Second Martian Method attempt

[Mother]

This thread is my second attempt at using the "Martian Method" or "Artificial Darkness" lighting technique developed by SalMayo and associates. For full disclosures and disclaimers, see my first attempt: http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/165934-first-attempt-24-hour-martian-method.html#post1945600 but to summarize: I didn't invent this lighting technique nor do I claim to fully understand it. I'm just testing it to see for myself what it can do.

This time I'm going with one Heavy Duty Fruity plant in soilless mix using Pure Blend Pro for vegging (done by this point) and FoxFarm chemical nutes for flowering.

I was going to start this thread a week or two ago, but I couldn't get the light timing right so she just kept vegging, and grow logs of vegging plants are not terribly exciting.

I've set the lighting to 6/7/10/1 from a previous 6/10/8 schedule. If she doesn't start flowering in the next 7-10 days, I'm going to take an hour from daylight and put it to total darkness, but I don't think that will be necessary.

[Mother]

She was the mother and has been replaced by a young upstart, but it's a shame to waste such a nice, mature plant so I'm flowering her!

Also to note, the lighting is:
42W CFL, 6500K
26W CFL 6500K (the other 42W broke)
2x 25W red incandescent lights
8x 13W 660nm red LED bulbs consisting of 168 5mm LEDs each (don't ever buy these, they suck)

[Mother]

Sorry I'm lame at the computer but I don't know how to send a message to Weezard specifically, so I'm posting it here assuming he'll read my thread (yeah, I know, ass-u-me...)

Weez! Just saw your rep message! I'd send you one back but "I have to spread some rep around before giving it to Weezard again" damn. Things are going great with me, since I'm done with school now and trying to find a job. HA! At some point I'm going to go all LED (or at least almost all LED) and I'll be reading and re-reading your LED threads to get as much info as I can before I embark. I hope all's well with you, peace and love.

[DreadedHermie]

Weezard should see this, but just-in-case, we got a chess game (spelled s-l-a-u-g-h-t-e-r) goin' on and I'll post to him there.

Weezard helped me build a high powered light. I highly recommend it! :thumbsup:

I followed your first log as much as I could. (Was busy blowing up leds...) And I didn't know how to subscribe back then. So, subscribed! :thumbsup:

Good luck. I think you all are onto something! :abduct:

[Dogznova]

Sweet I'm in..:thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Hi mother.... What is your estimate on the time factor for your PAD light combo?

[headshake]

i'm in too! glad i caught this one from the beginning. so now i'll only have to hurt my brain daily as opposed to trying to play catch up!


-shake

[Weezard]

Sorry I'm lame at the computer but I don't know how to send a message to Weezard specifically, so I'm posting it here assuming he'll read my thread (yeah, I know, ass-u-me...)

Weez! Just saw your rep message! I'd send you one back but "I have to spread some rep around before giving it to Weezard again" damn. Things are going great with me, since I'm done with school now and trying to find a job. HA! At some point I'm going to go all LED (or at least almost all LED) and I'll be reading and re-reading your LED threads to get as much info as I can before I embark. I hope all's well with you, peace and love.


No worries, Mom ,I'll be lurking.

Next time just click on my avatar and check "all posts by"
Find the last post and hit reply.
When ya got nothin' betta' to do, start clicking around just to see what is do-able.
There's all kine fun to be had in cyber-land.:D

Aloha,
Weezard

[Mother]

Hey Dog: my time factor... I've been kicking around in my head what my time factor is, but more importantly how to calculate it... The following is really my mind rambling around and me putting it into writing here, so please don't consider it any sort of guide or truth. :-) As always, I present ideas to generate more ideas... New ideas and corrections and questions and critiques are invited and encouraged.

I have to take into account at least these things:
1. Quality of light, meaning what are the wavelengths being used
2. Relative quantity of light, meaning how much of each wavelength is present in relation to the others
3. Absolute quantity of light, meaning total wattage of light rays bouncing around

So I have some 660nm LED light and red incandescent light, but how much of each in relation to each other, and how much overall?

Some seat-of-my-pants guesses...

8 LED bulbs at 13W draw each = 104W draw... since they're 5mm LEDs, they're not particularly efficient. I don't know how to calculate efficiency, but I believe it's a function of the intensity and wavelength of light coming out of the LED. For example, if an LED takes 10W input and produces 100 lumens of 660nm light output, I'd have to figure out how much energy is in 100 lumens of 660nm light to be able to figure out how much of the electrical energy is converted to light energy. For all light sources, including LEDS, this conversion is not particularly efficient as compared to other types of energy conversion. For example, converting electrical energy to mechanical energy (via electric motor) can be as high as 98% efficient, meaning 100W of electricity will produce 98W of motion. Efficiency rates for converting electricity to light are much, much lower. Even in LEDs, it's not that great. For example, a Luxeon K2 Royal Blue LED (LXK2-PR14-Q00) produces 475mW of light on 3.85W of electrical input, making it about 12.3% efficient (475mW / 3,850mW). Even though that color blue is particularly inefficient in LED form, it's still in the range of overall LED efficiency.

Since 5mm LEDs are significantly less efficient than Luxeons, I'll take a guess that my 5mm Red LEDs are around 5-10% efficient, meaning every 13W bulb I have puts out around .7 to 1.3 Watts of light.

Incandescent bulbs are far less efficient. Common references on the internet say 95% of the electricity of incandescent bulbs is converted to heat, making them 5% efficient. On top of that, though, of the light they are producing, a large part of that is infrared (even beyond the plant-usable 750nm edge), so in terms of usable light, they're maybe 3 or 4% efficient. Add a red coating on the bulb to block blue/green/yellow and you get maybe 1-2% efficiency.

So taking the high estimates, I'd guess 10.4W of 660nm LED light and 1W of red incandescent light (ranging from 620-ish to 750-ish nm) gives me a ratio of about 10:1.

Taking that ratio, I can then figure out the time factor for each type of light, then weight them accordingly. My guesses for those are 5.5 for 660nm light and 2 for red incandescents (from post 168 of my last grow log). Weighting those ratios, I get an overall time factor of about 5.2.

My current schedule is 6/7/10/1 so I have 8 hours of AD and 10 hours of SID. If my 8 hours of AD really are at a time factor around 5.2, that gives me a SID equivalent of just over 1.5 hours. Add that to the 10 hours of SID and my guess is that my plants perceive just over 11.5 hours of SID.

I think I've already gotten way too far ahead of myself in my assumptions and calculations, but I can say that a 6/9/8/1 schedule keeps the plant solidly in vegging, so the time factor is definitely more than 2.5. I have yet to see if the new schedule produces flowering, so I can't say if there's enough SID equivalent time yet or not. I can count and calculate and conjecture all I want, but the plants will tell me what the truth is. As I experiment, I learn, and as I learn, I can eliminate what is not true to figure out what is left, which leads me nearer to the truth.

