Colchicine treating

[Deejay2163]

I've read from a few sources that crushing Colchicine tablets or extracting the raw colchicine from the winter crocus bulbs and soaking your seeds in it is the most preferred and used method to feminize seeds....anyone have any input as to this method of feminization?

[Dogznova]

From what I've read.... Feminize seeds require female pollen to pollenate a female flower.. A female mother plant and her (female pollen) is the only way I know of to get feminize seeds.. :thumbsup:

[Deejay2163]

that's a new one on me .I have never heard of female pollen ,because up until now ,it has been a long standing fact ,as i understood it, that female cannabis flowers do not produce pollen , otherwise , why are males needed?

[Dogznova]

Female plants do produce pollen... And as long as she has no hermi genes in her you will get all female pollen from her...You have to force her to do this of course. It takes what I like to call (end of the world juice). Basically you spray some stuff on her 2 weeks before and 2 weeks after she goes into flowering and it makes her think it's the end of the world. LOL
I know your laughing... It's true though.. Your favorite plants have a gene in them and when they think it's the end of the world or going into the ice-age as an example. They go into self reproduction mode.. They basically make sure they live forever even if there is no Male or Female close by...Females produce male pollen sacks with (female pollen) and males produce female flowers and also produce both female and male pollen just like it normally would.... Both plants self pollinate and wait for the ice to melt.

This method is call selfing in the breading world

I've have read of three things you can spray on the girls to make this work.
Two of them are chemicals you have to buy and the third one you make from home.

[Deejay2163]

it seems to me that doing it that way requires a bit more time than the colchicine method provided that the colchicine method works.if it does work then you can operate off female clones. i'm no doubting what you say , but it seems to me like you're intentionally causing a hermaphroditic reaction to an external stimulus.While that might be a viable option , my original question still has not been definitively answered. But thank you

[oldmac]

I'm not sure where you heard that colchcine is the most preferred method of feminizing seeds, I would guess that light poisoning (disrupting the plants dark period) is the most common and that might make it the most preferred. It's also the easiest for most hobbyists.

IMHO plants grown from colchcine treated seeds probably should not be consumed. Those plants are only good for seed prodution not consumption, and is why this method is used by some commercial seed producers. I'm honestly unsure what the pros or cons might be of clonning directly off a plant that's seeds were treated.

And yes, stressing the plant to make it turn hermphodite produces female pollen that can be used on other plants (how I learned) to produce femmed seeds. Plants grown from these seeds will not be prone to turning hermie any more then the original plants the seeds came from. In fact if you only have one plant to produce seeds and you herm it and self pollenate it, those seeds even will not be any worst then what it came from. All mj plants will herm for self presavation of the strain, some just do it easier then others.

[daihashi]

Female plants do produce pollen... And as long as she has no hermi genes in her you will get all female pollen from her...You have to force her to do this of course. It takes what I like to call (end of the world juice). Basically you spray some stuff on her 2 weeks before and 2 weeks after she goes into flowering and it makes her think it's the end of the world. LOL
I know your laughing... It's true though.. Your favorite plants have a gene in them and when they think it's the end of the world or going into the ice-age as an example. They go into self reproduction mode.. They basically make sure they live forever even if there is no Male or Female close by...Females produce male pollen sacks with (female pollen) and males produce female flowers and also produce both female and male pollen just like it normally would.... Both plants self pollinate and wait for the ice to melt.

This method is call selfing in the breading world

I've have read of three things you can spray on the girls to make this work.
Two of them are chemicals you have to buy and the third one you make from home.

WTF are you talking about?

Female plants do not produce pollen. To produce pollen you need pollen sacs.. and if your plant has pollen sacs then it is either A. a Male or B. a hermaphrodite.

A female plant will make pollen if you let it flower until it dies in which case it makes a last ditch effort to survive by going hermie and self pollinating.

