HID & LED

[Horsemanrocks]

Iâ??m in the planning stages of a DWC. It looks like itâ??s going to be 6 buckets. The grow room is 5 feet wide by 2 ½ feet deep.
Iâ??m contemplating a 250W HID in the center with 1 GrowPanel 45 at each end. Hereâ??s a link for the LEDâ??s led grow lights -Sunshine Systems : The GlowPanel 45 LED Grow Light (http://shop.sunshine-systems.com/product.sc?productId=10)
I need some heat as I live at altitude and the winters get quite cold and Iâ??m not really interested in supplying supplemental heat just for itâ??s sake alone. And the summers get above 90 degrees from time to time, so too much heat isn't so good either.
If the LEDâ??s perform anywhere close to as advertised there should be lots of light that can get pretty close.
And opinions as to how the LEDâ??s might perform during veg is also of interest.
Oldmac has just posted a grow using both combined Iâ??ll definitely want his opinion as well as all opinions as to the viability.
:(

[oldmac]

Hello Horsemanrocks,

First I looked at your link, I have not seen those panels so it is hard to say much about them. With panels like that, obviously man in China, I would like to know some more specs on the diodes they are using. As to thier claims of equal to 250w hps from 45w, I doubt it. Same goes for claims that UFO's at 90 watts equal 600hps. That is why so many say bad things about LEDs.

You have a rather narrow and long area to deal with, you need to come up with something to get and even distribution of light.

Remember that LEDs don't have the light penetration of HPS, thier effective light drops off faster as distance increase. Sorta why I'm trying to hybred them to T5s, they don't penetrate far either. Sounds strange I know, but really perfect to grow single cola style plants.

Let's see if anybody else has some ideas (HEY WEEZARD), I need to sleep on it.

[Horsemanrocks]

oldmac Iâ??m quite happy to get your inputâ?¦WeeZard too if heâ??s interested.
The reason to question the viability is that the 45watt LED equaling the 250W HID seemed a little bit much for me to believe too. 5 feet wide by 2 ½â?? deep is 12 ½ sq feet. A 250W HID in the center with a questionable 250W LED at each end would be a theoretical 750W overall divided by 12.5 sq feet = 60W per sq foot. But then what would it be really, something less I imagine.
The whole thing could be resolved with (2) 250W HIDâ??s side x side, but Iâ??d like the heat and energy savings by combining the twoâ?¦.(HID & LED). After seeing the pictures that you posted of using the two in the same grow I thought that you might have a better idea of what Iâ??d really end up with.
As far as lack of penetrationâ?¦I figured to SCROG it so that penetration wouldnâ??t be so much of an issue. And the Jorge Cervantes book leads me to think that the lowered heat values would allow for getting the light closer to the tops.

[oldmac]

Yo Horseman,

One of the biggest problems with LEDs is the exaggerated claims made by many who are only looking to make money, and don't really care about what they make.

SCROG is a great indoor growing technique, lots of colas packed in to give a good continous canopy. Plus fewer plants total, which could be a good thing in some legal situations.

Now to your situation;
I like the combination of HPS and LEDs, they should compliment each other well. My first choice would be to combine your 250w HPS with a Procyon 100. I would bolt them close together and mount them on a light rail. This will spread out your light to cover the 5' length easily, plus it spreads the heat of the 250hps around some. Light penertration is so much better since the "angle of attack" of the light to the plant changes constantly, allowing light to hit ares that normally would be shaded with a fixed light. (it's also fun to watch!)
Intial price of the Procyon is higher then some lights (china made) but you're getting proven excellent LEDs (Cree Xlamps).

A less expensive deal would be cheap knockoffs...........
speaking of cheap knockoffs, I'll see if Weezard has 2 cents to spend here.

[Horsemanrocks]

Yeah, if I want to stay legal Iâ??m limited to 6 (mature) plants.

I guess that what attracted me to my proposed idea was that the two LEDâ??s @ $140 ea would only amount to $280. The Procyon 100 is listed @ $599.

I probably could look further, but even the 4â?? light mover from Hydrofarm demands a 1â?? clearance on either end netting a 6â?? overall spaceâ?¦mine is 5 feet. Iâ??m beginning to imagine that shorter light movers arenâ??t around because who wants to move light such a small distance. Iâ??m thinking that a spread of fixed lighting may be my only solution.

Procyon 50â??s are listed @ $199 ea. With the 250W HID in the center flanked by a pair of Procyon 50â??s. The sad thing is that they each draw 4.2 amps. That doesnâ??t sound like what Iâ??m trying to accomplish.

The Cervantes book gives me the idea that a 250W Hid would cover a spread of 3â?? x 3â??. If it was closer yet it would only need to cover 2 ½â?? x 2 ½â?? ( the depth of the flower room) that leaves a 2 ½â?? spread (width) to be covered by the 2 LED panels. Thatâ??s 15â?� X 30â?� for ea LED (theyâ??re more directional, so that may be tough to do) I guess that Iâ??d hoped that even the GrowPanel 45 might pull that off.

Iâ??m fully aware that Iâ??m a cheap bastardâ?¦.and to compound that Iâ??m also a do it right the first time kind of guy. On top of everything the idea of dumping excess heat is hard for me to swallow. The American way is to want quality, want it cheap, and to have it right now. Woe is me, woe is me!

I thank you again for taking the time to help me think this through.

[Weezard]

...
Procyon 50â??s are listed @ $199 ea. With the 250W HID in the center flanked by a pair of Procyon 50â??s. The sad thing is that they each draw 4.2 amps. That doesnâ??t sound like what Iâ??m trying to accomplish.

The Cervantes book gives me the idea that a 250W Hid would cover a spread of 3â?? x 3â??. If it was closer yet it would only need to cover 2 ½â?? x 2 ½â?? ( the depth of the flower room) that leaves a 2 ½â?? spread (width) to be covered by the 2 LED panels. Thatâ??s 15â?� X 30â?� for ea LED (theyâ??re more directional, so that may be tough to do) I guess that Iâ??d hoped that even the GrowPanel 45 might pull that off.

Iâ??m fully aware that Iâ??m a cheap bastardâ?¦.and to compound that Iâ??m also a do it right the first time kind of guy. On top of everything the idea of dumping excess heat is hard for me to swallow. The American way is to want quality, want it cheap, and to have it right now. Woe is me, woe is me!

I thank you again for taking the time to help me think this through.

<Poof>
Someone holler for a tiny gecko's opinion up in here?

Aloha from another cheap bastard HMR.:D
I'm un-impressed by the growpanels, and with that website.
It's all hyperbole heaven over dere.

Here's a couple pennies.
I think you will do much better with a UFO or so.
They are all over e-bay. 'cause there a chinese company making them to order.
They offer samples for $135.
So, there are some decent ones to be had for about $200 USD.

Addem to a 250W HPS and ya got synergy.
The HPS will provide a little slow fading far red in the evening which, (I think), is all that Leds lack.
That said, be careful. there are some pretty dodgy folks on da bay sellin' "UFO-like" excrement.
Ask them about actual current draw.
You want to hear over 750ma.
They evade, you bail.

Gotta run, but a I have a few more opinions if you are interested.

Aloha,
Wee Zard

[DreadedHermie]

Horseman, the HGL site hasn't been updated in months. If you attempt to order any products directly through that site, you will see either an "out of stock" or "discontinued" notice. Been like that since before I started building my own light. I know this because I was gonna build a couple of 50 watt kits myself, so I started watching to see when I could order. (This was, again, months ago.) Finally got tired of waiting and built from scratch.

[Horsemanrocks]

Of course I want your opinion/opinionsâ?¦â?¦all of them. Iâ??m not out here asking because I already know the answers. Iâ??ll also take opinions as to a more optimal setup if thatâ??s what you have in mindâ?¦.Iâ??m only dealing with what I could imagine.

Iâ??m not exactly sure why a watt +/- per led is important, but after reading some of your posts in the past, Iâ??m satisfied that I wouldnâ??t exactly understand the explanation. Maybe I never was that goodâ?¦..but my electronics training was when I was a muuccch younger man. But then almost everything (that I can remember) was when I was a much younger man. No need to explainâ?¦.Iâ??ll simply take your word.

With a 90W LED on either endâ?¦.it looks like â??my futureâ??s so bright, I gotta wear shadesâ?� Timbuk3

Lots of options on ebay, thereâ??s even one with the red, blue, and warm white Whoa
It looks like a number of them advertise 1W per. Theyâ??re running about $185. Although I do see the value over paying $140 on something useless. Damn that oldmac for making me pay for quality
I will even take a particular sellers name (ebay) if youâ??re willing to assist in the qualifing.

With 90W of current draw, is the heat comparable. Iâ??d always imagined that it was considerably lessâ?¦.but those cooling vents on the top of the UFO look pretty serious! My electronics background reminds that watts have to equal heat somehow. Si o No

Is there enough blue in a UFO to put up a respectable veg?

Aloha,
Haole Horseman

[Weezard]

"I will even take a particular sellers name (ebay) if youâ??re willing to assist in the qualifing.

Might seem like pimpin'.
They frown on that around here.;)
But, I'll root about and see what I find.


With 90W of current draw, is the heat comparable. Iâ??d always imagined that it was considerably lessâ?¦.but those cooling vents on the top of the UFO look pretty serious! My electronics background reminds that watts have to equal heat somehow. Si o No

They look serious but they're just 3 small, cheap, muffin fans.
Leds don't radiate heat like incandescent lights or HPS/MH.
That's why we can have the lights right down on the canopy.
LEDs produce heat at the diode junction.
So we have to suck the heat out the back and dispose of it.


Is there enough blue in a UFO to put up a respectable veg?"

There is in the one I have.

[attachment=o218241]

I'm quite pleased with it and I have several homebrewed lights to compare it to. Of course vegging is easy, I've vegged under 14 Watts of R n B

Lemme get this disclaimer out of the way.
Notice:
This lizard is not an expert at anything but loafing.
I don't have "the one true way" . I'm just an old fart who has plenty of time to think about things and a budget that mothers my need to cobble together my own lights.


Got to thinking about HPS vs LED budwise, the other day.

Read some feller posit that what was missing from bi-color leds was that useless spike of yellow that sodium generates, so they started adding amber leds.:wtf::silly:


Hmm, I got a different take on it.
First.
400 Watts of LEDs will produce as much or more bud than 400 Watts of HPS.
Why bother, yah?
My goal is the same yeild with less than half the power consumed.

I don't think adding an amber or warm white emitter here and there will do very much good. (don't shoot, just my opinion)
The other difference from leds is how the lights turn on and off.
The HPS come up gradually, and when they fade to black, they radiate quite a bit of far red light.
Will adding far red at lights out produce fatter, tighter buds?
Ah dunno. But I have a small experiment going to find out.

Meanwhile we are testing some high output 660 nm. led arrays.
So far, I'm impressed.


(How 'bout your light DH?
Had enought time to compare it to your HPS grow yet?)


I used DWC for the last couple of mothers, but have started using coco for the bloomery now that I'll be SOGing many small clones instead of 2 or 3 beeg girls.
I don't have a lot of experience with either method but will offer help where I can.


I like your plan and will pull up a chair.:cool:

Weezard

[Horsemanrocks]

Might seem like pimpin'.
They frown on that around here.
But, I'll root about and see what I find.
When I ask for your directionâ?¦..It ainâ??t pimpinâ??. Iâ??m just thinking that your experienced eye might not overlook something that Iâ??m totally unaware of. Besides thatâ?¦.a couple of old guys with â??growsâ?� have more important things to be concerned with.