One more thing, my Vanilla Moon mother decided that it's done with vegging and it's going to flower whether I like it or not, so I'm going to put that plant in here too. It's been a mother for probably 4 or 5 months, so perhaps there are some distant relatives that are autoflowerers or maybe I just kept it around too long. The flowering stage it's in looks like a regular plant that's been flowering for maybe 10-14 days, so it should be right on schedule with the shorter-flowering HDF plant.

[Dogznova]

Taking that ratio, I can then figure out the time factor for each type of light, then weight them accordingly. My guesses for those are 5.5 for 660nm light and 2 for red incandescents (from post 168 of my last grow log). Weighting those ratios, I get an overall time factor of about 5.2.

Ok this is what I wanted too see you post.. :)

Your schedule of 6/7/10/1 is really 6 hours of blue (pal) light and 8 hours of red (PAD) light and 10 hours of SID (standard indoor darkness). You don't need to split up the red PAD light (just so you know). Your estimate time factor of 2.0 for red INC is correct and you also correctly have 660 estimated at 5.5 awesome!! Your PAD light schedule can have no MORE then a 4.0 time factor just to make 12 hours of SID and that's not including the lag time going from PAD to SID. So if you think your 5.2 time factor is correct then you will not hit 12 hours of SID with that schedule. You will be in the 11.53 range of SID not counting lag time.

Let's re-cap.... You are using 8 hours of PAD and your also using 10 hours of SID. So using 8 hours of PAD you need to get approximately 2.5 hours of SID equivalent counting lag time. So doing the math you cannot go over 3.2 on your PAD time factor to achieve 12.5 hours of SID.

Let's re re-cap...

8 hours of PAD divided by 3.2 (time factor) is 2.5 hours of SID added to your 10 hours of SID = 12.5 SID total.

Hope this makes sense.

What ever light schedule you chose to use it's all about PAD time factors to get your SID equivalent time correct. :thumbsup:

[Mother]

Dog: Yeah, those are the numbers that I got too. You're probably right about it being shy of a full 12 hours SID. I'm going to keep it where it's at right now to see how the plants respond. Since it's right at the edge (or seems to be, from the estimates) it should be a good test to see if the plant response falls more on one side (vegging) or the other (flowering) which should tell us how close the estimates are. :thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Mother your time factor is too high IMO. You want to run a PAD time factor that you can run alot of and get a good SID equivalent.

With an estimated PAD time factor of 5.2 you need to run 12 hours of your PAD lights just to get 2.5 hours of SID, plus you also need 10 hours of SID to make a total of 12.5 SID. This only leaves you with 2 hours of blue light (PAL) on time.

Just tryng to help :thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Sorry this should of said.

With an estimated PAD time factor of 5.2 you need to run 12 hours of your PAD lights just to get 2.3 hours of SID, plus you also need 10 hours of SID to make a total of 12.3 SID. This still only leaves you with 2 hours of blue light (PAL) on time.

[Mother]

You're probably right, we'll see if the plants agree. :thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Pull some of the 660 and the spectrum will fit the schedule. :thumbsup:

[Mother]

I was actually thinking about doing the opposite: doubling the red incandescents from 2 to 4, but I'm wondering if that would get things a little too warm... I'll see what the plants tell me they need, and I'll figure out the plan from there. :-)

[Mother]

Hey Dog I changed my mind about waiting. I thought about it and realized that I don't have time to wait (I have a deadline that this crop needs to be done by) so I changed the lighting schedule to a simple 4/9/11 which should give me about 1.73 hours of SID-equivalent PAD time if the factor of 5.2 is correct. That would be a total of 12.73 SID-equivalent hours, which should be solidly flowering. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Hi mother that looks good.

[Dogznova]

Mother if we were playing the hot and clod game I would now be saying your hot LOL....Let's play a little game. If you were to remove your SID in that schedule and replace it with PAD. What time factor would you need to be running? :thumbsup:

[salmayo]

Just got an email from Dog and found this new Martian Method thread.

I'm a little behind due to a rist sprain, but should be back up to speed and posting soon.

Till then.

Take Care, Sal.

[Mother]

Ouch, a sprained wrist sounds rough. Hopefully it was from something cool like stopping an armed robbery or trying to lift a plant with too big a yield... :thumbsup:

Dog: at four hours of PAL, I'm left with 20 hours of time that I need to fit 12.5 hours of SID equivalent time into. If I have to use all PAD and no actual SID, I'd need a time factor of 20/12.5 = 1.6.

For readers who may be confused at our acronyms:
PAL: Photosynthetic Artificial Light
This is what most people would call an indoor plant's "daylight". Photosynthetic because the plant is creating energy from light, Artificial because it's coming from light bulbs and not from nature, and Light because the color from the blue end of the spectrum makes that plant think it's daytime.
PAD: Photosynthetic Artificial Darkness
P and A same as above, Darkness because certain colors from the red end of the spectrum make the plant think it's nighttime.
SID: Standard Indoor Darkness
AKA total darkness. Since this is the absence of all light, it's an easy standard to base other calculations off of. As indoor growers we know that we need about 12 hours of SID to make a plant flower, so we can calculate what PAD does to a plant based on known relationships of the effects different types of PAD light as compared to SID.

So when we post a timing schedule that looks like 4/9/11
The 4 is blue because it's PAL, the 9 is red because it's PAD, and the 11 is black because it's SID.

[Dogznova]

Dog: at four hours of PAL, I'm left with 20 hours of time that I need to fit 12.5 hours of SID equivalent time into. If I have to use all PAD and no actual SID, I'd need a time factor of 20/12.5 = 1.6.

Oops my bad.. No SID in the mix = pretty much no Lag time... So you basically need 12 hours of equivalent SID. A PAD time factor of no higher then 1.66..

Once you think about it... There are many different Combinations to chose from...

The only problem I see right now. You are using an estimated time factor of 2 and an estimated time factor of 5.5 to get an estimated time factor of 5.2..... estimated x estimated = estimated... The good news is I think you overshot your estimated time factor and your plants will act more like a 11/13 type of flower. I think that gives you more (if you want) PAD on time...

Let's say your PAD time factor is actually around 4.2. Then you could run 10 hours of PAD 4/10/10
and you would have 12.3 SID

Now the question is can we get Sal to look at your PAD lighting you got posted and give his estimate on an estimated time factor.

[Dogznova]

Mother do you run your 660 during your PAL time?

[Mother]

Hey Dog, I got my estimated time factor at 5.2 because there's a lot more 660 light than there is red incandescent, so I believe it weights the factor more.

For example, if I had one red 660 LED and 10 red incandescent bulbs, it should be a different overall time factor than if I had one red incandescent bulb and 10 660 LEDs. That's because there's a lot more of a given type of light, so it pushes the overall time factor in that direction. At least this is the assumption that I'm working with, and given what else I know about how light works, I think it's a reasonable one. Just multiplying the factors together (2x5.5) ignores how much of each type of light is present.