You can't change the biology of a plant no matter how you try to spin your story. Female plants DO NOT make pollen.

[daihashi]

I'm not sure where you heard that colchcine is the most preferred method of feminizing seeds, I would guess that light poisoning (disrupting the plants dark period) is the most common and that might make it the most preferred. It's also the easiest for most hobbyists.

IMHO plants grown from colchcine treated seeds probably should not be consumed. Those plants are only good for seed prodution not consumption, and is why this method is used by some commercial seed producers. I'm honestly unsure what the pros or cons might be of clonning directly off a plant that's seeds were treated.

And yes, stressing the plant to make it turn hermphodite produces female pollen that can be used on other plants (how I learned) to produce femmed seeds. Plants grown from these seeds will not be prone to turning hermie any more then the original plants the seeds came from. In fact if you only have one plant to produce seeds and you herm it and self pollenate it, those seeds even will not be any worst then what it came from. All mj plants will herm for self presavation of the strain, some just do it easier then others.

the pollen comes from the male part of the hermaphrodite plant. There is no female pollen. There is hermaphrodite pollen and Male pollen :)

Though yes, hermaphrodite pollen will make seeds likely to come out female; but they are also likely to become hermaphrodite also if introduced the seeds are introduced into similiar conditions during flowering that initiated hermaphroditism on the mother.

But it's important to always know in the back of your head that hermaphrodite pollen is hermaphrodite pollen and not 100% female; meaning your seeds stand risk of having both male and female parts.

[oldmac]

the pollen comes from the male part of the hermaphrodite plant. There is no female pollen. There is hermaphrodite pollen and Male pollen :)

You are absolutely right, I refered to it this way since it does not contain any male genes.

Though yes, hermaphrodite pollen will make seeds likely to come out female; but they are also likely to become hermaphrodite also if introduced the seeds are introduced into similiar conditions during flowering that initiated hermaphroditism on the mother.

Not likely to be female, assured to be. Unless there was some mutation earlier in the process. The fact that the prodigy will become hermie just like it's parent if subjected to the same stress, goes without saying...that's what I'd expect.

[QUOTE]But it's important to always know in the back of your head that hermaphrodite pollen is hermaphrodite pollen and not 100% female; meaning your seeds stand risk of having both male and female parts.

It's also important to remember, it is difficult to make generalizations about mj since there is wide variation in how the various strains react to various things, such as stress. Add to this the fact that almost all the mj you come in contact with today is a hybredized plant, crosses of various strains and is more likely to do strange "mutant" type things as opposed to landrace strains. You are also correct in your previous responce, you can't change the biology of the plant. If we could we really could exploit the plant. Thanks for keeping me honest, it is good to see you around.;)

[oldmac]

PS: sorry I can not figure out how to get all your quotes hi-lighted, I suck at this computer shit, I grow better then I can 'puter.

[Rusty Trichome]

PS: sorry I can not figure out how to get all your quotes hi-lighted
You hit the quote button, and either remove any unnecessary dialog, or split the paragraphs by copying and pasting the quote tags (the quote tag, and close quote tag) to where ya want 'em.


You can copy and paste the front-end of the quote tag to the beginning of the next sentance, and copy-n-paste the close quote tag

Regarding female pollen: Each and every female cannabis plant I've worked with is capable of producing pollen sacks under stress. It's hard-wired in the plant as a survival technique. It's not a genetic weakness per say...but it is a significant genetic ability to self-pollinate in extreme emergency or stress. This trait comes in handy when properly implemented, but is a strain-killer if over-manipulated.
The bummer is, that some backyard breeders screw-up so bad when growing and breeding that they encourage the responsiveness to the stress, (like stressing the femmed seeds, and stressing those resulting seeds, and then stressing the next generation...) making the resultant seeds more prone to low-stress hermaphrodism. Done properly, you will never see a male from those particular seeds. Done wrong, your genetics become trash.

