which is better? 24/0 or 18/6 lights

[fluid69]

which is better? 24/0 or 18/6? I've heard root growth is better on 18/6, but 24/0 seems to make more since. I was wondering if anyone had experience/knowlege on this subject?

[Bonesdowns25]

which is better? 24/0 or 18/6? I've heard root growth is better on 18/6, but 24/0 seems to make more since. I was wondering if anyone had experience/knowlege on this subject?

I couldn't tell you exactly which is the best but from doing a lot of reading around forums, it seems that most people go with 18/6. :)

[Mr. Clandestine]

Which is better? It depends on who you ask... :D

Some growers swear by the 24/0 schedule, saying that growth is more explosive, especially a couple weeks into veg. Others say that roots experience the most efficient growth during dark periods. I don't think either explanation is written in stone, but neither seem to be all that harmful to the plants.

I've tried both, and didn't really notice much difference either way. I prefer 18/6 now, if for no other reason than the undisputed fact that it saves me money on my electricity bill. :jointsmile:

[fluid69]

yeah I figured most people went with 18/6 to save money on the power bill or help with heat issues. I just wonder if it does help root production. I couldn't help but notice in your quote that stinky seemed to be indorsing 24/0, and we all know stinky's the man!

[Mr. Clandestine]

I couldn't help but notice in your quote that stinky seemed to be indorsing 24/0, and we all know stinky's the man!

Haha, that's so true... and so obvious... guess that's probably why I didn't even notice it. I'm oblivious to all things obvious. :jointsmile:

Oh, and Stinky's a lady. :thumbsup:

[fluid69]

well she's a gifted lady. truely a wealth of knowledge.

[filo6942]

I use 24/0, works great!

[Dutch Pimp]

well she's a gifted lady. truely a wealth of knowledge.
:thumbsup:

[fluid69]

sweet! your 3000th post was in honor of stinky on 420. hells yeah!

[Mr. Clandestine]

well she's a gifted lady. truely a wealth of knowledge.

My thoughts exactly. ;)

[fluid69]

the best way to test would be to start from clones and weigh root mass. the lights being the only variable.

[bigtopsfinn]

Some well-known cultivator(s) has endorsed the 20/4 schedule... I tried it and it seemed to work very well. :thumbsup:

[fluid69]

20/4 nice , split the difference. I wonder what the different breeders use? logic seems that since breeders hand select plants for their traits, that some strains may prefer one or the other. lighting schedules would be some good info for breeders to include with their seeds, atleast the indoor strains.

[Dutch Pimp]

which is better? 24/0 or 18/6? I've heard root growth is better on 18/6, but 24/0 seems to make more since. I was wondering if anyone had experience/knowlege on this subject?

There is no ..."better"...IMO. 18 hours is the standard minimun for vegging growth.

Choosing a light cycle that fits your grow room/cabinet/closet is the key.
The climate of your area is a factor. Hot climate?.. in the summertime?...18/6 is a nice break from the heat ..(the plants grow 'better')
Cold climate in the wintertime?...24/0 helps keep temps warm/stable 78-82 degrees....(plants grow 'better')

Anybody, understand what I am saying?...or am I just whistling dixie?

[grey1223]

Bottom line is anything from 16 to 24 hours of light is fine. The difference in growth rates are insignificant. If I were starting my first garden I'd probably go 24/0 on vegging hoping to get started sooner. But still no big deal. I just have this nagging thought in the back of my head that the plants like some dark time.

[Fencewalker]

I just have this nagging thought in the back of my head that the plants like some dark time.
Well, beat it to death with a bat. Cannabis is a C3 plant. It requires no dark time at all during veg. The more dark you give it, the slower it is growing. ;)

[oldmac]

There is no ..."better"...IMO. 18 hours is the standard minimun for vegging growth.

Choosing a light cycle that fits your grow room/cabinet/closet is the key.
The climate of your area is a factor. Hot climate?.. in the summertime?...18/6 is a nice break from the heat ..(the plants grow 'better')
Cold climate in the wintertime?...24/0 helps keep temps warm/stable 78-82 degrees....(plants grow 'better')

Anybody, understand what I am saying?...or am I just whistling dixie?

Dutch Pimp,

I understand exactly what you are saying....it really is a matter of what works best for the situation. No one time schedule is better. And climate concerns can drive that decision.

