I waited until it would.

DH,
Then wouldn't you become a reverse DreadedHermie?
Now I'm really confused.

Back to UV talk.

M.P.

[MerryPrankstr]

Nice pictures using the "Eyeclops" BTW...

That could come in real handy for maturation checks!

M.P.

[headshake]

Nice pictures using the "Eyeclops" BTW...

That could come in real handy for maturation checks!

M.P.

it's definitely on my "shit to get" list!

-shake

[Apollonia]

Hi fellas, just wanted to add quickly re: Uvb blockage. The reflector's madeof tempered glass - which I was told is designed with the intent of blocking UV rays - how well & how much remains to be seen, but I felt it blocked enough to necessitate the addition of my Uvb supplementary bulbs. Btw, 5 hours a day no less than 20" away... I wonder how far their effective range is. Hard to find anything on it with google. If I find anything I will post. And thank you all for "friending" me - can't wait to start coordinating experiments.

[Apollonia]

it's definitely on my "shit to get" list!

-shake

Me too, thanks for the tip!

Weezard, how do you get that 400X magnification? Is it a special camera lens?

[Weezard]

...Weezard, how do you get that 400X magnification? Is it a special camera lens?


Aloha A.


That's the good Eyeclops.:thumbsup:
It's the deluxe high res, dahoosit model.
It has 100X, 200x, and 400X and a little 32 Mb. thumb drive that plugs into it's head and records jpegs for easy transfer to a PC.
Also has a built in screen and a video out.
Very impressive on a 55" flat screen

It was a surprise gift from DreadedHermie.
Thanks again "Crunchy Pants". ;)
It's a great thinker toy.:cool:
And a revealer of hidden beauty
I use this one as my wall paper;
[attachment=o230219]

This one is just kinda peaceful.
Dedicated to our own Rusty Trichome;

[attachment=o230218]

As for that tempered glass as a UV filter.
Borrow a pair of "Transitions" glasses and see for yourself.
As DH showed, they make a dandy UV detector.:)

Aloha,
Weezard

[Horsemanrocks]

but this begs the question: who is our Corporal Klinger?

I know Dr. Hermie applied for the Klinger positionâ?¦..cum on. Itâ??s quite apparent that Olâ?? Crunchypants is way over qualified for the position. I submit that I have proven my qualification for the position unerringly over time. (READ MY LIPSâ?¦NO NEW THOUGHTS).

I wonâ??t argue the point that he looks better in a dress than I doâ?¦.but Iâ??ll put $20 down that that Iâ??m not nearly as bright as he is.

VOTE HORSEMAN for klinger

HMRâ?¦out

[Apollonia]

It looks like we have a veritable band of corporal Klingers... cool :thumbsup:

I'm going to orer one of those amazing eyeclops thingys tonight -how on earth did whoever (hermie?) find them!?!?

If I may be selfish here and ask a question: how close do you think uvb bulbs should be from the plants and how far away is too far away to be useful. In my current grow I have 4 30 watt Reptisun 10.0 36" bulbs, 2 for each HPS - on either side of the plants & I have them at various distances, but no closer than 20" to the plants and they're on for 5 hours a day only. Since the info out there is so scanty & sometimes contradictory - I thought I'd ask the smartest guys in town. (This little cadre is so awesome it really needs a name... we could get bowling shirts...:stoned:)

[Weezard]

It looks like we have a veritable band of corporal Klingers... cool :thumbsup:

I'm going to orer one of those amazing eyeclops thingys tonight -how on earth did whoever (hermie?) find them!?!?

"Dutch Pimp "discovered them" for us. :thumbsup:" - D.H> Oct.22 8:40 Post 151


If I may be selfish here and ask a question: how close do you think uvb bulbs should be from the plants and how far away is too far away to be useful.

"Borrow a pair of "Transitions" glasses and see for yourself.
As DH showed, they make a dandy UV detector.:)" - Weeze Oct 24 23:46 Post 158
Gotta wonder if you're paying attention, brah?

In my current grow I have 4 30 watt Reptisun 10.0 36" bulbs, 2 for each HPS - on either side of the plants & I have them at various distances, but no closer than 20" to the plants and they're on for 5 hours a day only. Since the info out there is so scanty & sometimes contradictory - I thought I'd ask the smartest guys in town.

When ya get back, tell us what they said.:smokin:

(This little cadre is so awesome it really needs a name... we could get bowling shirts...:stoned:)

Dayglo druid's robe for me.
At night only.

Too hot by day.
Jus' wear tiny emerald scales an' a grin.:rastasmoke:

Aloha,
Wee itty 'zard

[Apollonia]

If I may be selfish here and ask a question: how close do you think uvb bulbs should be from the plants and how far away is too far away to be useful.

"Borrow a pair of "Transitions" glasses and see for yourself.
As DH showed, they make a dandy UV detector." - Weeze Oct 24 23:46 Post 158
Gotta wonder if you're paying attention, brah?

Oh heck, I had read that but I forgot! Sorry Weezard, sorry Hermie - been very busy & it appears it's made me a little scatter-brained. Those Transition lenses would be good to find the edges of the emanations - and to think I laughed at those commercials. :D Thanks for the assist, Wee. :o

[Rusty Trichome]

May I ask, why did Rusty have to abandon his experiment? My wife Amber has been going through bi-weekly chemo for T-Cell Lymphoma, for the lastt 7 years, so is a tad touchy with my playing in a potentially cancer-causing growroom.
She asked me not to play with the UV, and respecting her (our) issues, the least I could do was to acceded.

Two weeks ago, Amber had 8 cancerous spots removed from her skin, so am ultimatelly comfortable with the decision. Her cancer isn't from artificial UV light, as she dosen't grow and never used a tanning salon. But is a fantastic reminder of the adverse effects of UV llight on human skin. (the suspected cause)

Use proper care, skin cancer is a bitch.

[Apollonia]

My wife Amber has been going through bi-weekly chemo for T-Cell Lymphoma, for the lastt 7 years, so is a tad touchy with my playing in a potentially cancer-causing growroom.
She asked me not to play with the UV, and respecting her (our) issues, the least I could do was to acceded.

Two weeks ago, Amber had 8 cancerous spots removed from her skin, so am ultimatelly comfortable with the decision. Her cancer isn't from artificial UV light, as she dosen't grow and never used a tanning salon. But is a fantastic reminder of the adverse effects of UV llight on human skin. (the suspected cause)

Use proper care, skin cancer is a bitch.

Oh my god, I'm so sorry you and your wife are going through such a terrible ordeal. I completely understand not wanting extra uv in the house! How's she taking the chemo? Are the anti-emetics doing their job? I'm guessing after 7 years, you've all got everything pretty dialed in - I wish I had something useful to say, but I don't know anything about cancer treatment. It sounds like you guys are right on top of things, just right where you should be, bless her heart. I like how you wrote her (our) issues - that's the way it is when you got a real partner. It's good you have each other to lean on. I wish you strength & moments of peace & serenity to catch your breath for both of you and days of feeling good in her body for your lady Amber during this time until it's the day when it's ultimately beaten back down into remission.

[Rusty Trichome]

We both appreciate the kind words. But it is what it is. Physical and emotional up's and down's are the norm, but you learn a lot about yourself when caring for another. Nothing we can't overcome though. :thumbsup:

Anyway...thank you. :jointsmile:

[oldmac]

Sorry I've been away from the boards for a bunch of days, Monday morning Tonto cracked a few ribs and broke his wrist while driving (actually crashing) the ATV. Wound up in the hospital for a few days so I had to be there alot. (He can't be trusted with nurses)lol


Hi Apollonia.... I think the glass lens will block some of the UVB light but not much, maybe 5% at best....I think I read that somewhere before...:thumbsup:

For Dogz and everyone,

We are not trying to do "laboratory" grade experiments here. If the main source of light is an HPS and it has a little UVb output so be it. An experiment will still show what the additional supplemental UVb adds or does not add. I may move some experiments into my partnered grow, using the TI LEDs, which has some UVb in the mix, just to see what happens with additional UVb supplement.

Plus yesterday my partner surprised me with the purchase of a eyeclops BioniCam. Spent about 3 hours playing with it last night we couldn't put it down. A toy for kids.....nay a toy for BIG kids!

Hey Horsemanrocks, you'll get my vote for the Klinger position, but you need to borrow DH's green wig!:D

[Dogznova]

Yes mac I understand.... :thumbsup:

[Weezard]

Aloha Mac.