Any chemical/hormonal/steroidal treatment that alters a plants hormones or genes is likely not good to smoke. Even if smoking a mutagen is your thing, likely you should at least tell those that you share your meds with that the buds contain those compounds, and that there is no study that had deemed smoking them, as safe.

Some folks may even be allergic. (just a theory, lol)

[oldmac]

Hey Rusty,
Thanks for tutoring me on breaking up the quotes. On a subsequent post on another thread I figured out how to insert my answers using a different color to make my comments different from the quote. Next time I'll try to do it correctly.

On topic, I agree with your take on femminizing seeds. Especially if the concept is not understood and over used or miss used. I was originally taught not to use the technique to self pollinate a plant only to use the pollen on other plants, having been told that the seeds from a self pollinated plant would certainly be hermie. Had a situation many years later where I had only one plant and was moving and wanted to keep it as seeds. So I did the self polli routine, got my seeds and months later when I grew them out (with my fingers crossed) they where no different then the original, and did not hermie on thier own. And in fact during an experiment to hermie a prodigy it took the same effort to get it to turn as the original plant. Live, learn and experiment.

BTW thanks for the heads up on the comments.

[oldmac]

Any chemical/hormonal/steroidal treatment that alters a plants hormones or genes is likely not good to smoke. Even if smoking a mutagen is your thing, likely you should at least tell those that you share your meds with that the buds contain those compounds, and that there is no study that had deemed smoking them, as safe.

Some folks may even be allergic. (just a theory, lol)

I'm glad you restated the warning about not smoking chemically treated seeds. I think that might be the most important part of this discussion about colchicine and should not be overlooked.

[Deejay2163]

If i'm not mistaken (and I certainly may be) I read that in the original Growers Guide. I guess the better question to ask would be , if I buy feminised seeds from a breeder , what technique do they use and is paying more for feminised seeds worth the added expense?

[Dogznova]

Oldmac and Rusty Trichome you two are the BOMB.... I thought I was going to have to come home from work and do a lot of typing... I could of not explained this any better if I tried.. I love this community and you two are some of the reason.. Great work guys...:thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Deejay2163... Great ? ...... I often wonderd that myself... I would guess they would not say... But that's just my guess..

[Dutch Pimp]

I'm glad you restated the warning about not smoking chemically treated seeds. I think that might be the most important part of this discussion about colchicine and should not be overlooked.
I'll smoke anything, anytime, anywhere...In case, y'all need a test subject..:thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

daihashi....I have been useing the homemade spray method to femm seeds for sometime.. I have not found one hermi yet.


The seeds are just like there mom was. :thumbsup:

[Italiano715]

If i'm not mistaken (and I certainly may be) I read that in the original Growers Guide. I guess the better question to ask would be , if I buy feminised seeds from a breeder , what technique do they use and is paying more for feminised seeds worth the added expense?

Every strain has different techniques you can do to increase yield and what not. Some strains may need nothing at all (grow naturally) and have outstanding yields. Best thing to do when deciding what fem seed(s) you would like, do some research, try find some grow logs, etc. Basically as much info and input from others who have had experience with it, to help ya out. If there is one thing I learned, don't buy anything just because of a name. Go with something you know is stable (not likely to hermie) and is for your experience level. As some strains tend to be a bit more demanding to grow then others.

The price of the seeds usually in the breeders. Some more known breeders tend to sell theirs for more. Just keep asking questions my friend and most, if not all, will be answered. :thumbsup:

[Italiano715]

I'll smoke anything, anytime, anywhere...In case, y'all need a test subject..:thumbsup:

Test subject sounds too good, I'd like to call ya being the guinea pig. As, you never know what is about to happen when product consumed :)

[Dutch Pimp]

Test subject sounds too good, I'd like to call ya being the guinea pig. As, you never know what is about to happen when product consumed :)


I know ...that's where the fun is....:rastabanna:...I can test agent orange or DDT...no problem

[phatsesh101]

soaking seeds in colchicine is not to produce a hermi mother thats giberelic acid (not sure on spelling) and another acid to reverse it.