They look serious but they're just 3 small, cheap, muffin fans.
Leds don't radiate heat like incandescent lights or HPS/MH.
That's why we can have the lights right down on the canopy.
LEDs produce heat at the diode junction.
So we have to suck the heat out the back and dispose of it
Ok, the heat is dissipated out the back and not towards the growâ?¦that part I like. But the heat is still created and still needs to be removed. (I never quitâ?¦.do I). Donâ??t get me wrongâ?¦You be daâ?? man. If the UFOâ??s are even close to equal to 600W Hidâ??s , then I donâ??t really need that much light. 600 X 2 + 250 1450 watts in 12 ½ sq ft. Thatâ??s only 116 watts per sq ft. You can see that I havenâ??t completely given up on smaller flanking Ledâ??s. If there was a quality Led in the 50W range (at a reasonable price) Iâ??d still be considering that option.
Can you have too much light?

Lemme get this disclaimer out of the way.
Notice:
This lizard is not an expert at anything but loafing.
I don't have "the one true way" . I'm just an old fart who has plenty of time to think about things and a budget that mothers my need to cobble together my own lights.
Are you beginning to think that I have too much time to think also ;)

Will adding far red at lights out produce fatter, tighter buds?
Ah dunno. But I have a small experiment going to find out.
Always interested in the results of a good experiment. I kinda feel that thatâ??s what Iâ??m doing now as the Hid/Led combo doesnâ??t look much like a popular experiment.

(How 'bout your light DH?
Had enought time to compare it to your HPS grow yet?)
DHâ?¦..huh?
Havenâ??t grown anything beyond garden vegetables yetâ?¦..and screwing around with all this minutia I probably never will. LOL

I like your plan and will pull up a chair.
Donâ??t sit on the edge of your seatâ?¦.I live rather rurally (kind of like living on the big island) and the accumulation process is oh so slow and painful. But then slow as I am, I am one persistent S.O.B.

Mahalo nui loa
Aloha
Haole Horseman

[oldmac]

Horseman, the HGL site hasn't been updated in months. If you attempt to order any products directly through that site, you will see either an "out of stock" or "discontinued" notice. Been like that since before I started building my own light. I know this because I was gonna build a couple of 50 watt kits myself, so I started watching to see when I could order. (This was, again, months ago.) Finally got tired of waiting and built from scratch.

Hermie,

Thanks for updating me on that, I knew Ryan was getting out of the 5mm business and concnetrating on the hi power Cree's. Did not realize the 50watters where not available yet.

NOTE: The amp draw given for the 50w is a typo, it probably should be .42!

[oldmac]

Hey Horseman,

There's nothing wrong with being a cheap bastard, especially in this day and age. I myself have gotten very frugal, since I went broke. The only reason you see me playing with some expensive lights is I bought them when times where much better for me. In fact I had a couple of Porcyons up till a few months ago when a opportunity arose to sell them. Back to a 400w MH for my mom room, which the Procyons did for 1/2 the wattage.

Thought the UFOs might be less expensive. Looking at Ebay I noticed the same prices as Weez, plus with the HPS you don't need to worry about those "tri-bands" one which seem to cost more. Noticed also alot of them now are using 660 reds, and that's a good thing.

[Weezard]

"(How 'bout your light DH?
Had enought time to compare it to your HPS grow yet?)
DHâ?¦..huh?"

Sorry, that was an aside to DH, (DreadedHermie).
He built an array of 6. 15 W. 660nm. and 2. 15W blue Ledengin emitters and replaced his HPS with it.
It's been in service longer than my new array has.

"But the heat is still created and still needs to be removed. (I never quitâ?¦.do I). Donâ??t get me wrongâ?¦You be daâ?? man.

Denied! I be da t90 'zard.
Bein' "da man" is too much like work.:D

If the UFOâ??s are even close to equal to 600W Hidâ??s , then I donâ??t really need that much light. 600 X 2 + 250 1450 watts in 12 ½ sq ft.

Apples n Oranges, brah.

Thatâ??s only 116 watts per sq ft. You can see that I havenâ??t completely given up on smaller flanking Ledâ??s. If there was a quality Led in the 50W range (at a reasonable price) Iâ??d still be considering that option.

You can DIY a 65W. light from off-the-shelf parts if you wish.
It is easier than it looks.

Can you have too much light?"

Yes!
Noon sun in Hawaii exceeds 91k lux.
At about 91k., (solar spectrum of cuss), photosynthesis stops and plants stop growing.
Kick it up a notch and leaves will "bleach" and reject/reflect all light.
From 2" away the 15W. emitters will give ya white polka-dots on yer top leaves

Now, I'll go rummage about on "da bay", for an honest UFO dealer.
Where'd I put that Diagones lamp? Aha! Here 'tis.

Be back wiki wiki, (with any luck).
Weeze.

[Weezard]

Here's the folks that I ordered from.
http://cgi.ebay.com/New-90W-LED-UFO-Hydroponic-Lamp-Grow-Light-Free-Post_W0QQitemZ220355104480QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_2?hash=item334e300ee0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1307%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50 (http://cgi.ebay.com/New-90W-LED-UFO-Hydroponic-Lamp-Grow-Light-Free-Post_W0QQitemZ220355104480QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_2?hash=item334e300ee0&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C 240%3A1307%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50)
Call themselves tinybearshop.
Shipped fast and no shipping charges.
It's a decent copy of the original UFO.
625nm. red but it does veg very well.

Enjoy.
Weeze

[Horsemanrocks]

Alright Iâ??m back
Damn, someone at the doorâ?¦..back in a flash.
��������
Whew, it was only the IRS claiming that I owed them lots of money. I was afraid it might have been the â??pimpinâ?? copsâ?�â?¦..You DONâ??T want the pimpinâ?? cops at your door. Donâ??t worry though WeeZard, I would never rat you out. Your secret is safe with me, but Iâ??m not so sure about oldmac and that dreaded Hermie guyâ?¦.keep a close eye on those two.:)

I very much appreciate you looking out for me. Iâ??ll go take a look!

Mahalo nui loa
Aloha
Haole Horseman

[Weezard]

Gave me a chuckle dere, paniolo guy.:lol5:

Mahalo nui,
Wee Zard

[DreadedHermie]

NOTE: The amp draw given for the 50w is a typo, it probably should be .42!


But I think he meant it. I just looked at the specs closer, and this is just a populated 12V led harness with no power supply. Ryan was recommending a computer ATX to power the unit. Doesn't say whether any kind of current control is integral in this offering, or whether you have to figger that out fer yerself, or what. :wtf:

Anyway, if you power it with 4.2 amps at 12 volts, that comes out to 50.4W. Pretty sure that's what he meant.

I've got 4.7A powering 4 x 15W reds @ 10.6V. (calculates) = 49.82 watts. In the ball park, anyway....

But, again, it's a moot point. Ya can't get this item, and I would expect his next offering, if there is one, to use higher powered leds. And if it's a DIY kit, some kinda current control. If you hafta figure that out for yourself you don't need no stinkin' kit!

[DreadedHermie]

(How 'bout your light DH?
Had enought time to compare it to your HPS grow yet?)


Looks okay so far. My bagseed grow flourished with the speed of a stalagmite under HPS, so I can only expect the same from leds.

[attachment=o218313]

[attachment=o218314]

[attachment=o218315]

[attachment=o218316]

[Weezard]

Looks okay so far. My bagseed grow flourished with the speed of a stalagmite under HPS, so I can only expect the same from leds.

[attachment=o218313]

[attachment=o218314]

[attachment=o218315]

[attachment=o218316]

Gorgeous!:greenthumb::greenthumb::greenthumb:

No amber leds, no UVb, no supermonsterbudliquidlightbatshitthrivearoonie?
Just a splash of blue light, a metric shitload of deep red and some attention, yah?

Gee golly whiz, Mr. science. Can I try this at home?:tin foil hat:
Can I , huh?:cool:

Impressive!
Weeze

[Horsemanrocks]

Hermieâ?¦..my local dump has a separate section for electronics. Computer power supplies move through there all the time. I wouldnâ??t be surprised if it wouldnâ??t be possible to spirit some away or at worst pay a very small price for them. If youâ??re interested Iâ??ll look into it.:cool:

[oldmac]

Hey Hermie,

Thanks for correcting me, again ( I really I'm confused easily) about the 50w mini-pro. When I read the 4.2 amps, I just put 50w against 120v (in my head) and got .42 amps, forgot that it was sans power supply or there's more then one way to get to 50watts.

Really nice pics! Looks like the making of something good.

Yeah Weez,

That's what I need to get also "a metric shitload of far red". (but knowing me I'd want to add some other spectrums)

[DreadedHermie]

No amber leds, no UVb, no supermonsterbudliquidlightbatshitthrivearoonie?
Just a splash of blue light, a metric shitload of deep red and some attention, yah?


What looks like a third fan on my lamp is a can of tuna. (It's ballast, moving it around fine-tunes the aim of the light.)

Amber, UV, IR, who needs it??

[attachment=o218338]

[DreadedHermie]

Yikes! Did a little preliminary smoke-test on the items depicted in post #18, resulting in the post above (which seemed to make sense at the time). :stoned:

This strain will meet my medical needs fine. This bud is far more potent than the bag it came from. Like by a factor of 10-20x stronger, subjectively. Wife and I were bouncing off the walls, :yippee::giggity::dance::rastabanna: and ate everything in the refrigerator. My little snack consisted of canned tuna, yogurt, grape nuts, beer, wine, and an omelette. And I'm pretty sure I broke whatever "rules" there may be regarding what kinda stuff can be used as omelette ingredients, too. :eat::glugglug: And, some poker chips seem to be missing. :wtf:


Point is, these plants were started under combination 400W HPS and a Procyon 100. When it started getting too hot I replaced the HPS with a home-brewed led light.

So Horseman, I think your plan is sound. My grow space is similar to yours, and a 400W HPS was just too much heat for that small a closet. A 250 should be just right to pound the plants at fairly close range.

If it's chilly and you can open the room up, the HPS will help heat your living area with a cheery glow. When it's warmer, you may have better results decommissioning the HPS in favor of all-LEDs. Depends on your ability to dispose of waste heat.

I also considered light movers, for my long, narrow space. Definitely worth consideration, but for the expense and installation hassle of a mover, I can build an extra light and get direct, full time coverage. If you can acquire a couple good UFO's to flank your 250, you'd be in good shape. Perhaps a third UFO or a Procyon to substitute for the HPS when weather demands it. You could also substitute CFL's or T-5's for the HPS, but even those approaches created too much heat for me in summer.

So as time passes I'm maturing girls that are closer and closer to "All led grown." And they're getting very potent, more so than I was able to do with the HPS, just because of the heat.

And Horseman, thanks for the kind thought, but I've got a backup power supply or two layin' around somewhere. No need to ship that stuff. It's more "green" to acquire electronics surplus locally. :thumbsup:

[Horsemanrocks]

Looks like Tinybearshopsâ?? computer is downâ?¦..must beâ?¦as they have a problem with answering email. There is another seller with the same UFO with only 3 feedback, 2 of which were purchases, and one was from tinybearshop. Life is longâ?¦Iâ??ll work it out.

This whole thing is making me very paranoid. Every time a Ford Fiesta pulls up behind me I have to ditch emâ??. (Thatâ??s what the pimpinâ?? cops drive in SoCal) With all those radios and Helicopter gunship support and such it takes some hard driving to get clear. I had to drive until dark, ditch the truck and run the last 5 miles through seas of poison ivy and sticker bushes.

Tinybearshop did return an email so I bid on a ufo @ $175â?¦.could save $5 who knows. Found a 250W Lumatek advertised, electronic ballast, bulbs, & hood for $150 (he hasnâ??t returned my call yet)

Itâ??s beginning to warm up in SoCal and I canâ??t seem to get my grow room over 71 degrees. It draws fresh air from under the house (cooler in summer, warmer in winter) so Iâ??m beginning to feel like this Turkey is gonna fly.

Canâ??t easily get the humidity above 25% so a small humidifier is in the near future.

Yeah Hermie excess heat is the game. I have an 80 cfm fan in, and yesterday I put in a â??futureâ?� 4â?� vent so that itâ??ll be there if and when needed. Canâ??t really decide whether Iâ??ll end up needing a vented hood or notâ?¦..whatâ??s your opinion?