I run all of the lights during the PAL time: CFLs, LEDs and red incandescents. The only thing that happens on the switch from PAL to PAD is the CFLs turn off. Then on the change from PAD to SID, everything else turns off. Then on the change from SID to PAL, everything turns on, and so the cycle goes.

[headshake]

can i ask where these time factors come from? how does one get these numbers?

thanks for the PAL/PAD/SID definitions by the way. this is hard enough to follow as it is!

sorry if i sound like an idiot newb! just trying to soak everything in that i can.


-shake

[Dogznova]

Just multiplying the factors together (2x5.5) ignores how much of each type of light is present.

Not sure were this came from..


My 4.2 PAD time factor estimate is just a guess.. :thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

can i ask where these time factors come from? how does one get these numbers?

Snake read post #76 in mother first thread again.. This should give you a a little more info.
All spectrums have a time factor..

Right now all the time factors we have are....

SID (standard indoor darkness) 1.0
SOD (standard outdoor darkness) .8
Red Incandescent Aprox 2.0
Red 660 Aprox 5.5

My uncle and I have found Red Cfl's are faster then 660. Just not sure exactly the time factor. My guess is Red CFL's are around 4.5

Hope this helps.. :thumbsup:

[headshake]

thanks dog! i'll definitely read that. these advanced topics make my head hurt sometimes.

i'm just tyring to catch some hind tit here!

thanks again.


-shake

[Mother]

Dog: Couldn't have said it better myself.
:thumbsup: :D

[Dogznova]

We could clarify a little more. Sorry I'm not trying to confuse any one. According to Sal's post #76... Time Factors are SID and slower (1.0 1.1 1.2 and up)....Time Rate is what's referred to as faster then SID (.9 .8 .7 and lower)...

I Just wanted to get the correct terminology out there.. When the info is released in October everyone should have a good idea about Time Factor verses Time Rates. :thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

All spectrums have a time factor..

Sorry I need to fix this. Some spectrums have Time Rates.

SOD (standard outdoor darkness) has a Time Rate of .8 Not a Time Factor

My bad I was :confused:

[Mother]

This is what they look like right now.

First one is both plants, HDF plant on the left, VM on the right
Second one is HDF plant up close
Third one is VM plant up close

[Dogznova]

Mother.... It's looking like those girls have a good start... :thumbsup:

[salmayo]

Now the question is can we get Sal to look at your PAD lighting you got posted and give his estimate on an estimated time factor.

The estimates look good, but these are limited to Surface Time Factors and Affect Time Factors tend to be lower, especially for higher sources for Far Red Radiation such as the Red Inc.'s. (Different canopy location/different spectrum/differenent result).

A helpful reminder is that the Time Factor were researched approaching from the veg not end of flower side of the timing schedules, so the Time Factors used tend to be at a starting point on the veg side. This was done decause growth is present if too much veg is present, while on the other side the plant goes dormant and no growth can be observed.

Hope this helps.

Take Care, Sal.

[Mother]

Hi Sal, you gave me some interesting food for thought... I'll have to digest it a bit. ;)

Here's how they're looking now. I did some lower branch pruning since they weren't getting enough light and were never going to be useful to the plant (or me).

First one is the whole setup, second one is HDF, third one is VM.

[Mother]

I had some space open up elsewhere so I moved the Vanilla Moon plant out, so it's back to the original plan of just the HDF plant, which is happily getting more light now that it has the whole space to itself. :thumbsup:

[salmayo]

Time Rates refer to how fast time moves as a multiple of standard time rate.

Time Factors refer to how slow time moves verses a standard time rate.

Since the vast majority of the timing differences are slower than the standard time rate of SID (TF = 1.0) I use Time Factors not rates to describe the differences.

Rauber does use Time Rates as well as Time Factors to describe the different relationships. Since most Time Rates for the Spectrums used are less than 1.0, using Time Rates, rather than Time Factors, would result in mostly decimal or percentage type numbers that I believe would be too much overload for most readers. (I think we should limit the conversation to Factors to avoid confusion. Yes, I'm actually trying to avoid confusion!)

Bandwidth is the spread out of individual cell's genetic clock's positions (readings) resulting from the changes in the spectrum as it travels through the leaves (canopy). Some bandwidth is natural, but it can be increased and decreased as desired to achieve a desired effect.

At the moment Mother and Dog are using methods with a fair amount of bandwidth, which allows for easier timer dial in, since it's easier to sense when nearing a desired target schedule.

Reducing Bandwidth increases the level of specific responce, but allows for less error up and down on the numbers and changes in timing can be more pronounced, good or bad. Being more accurate you can miss entirely, which is good if you want miss one while hitting the other.

SOD (Standard Outdoor Darkness) spectrumS (plural) have Time FactorS (plural) from about 0.8 to 1.0 depending on how you define the beginning and ending of Darkness on an outdoor schedule. Which is why SID (Standard Indoor Darkness) with it's single Time Factor is used as a standard.

To re-answer HeadShakes question on where these come from - originally I thought that I had discovered the Time Factor of 660nm LEDs by trial and error measurements that took 3 months to narrow down (got three months to detect and measure a number, using 3 day timers), but I defer to Rauber's original work from 1992 where he defined similar data for various spectrums, in addition to defining other relevent dynamics in C-3 vascular plants. In short, for SDP (Short Day Plants) the Time Factors (and/or Time Rates) come from lengthly subject comparisons of 12/12 control plant photoperiodic responces compared to test plant responces to various spectrum and time combinations.

And if you head doesn't hurt enough, to calculate the affects (root production) of Blue "Daylight" hours (real time), we will discuss PAL (Photosynthetic Artificial Light) Time Factors and of course total daily gene time (gene ticks - ticks). (tick tick tick tick...)

Eventually the entire schedule is ballanced/combined and totalled as a whole to consider it's whole affect/effect.

Take care, Sal.

[headshake]

wow, i think my head just exploded!

thanks Sal!

and that's exaclty why i love plants.


-shake

[Italiano715]

wow, i think my head just exploded!

thanks Sal!

and that's exaclty why i love plants.


-shake

Yeah, that hurt my head as well... :stoned: I understood like half of that, so I guess what is next is to read on and do some studying.....

[Mother]

Hello everyone

Sorry about letting this thread get stale. :-(

Here are some new pictures. Good news is I'm learning about time factors, bad news is that whatever time factor I'm using, it's not working for flowering. :-)

The first picture is the whole plant, the second two are close-ups of two different stems. You can see they started budding a little at some point, but they're pretty much vegging now. There's very little, if any, height increase at this point. It seems as if the plant is getting not enough daylight to grow (veg-wise) but not enough night time to flower.

I don't have the time or space to flower this plant out now, since it's about at the maximum height for the space it's in and if I were to flower it, it would get much taller. It's such a pretty plant, I hate to throw it out, but I'm not sure what to do with it at this point. Any ideas / suggestions?

[Weezard]

Be a shame to waste her.
Take her for a ride in the country.
Find her a nice clearing in the forest.
Introduce her to real sunlight.
And set her free!

If she's truly yours, she'll wait for your return.:jointsmile:

Aloha Mom.:D

Weeze

[salmayo]

Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner Mother, tried several times yesterday but was apparently running into server problems.

I'm pretty sure what we are seeing is UV triggering at the start of your Red LED PAD schedule, which works the same way as Blue triggerring would if i occured at that time.

The plants are just as UV sensitive as they are Blue light sensitive and may trigger at radiance levels as low as 1/5th Watt per Square Foot of monochromatic radiation if it appears between the 280 to 520nm band.

Detecting UV contamination is a little more tricky than detecting visible Blue light contamination. What I do is expose phosphors with some Blue emission directly to the LED (and other) radiation and observe the phosphor looking through a Blue filter. If UV is present the phosphor will emit some Blue light that is visible through the Blue Filter, which blocks out the Red.

I assumed you would not be getting this problem since it did not appear before as a symptom.

*****
I'm also assuming that your 4/9/11 schedule follows the Dark sequence of SID then Red PAD, and not Red PAD then SID. If you are using PAD then SID that would be the problem most likely and if so you should switch to SID then PAD.
*****

UV from Red and other LEDs -
With the demand for higher output LEDs and especially with the popularity of the Dogma that UV increases potency, LEDs producing seconday UV emissions are being manufactured and marketted for plant growth and they are appearing on the market.

Part of the situation is that the best emitting LED us "Clearlake" cases which do not filter out UV. The Red cases, used to color correct the outputs of cheaper LEDs, usually contain filter pigments that do block these UV emissions.

If this is the problem it is easily corrected by using some form of UV blocking material that doesn't block Red (or Far Red).

I use transparent Red or Yellow plastic filters (Reds are a better bet), but carbonate materails are probably the most available to the average person. Carbonate greenhouse materials are available with clearly stated UV blocking characteristics. Nylon doesn't block UV and it's fairly easy to distinguish Nylon from carbonate materials, since clear Nylon is brittle and breaks/shatters easily when you bend it, while Carbonate tends to crease/pull/distend rather than break.

Borosilicate glass blocks some UV, but not as good as Carbonate.

Camera shops can order UV filters, but they tend to be more pricy.

(I'll try to get one more related post in before risk more server issues).

Sal.

[salmayo]

Mother, the symptoms your plants are displaying indicate that the your 11 hours of SID time are then running into a Blue/UV trigger and that the remaining 9 hours of Red PAD are triggering as PAL instead.

The single bladed leaves, alternate phyllotaxy, and elongation type growth habit are most often observed as preflower by grower turning their timers down to 12/12 by increasing the hours of Darkness used by 1/2 to 1 hour per week, and observed as revegging by growers turning their timers "back up" to reverse the plant from flowering to vegging.

Although slowed grow is one of the indicaters of early/pre - flowering, it is also a symtom of "Rauber's Disease" (AKA Hyperchlorophyllic Anemia, anemia -from Ancient Greek ἀναιμία anaimia, meaning "lack of blood"). This is the reason Red (and some other) LEDs have such a bad reputation for plant growth. Spectrums with Time Factors above 2.0 show this poor growth. This can be corrected with the popular solution of adding Far Red, but as you concluded it takes higher wattages of Incandescent and/or Wide Spectrum fluorescents to counter the levels output of LEDs, especially the 660nm Red LEDs (the one everyone seems to be trying to sell us all).

I assumed at first that you were using a spectrum set-up with a time factor arround 5 in order to reduce preflower/earlyflower stem elongation, but I also have stated that I increase the use of Far Red (in your type of application) as stem elongation decreases as flowering continues (assuming the timing schedule is correct), which means I change the spectrums to lower the Time Factor as the plants elongation characteristic decreases (in order to increase the growth rate). Following the plants behavior I take the Time Factor down to about 1.6 as flowering continues and in the final stages of flowering just before harvest I take the Time Factor down as far as 1.3 .

Gotta run.

Take Care Sal.

[Dogznova]

Following the plants behavior I take the Time Factor down to about 1.6 as flowering continues and in the final stages of flowering just before harvest I take the Time Factor down as far as 1.3.

The question is... How does one get there time factor to 1.6 then to 1.3?

[Mother]

Hey Sal! Yes, my schedule is using Red PAD after "daylight" and before SID. I would switch it around, but I just don't have room or time (I'm moving) to grow the plant out from where it is. I really like Weez's idea :thumbsup: but that's not really a workable idea where I live. :( It would be a beautiful plant to flower out though :D :D :D

As always Sal, thanks for your help and education and I'm glad I could learn some more before Halloween. ;)

[salmayo]

Using (the slower) Red PAD after "daylight" and before (the faster) SID, slows down the process during which the trigger that begins the plants measurement of the Night duration.

I mentioned your situation to Rauber and he commented that if the plants were still in veg when put on your current schedule that the grow rate slow down could cause the plants to appear to freeze in the middle of the changeover between vegging and flowering, which also looks like the changeover between flowering and veg as I mentioned before.

Please note that the slowdown in growth appears (for lack of a simpler descriptive term) to be exponential rather than linear. If it were exponential I'd personally say it appears to the third power rather than just squared.

Oddly enough this accursed growth slow down is just what people are always wishing for when they run into early flower stem elongation.

The amount of Red Incandescent it takes, to get the Time Factors down more and more as flowering continues, is large (I've gone up to 5 times the wattage of the LEDs I used), but it is offset somewhat by the high efficiency of LEDs and it does offer the ability to change these ratios at will, provided you can set the timing schedule to keep your equivalent SID time basically the same.

The good news is that Rauber's method not only improves on the overall efficiency, but also allows for the ability to turn the growth (elongation) rates up and down in the same manner (not to mention the as yet unmentionable other benefits... ...Come on Halloween!).

We really appreaciate all the trials you've endured Mother. Thanks for being so patient.

One benefit of this apparent growth freeze, is that the plants clock is still executing and sending out the normal accumulating population of mRNA messages building up in the plants tissues, and after the plant's regular (3 to 14 day) period of going into bloom, by turning the growth rate back up, you get the plant to go into flower with a minimum increase in (vertical) size.

Good luck with the move.

Take Care, Sal.

[salmayo]

What kind of timers are you using?

What are their accuracy (30 min, 15 min, 1 min) and what are their minimum durations/intervals (45 min, 30 min, 15 min, 1 min )?

Can any of them perform 4 or more complete on/off cycles per day?