In a new grow set-up with a friend, we are dealing with a basement in a building with no heat. (temps as low as 40F) Running the mom and clone room at 24/0 was the only way to go to maintain temps in that room.

In my own basement set-up I use 18/6 for my moms, unless I need to speed them up to keep to schedules, then it's 24/0. The big advantage to 18/6 in my set-up is that during the 6 hours the lights are off in the mother room, those plants are taking in oxygen and giving off CO2. The air inlet to my bloom room is from the mom's room, so I get 6 hours of elevated CO2 levels. (for the other 6 hours they get a "fuzz-puck")

[Dutch Pimp]

Rock On...oldmac....:thumbsup:

[mendokid]

Or was that 4-20?

If it is true that roots develop better in the dark, then cloning is best done with SOME dark period. However for full on VEG growth I agree that 24 would be best. I don't need things to grow any faster then they are already.:thumbsup:

[Lit Up]

Hey Dutch, I do the same thing bro. 24/0 in the winter and 18/6 in the summer. Works great with temp stablization!

[grey1223]

Dutch Pimp,

The big advantage to 18/6 in my set-up is that during the 6 hours the lights are off in the mother room, those plants are taking in oxygen and giving off CO2. The air inlet to my bloom room is from the mom's room, so I get 6 hours of elevated CO2 levels. (for the other 6 hours they get a "fuzz-puck")

Taking in oxygen and giving off CO2 ?????????

[syde00]

Taking in oxygen and giving off CO2 ?????????

I was kinda wondering about that myself...

[LordDrow]

Ah.. Don't plants take in CO2 and give off Oxygen? Isn't that the nice things about plants? :)

Put the bong down and step away from the keyboard :)

[syde00]

Ah.. Don't plants take in CO2 and give off Oxygen? Isn't that the nice things about plants? :)

Put the bong down and step away from the keyboard :)


haha

[oldmac]

Dear Grey1223, syde00, LordDrow, etal;

Durring the lights on photoperiod yours plants run mostly on CO2. It is why some people supplement it to thier grows. BUT when the lights go out and your plants are in the dark or night photoperiod thier respiration reverses and they start using oxygen and putting out CO2.

This is why the ambient CO2 levels are higher at night then during ther day.
(this is the main reason people say they sleep so well when they visit "the country" in the summer. They usually say "the fresh air makes me sleep so good", in reality it's the higher levels of CO2 at night doing it)

Maybe you've noticed that the grow smell in a bloom room is usually worst about 1/2hr to 1hr after your lights come on, that's because your plants had a little extra CO2 to work with from the dark period.

See, get to learn something new every day. Your all welcome.

[Rusty Trichome]

An old-timer once told me that if you take care of the roots, the flowers will be brighter, and smell better. (he was talking about roses) I've found nothing since then to dispute that insight. In giving light 24 hours a day, are we stressing the root system by not allowing the daily rest period it's had for 10,000 years?

My thoughts on dark periods: (not to be confused as fact) Cannabis genetics were not established in the extreme southern or northern hemispheres, where there is sun for three months straight. I'm guessing that since there has been an established dark period for thousands of years...the plant is using the dark periods for something. (plants don't sleep, do they? or perhaps they sleep during the heat of day, and work at night...? :wtf: )

And since the plant is drawing moisture to replenish plant respiration during the day, (and nutrients, carbs, carbon...) seems to make sense to me that it's repairs and growth are happening on the night shift.
-or-
It makes no difference, but was a nice theory.

Either way...I go 18/6 with healthy, consistent results. :thumbsup:

[filo6942]

Well, beat it to death with a bat. Cannabis is a C3 plant. It requires no dark time at all during veg. The more dark you give it, the slower it is growing. ;)

Yes, however wouldn't it be best to test tune his area. Just because MJ is c3 doesnt mean the area has the proper airflow, co2 ppm, etc to benefit from 24/0. I do it because I have seen the growth is much better with my setup.

[Weezard]

Dear Grey1223, syde00, LordDrow, etal;

Durring the lights on photoperiod yours plants run mostly on CO2. It is why some people supplement it to thier grows. BUT when the lights go out and your plants are in the dark or night photoperiod thier respiration reverses and they start using oxygen and putting out CO2.