Iâ??m wondering what the effects would be if the Hid cycled on and off and left the Led,s on throughout the 12 hr cycle. A little heat managementâ?¦..but then who knows, Iâ??ll know more as things get going whether I have a heat problem or not.

Aloha,
Paniolo Guy

[Weezard]

What looks like a third fan on my lamp is a can of tuna. (It's ballast, moving it around fine-tunes the aim of the light.)

Amber, UV, IR, who needs it??



Marketing, that's who.
Whataya, tryin' ta do hoit de ecomony?!

Now you've done it lad!

Betta buy stock in odor sock!
When da U Foe floggers see dis
an start addin' da missing wavelength to warm lights...
We gonna be bazillionaires, brah!:dance:

Yer killin' me wit wit,

Weeze

[oldmac]

Hey Horse,

I tried to warn you, if Weez came over here to help you.....

we'd all start to hang out on your porch.

[Weezard]

He's only right ya know.
We're an un-ruly lot.

Aloha.
Weeze

[Horsemanrocks]

Lemme get this disclaimer out of the way.
Notice:
This lizard is not an expert at anything but loafing.
I don't have "the one true way" . I'm just an old fart who has plenty of time to think about things and a budget that mothers my need to cobble together my own lights.

Betta buy stock in odor sock!
When da U Foe floggers see dis
an start addin' da missing wavelength to warm lights...
We gonna be bazillionaires, brah!

Maybe it would be easier to simply move to South America, that way at least you could become a Brazilionaire.

This whole home grow thing is taking a lot of time in educating myself in so many aspects and accumulating things that simply arenâ??t available easily. I have assembled a PC board or two in the past. Maybe when the learning curve falls off and I have more time (and the 3 of you are willing) you can guide me through a supplemental panel to add the missing spectrum/s to the ufoâ??s that Iâ??m starting with.

Adios,
Paniolo Guy

[Horsemanrocks]

The three of you are welcome on my porch anytimeâ?¦..and by the way, SoCal was a typo I really meant South Carolina.

[Weezard]

Lemme get this disclaimer out of the way.
Notice:
This lizard is not an expert at anything but loafing.
I don't have "the one true way" . I'm just an old fart who has plenty of time to think about things and a budget that mothers my need to cobble together my own lights.

Albacore!?

Betta buy stock in odor sock!
When da U Foe floggers see dis
an start addin' da missing wavelength to warm lights...
We gonna be bazillionaires, brah!

Maybe it would be easier to simply move to South America, that way at least you could become a Brazilionaire.

LOL

This whole home grow thing is taking a lot of time in educating myself in so many aspects and accumulating things that simply arenâ??t available easily. I have assembled a PC board or two in the past. Maybe when the learning curve falls off and I have more time (and the 3 of you are willing) you can guide me through a supplemental panel to add the missing spectrum/s to the ufoâ??s that Iâ??m starting with.

If ya do it right da first time, you only got one missing wavelength.

An you can get Albacore at da grocery store, yah, brah?:D

W.

Adios,
Paniolo Guy

Happy trails podner.
Da 'zard

[DreadedHermie]

IMO, FWIW, messing around with low-power panels, even with an eye to modify them, is gonna lock you into obsolescence. The "infrastructure" of the devices won't support more effective components. You're gonna wind up replacing the entire thing, one system at a time.

Led light only got three parts:
1. leds
2. framework / heatsink / place to mount the leds (generally needs a small fan)
3. driver (power supply + current control or variation of that theme)

Better to get a honkin' big chunka heatsink and attach good leds to it, either with thermal epoxy or paste and screws. I'm thinking 1W leds on stars/MCPCB's minimum. That way, if something better comes out, you wanna add more emitters or extra colors, jes' stick 'em on dere.

And for anyone with heat issues, having the led drivers separate from the lamp itself keeps some heat outta the grow area. That's a considerable advantage to an all-in-one unit like a Procyon or UFO.

The advantage of buying a cheapy UFO is: dem guys buy their parts in quantities of bazzionlots so get the deep discount. Cost us double to build.

So if you can make a pre-built UFO work well for you as it comes outta the box, go for it! We can't build 'em that cheap. But as soon as ya start tryin' to soup 'em up, you're gonna wish you had started with beefy, chunky, 1950's America-style quality! :s4:

I'd hold off on a humidifier. Remember, there is an energy cost to the change of state from liquid to gas. (This is why fat girls feel more comfortable when they sweat.):icon220: Fortunately, You can pay that cost in unwanted heat energy. :D A simple and dangerous way to do this would be to just set a pan of water on a heat sink. (Don't do it that way, though.)

But think about your setup. There's a humidifier lurking there somewhere. Evaporation from the soil and transpiration of the plants is gonna contribute as well. Depending on your rate of air exchange, you may hafta humidify lotsa air for it to make a real difference.

Vented hoods work well. The glass does filter some light; some have removeable glass for use as a simple reflector as well. There are some folks who've done variable ducting so they can divert heated air to cold living areas in winter, or just dump it outside in the summer. Big topic there. Depends on lotsa specifics. And lotsa variables. Importance of proper ventilation / circulation is hard to over-emphasize.

[Horsemanrocks]

Contractors!!!!!!!

The contractor just left. But after a lot of measuring, head scratching, and some language that I canâ??t repeatâ?¦..I think maybe he was Slovakianâ?¦â?¦he informed me that there was room on the porch for three of us OR one Hawaiian. To make the porch big enough for three of us AND one Hawaiian would run about $12,000 plus another 2 grand for plans, permits, and engineering. I of coarse said â??What the hell, letâ??s do itâ?�
He said that he would start in the morning and could probably complete the project by May 2012. I think I got a good deal, I expected it to run $15,000 minimum.
The good news is that I saved $10 on the ufoâ??s.

I started some indica seed from a 1000 plant grow that would have been big local news, but then, they never got caught. The seed has been in a freezer for 25 yearsâ?¦..36 hrs in a paper towel and Viola 100% germ and crackâ?¦.amazing!
So in about 90 days I have to figure out how to use them (ufo's)â?¦..anybody interested in schooling a Newb?

I was just thinking about the spectrum not supplied by the ufo that I bought, itâ??s red is completely 630nm. I imagined that the missing spectrum that the WeeZard mentioned was probably the 660nm red and that could be added with a bulb from HidHut. And no Hermie if I understood you I had no intention of altering the ufoâ??s, I was simply thinking about playing with a totally separate home built panel adding the 660nm andâ?¦â?¦.??? If youâ??re willing to go into more detail about all that blue that youâ??re usingâ?¦â?¦You would find me a willing listener.

Adios,
Paniolo guy.

[DreadedHermie]

Get that porch expanded, homie. Me 'n' the "boys" are headed over!

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[attachment=o218836]

[Horsemanrocks]

Letâ??s see.... 3 plus the WeeZard plus the Village people. I better call that contractor back and renegotiate for an even bigger porch.

I know that the three of you are Led guys. I can tell by sooo many indicators that youâ??re pretty bright guys. (Iâ??ve followed some of your other blogs) Many times pretty bright guys are interested as long as the learning curve is high and interest begins to wane with the whole host of Newb questions arise. I hope that youâ??ll stay with me for a while longer, even though Iâ??m a Newbâ?¦ I would still honor your input.

Hermie, Iâ??ve followed some of your other stuff and itâ??s quite apparent to me that without more time and a concentrated effort that thereâ??s no way in hell that I could â??keep upâ?�â?¦..maybe in the winter. WeeZard you too and Oldmac

Another thing that I learned is that if I ask too many questions at a time, then some get overlooked. So hereâ??s todayâ??s one.
Itâ??s a Scrog DWC. If I imagine a 2 week veg and an 8 week flower how high would I expect the grow to end up (soil to tip). I ask this because I wouldnâ??t imagine it to get too high. If so I could start it higher off the floor to make it easier to work under the screen.

Thanks, Village people!

[headshake]

it all depends on your enviromental factors. lighting, nutes, strain etc, etc. why not grow a plant in your setup and see what it does in those two weeks. keep in mind that it will double to triple in size during flower.


-shake

[DreadedHermie]

keep in mind that it will double to triple in size during flower.



Shake, during the last 2-3 weeks 'Zard and I have been learning how to contol this.

WhiskeyTango noted, early on, that putting his Procyon too close to the plant would make it seem to stop growing.

I've got separate control for red and blue on my homemade light, so I figgered out to slam the plants with blue when you first flip them to 12 / 12. Stopped them in their tracks, stretch-wise. (This is prolly what WT experienced, I'd replicated it with a Procyon after he observed it.)

Thing was, the blue emitters on my homebrew light also made flowers pop like crazy, usually in 5 days. The closer to the emitter, the more pronounced the effect. This'd certainly be helpful if yer trying to determine sex. No big deal to me, jes' got some girlclones so no mystery there.

So, I'm not ready to drop my pants and shoot off rockets over early flower; I'm not sure how that relates to the many other changes the girl's gotta undergo to produce proper meds. But there is definitely a ton of control to be had when you're just manipulating these two spectra.

Weezard then figured out to also reduce red at this point to control.....well, I don't know what he's figured out yet. I'm such a heathen it would never have occurred to me to hit the plants with less than full power at at least one spectrum. But during early flower, individual red and blue control (sometimes not running "full power") lets you really manipulate things like stretch (and rate (and location!) of floral development).

One thing we both seemed to notice (W., correct me if I'm misstating this) was that once you've got enough blue, for whatever developmental stage you're in, additional blue is ignored (sort of). So why waste watts / heat?

Well, I'm rambling a bit here, but I'm comfortable claiming I can hold down stretch to 25% pretty easily. 20" veg plant in, 25" buds out--in that range. At least with this strain, WTF it is. :cool:

[DreadedHermie]

interest begins to wane with the whole host of Newb questions arise. I hope that youâ??ll stay with me for a while

Horseman, we're all noobs at some aspect of this. I can't answer your DWC question very well, because I am just now getting meters and stuff to try it for the first time. Maybe you can help me out when the time comes. I'll try and get back to pick up your earlier questions, there are good ones. :thumbsup: Sometimes the board moves fast, and the real world occupies me sometimes, too. :( Don't mean to ignore ya. :o



how high would I expect the grow to end up
Possibly a better way to approach this question is to ask yourself at what height you would like to finish your plants. You can have a degree of control over this. :thumbsup:

The screen's certainly gonna set the upper limit, unless you're counting horizontal growth along it. Maybe (again) I'm missing something. I mean, your plants will grow as high as the screen, right?....is this a trick question? :stoned:

[headshake]

thanks for the info dreaded. good stuff! i have been following along with you guys but must have missed that info that you just gave me (if it was posted somehwere). i've only been delved into this hobby since last october so i'm a noob still. yes i have come a long way but i still have infinite knowledge to gain.

and this LED talk makes my head hurt sometimes. lol. i do appreciate you guys and all that you do and share. and i do my best to share what i know and what experience that i have gained. one day i hope to be on the cutting edge like you guys. i've got a few ideas up my sleeve. thanks again.

that's exaclty what i was thinking about the screen too. worst case scenario you can make an adjustable one so you won't get stuck on a predetermined height?

horseman, don't let the noob thing stand in your way. there is only one way to not be a noob anymore (although like dreaded said we are all noobs at some aspect of this).

all of you guys rock!


-shake

[DreadedHermie]

Itâ??s beginning to warm up in SoCal and I canâ??t seem to get my grow room over 71 degrees. It draws fresh air from under the house....

Jes' be careful what else (gnat eggs, mold spores, underweight grounghogs, etc.) your intake is pulling into your grow. Filtration may be wise. A closed system may be wiser, if you can manage it.

Iâ??m wondering what the effects would be if the Hid cycled on and off and left the Led,s on throughout the 12 hr cycle. A little heat managementâ?¦..but then who knows, Iâ??ll know more as things get going whether I have a heat problem or not.

Now that's interesting. The most effective application may be counter-intuitive, though.

Kicking yer HID on "mid-day" creates a thermal profile familiar to us: most intense light and heat at mid-day.

But the plants may like to start and end their day with the enhanced red /IR your HID may provide, a radiation wavelength profile that they're familiar with. That'd be interesting to play with, especially from a "martian nights" perspective.



searching for more ????'s....:smokin:

[DreadedHermie]

I like the combination of HPS and LEDs, they should compliment each other well. My first choice would be to combine your 250w HPS with a Procyon 100. I would bolt them close together and mount them on a light rail. This will spread out your light to cover the 5' length easily, plus it spreads the heat of the 250hps around some. Light penertration is so much better since the "angle of attack" of the light to the plant changes constantly, allowing light to hit ares that normally would be shaded with a fixed light. (it's also fun to watch!)

Oldmac's suggestion above is not to be discounted. I wouldn't worry too much about not being able to sweep the entire length of the grow as the good rails have a timer for how long your lights dwell at the end of each pass. A huge advantage to this scheme which I forgot to mention is: less lights = less heat, less $$, less electrical usage.

[DreadedHermie]

I was just thinking about the spectrum not supplied by the ufo that I bought, itâ??s red is completely 630nm.

Don't sweat it. Procyon's use 630's and they work fine for flower (Check the SnS thread). It's starting to look to me as though individual controls for blue and red might make more difference than 630 vs. 660 or 445 vs. 470. (Just a hunch at this point, don't base any designs or large purchases on my :twocents:.)


I imagined that the missing spectrum that the WeeZard mentioned was probably the 660nm red and that could be added with a bulb from HidHut.

I'm getting better results reducing blue than adding red sometimes. The $50 Hidhut bulb seems to spec out at roughly the "oomph" of just two of the reds in a Procyon, (in which there are 40, albeit a different wavelength). You're gonna need quite a few of those bubs to get noticed, I think. Again, :twocents:


And no Hermie if I understood you I had no intention of altering the ufoâ??s, I was simply thinking about playing with a totally separate home built panel adding the 660nm andâ?¦â?¦.???

Sorry, I my :stoned: brain just saw two terms: "panel" and "pc boards." I just pictured some poor schmuck diligently soldering 50,000 5mm leds into an impotent red blanket that's gotta be touching the plants for 'em to even notice it's there. Solder fumes (lead) stay in your body a long time. I try to limit my exposure by using big-ass leds. :D

My original led light design was a "photon enema" of 4. 15W 660's on a long, narrow finned heatsink so I could slide it in where needed. That still makes sense to me. Building a low-power panel doesn't. I think warehouses are gonna be dumping those cheaper than we can build 'em.


If youâ??re willing to go into more detail about all that blue that youâ??re usingâ?¦â?¦You would find me a willing listener.


Not much to tell. Just using 2 Ledengin 15W. blues (with 6 reds; 8 may prove a better ratio for me) on a big heatsink. Would Royal Blues be better? Maybe. The fact that they're on their own driver (as are the reds; they're on 2 separate drivers) lets me effectively change the ratio to whatever I want. That's where the fun starts. :thumbsup:

[Weezard]

"I imagined that the missing spectrum that the WeeZard mentioned was probably the 660nm red and that could be added with a bulb from HidHut."

Thought that you missed that one, P. G.:smokin:

The missing spectrum comment was an extension of Hermie's excellent joke about the "missing spectrum" being ALBACORE TUNA.:D

That's how we gonna get rich, buyin' stock in odor sock.
When folks all start addin' tuna to hot lights
Bazillions I tells ya.:D

Yours in jest.
W.Z.

[Horsemanrocks]

Well that sure is a flurry of inputâ?¦â?¦I canâ??t say how much I appreciate the energy to be thorough. Makes me hungry for some strange reasonâ?¦..think Iâ??ll have me a can oâ?? dat 660nm Albacore. Anybody know the wavelength of cold beer?

It seems like good scientific experiments changing only one variable are so plentiful that the possibility of completing them in a lifetime isnâ??t even imaginableâ?¦â?¦.especially starting so late. The first goal is to gather enough information for a successful first grow. The trick will be to keep the imagination in check.

The screen's certainly gonna set the upper limit, unless you're counting horizontal growth along it. Maybe (again) I'm missing something. I mean, your plants will grow as high as the screen, right?....is this a trick question?
Hermie, I guess that from the blogs that Iâ??ve read and the accompanying pictures, Iâ??d imagined that the veg part of the scrog happened for the large part under the screen and the flower portion happened through and above the screen.
I know that my height request is unanswerable due to so many variables, and that the ultimate height is something to which I can assert control, here Iâ??m just looking for ballparks. My lower back tells me to bring it up off the floor. The ceiling is 7â??6â?� so I can only guess that there will be room to play.

Jes' be careful what else (gnat eggs, mold spores, underweight grounghogs, etc.) your intake is pulling into your grow. Filtration may be wise. A closed system may be wiser, if you can manage it.
The possibility of problems of pulling air from below has occurred to me. Itâ??s been bone dry as long as Iâ??ve been here. I did screen with window screen. I had only planned on opening it as little as necessary. How fine a filter would you think?

Oldmac's suggestion above is not to be discounted. I wouldn't worry too much about not being able to sweep the entire length of the grow as the good rails have a timer for how long your lights dwell at the end of each pass. A huge advantage to this scheme which I forgot to mention is: less lights = less heat, less $$, less electrical usage.
The idea of a mover has been abandonedâ?¦..for nowâ?¦â?¦as I havenâ??t found one to fit the application and ordered three light to accommodate. The energy and heat I hope to manage by my selection of LED-HID-LED. Itâ??s all guesswork for me as I have no experienceâ?¦â?¦.wish me luck!

Bazillions I tells ya.
Letâ??s hope not. In Zimbabwe there are a whole lot of very poor Bazillionaires.

Another topic that has begun to interest me is harvesting and itâ??s timing. My neighbor will soon be getting her patient status and isnâ??t fond of one hit couchlock, and will be seeking custom pharmaceuticals. Iâ??ll definitely be harvesting (itâ??s indica) in increments to try to accommodate individual preferences. Any personal knowledge of harvesting in stages and the results would add to the knowledge base.

WeeZard, Glad youâ??re backâ?¦â?¦.after that totally insensitive crack I made about Hawaiians, I thought that you might have taken it personallyâ?¦â?¦Ya big lug!

Headshakeâ?¦..thanks, Welcome.

Gotta goâ?¦â?¦gotta work on the porchâ?¦â?¦The contractor turned out to be a homophobe and refused to build for the village people. Whodafâ??inthunkit!

Horsemanthinks.

[Weezard]

No worries equestrian of the rocking persuasion.
I is jus' a wee t90, itty, bitty, red spotted, blue footed, green 'Zard.
[attachment=o219028]
Got no offense to take, brah.
No gotta stretch da porch fo' my account.
I jus' as happy chillun on da ceiling.
(Dats where da smoke goes, bro.)

Got too ripped to type fo' a day or three.
Bio assay time ya see.
Dis bud may be to much fo' me.:stoned:

Hadda put da pipe down fo' a minute.

Not complaining mind you.
Wee 'Zard.

[Horsemanrocks]

Iâ??m wondering what the effects would be if the Hid cycled on and off and left the Led,s on throughout the 12 hr cycle. A little heat managementâ?¦..but then who knows, Iâ??ll know more as things get going whether I have a heat problem or not.

Now that's interesting. The most effective application may be counter-intuitive, though.

Kicking yer HID on "mid-day" creates a thermal profile familiar to us: most intense light and heat at mid-day.

But the plants may like to start and end their day with the enhanced red /IR your HID may provide, a radiation wavelength profile that they're familiar with. That'd be interesting to play with, especially from a "martian nights" perspective.

Letâ??s imagine an ebb & flowâ?¦â?¦The nutes arenâ??t there all the time. Leyâ??s say that the plant is fed three times a day, takes what it needs.....and survives quite nicely until next feeding comes around. Possibly the same could be true for lighting. The 12/12 cycle isnâ??t broken because the Ledâ??s are still active(possibly a ½ full can of albacore tipping the ufo a little to the inside) Maybe the sun just went behind a treeâ?¦â?¦I dunno, possibly the portion supplied by the Hid wouldnâ??t be missed for short periodsâ?¦.stored, and then replaced when available.

Weezard then figured out to also reduce red at this point to control.....well, I don't know what he's figured out yet. I'm such a heathen it would never have occurred to me to hit the plants with less than full power at at least one spectrum. But during early flower, individual red and blue control (sometimes not running "full power") lets you really manipulate things like stretch (and rate (and location!) of floral development).
You and WeeZard are diddling with lighting combinations all the timeâ?¦..the possibilities are staggering.
Maybe useful for heat managementâ?¦â?¦..and then maybe the missing linkâ?¦..and then weâ??ll all be bazillionaires togetherâ?¦â?¦.I could live with retiring on the big island.
In any case, itâ??s only a thoughtâ?¦.if I can keep my imagination in check I might ultimately have some success.

So much for today,
Horsemanrests

[Horsemanrocks]

If nobody responds to this postâ?¦â?¦no worriesâ?¦â?¦.Iâ??ll just call Vegas, they know the spreads on everything!

While shopping for the â??perfectâ?� hood for the HID, it occurred to me that I have no idea how to set the height (light spread) for the ufoâ??sâ?¦..any clues out there?

As always,
Horsemanwonders

[Weezard]

If nobody responds to this postâ?¦â?¦no worriesâ?¦â?¦.Iâ??ll just call Vegas, they know the spreads on everything!

While shopping for the â??perfectâ?� hood for the HID, it occurred to me that I have no idea how to set the height (light spread) for the ufoâ??sâ?¦..any clues out there?

As always,
Horsemanwonders

It'll be obvious if you turn off the HID.

I plan to do a lux reading vs. height on my knock-off tomorrow.
An da wife wants to know if she can hang out on your porch too.
One beer will last her all night;
[attachment=o219291]

Aloha,
Weeze

[oldmac]

Thought I'd find you all hangin' out at Horsemans' porch. Looks like it has just enough shade to make it restfull. BTW, shade is the most overlooked, cheap to do energy saver there is!
My house mate and I did a little traveling and spent a few days paying retribution to some indian tribes. Well I paid the compensation, he's an indian and never seems to loose in an indian casino...go figure.

Horseman-

I need to impart this bit of wisdom to you. Whether building LED lights from scratch or putting together lighting from off the shelf stuff, don't underestimate the power of "luck". It is far better to be lucky then good in boff lights and life. The very best performing light I own was the result of a experiment gone bad. It cost me money (bunch of useless diodes) and rework time (don't ever mount LEDs using heat sink epoxy!) but pushed me into a hybred I never intended to build that has worked better then dreamed of and I've not been able to equal.

Weez', very nice Mrs there. You 'zards are cute as buttons!

Hey Hermie, that's a very nice picture, I see you're doing youir own hair now.

And Headshake, I saw you say all that LED reading was making your head hurt...it's suppose too. Keeps all them others "in the dark" saying LEDs don't work.

[oldmac]

I jus' as happy chillun on da ceiling.


Hey!!!!!!!!! What's that wet stuff on my head???

You better not be weezin' on my head and tellin' me it's raining out!

[DreadedHermie]

Hey Hermie, that's a very nice picture, I see you're doing your own hair now.

I've opened my own combination hair salon and hernia rehab clinic!! I call it "Turn Your Head and Coif!"
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[attachment=o219311]
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.I was thinking....maybe we could update your look a little, too, Mac? Something with a little patriotic flair should get you some extra attention with the tribes! :thumbsup:
[attachment=o219310]


Come on in Mac, you don't need an appointment. We're ready to "curl up and dye" for you!!

[oldmac]

Yo' DH,

Two puns like that in the same post, well.......

it's why there's no room in hell. or heaven?

[Horsemanrocks]

I'm not sure....is it chains, the hair....something irresistable about that...just can't seem to put my finger on it.

You'll never believe it but a coupla ufo's landed here today....from China. Yeah, I have been drinkin', but that doesn't make it less true.

Good humor today, thanks......

as always,
Horsemanlaughs.

[Horsemanrocks]

I plan to do a lux reading vs. height on my knock-off tomorrow.
An da wife wants to know if she can hang out on your porch too.
One beer will last her all night;

I donâ??t know WeeZardâ?¦â?¦you, and the wifeâ?¦â?¦Ok, Iâ??ll call the contractor back and see what itâ??ll costâ?¦..Iâ??ll let yaâ?? know. I will be able to spring for the beer though.

Itâ??s quite an adventure gathering all the eclectic stuff to put together a grow room. I went to the big city to spend moneyâ?¦..it turned out that their catalog was bigger than their mouth was.
Stillâ?¦Iâ??ve always been a builder and the process is quite a lot of fun when you can finally gather the materials to work with.

Can you elaborate on light readingâ?¦.are they relative, or are there absolute values. What sort of tools, and on, and on, and on.

Hasta el proximo vez,
Horsemanrocks

[DreadedHermie]

Who loosened you guys up?

I've taken delivery of a "shipment" of high-grade psyllium. :toilet_claw:

I feel light as a feather!




Jes' be careful what else (gnat eggs, mold spores, underweight grounghogs, etc.) your intake is pulling into your grow. Filtration may be wise. A closed system may be wiser, if you can manage it.
The possibility of problems of pulling air from below has occurred to me. Itâ??s been bone dry as long as Iâ??ve been here. I did screen with window screen. I had only planned on opening it as little as necessary. How fine a filter would you think?


You'll probably want to upgrade from window screen. The old hippy trick was using sections of panty hose stretched over intake ducts.
(Oldmac usta give us his throwaways. :D) Course, the tighter you stretch it, the bigger your mesh gets. (Think Mac was trying to get back into a size 4.)

If I were drawing outside air in, I'd talk to a local A/C company, or the Cooperative Extension Service and see what's in your local air that they'd recommend filtering out. Choose a filter accordingly. They're often rated at micron size.

Mold spores, pollen, etc, are pretty dang small. And finer your filter, the more resistance to airflow (at a given price point). So you need to increase the surface area of the intake to accommodate finer filtration.

A 20 x 24" register, with a household (hepa, maybe?) A/C filter might work for you. I saw some monstrous things at Lowe's, I think, that accommodated a big replaceable filter, and tapered down to connect to a 6" duct. Don't remember what they called it, sorry...:stoned:

Mississippi Steve on this board knows lots about ductsandstuff. Mebbe he can help. I abandoned the idea after calculating how hot and humid the incoming air would be compared to the air I'd be exhausting. I'll keep what I got, thanks...;)


Jes' be careful what else (gnat eggs, mold spores, underweight grounghogs, etc.) your intake is pulling into your grow.

Stay safe. You really don't wanna pull one of these suckers in...:eek: Now he says he wants to hang out on yer porch, too. Brought his own chair. Refuses to produce a vaccination record. Says he's a "fox squirrel." I'm skeptical. :wtf:

[attachment=o219526]

[Horsemanrocks]

Thanks Hermie,

A 20 x 24" register, with a household (hepa, maybe?) A/C filter might work for you. I saw some monstrous things at Lowe's, I think, that accommodated a big replaceable filter, and tapered down to connect to a 6" duct. Don't remember what they called it, sorry...

I can envision an A/C on a bias (lots of area....minimal restriction) that could work for me. Unless fatmac has more panty hose....on second thought I'd better stick with the A/C filter.

From time to time it's ok to say no. Tell the "fox squirrel" he's out....what with "da wife" and all.

Horsemantinkers

[Weezard]

Met dat wingless Fruit-Bat buggah.
He tol' me dat "before all da hair fell outta his tail, he used to be a cute little squoil"

Yah, right! den he ate my nephew, Dwight.
No invite dat buggah, he got no manners.

Weeze

[oldmac]

Wow, talk about friends.

I told you Hermie not to tell were you got those pantyhose.
BTW Horseman, I ain't fat, but if you need some pantyhose let me know.

Hey Weez, I'm getting ready to start a new batch. I'm going to turn off the enhanced "vitamin B" bulbs for this one, should I talk about this in public or keep it between us (and maybe a FEW select others)?

[Weezard]

"Hey Weez, I'm getting ready to start a new batch. I'm going to turn off the enhanced "vitamin B" bulbs for this one, should I talk about this in public or keep it between us (and maybe a FEW select others)? "

Aloha O. M.

It's a valid experiment so public is advised.

The more good information we share, the betta fo' everybody, yah?:joint1:


Share the love.:)

Weeze

[oldmac]

Yo' Weez, bra,

It will be a very valid experiment, only thing I can't do pictures of my personal grow area at all. I'd love to, cause I think you'd get a kick out of the octo-hybred mkII; 420 watts of red Cree's and 320 watts of 2' full spectrum T5 VHO, 740 watts total, not counting power supplies (kicks ass like a 1000 watt HPS or maybe better). BTW, all of it is crammed into a 6" diameter glass tube, so even if the full spectrums put out any UVb, it porbably would not make it thru the boroscilicate glass anyway. In the other partnered grow that you've seen some pictures from, I can not get rid of all UVb, since the TI pro-blooms have some built in it, and I'd hate to stop using it with the HPS since we are trying to "pump up the volume" in quanitity and quality. Plus there is just too much shit happening in that bloom room, like trying to keep temps under control with 2- 1kw hps lights cooking away and another 1000w in hybred light.

BTW the no pics is a religous thing with my housemate, "Tonto". He claims the grow area is "sacred ground" even tho I have pointed out we are growing in a reinforced concrete bunker (old fall-out shelter) using "f"ing rockwool and there is not one once of dirt anywhere, let alone ground. He responce is always the same "sacred ground".

Plus, it is going to be 7 1/2 to 8 1/2 weeks of pretty much watching the grass grow. Guess we'll need a porch to hijack I mean hang out on.

Hey Horsemanrocks...wanna watch some grass grow from your porch?
I'm doing this 'cause you Weezard are the first to put any type of doubt into my mind about its' usefullness, and of course scientific curiosity.

[crabbyback]

I'll try not to dilute the testosterone too much. :rolleyes:

Horseman, I've been watching this thread with interest. Do I understand that you have given up the .5mm China panels in favor of UFO type lights?

Am I correct that your new light config. is 2 UFOs + one 250 HPS? Might I ask which generation of UFO are you using?

This is very close to one of the configurations that I am running (Procyons, small HPSs, and T5s) so I'll be watching your progress.

carry on fellas ...

[Weezard]

Aloha O.M.

I understand the "sacred ground" concept.:)
All my indoor weed photos are at least 6 months old.
The landlord at my growroom insists on no current snaps.
I'm not thrilled, about that but, his house, his rules.

"I'm doing this 'cause you Weezard are the first to put any type of doubt into my mind about its' usefullness, and of course scientific curiosity.":thumbsup:

If, as I surmise, the UVb=THC idea is a stoner myth. I have done you a service, yah?
If your tests add credence, we have done a big favor for all growers.
Sounds worthwhile to me, brah.:cool:

Mahalo nui,
Empirical Weeze

[DreadedHermie]

can I join this party?

Awright, awright....

Just hold it down!

Tryin' to get some sleep here....
[attachment=o219634]

Found a spare bedroom for a little nap. Hope Horseman doesn't mind my "extended family." Bathroom's down the hall.

CB, thanks for the rep. I discovered the next day I also got into the Vienna sausages (which were in the trunk of my car :wtf:) and sun-dried tomatoes. Kinda forgot about that part. :stoned: Lucky it was just "indoor" weed. I mighta really got stoned or sumthin'! :rastasmoke:

[Horsemanrocks]

The porch is gettinâ?? kinda fullâ?¦.the Village people are definitely out!

I feel so â??commonâ?� somehow

A Sunday, and a little time brings it out somehow.
Welcome crabbybackâ?¦.I wonâ??t ignore you, this is what I bought

Voltage: 110/220v
Output power: 90w
Measurement: 204*204*H60mm
LED Configuration - 90 x 1 Watt LED, 80 Red + 10 Blue
WaveLength - Red=630nm, Blue=460nm
Cover material: flame retardant PC
Color temperature: 3500-6500K

but the Laker game went into overtime. Yeah, maybe I had a drinkâ?¦.orâ?¦â?¦? And itâ??s late.

Spent the weekend buildinâ?? stuff. Feel a bit like Oldmac in that Iâ??m just biding time until the youngunâ??s come along. But the learning curve is highâ?¦.so itâ??s a lot of funâ?¦andâ?¦andâ?¦.andâ?¦Iâ??m in the company of greatness, so how much better can it get?

Hermieâ?¦.I saw your .jpegâ?¦..thatâ??s gotta be Oldmac in the hoseâ?¦.he sayâ??s heâ??s not â??heavyâ?�â?¦â?¦.ok, Iâ??ll play along.

Too hipâ?¦gotta go.
Horsemanrocks.

[oldmac]

I'll try not to dilute the testosterone too much. :rolleyes:

Hey crabbyback,

I actually think we need to dilute the testosterone around these boards sometimes. I'm sure you've seen some of the exchanges on some threads that border on being a verbal street fight. Passions can run very high for some (me included). I'm often amazed some days when I see what I wrote the night before, I can be a cranky old son of a bitch. But as I like to point out...it's one of the few things I'm still good at.

Yo' Horesman,

I did warn you what would happen if we started dropping by, you'd have a crowd on da porch for sure. BTW that's not me in Hermies' pic, not sure who it is, probably one of his close "friends".....not that there's anything wrong with that.

Hello fellow porch dwellers,

Last night I harvested by bloom room, bleached and steam cleaned everything, and put 144 plantlets in the machine to bloom. All in one night and I'm tired today from it, but thought that since it was a full moon I should get them started on 12/12. Since they ain't getting the vitamin B (UVb) thought the full moon start might help them. (I typed that with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek) And it was a "red letter day" in the farmer's almanac besides.

[crabbyback]

I've been told that I have plenty of testosterone for someone of my gender.

First, horseman, thanks for opening your porch to all comers. I'm usually pretty quiet, unless I get fired up. My other advise, you might want to lay off of the poker chips :eat: as I imagine they cause trouble later. :eek:

Second, oldmac. I've been wanting to tell you for a while, sir, YOU ROCK! Its all I can do to keep up with my little grow. On nights when everything needs attention, it truly kicks my ass. And you are running two grows? :hangs head in abject failure:

Actually, I try not to post much because I'm an opinionated, class A, bitch with no patience for those who won't read what is right under their nose. But, when cancom went belly up around the first of the year, I lost most of my initial 50 posts. I believe this post might be number 50.

Looking forward to reading Weezard's amusing prose and hearing all the pearls of wisdom you fellas drop.

[oldmac]

Hi crabbyback,
Thanks for the compliment but I feel like I'm dragging a bag of rocks around today. Spent 4 hrs working w/ partner last night planting cuttings and then starting new cuts, etc. After 6 hrs on Sunday night turning around my bloom room I am plum tuckered out. BTW; the only reason I'm involved with the partnered grow is I'm hoping to pass the torch on, as it where to someone else to carry on growing for people in need. The real shame is we where going to build a state of the art set-up, something I always wanted to do, but money problems arose when the contents of my greenhouse was stolen last fall. So now we have a half-assed program going untill things get better. I do need to slow down some very soon, it is taking a toll on me physically and mentally. I actually get some enjoyment from being here, just don't have enough time. Oh well it is what it is. Nice porch Horseman has here, just watch out for the 'zard on the ceiling.....

[Weezard]

"Nice porch Horseman has here, just watch out for the 'zard on the ceiling..... "

Humph! Well I never...!
(Odder hand, ya owed me one fo' da "ol' fart" crack.)

How-some-ever, I will have you know that we is not merely yer common, garden variety, 'zards.

We be Mo'os!

And, as such, have taken an oath.
We are sworn to remain continent while overhead.
And to always look up to our elders.:thumbsup:

[attachment=o219789]

Only can hang out onna ceiling during trimming season anyway. (Think about it):D

You still worried 'bout spilled beer?
Relax brah, dat's alcohol abuse, so no gonna happen.

Still, I sometimes "cry fo' happy", so,
Wear a hat.:D

Aloha.
Weeze n 'em

[Horsemanrocks]

This will be a no-brainerâ?¦.should be easy for the present company.
Iâ??m going without R/O filter as the water analysis is 117ppm. I picked up CalMag as a small supplement. Any advise, comments, direction will be taken as gospelâ?¦.preach on!

Anybody besides me notice that Bigmac has twice vehemently denied being â??largeâ?�â?¦.just a thought.

Iâ??m a little reluctant to post under the WeeZe â?¦.got no hat.

As always,
Horsemanrocks.

[oldmac]

Yeah Horseman,

Well water is fine, and under 150ppm is excellent quaility usually.(As long as it is not run thru a "sofener" system) Consider you probably have some trace minerals already there, and typical wells tend to have some calcium already; but cal/mag is good to use anyway. The only time I don't recomend the use of cal/mag, even with RO water, is if you use Pro-Mix and containers. Pro-Mix contains dolomite lime, whichs gives up calcium and magnesium, so it is already in the mix. (reason glass-house operators use it)

Not sure you should take anything as gospel, even the gospels'.

BTW: when I was younger I was "large", now I'm just flacid.

[oldmac]

Darn my feeble brain....almost totally forgot,

Important that you adjust your ph for your set up style and nutrient package you use.

Ahhh, you probably knew that already. Gotta' stop preachin'.

[Horsemanrocks]

The meter just arrived. The local water is ph 7.2 from the tap and 7.1 after a pass thru the household carbon filter. I donâ??t think Iâ??ll even bother to filter it as the baddies seem to be minimalâ?¦..and (no softener involved.) Iâ??ll gradually reduce ph starting in the morning. My nutrient plan will be â??Latewoodâ??s Legacyâ?� http://boards.cannabis.com/hydroponics/93676-latewoods-legacy-gh-3-part-calmag-tutorial-discussion.html
I know that Iâ??ll turn out to be a total pest waitingâ?¦.waitingâ?¦..waiting. Iâ??m sure itâ??ll turn out to be a good thing in the end with more time to study.

Your comments on an idea that Iâ??ve been tossing around, if you will.
Sprout seedsâ?¦grow emâ??â?¦.clone emâ??â?¦.sex emâ??â?¦..grow emâ??â?¦.flower emâ??. Thatâ??s way too much time for an active imagination. I have an ideaâ?¦..whoda thunk it.
(The buckets have 6â?� net pots)â?¦..start with clones and instead of vegging in the flower room, pre-veg in 3 or 4â?� net pots and them simply place the smaller pot into the 6â?� pot at flower time. Fill in the spaces with Hydroton and Shazamâ?¦.off and running.
The pre-veg could be ebb & flow or simpler yet just a bubblerâ?¦the hardest part might be coming up with the right tray/s. The smaller net pots for pre-veg would fit into available space nicely. Could cut a couple weeks off of turnaround time.


As youâ??re all painfully awareâ?¦I have no experienceâ?¦..So lay it on me, whatâ??s the fly in the ointment.

traditionally,
Horsemanwaits.

[Weezard]

Fly!? Did someone say fly?! Where!
<Tapdancing onna table and licking his perty blue eyes>

I be liking dat double net gum idea!:thumbsup:

Weezard

[oldmac]

I agree with The Weezard on this.

Well the part about "dat double net gum idea".........

.....not that crazy about the fly.

One more thought about your water. If it is a community well or municipal delivered well water you should keep using the charcoal filter (and keep it updated) to remove any chlorine that may be in it.

[McDanger]

The meter just arrived. The local water is ph 7.2 from the tap and 7.1 after a pass thru the household carbon filter. I donâ??t think Iâ??ll even bother to filter it as the baddies seem to be minimalâ?¦..and (no softener involved.) Iâ??ll gradually reduce ph starting in the morning. My nutrient plan will be â??Latewoodâ??s Legacyâ?� http://boards.cannabis.com/hydroponics/93676-latewoods-legacy-gh-3-part-calmag-tutorial-discussion.html
I know that Iâ??ll turn out to be a total pest waitingâ?¦.waitingâ?¦..waiting. Iâ??m sure itâ??ll turn out to be a good thing in the end with more time to study.

Your comments on an idea that Iâ??ve been tossing around, if you will.
Sprout seedsâ?¦grow emâ??â?¦.clone emâ??â?¦.sex emâ??â?¦..grow emâ??â?¦.flower emâ??. Thatâ??s way too much time for an active imagination. I have an ideaâ?¦..whoda thunk it.
(The buckets have 6â?� net pots)â?¦..start with clones and instead of vegging in the flower room, pre-veg in 3 or 4â?� net pots and them simply place the smaller pot into the 6â?� pot at flower time. Fill in the spaces with Hydroton and Shazamâ?¦.off and running.
The pre-veg could be ebb & flow or simpler yet just a bubblerâ?¦the hardest part might be coming up with the right tray/s. The smaller net pots for pre-veg would fit into available space nicely. Could cut a couple weeks off of turnaround time.


As youâ??re all painfully awareâ?¦I have no experienceâ?¦..So lay it on me, whatâ??s the fly in the ointment.

traditionally,
Horsemanwaits.
The thought I have is: aren't your roots going to be grown thru the small netpots? wouldn't they be bunched up when you move to the bigger netpots? Please correct me if I am wrong:thumbsup:

[DreadedHermie]

I was wondering that, too. I'm still a little foggy on how to get a good-sized plant going in a 5 gal. bubble bucket without starting it there in a 5-6" net pot (and wasting space with a small plant in a big bucket until she grows into her house).

I guess if the small net pot has been nested in a small nursery pot, when you transfer to the larger DWC netpot the roots would be contained and you could just let them grow out through the larger netpot as well. (I was originally envisioning trying to "thread" live roots through the holes in a new, larger netpot...:wtf:)

I'm wondering about pre-cutting / scoring the small netpot so it's a "break-away" operation when you move into the big buckets. Seems like growing through 2 netpots might cause problems, if only from the constraints imposed by the smaller netpot. Or am I not following the procedure correctly?

[Horsemanrocks]

Mc Danger & Hermie,

You hit the nail on the head as to my initial concern. The thing that makes me think that itâ??s possible is that I watch cloning videos on YouTube. The clone comes out of a cloner with 12-18â?� roots. They take the clone and wind the root around in a circle into a tiny little 3 to 4â?� pot. Their nurseries are hugeâ?¦.so theyâ??ve been successful a lot. Iâ??m just wondering if the plant cares as much as itâ??s hard on our eyes.
I set up my buckets with liquid level indicators with hopes that Iâ??ll be able to adjust the liquid quite precisely (that remains to be seen) I will know exactly the height of the bottom of the net pot. My least concern is the roots finding their way through both pots. Theyâ??ll already be thru the first pot and just as a clone would have to doâ?¦.find itâ??s way through the second one.

I was wondering that, too. I'm still a little foggy on how to get a good-sized plant going in a 5 gal. bubble bucket without starting it there in a 5-6" net pot (and wasting space with a small plant in a big bucket until she grows into her house).
Well, isnâ??t it initially started in a 1â?? oasis cube? It likely wouldnâ??t eliminate the veg completelyâ?¦.but maybe a running start wouldnâ??t hurt

I'm wondering about pre-cutting / scoring the small netpot so it's a "break-away" operation when you move into the big buckets. Seems like growing through 2 netpots might cause problems, if only from the constraints imposed by the smaller netpot. Or am I not following the procedure correctly?
Wont the roots simply be growing down, itâ??s not soil. I actually imagined the smaller pot inside surrounded by Hydroton then again surrounded by the 6â?� pot to be adding a little structure to the whole affair. I'll be scrog-ing so a little bending and levering around is going to happen.

I add this to get your thoughtsâ?¦.please criticize away.

Laker game starts in a few minutes,

Iâ??ll be bock

Horseratorrocks.

[Horsemanrocks]

Another YouTube video. In the Jorge Cervantes Ultimate grow series (if I remember correctly) He takes out the scissors and trims the roots. I wont look for it tonight, but if you remind me Iâ??ll try to track down exactly which video.

Horsemanrocks��.but in the first half, the Lakers suck!

[oldmac]

You can trim roots, just like you trim the upper part of a plant.
But do not ripped them, crush them or mutilate them; with damage comes rot.
Just cut them with a sharp knife or scissors, and don't try to cut more then a 1/3 of the root mass off. Won't hurt the plant at all, some strains it won't even slow them down some strains will need a couple of days to recover and start growing again.

When your roots grow, you'll see two types, long large roots that tend to grow straight down, these are tap roots and look for water. The smaller hairier roots are the air roots, that fan out closer to the surface looking for oxygen and probably co2 also. (some debate about the roots using co2, some science to support it).

Dutch Masters makes a product called Zone, acts as a bio-fungicide and general healthy root promoter. Works well in recirc systems.

[Horsemanrocks]

As â??my roomâ?� nears completion, and the little oneâ??s having such a long way to goâ?¦.Iâ??ll need a project. It looks like the pre-veg tray is gonna fly. It wonâ??t even be necessary the first time around as I wonâ??t even have clones in waiting. I suppose that if worse comes to worseâ?¦..and I become impatientâ?¦..which has happened in the past, I could go out and buy some clones.
I found some slab trays that fit my spaceâ?¦.and lids pre-cutout for the small net pots. (The tray is approx 40x8x4)
1st question: Any opinions as to just make it a bubble tray or is ebb & flow a better idea.
Q2: All my time has been spent with researching DWC and I havenâ??t spent any time really with ebb & flow. I havenâ??t a clue as to how to size the pump. (pimping is allowed between consenting adults).
Getting me started on this sites policies about pimping (let us take a little responsibility for our own actions) and personal messages (let us take a little responsibility for our own actions) is exactly WRONG! Subject droppedâ?¦.life is supposed to be more fun than that. Anybody notice a little P.T.S.D. showing through. Guess I better not skip the next â??anger managementâ?�.

(some debate about the roots using co2, some science to support it).
Oldmacâ?¦..Iâ??ve actually thought about that in the past. I havenâ??t yet even seen the subject approached. If you know of any linksâ?¦.Iâ??d be interested.

I probably wasnâ??t as thorough in a previous post as I could have been. I imagine that Iâ??ll be able to set liquid height in my buckets very precisely. If somehow the float valve isnâ??t exactly as responsive as I want it to be, Iâ??ll shim the controller until I get what I want. And the Lord knows that Iâ??ll have plenty of time to practice.
Anybody interested in schooling me as to liquid level in relationship to bottom of netpot or oasis cube (initially, and then as the roots grow). Iâ??d be obliged.

A little treat for the WeeZard (below)
Don't eat it all at once....you'll get a bellyache!

as expected,
Horsemanrocks.........how bout them Lakers!

[Weezard]

"Anybody interested in schooling me as to liquid level in relationship to bottom of netpot or oasis cube (initially, and then as the roots grow). Iâ??d be obliged."

No obligation, brah.
It's paid ahead.:eat:

The actual level is not as critical as one would think.:jointsmile:

Anything from 1 inch to 6 inches will do.
It's all about good aeration.
Good aeration means lotsa bubbles and the popping bubbles will splash surprisingly high.
You will see tiny water beads on the roots 10 inches from the water surface.
A bamboo skewer poked through a hole in the lid and stuck into a cork makes a dandy, bubba kine, level monitor.:rastasmoke:

Aloha,
Weeze

[Horsemanrocks]

Iâ??ve followed a lot of Bucket tutorials and a recurring problem for many is roots clogging drain lines. I havenâ??t come up with any foolproof ideasâ?¦..yet. So far the best that I can come up with is a layer before the ebb & flow filter. Brass screen is available. Any ideas on the use of brass and the compatibility with the all the nutrient chemistry going on.
Would aquarium silicone be the appropriate glue?

May your buckets always drain,
Horsemanrocks.

[Weezard]

Sorry, bro. :o
Ah dunno, 'bout ebb an' flow.

Thought you were doing DWC.:stoned:

Nevermind,

Weeze

[Horsemanrocks]

Sorry WeeZard I was referring to the Bulkhead fitting (drain) at the bottom of the bucketâ?¦.often sold simply as an ebb & flow fitting. Even with the e&f filters some folk complain about roots growing all the way back to the controller, plugging up the drain and overflowing the bucket. Thought that I might get in a second line of defense with an additional screen. Iâ??ve certainly got plenty of time to let the â??glueâ?� dry. Just wondering if brass could get along with the nute chemistry.

Thanks,
Horsemanrocks.

[Weezard]

Sorry WeeZard I was referring to the Bulkhead fitting (drain) at the bottom of the bucketâ?¦.often sold simply as an ebb & flow fitting. Even with the e&f filters some folk complain about roots growing all the way back to the controller, plugging up the drain and overflowing the bucket. Thought that I might get in a second line of defense with an additional screen. Iâ??ve certainly got plenty of time to let the â??glueâ?� dry. Just wondering if brass could get along with the nute chemistry.

Thanks,
Horsemanrocks.

I fooled with E&F, (well, more of a flow n flow, actually) for a while, but used a submerged pump and I'd wrap the pump in the toe of a nylon stocking, set the flow to "just barely", and let it drip all day. It worked, but was noisy and the roots do eventually, foul the pump.
Found out that I didn't need the flow at all and the bubble splash lured the roots into the roiling water where they flourished.
That wide leafed lady in my album grew in one of those bubba-buckets. Got too big, too fast.
[attachment=o220402]
Got one in a bucket now that's getting out of hand.

<sigh> it's always somthin'.
Weeze

[Horsemanrocks]

I called a tech at GH to ask about any reaction between brass and their nute chemistry. She told me that they use steel screens for the same purpose. So I suppose next time I canâ??t find the plastic fitting that I need, there are increased options.
Weezâ?¦if you work any other sites with personal messaging, I would love to know. I gotsme uh idear. Must respect the rulesâ?¦.must respect the rulesâ?¦.must respect the rules.

Iâ??ve â??worn a lot of hatsâ?� in life, all of them building (creating) something. This grow room project is so much fun I can hardly believe it. I see a lot of posts from people only interested in the end result and missing out on the journey. I suppose thatâ??s what being an old guy is all about, but Iâ??m most definitely enjoying the ride. Iâ??d post pictures, but pictures of empty netpots donâ??t cut the mustard in this company. Itâ??ll be a while yet until thereâ??s something inumâ??.

Sorry for gettingâ?? off subject Ms Stinkyâ?¦â?¦.please, please, please donâ??t delete me.

As always,
Horsemanwaits

[Weezard]

I called a tech at GH to ask about any reaction between brass and their nute chemistry. She told me that they use steel screens for the same purpose. So I suppose next time I canâ??t find the plastic fitting that I need, there are increased options.
Weezâ?¦if you work any other sites with personal messaging, I would love to know.

ICMag.
Or, google me. :D

I gotsme uh idear. Must respect the rulesâ?¦.must respect the rulesâ?¦.must respect the rules.


Iâ??ve â??worn a lot of hatsâ?� in life, all of them building (creating) something. This grow room project is so much fun I can hardly believe it. I see a lot of posts from people only interested in the end result and missing out on the journey. I suppose thatâ??s what being an old guy is all about, but Iâ??m most definitely enjoying the ride. Iâ??d post pictures, but pictures of empty netpots donâ??t cut the mustard in this company. Itâ??ll be a while yet until thereâ??s something inumâ??.

Sorry for gettingâ?? off subject Ms Stinkyâ?¦â?¦.please, please, please donâ??t delete me.

As always,
Horsemanwaits

Oh, a waiter! nyuk X3.:D

Ms. Stinky no gonna harsh yer mellow, brah.
She's a very cool head.

I'll see ya on da udder side.
Where martinets dey no abide.


Weezard who waits not a lot.:jointsmile:

[oldmac]

Hello again Horsemanrocks,

I have a metric shit load of scientific papers dealing mostly with C3 plants in general, some hemp related and just a couple for mj. Unforgently they where collected 3-4 years ago when I was on a horticultural kick and are stuck in my old computer. I just spoke with my oldest grandaughter who's home from college for the summer and she has agreed to try and help me retrieve them, somehow. (she's the only one in the family I can trust)

The science I referred to was from Rutgers U, where they isolated the tops and roots, then did various CO2 experiments. The short story is they found when CO2 was just introduced to the roots, leaves started to give off oxygen and some growth was noted. Very little growth but some. I don't think it is too far fetched to think roots can use co2, but does it add anything worthwhile for increased growth, I'm not sure.

And if I can retrieve some of my collected scientific papers, you'll all be sorry....
probably throw me off the porch for stinkin' the place up with academia fertilizer.

[Weezard]

Fascinating!:thumbsup:

Been feeding in CO2 through a 1/4" hose right at da base of da DWC bush.
Wouldn't be a chore to pop a nice, clean, airstone on 'er and den, it's just a drop in da bucket, yah?
I'll have to try dat on a jug of nuted water to see what it does to da PH over time.
I think carbonic acid is relatively weak and I usually keep 5.2 - 6.2 anyway.
I figure most will bubble right through and be avalable to the foilage 'cause I run enough air through my buckets to approach the gas absorbtion capacity of the water.
What does dissolve should be rapidly displaced, and some will hopefully, be used by the roots.

Mahalo, Mac.
This is my "kine sing"!
Another "half-baked", no-budget, adventure!:jumphappy:

I owe ya one, bro.
Hope you no gonna stink da joint up wit' math though.:D

"I'm oft' to be da lizard,
A thunderfilled lizard at odds"

Weeze

[Horsemanrocks]

Mac, always good to hear from you. I appreciate you going out of your way to school a country boy. You managed to lose me immediately with C3 plants. I Gaggled C3 and I donâ??t know anything now that I didnâ??t know when I started. We need to get something straight before we beginâ?¦..If you expect that this means that Iâ??m gonna take back all the names that Iâ??ve called youâ?¦â?¦â?¦.???

While I hadnâ??t planned to CO2 as a Newb, although the time spread for me will be enough that a little â??discressionary spendâ?� may just come my way between now and then. My buckets will be empty enough to toss in another airstone if the conditions warrant. I suppose that the CO2 could only improve the overall environment. As they say â??nothing venturedâ?¦..never a brazillionaireâ?�

And if I can retrieve some of my collected scientific papers, you'll all be sorry....
probably throw me off the porch for stinkin' the place up with academia fertilizer.

I have a fix for thatâ?¦.highlight textâ?¦.right click, scroll down, select deleteâ?¦..left clickâ?¦.all done.

Señor Weeze

I'll have to try dat on a jug of nuted water to see what it does to da PH over time.
If you get a result on thatâ?¦.post it, por favor.

I signed up at ICMagâ?¦.need 50 posts to gain PM privilege. Been following a couple of threads over there. one that Iâ??ve been meaning to add to in particular Blazeoneupâ??s recirc DWC tutorial (about 26 pages)â?¦.Iâ??ll try to add to that this coming week sometime. Also watching BigTokes bio-buckets, (only about 51 pages) Itâ??s interesting how his command of language improves when he getâ??s into the thecnical stuffâ?¦..wonder who writes it for him. Hahahahaâ?¦.sometimes learning comes from unexpected sources!


I figure most will bubble right through and be avalable to the foilage 'cause I run enough air through my buckets to approach the gas absorbtion capacity of the water.
I did run my airstones (6â?�) a littleâ?¦.they looked a little less than I expected. The pumps are rated at 1.4 psi (seems a little weenie to me)â?¦..I have already considered a hard line back to the big compressor in the shop and regulators arenâ??t expensive. (my eye says that somewhere between 3-4 psi would be an improvement) Any expansion on the idea of absorption capacity will help with the decision. (canâ??t imagine that a 5gal bucket with a 6â?� netpot could hold any more than 3-3 ½ gal) I did decide on recirculating DWC with the idea of double redundancy. ( I didnâ??t select a huge pumpâ?¦.didnâ??t see why) That saidâ?¦.learning more about the subject would be â??cool dudeâ?�!

Hope you no gonna stink da joint up wit' math though.
Yeah, easy on the math!


"I'm oft' to be da lizard,
A thunderfilled lizard at odds"
As hard as this is for me to sayâ?¦â?¦some people just shouldnâ??t sing!

Hahalalohaâ?¦.in pidgin I think that meansâ?¦.thankyouyouâ??rewelcomegoodbye
Horsemanrocks

[oldmac]

Hey Horseman,

Plants are broken down into three classes based on thier photorespiration process. The majority are C3 and include most fruits, vegatables and wheat. C4 plants include corn, millet and sugar cane. And then there's CAM plants that are kinda C4 but are more efficent in certian areas and include catus and pineapples.

BTW: you can get a message to someone on these boards by going to thier profile, and if they have a picture album you can leave a comment about a pic or anything else after clicking on a picture. (Learned that from DutchPimp)I just left a comment for Weezard that way, just now.

[Horsemanrocks]

I appreciate the tips. Just Wikipedia..ed "photorespiration" I'm gonna need to read that more than once....maybe more than twice. Maybe that "math" stuff would be easier.....who said edjamacation was easy.

Horsemanrocks......Well, he used to rock.....I have pictures.....sepia tone pictures!

[Horsemanrocks]

The first info was a phone call to GH Tech support:
I called a tech at GH to ask about any reaction between brass and their nute chemistry. She told me that they use steel screens for the same purpose. So I suppose next time I canâ??t find the plastic fitting that I need, there are increased options.

A week later they returned an earlier e-mail:
Hello,
Brass would not be ideal. It will oxidize in an acid solution and throw of the electrical conductivity of the solution. You need to look for stainless steel, aluminum or plastic.
Thank you,
Jesse Pennington
GH

My inclination is towards the latter.

Horsemanoncerocked.

[Weezard]

"Horsemanrocks......Well, he used to rock."

Guess it was bound to happen.

Rockinghorse guy got no ear for fine singing.:(

I carry my okie n croon us a tune.:wtf4:
He grab at him earbones an' howl at da moon.:buzz_saw:

(I'm an acquired taste.;))

Now he off his rocker now, yah?:silly:
(Some call it, freedom.)

Um, what was the topic again?:stoned:

Alohahaha

Wee zard

[Horsemanrocks]

I read that first thing this morningâ?¦.enjoyed it all day long. Pretty sure that I wouldnâ??t want to do it in person though. But as you say â??itâ??s an acquired tasteâ?�. So maybe if you sing a little (just a little) everydayâ?¦.who knows, maybe Iâ??ll run out and buy the CD.

I built the cutest little pre-filters for the bucket drains today. Havinâ?? fun doing itâ?¦who knows the phone could ring any day now and ruin everything. They say that by 2018 work could pick up again. But by then I certainly will have forgotten how.

Horsemanwillrockagain

[oldmac]

He may be a mo 'zard, but he ain't no composer....or singer.

Horse, to answer your other question, it would be veiwable by anyone who just happen to stumble along until it was deleted. Long shot but possible.
Other site would be better (well after 50posts), did you register? Same handle?

BTW: Here's a pic of a "root guard" made from a spa inlet cover, that I used in a fog based grow tray.

[Weezard]

He may be a mo 'zard, but he ain't no composer....or singer.

Humph!
Everyone's a critic.
I'll have you know that I got favorable mention in the "Menahune earacher's annual ragazine"

They said;" ...Well, nobody died..."

So dere!

Horse, to answer your other question, it would be veiwable by anyone who just happen to stumble along until it was deleted. Long shot but possible.
Other site would be better (well after 50posts), did you register? Same handle?

BTW: Here's a pic of a "root guard" made from a spa inlet cover, that I used in a fog based grow tray.

Yo?! Paniolo, turn your reputation on and I'll send ya a private message here. (It's in your User CP options)


Weeze, (Composer, singer, fly-biter and general lay-about)

[Horsemanrocks]

BTW: Here's a pic of a "root guard" made from a spa inlet cover, that I used in a fog based grow tray.
Very nice, clean, simpleâ?¦.Iâ??ll just have to post the ones I madeâ?¦.for the sole purpose of giving you the best laugh that youâ??ve had in a week. Nothinâ?? clean or simple about my workâ?¦.not pretty either, but I have a planâ?¦..when the roots see them, they wonâ??t want to come anywhere closeâ?¦diabolical it is!
If anybody gets this far into this totally boring thread and is interested Iâ??ll even do a build tutorialâ?¦.I doubt that will happen.

Horse, to answer your other question, it would be veiwable by anyone who just happen to stumble along until it was deleted. Long shot but possible.
Privacy is good. but I donâ??t know that anybody could use it for muchâ?¦.if all else fails, maybe ½ here and ½ over thereâ?¦Itâ??ll eventually work. Iâ??ll only begin a project if the â??Composer, singer, fly-biterâ?� is interested. And I do appreciate your efforts.


Humph!
Everyone's a critic.
I'll have you know that I got favorable mention in the "Menahune earacher's annual ragazine"
The Menehune were little people, somehow I pictued you as a little bit more of Nawao ancestry

Yo?! Paniolo, turn your reputation on and I'll send ya a private message here. (It's in your User CP options)
Its onâ?¦there are a couple of things in there nowâ?¦..And, and, andâ?¦I got points. 51 pointsâ?¦.if I can only figure out how to turn them into cash.

[Weezard]

Gotta spread it around fo' a while...

But, when ya click da tiny scales, you can leave a semi-private comment of some length.

Dat filter's off-kilter.
You're a photographer, like I'm a composer.:D

"The Menehune were little people"

What d'you mean were?:wtf:

An' I'm jus' a wee t90 'zard.
[attachment=o221251]
To me, they're giants, yah?

It's all relative, brah.;):rastasmoke:

Weeze

[Horsemanrocks]

If for any reason anybody has any use for me, and I donâ??t respond. Iâ??m at Verizon and itâ??s been screwy all day. My computer has been running for a couple of weeks now as Iâ??m afraid to turn it off. In the English vernacular â??itâ??s beginning to get a bit wobblyâ?�. A new hard drive arrived today and a re-install is looming. On top of all that a re-install is a headache for me as Iâ??m simply not very good at it.
Itâ??s easy to believe that there wonâ??t be anything pressing hereâ?¦..jus didnâ??t want to appear to be rude. Weâ??ll see what tomorrow will bring!

Dat filter's off-kilter.
You're a photographer, like I'm a composer.
My camera is good, but I really could invest in a lens that letâ??s me get a little closer up. Maybe right after the harddrive, the vehicle needs, the household needs, doctor, dentist, taxes, groceries, pay for sex, and youâ??re rightâ?¦.Iâ??m no photographer.

Since all we ever seem to do is screw aroundâ?¦..a joke.

Whatâ??s the difference between free sex and pay for sex?â?�


Pay for sex is a whole lot cheaper!


The harddrive just stopped making â??that noiseâ?�. Gonna get this in while I can.

Did you ever doubtâ?¦..
Horsemanrocks

[oldmac]

I have a son who's never married, still looking for the "perfect ex-wife" he claims.

Willie has said the next time he thinks he's in love with a woman, he'll just buy her a house, and be done with her. Skip right over the ceremony.

BTW nice root guard you built there, didn't really look too crude...but there again, you know picture quality and all.:D

[Horsemanrocks]

I needed a kind word after â??Dat filterâ??s off kilterâ?�â?¦â?¦you know how I respect his opinion. Senor Zardly isnâ??t always a kind man.

Just did the re-load and for some reason the copy/paste function has a little hitch in its gittyup. Rosanne Rosannadanna remindsâ?¦.â?�Itâ??s always somethingâ?�
There I worked it out��.�and another one bites the dust�

I have a son who's never married, still looking for the "perfect ex-wife" he claims.

If youâ??ll let me call you â??Daddyâ?� you can have two!

Willie has said the next time he thinks he's in love with a woman, he'll just buy her a house, and be done with her. Skip right over the ceremony.

Willie is a very, very wise manâ?¦â?¦can you believe he smokes it! I hope that fulfills our â??on topic requirement.â?�


BTW nice root guard you built there, didn't really look too crude...but there again, you know picture quality and all.

Iâ??m a builderâ?¦â?¦form follows function!

Tomorrowâ?¦Horsemanwillrockagain.

[Weezard]

I needed a kind word after â??Dat filterâ??s off kilterâ?�â?¦â?¦you know how I respect his opinion. Senor Zardly isnâ??t always a kind man. ...

.

Sorry, brah, I was un-clear
Filter? Fine!
Clever, even.

Photo? Feh!

Not always kind, or clear, but usually honest.:cool:

Wee Zard

[oldmac]

Hey there Horsemanrocks,

Just thought I'd pass this on to you. Willies' been vaping it lately.

Check out Silver Surfer Herbal Vaporizer Oil Diffuser/ Ceramic heater (http://www.silversurfervap.com), there's a pic of Willie with SnoopDog.

BTW: It's a great vape (I use one) and the young folks there also make DaBudda vape. A few years back they gave me a great deal on 10 of them that I use for medical patients.

Hope you had a great 4th of July, I think I did, but don't remember it all.

[Horsemanrocks]

Check out Silver Surfer Herbal Vaporizer Oil Diffuser/ Ceramic heater, there's a pic of Willie with SnoopDog.

It appears that the only thing that could make Silver Surfer better is if it had a picture of Willleee right on itâ?¦â?¦..I donâ??t do smileys!

Sorry, brah, I was un-clear
Filter? Fine!

Weezeâ?¦â?¦you really let me downâ?¦..I fully expected you to reply that you were being kind when you replied â??Dat filters off kilterâ?�. Jeezâ?¦.almost feel like I bullied you or somethingâ?¦â?¦.still donâ??t do smileys.

Been beatinâ?? around this site a bit CannaStats Home Page (http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/index.html)
Lotsa good Newb stuff there. Some of it I have to read over and over. I am fully aware that Iâ??m no match for oldmac and the Weezard, and through life Iâ??ve always made up for whatever I am with will and perseveranceâ?¦..I will get itâ?¦..even if I have to read it a few more times than the next guy. Maybe then Iâ??ll put a smileyâ?¦.or not!

Oldmacâ?¦..bunch of old fools on â??selecting a motherâ?�. I laughed pretty hard more than onceâ?¦â?¦good threadâ?¦..thanks!

Hope you had a great 4th of July, I think I did, but don't remember it all.

When I told you that Horseman would rock again on the 4th��well, that was an understatement. I rocked out like nobody has ever rocked out before. I rocked, and I rocked�..hell, musta been 7:30, maybe even quarter to eight before I called it a day. Ok, ok, that deserves a smiley�..Nnaaaahhhhh!

Sâ??all for now
Horsemandidrockagain!

[Weezard]

"�.almost feel like I bullied you or something��."


Actually, ya tugged at me tiny heartstrings.
Almost brought tears to my lidless, non-lachrymal, reptilian, perty blue, eyes, brah.:D

How 'bout grinnies? Does ya do grinnies?:D:D

Rock on Paladin.:cool:

Weeze

[Dutch Pimp]

Rock on Paladin.:cool:

:thumbsup:....

[Horsemanrocks]

Weeze, you posted this once in another thread to help someone out. I used it for the first time today. I place it here for two reasons. (1) so that it gets spread around and (2) to say thank you.

Aloha Esmeralda,

When you bring up the editor to enter a message, use advanced mode.
At the top of the message box you will see a string of icons.
An underlined A, a smilie. and a paper clip.
Clickin' on da clip will open an upload menu.
Browse your hard drive for the photos you want, click 'em, and hit OK.
When you've lit the ones you want, hit upload and wait for that to finish.

(Almost there, but not done yet.)

Return to your message.
Place your cursor where you want the picture to be, then click
the little down arrow next to the paperclip and choose the picture you want in that spot.
It will insert the word "attach" and a number, between right and left carats.
When you preview the post you will see your thumbnail photo which will expand to full size when chosen.

Sounds more complicated than it is.


Just payin' my dues.


Weezard

Horsemanrocks��out!

[oldmac]

Hey Horseman,

Thank's for reposting WeeZard's post. I had never seen that, and it could be handy.
Thanks Mo 'Zard for it also.:thumbsup:

I know Horse you were worried about my health, but after just reading your story of finding a poloroid pic in your pocket...well son I very worried and concerned about your mental health. LOL

[Horsemanrocks]

Well Mac, for those that havenâ??t come to the realization yetâ?¦..my philosophy is this:

â??Iâ??m just in this incarnation for my own entertainment.â?�

I thought that I should even use this for my signature, but times being what they areâ?¦â?¦and it seems quite popular to quote oldmac in your signatureâ?¦.I opted for the latter. Youâ??re everybodyâ??s heroâ?¦â?¦yeah, me too.

Your ongoing discussion with dejayou in another thread. The last that I saw Cervantes (misquoted here) stated that he previously believed that 18/6 was the optimum veg time. But he had new thoughts and evidence to believe that a longer veg time would be optimal. (how much longerâ?¦.he didnâ??t clarify) Iâ??m pretty sure that I could retrieve this, but it would entail re-installing an old harddrive. I would however do it for you if you were still interested. Let me know.

I know Horse you were worried about my health, but after just reading your story of finding a poloroid pic in your pocket...well son I very worried and concerned about your mental health. LOL

I appreciate your concern��I also have concerns regarding that issue.

Horsemanrocks

[hollywood33]

garbage.

[Weezard]

So, who asked ya?:D

Aloha, (ALO - to give, HA - the breath of life)

Weezard

[crabbyback]

So, who asked ya?:D

Aloha, (ALO - to give, HA - the breath of life)

Weezard

Weezard, you are much too kind.

[Weezard]

Weezard, you are much too kind.


Not really, that was only "strike one", my fren'. :D
Evabody has a bad day now and again.

And in truth, the amount of actual information in this thread does give lie to the title, yah?
So far, that is. ;)

Now for an on-topic comment.
Superthrive is bogus!
That should rile the villagers.:)

Aloha, CB.

Weeze

[Horsemanrocks]

Superthrive is bogus!.....Weezard

Yeah, well I use 1 drop per gallon of poi. Don't knock it until you've tried it!

Garbagemanrocks.

[oldmac]

I hope at somepoint someone will explain to me what "garbage" he was referring to.:wtf:

But, if it was superthrive, well I concur, it's garbage.:D

[Horsemanrocks]

Omâ?¦..(donâ??t get me Om-ing) â?¦â?¦He didnâ??t like me. The part that Hollywood missed is that my self image is no longer tied to his opinion.
Did you see how the Weeze defended meâ?¦..another hero. Now Iâ??ve got you, cb, and the Weeze as heroesâ?¦â?¦Is there some kinda limit?
A newbâ??s life is annoyingâ?¦..nothing much to contributeâ?¦â?¦nothing to show. Just biding my time until I can give something back, and trying to enjoy the ride. The only thing lacking is experience.

Aloha, (ALO - to give, HA - the breath of life)
Horsemansucks

[Weezard]

Superthrive is bogus!.....Weezard

Yeah, well I use 1 drop per gallon of poi. Don't knock it until you've tried it!

Garbagemanrocks.

Tried it.

Knock knock!

Aloha,
Weeze