Colchicine is used to cause polyploidy which in theory is where we get high thc strains from and is a poison to the seed and everything, so its very hard to get them to germ and tens of thousands of seeds are needed.

disclaimer: i have not worked with it, just have done research in my many years of growing.

Daily Trojan - Save Genetically Modified Medical Marijuana (http://www.dailytrojan.com/2.1962/save-genetically-modified-medical-marijuana-1.218572)

i have a better link but they might sell seeds

[Deejay2163]

The strain that I've had the best success with is Pure Power from Nirvana.They offer the same seeds in a feminised version.The cost difference is quite substantial , therefore the basis of my question was ,if I could fem them myself ,I could save quite a bit of money.Having never tried feminised seeds before ,I was wondering if any of you had ever bought femmed seeds before and what your experience with them was. Thanks for all your help, y'all are a great source of info and very nice folks.

[Italiano715]

Fems and Hermies (changed title from 'feminize your own seeds') (http://boards.cannabis.com/advanced-techniques/5213-fems-hermies-changed-title-feminize-your-own-seeds.html)

Not sure if you read ^^^^ yet, but you should take a look at that WHOLE thread when you got time!

[oldmac]

If i'm not mistaken (and I certainly may be) I read that in the original Growers Guide. I guess the better question to ask would be , if I buy feminised seeds from a breeder , what technique do they use and is paying more for feminised seeds worth the added expense?

Commercial breeders use either light poisining or chemical poisining to turn plants hermie then usually collect 'naner pollen to use on selected breeding mothers.Good breeders usually are working with stable strains and offer good genetics even with femmed seeds. But since they are seeds there is some variation between all of them.

I currently have a thread in Basic Growing called "selecting a mom" and I have grown out a 10 seed pack of Sensi Seeds Shiva Skunk that "limited edition feminised". Going thru the process of grading the plants to figure out witch of the 10 plants becomes the mom #1 for a production grow. Stop by and just remember I go off topic often and encouage others to also if they want. Also showing some auto flowers that I 'm doing at the same time for what I call "shits and giggles".

BTW I think they are worth it, normally I'd start 20 or more regular beans and have to sort thru getting rid of males, so with fem seeds I only start 10. My concession to lazy or limited time.

[Rusty Trichome]

...if I buy feminised seeds from a breeder, what technique do they use
Varies by batch and breeder. Not sure I've ever seen the femming methods listed with sales or seed germination info. In my opinion, the ones to look for would be the femmed seeds as a result of light poisoning, though.

...and is paying more for feminised seeds worth the added expense?
If only getting femmed seeds, you will either run out of seeds quickly, or you'll have to make room for a clone mother, or have to learn to stress a lady into providing pollen to make more seeds, or you'll have to purchase new un-femmed seeds to grow a solid male for his pollen, or you'll have to cross it with a strain you already have, potentially degrading the strain, and results will always vary.

I think it'd be better to purchase the cheap, un-femmed seeds, and do the femming myself using the interrupted darkness (light poisoning) metheod. But even if you have to purchase femmed seeds it is tremendously convienent if you have the experience and checkbook. After all, having invested a month or more to raising the seedlings, it sucks having to cull half your plants because they are males.

Having said all that, I think keeping a clone mother is a tad easier for the novice grower once you master cloning... :thumbsup:

[Deejay2163]

Thanks to everyone for the information that you have so generously provided.Due to my circumstance of growing , I can only grow for about 8 months a year and I have no ability to keep a clone mother, therefore I am forced to have to start each new season's crop from seed.Most years ,my male to female ratio follows the normal line ,but occasionally I have a batch of seeds that only produces one or two females,therefore the basis of my original question. Normally I grow from September thru April.