This is why the ambient CO2 levels are higher at night then during ther day.
(this is the main reason people say they sleep so well when they visit "the country" in the summer. They usually say "the fresh air makes me sleep so good", in reality it's the higher levels of CO2 at night doing it)

Maybe you've noticed that the grow smell in a bloom room is usually worst about 1/2hr to 1hr after your lights come on, that's because your plants had a little extra CO2 to work with from the dark period.

See, get to learn something new every day. Your all welcome.

I quoted the whole enchilada, 'cause it bears repeating.
If yer gonna,:weedpoke:, Ya need, to read.
That, or ask an old fart who reads :greenthumb:

Respect.
Weeze

[Italiano715]

I quoted the whole enchilada, 'cause it bears repeating.
If yer gonna,:weedpoke:, Ya need, to read.
That, or ask an old fart who reads :greenthumb:

Respect.
Weeze

That's some good info up there...I just learned something new :D:D

[oldmac]

Hey Weez,

Did you just call me an old fart????

OH....never mind......

(walks away muttering to himself)...I do resemble that remark.

[Gatekeeper777]

I have tried to 24/0 method and have had great success. The plant was very stretchy.
My electric bill went way up. I am running 15 100 watt cfls.
I then went to my local hydroponics shop and purchased a product called Liquid light

h**p://www.dutchmaster.com.au/?language=english&page=product&product=LIQUID_LIGHT
I followed the directions to the letter on a 18/6 schedule and its better then a 24/0 schedule!
I will stand on liquid light. I will never grow tomatoes without it again.
Tomatoes are DENSE,THICK, And OOZING with flavor! ;)
It runs about 60 bucks for a liter. expensive? maybe! But 1 table spoon per gallon of water and folar spray 2 times a week. It gets very cheap and well worth the effort and extra cost!
Hope I helped.

[phatsesh101]

my ladies look very tired after a long day, droopy leves and such, but at first light they reach and look happy, so i use a dark period. and clone in 24-0 but thats for temp stabilization

my lighting periods are different per strains sativas i try to run 15-16 hours light for veg and 10 -11 hours light for bloom on some strains it changes the pheno almost to where you cant tell what it is, more sativa-y

indicas get the 18-12 deal veg flr

[BeFree]

This is why the ambient CO2 levels are higher at night then during ther day.



Hot damn.

By theory, dark cycle during the daylight hours and light cycle during night hours would be better.The plants would make use of the higher CO2 levels in the night time with the lights ON. Fresh cool air from the outside night time might even add to the rich oily stank.

It's very late, and I'm :stoned:

begood

be

[SonicHaze]

I couldn't choose, so I went in the middle, using a 20/4 cycle lol.

[fluid69]

:DI just come across this thread that actually has some figures on the difference in root mass.

http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-faqs/99457-why-should-i-turn-out-lights.html

here's a quote: " Light Cycles

The dark cycle is very important to plants. Respiration (this is when plants are making energy from sugar to oxygen) Continues in dark but at a much slower pace, almost independent of available oxygen because the leaves are not making oxygen in the dark.

In the dark there is a shift from leaf production to root production as the leaves transfer excess energy down to the branches and roots. Therefore, some dark time allows for better root structures. The "Experimental Root Growth 10 Days After Cutting" graph on page 33 shows that giving plants a 24-hour light cycle is not the way to supercharge growth"

This is from "How to supercharge your garden" With the graph on page 33 this follows...

"Light period for cuttings

Plants have a free running internal bio-rhythm of 21-27 hours. In this rhythm, they need dark time. Cuttings have a built in daily rhythm (age also) that they inherit from their parent. Cuttings will root better with a 6 hours to 8 hour dark period because this is the main time when leaves and the stems transfer energy down to the root zone for storage and growth."

The chart has hours of light per day on the bottom, and length of roots in millimeters.
-@ 4hours of light the roots after ten days were only 22mm long
-@ 8 hours of light after 10 days the roots were 25 mm long
-@12 hours of light we shoot up to 40mm long
-@16 hours it peaks at 50mm
-@20 hours it drops down to 37mm
-@ 24 hours it drops down to 29mm

There is also a shit load of info regarding root to yield ratio vs veg to yield ratio, and draws the conclusion that at the end of the experiments the root to yield ratio was higher....."