I'll show you mine, if you'll show me yours.;
[attachment=o230501]

[attachment=o230502]

[attachment=o230503]

[attachment=o230504]

[attachment=o230505]

Now you can get a snap or 3.
Den hit 'em with the UVb.
Den we take a nudder look
See how long dey take to cook.

My pre-liminary results suggest that one can change the character of the high with measured applications of UV after the buds are fully frosted and the globs are mostly cloudy
It seems, with leds, that what Amber we do eventually get is caused by age rather than irradiation.

Don't want that.

The Eyeclops lets me monitor buds grown under LEDs for maximum resin.
Then, I can ripen to any shade of amber I want.
Now, I'm getting too hammered on one hit to be a good judge on potency, but I can tell the difference in the "character " of the high.

I believe, I'll be able to "tailor" the effects/side effects of my meds this way.

I'll try to keep you posted.:stoned::stoned:


Happy trails
Weeze

[Horsemanrocks]

Hey Horsemanrocks, you'll get my vote for the Klinger position, but you need to borrow DH's green wig!

Thanks macâ?¦.youâ??re a good man and I appreciate your support. But in retrospect Iâ??ve come to realize that Dr. Hermie is indeed the better man. I found this yesterday on another thread posted by DH

Siemens are the reciprocals of ohms. They are also what make my pants crunchy.
It has become painfully obvious that Iâ??m way over my head here. Not only is DH a more qualified Klinger. On top of that is that I really have no business trying to hang with â??the tinfoil hat societyâ?�.

I spend my days now with a Long Island iced tea in my right hand, and a Glock 9mm (held to my temple) in the left. My shrink told me to â??go ahead and do itâ?�. And the dry cleaners told me that they had lost my blue feathered boa.

If I continue to be too chickenshit to â??let the hammer downâ?� Iâ??ll check in from time to time. Itâ??s so hard to read with eyes full of tears.

See ya in Heaven
hmr

[oldmac]

Aloha Mac.

I'll show you mine, if you'll show me yours.;

OK if you insist. Now when you look at this first picture, I want you to sing in your best Don Ho voice, "tiny bubbles...."
(I'll post more when I get a chance, later)

[knna]

Ive just found this great thread :stoned:

Props to Oldmac and all the people that has contributed :hippy:

We have been noticing too that the lack of UVB and far red causes trics taking longer to become cloudy, although this is strain dependent (large differences for some strains, almost unnoticiable for others), and way longer to become amber (this effect is more general). Some times, trics wont become amber anyway, no matter how longer you keep the plant in flowering.

Ive been thinking a lot about this issue. I think that for recreative users, trics dont becoming amber is a great new. I believe only medical users requiring enough CBN (degradation of THC into CBN is what turns trics amber) for narcotic effect may be concerned about this. For them, adding either UVB or far red is a must to get that effect.

I believe its not a problem because it means degradatioon of THC is way slower wo UVB and/or far red. And at the end, most MJ growers are interested in THC production the most. The "problem" is just we are used to calculate harvest time by seeing the rate of trics ambering, and it seems we need new references when using light sources wo UBV or far red.

But trics taking longer to become cloudy is a problem, as it points out that THC synthesis is being slower. But we have found that this is way more strain dependent that the no ambering issue.

I want to carry some experiments about this in the near future so I chime in when I start it. Oldmac, if you think worth to talk about what to test each grower, im fully open to somewhat syncronize experiments with all the people involved.

Im trying to get some way to analyze cannabinoid's profiles in order to get more complete conclusions. I think now that we know that THC synthesis and degradation is affected by light spectrum, and which wavebands do it the most, to determine it with more accuracy: comparing the final THC content of clones growing with and wo UVB and the degradation rate of THC to CBN under same conditions.

[Apollonia]

Hi there, knna. I've read a lot of your posts on greenpinelane & GC, I believe. You're very knowledgeable about LEDs - most of it went over my head, but I picked up some good stuff from you which helped me when I was researching LEDs to purchase so thank you.

By the way everyone my eyeclops came! There will be pics of trichs! This piece of equipment is a lot of fun. It's too early to start looking for trichomes, but I'm having fun looking at spiky cystolith hairs (that I think are the cause of my itchy arms & hands) and what looks like bubbles on the surface of the leaves. I even bought the bug vacuum for extra curricular activities with the eyeclops.

[Apollonia]

Ive just found this great thread :stoned:

Props to Oldmac and all the people that has contributed :hippy:

We have been noticing too that the lack of UVB and far red causes trics taking longer to become cloudy, although this is strain dependent (large differences for some strains, almost unnoticiable for others), and way longer to become amber (this effect is more general). Some times, trics wont become amber anyway, no matter how longer you keep the plant in flowering.

Ive been thinking a lot about this issue. I think that for recreative users, trics dont becoming amber is a great new. I believe only medical users requiring enough CBN (degradation of THC into CBN is what turns trics amber) for narcotic effect may be concerned about this. For them, adding either UVB or far red is a must to get that effect.

I believe its not a problem because it means degradatioon of THC is way slower wo UVB and/or far red. And at the end, most MJ growers are interested in THC production the most. The "problem" is just we are used to calculate harvest time by seeing the rate of trics ambering, and it seems we need new references when using light sources wo UBV or far red.

But trics taking longer to become cloudy is a problem, as it points out that THC synthesis is being slower. But we have found that this is way more strain dependent that the no ambering issue.

I want to carry some experiments about this in the near future so I chime in when I start it. Oldmac, if you think worth to talk about what to test each grower, im fully open to somewhat syncronize experiments with all the people involved.

Im trying to get some way to analyze cannabinoid's profiles in order to get more complete conclusions. I think now that we know that THC synthesis and degradation is affected by light spectrum, and which wavebands do it the most, to determine it with more accuracy: comparing the final THC content of clones growing with and wo UVB and the degradation rate of THC to CBN under same conditions.

wow, that's a lot of food for thought, knna. I've always heard that plants grown without or with less UVB have less total trichomes, where plants that receive supplemental UVB have more "sugar" on them and are generally considered more potent. I wasn't as aware of a relationship between delayed THC/Cannabinoid ripening/degradation and lack of UVB, which could be an explanation of the lack of potency in buds grown without UVB. I've also heard people argue that despite UVB enhancement & plants having more trichomes, that does not necessarily make them more potent. It would be interesting to look into the details of the circumstances of the grows of the people who reported these various phenomena. Has anyone else noticed increased ripening/degradation of the active agents when in the presence of UVB? It would add another prong to the testing possibly - first, the relationship between UVB & potency, the relationship between UVB & the total amount of trichomes & third, UVB & it's effect on the rate of ripening/degradation of trichomes.

[oldmac]

I want to carry some experiments about this in the near future so I chime in when I start it. Oldmac, if you think worth to talk about what to test each grower, im fully open to somewhat syncronize experiments with all the people involved.

Im trying to get some way to analyze cannabinoid's profiles in order to get more complete conclusions. I think now that we know that THC synthesis and degradation is affected by light spectrum, and which wavebands do it the most, to determine it with more accuracy: comparing the final THC content of clones growing with and wo UVB and the degradation rate of THC to CBN under same conditions.

Glad you stumbled on the thread knna! It's always good to have your input. This thread abt UVb use is really just an extension of light theory, and wavelenghts that effect a plant's life. Sorta goes hand in hand with LEDs the way I see it.

Would like to have you join in an experiment, the more input the better. The one experiment I really would like to see is the one Rusty started but could not finish; using UVb right from the beginning with rooted clones. It might be possible to see improvement in tric production. I have already seen the difference UVb can make in just the final 2 weeks of flowering as far as getting to cloudy then amber. Without UVb my run got cloudy slowly and never, even with an extra week+ never turned amber. The light I am using in my personal grow is based on Red Cree's and 2700k T5's, so far red is lacking.

I would love to be able to quantify THC and CBN levels, short of having a lab run samples I'm not sure how we can do it. Hell, I haven't been able to quantify how much UVb I'm using and that should be relatively easy. I'm currently looking for an inexpesive UV meter so I can put some sort of reference to it.