It'll help at this end.

Take Care, Sal.

[Mother]

Hi Sal, I'm using a pretty standard 15-minute increment timer, I've attached a picture for you. I don't know what the accuracy is, but I'd guess 3 minutes or so, if I set it carefully.

I had to cut my plant. I'm moving and it simply wasn't transportable. I hope my short grow was informative to others, I learned from it. :thumbsup:

I'm excited about the coming few months! :D

[Mother]

Hit submit too soon there... :jointsmile:

What kind of schedule would you suggest? I can muster up a few of these timers if needed... I'm very interested in a four-complete cycle 24-hour period... ;)

[MerryPrankstr]

For what it's worth I picked up a 15A Digital timer at my local Ace Hardware store, so I think it's safe to say that they are generally available.

These timers are the direct replacement for the one Mother shows. I think I paid maybe $15-20 USD each. They are accurate to 1 minute and can handle something like 225 on/off cycles per week.

:twocents:
M.P.

[salmayo]

Hit submit too soon there... :jointsmile:

What kind of schedule would you suggest? I can muster up a few of these timers if needed... I'm very interested in a four-complete cycle 24-hour period... ;)

I'm not sure what you mean by "a four-complete cycle 24-hour period".

Do you mean 4 separate timer schedules for your 4 separate light sources (spectrums)?

[Dogznova]

Sal... I think she was responding to what you wrote in your other post... "Can any of them perform 4 or more complete on/off cycles per day?" :thumbsup:

[Mother]

Yup, that's what I was talking about. You read my mind, Dog. :-)

Sal: I guess I should back up on my assumptions ;), and ask, how would being about to complete 4 on/off cycles in a 24-hour period help at the end?

[salmayo]

Mother, my first responce to your comment was to think of stepping the spectrums at least at Nightfall, in order to hasten or delay the Nightfall process. After looking at last quarters pile of data, I'm still realling a bit and feeling sort of overwhelmed by it all. My rist has been laming my brain a bit lately to.

As per our question about using four cycles, it primarily has to do with changing the gene time used and/or the energy used for a duration or even a interval process.

For instance leaving the Blue signal on while while trimming one of the other spectrums here or there, reduces the energy input while maintain the Blue schedule unchanged. This would be more for energy concervation than reducing stem elongation in one such application.

Two of the flowerings I just went back and looked over had the same basic schedule that you just used, but they used less than half the energy to achieve the stem elongation slow down during pre- or early flower. In these two examples the number of cycles was not changed but the synchronizing between them was alterred to tune the plant percieved Darkness duration. The schedules were changed (minimally) 4 times, one for vegging, one for early flower, one for bloomiong and one for finishing/ripenning.

As far as suggestions, I can take you too far forward at the moment (I asked), but I can take you a bit laterally.

Although it results in a bit of subcanopy stem elongation, I would suggest that you consider using more Incandescent. Even if you used nothing but a regular clear Incandescent for your Blue signal, the increased tip elongation would provide you with enough new tip growth to observe the changes in morphology (leaf/flower formation) to know what the results of your Darkness schedule are, new growth wise.

Also during this preflower phase, you could reduce the amount of LED wattage used and still similar results, and if you are using Red Inc.'s during the Darknesss interval, reducing the Red LED wattage could give better results, but the timer would have to be reset to adjust to the gene clock speed increase.

I know what a shock the growth slow down can be, but if you can hold on till Halloween, I'm sure you will see what fruit this beastly thing ultimately bore.

Dog, I just reread you question about Reducing the Time Factors, sorry I didn't answer that one as I had thought.

To reduce the Time Factors lower than that of the Red Incandescents you're using, you can exchange one for a Incandescent Blacklight or even dim the Red Inc.'s. There are other options, but I'm limited in that direction at the moment. (Don't worry Dog, even you will have some surprises coming).

As always consider what changes in the timer might have to be made if you change the spectrum.

Personally-
Less than three months to go and I can't wait for some time to brain chill when it's over.

Some interesting news, I've been sellecting stock in my Low Haze breeding project, but now Rauber is calling it LED Haze since the seeds where bred using Rauber's methods and there are no current plans for using any other method for breeding the next generation, making this a LED bred strain. I should be making the next Inbred generation within a month. I'm hoping this will turn out to be a nice strain for LED, HPS and outdoor tests.

I hope that coverred it all.

Take care, Sal.

[Dogznova]

(Don't worry Dog, even you will have some surprises coming).

Sal I can't wait till Halloween.

We currently are getting good results with 10 hours of PAL lighting using 210w of cfl's and a 100w clear halogen inc and a 400w hps setup. We run the cfl's and the clear halogen inc for the first half of the blue day and then we run the hps only for the second half of the day. After the first two weeks of flowering are over we start to use 4 hours of red PAD lighting for a 14on 10off type of schedule. This seems to work great for us. Produces some fine hash bud. Thanks for your help :thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Just to clarify the above statement...

The first two weeks of flowering we use a standard 12/12 schedule. Then we use a 4/10/10 schedule..

[salmayo]

Whew. Been testing samples and this enhanced THC thing is starting to feel like work, so Rauber told me to take a breather after a weeks testing. I hate to say it, but I'm kinda relieved to be able to take a break.

Dog, initially a few of the other Beta's preferred 12/12 to start flowering, which is not surprising considering the drastic slow down demonstrated by some of the introductory experiences, as Mother's posts show.

Glad to hear things are developing nicely for you Dog. Gotta love those Trich's.

But (take heart Mother), refinements to the process have helped take the shock out of this early flower technique, by providing a limited amount of growth for the sake of the observers nerves and the ability to observe the progression of flowering developement.

Mother, don't get too worred about multiple cycle schedules for early flower schedules, two cycles (one Day, one Night) are plenty if they are dialed right. Rauber wondered why I was discussing using four cycles, and the truth is I was just trying to distinguish between removable pin timers and push/pull pin timers (the removable pin timers seize/jam at durations under 45 minutes).

One of the main functions that we manipulate, for the initial flowering Day duration turn down, is to reduce the total number of gene clock ticks per complete Day cycle in order to reduce overall stem elongation. Everything else being equal, stem elongation is directly proportional to metabolism or number of gene clock ticks (gene time).

We also limit photosynthetic activity to slow elongation at this turn down stage. The difference is that we limit photosynthetic input with a higher utilization of input energy, as opposed to what you've just observed, which is primarily limited by low utilization of a higher input energy.

Break time's over. -Back to stone mines. (Ever notice that it's difficult to maintain objectivity when you're higher than a kite!)

Take care, Sal.

[Dogznova]

this enhanced THC thing .

