Wondering if a technique, product or idea is fact or myth...?

[Rusty Trichome]

Many different myths dispelled, albeit relating to gardening and food crop biology in general. Very interesting reading offering a glimpse into plant biology, marketing and folklore.

Just came across it a few weeks ago, but have read a few that seemed applicable to my growroom. The summaries about compost teas, foliar feeding, epsom salt, (magnesium sulfate) and Superthrive (vitamin suppliments) were truly informative and at the very least...make ya think.

Anyway, if you're into learning, it's just technical enough to need re-reading some of the sentences, (or read the articles prior to taking your evening meds) but has made me re-think some of my understandings of soil chemistry and plant biology in an easy to read format.

Hope y'all get as much out of this as I have. :jointsmile:

Linda Chalker-Scott Horticultural Myths (http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~linda%20chalker-scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/index.html)

Shoot...I meant to post this in the Basic Growing forum. <sigh>

[phatsesh101]

that peat one makes me wanna changs to coco

[Rusty Trichome]

The peat thing didn't impress me nearly as much as the compost tea, phosphate, foliar feeding and epsom salt papers.

But I did notice that there wasn't anything on the moon phases...so I e-mailed the author directly.

In response to my asking the validity of moon phases on indoor and/or outdoor cannabis gardening, (specifically) she explained that...
Oh screw it...here's what I asked, and the response I got...

To whom it may concern, (Ms. Chalker-Scott)

Hello, my name is (Rusty), and I have a question or two about moon phase gardening.

First, I want to thank you for your papers on horticultral myths, and all the insightful information they impart.
I'm a woodworker that has been caretaking for my wife. (being treated with chemo for chronic t-cell lymphoma for 7 years now) Since insurance does not cover all of her meds, I (legally) grow what the insurance doesn't cover....indoors under HID's, in soil.
Anyway, I've been doing a lot of reading in the gardening forums about moon phase gardening. But there is an onoing disagreement about its validty. Sometimes to the point of becoming rather heated.

I am in hopes you can point me in the right direction for answers, as all I can find are marketing ads and other gardening sites having the same arguments.

So...is moon phase gardening a valid technique, and if so, is it a valid tehnique for indoor gardening, as well?

Any insight or links would be greatly appreciated, and thanks again for the mythbusting.

-Rusty
This is the response I got this morning:

Dear (Rusty) -

Moon phases do have a significant effect on certain ecosystems and organisms, most notably marine species who are influenced by tidal shifts. Additionally, there are a number of nocturnal insects, like moths, that are affected by the phase of the moon. Terrestrial plants, however, have no known response to moon phases and "gardening by the moon" is not based on any reputable or repeatable science.

I did a quick review of the literature on this topic; there are less than 20 over the last several decades. Most of the papers are not published in English, though the abstracts are. Though a few articles claim lunar effect on some plant attribute or another, there is no cohesive connection among these papers, and in fact most of the articles strongly refute any such effect.

The only explanation that might exist for any differences in plant responses that coincide with lunar cycles would be if a plant's pollinators or pests had lunar-dependent cycles. That in turn could influence their activity on plants, which would then show effects based on insect activity. But this is not a direct influence of the moon on the plant.

Hope this is helpful -

Linda

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Linda Chalker-Scott
Associate Professor and Extension Urban Horticulturist
WSU Puyallup Research and Extension Center
2606 W. Pioneer
Puyallup, WA 98371

Phone: (253)
URL: Linda Chalker-Scott (http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/)

[phatsesh101]

the compost tea thing said nothing really except its unstable, which i know but gives me the best results so far.

its an ancient hippy mixture from the 60s long b4 FF or any other nute co. handed down from grower to grower and i must go to a damn hippy store to get the ingredients.

i still need to read some


not sure about moon gardening saw thread and seemed kinda out there so i never checked it out, maybe i will now.
but i can say that outdoors i do noticed increased growth at a full moon or new moon or something like that

[oldmac]

Hey Rusty,

Thanks for that link, as I get more time I will read it all.:thumbsup:

I also thank you for asking her a good question about lunar phases and posting her responce. I have wondered about certian aspects of the moon, and relationship to plants and planting. Her answer seems well reasoned.

