Does Bubbleponic System need to adjust the ph?

[notoriousb111]

Hi, everyone


I've been learning a great deal from this forum, and I'd just like to say thanks a lot.


I'm using a home made ebb and flow system now and it works fine. However, I'm constantly adjust the ph of my ebb and flow system. I notice that maybe it's because the circulating water constantly mixing with oxygen that is constantly raising the ph up in my rez (I'm just taking guesses, I've only been growing hydroponically for 2 months. )

I'm thinking about building another very simple bubblepoinc system. The questioin that's bothering me, is that... when you put an air pump and an air stone inside the rez of a bubbleponic system, wouldn't that keep raising the ph of your rez? Putting an air stone is to allow more oxygen get absorbed in the water and prevent roots from rotting in the rez. Do people actually have to adjust the ph in bubblepoinc system constantly? (I've never used bubbleponic system b4, I'm sorry if I ased too simple a question.)

Similarly, one of an aerogarden systems is also a bubbleponic system. I'm also curious of how an aerogarden 3 adust its PH.. (I haven't heard any aerogarden grower talked about adjust the PH and I checked the aerogarden website seems to introduce it's ph adjustment function is automatic and adusts its ph itself ??

Thanks for reading my question.

[tinytoon]

I dont know for fact but I would think any water that is used on your plants in any type of system would have to have PH watched and adjusted as needed.

[notoriousb111]

I dont know for fact but I would think any water that is used on your plants in any type of system would have to have PH watched and adjusted as needed.


HI, Tinytoon

Yeah, I would think so, too. It's just that with bubbleponic system being so simple and easy to operate, I rarely see hear people talking about adjusting the ph of bubbleponic system. Maybe I should just try it and play around a little bit, but I think there should be some experienced bubblepoinc growers who could me out with my questions. Maybe some people even have used aerogarden 3 and could answer my questions about its technology. Thanks ^^

[CFLhydro]

There are a lot of variables that could affect pH. I'm just beginning testing on a product from flairform called greendream which is a one part slurry. Apparently it has a very high pH buffering capacity. I found the following on their website which may help.

"Ever wondered why pH fluctuates (i.e. typically upwards) after it is lowered? This behaviour is actually a consequence of adjusting the pH. Lowering pH via adding acid, removes bicarbonate and produces carbon dioxide. The presence of this free (i.e. uncombined) carbon dioxide (CO2) tends to lower the pH because it reacts (only weakly) with water to form carbonic acid. However, CO2 concentrations above about 0.5 mg/L in water are unstable when such waters are exposed to the atmosphere (at sea level pressures). Under that condition CO2 in excess of 0.5 mg/L will slowly escape from the water into the atmosphere. Consequently this loss of acidity causes a corresponding rise in pH.
This subsequent rise in pH is particularly noticeable with ground waters (i.e. bore water) which typically have CO2 contents around 50 - 200 mg/L (due to biological activity within the aquifer). When these waters are pumped to the surface, the pH rises with time because the excess (acidic) CO2 gradually escapes (Fig 1.16). The pH will then rise to a stable value solely dependent on the water's bicarbonate content.
Example: A bore water with 100 mg/L bicarbonate and 100 mg/L of free CO2 will have an initial pH of 6.3. Its pH will gradually rise to 8.2 after it has been exposed to the atmosphere for sufficient time to allow the CO2 content to drop to around 0.5 mg/L.
The same phenomenon (although to a much lesser extent due to lower CO2 contents) can occur with scheme (tap) water. Thus the conclusion â?? because the pH of waters is only stable after aeration, it is only the "after aeration" pH value that has any interpretative significance. To determine that value, aerate the water by tumbling a sample of it from one container to another, 30-40 times prior to measuring its pH.

Conclusion: Interpret pH values with caution because a water with a lower pH than another may produce the higher pH after both are aerated!!"

The pH value of raw waters is meaningless! (http://www.flairform.com.au/hints/ph_alkalinity_CO2.htm)

As far as the Aerogarden is concerned I'm guessing pH is 'controlled' using the nutrient tabs which must have some type of buffering capability. User pictures of plant health have left me unimpressed. I'm guessing it's a bit like a McDonalds burger.. they look great on the ad's but the real thing is a complete disappointment.

[LOC NAR on probation]

I use drip and bubblers. Leaning more to the bubblers now. When you do a rez change it seems you might chase it down for a couple of days and then it mostly levels out for the rest of 2 weeks. If I start to have bad ups or downs I look for a problem. We were just fighting root rot and the PH was all over the place and you could not hold it.