The only thing that's missing is the 18/6, but I think the evidence is there for the dark period. If it works that good on clones, I'm sure it's better for vegging plants. I went 24/0 this time and everything was fine, but my next grow (and especially for my clones), I'm gonna go 18/6.

[oldmac]

:DI just come across this thread that actually has some figures on the difference in root mass.

http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-faqs/99457-why-should-i-turn-out-lights.html

here's a quote: [I]" Light Cycles

The dark cycle is very important to plants. Respiration (this is when plants are making energy from sugar to oxygen) Continues in dark but at a much slower pace, almost independent of available oxygen because the leaves are not making oxygen in the dark.


Really did not want to go down this path...again but I can't help myself, I need to comment.

This first quote is wrong scientifically: Respiration is REVERSED during the dark period. The plant STOPS taking in CO2 and giving off Oxygen (during the photoperiod regardless of length) and takes in Oxygen and gives off CO2 during the dark period. All C3 plants do this. And "sugar to oxygen" oh please dear God spare me! Read a horticultural textbook or take a class in school.
(directed at original post, not you fluid69)

Anything stated as a fact after that is useless BS.

I have been doing "asexual propagation via cuttings" (clonning is actually micro-propagation or tissue culture) for a long time and my personal observations differ a bunch from what's reported here.

Photoperiod and amount of dark period is a matter of what works best for an individual, the strain they are working with and enviromental considerations.

No one photo period is "BEST" for all situations. I use 18/6 for my mom's in one grow and 24/0 (just changed to 20/4) in another.

[Italiano715]

Photoperiod and amount of dark period is a matter of what works best for an individual, the strain they are working with and enviromental considerations.

I was thinking that the other day, no matter what light period you grow on your plants will all act differently, some for the better and some for the worse. Like growing hybrids, some phenos come out better than others in a particular strain. So saying root mass grew better on one plant to another like that is hard to relate considering each cutting is going to respond differently to root growth size.

Another thing I was thinking of is, they say put cuttings under fluorescent 24/0 for first 10-14 days to establish better rots (Jorge Cervantes recommends that also in his DVD I think) . If that is the case, then that just blew away the theory that the light cycle at 18/6 is better than 24/0.

[Dutch Pimp]

It's time to make this thread a 'sticky'...:thumbsup:...is there a MOD in the house?

[oldmac]

Hey Dutch,

Before we sticky it, it should be noted that while roots are in the "dark" all the time, they do not grow during the dark period, only during the photoperiod.

As Italiano715 points out, Cervantes and other expert authors on mj cultivation, recommend 24/0 of floro, for starting cuttings. I go one step further and use actinic white for the first few days then the 6000k floros.
Very blue light stimulates the hormones associated with root growth. This could also be accomplished with LEDs with a high blue to red ratio, or even all blue. This stimulation can only take place during a photoperiod.

And I get some pleasure from seeing the light bulb go on above some peoples heads when they read some basic information, and see how they can use it to thier advantage.

Congrats BeFree, I think you just saw the light.

[Dutch Pimp]

Since StinkyAttic left...we are like a ship without a rudder in the grow forums...:(

Stinky, Zandor, latewood, or del...please come back...we are sinking fast. We are a ship without a Captain...the crew is fine, but we need a leader...:thumbsup:

[fluid69]

I love this discussion! It's an excellent debate, is it not? I would love to know all the factors involved. That's funny that you mentioned the reverse respiration oldmac, I'm glad you did, cause I thought the same thing when I read it. I agree with you too italiano, I bet it is different for different strains. which is why I believe the breeders should supply this info. with their strains. Logic would tell you that breeders are breeding their best performing plants in their environment, and I'm sure breeders are just like the rest of us, everybody does things a little differently. And as oldmac pointed out, befree's revelation is nothing more than pure genious! For indoor growers it would make sense to switch the light cycles to take full advantage of the excess Co2 @ night. And last but not least. My fellow Tn brother. Pimp, you too are correct this should be a sticky, and we also need a grow mod. I'm sure the right person will come along or step up to the plate. There's several members here who have the chops. thank you guys for your input, ya'll rock!:thumbsup:

[oldmac]

After a year here, I thought of StinkyAttic as a spiritual mother to many of us. It was ironic she stopped by on Mother's Day. But from the two posts I saw that day....she gave the feeling, she was not happy with some of us (me included) as she thought she had raised us better then what she saw.