[Dogznova]

Hi all... I hate to go a little off topic here but..... The mom I'm currently playing with has a very hard time going hermie using light positioning.. But using the spray method she hermies every time.. Other strains I have done will hermie using light positioning quite easily and not so easily using the spray. After thinking about this for some time my guess is that the strains come from different parts of the world.

Here let me explain...

The only way I can think of that this type of stress or (catastrophic disaster) could of happend outdoors naturally would be when the earth went into the ice-age. We all know a meteor hit the earth correct..... Well when that happened two things must of occurred. One the earth shifted off it's axis and two the sky turned gray fill with basically minerals from the ground and dust. Some parts of the earth NOW had the sun rise and set at different times of the day because of the meteor impact causing (light positioning) and some parts of the earth had it rain down water that was contaminated with minerals and such... Sorry I'm not a scientist just a med user. LOL You get the point...

Basically I can get some strains to hermie using light positioning and some strains to hermie using distilled water that I add a certain mineral to.

[Rusty Trichome]

A "certain mineral"? Colloidal silver, perhaps...?
If so...Silvermedicine.org - Colloidal Silver (http://www.silvermedicine.org/argyria.html)
I'm guessing that effects from smoking the residue hasn't been tested, but I'll pass. I'm just not a cavalier as I used to be.
I've never had a problem with the light technique though. (other than the first time, when I made few hermies instead of just one) Perhaps a longer interruption, or more lumens, or both...? I just sneak her out for a few nights, about 5-10 minutes, and sneak her back in. 3 - 23 watt CFL's.

Also...if you have the room to do so, no need to cull her so she won't pollinate everything. If you cut her back and re-veg her, (re-veg link is in my sgnature) she'll resume normal vegetative growth, and if no added stresses, no future nanners. Any nanners that were left after trimming shrivel-up and die. It's like hitting the "reset" button. Also provides boatloads of new shoots which are great for clones.

[Dogznova]

Rusty you are correct about the Colloidal silver... Works great for some girls not so good for others. Not sure why this particular girl won't respond to light positioning and we even tried a lot of heat with the light positioning technique... still no go.

Personally I only use the seeds and the pollen from the colloidal silver sprayed plants.. LOL... My uncle smokes the bud though.. He's not turning silver yet... He is kind of wacky though..

I do not recommend any med user to smoke bud sprayed with Colloidal silver....Just use the seeds and all will be good...... trust me...:thumbsup:

[oldmac]

Hey Dog,

Thanks for the earlier compliment, I'm flattered but Rusty is in a league of his own. I have been here only a short time, and have not contributed nearly as much as Rusty has to these boards.

Ain't it a real bitch when you want to get a plant to turn and it won't. Mean while some will herm if you give them a nasty look. The colloidal silver method is used especially with the auto flowers because it is suppose to very quick acting and I thought would work with most strains. I have not tried to use it tho, I usually have success with screwing with the dark period. When I was using my greenhouse, where I could not easily do light poisining, I'd use large doses of aspirin to chemically poisin selected plants. It works pretty reliably.

[Dogznova]

Oldmac this girl is a semi autoflower...That explains why the silver works... Thanks for the great info.. I will pass it along to my uncle...:thumbsup:

[konvikt419]

good thread i love the advanced techniqes section:jointsmile:

[Rusty Trichome]

Many years ago, aspirin was the first technique I used for forcing nanners. :thumbsup:

Use care if you re-use any portion of the aspirin-laced soil. It can screw with the next crop.

Tried to up-rep ya Oldmac, but the server seems to think I do so too often. I appreciate the compliment though. :thumbsup:

[bugsey]

hi all, have done the cholchicine trip &have growen out the next generation. found it increased the thc but tasted like shit. read up on it before trying . i wasted the first crop as advised cheers bugsey

[Mustelid]

It is my understanding that gibberellic acid is used to induce male flowers on a female plant.