Had to leave and came back to read some interesting stuff CFL. Thanks.

I use R/O maybe more stable.

[Daddynobucks]

another thanks to CFL:thumbsup:

this could be another reason to use RO water only??

[Weedhound]

this could be another reason to use RO water only??


That's why we use RO for sure.....but to be fair; we are on well water so we don't pay the same as those who use city tap.

good luck

[Daddynobucks]

I am on city H2O at 30 ppm, never have any problems other than a daily check of Ph, next month we get a RO unit.

switched to latewoods recipe about 3 mo. ago:thumbsup:

a friend is making me a PIC with Ph probes to monitor and control Ph automaticly from my computer:D

[notoriousb111]

There are a lot of variables that could affect pH. I'm just beginning testing on a product from flairform called greendream which is a one part slurry. Apparently it has a very high pH buffering capacity. I found the following on their website which may help.

"Ever wondered why pH fluctuates (i.e. typically upwards) after it is lowered? This behaviour is actually a consequence of adjusting the pH. Lowering pH via adding acid, removes bicarbonate and produces carbon dioxide. The presence of this free (i.e. uncombined) carbon dioxide (CO2) tends to lower the pH because it reacts (only weakly) with water to form carbonic acid. However, CO2 concentrations above about 0.5 mg/L in water are unstable when such waters are exposed to the atmosphere (at sea level pressures). Under that condition CO2 in excess of 0.5 mg/L will slowly escape from the water into the atmosphere. Consequently this loss of acidity causes a corresponding rise in pH.
This subsequent rise in pH is particularly noticeable with ground waters (i.e. bore water) which typically have CO2 contents around 50 - 200 mg/L (due to biological activity within the aquifer). When these waters are pumped to the surface, the pH rises with time because the excess (acidic) CO2 gradually escapes (Fig 1.16). The pH will then rise to a stable value solely dependent on the water's bicarbonate content.
Example: A bore water with 100 mg/L bicarbonate and 100 mg/L of free CO2 will have an initial pH of 6.3. Its pH will gradually rise to 8.2 after it has been exposed to the atmosphere for sufficient time to allow the CO2 content to drop to around 0.5 mg/L.
The same phenomenon (although to a much lesser extent due to lower CO2 contents) can occur with scheme (tap) water. Thus the conclusion â?? because the pH of waters is only stable after aeration, it is only the "after aeration" pH value that has any interpretative significance. To determine that value, aerate the water by tumbling a sample of it from one container to another, 30-40 times prior to measuring its pH.

Conclusion: Interpret pH values with caution because a water with a lower pH than another may produce the higher pH after both are aerated!!"

The pH value of raw waters is meaningless! (http://www.flairform.com.au/hints/ph_alkalinity_CO2.htm)

As far as the Aerogarden is concerned I'm guessing pH is 'controlled' using the nutrient tabs which must have some type of buffering capability. User pictures of plant health have left me unimpressed. I'm guessing it's a bit like a McDonalds burger.. they look great on the ad's but the real thing is a complete disappointment.

Thanks to CFL and LOC NAR.

You both are very informative. I guess it wouldnâ??t hurt to have a deeper knowledge of PH fluctuation from CFL. On the other hand, LOC NARâ??s answer probably has given me an idea of how long the PH fluctuation will occur once I set up my own home made bubbleponic system and try to adjust my rez.

Thank you guys.

[notoriousb111]

I am on city H2O at 30 ppm, never have any problems other than a daily check of Ph, next month we get a RO unit.

switched to latewoods recipe about 3 mo. ago:thumbsup:

a friend is making me a PIC with Ph probes to monitor and control Ph automaticly from my computer:D

Hi, Daddynobucks

Your PH controller sounds awesome. The only automatic PH controller I know of is the one they sell in aquarium which has a CO2 bottle automatically pumping CO2 into a fish tank to lower down the PH. Your PH controller is designed to be monitored by a computer? That's state of the art... amazing..! That sounds so professional. Is this devise of yours gonna have a CO2 bottle as well? :thumbsup: Just wondering..

Thanks..

[Daddynobucks]

this is the controler that is the brains of the unit.

LabJack - LabJack UE9 USB/Ethernet DAQ (http://www.labjack.com/labjack_ue9.php?prodId=57)

not sure if the carbonic acid content of the water would be good for the root zone,I use a homemade aeroponic system(another thread).
initially I will use metered pumps on containers of up/down soultion, sampled and adjusted once daily

this controler will run everything,lights, CO2,airtemp,water temp(heaters and, chiller loops), humidity,fans,and Ph all in one unit

I will post more as it is being implimented

maybe mixing nuits in another container and letting it set for two or three days befor useing it,might let it stablize

[Weezard]

Hi, everyone


I've been learning a great deal from this forum, and I'd just like to say thanks a lot.