She is missed, not just for her knowledge, but for her moral guidance.
I've tried to do better and hope if she ever stops by again she won't be disappointed. Till a new "captain" grabs the rudder, I think we all have to row the boat together, we are all in the same boat...HMS Canna.com and we are all here because we love da' herb and what it can do.

And Fluid69, I too like a good discussion, not so sure about debates...they can spiral out of control easily.

On the subject of light schedules or photoperiods, you can see that we are talking about three distinctly different stages of a plants' growth. 1)rooting of cuttings 2)immature plants or vegitive state and 3) sexually mature plants or flowering. Each stage has it's own requirments and needs that need to be addressed.

[dejayou30]

Jorge Cervantes says plants can only process 16 hours of light maximum before needing to rest, and after that you are basically just wasting energy. If Cervates says it, I believe it! Also as some have said, plants have had night time for millions of years so it must serve a valid purpose. I used to run 24 hr light but switched to a 16/8 schedule and noticed my roots were much thicker and healthier and therefore my plants were more robust.

[jonblazing]

I use 24/0, works great!

That picture is great filo6942. Anyway, great info available here. Thanx all. Im convinced overall that 18/6 is the best way to go then.

[the image reaper]

18 hours of daylight, during vegging :thumbsup: ... I've tried several different light periods over the years, as well as other 'experiments', and the 18/6 photoperiod seems the best, overall, for our cannabis ... :smokin:

[phenom420]

yeah I'm new grower but 24/0 seems best due to my climate, also I use the AC alot in my house because my computers make it tosty.

I just went to 12/12 hour light 2 days ago.

[oldmac]

Jorge Cervantes says plants can only process 16 hours of light maximum before needing to rest, and after that you are basically just wasting energy. If Cervates says it, I believe it! Also as some have said, plants have had night time for millions of years so it must serve a valid purpose. I used to run 24 hr light but switched to a 16/8 schedule and noticed my roots were much thicker and healthier and therefore my plants were more robust.

Hey dejayou30,

Could you (or anyone) please give me a reference to where Cervantes says this. I do not have any of his books and have not been able to find one to borrow (damn prudish library). I have done some extensive google searching and been very busy reading almost every answer from Jorge @ HTs dealing with photoperiod. I'm not lookin' to disagree, just would like to see and read it in context.

The reason I'm so interested in this; there is some thought that a 16hr photoperiod may be an advantage in both veggative and flower growth.

A mj plants ability to flower or not to flower is not determined by the length of the photoperiod but by the length of the dark period.
So during the vegative phase 4 hrs of dark is more then sufficent to keep it vegging and a 16hr photoperiod coupled to that gives us a 20 hr day. So using a 20hr day for 6 days gives you 1 weeks' worth of growth. (on the 7th day he rested) Depending on how many weeks you are vegging your plant you shorten the time to veg by 1 day per week.
During the flowering phase a 16hr photoperiod coupled with 8 hrs of dark time it is sufficent to keep a plant in the flower stage (might not be able to initiate flowering at only 8hrs of dark) This 16hr photoperiod would allow the plant to recieve and process light for maxium flower growth by getting 25% more light every day. This might translate to quicker finishing times for buds. This is an experiment just waiting to happen, and I will get to it one day, maybe when I retire. lol

[dejayou30]

Its from the book Marijuana Horticulture: The Indoor/Outdoor Medical Grow Bible on page 175 in the "Light, Lamps, and Electricity" section. It says:



"Some growers leave the HID on 24 hours a day. Marijuana can efficiently process 16-18 hours of light per day, after which it reaches a point of diminishing returns, and the electricty is wasted. (See Chapter 16 Breeding)


However, I didn't find anything further in Chapter 16, so who knows? :wtf: It does go on to say:



I talked with Canadian and Dutch growers who claim their plants flower under a 6 hour dark and 12 hour light photoperiod. This expedited, 18 hour photoperiod regimen is supposed to work, but I'm not sold on it. Growers say that their harvest is undiminished, and that they are getting 25 percent more marijuana in the same time. I have not visited their grow rooms to verify these claims. No electricity is saved by adoption this regiment.


So yeah, IDK. :jointsmile:

[oldmac]

Thanks a bunch dejayou30 for the quick responce and including the whole quote. Have to respect Cervantes' opinon, tho I'm not so sure it's gospel.