This is an understatement IMO. :thumbsup:

Sal....Back in the day (LOL) when my uncle and I used a standard 400 watt HPS 12/12 type of flowering. We could get this Diamond we have to get a slight hash taste to her after about 10 weeks of flowering. Now using 4 hours of PAD lighting and 10 hours of slightly altered PAL lighting we can get this Diamond to scream a sweet blond hash taste in 8 weeks flat. Plus I think my uncle and I only have this method about 60% to 70% correct. IMO we still have alot to learn.. It's been a fun 8 or so months...




Dog, initially a few of the other Beta's preferred 12/12 to start flowering, which is not surprising considering the drastic slow down demonstrated by some of the introductory experiences, as Mother's posts show..

Ya we've been using some of the blue light you suggested on the PAL side in the first two weeks of flowering to combat stretching and still trying to maintain some good speed. It works but I still got a lot to learn.. Can't wait till Halloween.

[farredeyed]

Long time no see, mother, dog, shake, weez, sal, hope you all had a good year. Anyone see anything about the halloween publication about martian method? Maybe I'm missing it, but I searched around a bit, so a link would be appreciated :)

[salmayo]

Still wondering, here ya go:

"Rauber Enhancement is the response between two saturating spectrum durations that occur within ninety minutes of each other, where the responses based on each time duration, rather than a response to an intermediate combination of the spectrum based on the wattages of the two spectrums." (from chapter 3 of â??Photosynthetic Articifial Darkness, Rauber Enhancement, and Rauber Enhanced PAD. 1st Edition AKA: The PAD Manual. Copyrighted 2009 Shawn Rauber, as a representative of Temporal Photonics and of the author, I have express rights to reproduce this citation of the authorâ??s copyrighted work.)

It may not sound like much, but it solves every gripe I ever heard about indoor lighting, and is a God Send to LED growers.

"PAD Manuals" will be available on eBay shortly they are currently converting from CD to paperback, due to a CD production flaw (resulting in a recall of the first batch of disks, disk will also be available in the future ~ slight delay).

Sorry for the delay, but I'm rolling with the random as it comes.

I should be back online regularly to answer your questions as best I can within the consent of the author.

Take Care, Sal.

[salmayo]

Long time no see, mother, dog, shake, weez, sal, hope you all had a good year. Anyone see anything about the halloween publication about martian method? Maybe I'm missing it, but I searched around a bit, so a link would be appreciated :)

The first press release and publication was a bust, the cheapo CD labels let loose (wrinkled, bubbled, separated), so the first batch of CD's was recalled with a hard copy release. Not the worlds most impressive entrance.

A revamped CD may be out fairly soon, we are taking advantage of one delay to multitask some things, encryption, typesetting, etc.

I've tried posting links here they never work. This site seems not to allow links to other sites.

Since I should be arround more now, I should be able to nudge towards available copy sources as soon as can confirm them.

I'll be reviewing content from the 1st edition CD, but I can't post it in whole. In fact I can't even cut and paste from it due to graphic encryption.

And now I think it's time for a ton of questions, oh joy!
(Now the real fun starts!!!)

Take Care, Sal.

[Weezard]

Good to see ya back, Sal
We were startin' to worry.

Aloha,
Weeze

[Dogznova]

And now I think it's time for a ton of questions, oh joy!
(Now the real fun starts!!!).

Are you kidding me... After reading the PAD 1st edition I have a million ?'s..LOL :thumbsup:

The first ? is..... When will timers be available? I need one ASAP

[DreadedHermie]

Hey, Sal--


"Rauber Enhancement is the response between two saturating spectrum durations that occur within ninety minutes of each other, where the responses based on each time duration, rather than a response to an intermediate combination of the spectrum based on the wattages of the two spectrums."

Is there a typo in this sentence? :confused:

I think it's supposed to read, "...where the responses are based on each time duration..."

But "...where the response is based on each time duration..." makes sense, too.

As it stands, the second part of the sentence needs a verb. (?)

If this is the final distillation of these research efforts I'd like to understand it correctly. :D

Thanks, Hermie :thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Ya hermie... He missed a few words right there... Not sure if it was by design or not. I don't think it was. He's recovering from a broken wrist and since the PAD Manual is encrypted he has to hand type it to the forum and not simply copy and past it. So the typo is understandable. Good eye though. I'm sure he will fix it. I'm not authorized to post any of the copyrighted material so I can't fix it right now...:thumbsup:

[salmayo]

It's nice to know that my title as typo king is still intact!

I concur. GOOD CALL. Thank you for catching that typo. I do make them and we do want to make this understandable (do I have a fun job or what). By all means site what seems off if you see it and I appreciate it.

Let me correct that one:

"Rauber Enhancement is the response between two saturating spectrum durations that occur within ninety minutes of each other, where the responses are based on each time duration, rather than a response to an intermediate combination of the spectrum based on the wattages of the two spectrums." (from chapter 3 of â??Photosynthetic Articifial Darkness, Rauber Enhancement, and Rauber Enhanced PAD. 1st Edition AKA: The PAD Manual. Copyrighted 2009 Shawn Rauber, as a representative of Temporal Photonics and of the author, I have express rights to reproduce this citation of the authorâ??s copyrighted work.)

Dog, you can find Inverters throu Grow Store outlets, but they may be called by other names such as "Flip Flop", "OFF Switchers" etc. As long as people aren't marketting them for our process, that's fine by us and as long as people don't use the process for over a square meter of grow space more power to you! We're only concerned about taking from us deliberately on a large scale, primarily by commercial users like large green house (~industiral use) use. We're pro home grower and 100% Pro Med User. (If you use it for two square meters and we aren't confronted by it commercially, why would we ever care!)

You can use two or three half hour or fifteen minute timers without an Inverter, but you have to make sure that the Far Red duration of one timer goes ON at or just BEFORE the (Red) PAD timers go OFF, and without an Inverter, any change in the synchronization can through the Rauber Enhanced PAD (REPAD) Time Factor (1/RATE) off, which can acts like your timer is off by up to hours not just half an hour as time lag piles up over hours of operating at the different Time Factor (1/RATE, ~Time Rate).

I've been pitching Rauber on just putting out CD's without labels. I think he'll go for it considering it's about information not CANDY WRAPPERS, but it's a sore topic after hearing one rattle inside a CD player like a Buzz Bomb (Heart Breaker).

In the mean time, just bear with me on bits and pieces.

I'll reread the last few posts to see if I missed anything.

Take Care, Sal.

[salmayo]

How's the read on the manual going? (Great, horrible or Nightmare??)

I personnally hate what that encryption makes the fonts look like. It's getting fixed in the 2nd Edition and other than some expansion, the 2nd Editon will also have an index if all goes well.

Take Care, Sal.

