Obama says torturers may face prosecution

[luciddreamer]

Obama may prosecute over torture | theage.com.au (http://www.theage.com.au/world/obama-may-prosecute-over-torture-20090422-afc0.html)

Obama may prosecute over torture

* Ewen Macaskill, Washington
* April 23, 2009
* Page 1 of 2 | Single Page View

IN A surprise about-turn, US President Barack Obama says members of the Bush administration who approved the use of waterboarding and other harsh interrogation measures could face prosecution.

Mr Obama said his Attorney-General, Eric Holder, was conducting an investigation and the final decision rested with him. Mr Obama referred to four Bush administration memos he released last week detailing CIA interrogation measures, saying they "reflected, in my view, us losing our moral bearings".
Obama open to torture charges

US President Barack Obama said he is open to prosecuting officials who laid the legal groundwork for harsh interrogation of detained terror suspects.

Mr Obama also lifted his opposition to a separate congressional inquiry. Last night, White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said the President would like to see the inquiry modelled on the 9/11 commission. Mr Obama reiterated that there would be no prosecutions of CIA agents who carried out the interrogation of suspected al-Qaeda members at Guantanamo Bay and secret prisons around the world.

But for the first time he opened up the possibility that those in the Bush administration who gave the go-ahead for waterboarding and other interrogation techniques could be prosecuted.

"For those who carried out some of these operations within the four corners of legal opinions or guidance that had been provided from the White House, I do not think it's appropriate for them to be prosecuted," Mr Obama said. "With respect to those who formulated those legal decisions, I would say that that is going to be more of a decision for the Attorney-General, within the parameters of various laws, and I don't want to prejudge that."

White House chief of staff Rahm Emanuel said only three days ago that the Administration did not favour prosecutions of those who had devised the policy, and Mr Gibbs echoed that on Monday.

Mr Obama again indicated that he remained opposed to politicisation of the issue, saying it might hamper national security operations. But he added: "If and when there needs to be a further accounting of what took place during this period, I think for Congress to examine ways that it can be done in a bipartisan fashion â?¦ that would probably be a more sensible approach to take."

Republicans reacted angrily. "What happened to him talking about not looking backward, about looking forward?" said Republican senator John Ensign of Nevada. "I think it's a huge mistake," said Republican senator Lindsey Graham. "If we start criminalising legal advice given to a past president, advice you may disagree with, that's on the margins of legal thought, in your opinion, you've really harmed the presidency."

Mr Obama's own Director of National Intelligence privately told his workforce last week that the now-banned methods had produced valuable information.

"High-value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al-Qaeda organisation that was attacking this country," Dennis Blair wrote in an April 16 memo to staff.

A version of the memo was distributed to the media without that line. But in a statement to the White House summarising his views, Mr Blair said: "The damage (the interrogation methods) have done to our interests far outweighed whatever benefit they gave us and they are not essential to our national security."

[thedeadone]

Mr. Otruama is at it again. I realy think this guy hates americans- and our freedoms given to us by the constitution.

[gypski]

It will prove just how crazy a society we live in if they don't prosecute these torturers and other criminals from the Bush administration and continue to arrest and prosecute medical or recreational marijuana/cannabis users. Cannabis users don't torture as far as I've had experience. We're not perfect, but come no where close to that. :thumbsup:

[JaggedEdge]

It will prove just how crazy a society we live in if they don't prosecute these torturers and other criminals from the Bush administration and continue to arrest and prosecute medical or recreational marijuana/cannabis users. Cannabis users don't torture as far as I've had experience. We're not perfect, but come no where close to that. :thumbsup:

Speak for yourself. I smoke weed daily but if I discovered a member of a terrorist organization who was planning some terrorist act, I would happily torture them in order to get the needed information to protect American lives.

Obama is the fucking criminal here for giving CIA secrets away to the world! How exactly does that benefit our national security? I see nothing wrong with torturing our enemies in order to gain the knowledge to protect ourselves from said enemies.

I suppose we should just hand em a joint, drop to our knees and start sucking their dick until they give us the information we need... That is far more humane, except for one small problem, it wouldn't work.

[gypski]

For the sake of debate, I suppose you don't believe in the doctrine of cruel and unusual punishment either then? :D Torture has never gotten to the truth. Just look at the Inquisition. I suppose you'd support that too? :stoned: To each their own as they say. :pimp:

And to qualify myself, if you harmed mine, you'd suffer the worst of retribution if I had to take the law into my own hands. Still, it would be tempered by the degree of the crime. Will the government torture someone to find out where a grow is? Do you support that? Where do you draw the line?

[JaggedEdge]

Your comparing torturing war captives to religious persecution? We aren't talking about cruel and unusual punishment in it's traditional sense.

Torture has never gotten results? How exactly do you know that?

We aren't talking about them torturing citizens to find out where a grow op is. The people being interrogated were war prisoners, enemies of the state, not American citizens. If they ever began torturing American citizens I would speak up and fight against that, but that isn't what were talking about here.

Not to mention, why should we treat our enemies better than they treat us. Do you not remember the beheading videos of American's in the Middle East? Do you think our enemies give a shit about how they get information from their captives?

[killerweed420]

There's a reason why all the civilized nations signed the Geneva Convention. Because its wrong to torture anyone and the knowledge gained from torturing is usually worthless. If we resort ot torture then we should just stop all pretenses of civilized nation. Go back to the wild west days and we just shoot anyone we don't like.

[gypski]

We aren't talking about cruel and unusual punishment in it's traditional sense.

Torture has never gotten results? How exactly do you know that?



Case in point: The Raw Story | Cheney pushed torture techniques to find Iraq, Qaeda tie: report (http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Bush_administration_used_torture_techniques_in_042 2.html)

And, no we don't behead either. At least not the we are aware of.

[justanotherbozo]

There's a reason why all the civilized nations signed the Geneva Convention. Because its wrong to torture anyone and the knowledge gained from torturing is usually worthless. If we resort ot torture then we should just stop all pretenses of civilized nation. Go back to the wild west days and we just shoot anyone we don't like.

as far as i am concerned, terrorists and pirates don't deserve to be treated by the Geneva conventions. they're not soldiers, they're rabid dogs and should be shot on sight.

also, if i had to water-board someone so i could prevent them from cutting off your head, i'd do it in a minute.

this is just another tactic by the Obama administration to keep us looking at Bush so we won't see the bullshit that's really going on!
it's just sleight of hand, a dog and pony show to distract us while Obama bin Laden sells America to the highest bidder.

[psychocat]

So much for the belief in innocent until proven guilty.
If I were to torture someone I am pretty sure they would have a breaking point at which time they will tell me whatever I want them to.
This does not make what they say the truth.

Torture is a thing of the dark ages and really has no place in a so called civilised society. How can you denounce Saddam or others for using something and then go right ahead and use the very same thing ,wouldn't that make you a hypocrite ?

The people responsible for giving the go ahead to torture should be treat as criminals.

[justanotherbozo]

you can't bring a knife to a gun fight, these people will blow up your mother and your daughter
simply because they don't believe in Allah, and then they'll cut your friggin' head off.

they don't play by the same rules as we do, hell, they don't have any rules!

i hope they don't detonate a nuke here in America before people like you start to
get it.

[psychocat]

you can't bring a knife to a gun fight, these people will blow up your mother and your daughter
simply because they don't believe in Allah, and then they'll cut your friggin' head off.

they don't play by the same rules as we do, hell, they don't have any rules!

i hope they don't detonate a nuke here in America before people like you start to
get it.

This really smacks of ignorance and xenophobia.

[JaggedEdge]

This really smacks of ignorance and xenophobia.

Xenophobia is an unreasonable fear of foreigners. I think the killing of 2,000 or so American citizens makes the fear reasonable.

What exactly was wrong with his statement? I failed to see where he said Muslims, he simply said terrorists which is simply a portion of the Muslim population.

[psychocat]

these people will blow up your mother and your daughter
simply because they don't believe in Allah

That does give a very clear indication of the object of his post.
I don't know of too many Christians that praise Allah .
Perhaps xenophobia was the wrong choice of word since his fears are in fact more to do with religion.

However , neither his post nor yours is really on topic.

How it is supposed to relate to the question of wether torture is okay as long as it's us doing the torturing is beyond me but I'm sure he will enlighten us.

BTW
I can be a pedant too
Could you please hilight the point in his post where he mentions "terrorists", he didn't, he used the very vague "these people".

[JaggedEdge]

as far as i am concerned, terrorists and pirates don't deserve to be treated by the Geneva conventions. they're not soldiers, they're rabid dogs and should be shot on sight.

also, if i had to water-board someone so i could prevent them from cutting off your head, i'd do it in a minute.


There you go psyco, he mentioned it in his first reply to the OP.



these people will blow up your mother and your daughter
simply because they don't believe in Allah

That does give a very clear indication of the object of his post.
I don't know of too many Christians that praise Allah .
Perhaps xenophobia was the wrong choice of word since his fears are in fact more to do with religion.

Seeing as these extremist seem to be fighting a holy war, is statement was not at all off base. And yes, they have already blown up Americans mothers, daughters, sons, moms wives, etc as well as many other nationalities both on 9/11 and other terrorist attacks around the world. Their entire hatred for Western Civilization is based on their extreme religious views. Hell, their motivation is that Allah has promised them nearly 100 virgins if they sacrifice their life in a terrorist attack.

How exactly is this not relevant? These are the people who were tortured under the Bush administration, these are our enemies. How the fuck is it not important to the topic?

We aren't going over their kidnapping innocent children and water boarding them, these are terrorists, enemy combatants, most of which have been exiled from their native country meaning they are no longer protected under the Geneva Convention.

[psychocat]

You assume an awful lot.
You assume they are guilty.
You assume they were caught in combat
You assume they are terrorists.

Once more I will ask "How does that equate with the very American edict of innocent until proven guilty" ?

If a member of your own family was accused of a crime would you advocate the use of torture ?

How can you trust any information given under those conditions ?

Are you not trying to blur the lines by saying it's okay to torture certain people but not others ?
Where do you draw the line ?
Should waterboarding be used in all investigations , hell why not go back to the old days of policing and get out the rubber hoses.

Do you understand that you cannot denounce an act that you yourself are commiting , regardless of who the victim is ?

[JaggedEdge]

We are talking about extreme circumstances in a time of war. Exceptions are easily made in times of war.

There may be a few low level enemy combatants mistaken for high level officers who were tortured, that is simply an unfortunate event. Wars are nasty and they will never be completely civilized.

I'm not saying all information gained from torture is legitimate, however, some of it surely is. Innocent until proven guilty deals with American courts, it isn't required to carry over to war tribunals and war prisoners.

They aren't protected by our laws and Constitution.

[psychocat]

If ,as you claim they are prisoners of war then surely that is a case for the Geneva Convention ?

Please clarify this for me.

How can someone claim the moral high ground and denounce a practice that they themselves use ? Isn't that a tad contradictory ?

[JaggedEdge]

Here is a site with the text of the Geneva Convention in regard to war prisoners. (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm)


"Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, color, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria."

It also states it applies to:

"Persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:



Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.
Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfill the following conditions:

That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
That of carrying arms openly;
That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.