Colchicine is a gout medication that purportedly can induce polyploidiy in plants, the advantage of polyloid marijuana being that the double female chromisome will make superbud.

[Rusty Trichome]

It is my understanding that gibberellic acid is used to induce male flowers on a female plant.Depends on the dilution rates prior to application. Use a weaker solution...it's a growth hormone aiding in internode stretch. Use a stronger solution and you stress her to hermaphrodism. Either way, I wouldn't want to smoke the results. Nor would I want to risk any adverse reactions in my family or friends.


Colchicine is a gout medication that purportedly can induce polyploidiy in plants, the advantage of polyloid marijuana being that the double female chromisome will make superbud.
Would like to see some data on that.
Also, IMHO, touting the use of these products on a medical cannabis site is unethical, as nobody knows the results of smoking the residue contained within the plant.
Wanna risk killing someone suffering from AIDS, cancer or hep-c...? Just have 'em smoke some steroids or hormones, or other toxic compounds that you have no clue about, but freely tout as effective.

If you are a medical grower, think hard before subjecting yourself to the unknown drug interractions, and the possible assault these unknown compounds will have on your current treatments the doctor has you on.

Acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin) or light poisoning are the only methods I would ever consider endorsing.

Time and experience will make your buds grow better and safer than any steroidal or hormonal additive.

[Mustelid]

Good point!

I'm not endorsing their use, certainly not consuming, or letting anyone consume the treated plants.

As far as using the seeds from gibberellic acid treated plant, I understand that it is safe, at least that is where femenized seeds come from.

As far as colchicine, it has mostly been abandoned as gout medication due to horrible stomach cramps and other problems. A treated plant is probably very unsafe to consume.

A clone from a mother treated with colchicine? I'm not sure, and don't own a GCMS machine to see what the concentrations of colchicine are either.

[LOC NAR on probation]

WTF are you talking about?

Female plants do not produce pollen. To produce pollen you need pollen sacs.. and if your plant has pollen sacs then it is either A. a Male or B. a hermaphrodite.

A female plant will make pollen if you let it flower until it dies in which case it makes a last ditch effort to survive by going hermie and self pollinating.

You can't change the biology of a plant no matter how you try to spin your story. Female plants DO NOT make pollen.

Sorry there is another. It is a full female plant with female nanners or banana's. It is a female genetic flower that has pollen. The only way to get female seeds.

[LOC NAR on probation]

I've read from a few sources that crushing Colchicine tablets or extracting the raw colchicine from the winter crocus bulbs and soaking your seeds in it is the most preferred and used method to feminize seeds....anyone have any input as to this method of feminization?

Crocus bulbs were crushed and plants treated with the juice in order to make a plant with way more flowering sites. Once treated the plant could not be consumed. It was only good for taking clones. With new breeds and genetic it fell by the roadside for being too dangerous. It's called polyploid. Do a web search you'll find it.

[Deejay2163]

I just remembered something about colchicine treating from a passage in the Growers Guide and was curious about it , so I decided to put the question to the experts and fellow growers in this forum so I could make an informed decision.I am ready to order this years seeds (as I do not have the facilities to keep a clone mother from season to season) ,and was wondering if the difference in cost was justifiable. Hopefully this won't be much of an issue in the future if my circumstances change where I can keep a clone mother ,but as for now , this is the situation that I am forced to deal with.I can only grow during the winter months due to temperature issues,so I hope you understand my plight. Thanks for all the great responses to my original question , y'all have been a huge help as always.

[Rusty Trichome]

I understand what you think your plight is, but check the link in my signature regarding dealing with heat issues. Cannabis is much more resiliant than some would lead you to believe. Worse case scenario if you do try in the summer...failure. Best case...success. Best case scenario if you don't try...ummm...wellll...there is really no upside. :jointsmile:

If you have the same reservations, yes. Going with quality femmed seeds is a much easier way to go when starting from scratch.