I know that the moon can effect people, I am in fact a true lunatic. Around full moon time I have trouble sleeping, and at times I almost howl at the moon.

[Rusty Trichome]

When I found her papers I thought it would be in there, and it's absence had me a bit worried. Figured it never hurts to ask. What surprised me was that she only took an hour or so to answer.

Likely she was just sitting there with her feet kicked-up, asking herself..."now what should my next paper address...?" when "you've got mail" chimed-in, interrupting her focus. :jointsmile:

I'm just a plain lunatic. Crazy during all phases. :thumbsup:

[the image reaper]

a similar 'urban myth' regarding lunar phases, is that during full moons, there is much more violence and crime, etc ... however, any police dispatcher, or long-time bartender, will usually attest that the moon phase makes no difference ... people are either out-of-control, or they're not ... I'm crazy as a loon, but not dependent on the moon :D ... my opinion on lunar planting/harvesting is just this: it does no harm, either way ;) ... if you like it, by all means, do it the way you prefer, the plant will NOT care ... if nothing else, it keeps you abreast of your plants' age, and stage of life, so that's a positive thing ... :smokin:

[LolaGal]

Too bad Rusty won't see this as he claims he has put me on ignore a long time ago.

Rusty for every expert you pull out your butt, I can pull 3 out of mine that sez the opposite.

Is this supposed to prove anything? LOL...

Just when ya'll thought I wasn't paying attention...

[Rusty Trichome]

Rusty for every expert you pull out your butt, I can pull 3 out of mine that sez the opposite.

Is this supposed to prove anything?
Had to remove ya from ignore to see what nonsence you were pushing in my thread.

So where is even one reputable scholar that you claim supports your garbage? Still haven't come up with one have you...? I've noticed a pattern of dismissiveness whenever you are asked to show proof or supporting evidence. Which is actually sad. Even in the face of facts, you are defending a dead horse. Your tactics and techniques are both unimpressive, and without biological validity, and no ammount of whining will change the fact that the whole underpinning of your lunar phases gardening technique is dissolving before our eyes.

Does it make you feel edumicated talking out of your ass to those that know no better? If you'd like, I can re-post this in "your" thread, and we can rehash this conversation there, but until you come up with any supporting evidence that lunar phases has any direct effect on terrestrial plant habits, from a biologist, your claims are undereducated and overinflated.

This isn't a let's discuss this and see if we can compromise type of thread, and I, as the OP, am requesting that you take your etherial bullshit elsewhere.

But thanks for stopping-by...:thumbsup:

[FakeBoobsRule]

Rusty for every expert you pull out your butt, I can pull 3 out of mine that sez the opposite.

Is this supposed to prove anything? LOL...

Please Lola let's not stir up things. It seems like you're tyring to push his buttons which doesn't take much. Rusty has been good for the last few months and I like both of you so please don't put me in a tight situation where I have to send someone to their room.

Must of us know you 2 don't agree on gardening by the moon but let's keep it civil for the love of God.

[LolaGal]

Oh what fun is there in being civil to Rusty, FBR?

The man goes around callling me an idiot from day one at this site. I have been harrased by Rusty, aggravated, made fun of, all kinds of mean spirited stuff...

Rusty's been GOOD lately huh? Doesn't make it up to all the people he's been mean to in the past in my opinion.


I get threatened for saying Rusty's experts are full of shit and I can pull more out anyday to say the opposite? That's lame....... very lame...

[FakeBoobsRule]

I get threatened for saying Rusty's experts are full of shit and I can pull more out anyday to say the opposite? That's lame....... very lame...
You weren't threatened and it wasn't that you just said his experts are full of shit. The whole post was 3 near insults meant to troll and piss off Rusty and bait him into saying something he shouldn't.