The prisoners we are talking about here are not protected under the Geneva Convention.

[JaggedEdge]

I apologize to you psycho for giving you negative rep for the xenophobia comment especially since the dude hasn't responded to defend himself. I assumed he was talking about the Muslim extremist since he mentioned terrorists in his first post, however, he knows for sure, I'm just making an assumption. :hippy:

The inappropriate use of strong words like xenophobia is simply a huge pet peeve of mine.

[justanotherbozo]

i didn't defend myself because i've dealt with enough left-wingers that insist on
playing by the rules while the jihadists continue killing innocent people.

the truth is, some of these people will never get it, they'll just continue to insist
that we are wrong while they themselves turn the other cheek. i guess they just
don't realize that that only gives the jihadists a better angle to cut thier friggin
heads off.

if some of their family is killed in the next attack maybe then they'll get it.

i'll say it again, you can't apply the rules of boxing to a cage fight!

[epxroot]

Torture has never gotten results? How exactly do you know that?

How do you know it has?


We aren't talking about them torturing citizens to find out where a grow op is. The people being interrogated were war prisoners, enemies of the state, not American citizens. If they ever began torturing American citizens I would speak up and fight against that, but that isn't what were talking about here.

So, if our own soldiers are war prisoners, or enemies of the state, then it would be OK to torture American Soldiers?


Not to mention, why should we treat our enemies better than they treat us. Do you not remember the beheading videos of American's in the Middle East? Do you think our enemies give a shit about how they get information from their captives?

Because you lead by example. Do you not remember what our Government did to it's own citizens? The tuskegee experiment, ruby ridge, waco, rainbow farms, japanese during ww2, war on drugs, and the list goes on and on. Do you think our "Leaders" give a shit about us?

[epxroot]

Seeing as these extremist seem to be fighting a holy war, is statement was not at all off base. And yes, they have already blown up Americans mothers, daughters, sons, moms wives, etc as well as many other nationalities both on 9/11 and other terrorist attacks around the world.

Which we had plent of intelligence before this ever happened and failed miserably to protect the American people.


Their entire hatred for Western Civilization is based on their extreme religious views.

Pure propaganda


We aren't going over their kidnapping innocent children and water boarding them, these are terrorists, enemy combatants, most of which have been exiled from their native country meaning they are no longer protected under the Geneva Convention.

How do you know what went on over there?

[gypski]

Lets see how the pro-torture groups feel once they capture some of our troops in Afganistan and attempt to extract information from them using the same torture techniques. :twocents:.

[justanotherbozo]

Lets see how the pro-torture groups feel once they capture some of our troops in Afganistan and attempt to extract information from them using the same torture techniques. :twocents:.

and when they're done laughing at the stupid Americans and their stupid rules,
they'll just behead our troops.

[gypski]

and when they're done laughing at the stupid Americans and their stupid rules,
they'll just behead our troops.

Although there may be a glimmer of reality in that, and looking at what occurred at Falluja with the Blackwater people, and David Burg, it could be possible. Does that mean we have to stoop to that level of barbarity? Could you behead a person without tossing your guts? If your into torture, you better lay off the medication. Its taking you in the wrong direction. :D

Take this personal torture test and see if you approve. Get some pepper spray and spray it on your ass, or have a friend do it and record your reaction. Or have a friend tie your hands and feet, put you on your stomach, then take a rope and tie your feet and hand together. Hog tie you up tight and see how long you last. :jointsmile:

Record this too for Youtube, then come back and tell us how you still support torture of underlings and other low levels with no actionable intelligence but what ever you want them to admit to. :twocents:

[JaggedEdge]

How do you know it has?
I don't, my main point here is that Obama hurt our national security by releasing the documents. If he wanted to end it fine, he doesn't need to make a publicity stunt and release secrets to the entire world and our enemies.




So, if our own soldiers are war prisoners, or enemies of the state, then it would be OK to torture American Soldiers?
Our soldiers are protected under the Geneva Convention. When we start strapping bombs to our chests, than we can compare us to them.




Because you lead by example. Do you not remember what our Government did to it's own citizens? The tuskegee experiment, ruby ridge, waco, rainbow farms, japanese during ww2, war on drugs, and the list goes on and on. Do you think our "Leaders" give a shit about us?

Of course our government has done some shitty things to Americans as well. Simply because we allow torture of foreign terrorists doesn't mean it will be used against us, when that happens than I will change my stance, I feel that is unlikely though.

[higher4hockey]

So I guess obamas plan is to close down gitmo, pull the troops out of Iraq, and prosecute Americans for fighting the war on terror ? goodness.

[JaggedEdge]

So I guess obamas plan is to close down gitmo, pull the troops out of Iraq, and prosecute Americans for fighting the war on terror ? goodness.

I read an article several days ago about American soldiers who were lost and separated from their unit. They came across an Iraqi teen, they became worried for their safety, and deliberated as to if they should kill the Iraqi. They decided not to kill him out of fear of a shit storm being started and them being prosecuted. As it turned out, the kid gave their position to the enemy.

Why do we not protect our citizens and soldiers first and than worry about the rest of the world?

[higher4hockey]

same thing happened in afghanistan. the book lone survivor tells all about it.

i just got back from iraq, and believe me, its ridiculous. there's a saying over there. "its better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six"

[JaggedEdge]

While we are on this subject, let's clarify what these techniques entailed. They way people are talking you would think we are using medieval tactics.

Set the Record Straight: Publish All Key Memos on CIA Interrogations (http://www.heritage.org/Research/HomelandSecurity/wm2406.cfm)


What the Memos Reveal

While many media accounts portrayed the memos as evidence that interrogation practices were both illegal and ineffective and therefore an indictment of Bush policies, others disagree.


For example, after analyzing the memos, David Rivkin and Lee Casey concluded in The Wall Street Journal, "The four memos on CIA interrogation released by the White House last week reveal a cautious and conservative Justice Department advising a CIA that cared deeply about staying within the law. Far from 'green lighting' torture--or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of detainees--the memos detail the actual techniques used and the many measures taken to ensure that interrogations did not cause severe pain or degradation."[2]
(http://www.heritage.org/Research/HomelandSecurity/wm2406.cfm#_ftn2)




What has not been released, however, is all the other relevant information about the program that would help Americans better understand both how it worked and how effective it was.



While The Washington Post reported that "Justice Department documents released yesterday offer the fullest account to date of Bush administration interrogation tactics, including previously unacknowledged strategies,"[3] (http://www.heritage.org/Research/HomelandSecurity/wm2406.cfm#_ftn3) it failed to note that many key details about the program, including those that might put interrogation policies in a more favorable light, were not disclosed.


For example, former Vice President Cheney noted in an interview, "One of the things that I find a little bit disturbing about this recent disclosure is they put out the legal memos, the memos that the CIA got from the Office of Legal Counsel, but they didn't put out the memos that showed the success of the effort."[4] (http://www.heritage.org/Research/HomelandSecurity/wm2406.cfm#_ftn4) The Vice President stated that he had previously asked for the declassification of additional memos. In recent press interviews, he renewed his request.Here is an article pointing out the misinformation about Walling.

The Memos Prove We Didn't Torture - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124018665408933455.html)


The four memos on CIA interrogation released by the White House last week reveal a cautious and conservative Justice Department advising a CIA that cared deeply about staying within the law. Far from "green lighting" torture -- or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of detainees -- the memos detail the actual techniques used and the many measures taken to ensure that interrogations did not cause severe pain or degradation.


Interrogations were to be "continuously monitored" and "the interrogation team will stop the use of particular techniques or the interrogation altogether if the detainee's medical or psychological conditions indicates that the detainee might suffer significant physical or mental harm."
An Aug. 1, 2002, memo describes the practice of "walling" -- recently revealed in a report by the International Committee of the Red Cross, which suggested that detainees wore a "collar" used to "forcefully bang the head and body against the wall" before and during interrogation. In fact, detainees were placed with their backs to a "flexible false wall," designed to avoid inflicting painful injury. Their shoulder blades -- not head -- were the point of contact, and the "collar" was used not to give additional force to a blow, but further to protect the neck.


The memo says the point was to inflict psychological uncertainty, not physical pain: "the idea is to create a sound that will make the impact seem far worse than it is and that will be far worse than any injury that might result from the action."


Shackling and confinement in a small space (generally used to create discomfort and muscle fatigue) were also part of the CIA program, but they were subject to stringent time and manner limitations. Abu Zubaydah (a top bin Laden lieutenant) had a fear of insects. He was, therefore, to be put in a "cramped confinement box" and told a stinging insect would be put in the box with him. In fact, the CIA proposed to use a harmless caterpillar. Confinement was limited to two hours.


The memos are also revealing about the practice of "waterboarding," about which there has been so much speculative rage from the program's opponents. The practice, used on only three individuals, involved covering the nose and mouth with a cloth and pouring water over the cloth to create a drowning sensation.


This technique could be used for up to 40 seconds -- although the CIA orally informed Justice Department lawyers that it would likely not be used for more than 20 seconds at a time. Unlike the exaggerated claims of so many Bush critics, the memos make clear that water was not actually expected to enter the detainee's lungs, and that measures were put in place to prevent complications if this did happen and to ensure that the individual did not develop respiratory distress.


All of these interrogation methods have been adapted from the U.S. military's own Survival Evasion Resistance Escape (or SERE) training program, and have been used for years on thousands of American service members with the full knowledge of Congress. This has created a large body of information about the effect of these techniques, on which the CIA was able to draw in assessing the likely impact on the detainees and ensuring that no severe pain or long term psychological impact would result.


The actual intelligence benefits of the CIA program are also detailed in these memos. The CIA believed, evidently with good reason, that the enhanced interrogation program had indeed produced actionable intelligence about al Qaeda's plans. First among the resulting successes was the prevention of a "second wave" of al Qaeda attacks, to be carried out by an "east Asian" affiliate, which would have involved the crashing of another airplane into a building in Los Angeles.


The interrogation techniques described in these memos are indisputably harsh, but they fall well short of "torture." They were developed and deployed at a time of supreme peril, as a means of preventing future attacks on innocent civilians both in the U.S. and abroad.
The dedicated public servants at the CIA and Justice Department -- who even the Obama administration has concluded should not be prosecuted -- clearly cared intensely about staying within the law as well as protecting the American homeland. These memos suggest that they achieved both goals in a manner fully consistent with American values.

Messrs. Rivkin and Casey, who served in the Justice Department under George H.W. Bush, were U.S. delegates to the U.N. Subcommission on the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights.

We are talking about psychological tactics not physical and barbaric torture here.

[JaggedEdge]

same thing happened in afghanistan. the book lone survivor tells all about it.

i just got back from iraq, and believe me, its ridiculous. there's a saying over there. "its better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six"

That's what it was actually, an article about that book.

[gypski]

Well, since some approve of torture, you in the military, if you happen to get captured look forward to this and even more drastic measures. Remember the old adage, what goes around, comes around. And I'm not defending any one just denouncing torture in any form as a wasted form of gaining information.

Try this at home on yourself and let us all know how it is not torture but just a little extreme stress.

The Raw Story | Suit: Torture began before Bush administration sanctioned it (http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Suit_Torture_began_before_Justice_Department_0423. html)

[justanotherbozo]

Well, since some approve of torture, you in the military, if you happen to get captured look forward to this and even more drastic measures. Remember the old adage, what goes around, comes around. And I'm not defending any one just denouncing torture in any form as a wasted form of gaining information.

Try this at home on yourself and let us all know how it is not torture but just a little extreme stress.

The Raw Story | Suit: Torture began before Bush administration sanctioned it (http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Suit_Torture_began_before_Justice_Department_0423. html)

shit man! they're already cuttin' off our fuckin' heads man, what worse could they do?
by your own argument, we're just givin' back what they gave us, only not nearly as brutally.

you should think long and hard and try to understand that freedom isn't free,
sometimes it takes harsh action. it's easy to 'do unto others as you would have
them do unto you' when you're dealing with reasonable people but when you are
talking about people willing to blow themselves up to get you, well then you have
to 'do unto others before they do unto you', or you're dead.

like it says in higher4hockey's sig, this is the land of the free because of the brave.

maybe you should listen to veterans like higher4hockey and the family's of
those that died on 9\11 rather than Nancy Pelosi.

or not, that's the beauty of America, you're entitled to any opinion you want,
as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else for you to have it. just remember though,
the Kool-Aid is to the left.

[apocolips31]

Well just look at that! Obama done did it again......:wtf:

[epxroot]

I don't, my main point here is that Obama hurt our national security by releasing the documents. If he wanted to end it fine, he doesn't need to make a publicity stunt and release secrets to the entire world and our enemies.

In what way has our "national security" been hurt?





Our soldiers are protected under the Geneva Convention. When we start strapping bombs to our chests, than we can compare us to them.

If you were in a third world country with no military, or billions to spend on weapons to kill, how would you fight an empire?



Of course our government has done some shitty things to Americans as well. Simply because we allow torture of foreign terrorists doesn't mean it will be used against us, when that happens than I will change my stance, I feel that is unlikely though.

So, you want to wait until it happens?

[epxroot]

While we are on this subject, let's clarify what these techniques entailed. They way people are talking you would think we are using medieval tactics.

Set the Record Straight: Publish All Key Memos on CIA Interrogations (http://www.heritage.org/Research/HomelandSecurity/wm2406.cfm)


Here is an article pointing out the misinformation about Walling.

The Memos Prove We Didn't Torture - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124018665408933455.html)



We are talking about psychological tactics not physical and barbaric torture here.


Well, I will not attack the source, but you do understand that WSJ is a right wing paper correct? Anyway, back to "Torture". Are you saying that just because this is not about physical, or barbaric tactics, and it is just psychological, that it is OK? I would rather have physical torture performed on me, than psychological.

[gypski]

shit man! they're already cuttin' off our fuckin' heads man, what worse could they do?
by your own argument, we're just givin' back what they gave us, only not nearly as brutally.

you should think long and hard and try to understand that freedom isn't free,
sometimes it takes harsh action. it's easy to 'do unto others as you would have
them do unto you' when you're dealing with reasonable people but when you are
talking about people willing to blow themselves up to get you, well then you have
to 'do unto others before they do unto you', or you're dead.

like it says in higher4hockey's sig, this is the land of the free because of the brave.

maybe you should listen to veterans like higher4hockey and the family's of
those that died on 9\11 rather than Nancy Pelosi.

or not, that's the beauty of America, you're entitled to any opinion you want,
as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else for you to have it. just remember though,
the Kool-Aid is to the left.

Before you give me the patriotic speech, I'm an ex-Marine and I know all about war and its results. We didn't start cutting off heads and won't make it part of our rules of engagement. Sorry, but if you had been a troop under me and tried some attrocites, I have you up on charges. Discipline is needed on the battle field, not a bunch of maniacs.

I'm more concerned about our own troops killing themselves after they've come back home. Quit drinking the righty kool-aid on Fox. Its hazardous for one's health. :twocents:

[psychocat]

The main problem with the "look what they're doing to our boys" argument is the simple fact that "our boys" shouldn't have been there in the first place.

[JaggedEdge]

The main problem with the "look what they're doing to our boys" argument is the simple fact that "our boys" shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Which place are you referring to? Afghanistan or Iraq?

Seeing as an organization responsible for attacking Americans on American soil is located in Afghanistan, our army had every right to retaliate and try to eliminate the enemy. I am afraid Afghanistan will turn into our modern day Vietnam though.

Now if you are referring to Iraq. We overthrew a dictator who was responsible for ordering the murder of 148 Shiites. So, although I don't exactly agree with this war, it is certainly justifiable on a moral level. It is also hard to blame Bush for the intelligence he acted on. Many reports from several different nations all said Iraq had WMD's, not to mention, historically they have had them.

[boaz]

..."its better to be judged by twelve, than carried by six"

words of wisdom, eh? we didn't invent democracy and the rule of law but its working out pretty well for us here in the US. i'm glad to see it starting to take root in Iraq, too.

:s4:

[boaz]

"We are America, we don't fucking torture". Fox News Network :jointsmile:

[psychocat]

Which place are you referring to? Afghanistan or Iraq?

Seeing as an organization responsible for attacking Americans on American soil is located in Afghanistan, our army had every right to retaliate and try to eliminate the enemy. I am afraid Afghanistan will turn into our modern day Vietnam though.

Now if you are referring to Iraq. We overthrew a dictator who was responsible for ordering the murder of 148 Shiites. So, although I don't exactly agree with this war, it is certainly justifiable on a moral level. It is also hard to blame Bush for the intelligence he acted on. Many reports from several different nations all said Iraq had WMD's, not to mention, historically they have had them.

The reasons you give are complete bollocks.
The nationalities of those who attacked America had absolutely nothing to do with any one country and since the majority were Saudis I would say we are well off our target area.
WMDs is the biggest joke around, it was always a bullshit excuse.
The support for Saddam when he was doing what the US wished is so easily forgotten isn't it.

However this is all off topic since the question is a very simple one.

Can any country that denounces torture then uses it themselves be considered as any better than those they denounce ?

The only logical answer is NO.

[yokinazu]

its all propaganda.

we aint endin dick but we are goin to make it huge news that we are goin to. we'll close gitmo but we'll open another facility in someother shitty part of the world and waterboard the fuck outa these prisoners far away from the press. but we are goin to make a big show of closing the prisons, prosicuting the torturers and the like.

[dossantos]

Im not going to slate america..
America has contributed so much to the world..
Without the US we would not have all the beautiful strains of weed..

But ye guys over react.. The strange thing about 9/11 was the hysterical reaction..
On websites tv etc.. it was like watching the nazis in the 30's.. All chanting USA USA.. Crazy for revenge.. Baying for blood... And with a lunatic at the helm..(GWB)..
A couple of thousand people got killed...
In europe and the middle east people have got used of war and bombs...

Was it that much of a shock that after years of doing what u wanted around the world somebody kicked back..
The big suprise for me is that this has not happenned more often..
2 times.. Pearl Harbour and 9/11..

I think Obama has to be good for the world..
He has improved the image of the US...
He has got a real positive image in Europe and i think it really is time for change...
The world wants to love the US..
Its where most of us look to for clothes, tv, movies, music etc..

Peace and Love all...

Cannabis 2012 "The year of the Leaf"...

[justanotherbozo]

kool-aid to the left

[JaggedEdge]

But ye guys over react.. The strange thing about 9/11 was the hysterical reaction..
On websites tv etc.. it was like watching the nazis in the 30's.. All chanting USA USA.. Crazy for revenge.. Baying for blood... And with a lunatic at the helm..(GWB)..
A couple of thousand people got killed...
In europe and the middle east people have got used of war and bombs...

Simply because other countries are to pussified to retaliate doesn't mean America should follow Europe's lead.


Was it that much of a shock that after years of doing what u wanted around the world somebody kicked back..And European countries haven't done the same throughout history?


The big suprise for me is that this has not happenned more often..
2 times.. Pearl Harbour and 9/11.. And both times America was quick to respond. It sends the message to enemies that if they are going to bomb American soil, they better deliver a crushing blow in that initial attack or face the wrath of our armed forces. I have been very interested in American history, and I'm certain our founders would support our retaliatory actions.


I think Obama has to be good for the world..
He has improved the image of the US...
He has got a real positive image in Europe and i think it really is time for change...Why the fuck should we care what Europe thinks of us? And why the hell is he apologizing for the U.S. over there? We have given a lot of great things to the world community in our short reign as a nation. Yet we are apologizing. WTF? What exactly do we have to apologize for? I didn't realize these European nations had such a respectable track record.

Obama needs to be good for America, not the world. He is our goddamn leader, so he better start acting in our best fucking interest before we have 1776 part II.


world wants to love the US..
Its where most of us look to for clothes, tv, movies, music etc..No they don't. We donate more money to other nations than any other country, but nobody gives a shit. People love hating America. Our President sure as hell shouldn't be apologizing to the rest of the world on our behalf. We have nothing to apologize for! Our history certainly isn't completely clean, but nobodies is!

And the rest of the world doesn't seem to like him that much. They didn't seem to appreciate him pushing for them to give massive stimulus packages to their people. I know for a fact German and French leaders have publicly expressed their anger and annoyance at him in the past month or so.

[higher4hockey]

^yeah!!

[justanotherbozo]

:rambo: what he said !

[psychocat]

A simple question of logic dictates that if torture is wrong for others to commit (this is something all civilised societies agree) then it is wrong no matter who is doing it.

Twist and whine all you want but the truth is you can't take the moral highground as a hypocrite.

[higher4hockey]

uhh...flowers and sunshine is all i took from that.


ive been to iraq, ive dealt with the enemies of the US firsthand. dont give me that moral highground shit, when shit hits the fan and we need to know something fast, give me a pair of pliers and a blow torch and we'll get some answers out of haj. war sucks. its not for cry babies and soft ass lefties. bad things happen, good people die, and mofos get tortured. thats the way it is, and thats the way its probably always going to be.

i saw a bumper sticker on a vets car once that said: if you havent been to iraq or afghanistan, then shut the fuck up.

[justanotherbozo]

A simple question of logic dictates that if torture is wrong for others to commit (this is something all civilised societies agree) then it is wrong no matter who is doing it.

Twist and whine all you want but the truth is you can't take the moral highground as a hypocrite.

calling it torture doesn't make it torturous. a rose by any other name is still
a bunch of leftist bullshit

maybe you should leave American politics to Americans

[psychocat]

calling it torture doesn't make it torturous. a rose by any other name is still
a bunch of leftist bullshit

maybe you should leave American politics to Americans

The bullshit you smell is most definately your own.
I couldn't care less for people if I tried.

Americas politics are as corrupt and retarded as any countries politics, all politics is bullshit.

I am however a pedant when it comes to hypocrisy.

Since your own goverment uses the word torture to describe the acts carried out how is it even possible to argue with that definition ?

BTW
The only things that motivate me are logic and honesty, they are the only things that count, everything else is secondary.
I have no political affiliations as that is simply a way to choose who you want to get screwed by for the next however many years.
What do you call 500 politicians at the bottom of the sea?

A fuckin' good start. :thumbsup:

[JaggedEdge]

Since your own goverment uses the word torture to describe the acts carried out how is it even possible to argue with that definition ?

That argument isn't as valid as you would like to believe. Seeing as Obama and his administration seem to have alternative motives with all this, their calling it torture doesn't really mean much. They are sucking up to the international community as they have been doing since they took office, they have also been trying to demonize the Bush administration at every possible turn.

Had Cheney and Bush referred to it as torture your argument would be valid, but seeing as Obama is desperately trying to portray all our nations problems as a result of the Bush administration, their calling it torture clearly benefits them in this way.

I agree a lot of our problems are a result of Bush, as well as the democratic controlled congress. Unfortunately, the democrats in power today aren't willing to share the blame. They need a scapegoat and the Bush administration is the perfect target.

[psychocat]

Waterboarding has been considered torture for over a century and the US military is banned from using it.
For some reason (known only to those who decided it) the CIA is not banned from torturing

Does that clarify it better ?

I do like the wrangling with definitions that the lawyers are pursuing.
Enhanced interrogation technique LMAO

Do you think I could use something similar and claim that I was only guilty of extreme body modification if I should ever feel the need to chop someone up ? :D

[justanotherbozo]

God shave the Queen!

[delusionsofNORMALity]

A couple of thousand people got killed...
In europe and the middle east people have got used of war and bombs...
Was it that much of a shock that after years of doing what u wanted around the world somebody kicked back..i've never been much of a flag waver (in fact, i've been known to burn a flag or two in my time), but i do believe in giving credit where credit is due and damning those whose world view is tinted by prejudice and popular opinion.

where you ever got the idea that people anywhere in the world ever get used to the destruction of war is beyond me. every wayward bullet and stray bomb fragment is followed by screams for retribution and reparation from a seemingly infinite number of voices. a mis-aimed american missile is enough to call down howls of derision from every corner of the world, even though a suicide bomber killing dozens or even hundreds of innocents is seen as a proper response to the slightest of insults.

i've also gotten pretty damn sick of the universal blame that has settled on the u.s. for all of the world's woes. while every third world cesspool with an axe to grind seems to be claiming that the corruption of american capitalism has stolen their wealth, they seem to conveniently forget the trillions of dollars of aid that has always flowed from us to every corner of the world in times of need and to ignore their own rampant corruption. while the world's economies reel from the shock waves of our economic collapse and look to us to clean up what they seem to feel is our mess, they all prefer to forget how willing they were to go along for the ride in better times and make their billions on america's coat tails. while the american military is berated as the cause of violence across the globe, no one wishes to point out that that violence is growing in even those corners of the world where american influence is almost nonexistent and to conveniently forget (once again) the number of times that that same military has been called upon by the world to quell that violence.


I think Obama has to be good for the world..
He has improved the image of the US...
He has got a real positive image in Europe and i think it really is time for change...as JE has already pointed out; brak is not the world's president, but ours. that positive image is being built on apologies where none are warranted. he builds up the egos of second and third rate powers by genuflecting before their arrogance and illusory moral superiority, seeking to send us down the path of their socialistic stagnation. these has-beens, scurrying desperately to regain their past glories, have taken the road of mediocrity and the messiah sees their failure as the success we should be aiming for. where he should be finding ways to strengthen and support the ideology that has placed us in the position of a world superpower, he instead seems determined to tear all of that down and and replace it with failed socialist dogma and a totalitarian bureaucracy. that change you so long for seems to be the entropy of a world society and the destruction of the individual.


The world wants to love the US..only a fool could really believe this. the world wants us to fail. though they are willingly dominated by a robust america, they would prefer to see us broken and ripe for their scavenging. they may be more than happy to use our strengths, but they would rather see our wealth decline and our liberty decimated as a warning to any who should revere the power of the individual. brak seems all too eager to trade our heritage for the feigned respect of a greedy world community.

[dossantos]

Whoooo.....

Pity whoever does eventually invade the USA if even the stoners are militant...
Respect to u for your patriotic views..

U r true Americans..

[delusionsofNORMALity]

Pity whoever does eventually invade the USA if even the stoners are militant...
Respect to u for your patriotic views..i have no use for the blindness of rabid patriotism nor for that of its opposite. i find it difficult to defend the use of harsh interrogation techniques, even when i see their necessity, and i see this country as only a means to an even better end, with even more freedom and an even greater reverence for the power of the individual. my days of militancy are long since past.

the invasion began long ago. we are in the process of being taken over by the indolence and avarice of the ignorant masses, led by a power hungry bureaucracy that uses the ignorant as figurative cannon fodder in their quest for a totalitarian regime. violence is of little use against such an onslaught, only by example can we hope to show that the tide can be turned. the herd may willingly follow their masters down the path of least resistance, but there will always be those that see the virtue of the hard road.

damn, stoned again.:jointsmile:

[JaggedEdge]

Whoooo.....

Pity whoever does eventually invade the USA if even the stoners are militant...
Respect to u for your patriotic views..

U r true Americans..

I for one, believe in what this country was founded upon and would be willing to risk my life in defense of our sovereignty. Unfortunately it appears an invading force isn't necessary, it appears our leaders are happy demolishing it from the inside.

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Property/Happiness. Our current administration is already threatening our three most basic and cherished rights. I will fight my own government as well as a foreign army to protect those and other rights.

[delusionsofNORMALity]

I will fight my own government as well as a foreign army to protect those and other rights.you'll soon find yourself fighting your neighbors for the simple freedom of believing in the constitution. the fools will always multiply beyond their means, as the wise quietly defend what is theirs.

too broke to do much, too high to care.:jointsmile:

[dossantos]

One of the consequenses of having a country founded on the principles that the USA was is that u have to respect ure fellow americans views..

America voted for obama... Not the world.
He is ure president.

GWB was also voted for by the majority of americans..

I think the media is responsible for hyping and encouraging the paranoia that seems to have taken over the US.

America now thinks everybody hates it..

This is not true..
The world looks to America because it is the strongest..
If the American economy is in good health then the world economy is..

People in the US need to set an example and take the lead and encourage people to respect its principles and ideals..
Gung ho USA USA USA type rantings wont work...

U guys dont know how good u have it..
Come and live in Brazil for a while..

Again respect to the USA..

Peace and Love to all...

[boaz]

^ peace and love from the u.s. of a., too. :smokin: and welcome to can com. :hippy: :D i was living in los angeles when y'all won the world cup there in the Rose Bowl, man what a party all over town. :rasta:

[dossantos]

Would say it was special..
Brazilians are good at 1 thing..
Party... Samba...

I started out in Ireland but wandered lonely as a cloud and parked myself here for a while...

Peace and Love...

[kathaksung]

McCain: Japanese Hanged For Waterboarding

(AP) Republican presidential candidate John McCain reminded people Thursday that some Japanese were tried and hanged for torturing American prisoners during World War II with techniques that included waterboarding.

"There should be little doubt from American history that we consider that as torture otherwise we wouldn't have tried and convicted Japanese for doing that same thing to Americans," McCain said during a news conference.

McCain: Japanese Hanged For Waterboarding - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/politics/main3554687.shtml)

[overgrowthegovt]

I'm very glad he's doing this, but at the same time, it's good to be aware of the shameless public relations exercise.

Prosecuting a few torturers after Bush would be like Hitler's successor posing with his arms around some Jewish orphans. Probably more PR than heartfelt, undertaken to demonize the previous administration (however justified) and to make him look like the angelic saviour.

[justanotherbozo]

I'm very glad he's doing this, but at the same time, it's good to be aware of the shameless public relations exercise.

Prosecuting a few torturers after Bush would be like Hitler's successor posing with his arms around some Jewish orphans. Probably more PR than heartfelt, undertaken to demonize the previous administration (however justified) and to make him look like the angelic saviour.

that's the whole point, to distract you on the one hand with this witch hunt
while the other hand robs you blind.

[kathaksung]

Likely there were more death. Do you think the rights group know them all?

Quote, "US interrogators may have killed dozens, human rights researcher and rights group say

By John Byrne

Published: May 6, 2009


United States interrogators killed nearly four dozen detainees during or after their interrogations, according a report published by a human rights researcher based on a Human Rights First report and followup investigations.

In all, 98 detainees have died while in US hands. Thirty-four homicides have been identified, with at least eight detainees - and as many as 12 - having been tortured to death, according to a 2006 Human Rights First report that underwrites the researcher’s posting. The causes of 48 more deaths remain uncertain.

The researcher, John Sifton, worked for five years for Human Rights Watch. In a posting Tuesday, he documents myriad cases of detainees who died at the hands of their US interrogators. Some of the instances he cites are graphic.

Most of those taken captive were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq. They include at least one Afghani soldier, Jamal Naseer, who was mistakenly arrested in 2004. “Those arrested with Naseer later said that during interrogations U.S. personnel punched and kicked them, hung them upside down, and hit them with sticks or cables,” Sifton writes. “Some said they were doused with cold water and forced to lie in the snow. Nasser collapsed about two weeks after the arrest, complaining of stomach pain, probably an internal hemorrhage.”

Raw Story » US interrogators may have killed dozens, human rights researcher and rights group say (http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/05/06/us-interrogators-killed-dozens-human-rights-researcher-and-rights-group-say/)

[higher4hockey]

Likely there were more death. Do you think the rights group know them all?

Quote, "US interrogators may have killed dozens, human rights researcher and rights group say

By John Byrne

Published: May 6, 2009


United States interrogators killed nearly four dozen detainees during or after their interrogations, according a report published by a human rights researcher based on a Human Rights First report and followup investigations.

In all, 98 detainees have died while in US hands. Thirty-four homicides have been identified, with at least eight detainees - and as many as 12 - having been tortured to death, according to a 2006 Human Rights First report that underwrites the researcherâ??s posting. The causes of 48 more deaths remain uncertain.

The researcher, John Sifton, worked for five years for Human Rights Watch. In a posting Tuesday, he documents myriad cases of detainees who died at the hands of their US interrogators. Some of the instances he cites are graphic.

Most of those taken captive were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq. They include at least one Afghani soldier, Jamal Naseer, who was mistakenly arrested in 2004. â??Those arrested with Naseer later said that during interrogations U.S. personnel punched and kicked them, hung them upside down, and hit them with sticks or cables,â?� Sifton writes. â??Some said they were doused with cold water and forced to lie in the snow. Nasser collapsed about two weeks after the arrest, complaining of stomach pain, probably an internal hemorrhage.â?�

Raw Story » US interrogators may have killed dozens, human rights researcher and rights group say (http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/05/06/us-interrogators-killed-dozens-human-rights-researcher-and-rights-group-say/)



so?

[justanotherbozo]

Likely there were more death. Do you think the rights group know them all?

Quote, "US interrogators may have killed dozens, human rights researcher and rights group say

By John Byrne

Published: May 6, 2009


United States interrogators killed nearly four dozen detainees during or after their interrogations, according a report published by a human rights researcher based on a Human Rights First report and followup investigations.

In all, 98 detainees have died while in US hands. Thirty-four homicides have been identified, with at least eight detainees - and as many as 12 - having been tortured to death, according to a 2006 Human Rights First report that underwrites the researcherâ??s posting. The causes of 48 more deaths remain uncertain.

The researcher, John Sifton, worked for five years for Human Rights Watch. In a posting Tuesday, he documents myriad cases of detainees who died at the hands of their US interrogators. Some of the instances he cites are graphic.

Most of those taken captive were killed in Afghanistan and Iraq. They include at least one Afghani soldier, Jamal Naseer, who was mistakenly arrested in 2004. â??Those arrested with Naseer later said that during interrogations U.S. personnel punched and kicked them, hung them upside down, and hit them with sticks or cables,â?� Sifton writes. â??Some said they were doused with cold water and forced to lie in the snow. Nasser collapsed about two weeks after the arrest, complaining of stomach pain, probably an internal hemorrhage.â?�

Raw Story » US interrogators may have killed dozens, human rights researcher and rights group say (http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/05/06/us-interrogators-killed-dozens-human-rights-researcher-and-rights-group-say/)

so, just 'cause some reporter says it, it's gospel? shit man, they'll write anything.

not only that but do you think you'd really give a shit how many died if your
wife or your mother or your son or daughter had died on 9\11?

nah, i say, better them than us!

[dossantos]

so, just 'cause some reporter says it, it's gospel? shit man, they'll write anything.

not only that but do you think you'd really give a shit how many died if your
wife or your mother or your son or daughter had died on 9\11?

nah, i say, better them than us!

Will u please stop using 911 to justify slaughtering 100 times more in the middle east...
911 was down to a couple of hundred extremist lunatics who took it upon themselves to hit back after years of american interference in the middle east..
Bin laden is not the leader of islam.
He is nothing but an extremist trained and armed by the US when ye were on the same side in Afghan..
Bin laden is nothing.. A nobody.. An old man who lives in a cave..
Why didnt the US send in some Navy Seals/ Rangers to take him out..
Why did the US have to totally over react and start 2 wars ?
Revenge..
The wars were started to deflect from the real problem...
The US goverment was embarressed..
The american public was shocked and started baying for blood..

Did the US really really need 2 more wars to stick on its CV??????

Peace and Love to all...

[MPLSweedman]

send nancy pelosi to jail first she let the shit go for YEARS and did nothing!!

[justanotherbozo]

Will u please stop using 911 to justify slaughtering 100 times more in the middle east...
911 was down to a couple of hundred extremist lunatics who took it upon themselves to hit back after years of american interference in the middle east..
Bin laden is not the leader of islam.
He is nothing but an extremist trained and armed by the US when ye were on the same side in Afghan..
Bin laden is nothing.. A nobody.. An old man who lives in a cave..
Why didnt the US send in some Navy Seals/ Rangers to take him out..
Why did the US have to totally over react and start 2 wars ?
Revenge..
The wars were started to deflect from the real problem...
The US goverment was embarressed..
The american public was shocked and started baying for blood..

Did the US really really need 2 more wars to stick on its CV??????

Peace and Love to all...



we keep the kool-aid on the left!

[dossantos]

we keep the kool-aid on the left!

???????????

Peace and Love to all...

[Dreadscale]

Hi All !!




Did the US really really need 2 more wars to stick on its CV??????


I'm lost here. What is a CV?


send nancy pelosi to jail first she let the shit go for YEARS and did nothing!!
A pretty bold statement!!
I actually saw the press conference where she stated, Congress was lied to and she was not informed of torture already being used.

That being said!!
I feel just as safe today as I did when the last administration was in office.
If we are going to pursue prosecution for torture "we" need all the information. WE as in the Judicial Branch not WE the public.

I believe there should be very few exemptions from prosecution, I personally don't know where to draw this line.
If a person is acting on orders given to them by a superior, maybe, they should be exempt.
Anyone giving the orders to torture should be held accountable.
Anyone with the knowledge of illegal operations, and the power to do something about it should be held accountable, if they did nothing to stop it.

This should to apply to ALL branches of government, and I do believe bad legal advice is grounds for removal of seated judges also.
If it is found that anyone participated in illegal actions they should have their day in court.
Lets get it done and move on!!

Someone implied earlier that Obama is using this for a distraction!
I believe this is way off base! Obama shouldn't have to deal with this!
We shouldn't even have to mention torture, this is all just crazy!!

The fact is; We do have to deal with it!!!
Not because Obama wants to distract us, but because the previous administration was so messed up we can't ignore it!!
We as a people decided on election day enough is enough!! Not me, the COUNTRY, the voters, you and me!!!
If you didn't get the representation in Washington you wanted, TUFF NOOGIES, the majority did. Both popular and electoral, but that is another topic!

If you are relying on the information we are getting from the media, we will never get at the truth!
FOX NEWS, MSNBC, or CNN they all their own agenda to pursue, MONEY and RATINGS.

Just Sayin :hippy:

Can we ALL agree on one thing? NOONE IS ABOVE THE LAW!!


Side Note!!
Watch out for the MMJ you are using, the extreme potency is now averaged at 10.1% THC.
YouTube - Scientists Research - Dangers Of Highly Potent Pot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZpmR5WZndk)
:S5:

[dossantos]

Originally Posted by dossantos
Did the US really really need 2 more wars to stick on its CV??????


I'm lost here. What is a CV?
Curriculum Vitae = resume...

Totally agree that no one is above the law...

Peace and Love to all....:)

[delusionsofNORMALity]

I actually saw the press conference where she stated, Congress was lied to and she was not informed of torture already being used.and we are to believe her because......? now that all the campaign rhetoric and partisan squabbling has come back to haunt her, what choice does she have but to lie, lie, lie.


Someone implied earlier that Obama is using this for a distraction!
I believe this is way off base! Obama shouldn't have to deal with this!
We shouldn't even have to mention torture, this is all just crazy!!

The fact is; We do have to deal with it!!!
Not because Obama wants to distract us, but because the previous administration was so messed up we can't ignore it!!each new administration must unravel the failures of its predecessor. just as baby bush was saddled with clinton's haphazard attitude toward the defense of the country and his spendthrift ways, obama must deal with bush and company's ham handed attempts at protecting us from the very real threats of today's world and the general ignorance of our former president.

instead of realizing that we are redefining the term torture (putting an old name on a different technique) and abolishing it now so that we can move on in a more humane fashion, our current leaders are distracting us by making political hay over where the blame can be laid for these desperate attempts at hurrying an end to an unpopular conflict. yes, it is a distraction. while our economy falls further and further into the crapper and a corrupt and inefficient bureaucracy claims more and more control over our dwindling free market, what better sideshow than putting political enemies on trial to divert the attention of the masses.

the pendulum continues to swing and the next in line will have to cope with brak's inexperience and socialist leanings. it's a cycle we can't break unless the people are willing to look beyond their own petty desires and the useless rhetoric of partisan politics.


We as a people decided on election day enough is enough!! Not me, the COUNTRY, the voters, you and me!!!this isn't the first time the american people have been fooled. each election brings with it a new batch of liars and thieves. greedy to share in the wealth of the "american dream" and eager for some "change" they can believe in, the masses have chosen to betray the very ideals that afforded that wealth and allowed the freedom of change. they have proven themselves willing to sacrifice the individual for the illusory good of the many and have forgotten that it was the protection of the free will of the individual that given us the chance at the standard of living they all seem to be clambering to share in without putting in the effort needed to attain it.


If you are relying on the information we are getting from the media, we will never get at the truth!
FOX NEWS, MSNBC, or CNN they all their own agenda to pursue, MONEY and RATINGS.our only chance to sift any truth from the mountain of lies we are inundated with is to watch the actions of our leaders and see if they match up with the promises they so easily gave us. this latest batch has yet to live up to their rhetoric. we will never know the details of their back room dealings, but we can easily see that their promises of honesty and transparency have come to naught. their vaunted transparency seems only to apply to the failings of their opposition and that honesty is belied by the hemming and hawing that accompanies each revelation of their false claims and their wholesale sellout of the american ideal.

[Dreadscale]

Hi All !!!:thumbsup:


and we are to believe her because......? now that all the campaign rhetoric and partisan squabbling has come back to haunt her, what choice does she have but to lie, lie, lie.

each new administration must unravel the failures of its predecessor. just as baby bush was saddled with clinton's haphazard attitude toward the defense of the country and his spendthrift ways, obama must deal with bush and company's ham handed attempts at protecting us from the very real threats of today's world and the general ignorance of our former president.

instead of realizing that we are redefining the term torture (putting an old name on a different technique) and abolishing it now so that we can move on in a more humane fashion, our current leaders are distracting us by making political hay over where the blame can be laid for these desperate attempts at hurrying an end to an unpopular conflict. yes, it is a distraction. while our economy falls further and further into the crapper and a corrupt and inefficient bureaucracy claims more and more control over our dwindling free market, what better sideshow than putting political enemies on trial to divert the attention of the masses.

the pendulum continues to swing and the next in line will have to cope with brak's inexperience and socialist leanings. it's a cycle we can't break unless the people are willing to look beyond their own petty desires and the useless rhetoric of partisan politics.

this isn't the first time the american people have been fooled. each election brings with it a new batch of liars and thieves. greedy to share in the wealth of the "american dream" and eager for some "change" they can believe in, the masses have chosen to betray the very ideals that afforded that wealth and allowed the freedom of change. they have proven themselves willing to sacrifice the individual for the illusory good of the many and have forgotten that it was the protection of the free will of the individual that given us the chance at the standard of living they all seem to be clambering to share in without putting in the effort needed to attain it.

our only chance to sift any truth from the mountain of lies we are inundated with is to watch the actions of our leaders and see if they match up with the promises they so easily gave us. this latest batch has yet to live up to their rhetoric. we will never know the details of their back room dealings, but we can easily see that their promises of honesty and transparency have come to naught. their vaunted transparency seems only to apply to the failings of their opposition and that honesty is belied by the hemming and hawing that accompanies each revelation of their false claims and their wholesale sellout of the american ideal.


GREAT POST!!!!

What do you think? Is anyone above the LAW?


:hippy:

[McDanger]

Will u please stop using 911 to justify slaughtering 100 times more in the middle east...
911 was down to a couple of hundred extremist lunatics who took it upon themselves to hit back after years of american interference in the middle east..
Bin laden is not the leader of islam.
He is nothing but an extremist trained and armed by the US when ye were on the same side in Afghan..
Bin laden is nothing.. A nobody.. An old man who lives in a cave..
Why didnt the US send in some Navy Seals/ Rangers to take him out..
Why did the US have to totally over react and start 2 wars ?
Revenge..
The wars were started to deflect from the real problem...
The US goverment was embarressed..
The american public was shocked and started baying for blood..

Did the US really really need 2 more wars to stick on its CV??????

Peace and Love to all...

the taliban were given an ultimatum to get rid of aq . I guess they didn't take us seriously. too fucking bad for them.
As for Iraq, if the pussies at the UN would do thier job we wouldn't have to. There were 14 resolutions against Iraq stating they would be attacked if broken, yet somehow a 15th was supposed to work?:cool:

[yokinazu]

Why didnt the US send in some Navy Seals/ Rangers to take him out..


i would like to point out that pat tilman was a ranger so we have had rangers in afgahnastan lookin for bin ladin for a while now.
it aint just as easy as send in the seals or any special forces unit, real life is nothin like television

[overgrowthegovt]

uhh...flowers and sunshine is all i took from that.


ive been to iraq, ive dealt with the enemies of the US firsthand. dont give me that moral highground shit, when shit hits the fan and we need to know something fast, give me a pair of pliers and a blow torch and we'll get some answers out of haj. war sucks. its not for cry babies and soft ass lefties. bad things happen, good people die, and mofos get tortured. thats the way it is, and thats the way its probably always going to be.

i saw a bumper sticker on a vets car once that said: if you havent been to iraq or afghanistan, then shut the fuck up.

An equivocal bumper sticker that attempts to dismiss all debate in an assertion of superiority proves fuck all. The enemies of the U.S. are the idiots who self-righteously increase the cycle of violence that they or the next generation can only come to rue. It appears that, in general, if you're in the army you're either avoiding prison or too much of a mule to do anything useful other than provide cannon fodder, or a hypnotized conformist defending Daddy's values. I may be a cry baby and a soft ass leftie, in which case war is not for me (thank God), but I must say that peace as a philosophical concept is not for the kids who played with too many GI Joes and never grew the fuck up.

I'm sorry, but this kind of thinking is dangerous and will keep the bombs detonating until doomsday. When you said "so?" in your later reply, that was possibly the most disgusting thing I've read in ages. Why does the U.S. have enemies, anyway? Innocent victims, right?

I know I'm wasting my time here, and that anything I say will be instantly dismissed. I guess I have to make at least a feeble attempt to defend humanity.

[justanotherbozo]

An equivocal bumper sticker that attempts to dismiss all debate in an assertion of superiority proves fuck all. The enemies of the U.S. are the idiots who self-righteously increase the cycle of violence that they or the next generation can only come to rue. It appears that, in general, if you're in the army you're either avoiding prison or too much of a mule to do anything useful other than provide cannon fodder, or a hypnotized conformist defending Daddy's values. I may be a cry baby and a soft ass leftie, in which case war is not for me (thank God), but I must say that peace as a philosophical concept is not for the kids who played with too many GI Joes and never grew the fuck up.

I'm sorry, but this kind of thinking is dangerous and will keep the bombs detonating until doomsday. When you said "so?" in your later reply, that was possibly the most disgusting thing I've read in ages. Why does the U.S. have enemies, anyway? Innocent victims, right?

I know I'm wasting my time here, and that anything I say will be instantly dismissed. I guess I have to make at least a feeble attempt to defend humanity.

did it ever occur to you that your way of thinkin' is why innocent people are
still dieing in IED explosions? and they want nuclear materials.

[higher4hockey]

An equivocal bumper sticker that attempts to dismiss all debate in an assertion of superiority proves fuck all. The enemies of the U.S. are the idiots who self-righteously increase the cycle of violence that they or the next generation can only come to rue. It appears that, in general, if you're in the army you're either avoiding prison or too much of a mule to do anything useful other than provide cannon fodder, or a hypnotized conformist defending Daddy's values. I may be a cry baby and a soft ass leftie, in which case war is not for me (thank God), but I must say that peace as a philosophical concept is not for the kids who played with too many GI Joes and never grew the fuck up.

I'm sorry, but this kind of thinking is dangerous and will keep the bombs detonating until doomsday. When you said "so?" in your later reply, that was possibly the most disgusting thing I've read in ages. Why does the U.S. have enemies, anyway? Innocent victims, right?

I know I'm wasting my time here, and that anything I say will be instantly dismissed. I guess I have to make at least a feeble attempt to defend humanity.


were you in iraq or afghanistan ? ;)

[psychocat]

All those who oppose the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan are lefty ,tree hugging pacifists.

MMmmmmmmmmm !

That really is a million miles from the truth.
I am a border line sociopath who believes in the death penalty for rapists murderers and child molesters.
I am also an ex-soldier who loves the chance to prove my position as natures top predator.

Kinda blows the whole stereotype right out of the water don't ya think. :thumbsup:

However this is all getting way off topic as the simple question is "Should those responsible for torturing and allowing it to happen face justice"?
I say YES!

[higher4hockey]

border line sociopath...would you care to elaborate on that one ?

[yokinazu]

i would like to first say that i too was a soldier, sevred in iraq with the 3rd I.D. and i too have been against this war from the start. but i also realize we just cant up and leave.

but the whole torture issue is a very sticky issue. i dont beleive in torture myself but torture is just like terrorism in the fact that its all in perspective. some will argue that waterboarding is not torture because it does not cause the loss of life or limb does not cause an undue amount of pain or permant physical damage. but others will argue that it is torture because of the mental stress cause by the action.

i think that yes if you torture or give the order to torture then yes you should be prosecuted but first we have to define what is and what is not torture.

so here is a challange for you all: define torture and what is acceptable means of interogation.

[higher4hockey]

thought you guys might like this. :jointsmile: well some of you might like it. others will probably just shake their heads.

[justanotherbozo]

thought you guys might like this. :jointsmile: well some of you might like it. others will probably just shake their heads.

well, i like it bro so thanks!

[psychocat]

i would like to first say that i too was a soldier, sevred in iraq with the 3rd I.D. and i too have been against this war from the start. but i also realize we just cant up and leave.

but the whole torture issue is a very sticky issue. i dont beleive in torture myself but torture is just like terrorism in the fact that its all in perspective. some will argue that waterboarding is not torture because it does not cause the loss of life or limb does not cause an undue amount of pain or permant physical damage. but others will argue that it is torture because of the mental stress cause by the action.

i think that yes if you torture or give the order to torture then yes you should be prosecuted but first we have to define what is and what is not torture.

so here is a challange for you all: define torture and what is acceptable means of interogation.

The US military classifies waterboarding as torture , as does the UN. :thumbsup:

BTW the patriot or terrorist bullshit has sweet fuck all to do with this issue and is a simple remark made by simple people in order to avoid answering the real question. IMO.

[higher4hockey]

you could have just shaken your head.....

sheesh. :jointsmile:

[justanotherbozo]

The US military classifies waterboarding as torture , as does the UN. :thumbsup:

BTW the patriot or terrorist bullshit has sweet fuck all to do with this issue and is a simple remark made by simple people in order to avoid answering the real question. IMO.

...

[MPLSweedman]

probably the weakest torture ive ever heard of...

ask john mccain about torture, when they break your limbs every other day and rip your fingernails off

wimpy libs

maybe we should just give these terrorist inmates direcTV and plasma screens down there so they can blow up more buildings

these people you are defending are the lowest of the low, people that if given the opportunity would wipe your family off this earth, remember that

[kathaksung]

Waterboarding as Torture in U.S. Law

The former Bush/Cheney administration and its apologists in the media continue to claim that it is an open question as to whether “waterboarding” (immobilizing a person, pouring water over his/her face and breathing passages, suffocating him/her and leading him/her to believe he/she will die) is torture and forbidden in U.S. law. The question is ridiculous.

Waterboarding (as it is now called) is one of the oldest known forms of torture. In the 1500s it was used in the Spanish Inquisition.

In 1898, an American soldier (Captain Edwin F. Glenn) used the technique (then called the “water cure”) on a prisoner captured in the Philippines during the Spanish-American War. When reported, Americans were shocked and protests led to Elihu Root, U.S. Secretary of War (now called Secretary of Defense) ordered Glenn court-martialed in 1902 and imprisoned. A general under whose command this and other tortures occurred was court-martialed and removed from the army.

During WWII, both the Gestapo and some Japanese soldiers used waterboarding as a form of torture. The Japanese were tried after the war and at least one hung by U.S. forces for waterboarding U.S. Airman Chase J. Nielsen.

Waterboarding was declared illegal by U.S. generals during the Vietnam War. When a journalist photgraphed an American soldier helping two South Vietnamese soldiers waterboard a captured North Vietnames soldier, and published in the Washington Post in 1968, it caused outrage across the United States. The soldier was court-martialed and dishonorably discharged from the U.S. army.

In 1983, Texas sheriff James Parker was sentenced to ten years in prison and his deputies to four years apiece for waterboarding prisoners. When his case came up for clemency years later, then Gov. George W. Bush refused to pardon Sheriff Parker, specifically stating that no one is above the law.

In 1988, U.S. President Ronald Reagan signed the United Nations Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment, or Punishment of 1984. It was ratified by the U.S. Senate in 1994. Since the U.S. Constitution classifies all treaties that the U.S. signs and ratifies as sharing the Constitution’s status as “highest law of the land,” then the U.S. must follow the Convention Against Torture’s provisions, including those which demand prosecution of those who authorize and those who implement torture. It also forbids the U.S. to ship people to other countries that practice torture (”rendition”) and the Bush administration was guilty of that, also.

The reluctance of the Obama administration to try those responsible is rooted in several factors:

Such trials would be highly controversial. The Washington Post published a poll today showing that Americans are about evenly divided over whether or not to have such trials. Although law enforcement is not decided by popularity, the Obama administration has to pass many pieces of legislation that will take all the public support he can muster.

The Republicans have already hinted that if the Obama administration tries anyone in the Bush administration, they will consider it “engaging in criminalizing policy differences” and they will investigate Democratic administrations when they get back in power.

But the consequences of refusing to try these cases could be even worse:

Members of the Bush administration could be indicted by the International Criminal Court or by the courts of other nations under the “global jurisdiction” where human rights violations are concerned. This would put the Obama administration in the awkward position of either arresting and extraditing former Bush officials, including, maybe the former president himself or of defying international law. If nothing else came of that, it would, at the very least, impede Obama’s attempts to rebuild America’s alliances abroad. It also undermines his attempts to re-set our relations with the Muslim world.

Failing to prosecute violaters of human rights, no matter how highly placed, invites human rights abuses on Americans traveling abroad, whether civilian or military.

If members of the Bush administration travel abroad, they could be arrested and prosecuted by others with potential for a huge international incident.

Failure to prosecute violaters of human rights in the Bush administration makes it likely that a future administration will repeat these practices. In fact, by calling them “policy differences” GOP torture apologists are already hinting that they will restart torture when their party wins the White House, again. And their horror at the release of the torture memos as “exposing to our enemies the limits of American practices” seem to indicate they will try other practices in their place (electric shock to the genitals? bamboo shoots under fingernails? ).

Not too long ago (before 11 Sept. 2001), this was not controversial. No one argued for the U.S. using torturing. Nor did anyone argue that “enhanced interrogation techniques” were not really torture. This was not a liberal vs. conservative, left vs. right, or Democratic vs. Republican issue. So, the current debate means that America has lost its way morally. To that extent, the use of these torture techniques by the Bush administration and the fact that Americans find the use of torture or prosecution of torturers controversial, means that the terrorists have won-at least in part. Trying torturers, no matter who they are, is necessary for us to regain some degree of moral clarity.

Waterboarding as Torture in U.S. Law « Levellers (http://levellers.wordpress.com/2009/04/26/waterboarding-as-torture-in-us-law/)

[Trip06]

Speak for yourself. I smoke weed daily but if I discovered a member of a terrorist organization who was planning some terrorist act, I would happily torture them in order to get the needed information to protect American lives.

Obama is the fucking criminal here for giving CIA secrets away to the world! How exactly does that benefit our national security? I see nothing wrong with torturing our enemies in order to gain the knowledge to protect ourselves from said enemies.

I suppose we should just hand em a joint, drop to our knees and start sucking their dick until they give us the information we need... That is far more humane, except for one small problem, it wouldn't work.



I hope you realise the torture goes way behing this whole waterboarding thing they ONLY talk about. There is admitted and physical proven picture evidence that we arent being a lowed to see but is FACT and the government admited that they raped and tortured the daughters and sons and wives of the "terrorists" right in front of them/ beat them all day long for days on end/ hung them from ceilings for hours with there hands tied. And what is funny is the guys who supposedly crashed the planes into the towers are walking free and alive.

If you believe in torture than your no different from "them"

Theres a thing called the geneva convention you ever heard of that? Maybe we should just stop using full metal jackets then, Maybe we should use bioweapons. What kind of a world do you think were gonna live in when our morals go out the roof? What system of justice is that?

[justanotherbozo]

Speak for yourself. I smoke weed daily but if I discovered a member of a terrorist organization who was planning some terrorist act, I would happily torture them in order to get the needed information to protect American lives.

Obama is the fucking criminal here for giving CIA secrets away to the world! How exactly does that benefit our national security? I see nothing wrong with torturing our enemies in order to gain the knowledge to protect ourselves from said enemies.

I suppose we should just hand em a joint, drop to our knees and start sucking their dick until they give us the information we need... That is far more humane, except for one small problem, it wouldn't work.




I hope you realise the torture goes way behing this whole waterboarding thing they ONLY talk about. There is admitted and physical proven picture evidence that we arent being a lowed to see but is FACT and the government admited that they raped and tortured the daughters and sons and wives of the "terrorists" right in front of them/ beat them all day long for days on end/ hung them from ceilings for hours with there hands tied. And what is funny is the guys who supposedly crashed the planes into the towers are walking free and alive.

this is total bullshit man, you really think the Democrats wouldn't use that evidence to
fry Bush and Cheney with if it really existed as you insist?
it's just complete hogwash!


If you believe in torture than your no different from "them"

Theres a thing called the geneva convention you ever heard of that?
if you were familiar with the Geneva convention, you'd know that it is for the fair treatment
of UNIFORMED soldiers in a declared conflict and not to protect terrorists willing to
cut your frikkin' head off!
jeez, i can't believe i have to explain this shit!


Maybe we should just stop using full metal jackets then, Maybe we should use bioweapons. What kind of a world do you think were gonna live in when our morals go out the roof? What system of justice is that?

a world run by the Ayatollah if we follow your way of thinking!

why don't you just go back to the Mosque and build some more IED's!

[Trip06]

If you knew anything its that When we throw out our morals and belief in our justice system of a trial by jury and start torturing people guilty or not we lower ourselfs to their level.

[gypski]

Torturers MAY face prosecution, but marijuana users WILL face prosecution. That in and of itself shows the highest level of hypocracy. And Barry right now is a supreme hypocrite. If he smoked without detrimental effects, what's his fucking problem? :wtf:

[justanotherbozo]

Torturers MAY face prosecution, but marijuana users WILL face prosecution. That in and of itself shows the highest level of hypocracy. And Barry right now is a supreme hypocrite. If he smoked without detrimental effects, what's his fucking problem? :wtf:

be careful how you speak about the new Emperor! people here will think you a
racist, or a warmonger! ...rather than a patriot! ...see ya at a tea party!

[Trip06]

"obama" said he was closeing gauntanomo bay prison, OH CLAP CLAP CALP! Guess what american people Theres 100 more black ops prisons we are opperating over seas torture is going on. caci, titan, blackwater. All were contracted to do things like information gathering and security jobs. And look caci was nothing more than a company that suplies linguists that spoke arabic to go over sees and question detainiees. They were under there contract to have minimal suprevision. AND What happened They tied groups of innocent iraq mens penis's together and pushed one down, they beat them all day, they made dogs bite them. they raped women, they sodomised kids, They hung people from there hands all day and tied people together naked in sexual positions. JUST LOOK ONLINE YOU CAN FIND 1000's OF PICTURES OF THESE PEOPLE SMILING NEXT TO THERE "WORK OF ART" THIS IS NOT A SMALL INCODENT EITHER!!!! THEY HAVE GOT NO PUNISHMENT EXCEPT BEING FIRED FROM THERE JOB!!!! THEY WOULD GO OUT IN THE CITY AND SNATCH WOMEN AND TELL THEM THEY WERE GOING TO RAPE THEM IF THEY DIDNT TELL THEM WHERE THE TERRORIST WERE!!! Watch all the viedos on youtube of US MARINES SHOOTING INNOCENT PEOPLE AND screaming yeah get it get some. IM not saying all of them are bad but THIS SHIT IS WAAAYYAYAYYAYAYAYYA OUT OF HAND!!!!!!

[justanotherbozo]

"obama" said he was closeing gauntanomo bay prison, OH CLAP CLAP CALP! Guess what american people Theres 100 more black ops prisons we are opperating over seas torture is going on. caci, titan, blackwater. All were contracted to do things like information gathering and security jobs. And look caci was nothing more than a company that suplies linguists that spoke arabic to go over sees and question detainiees. They were under there contract to have minimal suprevision. AND What happened They tied groups of innocent iraq mens penis's together and pushed one down, they beat them all day, they made dogs bite them. they raped women, they sodomised kids, They hung people from there hands all day and tied people together naked in sexual positions. JUST LOOK ONLINE YOU CAN FIND 1000's OF PICTURES OF THESE PEOPLE SMILING NEXT TO THERE "WORK OF ART" THIS IS NOT A SMALL INCODENT EITHER!!!! THEY HAVE GOT NO PUNISHMENT EXCEPT BEING FIRED FROM THERE JOB!!!! THEY WOULD GO OUT IN THE CITY AND SNATCH WOMEN AND TELL THEM THEY WERE GOING TO RAPE THEM IF THEY DIDNT TELL THEM WHERE THE TERRORIST WERE!!! Watch all the viedos on youtube of US MARINES SHOOTING INNOCENT PEOPLE AND screaming yeah get it get some. IM not saying all of them are bad but THIS SHIT IS WAAAYYAYAYYAYAYAYYA OUT OF HAND!!!!!!


so maybe we should just start cutting their frikkin' heads off! ...or start recruiting
guys nutty enough to strap a bomb to there ass and send them into a few mosques!

frankly, i think waterboarding is a bit more humane than that!

get a frikkin' clue man!

[Trip06]

"get a clue" Ok let me inlighten you You say we should cut of there heads and suicide bomb them. Ok we should to the actual "terrorists". You are so blind you missed my point, I guess you think every iraqi is a terrorist then. Thats why All these people who have been interviewed that have been let loose told about the stories of the insides of these detainee camps. Mere suspiscion alone got 1000's of innocent people beat and tortured. LET me ask you this wise guy How come the Terrorist that "planned the WTC attack still havent been to court?" Must be no evidence to show huh...Hmm guess thats why Obama is passing that swift no court trial death penalty option for those guys huh. "get a clue" Haha I got a clue its you who are still blind. Think about it MINOR SUPERVISION The contractors go over there There not loyal to the government there loyal to there paycheck. And The Proof is out there, and it dosnt make the mainstream news? hmm thats weird. And you still think the terrorists knocked down the towers huh? Is that why they found massive ammounts of nanothermite in the liquid pools of molten metal still burning 27 days after the collapse? Can I enlithen you, Jet fuel dosnt get NEARLY hot enouf to melt steel gurters and stay burning for 27 days latter. If that were the case airplanes wouldnt fly would they. second Thermite is a incindendary substance that isnt part of building or airplane make up. Third its not on the mainstream media???HMMM Oh and one more thing 700 structional engineers are rallying on behalf that building floors dont pancake and fall at free fall speed like that. Again mainstream media???? WHAT HAPPEND TO BUILDING 7?? It collapsed the same way and no plane hit it!!!! AND THEY HAVE NO OFFICAL RECORD OR ANYTHING ABOUT A DEMOLITION!! THEY JUST DONT COVER IT. That quickly came off the news too. keep living in a false sence of security buddy.

[Trip06]

hate to burst your bubble but torture gives no valueable intel when its done on innocent people. 9/11 Inside job. Funny "your number 3 alqeida guy" is going free because there isnt any eveidence to prosecute him. WOW not any evidance at all NUMBER 3 GUY. imaginary terrorists-1 Bush/chenny/obama-0

[Trip06]

one more thing, The real terrorists are in our government, And now that we masked Sadam and his regime as the enemy, we went over there fucked everything up as bad as it was for the people living there, we made it worse(Its also good sadam is dead and his regime is gone) but on the basis now that so many iraq people are easily presuaded to pick up a rifle and plant bombs because of the majority of the missplaced bombs we dropped killing there families, the little if any resorces we limited, The general attiude and mear presence of gun weilding foreign forces. Im 100 percent sure that has something to do with it. Ever think that maybe whats left of these people might be fighting on behalf that we are evil? Maybe thats why they dont give a fuck about cutting our heads off and shit. We demonize them like they are sick evil people. It takes evil people to fake terror attacks. Now its just a big friggn mess and we are now beefing up afganistan and trying to get into Iran. Lots of money in manufactoring army gear. and lots of money in swine flue vaccines. Guess thats why chenny has his steak in both of those.

[justanotherbozo]

you're the expert!

[Trip06]

Im not claiming to be an expert I have just done lots of research. Most of the things ive read most people dont even see. Do any of the majority of people even hear about any of this stuff. Answer is no, because it barely graces the pages of the new york times and cnn(which are bought out anyway). All major net works and papers/media barely covers it much less makes it to local stations. And when ever anything against what the government does than people disagree with hits the media, and someone like me mentions it I become the one everyone wants to argue with and discredit as "wack". Because most people just dont want to have to deal with anything that might conflict or go against there morals or way of living. Most people just dont care or wanna hear it and thats sad. When the majority of good men/women do nothing or dont get involved, Evil prevails over the majority.

[kathaksung]

WASHINGTON (Reuters)

The Times said a 2005 Justice Department memorandum showed that Abu Zubaydah, the first prisoner questioned in the CIA's overseas detention program in August 2002, was waterboarded 83 times, although a former CIA officer had told news media he had been subjected to only 35 seconds underwater before talking.
The Justice Department memo said the simulated drowning technique was used on Mohammed 183 times in March 2003. The Times said some copies of the memos appeared to have the number of waterboardings redacted while others did not.

Sept. 11 planner waterboarded 183 times: report | U.S. | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE53H0DG20090420)

The purpose of torture

Zhubadh talked after 35 seconds. Why still being waterboarded 83 times? --CIA wanted some "desired words". What kind of "desired words"?

Mohammed was waterboarded 183 times in March 2003. -- Still remember the time to invade Iraq? March 21 2003.

The waterboarding used on Zhubadah and Mohammed was just on time Bush was going to start invade Iraq. They need some desired words to justify the war.

Now read the following comment, you know what the purpose for torture:




The Rachel Madow show (MSNBC) tonight interviewed Pulitzer prize winning author Ron Suskind (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Suskind>) who alleges that the Bush White House authorized torture, not to ward off future terrorist attacks in the U.S. like they claim, but to force lies out of suspects, connecting Saddam Hussein's Iraq with the 9/11/2001 attack! These "Confessions" would be used to justify the Iraq war.

[Gatekeeper777]

now his office is saying that they will adopt the "BUSH DOCTORN" to hold terrorist indefinately without trial and that demonstraiting is a low level for of terrorism He has a Jail cell ready for everyone!

[Trip06]

Ever watch the Obama deception? Im not saying everything Alex Jones is true but I would say 90 percent is.

[Gatekeeper777]

Ever watch the Obama deception? Im not saying everything Alex Jones is true but I would say 90 percent is.

I am a jones fan..... to the point I have mountain property,with food for 1 year canned and stored for 3 people.

[Islandborn]

I thought Obama was a forward looker? A post-partisan....post-racial kinda guy? Now investigate the CIA agents from a previous administration? For waterboarding some islamo-fascists? Those pussies sang like birds after the water got dumped down their nose.If they hadn't gleaned some good shit, Holder and Co. would release all the memos. Those agents should get little jugs of water medals for their uniforms.

[kathaksung]

To legalize the torture, government issued document in mid 2002. Then we saw Libi, Zhubadah, and Mohammed were tortured until March 2003 when Bush invaded Iraq. Obviously to force "desired words" from the victime to justify Iraq war.

Here is the story of how Powell used the "desired words" from torture to justify Iraq war.

Bush's 'Smoking Gun' Witness Found Dead
Global Research , May 13, 2009
IndictBushNow.org

A prisoner who was horribly tortured in 2002 until he agreed - at the demand of Bush torturers - to say that al-Qaeda was linked to Saddam Hussein is suddenly dead. Several weeks ago, Human Rights Watch investigators discovered the missing inmate and talked to him. He had been secretly transferred by the administration to a prison in Libya after having been held by the CIA both in secret â??black hole prisonsâ?� and in Egypt.

Under conditions of extreme torture, the prisoner, Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi, agreed in 2002 to supply the Bush-ordered interrogators what they sought as a political cover for Bushâ??s marketing of the pending war of aggression against Iraq. Mr. Libi agreed to tell them whatever they wanted in exchange for an end to the torture. The now famous Torture Memos providing legal cover for the torture were written at the same time starting in the summer of 2002.

Libiâ??s tortured and knowingly fabricated testimony was the source of information used by Bush to sell the war to the U.S. Senate, and the source for Colin Powellâ??s bogus and lying presentation to the United Nations in 2003.

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice are now running around saying that the torture regime â??protected the country from terrorist attack.â?� But the torture was used for the personal political goals of Bush and Cheney: namely, to sell their Iraq invasion to a very skeptical and disbelieving country.

Having been discovered by human rights investigators two weeks ago, Mr. Libiâ??s story coincided with the release of the Torture Memos and the growing clamor for criminal prosecutions of Bush officials.

His testimony is the smoking gun that would reveal that the torture regime was not for â??national securityâ?� but for the personal political aims of Bush and Cheney.

He was Exhibit A in the indictment that alleges that tortured confessions and the contrived legal justifications of torture set up by Justice Department lawyers in July/August 2002 were central to the launch of the war against Iraq.

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died and tens of thousands of U.S. service members have either been killed or badly wounded in a war that was based on lies fortified and promoted by the most sadistic torture.

Mr. Libi is suddenly dead. A Libyan â??newspaper sourceâ?� says that his death is an apparent suicide. His friends donâ??t believe that.

We are building a movement for the appointment of a Special Prosecutor. This is not a political choice. It is a legal imperative. Mr. Libiâ??s death must be the first business of the investigation. When other prisoners who had been kept at secret sites were sent to Guantanamo, the Bush administration and the CIA intentionally kept Mr. Libi from being part of that transfer. Mr. Libi was publicly stating that the Iraq-al-Qaeda links attributed to him from his torture sessions were not true.

â??Who was the beneficiaryâ?� from his death? Why was he spirited away by the Bush administration to hidden foreign prisons after he recanted his tortured testimony and revealed that he was forced to make false statements about Iraq

Bush's 'Smoking Gun' Witness Found Dead (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13613)

[Islandborn]

To legalize the torture, government issued document in mid 2002. Then we saw Libi, Zhubadah, and Mohammed were tortured until March 2003 when Bush invaded Iraq. Obviously to force "desired words" from the victime to justify Iraq war.

Here is the story of how Powell used the "desired words" from torture to justify Iraq war.

Bush's 'Smoking Gun' Witness Found Dead
Global Research , May 13, 2009
IndictBushNow.org

A prisoner who was horribly tortured in 2002 until he agreed - at the demand of Bush torturers - to say that al-Qaeda was linked to Saddam Hussein is suddenly dead. Several weeks ago, Human Rights Watch investigators discovered the missing inmate and talked to him. He had been secretly transferred by the administration to a prison in Libya after having been held by the CIA both in secret â??black hole prisonsâ?� and in Egypt.

Under conditions of extreme torture, the prisoner, Ibn al-Sheikh al-Libi, agreed in 2002 to supply the Bush-ordered interrogators what they sought as a political cover for Bushâ??s marketing of the pending war of aggression against Iraq. Mr. Libi agreed to tell them whatever they wanted in exchange for an end to the torture. The now famous Torture Memos providing legal cover for the torture were written at the same time starting in the summer of 2002.

Libiâ??s tortured and knowingly fabricated testimony was the source of information used by Bush to sell the war to the U.S. Senate, and the source for Colin Powellâ??s bogus and lying presentation to the United Nations in 2003.

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice are now running around saying that the torture regime â??protected the country from terrorist attack.â?� But the torture was used for the personal political goals of Bush and Cheney: namely, to sell their Iraq invasion to a very skeptical and disbelieving country.

Having been discovered by human rights investigators two weeks ago, Mr. Libiâ??s story coincided with the release of the Torture Memos and the growing clamor for criminal prosecutions of Bush officials.

His testimony is the smoking gun that would reveal that the torture regime was not for â??national securityâ?� but for the personal political aims of Bush and Cheney.

He was Exhibit A in the indictment that alleges that tortured confessions and the contrived legal justifications of torture set up by Justice Department lawyers in July/August 2002 were central to the launch of the war against Iraq.

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died and tens of thousands of U.S. service members have either been killed or badly wounded in a war that was based on lies fortified and promoted by the most sadistic torture.

Mr. Libi is suddenly dead. A Libyan â??newspaper sourceâ?� says that his death is an apparent suicide. His friends donâ??t believe that.

We are building a movement for the appointment of a Special Prosecutor. This is not a political choice. It is a legal imperative. Mr. Libiâ??s death must be the first business of the investigation. When other prisoners who had been kept at secret sites were sent to Guantanamo, the Bush administration and the CIA intentionally kept Mr. Libi from being part of that transfer. Mr. Libi was publicly stating that the Iraq-al-Qaeda links attributed to him from his torture sessions were not true.

â??Who was the beneficiaryâ?� from his death? Why was he spirited away by the Bush administration to hidden foreign prisons after he recanted his tortured testimony and revealed that he was forced to make false statements about Iraq

Bush's 'Smoking Gun' Witness Found Dead (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=13613)

who cares what happened to this Haji. Good riddance. There are still folks getting tortured at Black sites right now, and will be in 10 years. Khaled Sheik Mohammed was bumping his gums about getting a lawyer and never talking when he got picked up. After getting water dumped down his nose he sang like a broad. (like anyone would) If it didnt produce direct results, Obama should release all the files, but he won't. Those CIA guys should get medals.

[psychocat]

who cares what happened to this Haji. Good riddance. There are still folks getting tortured at Black sites right now, and will be in 10 years. Khaled Sheik Mohammed was bumping his gums about getting a lawyer and never talking when he got picked up. After getting water dumped down his nose he sang like a broad. (like anyone would) If it didnt produce direct results, Obama should release all the files, but he won't. Those CIA guys should get medals.

So what you're trying to tell us is that torture is justified even when we know people will say whatever we want if you use enough duress ?
How does the holier than thou attitude work if you're an hypocrite ?

The US agreed that waterboarding is torture and outlawed it's use and yet a few years down the line they themselves use it, how does that work ?
Suddenly it's not illegal because of some inane wordplay ?
I don't think so.

Only a retard would rely on the words of someone in fear for thier life , under enough coercion anyone would tell you precisely what you want to hear.

As for medals for the CIA , I think a bullet to the head would be more fitting.

[Islandborn]

I hear ya, im not saying Im right and your wrong. When it comes down to it, I just really dont care what happens to them. Is that terrible. In 3 years another President will come around with their lawyers and say it's not torture, it's the American way:). Ive seen it, looks shitty, real painful. I just dont care.

[psychocat]

I hear ya, im not saying Im right and your wrong. When it comes down to it, I just really dont care what happens to them. Is that terrible. In 3 years another President will come around with their lawyers and say it's not torture, it's the American way:). Ive seen it, looks shitty, real painful. I just dont care.

This statement beggars the question ,why bother getting into a debate about a subject that you yourself "don't care" about ? :D:wtf:

[Islandborn]

All I can do is keep hittin the Rigs making money for my fam, and avoid random trips to Pakistan and Afghanistan.

[psychocat]

All I can do is keep hittin the Rigs making money for my fam, and avoid random trips to Pakistan and Afghanistan.

They aren't high on my list of "Countries I must visit before I die" either. :D:thumbsup:
Good luck to you and yours man. :rastasmoke:

[Islandborn]

They wanna prosecute some nobody lawyers from the previous administration go ahead, boo-hoo. Zippity doo-da. In the end, it will continue. Continues now and will always continue all over the planet. Doesnt make it right at all. But im not gonna loose a wink of sleep knowing people somewhere will torture other people to protect my interests. I like that alot actually. Felt good to type actually.

[smello]

Its not right what was done,but saying it was right and then changing the rules after the fact isnt either-smello

[kathaksung]

Value for torture (April 09)

It's kind of funny to argue on such a moral topic. Morality can't be traded. But American enable it with a value.

Torture/waterboarding works. Yes, so are other illegal things. You will have proof that Rape/murder works too. And you can defend that FBI imposed very tight restrictions on the use of torture.....

Only please you don't accuse Hitler for Facist or Saddam for torture, because they just do same thing you approved.

And because some people who think they are the outlaw and can do what ever they want to and justify their crime by "it works" or "value".

That's why President Kennedy was assassinated, so was Rober Kennedy. And Dr. Martin L. King. Because for insiders, the victim are " subject to additional limits" and up to someone's "value".

We outlaw the torture because we don't want others to apply it on Americans. It kills Americans too, in miserable way. So if you legalize it, you also open a way to let others to do same thing on us.

Thanks for those who boast "patriot" admit of the two standards. Hitler, Stalin, Mao Tze Tung and Kin Jong Ir gave themseves the same right openly. That's totalitarian. Bush is justified by someone like Yoo, that's democratic. Is there any difference when they did same thing? In the name of value? Or you will find some excuse to say if it was done by "them", then it's savage, inhuman but when "I" did it, it's for the value of ... eh "pratriotism", "democracy"?