I'm using a home made ebb and flow system now and it works fine. However, I'm constantly adjust the ph of my ebb and flow system. I notice that maybe it's because the circulating water constantly mixing with oxygen that is constantly raising the ph up in my rez (I'm just taking guesses, I've only been growing hydroponically for 2 months. )

I'm thinking about building another very simple bubblepoinc system. The questioin that's bothering me, is that... when you put an air pump and an air stone inside the rez of a bubbleponic system, wouldn't that keep raising the ph of your rez? Putting an air stone is to allow more oxygen get absorbed in the water and prevent roots from rotting in the rez. Do people actually have to adjust the ph in bubblepoinc system constantly? (I've never used bubbleponic system b4, I'm sorry if I ased too simple a question.)

Similarly, one of an aerogarden systems is also a bubbleponic system. I'm also curious of how an aerogarden 3 adust its PH.. (I haven't heard any aerogarden grower talked about adjust the PH and I checked the aerogarden website seems to introduce it's ph adjustment function is automatic and adusts its ph itself ??

Thanks for reading my question.

Aloha,:)

I do aero and, no there's normally no need for constant adjustment.
So, my question is;
Are you using either Hydrotron clay pellets, or Rockwool?

Regards
Weezard

[Daddynobucks]

www

[Daddynobucks]

its hydroton in my case,but they get soaked in 5.6 H2O for a few days befor use
but there is only a six inch netpot in a five gal bucket that is all ROOTS

[Weezard]

its hydroton in my case,but they get soaked in 5.6 H2O for a few days befor use
but there is only a six inch netpot in a five gal bucket that is all ROOTS

When my 5g. buckets fill with roots the PH drops!
Anyroad, I have soaked H'tron for weeks and still had it raise the PH.
I might have got a "bad" batch, dunno for sure, but I'm done with H'tron.
Got almost 50 pounds of that crap that I'll sell to the lowest bidder.:mad:

Use coco in your next netpot and see if that fixes it.
Worked very well for me and eliminated the need to keep the H'tron wet.
I got bucket, water, coco, 5" netpot, wicks, nutes and an airstone.
All my PH creep went away. 'cept for some dropping near the end.
And that tells me it's almost harvest day.
So I start to flush from the top.

Good luck,
Weezard

[notoriousb111]

[quote=Weezard]Aloha,:)

I do aero and, no there's normally no need for constant adjustment.
So, my question is;
Are you using either Hydrotron clay pellets, or Rockwool?


Hi Weezard,


For my ebb and flow, I use rockwool placed in the hydroton. If I'm going to make a bubbleponic, I'm probably going to use both. I thought rockwool would hold seedlings better instead of hydrotons. I've never tried just growing purely on hydrotons.

You do aerogarden and there is no need for ph adjustment? That's really nice. I read that it's their nutrient tablets acting as a ph buffer or it is their " optimal chamber " adjusting its PH to its ideal level. Whatever it is, no need for PH adjustment ? Amazing...!

For my homemade ebb and flow right now. I'm using a storage box with its upper cover cut out a size of a rectangular plastic plant pot. Placeing the rectangular plastic plant pot on the top cover, putting a water pump inside the box and connecting one host from the pump to the upper rectangular plastic plant pot and it's done.

My setup:
Plastic Storage box: 15 US.
Rectangular plas'ic plant pot: 4 US.
an 800L/hour water pump 25 US.
Some hosts and small parts. 15 US.

[notoriousb111]

I might have got a "bad" batch, dunno for sure, but I'm done with H'tron.
Got almost 50 pounds of that crap that I'll sell to the lowest bidder.:mad:

Use coco in your next netpot and see if that fixes it.
Worked very well for me and eliminated the need to keep the H'tron wet.
I got bucket, water, coco, 5" netpot, wicks, nutes and an airstone.
All my PH creep went away. 'cept for some dropping near the end.
And that tells me it's almost harvest day.
So I start to flush from the top.

You use coconut in your net pot? Would you net pot hold the coconut inside it? I have some coconut but I haven't used it since I repotted my first soil grow. I had given up using coconut since I have switched to hydro grow. I wonder if it is possible to post a pic showing how net pot could hold coconut inside... Do you use rockwool along with coconut inside your net pot?