I look forward to anything you can add to this subject. :D

[oldmac]

wow, that's a lot of food for thought, knna. I've always heard that plants grown without or with less UVB have less total trichomes, where plants that receive supplemental UVB have more "sugar" on them and are generally considered more potent. I wasn't as aware of a relationship between delayed THC/Cannabinoid ripening/degradation and lack of UVB, which could be an explanation of the lack of potency in buds grown without UVB. I've also heard people argue that despite UVB enhancement & plants having more trichomes, that does not necessarily make them more potent. It would be interesting to look into the details of the circumstances of the grows of the people who reported these various phenomena. Has anyone else noticed increased ripening/degradation of the active agents when in the presence of UVB? It would add another prong to the testing possibly - first, the relationship between UVB & potency, the relationship between UVB & the total amount of trichomes & third, UVB & it's effect on the rate of ripening/degradation of trichomes.

Hi Apolonia,

I held the belief that using UVb would increase trichome production and increase potency. My first experiment without UVb showed no difference in tric production. That plus trying to get trichomes' on the leaves of a cancer strain I grow called "apricot" sorta proved to me that trichome production is a result of genetics as opposed to UVb use. I still believe it will increase potency as witnessed by getting to amber trics with it and not being able to without it. Tho the difference between all cloudy and 25% amber was slight as far as potency, there was some difference.

The biggest surprise I got was how thin the leaves where without UVb during flowering. With UVb use during the entire flower period, the leaves were alot fatter. I acutally lost some finished and manicured weight without UVb, and it did not come back with just 2 weeks use at finish. But keep in mind I only ran one strain, (plus tried everything on another) so my results may be of limited value. Hence, trying to recruit others to experiment.:D

BTW: I think the UVb you are using, and the time and distance is very good.
In my personal grow, I use it for 4 hrs in middle of photoperiod and the distance varies slightly.

[Dogznova]

I think now that we know that THC synthesis and degradation is affected by light spectrum.

Degradation is affected by light spectrum... This is correct.. Far Red works best for this effect..

THC synthesis.... Is more about time factors...

:thumbsup:

[Weezard]

Degradation is affected by light spectrum... This is correct.. Far Red works best for this effect..

THC synthesis.... Is more about time factors...

:thumbsup:

Aloha Dogz.

Please explain that statement in more detail.:confused:

So, us simple folk can grasp it.:stoned:

Weezard

[Dogznova]

What's up Weez....


I believe only medical users requiring enough CBN (degradation of THC into CBN is what turns trics amber) for narcotic effect may be concerned about this. For them, adding either UVB or far red is a must to get that effect.

The statement I made below was just answering to kana post...
Degradation is affected by light spectrum... This is correct.. Far Red works best for this effect..

Is this what you are talking about..:thumbsup:

[Weezard]

What's up Weez....



The statement I made below was just answering to kana post...
Degradation is affected by light spectrum... This is correct.. Far Red works best for this effect..

Is this what you are talking about..:thumbsup:

It is.

What's far-red got to do with THC degradation?
That would be completely new information.
At least, to me, and a handfull of udders.
Mebbe 'splain it to me, an' I'll tel da brudders.:cool:

Here it is, post Hallowe'en.
Salmayo's nowhere to be seen.
No astounding revealations from da Mars guy?
Da martians lef' da building?
Why not? Dey can fly.
And walk on water, or so I've read.
Maybe just can't find dere thread.;):stoned::stoned::stoned:


Drat!
Now we gotta keep muckin' about the old-fashioned way.


Provide for their needs, harvest when ready:hippy::rastasmoke:.:D


Howzit be, Nephew?
I just havin' fun wit you.
I know dat "you no make da rule"
You jus' applies 'em. Dat be :cool:.
:D
Weeze

[Dogznova]

Weez your funny.. I can't understand half of what you wrote... I guess that's the joke...

Sal's had a broken wrist and from what I understand he's not been able to type so much..

The funny thing is I just got done reading the 1st edition of the Martian Method Manuel... I think it's being sent to HT and some other people before it's released to the public.. Sal will be around soon.. I don't know if he will be in this tread or not..

My statement is based on my uncle and I using clear inc's during our Day Time as a far red source and more specifically (clear halogen inc's) for our trich production and ripping needs (turning trich's from cloudy to amber).. But none of this is realy talking about the Martian method thou.. Just far red or uvb supplemental lighting..:thumbsup:

[Apollonia]

Hey lads!

I found a study on how THC is produced in the plant (http://www.gardenscure.com/420/harvesting-drying-storage/83247-trichomes-process-turning-amber.html) at the garden's cure. Here's the part that relates directly to UVB:


Another stress to which plants are subject results from their daily exposure to sunlight. While necessary to sustain photosynthesis, natural light contains biologically destructive ultraviolet radiation. This selective pressure has apparently affected the evolution of certain defenses, among them, a chemical screening functionally analogous to the pigmentation of human skin. A preliminary investigation (Pate 1983) indicated that, in areas of high ultraviolet radiation exposure, the UV-B (280-315 nm) absorption properties of THC may have conferred an evolutionary advantage to Cannabis capable of greater production of this compound from biogenetic precursor CBD. The extent to which this production is also influenced by environmental UV-B induced stress has been experimentally determined by Lydon et al. (1987). Their experiments demonstrate that under conditions of high UV-B exposure, drug-type Cannabis produces significantly greater quantities of THC. They have also demonstrated the chemical lability of CBD upon exposure to UV-B (Lydon and Teramura 1987), in contrast to the stability of THC and CBC. However, studies by Brenneisen (1984) have shown only a minor difference in UV-B absorption between THC and CBD, and the absorptive properties of CBC proved considerably greater than either. Perhaps the relationship between the cannabinoids and UV-B is not so direct as first supposed. Two other explanations must now be considered. Even if CBD absorbs on par with THC, in areas of high ambient UV-B, the former compound may be more rapidly degraded. This could lower the availability of CBD present or render it the less energetically efficient compound to produce by the plant. Alternatively, the greater UV-B absorbency of CBC compared to THC and the relative stability of CBC compared to CBD might nominate this compound as the protective screening substance. The presence of large amounts of THC would then have to be explained as merely an accumulated storage compound at the end of the enzyme-mediated cannabinoid pathway. However, further work is required to resolve the fact that Lydon's (1985) experiments did not show a commensurate increase in CBC production with increased UV-B exposure.

And here's the conclusion of said study:


Although the chemistry of Cannabis has come under extensive investigation, more work is needed to probe the relationship of its resin to biotic and abiotic factors in the environment. Glandular trichomes are production sites for the bulk of secondary compounds present. It is probable that the cannabinoids and associated terpenes serve as defensive agents in a variety of antidessication, antimicrobial, antifeedant and UV-B pigmentation roles. UV-B selection pressures seem responsible for the distribution of THC-rich Cannabis varieties in areas of high ambient radiation, and may have influenced the evolution of an alternate biogenetic pathway from CBG to THC in some of these strains. Though environmental stresses appear to be a direct stimulus for enhanced chemical production by individual plants, it must be cautioned that such stresses may also skew data by hastening development of the highly glandular flowering structures. Future studies will require careful and representative sampling to assure meaningful results.

Further down the thread, a post or two away from the one that quotes the study there is another post by the same poster with data from a different study, I've included the poster's conclusion/summary as well:


One more slice of worthless data from the dusty library.


â?? Returning to the more orthodox version of the cannabinoid biosynthesis, the role of ultraviolet light should be reemphasized. It seems apparent that ultraviolet light, normally supplied in abundance by sunlight, takes part in the conversion of CBD acid to THC acids. Therefore, the lack *Carlton Thrner 1979: personal communication. of ultraviolet light in indoor growing situations could account for the limited psychoactivity of Cannabis grown under artificial lights. Light energy has been collected and utilized by the plant in a long series of reactions resulting in the formation of THC acids. Farther along the pathway begins the formation of degradation products not metabolically produced by the living plant. These cannabinoid acids are formed through the progressive degradation of THC acids to CBN acid (cannabinolic acid) and other cannabinoid acids. The degradation is accomplished primarily by heat and light and is not enzymatically controlled by the plant. CBN is also suspected of synergistic modification of the psychoactivity of the primary cannabinoids, THCs. The cannabinoid balance between CBC, CBD, THC, and CBN is determined by genetics and maturation. THC production is an ongoing process as long as the glandular trichome remains active. Variations in the level of THC in the same trichome as it matures are the result of THC acid being broken down to CBN acid while CBD acid is being converted to THC acid. If the rate of THC biosynthesis exceeds the rate of THC breakdown, the THC level in the trichome rises; if the breakdown rate is faster than the rate of biosynthesis, the THC level drops. Clear or slightly amber transparent resin is a sign that the glandular trichome is still active. As soon as resin secretion begins to slow, the resins will usually polymerize and harden. During the late floral stages the resin tends to darken to a transparent amber color. If it begins to deteriorate, it first turns translucent and then opaque brown or white. Near-freezing temperatures during maturation will often result in opaque white resins. During active secretion, THC acids are constantly being formed from CBD acid and breaking down into CBN acid. â??

If I was going to break all this down into a few sentences it would read like this:

The resin gland produces cannabinoids that are converted into THC. During the active cycle of cannabinoid production the glands will appear clear or cloudy. As the plant matures and the production cycle slows the glands will change color to amber. This is caused from environmental influences, tempeture and light. The major influence on the amber color would be the lack of conversion from cannabinoids CBD and CBN into THC. You can draw your own conclusions as to why, my theroy is as the plant matures it slows in cannabinoid production and the UVB radition has less cannabinoids to convert and starts to degrade the resin - hense the color change.

Both posts come courtesy of a poster on the Garden's Cure named 'cidium' so thank you, cidium wherever you are for typing out that data. Maybe this will be useful to us.

[Apollonia]

Sal's had a broken wrist and from what I understand he's not been able to type so much..

My statement is based on my uncle and I using clear inc's during our Day Time as a far red source and more specifically (clear halogen inc's) for our trich production and ripping needs (turning trich's from cloudy to amber).. But none of this is realy talking about the Martian method thou.. Just far red or uvb supplemental lighting..:thumbsup:

Sorry to hear about the malady there, broken wrists can be a real nuissance :(

Dogsnova, would you say far red is as effective as UVB when it come to trichome production AND ripening? If so, I wonder if my Super HPS SolarMax behind tempered glass has enough Far Red to cloud the trichs & produce sufficient trichomes and UVB supplemental lighting only useful for accelerated ambering. As I understand it now after taking in all this information is THC (cloudy) is formed more by maturation via time, the plant's own biological clock so to speak than radiation, but cannabinol production (the amber couchlock) is highly influenced by factors that stress the plant as it is the degradation of THC which produces these compounds - such as far red and UVB lighting. Would you care to expound a little on your thoughts? I'd love to hear more about your observations when you have the time.

As far as I can see, LEDs seem to produce copious amounts of trichomes which I believe may be due to the "gentleness" of LED lighting as compared to hotter, more stressful forms of light which degrade the trichomes faster. I tentatively put forth that LEDs may not actually produce more trichomes, but preserve more glandular heads in tact leading more trichome heads, leading to more potency, etc. This is just supposition on my part, I defer to more experienced heads.

[Dogznova]

Apollonia... Salmayo turned me on to far red, more specifically supplemental (clear inc's) for the use of far red in a typical 12/12 flower.

I think I have seen you talk to him on the TY forum. So I'm sure you understand the smarts coming from that direction.

[Dogznova]

Dogsnova, would you say far red is as effective as UVB when it come to trichome production AND ripening? Clear Inc's as a far red source....Yes...... I can't afford 730nm LED to try them out. Sorry not much testing on that front.


As far as I can see, LEDs seem to produce copious amounts of trichomes which I believe may be due to the "gentleness" of LED lighting as compared to hotter, more stressful forms of light which degrade the trichomes faster.
It's been our experience over here that LED's also increased trich production, But so did going from metro mix (dirt) to a hydro setup. There is alot of ways to increase trich production IMO.

LED,Far Red and Hydro has been some of our most noticeable trich production tools. If your familiar with salmayo's Martian Method... It uses the first two and explodes the trich production. But that's a whole different tread..LOL
...

Great post Apollonia...:thumbsup:

[Weezard]

"As far as I can see, LEDs seem to produce copious amounts of trichomes which I believe may be due to the "gentleness" of LED lighting as compared to hotter, more stressful forms of light which degrade the trichomes faster. I tentatively put forth that LEDs may not actually produce more trichomes, but preserve more glandular heads in tact leading more trichome heads, leading to more potency, etc. "

Wow!
Superb posts!:cool:
I'm impressed and humbled.

Mahalo nui!
Weeze

[Dogznova]

Ok here is the 1st edition of the PAD manual. You can find it at the Temporal Photonics page at MySpace . Just click on the pic link.. Here is the link Enjoy:thumbsup:

MySpace - Temporal Photonics - 17 - Male - CHICO, California - myspace.com/temporalphotonics (http://www.myspace.com/temporalphotonics)

[oldmac]

Hey Dogznova,

Thank you so much for posting the link to the PAD manual.:thumbsup: I read thru it qiuckly this AM and it certianly has me thinking! I think I need to read it a few more times, to understand it.

For everyone interested in the UVb stuff, I just came across a paper from a couple of years age by Joe Knuc (alias) entitled "An elaboration on the phytochemical process that makes THC" very interesting reading. :) -oldmac

[Dogznova]

This is great Oldmac.. But I think the PAD Manuel totally disputes that article.

Here is one example....

(c)The photoperiodic response is controlled by phytochrome.

I think this is incorrect!!! If you have been following along with sal and all his post (like I have). He has pointed out that his research has proved that the photoperiodic response in the MJ plant is mostly controlled by the Blue light duration. Not phytochrome!

Here is another example of the PAD manuel totally disputing that article..... The PAD Manuel uses KNOW uvb light at all and can double the THC content at a minimum by using 24 hours of light...

My next post........ I will tell you what the manuel doesn't say about our favorite plant.:thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

THE OPTIMUM TIME FACTORS FOR THC SYNTHESIS IN CANNBIS IS BETWEEM 1.3 AND 2.0, WITH PEAK THC SYNTHESIS OCCURING AT APPROXIMATELY AT A TIME FACTOR OF 1.6 TO 1.7, AND THIS HOLDS TRUE FOR BOTH LIGHT AND DARK CANNABIS ACTIVITY IN ALL THREE RACES OF CANNABIS (SATIVA, INDICA AND RUDERALIS).

These are the results of Temporal Photonics private research, which is the most advanced and extensive research ever done on THC production.

Let's explain exactly HOW SIGNIFICANT this is. Standard Indoor Darkness (SID) has a Time Factor of 1.0 and little THC synthesis occurs under such circomstances. Standard Artificial Light (SAL) such as HPS and typical Metal Halides have a Time Factor of approximately 4.0 and little THC synthesis occurs under such circomstances. What this means is that standard 12/12 type indoor growing environments only seem to bring out about 15% of the Photodependant production of THC from Cannabis.

Specifically what this means is that this patent pending process has demostrated the ability to double (or more) the potency of THC in Cannabis and this process is the only one that allows this to be done during the otherwise wasted "Period of Uninterrupted Darkness" needed to flower Cannabis.

[headshake]

i haven't had a chance to read either of those reports yet, but i'm trying to keep up and follow along!

-shake

[oldmac]

This is great Oldmac.. But I think the PAD Manuel totally disputes that article.

Here is one example....

(c)The photoperiodic response is controlled by phytochrome.

I think this is incorrect!!! If you have been following along with sal and all his post (like I have). He has pointed out that his research has proved that the photoperiodic response in the MJ plant is mostly controlled by the Blue light duration. Not phytochrome!

Here is another example of the PAD manuel totally disputing that article..... The PAD Manuel uses KNOW uvb light at all and can double the THC content at a minimum by using 24 hours of light...

My next post........ I will tell you what the manuel doesn't say about our favorite plant.:thumbsup:

I was just having a discussion (read argument) with my partner about PAD and what we might do with it. One of the problems we have is the lack of info that has been forthcomming. It would be nice to see some numbers for the technique and results of it's use. Even without it, we are extremely interested in it, and have made the decision to build a new LED light that has the reds and blues on separate circuts to utilize the advanced PAD technique.

As to photochrome, these protiens play off 660nm light vs. 730nm light and are responceable for the under canopy stretch etc. From what I read in the PAD manual that is exactly one of the plant's functions that are being exploited by PAD. More possibly photoperiod is more a function of blue light, but that 730 is some sort of plant trigger.

While I believe that trichome rippening can be accomplished without UVb (Dreaded Hermie hit amber trics with just red and blue!) we have had a few experiments here that clearly shows it's effect on trichome maturing. I still have a 2gm/plant finished weight differential if I don't use UVb thru out flowering so it's effect may be more then just turning trichomes amber.

I'm looking forward to more info and finished numbers to see how fast or deep we jump into PAD.;)

[headshake]

.....and the plot thickens......

hope you had a great holiday old mac...and the rest of you of course!


-shake

[seventhchild]

GE Reveal 100-Watt Halogen 2-Year Life General Purpose A19 (1 Pack) - 100ACL/H/RVL-TP6 at The Home Depot (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xi0/R-100493705/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053) ..... .*UCKING LIGHT BULBS....*AMN finally a new use for something old,Thanks and a high five for the links and info.so how useful do you think these would be for the last 3-5 weeks of flowering?I flower under 3-400w HPS until the last 3-5 weeks and then they enter the 400w MH section of my flowering room. 15 years ago i started paying attention to the trics and saw that most were still clear at harvest time under 100% HPS . adding the MH has allowed me to achieve the 50/50 clear/cloudy ratio i like but i would like to shorten the final ripening time.also I notice the bulb you link to is a "enhanced spectrum" bulb doesn't this mean it has added blue?i can,t seem to find a source for wavelength charts for this or any halogen bulbs.

[seventhchild]

BTW,perpetual harvest 2week rotation all 4 lights above the same table with MH bleeding into HPS sections and vise versa.

[oldmac]

Hey seventhchild,

Hopefully Dogz can answer that question about the bulb, I have not used it enough yet, in a controlled enviorment to confirm it's effects on trichome production/maturity, yet.

I can tell you that bulb puts out a large amount of far red (730nm) light.:thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

So how useful do you think these would be for the last 3-5 weeks of flowering? I would like to shorten the final ripening time. Also I notice the bulb you link to is a "enhanced spectrum" bulb doesn't this mean it has added blue? I can't seem to find a source for wavelength charts for this or any halogen bulbs.

Yes these bulbs will work good for the last 3-5 weeks of flowering. When I was told to use clear inc's for a far red 730nm spectrum.. I wasn't told how to correctly use them so to speak. I thought I was supposed to run them at the same time as the HID lights were on. But when I tried to run 300w of inc's at the same time the 400w HID was on, the room was way too hot with 700 watts running as you could imagine. It turns out of course I was doing it wrong...LOL I have since been able to read some stuff. This might sound crazy but I now run the 300 watts of clear inc's for the first 6 hours of my flowering time then I run the 400 watt HPS HID for the last 6 hours for a total of 12on 12off. This is what's now called Rauber's Substitution Method. This works very well for me. I have also started mixing in some 27K cfl's and pulled some of the clear inc's with the first 6 hours of light. This is because the strain I'm currently working with, it seems the 27k cfl's increase the calyx to leaf ratio and the clear halogen inc's promote good trich production and internal plant clock speed. Here is another trick to do with clear inc's the same bird told me. Use clear inc's only the last 3 to 5 days of flowering to speed up ripening. This makes the diamonds sparkle even more on the flowers and brings out the flavor. There is a drawback to doing this. Plants that are ripened like this will not re-veg. If you are going to try clear inc's only for the last 3-5 days of flowering for a quick ripening make sure you plane on pulling them and not re-vegging them..

I use the bulbs I showed you in the link. Halogen bulbs have a little more 730nm well, they have a lot more 730nm IMO but standard clear inc's can also be used. As far as the "enhanced spectrum" goes. It was the only halogen I could find that screwed into a standard light socket so I grabbed it. Turns out IMO they work very good. I can find a halogen spectrum chart I think but it's not for this enhanced spectrum. It's on this board in Mother 2nd Martian tread. hope this helps.. Hope everyone had a good holiday.

[smoke_and_fly]

Hey Weezard,

Thanks for clearing up the confusion I had about the leaf CELLS turning on edge. I really thought you where trying to tell me the leaf edges were turning thier edges to the light, and I really did not see how that was possible. The thykaloid disk packs makes sooo much more sense now. Thanks for that.

I found reference in a Rutgers' paper to an increase in "green leafy plant material" due in part to high levels of light activivity or "increases of UVb light", mentioned in a paper dealing with CO2 utilization.

Yo Rusty,

Big thanks for the posts, there is little doubt in my mind that trichomes are where the magic happens and are not designed as plant defense mechanisms, but are in fact designed to collect and condense light (specifically UVb) and act as cellular factories to produce THC.

Your friends idea of using UVb during veggative growth is most interesting of all from a usefullness angle. It makes sense that since the cannabiniods or at least thier percursors all start off during the veggative stage, UVb may play a role earlier in the plants developement then I had thought. I need to do some more reading (right here even to start) and digest this some more.
yet another reason to start outdoors i have always thought plants grown outdoors then switched to indoors are more potent to an extent this is obviously the science behind it
this site is by far the most informative website i have ever invested my time in
our members have infinate
knowledge of the herb

[seventhchild]

I now run the 300 watts of clear inc's for the first 6 hours of my flowering time then I run the 400 watt HPS HID for the last 6 hours for a total of 12on 12off. is this just to control heat/energy usage or is it needed for for the plants to respond properly to these wavelengths? to put it differently...is my HPS/MH wasted while the INC's are on?

[Dutch Pimp]

Quess who light bleached the fuck out of his two plants...3 weeks into 12/12?...:rolleyes:

any remedies?..besides moving further from the light?...I took the CMH out and switched to HPS? ...two other grows...the CMH never did that before?

I would post a pic...but,... I am ashamed....:stoned:..I screwed the pooch on this one...:D

Too Much UVb?

[oldmac]

Hey DP,

Sorry to hear that, bleaching the ho's make them look so cheap.;)

Not sure if it is excess UVb or more from the concentration of red being too close. I think Weezard managed to light bleach some girls under LED, very specific light wavelength's, just red and blue and he uses no UVb. So you can do that without UVb.

Not sure there is much you can do, just hope for some new leaf growth and an improvement in appearence. And don't put that CMH so close next time, I think that's easy to do since I believe they run cooler then HPS.:thumbsup:

[oldmac]

yet another reason to start outdoors i have always thought plants grown outdoors then switched to indoors are more potent to an extent this is obviously the science behind it
this site is by far the most informative website i have ever invested my time in
our members have infinate
knowledge of the herb

High there smoke_and_fly,

It's a interesting concept to start outdoors then flower indoors. Opposite of what Weezard has been doing, when his girls are done he takes them outside and gives them a few hours of tanning in the mid day sun. Major advantage he has is living in Hawaii. I've been hoping someone would do the experiment Rusty had proposed, starting rooted clones under UVb to see the effects on it's use from the beginning. Maybe we could convince Weez to try starting outdoors then bringing them in.:D

[Weezard]

Quess who light bleached the fuck out of his two plants...3 weeks into 12/12?...:rolleyes:

any remedies?..besides moving further from the light?...I took the CMH out and switched to HPS? ...two other grows...the CMH never did that before?

I would post a pic...but,... I am ashamed....:stoned:..I screwed the pooch on this one...:D

Too Much UVb?

Say it ain't so, bro.:(

You are not alone.
Switching to HPS should help but might cost another day.

Growth will resume in a few days either way.
Gonna be jus' fine:cool:

The Peroxide blonde tops?
I leave them on as ornamentation.:hippy:
I calls 'em da bimbo buds.:D

Aloha
Weeze

[Weezard]

Hey DP,

Sorry to hear that, bleaching the ho's make them look so cheap.;)

Not sure if it is excess UVb or more from the concentration of red being too close. I think Weezard managed to light bleach some girls under LED, very specific light wavelength's, just red and blue and he uses no UVb. So you can do that without UVb.

If it's not IR, I'm sure it's the blue.
Higher frequencies pack more energy.
My girls only bleached under the blue leds though some were closer to the reds.


Not sure there is much you can do, just hope for some new leaf growth and an improvement in appearence. And don't put that CMH so close next time, I think that's easy to do since I believe they run cooler than HPS.:thumbsup:

Yup! even easier with leds 'cause there's less radiated heat.
Also worth knowing, that MJ stops growing at around 91K lux.
Here's another case where overkill will hurt you.
Just like water, and nutes;
"More than enough, is too much!" - me.

Keep yer toes warm.
Weeze

[Weezard]

High there smoke_and_fly,

It's a interesting concept to start outdoors then flower indoors. Opposite of what Weezard has been doing, when his girls are done he takes them outside and gives them a few hours of tanning in the mid day sun. Major advantage he has is living in Hawaii. I've been hoping someone would do the experiment Rusty had proposed, starting rooted clones under UVb to see the effects on it's use from the beginning. Maybe we could convince Weez to try starting outdoors then bringing them in.:D

Would do.:)
But no can!:(

The other advantage to living Hawaii, is constant ~12 hour days.
Any long day strain started outdoors here goes autoflower.
Even on June 21st our nights are too long.

Course I could start some outdoors and supplement with 2 hours of light in the morning or evening.
If, I had a big enough bloom room.:(

That, and I'm convinced that UVb is more harmful than helpful in a vegging plant.
I like to leave the risky:weedpoke: to folks that can better afford the loss:D
How about it, 7th?! You game?

What I've settled on, is a LED veg. to half the height I want. Then in the sun with a UVa-b filter of polycarbonate to stretch, fatten-up buds and pile-on the trichs without frying them back off.

Then out in the full sun for that Coppertone tan.
Works a treat for "tailoring" of the high!:stoned:

Now have a "spice rack" of different "side effects"
Come try some.:thumbsup::jointsmile:

Aloha,
Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

It's a interesting concept to start outdoors then flower indoors.Been many years since I tried that (usually precipitated by early winter or a compromised grow area). Bugs that were a minor annoyance outside sometimes became major infestations when their plant hosts were brought indoors, though. I remember that much...:jointsmile:

[Dogznova]

is this just to control heat/energy usage or is it needed for for the plants to respond properly to these wavelengths

Yes the HID is very strong and I could not see justifying 300w of inc's that I couldn't tell were even on. I did not have privilege to reading the manual at that time. Once I was able to read the manual (witch was a few months before the link was posted in this tread) I quickly figured out why it's not worth running the inc's at the same time as the HPS was on...... Time factor manipulation..........It's not easy manipulating the HID's time factor when it's on. It's much easer manipulating the plants 24 hour time factor.

So let's explain some Time Factor stuff as I see it. THC is at it's highest production with a time factor of 1.6 to 1.8. If you look at table 4.1 in the manual you will see that the sun has a time factor of 1.7. Indoors with the Martian Method you can run an average time factor of aprox 1.8. Quite the trick if you ask me and lets not forget what 17 hours of 660/730 trichome pumping light will do.

HID has a time factor of 3.6. Not much THC being produced here. Although most people would beg to differ.. They just never smoked PAD weed before. LOL. Anyway back to the HID, in order to get the HID's time factor down to roughly 1.8 ish or hell even 2.0 when the light is on is beyond my reach. IMO the amount of clear inc's that would need to be used when the HID was on is not what I wanted. HID is strong all the way down to the floor and it's hard to manipulate it's time factor. Lucky for use the plant uses a 24 hour cycle so there is plenty of time to pick and chose when to manipulate the plants time factor.

The Martian Method uses the whole 24 hour day. If we are just talking about time factors here the Martian Method uses a 425/660nm spectrum (1/2 hour combined on then 425nm only for a 1/2 hour on) with a 2.1 time factor for 7 hours a day and then uses a PAD lighting cycle of 660/730nm (1/2 hour on of 660nm then 1/2 hour on of 730nm) with a 1.4 time factor 17 hours a day with a combined 24 hour time factor of roughly 1.8.. You can do this above method with HID and it's best to do it with metal halide. The metal halide replaces the LED 425/660nm part of the equation but it's not as good for THC production but it works great for bulk IMO. If you were to look at the above equation using HID instead of 425/660nm LED it would go something like this. Using HID with a 3.9 time factor for 7 hours a day and PAD lighting using 660/730 spectrums in 1/2 hour on cycles each with a 1.4 time factor for 17 hours a day you could come up with a combined 24 hour time factor of somewhere around 2.5 ish I would guess. This is still a much better THC result then just a HID 3.9 time factor for 12 hours.

Doing a standard 12/12 type of flower like I do. You only get what you can get. I manipulate half of the 12 hours I have the lights on. It's the simplest method. So doing rauber's substation method fits me good. I work with an already strong strain under standard HID 12/12 type of flowering. So manipulating 6 hours of the 12 hours the lights are on gives me a better result then a standard 12/12 HPS flower. I would recommend playing around with the first 6 hours of your on time with clear inc's and do like I did throw in some 27k cfl's. That is another thing CFL's on the other hand as you know are not as strong as HID so it much easer to manipulate the CFL's time factor when they are on. I have found that I can run CFL's and inc's at the same time and get very good results. I also have run just straight inc's for the first 6 hours. IMO it all depends on the strain I guess.. Wow that's alot for me.. Time to smoke..



to put it differently...is my HPS/MH wasted while the INC's are on?

No your inc's are wasted..

[seventhchild]

I'm convinced that UVb is more harmful than helpful in a vegging plant.
I like to leave the risky:weedpoke: to folks that can better afford the loss
How about it, 7th?! You game? not for UV! All 12 of my parents children have bad eye sight , I don't want to be the first to go blind . I have chosen far red to experiment with.

[Weezard]

not for UV! All 12 of my parents children have bad eye sight , I don't want to be the first to go blind . I have chosen far red to experiment with.

Good move!:)

I'll be watching your far red trial.
I was not impressed with mine, but I went outdoors for flowering under UV filters, and now have free far red to burn.;)
So, I didn't really give it a full trial indoors.
Do you plan a side by side? Some with, some without?

Just point me at it.

Aloha,
Weezard

[seventhchild]

I flower under 3-400w HPS until the last 3-5 weeks and then they enter the 400w MH section of my flowering room.
This is how i grown the past few years and even though its worked well it is time for a change [mid-life crisis?].First i must decide on a far red light source but am having trouble finding light charts. then i will have to decide how to space the new lights among the old for even distribution. then wire in a new contacter and timer. DAMN no wonder i haven't changed my setup in so long.
anyway to answer your question Weezard i think a side by side followed by multiple dual chamber bio essay tests would be the best way to gage results and is how i hope to do it.

[seventhchild]

I use the bulbs I showed you in the link. Halogen bulbs have a little more 730nm well, they have a lot more 730nm IMO but standard clear inc's can also be used. As far as the "enhanced spectrum" goes. It was the only halogen I could find that screwed into a standard light socket so I grabbed it. Turns out IMO they work very good. I can find a halogen spectrum chart I think but it's not for this enhanced spectrum. It's on this board in Mother 2nd Martian tread. hope this helps.. Hope everyone had a good holiday. I was unable to find the chart in the 2nd martian tread but i did find this one but it stops at 700nm. does anyone have a link for incandescent spectrum charts? also..... it seems that if you change the voltage going to an INC you change its color....110 volts gives a different spectrum than 120 volts ....

[Weezard]

Excellent!:thumbsup:
I'm in.
For a 730 nm. source, it's hard to beat Incandescent "black lights"
They put out a tiny bit of UVa and a relatively enormous amount of Far red.
They are cheap and available from Wallyworld.
Note that they emit considerable IR as well and the bulb gets very hot.
Might require more cooling.

Aloha and mahalo,
Wee zard

[mainegrown]

i have always wondered about those black lights.. but i read somewhere that they are only good for about 100 hrs and that is what like 9 days of flowering?? not a very cost effective way to hit em with 730 nm..
i may be wrong but thats what the GE site said..
~MG

[Weezard]

i have always wondered about those black lights.. but i read somewhere that they are only good for about 100 hrs and that is what like 9 days of flowering?? not a very cost effective way to hit em with 730 nm..
i may be wrong but thats what the GE site said..
~MG

I did not know that.
Thanks MG.:)

Makes sense.
They drive the filament hard to raise the color temperature to get some UV, then filter out most of the visible light which makes it run very hot.
Course you don't run the 730nm. source for more than 20 minutes before, and 20 minutes after the main lights.
(Leaving them on with the 660nm. is counter productive.
As I understand it, the 730nm. is a phytochrome toggle of sorts, not an energy source.)
That's still only 150 days on average.:(

I wonder if wiring 2 of 'em in series would solve several problems at once. Hmmmm...:detective1:

Need some way to measure the Far red output.
Any suggestions? anybody?
Don't be shy.

Logic tells me there will still be plenty of far red at a lower voltage but almost no UV and less than half the heat.
(2 X R. = .5 X A., and, since V. is also halved, the W. per bulb is X .25!)
The spectral "curve" of these pups is more like a steep ramp.
Got one somewhere. I'll try to find it for ya.
Ah! Here 'tis;
[attachment=o234818]

L8r
W.



This is going to be an informative test.