[Dogznova]

Sal the reading is great.. I've read it at least 10 times..It caused me to change my mind about 660nm...I can tell you my uncle and I would have never figured out that timing arrangement...LOL.... But like I said, Since I now know more of the timing aspect of things. I do have a few questions. Although one of them I think you just answered for me in the previous post.... "Far Red duration of one timer goes ON at or just BEFORE the (Red) PAD timers go OFF".... So no (SID) gaps in between the two spectrums...Sweet I was going to ask this question.. All of my questions will be based on a 3x3 area since this is what my uncle uses, just so everyone knows.

1. Can the PAD far red be black light or dose it have to be 730nm LED? And how much PAD far red wattage is good for a 3x3 area? 1 60 watt black light or more?

Also can I ask questions about the Blue (on time) spectrums and the red (on time) spectrums?


My uncle has a few of those half hour interval timers on hand, The ones that have the half hour pins that are not removable. My uncle used them for a hydro drip system, half hour on half hour off kind of setup. I think the manual talks about using these kind of timers for the (PAD) Red and Far Red synchronization... On the hydro store front. I have seen these type of timers there... C.A.P. ART-DNe Adjustable Recycle Timer... but at $80 a piece at a minimum for one and we need two. I think I'll Waite for a TP timer. In the mean time we will be playing around with the cheep ol half hour pin type timers for sure.:thumbsup:

[salmayo]

I think you just answered for me in the previous post.... "Far Red duration of one timer goes ON at or just BEFORE the (Red) PAD timers go OFF".... So no (SID) gaps in between the two spectrums...Yes, a SID gap after a Red duration start out acting like Red on time and then SLOWLY goes throu a transition to SID like behavior. And if that wasn't fun enough this kind of thing is sensitive to temperature, pH and secondary genetics.

In this .5/.5 example.

A (short) SID gap following Red acts similar to Red, effectively lengthening the Red duration and shortening the Far Red duration in terms of plant responce, making the plant go slower. The overlap in Red plus Far Red acts as a third mixed spectrum duration depending on wattages.

A (short) SID gap following Far Red acts similar to Far Red, effectively lengthening the Far Red duration in terms of plant responce while subtracting from the Far Red duration, making the plant go slower. The overlap in Red plus Far Red acts as a third mixed spectrum duration depending on wattages.

Small wonder we recommend Inverters rather than the lesser of these two evils.

Your other questions:

1. Yes, you can use Incandescent Blacklights for Far Red sources. How much wattage is determined by your canopy depth, but plant hight is the easiest thing to measure and use. Check the Intensity Chapter on Minimum Intensity recommendations it should cover it, but if it still isn't clear, post me and I'll review the chapter for you in my responce.

The other questions:

Blue spectrum data is provided to help growers understand "Day" lighting spectrums and is basically needed for secondary the photoperiodic timing considerations. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "(on time) spectrums", could you clarify that a bit so I can be a little specific. Not quite sure what the question was there (it'll probably come to me later).

Yep, those half hour timers are the most common kind, that's why we use them as a standard in the manual.

Those cycle timers on the other hand are an over price nightmare to use. Not recommended.

Take Care, Sal.

[Dogznova]

Hi sal.... Looking more closely at my copy of the PAD manual.. It looks like mine got cut short in the email. It stops at chapter 9 Advanced Rauber Enhancement Flowering.
I think my questions would be much more limited if I had chapters 10,11,12,13... Could you maybe resend those chapters to me in my email...Thanks:thumbsup:

BTW.. Great explanation on the SID gaps between the PAD red and far red spectrums...Thanks

[Dogznova]

Sal sorry.... I was able to find the other chapters.. I have to spend some time reading the rest.. I'm sure I will have some ?'s:thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Ok here is the 1st edition of the PAD manual. You can find it at the Temporal Photonics page at MySpace . Just click on the pic link.. Here is the link Enjoy:thumbsup:

MySpace - Temporal Photonics - 17 - Male - CHICO, California - myspace.com/temporalphotonics (http://www.myspace.com/temporalphotonics)

[salmayo]

You can get to The 1st Edition PAD Manual pages by clicking on the "my pics" link in the main page that's jsut under the avatar area with the Temporal Photonics logo in it.

Take care, Sal.

[mainegrown]

i like the manual and pass on my thoughts to Rauber.. if he is reading then thanks has cleared up many questions. unfortunatly my head is pretty un-straight from lack of sleep and i dont think that all i am reading is sinking in.
-j

[Micsog]

so i took the time to read the first log and what is of the second and i understand most of it as i understand light spectrum a bit but i grow in a small
cab that i built 2'lx2'wx2'dx3't and i run 4-65w 2700k at 4000lum a piece if i add a couple red cfl's an red inc's to the first half of my SID time in my cab will it keep my plants shorter and with fatter buds or no? will it speed up my grow time? it just intrigues me and would hope i could get the same results with a simpler approach but if i have too i will try the whole method in a separate cab it seems promising to me but i've only been growing indoors for a couple seasons as i used to live farther south and grew outdoors for about 8 years this is the first time i've asked questions about growing from anyone other than my mentor a 40 plus year veteran of cultivating cannabis and he would just tell me to do as i'm told i.e. 18/6-12/12

[salmayo]

i grow in a small cab that i built 2'lx2'wx2'dx3't and i run 4-65w 2700k at 4000lum a piece if i add a couple red cfl's an red inc's to the first half of my SID time in my cab will it keep my plants shorter and with fatter buds or no? will it speed up my grow time? it just intrigues me and would hope i could get the same results with a simpler approach but if i have too i will try the whole method in a separate cab it seems promising to me but i've only been growing indoors for a couple seasons as i used to live farther south and grew outdoors for about 8 years this is the first time i've asked questions about growing from anyone other than my mentor a 40 plus year veteran of cultivating cannabis and he would just tell me to do as i'm told i.e. 18/6-12/12

Red Inc.'s (red light) is very slow both in terms of Time Factor (1/Rate) and metabolism, which is why Red LEDs don't hardly work without either additional spectrums or Rauber Enhancement.

All top lit Inc.'s contribute excessive to sub canopy stem elongation, Rauber Enhancement doesn't. Adding Inc.'s up to one third FLORO or equal HID wattage fattens up the buds and hasten's finishing, but not usually grams per Watt yeilds. Or could run the fire hazard of running half those incandescent wattages from sub canopy lighting, which give better results, but I hate the fire hazard issue. I aim a spot light up through the plant and out through the Cola of choice. Since THC responces are localized in terms of Red/FR ratio, so you can experiment with sub areas of your grow space to gauge results before upgrading the full grow space.

When you used mixed light systems we call it a wattage based system, because their wattages determine responce, and in this case adding Red CFL without Rauber Enhancement would slow grow and lower efficiency compared to ADDing 1/3 THE WATTAGE (off the top of my head about 86 watts?) OF YOUR CFL's IN THE FORM OF CLEAR INC.'S.

Adding PAD to the first half of your SID hours slows things down more than adding it at the end. Also slowing down the time rate during your "Day" light period has a cumulative slow down effect of the following SID, but not PAD, duraton.

Sorry if that didn't cover is all, I gotta run, but you should read the PAD manual listed in the pictures directory of the Temporal Photonics Myspace page, in case you have any more questions before I get a chance to respond again.

Take care, Sal.

[Dogznova]

Adding Inc.'s up to one third FLORO or equal HID wattage fattens up the buds and hasten's finishing..
Hasten's... means faster right?


Also slowing down the time rate during your "Day" light period has a cumulative slow down effect of the following SID, but not PAD, duraton..
Is this referring to adding clear inc's to the "day" light or red inc's?..:thumbsup:

[Dogznova]

Sal... I found the definition sorry.....To move in a quick fashion; To make someone speed up or make something happen quicker.. I had to look that up...LOL... I thought it meant slow down..:thumbsup:

[salmayo]

Is this referring to adding clear inc's to the "day" light or red inc's?..:thumbsup:

Either Clear or Red Inc.'s added to the "lights on" schedule leaves the plants clock and metabolism running faster when the lights first turn out and then through the rest of a SID Interval.

The light spectrums don't run the metabolism directly but through alterring populations of molecules that do, but altering the populations takes time itself, so there is a lag. There are lags like this in all such alterations in the form of transition time, but even during the transition the metabolism is changing in direct proportion to those molecular populations.

To make the car go, first someone had to put gas in the tank, but most people would just say push the gas pedal, which is unfortunately not always correct.

Take care, Sal.

[Micsog]

ok i get it kinda so that is what i'll do. 1/3 of my cfl wattage or 1/3 lumens i saw those halogen clear inc's at wally's and use it sub canopy and try to localize the effects what about the red inc's at the end of the cycle i thought
someone said it wakes them up but also make them think there getting more
SID

[salmayo]

Red Inc.'s emit Red, Far Red and No Blue, which Rauber defines as PAD (Photosynthetic Artificial Darkness).

Since SID is "Standard Indoor Darkness", both SID and PAD are recognized as darkness to the plants senses, but Red Inc.'s PAD spectrum causes the plants timer to run slower while providing Red as a Photosynthesis source.

The usual advantage of PAD, is both greater Photosynthesis and pigment pigment synthsis (THC) compared to SID.

In general I would say yes to your last question, and the exceptions are PAD spectrums so Far Red dominant that your probably never going to used them for photosynthetic and pigment synthetic lighting alone (unless you were using Rauber Enhancement which greatley modifies these effects.

The only draw back of Red Inc.'s I'd say is the same for spectrums with both Red and Far Red signalling, since the absorption going through the canopy reduces the Red Signal, while leaving the Far Red signal largely unaffected by leaf absorption, but somewhat absorbed by dense woody stem type grow. This causes high Far Red to Red ratios (~ low Red to Far Red ratios), which triggers stem elongation, on the other side of the plant that the Red Inc. source (Red Inc. on top, stem elongation on the bottom. Red Inc. below, stem elongation above. etc.)

I think of excessive stem elongation as grow WITHOUT what would otherwise be desired sythesis of molecule compounds or leafs by weight (useless woody paperry grow, PULP). Half as much stem grow with more syntesis of desired compounds (THC!) would be far more desirable.

Compared to Red Far Red spectrums Rauber Enhancement provides fairly uniform stem elongation top to bottom, side to side (volumetric uniformity), which tends to provide more compound synthesis top to bottom, side to side by it's nature.

Take care, Sal.

[Micsog]

your the shit man! so it don't make it produce more then normal amount of weight it just packs into a better package so to say

[Dogznova]

your the shit man!

I've been saying this for over a year now.....LOL :thumbsup:

[salmayo]

your the shit man! so it don't make it produce more then normal amount of weight it just packs into a better package so to say

It's more than that even.

Since components working together at optimized ratios function better, not only is the growth more uniform, but larger.

Take care, Sal.

[growboys]

Ok.. finally finished reading the posts from Sal, mother & gang on canibus.com and their grows. MM etc.. MM try #2

One thing I think is missing is an accurate measurement of output of different lighting sources. Not just output but that is part of the calculation. At the moment it seems that people are using a variety of lighting sources including LED's from god knows which company using which chipset and what encapsulation material which may reduce wavelength output of UV etc.. additionally different chipsets produce different spectrum's. That said.. for white lights an efficiency rating for photosynthetic reaction, and absorption must be calculated. Some refer to PAR but that is a term that far too many toss around. Each is unique to the manufacturer. Your light calcualtions are based I think.. on the trial and error calculations you, yourself have calculated for each light.

I think it would benefit the growing community to address these trial and error calculations by doing a study with a set parameter. Chipset etc.. etc.. although chipsets change in power they rarely change wavelength or overall efficiency. Provided you use the same chipset manufacturer and encapsulation media.

Mother's lights for the MM#1 & MM#2 were a very old type of LED from at least 2 years ago from the looks of it. Since the technology changes at such a fast pace (usually every 6 months). I will attempt to standardize some things here in my head.

At the moment we have been talking about "Blue Light" in PAL, then a period of SID (Regular Darkness), and then a mixture of near and far red in PAD.

Looking at the photosynthetic action spectrum which has been scientifically calculated by several Universities for standard hemp plants, tomatoes & hops the peaks are at roughly 440nm and 660nm respectively.

Thing is, currently the most "blue" output in the 460nm level is not produced by a "blue" LED but rather a "white" LED. For instance the 12000k Cree 1w LED produces 99lm while the 460nm produces 18lm .. now as we know that white spectrum is over a vast number of wavelengths. Now with mathematics software the volume of any point under the graph (between any wavelength span) can be calculated and then divided by total area (to give a percentage of volume compared with total output and then multiplied by the lm output of the LED. In this manner.. although white light is all spectrum the white Cree is actually still has nearly 2X the blue content output as a blue LED.

For regular growing cycle. I wonder what effect a white LED would have on these calculations?

[Dogznova]

GB what's up? Have you read the PAD manual? If not you might want to give it a quick read. Unfortunately both of these treads were done before we could read the PAD manual. So you see SID being used in the mix (because we didn't know better). But Rauber's Enhanced 24hr flowering method uses no SID. Just thought I would put that out there..:thumbsup:

As far as using white led's as the PAL lighting in a PAD lighting setup.. I would think you could.. The results might be like using 630nm instead of 660nm. Yes 630nm will work for PAD lighting BUT 660nm hits the bulls eye. I've done the 24hr flowering using an HPS and a MH as my PAL lighting, I think the MH did a better job in my PAD setup.

Hopefully Sal will post a response.

P.S. There is also a couple of treads in the advanced section on this site. The treads are UV an experiment and HID time factor manipulation and another one I can't seem to remember at this time sorry, but if you look you will be able to find it.

[clongo]

I cannot access the PAD manual on myspace could someone please pm it to me