I'm sorry that the 2 of you don't get along really I am but like I said before, I am sick of people responding to attacks with more attacks or insults. Use the report key.

Rusty has served his last suspension and has been good with 1 exception since he's been back. The mods aren't going to keep him down with a boot on his neck for past mistakes. Everyone gets a few chances at first.

If anyone can't learn from repeated suspensions, then they will become permenant.

If the 2 of you can't get along then just ignore each other.

I have to add this. I am so sick of some of these ongoing feuds, not just between the 2 of you but others.

More importantly, I am guessing a majority of the members here are also sick of seeing stupid internet fights.

Look at this thread, 5 out of the 12 posts are now dealing with this ongoing fight instead of the topic.

If you don't want to stop fighting because it's stupid, then think about doing it for the other members here.

[waterdog]

Yea we are all different and see things in different ways.We are tired of the fighting I come here for info not this crap!

[Stoner38024]

ive always wondered about moon phases..
like transplanting when theres a full moon and so on because of gravity i guess, no clue... nice thread rusty.

[Rusty Trichome]

Hmm...three posts as a newbie, waterdog and you are already tired of the fighting? lol.
My heart goes-out to y'all that are apparently frail and easily offended.

So what's up...? Does anyone want to discuss the content or verascity of the scholar's insight contained within? Anyone want to present opposing viewpoints and and discuss the thread content? Anyone have additional links with valid insight? Or does everyone want to talk personalities rather than principles, and avoid discussing anything to do with the myths and misinformation this is addressing?

<sigh>

Thanks Stoner. (just saw your post) :thumbsup:

[crabbyback]

Hmm...three posts as a newbie, waterdog and you are already tired of the fighting? lol.
My heart goes-out to y'all that are apparently frail and easily offended.

So what's up...? Does anyone want to discuss the content or verascity of the scholar's insight contained within? Anyone want to present opposing viewpoints and and discuss the thread content? Anyone have additional links with valid insight? Or does everyone want to talk personalities rather than principles, and avoid discussing anything to do with the myths and misinformation this is addressing?

<sigh>

Thanks Stoner. (just saw your post) :thumbsup:

I've read the links provided and agree with the info they contained. Possibly this thread could become an ongoing discussion and repository for gardening links and resources that aren't specifically for cannabis cultivation? :twocents:

Here's a link that I give my friends when they ask me about gardening pests and pest control. IPM (http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/factsheets/ipm.htm)

[oldmac]

Hey Rusty,

I don't want to continue anything between you and LolaGal, but in her defense I would note that Linda Chalker-Scott did hedge her responce with the observation that things that are influenced by lunar cycles (pollinators or pests) may have an indirect effect on a plant (at least outdoors) and how it does. But I would not expect anything less from experts. Almost allows leave some "wiggle" room in your answers.

I think some true science in regards to container size, various veg times and such, scince they hold alot of mythology, especially with regards to growing with hydro.

[Rusty Trichome]

I don't at all mind discussing the pro's and con's of the papers, but I am getting sick and tired of members chiming-in during my postings with accusations, inuendo and and a severe lack of proof backing their insults. None of us here has exclusive rights to one technique or another, but some folks sure do turn hostile if you disagree with them and show proof backing your dissent. Most folks would see this as an opportunity to discuss. Some take it as an insult.

Ms Chalker-Scott's statement that "Though a few articles claim lunar effect on some plant attribute or another, there is no cohesive connection among these papers, and in fact most of the articles strongly refute any such effect." doesn't seem very ambiguous to me. But it is a summary of other papers published on the subject and not nearly as informative as having the actual studies in front of us to see what was debunked, what was plausible. But I've seen nothing on the web negative of her papers, and she has nothing to gain by presenting one opinion or another, so I am willing to give a much higher degree of credibility than someone selling a book with 'handy' charts.

crabbyback: How does horticulture not apply to growing cannbis? Cannabis is a plant, and has to follow certain biological processes. Minor differences in climatic and nutritional needs, but as I've heard before..."it's a class-c plant".