Aloha, Y'all

Weeze

[seventhchild]

I wonder if wiring 2 of 'em in series would solve several problems at once. Hmmmm... or maybe a light dimmer? i'll put my meter on one today and see if the voltage lowers as i dim a bulb. but maybe an increase in voltage would be more productive in a regular INC or halagon ? your right need a way to measure far red
Course you don't run the 730nm. source for more than 20 minutes before, and 20 minutes after the main lights. Dogznova runs his for 6 hours ?

[Weezard]

or maybe a light dimmer? i'll put my meter on one today and see if the voltage lowers as i dim a bulb.

You probably won't get a true RMS reading.
A 'scope is more informative.
Basically, a home kine dimmer changes the total power applied to the load by turning the current on sooner, or later in the 60Hz sine wave.
Kind of a crude pulse width modulator.

but maybe an increase in voltage would be more productive in a regular INC or halagon ?

It would be certain to shorten their useful life and raise the color temperature.:D

your right need a way to measure far red . Dogznova runs his for 6 hours ?

Dogznova does a lot of interesting things.:D
Sometimes I doesn't foller him.
An' so far, that has worked out well.;) - chewed-up Pogo quote.

Jus' ribbin' ya dogz.;)

Seriously, unless you are going full-on Rauber, you need to do some reading about 730nm. usage.
Google is your friend here.:cool:

If you come up dry, I have some info stashed somewhere in this terrabyte of arcane and disorganized information.

Hey, OM! Have you got any Far red info for 7.
I love the on-topicness of it. UV? FR? "alla same kine":)

Aloha,
Wee.

[Weezard]

"Ditto"

[mainegrown]

hey weez i did some looking and i DO have the PAD manual...... but i dont have much/cant come up with much info on 730 nm light by itself.. :wtf:
maybe its just getting kinda late but i am stumped.. if you wanna send me some of that info i would love it man.. :)
i only have like 300 mb of info on growing and a dozen or so hard copy books that my mom gave me but it can be so hard to find the RIGHT info in all that mess :(


i am very interested in playing with some cool flowering games soon.. i am thinking that using clones is the only way to go about it. i have the space/time/materials (at least most of 'em ;) ) as well as the wish for some more info on how this fine plant grows, to go about some little experiments.. i was thinking that this would be a good use for a couple ounces of the herb..

i wonder what the 730 nm would do when backing up an LED array?? not only help to make it flower faster but to pack on more weight.. i have been thinking about some of the problems that are attributed to LED growing and people seem to find that it takes longer for the gurls to flower to completion.. would that be because the 660 nm liht has such a large time factor?? HPS is like 3.* but 660nm is like 5.5.. so.. any thoughts?
im winded and gotta smoke the bubbler but wish to hear what ya gotta say on this lil idea..
and again please hit me up to work out sending some info to me.. thanks
~MG

[Dogznova]

Remember... Black Lights are only used for the night time 730nm.. Clear Inc's are much better for day time 730.. Black lights or 730nm LED's are being used in the Martian Method's dark time...... Of course it's 17 to 20 hours of PAD darkness (depending on what cycle you want 12/12 11/13 or 10/14)....... Remember it's 1/2 hour on of 660nm then 1/2 hour on of Black lights or LED 730nm.

Here is an example... 17 hours of that combination of light 660/730 being cycled will give your plants the equivalent of 12 hours of darkness AND 5 hours of Day light. (Red 660/730 can do some strange things) Now take that 5 hours of day light that it gave you and add it to the 7 hours of 425-445nm/660nm (425nm blue dominant spectrum) and you have a 12/12 flower with aprox a 1.8 time factor using 24 hour of light...

WEEZ the reason I think that this info should be in this UV thread is.

That 660/730nm PAD light cycle from above..... Will out perform any UV-b bulb on the planet.. UV-B actually hurts the THC production not increases it.. UV-B IMO will increase trichomes.. But lots of trich don't mean lot's of THC ..I'm just saying.:thumbsup:

[potofgold]

great info here subscribed for sure. :thumbsup:

[seventhchild]

http://www.gelighting.com/na/business_lighting/education_resources/learn_about_light/imgs/distribution/small/reveal.jpg

[seventhchild]

http://www.gelighting.com/na/business_lighting/education_resources/learn_about_light/imgs/distribution/small/reveal.jpgthis revel bulb is emitting at both 660 and 730 so i should not use it right?i am leaning toward using HPS only on one side of my room and clear inc's and HPS on the other.800 watts of inc's only for 30 min than 800 watts HPS only for 11 hours than another 30 min of incs only on clones from four verities SOG style to test for differences in resin/tric production and maturity . what do ya'll think?

[mainegrown]

sounds good to me.. post pics and all that :thumbsup:


~MG a.k.a. le Maine développé

[Dogznova]

this revel bulb is emitting at both 660 and 730 so i should not use it right?i am leaning toward using HPS only on one side of my room and clear inc's and HPS on the other.800 watts of inc's only for 30 min than 800 watts HPS only for 11 hours than another 30 min of incs only on clones from four verities SOG style to test for differences in resin/tric production and maturity . what do ya'll think?

Yes that bulb looks good.. If you keep testing, I think you will see that you can run those inc's up to 6 hours and your HPS 6 hours and get good results.. Starting out with one hour of inc's is how I started...LOL... Now I'm up to 6 hours of inc's mixed with a small amount of low wattage 27k cfl's...It just keeps getting better...

It's what called "Rauber's Substitution Method" ..... Chapter 10 of the PAD manual... Good luck with your grow..:thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

After researching that bulb you posted.. It turns out that's the same bulb I use.....LOL....Thank's for the spectrum chart.. That's awesome.. No wonder the bulbs works so good.. The link I posted above was from Home depot. I couldn't find a chart for it... :thumbsup:

[Micsog]

what about blue cfl's?

[salmayo]

Nice thread!

Weez, I scanning as fast as I can right now, but I think you posted a comment about how hard BLB (Blacklight) Inc.'s filaments are run to produce more UV.

My research (not that I'm right, but) indicates that the filaments are identical and the only real difference the bulbs is the BLB glass (Wood's Glass) used in the outter envelope.

In other words the Far Red output of the BLB Inc.'s is basically the same as the Clear Inc.'s, the main difference in visible emission.

I dissagree with UV results as false Far Red positive possitives as the light sources used usually indicate. Far Red doesn't give hit and missed or "mostly" results.

I use what I personally have experience with. Considerring the cost of Clear Incandescents verses the cost and added complexity and DANGERs of ballasted UV lamps, I would suggest serious Qualitative growers get "EXPERIENCED" (Jimi Hendrix).

Gotta Run (crazy work load today).

Take Care, Sal.

[Weezard]

Howzit, Sal?
Good to see ya back.

I'm fairly sure about the thinner filament being used to push the color temp before filtering, though I have no actual facts to offer here.

It think it's what causes the relatively short life expectancy.
That, and the heat generated in the Wood's glass from filtering out the visible light,

'strue that 60Watts is 60 Watts, but running the filament hotter shifts the emitted wavelength towards UVa and, unfortunately, will shorten the life of the unit.

Clear incandescent lamps are indeed much cheaper, and longer lasting, but I was not sure of how to factor in all the visible light frequencies that come with.


Now, ya gotta help me out wit dis one.

"I dissagree with UV results as false Far Red positive possitives as the light sources used usually indicate.":(:wtf:

That went in my eye and is still spinning round in my skull.:(
Cognitive dissonance of the first water.
Darn near as bad as.

"If it had not been for my horse..." - Louis Black:D

And then there's;

"cost and added complexity and DANGERs of ballasted UV lamps"

I think ya lost me when ya switched subjects.
Party bulbs have no ballast, and I'm using the Sun as my UVb source.
Mebee slow down a tad so's us mere humans can try to follow it too.:rastasmoke:






Take yer time, brah, not critical.
I'm just tryin' to follow this for the science.
Last thing I need now is more, or stronger buds.:stoned:
Tough life, yah?:)

Aloha
Easily confused, Weeze

[Dogznova]

Sal don't run...LOL.. How you been. Was thinking about shooting you an email. Now your here I guess I don't have to.. I 'm looking to start a tread on 420 mag in the LED section.. I was wondering if maybeeee I could get some oversight with my tread over there when I start it...LOL.. I know your busy... But I'm a rookie...:rasta:

[Dogznova]

Weez.... I think he was referring to the Far Red comet you made a few post ago..The one that say's you didn't get much effect from Far Red .. Don't quote me though..:thumbsup:

The other part of his comet seems he is talking more directly about UV-B bulbs and the danger associated with them...I think this is what confused you (ballasted UV lamps).. I had to re-read it myself...

[salmayo]

Sal don't run...LOL.. How you been. Was thinking about shooting you an email. Now your here I guess I don't have to.. I 'm looking to start a tread on 420 mag in the LED section.. I was wondering if maybeeee I could get some oversight with my tread over there when I start it...LOL.. I know your busy... But I'm a rookie...:rasta:

Not till the end of next month, I'm in Civil court till then, but if you post a thread there I'll have to join the site and for some reason never got past that point with ICmag, but maybe 420 mag wont be repeat of that.

[salmayo]

I think it's just the heat retained in the bulb from the light filtering, but Wood's Glass and Quartz are UV transmissive and hard glasses (~borosilicate & Soda Lime Glasses) are UV absorptive, which is way standard hard glass outter envelopes block UV at least somewhat in standard bulb envelopes.

I'm sure the filaments run hotter on BLB bulbs the whole bulb seems to.

Running parallel BLB bulbs and gotta change allot.

Gotta run. Finish this one next time.

Take care, Sal.

[Dogznova]

Not till the end of next month, I'm in Civil court till then, but if you post a thread there I'll have to join the site and for some reason never got past that point with ICmag, but maybe 420 mag wont be repeat of that.
Would you rather I wait till the end of march?.... Icmag is a no go for me also...Not a very nice place IMO.....

[seventhchild]

all graphs are from this site Spectrographic charts - CandlePowerForums (http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=110795)[attachment=o236612] incandescent blacklight


[attachment=o236613] 117watt incandescent
[attachment=o236614]revel incandescent

[attachment=o236615]red incan rope light

[attachment=o236616]cfl blacklight

using the "Rauber's Substitution Method" would it be best to add the ican blacklight to the clear incans to balance the 660 and 730 or is there a preferred ratio ???

[seventhchild]

[attachment=o236623]

[attachment=o236624]

[attachment=o236628]blue party bulb

[attachment=o236629]osram 2700k cfl 9 watts

[attachment=o236630]red party bulb
limited to 5 uploads per post the blue party bulb appears to have more 730nm than the red bulb!!!

[salmayo]

Would you rather I wait till the end of march?....No that's fine, TP's not asking that.

[salmayo]

using the "Rauber's Substitution Method" would it be best to add the ican blacklight to the clear incans to balance the 660 and 730 or is there a preferred ratio ???

I'd say No.

Luckily Red Inc.'s alone and Clear Inc.'s alone provide a good ballance that is just a bit on the shady side of a Direct Sunlight spectrum, which is quite good for pigment synthesis, but it shifts to less desirable shady as is travels down paste the first layer of leaves.

Adding more Blacklight Inc.s (BLB's ~ Blacklight Blues) to the mix makes things shadier.

Adding Clear or Red Inc.'s to CFL's at a ratio of 1/3rd Watt Inc. per watt of CLF used, gives a more Redder than Direct Sunlight spectrum, which is actually better in my experience in general.

Preferred ratios, reveal the problem of personal preference on that one, but I prefer the Redder than Sunlight spectrums for Indoor light intensities compared to outdoor Direct Sunlight intensities.

[salmayo]

"I was not sure of how to factor in all the visible light frequencies that come with." In general - Their Blue is fairly low and not that cristical if you already have a strong Blue signal, Far Red tends to act a bit more than Red.




Gott run again.

[Dogznova]

No that's fine, TP's not asking that.
Sure I understand.. I would just like to make sure you can setup an account before I start a tread.. Just so I don't say something like "the master will be here to answer some questions" And then you not be able to get an account setup for what ever reason.. Thanks in advance for your time Sal.

[Dogznova]

I'd say No.

Luckily Red Inc.'s alone and Clear Inc.'s alone provide a good ballance that is just a bit on the shady side of a Direct Sunlight spectrum, which is quite good for pigment synthesis, but it shifts to less desirable shady as is travels down paste the first layer of leaves.

Adding Clear or Red Inc.'s to CFL's at a ratio of 1/3rd Watt Inc. per watt of CLF used, gives a more Redder than Direct Sunlight spectrum, which is actually better in my experience in general.

Preferred ratios, reveal the problem of personal preference on that one, but I prefer the Redder than Sunlight spectrums for Indoor light intensities compared to outdoor Direct Sunlight intensities.

Ya this is good info... I took out my red inc's and added clear halogen bulbs, Now I want to throw a few of the red inc's back in there.. I love a Redder than Direct Sunlight spectrum..LOL ....

[seventhchild]

Adding Clear or Red Inc.'s to CFL's at a ratio of 1/3rd Watt Inc. per watt of CLF used, I had not planned on using CFL'S . Do you suggest that ratio with HPS's? I am a little concerned about the lack of blue if I use an HPS/CLEAR INC combo......ok real damn nervous about it.......I've been using a MH to finish the crop for app 15 years,,,,,hard to let go.....anywho...should i be concerned about the lack of 420nm during flowering ??
[attachment=o236686] typical CFL

[attachment=o236687] typical incandescent
[attachment=o236688] HPS

[salmayo]

Yeh, the ballast comments were stuck in my head, someone posted or implied that Far Red was more complicated, dangerous and/or expensive and the cost of a clear Inc. just keeps sticking in my head on that one.

"Last thing I need now is more, or stronger buds.
Tough life, yah?" -- If only more people were sensitive to our plight.

I got kind of eclectice doing this one in three parts of jumping back and forth. Mixed me up a bit. Feel free to indicate anything I'm not touching upon.

Man I need a vacation other than sitting court!

[salmayo]

I had not planned on using CFL'S . Do you suggest that ratio with HPS's? I am a little concerned about the lack of blue if I use an HPS/CLEAR INC combo......ok real damn nervous about it.......I've been using a MH to finish the crop for app 15 years,,,,,hard to let go.....anywho...should i be concerned about the lack of 420nm during flowering ??


Equal wattage of Inc. to HPS.

Lack of Blue tends to be pro flower.

[Dogznova]

I had not planned on using CFL'S . Do you suggest that ratio with HPS's? I am a little concerned about the lack of blue if I use an HPS/CLEAR INC combo

Seventh... I do use a few 27k cfl's on my clear inc side of the 6/6/12 flowering schedule.. I have done it both ways. All clear inc's and a clear inc/27k cfl's mix. My strain likes the clear inc/27k cfl/HPS mix best.. It gives the flowers of this strain a better Calyx to Leaf ratio for what ever reason.. I have put other strains in the clear inc/27k cfl mix and it did not change the Calyx to Leaf ratio.. So IMO it's worth checking both ways to find out what your strain likes..:thumbsup:

BTW... I put all clear inc's in my air cooled hood....

[seventhchild]

ok , ya'll have eased my worries, Thank You. it seems such a simple thing adding red/farred .........it's about time............to add some incandescents.

[seventhchild]

but it shifts to less desirable shady as is travels down paste the first layer of leaves.wouldn't this cause uneven ripening?

[Dogznova]

wouldn't this cause uneven ripening?

Yes just like any other top lighting setup would..That why he was talking about putting inc's low in canopy as well. But low inc's are much trickier to cool IMO..

[Dogznova]

ok , ya'll have eased my worries, Thank You. it seems such a simple thing adding red/farred .........it's about time............to add some incandescents.

Ya I had to see this with my own eyes as well.. If you would of told me that using 6 hours of HPS then 6 hours clear inc's and I would get better results then using 12 hours of HPS. I would of told you "ya right"... But I'm afraid it's true. Better taste,smell,high,looks ect.... Give it a try I think you will agree...:thumbsup:

[salmayo]

wouldn't this cause uneven ripening?

You mean like Mother Nature does when the bottom of the plant is shaded and the plant follows Sunset with the bottom moving faster than the top's clocking!

Yes, it causes a wider Genetic Bandwidth in the plants responses, which is why if you check examples of Rauber Enhancement, you see only Red spectrums combined with Far Red spectrums to reduce the bandwidth effect across the grow space volume.

Take care, Sal.

[salmayo]

If you can post a McCree curve, I can show you a thing or two in terms of relative responce, as opposed to the regular absolute concepts.

Might be next week though.

Take care, Sal.

[Dogznova]

This was all I could find.. Hope you can use one of these for your demo..