Thanks...~ :thumbsup:

[Weezard]

"You use coconut in your net pot? Would you net pot hold the coconut inside it? I have some coconut but I haven't used it since I repotted my first soil grow. I had given up using coconut since I have switched to hydro grow. I wonder if it is possible to post a pic showing how net pot could hold coconut inside... Do you use rockwool along with coconut inside your net pot?

Thanks...~ :thumbsup:

Sure no problem.
[attachment=o215628]

I call it "Bubbaponics" 'cause it's cheap and easy.
And, no, there's no need for rockwool.
It would cause the PH to rise. Coco, won't.:thumbsup:


Then it makes roots.
[attachment=o215629]

These are from a tomato plant grown in a rubbermaid tub.
with a single airstone and air pump. No water pump, no timers, no super, goodie-go-fast, additives
Just 1 tsp Dyna-gro per gallon of tap water and a half teaspoon CalMag. (I have soft tap water)


Note to NotoriousB:
It's not aerogarden, it's bubbaponics.
I do not own an aerogarden, I roll my own.

Aloha,
Weezard

[notoriousb111]

[quote=Weezard]"You use coconut in your net pot? Would you net pot hold the coconut inside it? I have some coconut but I haven't used it since I repotted my first soil grow. I had given up using coconut since I have switched to hydro grow. I wonder if it is possible to post a pic showing how net pot could hold coconut inside... Do you use rockwool along with coconut inside your net pot?

Thanks...~ :thumbsup:

Sure no problem.
[attachment=o215628]

I call it "Bubbaponics" 'cause it's cheap and easy.
And, no, there's no need for rockwool.
It would cause the PH to rise. Coco, won't.:thumbsup:


Then it makes roots.
[attachment=o215629]

These are from a tomato plant grown in a rubbermaid tub.
with a single airstone and air pump. No water pump, no timers, no super, goodie-go-fast, additives
Just 1 tsp Dyna-gro per gallon of tap water and a half teaspoon CalMag. (I have soft tap water)


Note to NotoriousB:
It's not aerogarden, it's bubbaponics.
I do not own an aerogarden, I roll my own.

Hi Weezard,

Thanks for providing these two pics.
Just wondering, is that really the coconut coir inside the net pot of your first pic( I had to ask cauze I can't really make out what's inside the net pot) ?

Before seeing this pic, I would have imagined these coco fibers falling off the net holes, but they didnâ??t . If it's really coconut fiber, then.. that's very good.

Maybe I should try my coconut coir in my hydro system because I was just about to buy more hydrotons and probably wondering why my ph keep getting even higher.

So.. do you germinate or start your seedlings on coconut coir right from the beginning?

[Weezard]

[quote=Weezard]"
Note to NotoriousB:
It's not aerogarden, it's bubbaponics.
I do not own an aerogarden, I roll my own.

Hi Weezard,

Thanks for providing these two pics.
Just wondering, is that really the coconut coir inside the net pot of your first pic( I had to ask cauze I can't really make out what's inside the net pot) ?

Did you try clicking on the thumbnail for the "big picture"?

Before seeing this pic, I would have imagined these coco fibers falling off the net holes, but they didnâ??t . If it's really coconut fiber, then.. that's very good.

Why would someone lie about that?
:wtf:

Don't believe me?
Try it.
Wet some coco and stuff it in a net pot.

Maybe I should try my coconut coir in my hydro system because I was just about to buy more hydrotons and probably wondering why my ph keep getting even higher.

So.. do you germinate or start your seedlings on coconut coir right from the beginning?

I have in the past, but now I root clones in rapid rooters and transfer them directly into coco coir.
I do germinate in coco, works much better than peat pellets.
It's a 3 bears kine thing.
Peat is too acid.
RW n Htron are too alkaline.
But mmmm, coco is just right.

Aloha,
Weezard

[Weezard]

[quote=notoriousb111][quote=Weezard]"
White screens, double posts.
Havin' fun now.

W.

[notoriousb111]

HI Weezard,

You're right. Sorry I forgot thumbnails could be magified. The coconut fibers showed very clearly inside the net pot.

Thanks for taking the trouble to remind me. I've learned a lot. You're great. :thumbsup:

[herbie the love bud]

pH is buffered by nutrients. As the plant drinks water and nutrients at different rates, pH fluctuates. There is no system that doesn't require adjustment, but the more buffering agents the better.

To be sure if it's nutrient uptake vs env check your EC. What is it doing?