[oldmac]

It's a C3 plant like the majority of plants and trees in the world. I knew what you meant by class C, tho. ;)

[crabbyback]

I don't at all mind discussing the pro's and con's of the papers, but I am getting sick and tired of members chiming-in during my postings with accusations, inuendo and and a severe lack of proof backing their insults. None of us here has exclusive rights to one technique or another, but some folks sure do turn hostile if you disagree with them and show proof backing your dissent. Most folks would see this as an opportunity to discuss. Some take it as an insult.

Ms Chalker-Scott's statement that "Though a few articles claim lunar effect on some plant attribute or another, there is no cohesive connection among these papers, and in fact most of the articles strongly refute any such effect." doesn't seem very ambiguous to me. But it is a summary of other papers published on the subject and not nearly as informative as having the actual studies in front of us to see what was debunked, what was plausible. But I've seen nothing on the web negative of her papers, and she has nothing to gain by presenting one opinion or another, so I am willing to give a much higher degree of credibility than someone selling a book with 'handy' charts.

crabbyback: How does horticulture not apply to growing cannbis? Cannabis is a plant, and has to follow certain biological processes. Minor differences in climatic and nutritional needs, but as I've heard before..."it's a class-c plant".

Sorry for being unclear. I meant horticultural sites that don't cater exclusively to MJ growers but I guess that doesn't make sense either.

[LOC NAR on probation]

Rusty, I will go through and read some of the myths. Not to start anything because I don't work by the moon. It's there or it's not my shcedual remains the same either way.

Here is a read I found, not that I agree but I know old farmers that live by it.How does lunar planting work? (http://www.gardeningbythemoon.com/lunarfacts.html)

[Rusty Trichome]

Your link kinda aids in proving my point. The largest type in the sub-header says "BUY NOW". (not that this site has an agenda, but...)
No matter how you package snake oil, it's still snake oil. :jointsmile:

[sarah louise]

Excellent find Rusty, thanks for posting it.

[mainegrown]

i like the site you posted rusty.. very interesting
i dont have any proof but my mother has an amazing garden...not MMJ..but still HUGE and come spring i will post pics of it for ya'll (its under a foot of white shit right now) and she DOES subscribe to lunar planting and it SEEMS to work for her...
maybe it was just a great way to time your planting and harvests in the old days before they had modern calanders and such but it probably does have a basis in fact.. most MYTHS do have a basis.. or they wouldnt be perpetuated so much
just my thoughts bro and i WIL find proof for you
-J

[the image reaper]

regarding lunar phase planting schedules, I have to compare it with 'Nature's Way' ... it would seem, Nature would further guarantee survival and propogation, by causing the adult plants, to only drop their seeds on certain days, when the 'lunar benefit' is at its peak ... ;) ... in a perfect world, maybe, but not in this one ... as I've always said, if planting on a certain day blows your skirt up, go for it :thumbsup: ... but, don't delude yourself into thinking lunar planting will significantly benefit your seedlings, it just doesn't work that way ... after 42 years of growing pot, and doing 'controlled' experiments, I just haven't seen it make ANY difference ... not worth arguing over, for sure ... happy gardening :)

[jakester]

Too bad Rusty won't see this as he claims he has put me on ignore a long time ago.I am new here and I am close to doing the same.


Rusty for every expert you pull out your butt, I can pull 3 out of mine that sez the opposite.Please....post just ONE if you can find it. Not some wacko, someone with a PHD, preferably someone involved in serious research.


Is this supposed to prove anything? LOL...You should look up the word proof....yes, it does.



Just when ya'll thought I wasn't paying attention...Crazy never sleeps.

Look, don't say you can post proof, DO IT!! It's unfair and disingenuous to pretend you hold the trump card without showing it. Either admit you are basing your reports on nothing or post SOMETHING! There's plenty of misinformation on the internet, let's not contribute to that mess.

[Rusty Trichome]

Lola and I had a discussion or two about the moon phase stuff. I showed her my evidence and proof, but when pressed for her proof, she got all huffy and hasn't logged-in since. (I guess it wasn't in the stars)

I wish her the best, but I personally think a gardeners time is better spent learning proper technique with skills and supplies available, not 'perfecting' antiquated wives tales that to date have been virtually disproven. But then, I don't base my life around the stars either. :jointsmile:

[jakester]

I mean, if it makes you feel good then fine, do it. I bet it WILL help....the way you feel. That in turn may be the best way for you to garden for a myriad of reasons.

To say that you have "experts" or studies that don't exist is just plain lying.

[Maxor420]

Well after reading this entire thread, and making sure to try to find some information on my own... have come to this theory:

1) Lunar planting is only effective in any small amount because of the gravitational pull of the moon and sun. The height of which is when both are opposing each other.

2) Lunar planting can facilitate plants (In theory, due to no SCIENTIFIC evidence otherwise) with water uptake. We all know that having more water available in the beginning/seedling stage is necessary, to help new roots develop, and water helps nutrients move around the plant (Like our bloods plasma)

3) Lunar planting, even at it's height cannot greatly effect a plant. Because it simply does not affect enough aspects of a plants growing needs.

NOTE: There is also the aspect of gravitational force against the world, which would, IN THEORY, make the liquid inside a plant, as well as EVERYTHING ON THE ENTIRE EARTH, lighter to a degree. Especially during a "New" moon.


With MY OWN THEORY said: I surmise there is no great benefit to lunar planting, and will never feel the need to test this out.

Rusty, you did one hell of a job keeping a level head, and being mature about this whole thing. You're a great guy in my books!:cool:

Keep on Smokin,
Maxor420

[killabyte]

rusty trichome and lola gal are a match made in heaven.

seriously though ... this is goin up in my tent

[nugssgalore]

I plant my garden in the ole farmer's way...plant root crops on the dark of the moon because energy stimulates and pulls down under...plant leafy cropsin the new moon because of the opposite stimulation...harvest near a full moon when you will get the most yield. That said, I am harvesting the most of my staged harvest towards the full moon on Friday....don't need no stinkin' proof.;)

P.S. I cut my hair using the same theory and it is thick and down to my waist.:D Could be just genetics, don't know, don't care.

Easy does it.

[nugssgalore]

oh ya, i was talking about my vegetable garden, the way I have planted for years. I see no need to treat herbage any different.:smokin:

[Rusty Trichome]

Anything less than actual proof is incidental and subject to wild and unsubstantiated interpretation. Where is the proof your efforts aren't being wasted on an arbitrary albeit humorous bit of folklore and wives tales? I've been down this path many times with beliefs stronger than yours, and have survived unscathed by the folklore.

If you can find one scholarly article proving the method is viable, accepted and widely used in industry, I'll look it over to assure none of the authors are making money furthering the folklore...and we can continue from there.

Anyone can make claims. Few can back them up.

[Slevinkal]

I wont even begin to take sides here...
just a Q

Rusty, do you think the dig a hole when the moon is waxed and you'll have too much dirt to fill it, dig when waned and you won't have enough dirt phenomena might have something to do with this belief? Maybe it was somehow based on or around this?

[Rusty Trichome]

I've never heard that particular phrase, but a lot of the myths and folklore came from the Farmers Almanac. A lot of 'em are easy-to-remember rhymes and diddy's. that added to the charm of the publication, but added nothing to scientific observations and accuracy. (and proved nothing) I does make the gardener think and plan, but beyond that...I'm not at all convinced.

Gardening by Witchcraft - The looney wisdom of the Old Farmers Almanac. (http://www.metrosantacruz.com/metro-santa-cruz/04.16.08/cover-0816.html) (the article starts half way down the page)

Research|Penn State: Is the Farmers' Almanac accurate? (http://www.rps.psu.edu/probing/almanac.html)

They say this one is a good read, and is typical of the moon phase marketing:
The Gardeners Secret Handbook (http://www.freeplants.com/moon-gardening.html)