The second quote is even more interesting to me, it is the shortened day routine I was talking about in my last post.

Yup, I see an experiment comming sooner rather then later. Or if anyone has used the "short day" method, how about sharing your results.

Thnx again dejayou30.

[azgir420]

No clue if your still watching, but yes I have played with the length of days for my plants during bloom. I only tried lengthening the days and running 18/12. I got unbelievable growth that grew me out of hearth and home and the length of bloom was longer. The plants have a clock going somewhere and they were counting their bloom cycle by that light. I actually only did this once because the plants were just too freaking big, totally screwed up my grow.

I can certainly see where 12/6 might speed up the speed of bloom by tricking the plant into thinking the calendar is flying by. The only concern I have is the 6 hour night. The hormones that handle bloom need a certain length of dark and I am pretty certain 6 won't cut it.

[oldmac]

A 6 hr dark period may not be enough to hold a plant in flower, usually it needs 8 hrs or so to stay in flower. With alot of strains tho they won't trigger flowering at 8 hrs, it may be necessary to start at 12 hrs of dark to get them to flower but you can then cut them back to 8 hrs or so after that.

While the plant does not have a clock per se, it takes a certian amount of time for certain hormones to increase or decrease, depending on light or dark duration. The plant's hormones act like switches, turning on or off certian processes such as when to go into flower mode. This is determined by the plant during the dark period.

You'll come across some recomendations of put your vegging plants into 24-36 hrs of darkeness before going to flower, this is to insure flowering and supposedly helps put the plant to flower quicker.

The photoperiod controls the rate of growth as you have seen yourself. In simple terms the more light, either intensity or duration will increase growth rates.

But everyone needs to keep in mind these are generalizations; with different strains and individual plants there will often be exceptions to general rules.

One big exception is landrace equitorial sativa's, they can veg very happily at 12/12, just because that is close to the photoperiod they are used to.

Photoperiod is one of the easiest ways to manipulate a plant and it's growth for our benefit. We are just scratching the the surface in understanding flowering btw.

[Felixthecat]

hahaha maybe you guys have to step away from the keyboard and take some bong rips and focus hahaha

[headshake]

welcome to the boards felix. got anything interesting to add about 24/0 or 18/6? or 16/8 for that matter? or are you too busy smoking the grapes and only the grapes?


-shake

[Dutch Pimp]

hahaha maybe you guys have to step away from the keyboard and take some bong rips and focus hahaha

you should stop smoking those male leaves and stems

[oldmac]

:wtf:

....or stop smoking crack.

[cptcannabis]

I don't think you really need the 6 hours of darkness, considering you're watering the plants, giving them nutrients, and controlling the light & temp in the room. Most proponents of the 18/6 cycle will say that during the 18 hours of light, your plants are processing the light via photosynthesis and the 6 hours of darkness allow for root growth. Considering you're controlling the environment though, root growth isn't really a huge factor unless you're growing plants so huge that they could unroot themselves from being top heavy.

[irydyum]

hahaha maybe you guys have to step away from the keyboard and take some bong rips and focus hahaha

My first need to give negative rep, I can't believe the website actually thanked me. You are very welcome canna.com.

Excellent thread BTW, OldMac, I love the logical approach to things. Seems logic flies out the window when people see pictures of big buds in their head sometimes.

May bear stating that if you can't keep good light discipline in your veg spot that 24/0 may be your only option.

[oldmac]

Yeah irydyum, that makes another good reason to use 24/0, falls under the enviromental issues catergory.

But I've said before the issue of 24/0 vs 18/6 or any other choice between, is a personal decision based on what works best for an individual in his or her own set up. I've used both for various reasons and now using 20/4 in one grow, just because I've got a few auto flowers in with my moms, and that was the recommendation as "best" by the seed producer. And the moms could care less (they told me).;)

[master7mike]

*drags an old thread from the grave*

On the topic of light periods. Ive read that the best scientist is nature... Has anyone thought about what kind of effect it might have if the lights were "scaled" on and off? Like, turn a quarter of the light on at first, then slowly bring it to full lighting, like a sunrise? and vice versa obviously to introduce dark.

Maybe doing the change gradually would be easier on the plant or some such something.

Just food for thought. :jointsmile: