AK-47 in E&F - rockwool/clay medium (First Grow Log)

[bertoxxulous]

Ok, so this is my first grow log and I'm honestly doing it more for the possibility of getting help when things start turning bad (which they most likely will, because its me). Here's the story, through a vast amount of help from LOC NAR, WeedHound, and Tinytoon I've started some supposed AK-47 seeds I recieved from a friend. I am going to follow these guys advice and see how things turn out this time. This is my fourth grow attempt and the last 3 were utter failures with the plants dying before I could get a harvest.

Ok, on to the specifics...My system is Ebb and Flow (Flood/Drain) made by Botanicare. I will be using Ionic Grow, Ionic Bloom, CalMag, and Ionic Boost. I will also be adding 2ml/gal. H202 every other day during the Grow cycle and I may or maynot purchase a ZYME product prior to bloom. I'm not trying to add too many variables into this grow right now. I just want to get a full grow from seed to harvest and once I do that my next grows will get more fancy. I'm using a x8 T5 ballast. I'll be using x8 T5 MH during Grow and then swapping over to x4 T5 MH and x4 T5 HPS during the first week of the bloom cycle.

My tap water is [email protected]. I do not have a RO filter and do not plan on using RO or distilled water for this particular grow. I'm trying to push this out before it gets too warm outside and I can't afford a RO filter right now. Once the fall rolls around I will be using a RO filter from that point forward.

My lighting schedule is as follows:
Grow Cycle: 18on/6off - 5PM-11AM
Bloom Cycle: 12on/12off - 8PM-8AM

I have started out with using [email protected] Ionic Grow and [email protected] CalMag with an overall ppm of [email protected]. I also added 2ml/gal. H202. I have a 40gallon resv. but have only filled it to 30gallons so that I have some wiggle room when topping off throughout every two weeks when I change the water.

Last but not least, are the first pictures after I transplanted them on 4/04/2009: :hippy:
[attachment=o215505] [attachment=o215506] [attachment=o215507] [attachment=o215508]

[bertoxxulous]

Something else I forgot to mention. Watering right now x4 per day for 10 minutes at a time. The bottom of the rockwool cubes should be JUST touching the water level when the flood table is fully flooded. The other thing is that, they have been on a 8:00AM to 12:00AM light rotation and lights went off at 12:00AM 4/05/2009 and will be on at 5:00PM 4/05/2009 for the first start to their 18/6 rotation during the night. I have done it this way due to the summer looming ahead.

[bigtopsfinn]

The other thing is that, they have been on a 8:00AM to 12:00AM light rotation and lights went off at 12:00AM 4/05/2009 and will be on at 5:00PM 4/05/2009 for the first start to their 18/6 rotation during the night. I have done it this way due to the summer looming ahead.

I'm kinda baked right now, but does that mean 17 hours darkness on 4/05?

BTW the setup looks very nice from a dirt farmer's perspective :thumbsup:

Good luck :jointsmile:

[LOC NAR on probation]

Good start. Search for just LOC NAR and I think one of my first is still here. It's funny. My others were removed because of what happened 3 years ago. I still have pic's of what they took from me.

Let the party begin, Oh that's at harvest and you will make it !!!!
I have to find a camera and we can compare. I got a grow started at one of my bro's houses. He doesn't have a clue so I'm preety much doing it all, maybe he will catch on. LOL. I got some hawaiian x skunk x bigbud ( a strain I mixed ) and some papaya in veg with northernlights and red bud skunk in the mother box also some S.A.G.E. to be prooffed for a mother. That should do the year out.

I don't believe in luck so, your hard work and persistence will get you there. Don't give up!!!!!

Remember do not tell anyone and most of all do not show anyone. I showed one person and will regret it for life. It's hard not to brag when your doing good. So we do it here.

[bertoxxulous]

Thanks for the support guys I really appreciate it!

@bigtopsfinn - yes it is 17 hours of darkness. They have been on a day lighting rotation from 8am-12am and since its starting to get warm outside I decided to move it to a night rotation and I figured the best time to do that would be when they were transplanted. So, what I did was transplanted them on Sat. at about 5pm, watered them once for 10 minutes and then let the lights switch off at midnight. After that I went in and reprogrammed everything for a 5pm-11am rotation so that the majority of the light cycle would be in the evening and throughout the night because I have no way of airconditioning that room directly.

@LOC NAR - that would be interesting to compare the grows! I can't wait to get this down because I really wanna start growing some of those coneissure strains you know. I can honestly say I've never actually smoked good pot ever in my life and thats one thing I've really been dying to try, and what better for me to grow it you know? I hate dealing with the black market when it comes to trying to get some bud to smoke and I hate not knowing what I'm smoking or how it was grown. But, I have like no traffic at my place, I have no friends that are close or ever visit, and family comes maybe once or twice a year and nobody knows anything because I keep a tight wrap on smell/etc. It is hard sometimes though not wanting to tell someone and show them all the hard work and effort that has been involved and what you've accomplished. Its become a big part of my life now and I can't really tell anyone about it lol.

[LOC NAR on probation]

It suck not being able to brag when you do good but that is the way it is. I like when you put up all the toys for a few to take a break and try some of your own on others you hardly see and let them guess as to where it's from. It maybe my favorite game now. Like you I had only seen the good stuff like 2 times. My younger bro had the connect but wouldn't help me for shit. Now he knows I turned him to the power of the hydro side.

If you want to see some of the trichomes they took just let me know. Waiting for the next set of pic's.

[bertoxxulous]

@LOC NAR - Yea that would be great to see the pics.

Just to give an update, after the seedlings had no light for 17 hours when the lights came on today they were looking ok albeit what I think might be signs of too much lighting so I raised my ballast up to 3 feet from plants and turned off x4 of the MH. Now they are getting only x4 MH. My water looks kinda murky and I'm not sure why. Almost like a white murky. I've never used CalMag before though and i'm assuming thats probably a bi-product but I'm not sure. I also added 60ml of H202 into the 30gallons. PPM was sitting at [email protected], I added 1 gallon of DI water which brought it down to [email protected]. I'm going to try to keep it roughly there for the rest of the week. If the plants start looking rough I'm going to pump halfway and drop the nute/calmag down so my overall ppm is between [email protected].

On a side note, does anyone know if H202 adds any EC or changes the PH significantly?

My PH dropped from 5.7 to 5.5. I'm leaving at 5.5 till tommorow morning.

[LOC NAR on probation]

Your PH is fine at 5.5. It maybe the h202 that's making your water murky. A little dose to my bro's did the murky thing but we were fighting rot before a complete change and wash down of the systems. Just used it to be sure. If it changed the ppm's it would not be enough to notice. We are doing a test run for a fog log with fog misters.

The calmag would only give it a tinge of color like some nutes do.

[bertoxxulous]

Musta been the H202 then. After taking a look at a post in a message board catergorizing plant problems, I think what I may be having is heat stress on the seedlings. At least it looks like it from the picture that was posted, and it would make sense. I had 4x T5 HPS at 2 feet from the seedlings so that was probably too close and then tent temperature has been in the 78-82 range during its normal light cycle. Now, after changing the light cycle to night time max temp today was 78 so its alittle better, if not by much. The room temperature has dropped by about 5-6 degrees though so it has made a decent difference. Now, about my water...PPM was like [email protected] when I first filled the resv. Today it was at like [email protected] at 5pm and the PH had dropped from 5.6 to 5.4. I added a bottle of DI water which nocked the PH down to 5.0 and was at [email protected] at 11pm after 2 waterings. I just added three gallons of straight tap water which brought my PH up to 5.6 and my EC to [email protected]. I find this really strange and I'm honestly not sure whats going on. I'm going to check it one more time before I go to bed in an hour or so but the next watering isn't till 3:30am.

[bertoxxulous]

Well I checked the PPM before I went to bed at about 3am and it had climed to about [email protected] and the PH as still sitting at 5.6. This morning (8am4/06/2009) the PH had dropped to 5.4 and the ppm was up to [email protected]. I'm really not sure whats going on here. So far now I've added 3 gallons of tap, and 1 gallon of DI water I purchased from the store, and my ppm just keeps going up while my PH keeps dropping. My lights come back on at 5pm today and the first watering will be at 5:30pm so I will most likely add more tap water to try and nock the ppm down again. Also, I've already got some of that brown sandy like sediment buildup already happening in the bottom of my resv. Also, I added 50ml of H202 this morning at 8am as well.

My main concern is that there is some element in my tap water that is making my ppm go up but I don't know enouph about that kind of thing to formulate an educated opinion on the matter. I'm also affraid with adding so much water that I'm deluting the amount of nutrients in the resv. and the ppm buildup is from some unkown element in my tap. Anybody got some ideas? :wtf:

[Weedhound]

50ml h202 into how much water? And what was the strength of the h202? Unfortunately your tap water sucks big time and the only way to figure it out I think is to try something else and see how the plants do.

[bertoxxulous]

50ml of 3% H202 into 34gallons. I had originally put 30gallons of tap. then in the last day I've added 1 gallon DI and 3 gallons tap to try and bring the ppm back down. The one thing I'd like to throw into consideration is that, when I did this with my clones I just trashed, the ppm wasn't climing up so fast.

[Divestoned]

hydroton is dirty as hell,and is probably causing the brown sand.
With flood and drain you'll always have to battle your res.
I find that if my plant's are drinking water faster than they are drinking nute's (ppm raising) lowering the ppm will often stabilize it.

Dive:stoned:

[bertoxxulous]

Here are some pictures of what i'm talking about with some clones that I just trashed a few days ago.

Pic 1 (http://boards.cannabis.com/attachments/plant-problems/215125d1238387700-re-occuring-tip-burn-wall-text-img_0585.jpg)
Pic 2 (http://boards.cannabis.com/attachments/plant-problems/215126d1238387700-re-occuring-tip-burn-wall-text-img_0586.jpg)
Pic 3 (http://boards.cannabis.com/attachments/plant-problems/215127d1238387700-re-occuring-tip-burn-wall-text-img_0587.jpg)

[MichiganAero]

Ive had that in my E&F system before.... i "think" its from not washing the hydroton well enough... But i could be mistaken... The next time i used my ebb and flow system i went above and beyond when cleaning the hydroton and it didnt happen again...

The good news.. its just inert clay.. so it wont hurt anything.. and, depending on your pump filter, it wont even pick it back up.. which is why it tends to accumulate on the "drain" side of my res.


Good luck!

[bertoxxulous]

Well, considering that it is from the hydroton, is there any chance it could be raising my ppm so fast? I added another 2 gallons if brita filtered water to my reservoir last night which brought me from 5.3ph to 5.7ph and [email protected] to [email protected]. These plants are still small and the water has only been in the reservoir for not quite three days so far so I know its not evaporating that fast AND my temperature in the tent has been between 68-72 for at least two days.

The plants are still showing signs of growth with their 3rd set of true leaves starting to grow but I think the possible light/heat stress may have stunted their growth.

[Divestoned]

Maybe drop the ppm down to 400 and see if it stabilize's at all.when my ppm is too high,it raise's fast,when it's just right it's fairly stable.the plant's take in water AND nute's so if they're drinkin water,faster than nute...you get that raising PPM.


Dive:stoned:

[bertoxxulous]

@Divestoned - I think I may do that either today or tommorow. I plan on pumping about 10-15 gallons out, filling again with brita water and then adjusting to around 400ppm. I was just afraid my plants may not be getting enouph nutes because I'd be at [email protected] Ionic grow and [email protected] CalMag.

Also, I think I'm seeing a trend here. When I take my measurements at 5pm, that is when the lights kick on, and thats usually when I get more normal readings like yesterday at 5pm I was at 5.7ph and [email protected] but this morning at 8am which is 20 minutes after the last watering before the lights shut off at 11am I was at 5.3ph and 590ppm. What I'm seeing is that my readings in the morning after the last watering are tending to be like this but when I check everything at 5pm its back to a more normal reading. I will confirm this later today when I take my reading at 5pm again. Stay tuned lol.

[bertoxxulous]

Well my little theory was wrong. The only real trend is the ph drops and the ppm goes up pretty significantly. I've added so far about 7-8 gallons of water to keep the ppm down and this morning at 8am (4/09/2009) I was at [email protected] and 5.7ph after adding 1 gallon of brita water.

[subzero]

Is there limescale in your kettle? If yes you have hard water and should be using ionic hard water grow at the mo and forget the cal mag. if not use ionic soft water and forget the cal mag. ionic likes ph around 6 and i have never needed to add anything else. The sediment is from the hydroton being not washed properly. if the ph is rising and the ec is dropping that is what you want. It means the plant is feeding and disposing waste back into the water. if the ph is dropping and the ec is rising they arent feeding and the water is evaporating. Run the ionic at 3ml per liter to start. If you havent yet had a successful grow in the tent there is a good chance that if it is pvc it is poisoning your plants, this recently happened to me and i couldnt f"in believe it. The 3% h202 from the drugstore has other stuff in it to stablize it that plants dont peticularly like. get some oxy plus and dilute it down before adding it to the system. did you treat the rockwool with ph5.5 water before adding the plants? if not this can cause problems as well. Rockwool will hold water for ages so let it dry out between waterings until you root system can cope. you shouldn't use the britta either, i have never heard anything positive about them for this application use straight tap, let the chlorine evaporate off the ionic should do the rest. I'm in the uk and dont know how many watts a t5 mh??? or a t5 hps??? (I thought t5s were flourescent tubes???) puts out but, 400w absoulte max for small plants. mix up the spectrum a bit, more blue than red for veg. Ionic is a very good one part and when everything else is right you shouldnt need to add anything else except a bit of ph down now and then.

hope this helps :thumbsup:

Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - Yes that does help quite a bit. I have no idea about the limescale honestly. My tent poles are not PVC they are metal with white powder coating finishing on them. The tent is newer, purchased in fall of 08'. I don't think its a poisoning situation because I think all my prior plant problems could easily be explained as overnute. What is oxy plus and how much do you suggest I dilute it down, and now much should I use per gallon or liter? I treated the rockwool with PH5.6 water and 1/2 strength Ionic Bloom. About the lights, the T5 metal halides, I'll have to confirm with the store but its well over 1000w of lumins I believe and my ballast can hold 8 of them. I'm currently only using 4 and the ballast is slightly over 3 feet above the plants. I believe I had it to low to start and they started showing signs of either heat stress or over lighting so I raised the light up significantly and they are looking much better now. About the HPS T5, I don't believe the are actually called HPS but they do give off red spectrum of light, but at a higher lumin count and produce less heat. Again, I need to figure all that out but I've been lazy about that part to be honest. Normally I start my seedlings off with a 400w light but the spot I had it hanging from got some water dmg and i haven't replaced that overhead yet so I put them directly in the tent from seed which was my mistake. And lastly, I've been running the Ionic at [email protected] wich roughly equates to 1/2 tsp. per gallon which I'd say is roughly 3ml per gallon which would be less but I've also been going 50/50 calmag/ionic grow. I am going to pump about 15-20gal. (I'm just about 38gal. total right now) and I'll stop using the CalMag and put myself at about [email protected] with only tap and ionic grow. Also, what is your tap at sub? Mine is at [email protected] if you didn't catch that from my earlier posts. Lastly, could you please tell me your nute schedule and approx. ppm per week and when you swap, you seem to be the only person here other than me that uses Ionic and I'd personally like to hear what your nute schedule is considering you are using it successfully.

Lastly, does anyone have any suggestions on how to clean hydroton properly if you DON'T have a high pressure water sprayer? I don't know if I want to throw it in a sweater bag and put it in my dishwasher because my dishwasher blows ass.

[subzero]

Hi,

I will get back to you when I get back from work, about 11:00pm our time, but have a look at the inside of your kettle, if there is white build up in there your water is hard also you will usually find a white film on your house taps or on the shower curtain. Ionic (Hard) is made just down the road from me and it is designed for the very hard water whe get here caused by lime stone. Their soft water version is to suit r.o. water over here. When i lived in Canada our water was soft but it varies everywhere you go.

Back soon

Subzero. :smokin:

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - Thanks for the quick response, I'm at work as well so I'll have to look into it when I get home at around 5pm EST. I will say though off the bat that I have had issues with shower heads getting clogged as well as faucets and even my dishwasher drain gets clogged with resedue as well. I don't know if its limestone that is the problem but my tap is definately hard. As of right now I'm using the Ionic Grow/Bloom that isn't for hard water. I was going to buy it the last time I went but they only had the non-hard water version so I'll have to give them a call and find out about that or have them order me some. Do you think its ok if I continue to use what I have right now though? I'd imagine I would have to use less than I could normally get away with from the hard water solution?

P.S. For the record, when you refer to kettle, do you mean my reservoir? If so there is some buildup that occurs on the top and along the water line on the inside of my reservoir. It also had a somewhat yellowish tinge in some places due to me using full strength (4tsp. gallon) until this grow where I have used significantly less nutes than I had the three previous times which is why I'm positive my issues in the past were nute burn. I also didn't have a ppm pen till this grow either. Opened my eyes it did. :eek:

[subzero]

Right, I'm back.
Your plants don't look bad at all but i know that you can get a bit paranoid when you get things wrong, everything seems to take sooo long when you are looking at them every 5 minutes doesnt it!

Let us begin.
I wash hydroton although i don't like it or use it anymore, in the bath and keep agitating it and draining it until there is no more sediment. Put a bit at a time in a strainer and blast it off with the shower nozzle. dishwasher surely must have still have soap residue wouldn't it? That could/would be fatal. a little sediment is ok as long as it doesnt block the pump.

Oxy plus is h202 only much more concentrated and pure than the drugstore stuff also made for the job at hand. it is also very good for sterilizing your equipment. I think Growth technology (makers of ionic) sell it as "liquid oxygen". Ask your hydroshop it maybe called something else over there. dont get it on your skin it will burn instantly, follow directions the bottle.
Dont use h202 with any zyme products as it will kill the benificials (except nitrozyme which isnt really a zyme product) The zyme products someone mentioned above would likley be cannazyme or equivelant. So nitrozyme is ok cannazyme no,no. Cannazyme is great stuff though.

When i start from seed, I always put them in soil, when they stretch which is normal you can just bury them deeper, I then take a couple of clones off each one, flower the seedlings in the soil (when they are about 8 inches tall and looking healthy) , find your females, bin the males (at least until you learn a little more). Now grow them out (at the beginning match mark the clones to the plants so you know which ones came from where very important) At harvest choose your favorites, not always the ones with the biggest buds. keep the matching clones as mothers, bin the rest or give em to your brother. keep your moms under a low wattage flourescent, just feed them enough to keep them alive unless you have lots of space for big moms. then about 2 weeks before you need more clones up the nutes and the light then clone from the top to keep them small. after a few crops the moms stems will become woody and clones wont root so quick, time to repeat the cycle. you can take a clone from a clone mother if you like the strain, but eventually they lose vigour ect.

The "supposed to be ak47" worries me a bit. Always get seeds from a reputable breeder. google your strain when choosing, any problems with seed companies should be found before you buy.If you cant find anyone on the net who has grown a strain dont buy it, lots of crooks out there. The only female seeds I would ever trust is femaleseeds.nl but even they are having production problems this season. they arent selling many of their strains right now as they arent passing their quality control. They are a very good seed company and wont sell you their mistakes. Greenhouse females are selfed seeds from mr nices mothers. another story but dont believe the ghs hype. IMO. TGA (Subcools) have some kick ass strains.

I had a quick look for your lites found some on an aquarium site i think, so i dont know if the spectrums are right for mj or not. Eventually I would get some lamps that you are sure of. (sunmaster, growlux ect) .watts and lumens are completely different measurements so that is a bit confusing to a beginner as well. 400 watts hps per m2 for small plants, 600 watts-1000 watts m2 flowering but watch the heat. i'll leave that one for now. I will let you do the research but it is important, look for dual spectrum sunmaster, they are great for a beginner.

Feeding,
dont add calmag, if you kettle (for making tea) has scale in it and get some hardwater ionic asap, it has less cal/mag in it because hard water is already loaded with it. when i switched to ro, i could only find cal mag or calmax on one uk site wound up with a canadian brand, used it once and never needed it again, didnt need it then either! shouldnt need it for nutes designed for hydro mj, when you change your resivoir once a week. nobody uses it over here. probably because our water is hard, hard, and our nutes are made to specificly grow mj where it is a less tolerated where you are (i think). Ionic is specificly for mj.

Ionic is pretty forgiving stuff ideal for a beginner, as you gain experience you will want more control of your grow and will probably go for a 2 or 3 part and some additives as i have done long ago. for now keep it simple. (Advanced Nutes don't believe the hype either) i would feed at 3 ml per liter ionic grow hw by hand when the rockwool dries out, maybe once a day?, water around the cube, dont saturate it, hydroton holds moisture pretty well, make those plants search for food . once you get some explosive growth, up the nutes to full strength 7ml/l and start using your pump. Add 1/2 strength nitrozyme if you like for 1 week only,its like organic steroids for plants also made by gt, but stop after 1 week or you will have too many leaves and side branching. after 3 days you wont believe the difference. When you flip the lights 12/12 use grow for the first week and then hw bloom for week 1 and 2, then add the boost at 1ml/l to your bloom at full strength until 2 weeks before harvest, then stop with the boost. 1 week to 10 days before harvest just run ph 6 tap only to flush out all the excess nutes. the leaves will yellow but that is normal at this stage as the plants are using up everything they got. (i know some canadians dont flush their plants but this one does and the lung expanding cough and the black ash doesnt exist here) up to you.

i havent given you any tds (ppm) levels because there are at least 2 different scales 500 and 700,that i know of. i havent got a clue what your meter is so it would be fatal if we got our wires crossed. shame you didnt get an ec meter instead, we could then speak the same language.

Make it a habit to change your tank solution once a week ph between 5.8-6.1for ionic 6 seems optimal here but let it drift from 5.8 up, this proves that the plants are happy and too much ph down is bad too. I would get a couple of airstones in the resivoir and ditch the h202 once the plants take off but make sure your air pump is outside the tent when the plants are small otherwise you water will get too hot and it wont hold any oxygen causing root rot and other nasties.

Any problems if you follow this i guess would be light, heat, ventilation or tent as i dont know specifics about these.

feeeeeeeeeeeew!

That my proceedure anyways with great results of around 500-600gm2

good luck, keep it all clean.

Subzero. :stoned:

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - I guess it would take a canadian to figure that out about me, eh? Well, man you really put out alot of info there. I would like to say, that I use this Text (http://cannabis.com/growing/ph-What_are_the_differences_between_ppm_and_EC.html)
As my guide to figure out the difference of what people are putting as their ppm/ec. Per this chart here, I'm 0.5 or 500 Hanna. I'm actually using a milwaukee but its 0.5 like the Hanna.

The issue with my ventilation is not the tent, I have an inlet fan on the bottom and a exit fan on the top. Its the room, it has no ventilation going to it, totally closed off, on a slab so this room has no direct ventilation. I've been opening the door to get more ventilation into the room and the tent temperature so far, for this last week have been max of 75 and low of 68.

The light thing, I've lost my damned receipt so I have no clue specifically what I have and what amount of lumins it puts out so I'll have to get back to you with that one.

Thanks!!

P.S. I'd like to point out that this is my favorite post that I will ever make......you figure it out.

[subzero]

Awww.

Keep that door open, doesnt it say how many watts it is on the actual bulb? or on the ballast. We are 240volts out of our mains plug so there may be difference in bulbs sold there (there would be for sure). I was an outdoor guy in Canada, plenty of space! An example of ours would be
1 x 600 WATT sunmaster new, produces 90,000 (ninety thousand)lumens.

back to work :jointsmile:

Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - I threw the box away and I've been lazy and didn't check the lights yet to answer this question sorry, I will get to the bottom if it eventually:thumbsup:

So I pumped out the majority of the water in the reservoir and added 25 gallons back. before adding the nutes I was at [email protected]. So I nocked the ppm up to [email protected] with just Ionic Grow this Sunday (4/12/09) right before the lights shut off and nocked ph down to 6.0. at 5pm when lights turn on I checked ph/ppm and was at 5.8ph (after using some ph down) and ppm of [email protected]. Here are the pictures of the plants after one week in the system: Pic 1 top down, Pic 2 side profile, Pic 3/4 best looking plants, Pic 5 WTF?
[attachment=o215915] [attachment=o215916] [attachment=o215917] [attachment=o215918] [attachment=o215919]

[icbh707]

hey bert,
i just read through your log tonight and i wanted to join in real quick. now i just need to remember what comments i wanted to throw out there...damn late night kush.
i dont know whats on the other sides of the walls of your room or above the ceiling so that you cant vent out but i am running into the same issue now. i think im going to change the door to the room for a cheap home depot door and either cut a hole in the door and cover it with a vent cover or use a dog door opening and on the other side attach the ducting from the hoods and the filter. but my door is exterior. if yours leads into the house youll have a hot hallway.
the only other advise would be to do exactly as subzero says, it sounds like you found a pro with 14 posts that is willing to help and knows your neuts like the back of his hand;
the lights, 400 for early veg and 600-1000 for the rest. if you cant vent,no way no how, then it might be tough.
the airstones. not sure what prices are like for you but i get a double pump and 2 stones for like $30-40. a must have.
the medium and neuts. i have done hydroton...a lot of it and after 2 runs i was over it. ive never used your neuts. i started with GH flora and have stayed with it and love the results. but whatever sub was using to get 500-600gm2....use that! coco? i would look into 2-3 part programs at some point. also if you go bigger with the lights youll want to go bigger with the pots. are those 2-3gl bags? folded in half 1-1 1/2... i use 12in mesh bottom with e&f and those things take 1 lg bag of roots organic for every 2 pots and the roots still use up every inch in there.
the genetics!!! i have had bubba kush clones from 5 people over the years and there is one guy (the stupidest and most flakey guy of them all) whose strain blows them all away. my fist clone guy was the worst. for a long time i thought i was raising my girls right and had all the factors figured out and still was getting bad yields. right before i gave up all together i went to a club, got some nice clones and did what sub said, took cuttings, made mothers and took more cuttings and the yields went through the roof, better quality, and less issues all together. i now have a better clone guys and tell everyone i know that starts growing "get good genetics!"
im sure theres some more things ive forgot but i gotta get back to my girls anyway.

oh and sub...great post! "Is there limescale in your kettle?" i almost pissed myself LMFAO!!!! of course i was totally high but i thought that was so funny! im like wtf...a kettle? spoken like a true englishman. anyways i do have some questions for you but i do have to go so i'll just ask this, whats your set up like now?
peace:jointsmile:

[subzero]

Icb, I'm glad you thought that was funny :thumbsup:, but i'm not sure why?
Don't you have kettles over there? Or maybe I should get some bubba kush on the grow and see thing from your perspective! :stoned:Thanks for the praise, but i'm no scientist really.

Bert,

I am no expert with f+d but if it were me I would get some spreader mat from the hydro shop and lay it on the bottom of the tray so the roots have something to grow into, it will be a bit more forgiving than them just sitting in plastic if your pump fails. You guys really do things different on that side of the pond. Most over here would put the clones in 3 or 4 inch rockwool cubes, with a layer of spreader mat and cover over the tray. and thats it, no fuss no muss. You are going to cover the roots when they grow out of those bags arent you.
Ak 27 is known to have mutant leaves, I am pretty sure that number 5 will grow out of it. Don't sweat it.

Subzero.

[subzero]

Oops. Ak-47 :jointsmile:

Subzero.

[subzero]

Icb.

I use a 1 m2 nft table (gt 100) in a 1.2m2 tent, 3inch rockwool cubes on a spreader mat. 6 - 8 plants veg until good root system (10 days) then 12/12. 2x 400w son t agro lamps air cooled. 775 grams dry last harvest. Jack the ripper.
Thats it.

Subzero.

[icbh707]

hey sub,
i was thinking kettle...hhhmmm...res, part of the well pump, i had no idea and when i saw you only had 14 posts i thought maybe you were a noob making up names for things until i read through your post and realized you knew your shit. once i saw (for making tea) i reread your first post and had a good chuckle...but yeah, not quite as funny right now. ill go hit the bubba in a few and see whats up with that. i dont know many people that drink tea and the ones that do call it a tea pot. most people i know, in cali anyway, drink coffee.

i used those grow bags for a while when i hand watered and never had much root system grow through the holes. i have a few friends that use the coco mats under 6x6 cubes and they love it. but they say that they dont use that method in small rooms where they cant get to the other side of the trays because they cant move plants around to inspect.

sounds like a cool setup. so 800w total in a little more than a 3x3ft area 6-8 ladies with a 10 day veg. hhhmmm.
now some veg faster than others but i normally do 9 per m2 (3 rows of 3) under 1000w with a 10-20 day veg and get about 600-750g
(the sour d i get is almost no veg, 11 week flower, 800-900g) sounds like we get about the same but you use 200w less than i do and likely have an easier time controlling heat. i have a lot of big coco filled root balls to get rid of and you have 8 3x3in cubes and a mat to dump? im thinking i want to try this method out at some point.
so your 400s are right next to each other? what neuts?
sorry about all the brain picking but im very intrigued with the way things are done across the pond. my wife is german and if we ever move over there i'd like to be informed on the way things are done there. i guess the US looks at lighting and growing the same way we look at cars, bigger and less efficient is better.;)

[subzero]

We drink coffee too but we boil the water in a kettle before we add it to instant coffee, same with tea! ;) Your right, you cant move them at all but can easily see the roots under the cover. 1.2x1.2 is allll most 1.5m2 but with nft you get absoutly explosive growth if you haven't tried it.. do. If you want some ideas give me a shout. You do need them in a tight space when they are mature because they will fall over otherwise. lack of support is the only problem. canna aqua nutes until I went ro (they put chloride in our water here that does not evaporate off also pesticides from the local farm land and lots of estrogen tooo yuk..) Now vitalink max 2 part soft water (very clean nutes MJ specific for ro), and pk 13/14 for 1 week 3/4 strenght as soon as you see the buds spiral, if they have formed a cola its too late. I had a giggle at your "hot hallway" statement! Scaley kettle AND a hot hallway! fucking stroll on! whats he gonna do???? :stoned: We had kettles in canada too. oh yea agro bulbs produce about 430watts each new so we are pdc, yes i put them about 8 inches apart side by side in reflectors not cooltubes. They dont like you growing in germany! have a look at some uk hydro sites, things have really come along way in the last couple of years. oh and the mats i am refering to is like a thin layer of fiberglass before you put the resin on, (i'm guessing you still have surfboards in cali dont ya?!) :D

Sorry bert, we'z a bit off track here now.

Peace.
Subzero. ;)

[bertoxxulous]

Hey guys I don't have much time to talk because I'm in the middle of a raid that I was late for because my internet was down due to a storm but I wanted to say I had some comments but I'll have to to em later.

With my other plants that I've tried, the roots grew out the bottom, but not very many, and non in the light. All this gear I have was all recommended to me at a time where I had honestly not done any investigation due to paranoia so I went into this whole thing kind of blind and now I'm trying to pick up the peices.

[bertoxxulous]

To expound on the discussion of my grow system. I kinda like it from what other grow systems that I have seen. Now, it still remains untested for me if the root issue is really going to be a problem because I've fucked up my other 3 grow attempts so the plants were in much less than favorable conditions and root growth could have easily been stunted. However, there is a good solid 2 inches of hydroton in a bag that is close to, or at least 8 inchs in diameter. So, from my standpoint I would assume that there is enough room for root growth. I am a nub to growing however, so all my assumptions could be based on a false sense of logic, so don't think I'm arguing, I'm just trying to shed some light on to my way of thinking about things here.

So now you guys have seen a few pics of my F&D setup, what would YOU recommend as the best solution for growing here? Please be very specific for my benefit (I.E. 4'' rockwool cubes, etc.etc.). To state again, based off some recommendation from other folks on this site, I place 1'' rockwool cubes on top of about 2 - 2.5'' of hydroton in 1gal. bag (approx. 7'' diameter) and the filled hydroton around the 1'' cubes so that only the tops of the cubes are showing. The bottom of these bags have 4 wholes on 4 sides of the bags. I have the bags positioned just so that the top of the water level barely touches the bottom of the rockwool cubes. From my understanding, and from what I'm using, this is the best possible solution with what I'm using, but from the way you guys are talking I'm using least optimal stuff, or is it more a preference thing?

:clap: On a side note to this post, it seems my PH and nutes have stabilized after this weekend and the plants seem to look bigger and more healthy every day. I can only try and hope.

[subzero]

No, don't get us wrong your set up looks great, it WILL work fine, there is no best set up, everyone has their own techniques and tricks that they tweak over the years. We were just really comparing how things are different in the uk to north america and sharing a few ideas. I just assumed the roots would grow out of the bags and into the tray. If this is the case you should cover the roots. Alot of people dont get on with rockwool, personally I love it. If everything is looking healthy just keep it up, you will succeed.

All the best

Subzero.

[icbh707]

hey bert,
very happy to hear things are going well!:thumbsup:
its most definitely a matter of preference. there are so many types and brands of mediums, watering methods, lighting, and you can use them together in different ways.
just general advise that i give to every person i help get going is even though you are told 5 different ways of room setup and growing methods its best to find the guy with a method thats easy to follow, has step by step instructions on what to do and where the plant should be, consistent good yields...., and most of all will be there to answer any questions, and then follow his method to a tee.
ive had a few people take most or some of my setup and then use things from another friends setup and and then the other friend wont get back to them about questions and i can only really school them what i know and use, the next thing you know things get real bad.
having said that i think your setup looks great. i dont like hydroton myself but i had some good yields using it. back then i vegged in the small rockwool cubes (croutons) and tp to hydroton in 3gl mesh bottom pots. not sure if those are the cubes youre using but its hard to clean it out of the hydroton and starts to get nasty. i think i listed a few things i thought were great ideas from sub. i think youll do great this run and maybe work with this setup over the summer then go bigger in the fall when its not so hot. gotta go for now sorry.

[bertoxxulous]

Well. I thought things were going ok and now it looks like I'm having a deficiency, Iron or Magnesium possibly? You guys take a look. Yesterday I did a full drain and refill of the reservoir and also cleaned it out, which was filthy. Lots of sediments at the bottom this time...more than in the past. This time I'm going with 30gallons all tap, no brita water, and let the water sit out overnight to evaporate the chlorine. One interesting thing I'd like to point out though is that after letting my tap sit out overnight it dropped in almost 30-50ppm down to about 260ppm. So what I did was add about 120ml of Ionic Grow and 80ml of CalMag (for the deficiency) in 30gallons of tap that set out overnight with an overall ppm of [email protected] and 5.9ph. Also, I'm having a hard time right now keeping the temps down in the tent...today as an exampled peaked at 80% in the tent. I also believe this particular bean doesn't like heat more than the last grow attempts I had and has really reacted negatively as soon as it starts getting hot. I'm going to be putting in airconditioning this week so I hope that'll help cool the room down.:cool:

Here are the photo's from the end of the second week in the system. Notice the white/yellow at the tips, its alot worse on the new growth:

[attachment=o216245] [attachment=o216246] [attachment=o216247] [attachment=o216248] [attachment=o216249]

[icbh707]

are you using air stones yet? if not you should be. a cheap must have.:thumbsup:
sub should know about the ionic but i think i remember him dissin the calmag ;). i myself use calmag...and lots of it;). through late veg and stretch phase i keep it around 3-5ml/gal or about 1ml/l for preventative but you can use it up to 10ml/gal for retroactive. sub...??? i dont know maybe its just GH but before calmag i had a lot of dead plants...just saying...i dont know this ionic stuff so i cant say. also, with GH flora late veg im at about 800ppm.
i think they look great, but i see the pale color too. what are your ppms supposed to be in aggressive grow with ionic?
is that PM on the hydroton in that one pic with the toothpick? :wtf:

was the temp 80f or the humi 80%?

all in all i have to say if i saw whats in those pics i would have upped the ppms too.:thumbsup:
but get some bubbles going in that res like yesterday. :thumbsup:
in fact i just stopped by my buddys place and he was cleaning his res, 5 weeks into flower, for the first time and i was amazed at what one air stone could do...ill try to load the pic of it...
keep up the good work:rastasmoke:

[icbh707]

also, is there a fan on them?
im not sure about your light (got any pics of it?) but i try to keep the small ones in the middle and the large ones on the outside. are you going to top? or lst or anything? how much more room do you have to raise the light in those tents?

[bertoxxulous]

@icbh707 - I've been using airstones the whole time but the ones I'm using kinda suck I think to be honest but I did buy a pump for a 50 gallon aquarium and connected two airstones to it and run it 24/7.

I see you saying your using alot of CalMag...do you use RO water or just tap, and if your using tap, what is your ppm on your tap? Mine is 300ppm at 0.5 or 500, however you wanna say it. I want to use RO water, and I will be in the fall, I just don't have the money to afford one right now and I don't plan on growing throughout the whole summer, this will be my last attempt before the fall. I think its a good decision because I'm already having heat problems and its only going to get worse.

The sediment issue, I wish I would have had the forsight to have taken a picture at the time, but it was looking really dirty in the reservoir after only two weeks which really has me worried. I haven't used any hydrogen peroxide yet after draining the reservoir and cleaning it yesterday which I think could have been a contributing factor but at the same time I kinda wanna use it to kill any bacteria that may grow in there.

80 degree's F. My humidity is ~40% 24/7.

When you asked about the picture with the toothpic, I guess I don't know what "PM" is. The white stuff? If that is what your talking about I've always just assumed it was a calcium type buildup from the nutes but now I'm not so sure. I'm afraid it may even be a mold because I saw some hairy-looking white spot on a peice of hydroton yesterday. If you know anything about that please fill me in. Those hydroton peices on top are not directly touched by water so I was kind of curious why that buildup was occuring on them. Also in the past I get a kind of algae/fishy almost smell from my reservoir at the end of two weeks when I clean it....which is why I kind of feel the need to use the H202.

Lastly, I'll see about getting you a picture of the top of the tent but...bottom intake fan near the base of the tent, exhaust fan at the top of the tent, 8 ballast T5 lighting, and a large box fan mounted to the top of the tent in a corner and pointed slighty down that runs 24/7. I also have the exhaust and intake fans running 24/7. Non of my fans are directly pointed at any of the plants.

[subzero]

Hi Bert,

I would be shocked if you are getting a deficency with ionic this early on. are you handwatering or flooding it still? The fishy smell suggests to that the rockwool isn't drying out enough between waterings. That is the exact reason that I stopped with a rockwool/hydroton combo, the friggin smell. I stick by my thoughts about calmag, especially with tap over 300ppm, it is already hard. If you are still flooding it, I would hand water for awhile honestly and let the rw dry out a bit. You seem to be changing the resevoir alot for such small plants,possibly knocking everything off balance,each time if you hand water you will have more control of your feeding for a couple of weeks and you wont be wasting all that nute solution. I am guessing that it is an enviornmental problem rather than nute deficincey as ionic has everything that a mj plant requires and imo plants that size wouldn't absorb one specific nute from so much solution in such little time. If you saw explosive growth then this happened (and the ppms were dropping and the ph was rising), MAYBE, but as it looks now they havent produced enough up top to warrant even 1 resevoir change. Careful if you up the ppms much with plants that size otherwise you will burn them. Get us a close up of the pale leaves. I think that changing variables every day isnt doing much good either. Get a nice clean oxygenated 1/2-3/4 strength solution of ionic grow, ph 5.8-6 hand water for a week or 2 when the rw dries out a bit and you can be pretty sure that the nutrients are not the problem. I think you are giving them too much love. If you are still flooding them, you aren't following my advice anyway which completely defeats the purpose of trying to help you in the first place. At this point you need to get some roots down.
I have just got back from a weekend away working and will re read you thread about your enviornment tommorrow as I can hardly keep my eyes open.
P.S careful with the air con, if the condenser unit isn't outside the room it will suck all of your humidity out of the air, possibly more probs.


TTFN
Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - I'm going to follow your advice sub, I totally forgot about it to be honest. Is there any watering rotation you suggest?

To give some more info (I'll post pics later today) now the first and second sets of leaves are turning a grayish/whitish and shriviling up and dying which is now moving to the third set of leaves on almost every plant. The leaves start to slouch and then the tips get soft and start to turn grayish/whitish and it moves up the leaf until its totally shriviled up. I've had this issue before with prior plants as well. This isn't new. This death is not related to the white coloring I was getting on some of the leaves and I believe that to be a nute lockout of some kind, I mean the leaves were viritually white, and I've not had that happen before, but I thought it may be a combo of to little nutes, temperature, and maybe I'm not keeping it at the right PH (started at 5.6 steady and now between 5.8-6.0 from sub's recommendation).

Now, I've spent alot of time trying to figure out why I'm continually having problems and I think I may have somewhat answered at least a portion of it. The biggest difference I can think of between my grow, all your guys grows, and the place where I recieved my information is my blasted 40 gallon reservoir. First off, its not easy to manage 40 gallons of water EVERY week so I let it sit for two weeks and my grow store recommended that, possibily even longer. However, as has been said before alot of buildup occurs, the water gets stinky, and the ppm's just continue to shoot up. Also, a side affect to this large of a reservoir is that I cannot tell how much water these plants are taking in. Its so damn big I can't notice if the water level has changed unless I'm missing at least 3 gallons. 3 gallons in a 20 gallon reservoir however is very easily noticed and corrected, including that a 20 gallon is much easier to manage. To expound even further, my first grow was some swag beans that just took off initially but as they got larger, they started showing signs of nute burn which only got worse very rapidly. At the time I had no idea about ppm's and everyone told me I didn't need to add water because I'm using a 40 gallon reservoir. So, I would fill this 40 gallon with about 35 gallons (with 4tsp/gal. grow) every two weeks, add 1/2 strength nutes at the end of the first week, and then change the water on the second week without adding any more water at all. So here is the root of the problem at least with those particular first beans I tried growing. Now, with these plants in there that you've all seen, I know that isn't the problem, I've been adding a gallon at least of water every day and I damn near changed it all out after the end of the first week. I'm wondering if maybe I didn't clean my hydroton good enouph (which I really don't think I did, I soaked it in 1/2 strength h202 overnight and then rinsed it off from the faucet). Or maybe the water is getting kind of putrid but honestly I changed the water so damn much these last two weeks and they are still small that I can't think this is the issue. Lastly, where I got these beans, I just found out over the weekend that they could possibly be over 8 years old. Which may explain why they are being so tempermental as well.

I hope this extra information will enable you guys to come up with some more idea's because I'm out of them. As I said, with this particular grow right now I think that although the 40gal. reservoir has been the issue in the past, I don't think that it currently is the overall issue here, I'm thinking it may be the hydroton or the fact that the beans are so old or a combination of both. Also, I think I may be under-nuting them because for the last two weeks they have been at roughly 1/4tsp./gal. and the Ionic Grow bottle recommends 4tsp./gal. I'm starting to think these aren't going to make it either. As I said though, I'm going to try to swap the reservoirs this weekend (the only reason I'm not doing it right now is because I just drained the 40gal. cleaned it, and put fresh water/nutes/etc. in there so it should be good for a week).

[bertoxxulous]

Here are the photo's you requested.
[attachment=o216343] [attachment=o216344] [attachment=o216345] [attachment=o216346] [attachment=o216347]

[bertoxxulous]

More photo's...
[attachment=o216348] [attachment=o216349] [attachment=o216350] [attachment=o216351] [attachment=o216352]

Sorry that some of them are out of focus, my camera kinda sucks like that where the image looks clear in the display and turns out all unfocused.

[subzero]

bert, why do you ask for help then ignore it? wtf? Anyway, I am patient and will give it one last shot. FOCUS! You are definately over watering those plants flooding them several times a day. The root system is small, I know this because not much is happening up top, simple.
3ml per liter is 1/2 strength ionic dose which is 12ml per gallon @ 4L=1 gallon (check this as imperial and us gallons are different). 3ml is about 1 tsp, I just went and measured it. so.... from the above formula providing that 4l= 1 gallon I would give them 4 tsp per gallon 1/2 dose. I looked at a bottle of Ionic grow this very afternoon with you in mind. Our instructions say 7 ml per liter which is 2 and a bit teaspoons per liter, which works out at 9ish tsp per gallon full strength. Do you think something got lost in translation? Can you get a liter measure and a ml syringe to do your mixing? Maybe they printed the labels wrong, it has happened before although not with gt that i am aware. You want 4tsp gallon ½ strength, 9 tsp gallon full strength. Is this how you interpret the instructions on the bottle? If not I would email growth technology and find out what gives BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE. Something aint right here, it looks like they either changed the strength for the n/American market or they fucked up their math. If it is the latter, this would likely be why you are having problems and why nobody else uses it over there!

Want to try an experiment?
I would try hand watering your worst plant around the rockwool when the rockwool dries out a bit, once a day? with 4 tsp per gallon I /G = (1/2 strength according to uk instructions), ph 5.7- 6ish and see if it bursts into life after a week. I am betting it will.

I have a few more thoughts but would like to get to the bottom of this first. Let me know how you get on.

Subzero. :thumbsup:

[subzero]

here you are bert this is on their site

Hydroponics
Mineral Nutrition Liquid Silicon Liquid Oxygen Growth Enhancement

Mineral nutrition is essential for plants in hydroponic system. It is easy to grow great crops with well-managed mineral nutrients.

Seedlings and Clones

EC: 1.5 mS
pH: 5.8â??6.2
Change tank every 10â??14 days


Make up IONIC Grow in the nutrient tank.
Use Hard Water formulations if necessary.

Add Liquid Oxygen to the tank â?? it can be added daily at 5 ml per 20 litres or every 2 days at 5 ml per 10 litres.
Young plants can be foliar fed with Nitrozyme. Mix in clean water at 5 ml per litre. Mist the whole plant in low light.
Repeat weekly until last 4 weeks.
GreenFuse Root can be given to seedlings, clones and young plants. Mix in water at 1 ml per litre warm water into Rockwool or other media. Can also be misted over foliage.

Young Plants

EC: 1.8 mS
pH: 5.8â??6.2


Maintain nutrient at around 1.8 mS with pH around 6.
Add Liquid Silicon at 1ml per litre. Check and correct pH back to 6. Repeat weekly.
Liquid Oxygen daily if possible.
GreenFuse Grow can be added to the tank with every tank change. Follow instructions carefully.
Maintain throughout the life of the crop.

Early Flowering

EC: 2.0 mS
pH: 5.8â??6.2
Change tank every 7â??10 days


Make up IONIC Grow in the nutrient tank. It is a good idea to use the Grow formulation for the first week of flowering period. Then switch to Bloom.
Use Hard Water formulations if necessary.
Add Liquid Silicon at 1ml per litre. Check and correct pH back to 6. Repeat weekly.
Liquid Oxygen daily if possible.
GreenFuse Bloom can be added to the tank with every tank change. Add at 1â??2 ml per litre and mix thoroughly.
Maintain throughout the life of the crop.

Flowering

EC: 2.0 mS
pH: 5.8â??6.2
Change tank every 7 days


Make up IONIC BLOOM in the nutrient tank.
Add IONIC BOOST at 1 ml per litre of tank volume. Repeat twice weekly
Keep EC around 2.0 mS and pH at 6 or slightly under.
Add Liquid Silicon at 1ml per litre. Check and correct pH back to 6. Repeat weekly.
Liquid Oxygen daily if possible.
GreenFuse Bloom can be added to the tank with every tank change. Add at 1â??2 ml per litre and mix thoroughly.



Tank Changes â?? the sequence
1. Empty old tank â?? rinse thoroughly and fill with fresh water.
2. Use pump if possible to stir and agitate the water.
3. Add the appropriate IONIC nutrient solution â?? usually at around 7 ml per litre. Mix thoroughly.
4. Check EC â?? add more nutrient if necessary â?? mixing well until EC is at desired level (usually 1.5â??2 mS).
5. If using BOOST â?? add now at 1â??2 ml per litre in the tank. Mix well.
6. If using Liquid Silicon â?? add now at 1ml per litre of tank volume.
7. Check and correct the pH (ideal range 5.8â??6.2). Use pH DOWN to lower pH. If pH needs raising then Liquid Silicon is the best option.
8. Add Liquid Oxygen at the recommended rate and make a final check of pH before allowing nutrient to circulate to plants.
9. If GreenFuse (or any other organic additive) is being used, it should be added now. It may be a good idea to reduce the application of Liquid Oxygen to 50% of the recommended rate if using GreenFuse.

The IONIC Schedule is also available for download in pdf format - click here.

Subzero :stoned:

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - Very sorry, I wasn't trying to ignore you I honestly forgot you said to cut the watering down (have alot of stuff going on in my life right now so its been pretty crazy the last couple weeks). On another note, here is snap shot of my bottle stating "5ml per liter or 4 tsp per gallon" This is where I got the 4 tsp per gallon. It also says a target EC of 1.8 for most applications...per the chart at the bottom of the page HERE (http://cannabis.com/growing/ph-What_are_the_differences_between_ppm_and_EC.html) that would mean my target PPM for the nutrient solution would be 900ppm. As of right now, I've been keeping my overall ppm between 400-600 which means I'm only adding between 100-300ppm of the nutrient solution? So if I want to go 1/2 strength nute solution like your saying, I would go 450ppm nutes and with 300ppm water would put me at 750ppm?

[attachment=o216366] [attachment=o216367]

[bertoxxulous]

Wow, I just deleted everything I typed with one f'ing button....sigh. Anyways, what I was trying to say in a summary...my light times right now is 5pm-11am. My watering schedule is 4 times a day for 10 minutes at time (gives it just enouph time for the water to touch the bottom of the rockwool cubes for about 4 minutes). In my past 3 attempts I was watering 4 times a day for 30 minutes at a time and the water was totally submerging the rockwool cubes. Now I'm following subzero advice, and I cut the pump off before the lights kicked on yesterday (4/20/09) and watered them once at about 2am by hand pouring ~12oz. of water on the hydroton around the rockwool cubes per plant. When I checked in on the plants this morning at 8am (4/21/09) they seemed more droopy than where they were at yesterday. I will give an update when the lights kick on at 5pm later today.

[subzero]

Hi,
No worries, the rockwool must be moist, not soaking wet, 600-650 ppm (at x500 scale) is where I would run it. If they are drooping, water your worst one and wait 1/2 an hour then look again, if it has perked up they need more water. if not it is probably a heat issue. I understand that you are running the lights on at night and cant keep checking them but you wont get roots down properly if you overwater. 8 year old seeds aint great but usually it would be a germination problem and obviously that isnt the case otherwise we wouldn't be here now. Buttttt. If you want to do this seriously get some good seeds off the internet, not from a mate. Indicas are better for beginners than sativas. diseases can spread through seed stock as well so who knows what you are growing really.

The tent, please find time to read my thread on pvc tents on page 1 of sick plants. Don't be stubborn and discount this as a problem as i have been growing for years without a major problem until this issue bit me on the ass, and it bit me big time. I lost all confidence in growing and almost gave up. now I'm back a little more wise and things are looking bigger and better than ever.

I believed you about what the bottle said but i would still email gt and find out why the labels vary between the uk and canada.

Talk soon,
Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - I took a look at your post and plan on looking at that link you posted as well about this. I feel like I've damn near exhausted most of the possibilites of what could be causing all of these issues. Its beyond frustrating. I know I'm a new grower so I know it could be as simple as me just not knowing what the hell I'm doing but more and more I'm starting to feel like this may possibly be the issue. The biggest problem is that I lost the receipt for the intial purchase I made of all the equipment and threw the shoddy instructions that came with the tent because they WERE shoddy so I have no clue what make my tent is. Also, it has no label on it so again I don't know what type of tent it is. I would like to mention that the tent gave off a hardcore plastic type smell for a very long time until just recently its not noticable anymore. Infact the room had a real plasticy type smell for many months before it finally kind of dissapated. Also, everytime so far it always seems like its either a difficiency or nute burn. When I get home today I will water the most punked looking plant and see what happens to confirm if they are being underwatered at the moment. But again, this really may be a tent issue. SO, if that is the case, what do you recommend I do? Just take the actual tent portion off, leave the bars up, and just have the plants under the light like that for right now? I actually have two tents, both the same so I would have to take both of the covers off and get them out of the room for right now. I'm willing to do that, the only drawback for me right is the lack of money, otherwise I go rush off and buy another tent that I know doesn't have this issue, and I can't return these ones cause I don't have a receipt. So lets say I do at least take the tent covers off, leaving the plants just pretty much open in the room, its carpeted, and the walls have wallpaper that isn't white so I don't have alot of anything to do any reflecting, do you have any suggestions of what I could do? I think if I did this this week the plants are far gone enouph that it wouldn't be a waste of time. I just really really really want to have a successful grow before I close up shop till the fall. I want tear my hair out, seriously.

[icbh707]

first off, happy 420!!!
i thought your tent frame was made of metal not pvc? ive never used the tents i just staple the black and white plastic to the walls and floor if needed. im not sure about the advantages of the tents but i can tell you that plants grow just fine out of tents.
i think you need more airflow too. i always make sure there is a fan blowing just over the tops of the plants but never right on them. it helps move some of that hot air under the lights and also helps push oxygen molecules that have stuck to the plants microscopic hairs out of the way to make room for co2. you should also have some fresh air in that room as well.
the PM is powdery mildew. i think thats what you have on the hydroton. letting them dry out a bit should help. if you start to see it on your leaves later on you can use a sulfur burner to treat it.
overwatering is the most common mistake new growers make. and once in a while some pros still do it too... a lot of the people that i have helped think if they give them less water but still feed them the same amount of times a day that they are not overwatering. not true, they need to dry out between waterings. you need to feel the weight of the bag every time you check on them...every time, every bag. and after a while you will be able to feel when the bag starts to get light and when its really heavy with water. this is hard to teach to people that start with coco because they never listen to you or remember what you said about the weight and they look at the color of the coco on top of the pot and think that when it gets light in color that it is dry and if is dark its wet. thats not always the case. also when they are small its like the roots sit in suspended animation until the medium has dried out, then they finally pop. a few weeks back a trainee of mine had grape ape clones and half dried out after the first watering and half did not. after that the ones that dried out took off, the ones that didnt stayed the same size. when i came back to check about 10 days later he could not figure it out because he had watered the ones that never took off so much less than the others so he thought he was not overwatering. but he was still watering every day so they never got a chance to have that first dry out and so they never popped. i think it was 24-48 hours of no watering and they were off to the races. although this extended his veg time by about 2 weeks. :(
i always start with hand water DTW until they are about ready to flip. i also start with feeding 1oz at a time until they really start drying out fast. im now 72 hours into blue cheese clones and they are eating about 1oz every 12 hours. yesterday they started to pop so from today on some will eat more than others and i need to feel the weight of every pot to know which ones to water or not.
im not touching the ionic ppm stuff. like i said, im GH and at late veg am at about 800ppm. my blue cheese clones started at 450ppm and they are loving it. in about another 3 days i'll bump them up to about 600ppm, then to 800, after flip up to about 1000, and by the end im around 1200-1300+, GH says to push 1400 but they just want to sell more stuff.
im not sure whats up with the res but i use 18gal storage containers all the time for a cheap $5 res. for flushing or babies or whatever they work great as a small hand water res.
take pics of your equipment...please! lights, air pump and stones, testers, tent. i got no idea what your working with.
i did some less than perfect hydroton rinsing and it never caused any issues for me. its just clay dust as far as i know does nothing bad.

you guys ever try the cheese? i heard about it for a while and then a friend grew some, wow, i very happy high!!! not too strong just a very warm happy feeling...and sex is amazing after a few bong hits.
right now i have bubba kush, sour diesel, grape ape, lambs breath, and cheese and i wish they were all cheese...cant wait for the blue cheese...:bonghit:

[subzero]

I know how you feel, I was actually having panic attacks over my tent, really, serious panic attacks. Time was ticking away and I could not resolve my problems nohow.
Here is what I did to finally prove the point of my tent offgassing. Take one out, and get it under a light outside the tent, preferably in another room dont worry too much about fans or reflective surfaces for a minute and obviously handwater. If it starts to recover after a few days it is the tent. I took them out, they recovered, put them back in, they suffered after a few days. back out ok, back in suffered, I was that stubborn it took a month of doing this after trying everything else (throughout about 3months prior,different nutes, tanks, tank changes, different clones,high humidity, low humidity, different lamps, different water, everything!),Then I googled grow tent problems as an absolute last resort and found the link i posted. next day i took them out of the faulty tent and put them in my old one, it has been 2.5 weeks now and the plants that i thought i couldnt save (they were really, really bad, way worse than yours), have easily quadrupled in size and are really, really taking off now, started 12/12 yesterday. The reason I question the tent is that you havent had a successful grow in it yet have you? Growing good weed isn't that hard really, its not. most problems for new growers is overwatering or overfeeding, and with ionic i never, ever had a problem with nutes and we are experimenting with the watering, so i'm pretty sure it is an envornmental problem. If you got it on ebay or searched for the cheapest tent you could get it is almost certainly made of pvc. Hopefully, problem solved. The smell you mention says poison gasses to me. You dont seem to be getting any roots down which is almost more important than whats going on up top (no roots no shoots!) my problem exactly. plants dying from the bottom up? yep

If the plant outside the tent recovers (and it wont take long), take the covers off and get them out of your house, especially if you have pets or children, then get some white/black plastic from the hydroshop and cover the frame in it to make a temporary cover. dont buy pvc plastic obviously, make sure it is from a growshop! (until you can afford a homebox or 2) you should be able to get some stick on zippers off the net too. Don't forget to remove the drip tray as this will be made of the same nasty stuff!

Those leaves on the bottom look suspiciously familiar.

Keep me in the loop,
Subzero :jointsmile:

[bertoxxulous]

Ok so now I'm confused about the PVC, is it the reflective plastic that is made out of PVC that is the problem, or is the frame that is made out of PVC that is the problem? My understanding now is that its the white reflective part of the tent that is made out of the harmeful PVC stuff so I've already pulled the tent cover off of one tent and was in the process of pulling it off the other tent here soon...I did see though that the inside of the tent is made with 100% Polyamide in China. I know I'm screwing up alot of things here left and right it seems but even if this isn't the problem I've ruled it out as a potential problem. Got to wait for some help to get the rest of he cover off the grow tent because I can't lift the reservoir with 30gallons of water in it and move that tent cover at the same time.

On the watering thing...this morning the rockwool was still wet, not sopping wet but wet, and this evening its still wet, the plants are drooping more however so I just watered one of them to see what will happen. It seems the rockwool is retaining the water forever, its not drying out like it did when I was hand spraying them in my seedling tray where the rockwool got visably dry. So far in the hydroton they look really wet and when touched on top are varying degrees of wet, I'd say more than damp honestly. Should I let them dry out for a couple day till the rockwool is visably dry?

[subzero]

hi icbh,

It is the actual cover that i suspect is pvc not the poles.

Cheese was a clone only skunk number one, rare pheno from i believe(sensi sb), that was given out as clones, at the manor by the exodus group that organised huge "free parties" all around the m25 that runs around london, back in the good old days, apparently zorro from red eye magazine had to retire the original mother and teamed up or gave a cutting to big buddah who started selling the seeds I guess he selfed it.

I havent grown cheese but smoked it back in the late 90s, very, very stinky. Apparently buddas arent anywhere as good as the original. but I think that it is a bit like g13 in the states, everyone is trying to cash in.

:thumbsup:
Subzero

[subzero]

bert,
polamide, I'm not certain if it is pvc or not........ but china, well they have very few standards to adhere to for their exports and hydrohuts were ok until china added a little something to make manufacture cheaper their end, unknown to hydrohut. If the tent is white on the inside and it is made in china, who knows what is really in it? Remember the baby milk that killed all those children? Made in China. as was my tent. also i have heard of tents that are ok but the drip tray is pvc, also a possibility.

Let the r/w dry out, if there is moisture there, the plants will take it up before they wilt from dehydration.

Subzero.

[icbh707]

its funny, a lot the club owners and long time growers out here cant seem to find cheese clones or finished bud. but i think thats because its not really in demand out here right now by the general masses and whenever some does come around its snatched very quick by the people that know about it...anything purple is what the masses want and all the people i know that grow it, including myself, dont care for it. this grape ape i have would make most people shit their pants its so dark purple and sweet smelling but for me and most people i know we would rather smoke almost anything else. unless your a Jamaican living in cali you most likely never heard of the lambs breath but its a great high! its time for the rappers to start rapping about something other than "the grapes"
im so over purple!!!
i had to drive 6 hrs round trip to get my clones. i think they are from sensi seed, first cuttings off fresh mothers.

[subzero]

Nobody I know grows anything purple, Check out big buddas seeds for the cheese, and blue cheese, start a trend! Fast sativas are in over here, cindy99
crosses and the like. Cindy 99 is easy to rhyme, mabey you could rap about it too

Have fun with the cheese.
Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

So, I went and bought some white/black stuff like you said and 9 hours (yes 9) later I've finished re-doing the tent. I will say one thing though that the closet where I was doing my seedlings in had water damage on the plywood shelf up top that I had my smaller light attached to for seedlings so I replaced that and got that all set up again, and tore down the other tent entirely (it was ment to be a clone mother tent but thats going to be farther down the road for me I'm afraid and when I get my hands on some good seeds I'll re-builed it again). I also had built the tent wrong because as I said earlier the directions had no words just some illegable pictures on them so I went about fixing the tent so my lights are now in line with my E&F instead of perpendicular and I put those low hanging poles up top and made a ghetto sling for my exhaust fan with some duct tape. Speaking of, duct tape, its not going to create some kind of offgas situation or something is it? Also one big thing I also noticed...after getting those tents out of the house, the lack of smell in that room is almost overwhelming (plastic/sourish smell). I was actually astonished because I guess I've become used to the smell, so I really thing all this hard work really paid off even if it might not be the tents causing my issues. Well, I'm freaking beat so I'm going to hit the sack (started working in there at 5pm when lights kicked on and now its 2:30am my time). Lastly, after hand watering the plants they immediatly started moving with leaves turning and such and then later this evening they had perked up noticably so I'm starting to think its underwatering and I'll tell you why I think it is, including the results after handwater of course...Previously, on X-Men, I was watering them 4 times a day for 30 minute at a time and it NEVER showed signs of over-watering...it always looked like nute burn that started on the bottom leaves and worked its way up. Now, since these plants have been in my E&F for what 3 weeks now I've been watering them 4 times a day for 10 minutes at a time but really they are maybe getting <5 minutes of water because it take about 5 minutes to fully flood my flood table. This is my hypothesis after seeing the plants reaction to being watered today. Lastly, doods at the grow store said I should be using more Ionic than I am right now as well and I think you may have already mentioned that yourself but I have kicked it up to 1/4 strength with the hand watering and the grow store guys were telling me thats still too little. Well guys, tell me what you think about all this wall of text, and here are the pics...

[attachment=o216506] [attachment=o216507]

[subzero]

Bert, those lights are flourescent tubes mate!, drop them down to about a foot above the plants and fill up the ballast with everything you got, you should be able to get them even closer than that without burning them, they hardly put out any heat at all or lumens really. Also are you blowing air through your carbon filter? You should have the can inside the tent attached to the fan SUCKING it through.

Overwatering effects lower leaves if you dont have much of a root system but if they perked up after watering flood them, but maybe only twice a day.


Got to go mate, I think you are getting on track now.
Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - Actually, I don't have a carbon filter at all right now. That top can is exhaust and that box duct taped on the left side of the tent in the second picture with the plants is actually a cardboard & duct tape rig I made so the intake fan wasn't blowing directly on the plants, so it blows down instead. Also, checked the plants this morning around 8:00AM and the looked noticabely better. I think I may actually be on track like you said but I don't want to get my hopes too high haha. I really think that the tents were the biggest issue like you said and I wished I had done this earlier but thought it was one of those last ditch effort things that I didn't want to mess with but now I don't regret it at all even if these ones don't work out because there is no more smell in the room. In fact, with the door open it used to stink the whole house up with that smell and it is no longer there. I really appreciate all the help you've provided me with because I would have never assumed the tent would have even been a possible issue. I mean I bought the damn tents from a grow store, you'd think they wouldn't sell you something like that. I will post pictures of the plants this weekend so they should have a couple more days to recooperate and hopefully start looking better. Lastly, I'll turn the other 4 tubes on and drop the ballast down this evening when I get back home. Cheers!

[subzero]

Bert

I know, I couldn't get my head around the tents either, I just couldn't accept it. Problem was my new set up just fit in the excecution tent and to change back to my old one meant to change back to my smaller system without giving my new stuff a try. I tried everything else, it had to be the new carpet in the room or the tent.

You will need a carbon filter quite soon as ak 47 stinks like skunk, as soon as they take off it will reek all through your house. If i understand what you were saying about your fan at the bottom, let it blow on the plants, it will strengthen the stems and help them breathe better (lights on only). I dont blow any air in, I open the vents at the bottom and let the exaust fan suck through, never had any ventelation problems. If you are serious, get a 6oo watt duel spectrum sodium lamp in there when you flower or ideally a few weeks before, even a cheap ebay ballast/ reflector/ lamp kit made for specificly for your purpose will do for now. I know for a fact that you will not yeild well if thats all the light you have. I know more expense, but it will pay for itself in 2 months time.

Other than that, just keep everything clean, and don't change too many variables at once.

Look forward to an update in a few days.

Subzero :thumbsup:

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - I've got an Ozone generator that seems to have worked well when I was keeping the door shut during the winter but I'm not sure how affective it will be having to keep the door open due to the heat. About the lights....they were recommended to me because they supposedly aren't just regular flourescents. They are T5 Metal Halides that supposedly put out mega lumins are run very cool in comparison to other lighting options. I also have 4x T5 red spectrum lights that I'm suppose to use for the bloom cycle. I'll take some pictures again this weekend (plan on doing at the end of every week to show progress), but right now they are looking much better than they did yesterday. Again, thanks for all the help I don't think I'd have ever figured this one out otherwise. Plus I'm lucky to talk to someone who is knowledgable about Ionic as well which has helped me understand more of just what I'm working with. I really think I'm undernuting the plants and I'm going to do a full drain and put in 2.5 tsp/gal. this weekend.

[icbh707]

yep, t5 thats what i thought you were using. i had one for a while but never really used it. a friend has one he uses for early veg and likes it for that. but i would not use it to flower. like sub said a 600 hid or like he was saying about 2 400 8" apart. im not sure if you trays big enough. i bet you could get 300-400g off a 600w. also my buddy keeps his t5 i think about 8-12in above the tops.
do you know the cfm of that fan?
i would make both of those fans exhaust and use a vent opening for intake like what sub was saying. i like to get one of those 3m heppa filters for $3 at home depot and rig that to filter the incoming air. i do that for my hoods as well and it keeps the glass nice and clean.
are you going to top? supercrop? scrog?


im happy things are looking so well, keep up the good work. :thumbsup:

[bertoxxulous]

@icbh707 - So you don't think the red spectrum T5's are any good? I'm not sure about the cfm of the fans off the top of my head but I can get that info later when I get home. The intake fan is specifically ment for that purpose and I don't think it was ment to be inter-changable. Lastly, being my newbie self I don't know what top or supercrop means, and I think scrog means screen of green right? I really never considered doing that, I was just going to grow them ?normal? I suppose and if they got too tall just tie them down but I don't plan on growing till the fall if I can get a harvest from these so I don't have any plans of maintaining a clone mother or anything like that.

[icbh707]

well i know those t5 lights arent cheap and i dont know what those red spectrum tubes will do as far as yield goes but i do know what you could get from a 400 600 or 1000 hid. but really i never heard back from you about being able to vent out of that room so those hid lights may not work because of heat. although im vegging my blue cheese babies under a 400mh on my bathroom counter top with only the bathroom exhaust fan going and its staying around 78-80f. i bet if i were to flower under that 400 i could get around 300g. but hey the t5 might do the same with less heat for all i know but it will never do as well as a 600 or 1000 hps. put it this way, i cut down my kush yesterday and am very unhappy with the size but i think i will end up with about 550g/1000hps. i couldnt get clones from my normal guy and had to get some from a guy i dont know and this is what happens. when i ran 600s for years i would get about 450g/600hps. i never finished with 400hps but i hear theyre very energy efficient .
im going to top today, i'll take a few pics for you in case you want to try it. im also going to build that vented door soon and ill get you a few pics of that as well.
scrog is a nice low stress way of spreading out the plants and keeping them low but again you cant move them around which i do a lot of.
i top, and supercrop if i have to, or to help trigger the purp to trun purp...i'll be doing that in about 10days on some grape ape.
you will need a carbon filter for sure. about 5 weeks into flower you wont be able to leave clothes near the room because it will stink them up so bad and by the time youre ready to cut youll be able to smell it from my house.;)

[subzero]

Can someone please explain to me exactly what a t5 is? I have never heard of them over here? Surely your not meant to flower under just that??? are you. Icbh how many watts are they? Must get a decent lamp as soon as you are sure they are recovering. you must.

Bert, ozone is great but too much is bad for you and your plants. I use it when I'm drying alot it works great but for the money I would get a carbon filter on there and treat the ozone with a bit of caution.

Glad things are getting better.
Subzero. :thumbsup:

[icbh707]

the t5 is just a high output fluorescent. i think mine was about the same size as berts and i think i was told it was like using a 250w hid but with about half the watts used. the good; evenly covers a larger area with less heat and uses less power. the bad; its not an hid...yield/m2 will not come even close.
heres a site that sells bulbs and has the lumens for each. t5 blows away normal tubes but comes no where near the hid bulbs.
seeing my buddy veg under the t5 is the reason i never really used mine. after a couple weeks of veg his ladies were always skinny and small and needed some time under his 600mh before he put them under his 1000hps. where as the ones i vegged under a 600mh were topped and ready to flip after about 2 weeks. i have no info on the red spectrum tubes or yields in general under the t5.
put it this way, my yield/watt ratio was better when i used 600s but my yield/m2 is better with 1000s. and theres the rub... the more power you use the more you waste. but i only have so much grow area and want to get the most out of it even if i have to use more power and control heat. i like your idea of the 2 400w. sounds like your getting about 1000w of yield with 800w of power. i still need to study up on the nft. my hydro store guys calls it old school method.

[icbh707]

oops...site for bulbs...
T5 high output Fluorescent, Metal halide, high pressure sodium and fluorescent growlight replacement or conversion Bulbs from 4 hydroponics.com by Growco Indoor Garden Supply (http://www.4hydroponics.com/order/bulbs.asp)

[subzero]

icbh, have a look here, for gt1oo it's what i'm using. Surely e/f is more oldschool than nft?? I dunno but I like it!

Hydroponics lights kits systems, grow tents, organic & alternative gardening products (http://www.greenshorticulture.co.uk/)

bert, i think you need to find another grow shop if they sell poison tents and reccomend those lights for flowering. Looking at the price of them, you should have just got a few normal blue spectrum flourescents for veg and spent the rest on a hps, i do actually like the dual spectrum hps they are great for a beginner and it would save you from buying a big m/h for only a few weeks of veg when the t5's aren't sufficent.

Anyway,

HAVE A NICE DAY!
Subzero. :)

[icbh707]

shit man thats cheap! and i pay just above wholesale at my hydroshop because of all the people i send their way. im going to pick one up and figure out a spot to try it out. i already have a 600 but i think ill get another 400 and try your whole set up...although im going to stick with GH for now.
hey, theres no school like the old school and that guy is so young that anything would be old school to him.
i think ill do a scrog method when i try your setup. ill need to support them and wont be able to move them around anyway.

[bertoxxulous]

Well now, I read all you guys posts about the lights and such, and I agree with you in sheer numbers and amount of lumens produced but there is one thing that I think should be clarified. I actually read the label on one of my red spectrum bulbs and it says its a T5 HO (High Output) which puts it at a level above the regular T5's as well. Now, I'm kinda of retarded and couldn't figure out exactly how much lumens it actually produces but the best I can come up with was on a .pdf file for the brand of T5-HO's I have and it says "Initial Lumens" of 5000 and the light was 54Watt. So I'm wondering like if I have 380Watt Ballast does that still mean I get 5000 lumens or do you divide 380W by 54W and then mulitply times 5000 lumens? Anyways something to ponder on, here are the latest pics of my plants. Running tap water + Ionic Grow total ppm of [email protected] and PH of 6.0. Also, I think I'm going to see what can be accomplished by what I've got right just now and maybe this will be a good learning experience for all of us here too :D

[attachment=o216812] [attachment=o216813] [attachment=o216814] [attachment=o216815] [attachment=o216816]


Keep in mind in my last post on the 23rd was only 3 days ago and look how much they have improved its insane. Damn those smelly tents! Wow, I would have never ever figured this out on my own and its kind of ironic because they are so smelly the problem was right under my nose the whole damn time! :wtf:

[subzero]

Yes, they look better now, you will get 5000 lumens out of each bulb, you would need 18 of those lamps to equal 1x 600watt sunmaster hps.

You can grow weed just about anywhere except a tent built specifically for that purpose, it is insane I know. Welcome to the world of chinese knock offs!
I googled polamer and I am pretty sure that it is the black nylon stuff on the outside, not the white reflective surface on the inside, so only by the recovery photos i would say its pvc.
On the upside, if you had a hid lamp in there the heat would have released more poison and your plants would be dead by now, so I guess you got lucky?????

Stick to the feeding schedule, and givem another couple of weeks of recovery and you should be good to go.

Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

Hey guys, just wanted to drop an and mention some things that I've noticed. The serrated edges of my leaves are curling up...a sign of heat stress from my lights maybe? Also, some of the lower leaves are starting to turn whitish progressively...but they were leaves that were still present during the time of the offgass tent cover so I'm assuming they are probably going to die anyways and I should be more worried about negative signs in my new growth instead correct? So far I haven't noticed any issues with my new growth other than the serrated edges curling up, but their color is fine and they overall look quite healthy.

P.S. Yea I'm pretty screwed on my lights aren't I? I think I will at least go with something like you suggested for my bloom cycle when the fall rolls around but I definately couldn't deal with that kind of heat right now. I really have no way to discreetly get that amount of heat out of that particular room so I'm basically going to have to wait till the temp. outside drops again in the fall.

[syde00]

Heya bertox :)

first of all... just have to get this out of the way, thought about it a few days ago when i figured checked out this thread... but i love the name lol, you are clearly a EQ1 or 2 fan :)

as for your question about the balast watts vs. the bulb watts... go with the bulb watts - i am not 100% certain on what the rating is on the balast, but if i were going to hazard a guess, i'd say that is the balast's maximum power output (so basically you total up the wattage of all the bulbs in the balast, and if that total exceeds the rating on the balast - you have a problem).

the balast plays no role in the actual output of the bulb (assuming the balast provides the amount of power that the bulb requests.. if it can;t provide enough power, obviously that will impact the bulb output... but you are never going to get more than the bulb's specifications)

I'd like to comment about your discoloured parts... but i don;t really think i know enough to say what it could be... but i have read several people say things like "old growth = old problems"... of course like many of the rules, that is just a general guideline, and there are several deficencies that can appear first in old growth before moving onto the newer growth... i'd keep an eye on it and just make sure it doesn't seem to be getting worse... but hopefully somebody more well-versed in troubleshooting will chime in and give you some good advice

good luck! :rastasmoke:

[subzero]

I bert,
look here for your curling leaves
Marijuana Plants Problems - Yellow Leaves, brown spots, nutrient shortage etc. (http://www.marijuana-seeds.net/Thanks-ThankYou.htm)
Scroll down there is a good troubleshooter there.
Possible heat stress but photos as always would help

In my excecution chamber, the leaves that recovered eventually died after greening up, the damage was already done. New growth should be speeding up by now. Don't worry about the growth that was there in the tent but keep an eye on the new growth, I am certain that you won't have defficencies with ionic soft water at the strength of the solution you are using now. A tower fan blowing across your plants wouldn't hurt either.

Keep us in the loop

Subzero :smokin:

[Divestoned]

When the serated edge's of my leave's curl..It's time to recheck the PH.

Dive:stoned:

[bertoxxulous]

Well I took some pictures of the leaves that were turning white/yellow and they ended up getting deleted. The best way to describe what they look like on the lower leaves is Nitrogen deficiency. Now, to take this into consideration, all the leaves that are showing what looks like Nitrogen deficiency were still around with the original tent enclosure and I believe that is why they are looking bad/dying. I have still not seen any signs of this with the new growth and there are now some rather large fan leaves that are just looking better than I've ever seen so far in my tent. This has now been the best I've ever seen plants looking in my tent. I am almost totally positive that the major issue here was the tent with some additional underlying issues that have sense been resolved I believe (nutrient levels, flood depth, etc).

I think the other major problem I had was that I wasn't ever adding water and I changed the reservoir out every 2 weeks (this was before I purchased a PPM pen btw) so the PPM in the water was getting quite out of hand and I didn't know any better at the time. So to correct this problem what I am currently doing is this (began after a reservoir change this last weekend):
1) 20gallons of tap that set out overnight, 2 tsp./gal. of Ionic Grow (keep in mind I'm using a 40gallon reservoir...and my pump is still submerged when I flood with only 20gal. in the reservoir)
2) Every day I add 1 gallon of tap water with 1 tsp. of Ionic Grow

So far, my PPM's have stayed steadily at [email protected] and my PH has dropped lowest to 5.7 but adding the tap water nocks it back up into the 5.8-5.9 range. I think this is probably just going to be my standard rotation from now on. The only modification to this is maybe upping the PPM weekly between my 2 week reservoir changes.

I think the other major hurdle I'm going to have to cross is the lighting problem that you guys have very much defined for me, thanks everyone for describing that so that I could understand...and I fully understand now. I have a option that I wanted to run past you guys and see if you have any recommendations for placement on this....I have a 4 slot T5 ballast that I could throw 4 more T5 HO lights in which would be another 20,000 Lumens. Where do you think I should put it in the tent? My best solution, or what I think would be to mount it on either the left or right side of the tent and hang perpendicular to the floor. The only issue I find with this is that only one side of the plants would be getting the extra light, or the majority of it, and if that would cause any problems because the lighting displacement would not be even. What do you guys think?

P.S. @Divestoned - I bet Rusty would think the same of me (your sig). Its been like a dog and pony show over here.

[subzero]

Bert,

Get them in there (the additional lights) every bit will help. Can you get them beside or in front of the other lights sideways maybe? its kind of hard to see how much horizontal space you have left but flat above is the best option imo. Otherwise any which way you can, more light the better. I agree with your upping the nutes every tank change but if you see the leaf tips burn a bit, back off next change or add more water. ph is perfect, keep an eye on the new growth, you just didn't stand a chance with that tent.

Yes, Rusty would probabaly have said that to you (he reckons I dont know shit by the way). He is a knowledgeable person but he sounds off like a complete twat over and over again. A self acclaimed king with a chip on his shoulder in my opinion. Best to read most of what he says and ignore the unnessesary attitude and rudeness to others. If he ever spoke to me or anyone else in my presence as he does on these threads, I would take his head off in a heartbeat.

Hope you get some pic's up soon.

Subzero ;)

[bertoxxulous]

Hey guys, sorry I haven't checked in earlier but I have got some pretty, what I would consider amazing pics from how punked they were looking only a week ago. Due to the fact they are looking so much better I've just started them on a 12/12 bloom cycle that just started today at 8pm and will obviously end at 8am from now on. A week ago when I filled the reservoir I filled with half strength Ionic Grow (2 tsp/gal) which put me at [email protected] with 20 gallons in my 40 gallon reservoir. Every day since then I've added 1 gallon of tap water that sat out overnight with 1 tsp of Ionic Grow every day shortly after the lights kick on. Today, and for the rest of the week I will be adding 1 gallon of water with 3 tsp of Ionic Grow because I believe some of the new growth is starting to show some signs of under-nute as you will see with these pics in a couple of shots. I've maintained a PH of between 5.7-6.0 and between [email protected] all week by ONLY adding that 1 gallon of tap with 1 tsp of Ionic Grow so thats been working out very well. The plants are just now starting to give off some skunky aroma's but nothing really overpowering at all. Still debating what I want to do to solve the carbon filter problem. I think maybe tommorow I'm going to figure out how I want to rig that other Ballast in there but I do have one question...Do you think its ok if I just go with the T5 HO Metal Halides in that 4 light ballast or should I go all red spectrum ones? Right now in my 8 light ballast I'll be sitting at 4 MH and 4 of the red spectrum ones. I was thinking about going to the store this week and just getting 8 more of the red spectrum ones and putting it in both ballasts. That again would put me at an overall lumen count of 60,000 within an 800 cubic inch enclosure.

On another note about the Curling serrated parts of my leaves, I also have a picture of that as well. If that is a PH problem I've been sitting mostly between 5.9-6.0 all week....should I drop it to like 5.6-5.8 then???

Alrighty, Here are the pics, tell me what you think guys!!!

[attachment=o217254] [attachment=o217255] [attachment=o217256] [attachment=o217257] [attachment=o217258]

[Divestoned]

Yes that is a PH issue.Go ahead and drop it a few point's we'll see how that goes.Aside from that they look way better.

Dive:stoned:

[bertoxxulous]

@Divestoned - Awsome, I'll nock it down later today when the lights turn on at 8pm EST. I thought it was the lights causing it at first but after everyone was telling me to drop the lights on top of them and explained the whole light situation to me it wasn't making sense why they would be curling like that. I've seen in a sick plant guide where curling light that could be due to a heat issue so I just assumed that was what was going on although my lights hardly put out any heat at all.

On a side note, I saw a discussion about UVB...I'm really not sure what got me reading it in the first place but....one of the posters mentioned he was using T5 VHO (Very High Output) where he's pushing like 85W through a regular T5 HO bulb thats rated for 53W like I'm using. I need to investigate this more and post my findings. I know I'd have to replace my ballast at that point and I'm starting to think I might as well go with like HID/HPS if I'm going to replace my ballast anyways but I'll see what I kind find.

One last question...if these were AK-47 for sure, would they be really stinky at this point? I mean, the largest of the plants is over 12 inchs now and my first grow I tried in the old tent seemed more stinky than these have been so far...Of course my first grow was like a one of those assorted jelly belly bags or something of swag seeds..I had no clue what any of them were and I think they were all different lol. Course they died a horrible death in the old tent.

[subzero]

bert,
it is okay to mix the lights up, go blue red blue red ect.

yes drop the ph and let it slowly rise to about 6ish before recorrecting it if you have to at all.

yes it will stink i would get a filter soon!

85 watts through a 53 watt light? I dunno but it don"t sound safe to me.
I bet the bulb has a shorter lifespan.

Get a hps sodium instead of new ballasts.

Full strength now. They are really starting to take off now, Good job!

Keep it up bert they look great!

Subzero :thumbsup:

[subzero]

Just a thought.

Those went in as seeds didn't they??
If so, you will need to start looking for males soon, they will likely be the tallest skinniest ones.

Subzero :)

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - ok thats what I thought about the lights. I'll have to go buy a couple more of the red ones. Luckly they aren't too expensive. Hmmm...I've seen alot of different creative suggestions about carbon filters, is there any particular brand or design of carbon filter you recommend?

Yea after this grow I'm definately going HPS and prolly HID. I really don't want to have to deal with heat again so I'll definately be growing mainly in the cooler months.

You think I should continue to use grow for 2 more weeks? I was thinking about going straight bloom this comming weekend....

Couldn't have done it without your help man....definately to obscure for me to have figured it out on my own! This is really exciting, I've never seen such good plants in my tent haha.

Yes they are seeds....Thats why I decided to flip them to 12/12 yesterday so I could sex them but I'm just going to keep them 12/12 from now on. Isn't that considered SOG...going 12/12 early I mean with alot of plants instead of growing a few large ones? Topping sounds interesting but I need to get the basics down and maybe a successful harvest or 3 under my belt.

[subzero]

Bert,

10 days from the day you start flowering would be my choice for veg nutes, get as many roots down as possible.

Carbon filters come in many shapes, sizes and prices. I buy the cheapest that i can get as long as they are refillable. You dont need to worry so much if you have to repack it once a year using a cheaper one. rather than pay alot more for a 18month or 2 year one that you could also repack.

Sea of green really is about lots of small plants (probably 50 in your space)
usually clones are flowered as soon as they are rooted. You dont really have enough plants and you vegged for a week(ish),to be called sea of green but it dont matter what style anyway.

When one of your plants start to stretch pinch out the top above 2 nodes on the main stem just to see the result on a finished plant as an experiment. it will show you some helpful info for future grows.
Looking good.

Gotta eat now. :thumbsup:

Subzero

[subzero]

Ooops forgot, you have enough lumens of t5s to veg in my opinion without a Hid (mh). Get a 600w hps sodium ( i would reccomend a sunmaster dual spectrum), not a 1000 if heat is your main problem after the filter is sorted out.

Food now,

Subzero

[bertoxxulous]

@syde00 - Thanks for the complement lol. I miss playing EQ, it was really a great game...I have sense moved on though. Sorry for not replying to this sooner I must of missed it.

@subzero - Hey man. Yea for this particular grow I'm just going to bring that other 4 light ballast in maybe today or tommorow with 4 MH. I think I'm going to mount it on the left side of the tent below the fan slightly angled so that the undergrowth will receive more light. Once I start up again in the fall, by that time I should have enouph to afford a new light. I'm kinda torn on what I want to spend my money on because although I want to go RO and stuff a light is probably more important and I think I'm going to have to prioritize what I want instead of going hog wild and buying up a bunch of shit at once again. I really think I'll need some more practice before I starting adding more things into the mix but for some reason RO just seems really attractive to me but so far just straight tap has been working out fine.

About topping...so what your saying is for me to pinch off the middle node of the main stem where its comming out in a 3 node right? Like...one node is a leaf going left, the other going right and then the one in the middle...I would pinch off the one in the middle? On this subject however I really did screw myself early on because I wasn't using the light I wanted too, and was too gun shy about the light burning the seeldings up so they streched way to much, not to mention that were in the tent from the very beginning so this has really been less than optimal for at least 4 weeks I believe? Before I went rebuilding the tent and such.

Welp, I'm rambling again...on a last note, that nute deficiency I said I saw, well I upped the nutes to 3tsp/gal. and they are already back with the new growth all nice and darker green instead of that splotchy yellow stuff so that was definately what was going on there. I haven't yet noticed the changes of the lowered PH yet.

[subzero]

Bert, If it were me I would forget ro for a minute, get some hw ionic. your water is working fine. RO is another learning curve, I know it sounds great but if you arent careful and experienced with it you will get defficincies as most hydro nutes are made for tap with some micronutes already in it, especially ionic. You need to get a couple of grows in before you start changing too much, too fast. The day for RO will come!

You need, in this order

1 carbon filter. I can't stress this enough, :asskick: get on it before it gets really smelly. you only need one person to smell it and its game over my friend.

2 Proper light for flowering.

3 Get some ventilation in some how, or an air conditioner (propery installed for this application) for next grow.

Yes topping, the idea is to take the middle out between the 2 nodes. Where you have taken the top out, the 2 nodes become tops (2 for 1), if when the nodes turn to branches and you repeat, it doubles again, ect,ect. You get a short bushy plant with lots of tops. Lots of threads around so just google it.
I'm more of a bender than a topper!

Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - I will definately have a carbon filter by this weekend. I did just walk in the room (lights still out) and I got a pretty solid whif of some skunky so it's getting close.

I know this going to fly in the face of your recommendations but I just don't have the money to afford a 600W HPS right now, or any for that matter. I'm going to have to go with what I've got and hope for the best. I will take a picture of my ballast later this week so you can see exactly what these red spectrum T5 look like.

I had earlier mentioned that we had kept the door open since there is no ventilation going in the room, but to further develop that statement...I have a box fan at the entrance where there door is blowing air in...and there is an airconditioner not far behind this box fan so its blowing fairly cool air into the room 24/7 right now. I think my biggest hurtle is going to be containing the smell. I think my main issue is that the ozone machine works great but I'm having to leave the door open and the exhaust right now just stops at the top of the tent blowing into the room. Now in the fall when I had some stinky plants in there I had the door shut and the ozone machine did a fine job killing the smell with the door shut but now that its open that a whole nother problem.

I'm actually trying to think of something semi-creative where I could build that ozone generator into the pipeline of some kind of exhaust from the tent cause those things really do work great the only downside I see to it is that its got an internal 15 minute timer that makes it shut off every 15 minutes so I'm trying to figure out how to work around that. I could just as easily go buy the specially made ones for grow tents from the grow store but I was wondering if they really had mj in mind when making it because I've seen another one purchased from a grow store and it didn't seem to make a difference at all from what I could tell. Thats why I was kind of interested in some kind of home-made jobby that I might be able to incorporate that ozone so: 1) I'm not just exhausting in the room 2) safety with the ozone maker cause I can exhaust where I want it too and I have some kitties. I was even thinking of something like...exhaust into a plywood box that has the ozone generator in it (or some type of encloser) then that gets blown into a charcoal filter, and then exhausted out after that. So maybe the charcoal filter would also filter that ozone as well to kill some of that chlorinated smell it creates. What you think eh?

Yea I think topping would probably be a good idea for my setup too, maybe even cut down on the amount of plants I'm growing. I'll have to start researching that, I've been spending most of my time looking at flowering cycle and harvesting information recently. Speaking of, how do you typically harvest? I know you said about a 10 day flush. From all that I've read I was going to do flush for 7-10 days maybe, hang em for about a week till the snap off, put them in brown paper bag for another 3-5 days then airtight container for I don't know how long. Does that sound about right (I'm really getting ahead of myself here aren't I? lol)?

[subzero]

bert,

the carbon filter will get rid of your smell problem 99.99% as long as you dont have many leaks on the tent. you can run the exhaust fan all the time now your roots are down. i have an ozone generator and hardly use it ever.

You must suck through the filter not blow.

The light... I appreciate you cant afford this all at once. the lights you have now should do the job this time. but I was really trying to put you off ro water as a priority, other things would better your grow for the money.

On the subject of topping, some strains don't like it, chronic for example, produces less when topped so get to know the strain before you go too crazy!

Yes, sounds like a good way to harvest, cool, dry and dark.

Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - Well I've made my mind up for a carbon filter...I think I'm going to go with this DIY one HERE (http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-faqs/99371-diy-how-carbon-filter.html). You think it will be just as good as any other one? I don't see why not...I think its pure genius...should be fun to build :thumbsup:

I'm it total agreement with you about the water man. I think for now investing in lights is more of a priority than RO water. I need to get the hang of just growing with what I've got first before I get too fancy and RO water is probably a little to rich for my blood right now with my lack of experience.

:apachecopter:

[bertoxxulous]

Also, something else I ment to add...I'm hoping my plants show their sex soon, its getting pretty crowded in there. They have now been in 4 days on 12/12...today will be the 5th starting at 8pm. I also got that 20k lumin ballast installed yesterday right below the box fan at a 45 degree angle. I'll take some pictures of my setup after I get that carbon filter built and installed. I think I'm just going to go buy the parts today.

[subzero]

Thats quite the diy endeavor! should work fine though. :thumbsup:

They will show sex soon, have patience. look for balls on the tallest ones,at the nodes they will probably show first (the males).

good luck with the filter.

Subzero :)

[bertoxxulous]

So....I retake my comment about that carbon filter being fun to build. My hands make me look like I just got out of a bar fight where glass was involved...:blueknife:

[attachment=o217496] [attachment=o217497] [attachment=o217498] [attachment=o217499]

[Divestoned]

Look's real nice Bert,Good Job.

Dive:stoned:

[subzero]

Nice job bert! Let me know how it is working!

When you mentioned building one i thought it may be a bit more difficult than expected but it looks really good. how much did it cost to make in the end?

Talk soon
Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

Thanks guys! It was harder than I thought it was going to be. Biggest problem was, you have to buy a single spool of the chicken wire so I had to cut it down, which left sharp edges that I bent down so the panty hose wouldn't get runs but it ended up acting as hooks when I screwed up and had to pull the panty hose off again. I actually ruined 3 legs that I had cut up in the process. My recommendation that would have made it way easier and I wouldn't have got so damn bloodied up was to go shop at the "Big Lady" store and bought some big ass panty hose that could actually fit over a 6" diameter chicken wire cylinder. I bought the Q+ size from a regular supermarket store. I was the largest size they had, and was definately not big enouph. I think this would have been alot easier if I had bigger panty hose. Total cost ~90 USD. I bought some other shit at the hardware store but subtracting that, yea roughly $90, maybe a little less. Activated carbon was over $30 by itself so I think thats pretty reasonable. I think next time I'm going to wait and see if there is sell at the pet store to go buy that carbon. I can already tell that its making a difference. What little odor there was so far its definately neutralized. I'll have to give an update on it as the the plants progress. Oh, one other thing I forgot about...I ended up using a 3" plumbing end cap instead of the recommended 4" and I'll tell you why. The reducer I found (only one they had) didn't have that lip on the inside so I shoved the chicken wire all the way to the inside of the 4" side of the reducer and the chicken wire around the 3" cap fit perfectly inside there. The 6" chicken wire cyclinder I measured 1/2" above the inside cylinder, I think it was roughly 11" height. If anyone decides to do this I hope that helps. Cheers!

[bertoxxulous]

Some bad news guys. I just pulled 8 plants of the 12. All males. The remaining four, 2 are definately females, other two not sure yet but they are looking like males also. Would herms show themselves this early? I'm thinking there is a chance these two are if that is the case because they were so stressed till just resently. I think I may put my 20gal. reservoir and smaller flood table in the tent and push these two females to harvest. I may just say screw it and grow through the summer =p. Do it right this time probably get alot better results now that I think I've figured out what all my problems have been. I feel alot more confident I could do alot better with my next grow.

Something else I haven't mentioned but if you are wondering why those plants exploded so quickly after fixing the tent...I started running CO2 in there. When I started it was recommended to me. I have a regulator specifically for hydro but my tank ran out cause I used it on a previous grow and used most of it then. I keep it specifically for the size tent with the chart that comes with the regulator, which is not much really. I did 15 minutes of CO2, 15 minutes of no exhaust, then exhaust kicks on 15 minutes after CO2 shuts off. 7 rotations a a light cycle.

[subzero]

Hi bert,
Sorry to hear about your males, I was worried as you know about the quality of seed stock you are using. If they came from a female that had some seeds chances are they have hermie genes in at least some of em.

Femaleseeds.nl has some female ak seeds, they are the only female seed co that I would trust.

The co2 is great and you can run higher temps with it, but really it is something else that newbee's buy before they get their head around growing.

I used to use it but the heat from a big sodium when your fan is off for 15 min will stress the plants more than the good it will do imo. I used it for a while but the expense outweighed the benifit for my application.

The explosive growth was down to the fact that you finally got some roots down, not so much the co2 for such small plants, there is enough co2 in the air with your door open and a fan blowing in to grow out those 2 plants without it, should you go that root!

What I would do now is grow out the ones you have now (females) get some good seeds, start them all, put them in soil, take 2 clones off each one, flower the ones in soil to select the females, keep the corresponding female clones as moms. grow them until you have enough female clones on your best mom and use them for your next grow. your looking at probably 10 weeks before you could start again this way but you will end up with only the best females in your next grow and you will have something to smoke in the mean time.

I don't think that stress from the tent would affect stable genetics, (my females didnt hermie after recovery from the poison gas chamber i had)

Bert, you really need to do things by the book, problems like you are having is why most people give up and do not grow. Rule number 1 get reliable genetics. Look at the time, effort, and stress you have endured just to find out that you have a room full of males, I bet you would spend 20 bucks each on some female clones right now wouldn't you? I know the equiptment, seeds, electric ect is expensive but you get what you pay for in most cases and you need to get it right before you drive yourself nuts trying to overcome unnessesary problem after problem. This for example would never happen the way I explain because you have seen the moms growing all through their lifecycle and ther will be no surprises when it comes to a full clone crop.

Not trying to burst your bubble but you need to get it right,I have stayed around this site long enough to help you out and I feel almost as bad as you do about about these babies being males! It is like they are my babies too somehow and I was confident that your problems were behind you until you hit this wall that nobody can help you with, a male is a male.

Don't give up my friend, get some seeds and get them going.
Keep the females you have or you will regret it as soon as you cut them down.

Orr, just an afterthought, take some clones off the females you have now. watch the moms to make sure they dont hermie an if they dont, use the clones as clone mothers for your next grow. I would get some decent seeds though in case they do hermie.

Thats enough rambling for me for a minute,

Let me know what you decide to do.

Have patience,
Subzero :)

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - Thanks alot first of all for all the help and sticking around to help me out along the way....your assistance has been priceless. I do believe now that I'm starting to get on the right track of things and I believe my next grow will have much better results due to all your help.

I think I've made my mind up to a degree so far. I'm going to continue growing out these two females for sure...I'm just going to swap the reservoir and flood table with my 20gal. reservoir and 2x2 table....no use using a 40gal. reservoir and 2x4' flood table for 2 plants..plus its alot easier to manage.

The only rub about the clones...I may have some Red Diesel clones headed my way not to long from now that I'm confindent are from good genetics. I would prefer to grow these over what I'm working with now but....I really like your idea about cloning my existing plants. I should find out in the next couple of weeks what the time line for those Diesel clones will be but I think in the mean time I'm going to try my hand at taking some clones off my existing females here and see what I can come up with. It would be good practice at the very least for when I do either get a good solid clone like I believe these Red Diesel's will be or otherwise I'll be doing a continous grow and not have to worry about seeds for the immediate (all considering they don't turn hermie on me).

I will say this, it has been stressful, exhausting, and down right frustrating. I think alot of it was due to the toxic tents...but I'm really happy all the hard work that I poored into this particular grow because I have learned so much...enouph that I think I can pull off a successful grow the next time around. Now, everything is in place with the exception of me rebuilding that other tent for a clone mother.

I'm going to wait till I get news about these Red Diesel clones before I make my final decision on the clones though I think...it would just be better if I used those over what I'm working with now. Plus it will give me more time to get that tent set up and thats going to put more pressure on me dropping some more cash on lights and its still pretty tight right now. That x4 ballast I have in my main tent was going to used for my clone mother tent.

Well, alot of things for me to decide lol. I hadn't thought about getting into the whole cloning buisness so soon but it really makes the most sense. I do have cloning hormones already so I'm at least partially prepared..and I've seen a cloning process in person that is at the bare minimum 70% affective period. I'd say more like 90% honestly. If that piques your curiosity, if and when I get around to taking clones I can take pictures to show you the method. I have yet to see any grow video/online tutorial/etc. show it this way. They always tell you take like 40+ clones are something rediculous like that. Well you said two clones per plant so it sounds like you know what your doing. so Nevermind, lol....now I'm rambling. Well, I'm going to see if I can get some info on these RD clones maybe this weekend to kind of speed the process up here. I'll take some photo's this weekend up my tent after I swap the reservoir and flood table out. By that time the other two questionable plants should have shown there sex so I can either keep or pull them for sure. Have a good one! :trooper:

[bertoxxulous]

Forgot to mention in subzero but, femaleseeds.nl only delivers to European countries with the exception of Germany.

[subzero]

Gypsy Nirvana's Seed Boutique (http://www.seedboutique.com/)

They sell them here bert, not much variety here but they do post to the usa, so if you are actually in canada i can't see a problem either.

Red diesel sounds like a great option.

Subzero.

[subzero]

Bert, you want to take clones asap before they get too far into flower, otherwise you will have to wait until they switch back into veg mode.

heres what you do until you get your clone tent up and running.

soak 4 small cubes in ph 5.5 water leave overnight

next day make new smaller holes in the rw cubes with a toothpick at an angle about 1/2 inch deep. I find the existing holes dont hold the stems tight enough.

shake the excess water out of the cubes.

take a clone, cut at the longest angle as you can just below the 3rd node.

you should have a top then 2 leaves then a cut, about 3" long yes?

dip the cutting in the hormone and blow off the excess.

put the cutting into the toothpick hole at an angle, tight.

now get 4x 10 oz white styrofoam cups (disposable coffee cups) place the clone in the rockwool in a ring of damp white paper towel inside the cup, the ring of pt simply holds the cube from falling around, got me so far?

now get an elastic band and some saran wrap, spray the clone with water and cover the top of the cup with the plastic wrap and seal it over with the e/b, airtight.

go to the hardware store and get a couple of cool white (blue spectrum0, flourescent screw in bulbs, do you know the ones, the 3 loop energy saver ones? Equivelant to 100w (ish), get some lampholders that you can screw to a wooden frame that you need to also make about 1ft square. mount 1 at one end and the other opposite. got me? you could put some legs on too so the lamps are about 12in above the floor. also a piece of cardboard over the top and 4 sides if you want.

put the cups with clones and airtight lid under the lights 18/6 for 10-14 days, dont move them or open the tops for at least 10 days, they should have condensation on the top throughout, after 10 days put some (3 or 4)holes with a sharp pencil throught the saran wrap, leave for 4 more days.
remove the plastic and....

Presto, rooted clones with little expense and low energy.

Put them in soil and keep em as moms.


They might wilt for 24 hours but should perk up if all is well.
After 72 hours of cloning, if they arent looking dead, they WILL root if you are patient, dont move them and dont look at them every 5 minutes!

Let me know what you think

Subzero :)

[bertoxxulous]

I like your recommendation sub. Only problem I'm running into here is when the clones are ready to trasplant into a tent, I'm still using the 4 slot ballast for my flowering females in there right now. So basically I won't have a light for the clones once they are big enouph to transplant right now unless somehow those two females are ready to harvest by that point. Btw, I like that website, seems like a big enouph selection to me. I think when I do decided to go from seed again thats where I'll start. I need to look at prices on ballast and other lights but I'm not seeing me having the money for it right now. What you think I should do?

[Italiano715]

I like your recommendation sub. Only problem I'm running into here is when the clones are ready to trasplant into a tent, I'm still using the 4 slot ballast for my flowering females in there right now. So basically I won't have a light for the clones once they are big enouph to transplant right now unless somehow those two females are ready to harvest by that point. Btw, I like that website, seems like a big enouph selection to me. I think when I do decided to go from seed again thats where I'll start. I need to look at prices on ballast and other lights but I'm not seeing me having the money for it right now. What you think I should do?

you could always just get some fluro tubes for your clones and just shelve them somewheres....

But if money is an issue, then just work with what you got and try the cloning next time...After the harvest you can then purchase need-bees for your cloning section. Take it a step at a time and always remember that PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE

[icbh707]

yo bert,
sucks about the males! sorry.
i just did sour diesel and its a great producer and knocks you on your ass. it took about 10/11 weeks to finish and the strech phase was at least 4 weeks so dont over veg. i vegged like 5-6days and finished about 4ft tall.
if you know the clones are quality i would clone off of those and try seeds when your ready for something else to smoke. but i would do what sub said and take a few cuttings now for practice even if you dont use them.
i normally top as early as i can. once i start vegging the clones its about 5-7 days. i just wait until theres 4 nice new nodes and strip off the 2 bottom nodes that made up the clone before, then pinch off what would have been the 5th node. you dont get any cuttings doing it this way so with this blue cheese i left more like 6-7 nodes and then topped. tonight i just took cuttings from the extra bottom 2-3 branches.
i think i snapped a few pics with my phone while i was topping...i'll check.
i also took a pic of the door/vent idea i had a while back if you want to try and vent the future 600 hoods.
if that tray is the size of the lights i would keep it in there and try to spread those 2-4 ladies out. it might be too late for one of those scrog net things but you can still bend them with twist ties and maybe supercrop later. i would drill 1/4in holes in the lip around the edge of the tray and get a roll of twist ties, tie one end to the part of the plant you want to bend then pull it in the direction you want it to bend, figure out which hole to tie it off to cut just a little extra. thread the twist tie through the hole and tie it off. it may look funny at first laying sideways but the top of the branch will turn toward the light before you know it.
i just did this 2 nights ago at a buddys place.
well back to work for me.

[subzero]

Hi Bert,

I was thinking that the clones you take would be your new mothers, IE you are going to take clones off them not flower them. I have a mother JTR that is 2 years old and is only 10 inches tall (through low light,light feeding and pruning). If you took clones now, in about 5 weeks these new mothers would be ready to take clones from, those new clones will take 10-14 days to root properly.That is about 7 weeks of time from now that you would be ready to put them in a tent. Correct? you have been flowering the ones you have now for a week already and ak47 is about an 8 week strain so now is the time to take your moms if you want ak 47 clones for your next grow. Is this a bit clearer?

The site ain't bad, the lack of selection i pointed out was specificly for the femaleseeds.nl selection they have. Your best bet on there would be ww/bb,IMO. I have read good things about that strain. Stay away from GHS.

Hope this clarifies things a bit.

Subzero :thumbsup:

[subzero]

Icbh, good to hear from you again!

I was thinking the same about dropping the tray size but I thought it best not to complicate things any more! Tieing them down as you said is a good idea, so bert if you are going to do this keep the big tray in there otherwise you wont have tying points in the right place.

I like your door Icbh, let us know what you think of the cheese.

Subzero :thumbsup:

[icbh707]

the cheese has been a bit of a challenge so far. the clone guy it turns out took them post flower and about 4 of them had buds starting to set. :mad: that stunted them a few days under the 400mh. then i think i got some bad superthrive trying to bring them out of their shock. it turned the mix all cloudy and f-ed up the ph. flushed and another stunt for a few days. they look great now under the 1000hps. about 12in tall going into pots tomorrow and flip in a few days.
i did the cuttings in 1in plastic lined rockwool cubes soaked only for a few hours in aprox 5.5ph (i normally soak for at least 12hrs but...). i stuffed those in a tray insert and put that in a solid tray. the insert is not made for those cubes and i soaked the cubes before putting them so they are a tight fit and they sit way up in the insert. the tray sits on a heat mat in a cabinet in the laundry room. a dome covers the tray and the vents are half open. they look great after 24hrs.

hey sub, when you take cuttings from your moms how many nodes do you want to leave on the moms branch after you take the cutting. like if theres a branch that you want to clone with like 6 nodes and your clone will take up the three at the top 3-4in that would leave 3 nodes that will take over as the main branch. is that too many or not enough? i just dont want my mom to be too much of a bush. not that i dont like a nice bush.

heres a homemade 3m heppa filter for intake

[bertoxxulous]

Alrighty guys. Got the info on getting some clones so here it goes: Got some G13xHaze clones comming but its going to be a couple months from now probably. It turns out, of the 4 plants in my tent, it looks like 3 are females, and I pulled the last male last night. I have 6 rockwool cubes soaking in 5.5 PH water. tonight I will be taking 2 clones from each plant. I have a seedling tray, with a humidity dome, and 125W (12,000 lumins) CFL/Ballast that will be used for the clones. In the next two weeks I'll be re-constructing my clone mother tent so by the time they are ready for trasplant into my smaller E&F system everything will be ready. I'll still be short a light cause I'm going to end up using the same light for my seedling tray to veg the clones with but that will give me a much longer time to aquire another light before I'd be taking clones off one of those mothers anyways. I will post pics of all this after everything is said and done.

@icbh707 - I see what u did thar with that heppa filter. Man that "great stuff" expanding foam is such a mess to mess with lol. Thanks for all the pics too. So what your saying is I left my AK-47's grow to big and I should look at bending them over? I can tell you part of the problem...when they were seedlings they were having alot of problems and I kept the lights way up high because I thought I was having heat problems but it was the tents that were the problem....but in the process they got all stretchy.

[bertoxxulous]

Hey guys, the website is back up finally after that maintenance. Had some concern there for a moment. Anyways, I will post my pics that I took on Sunday (05/10/09) of my three remaining females and my clones I took later this evening. I haven't taken any pics since then but the clones I took don't look like they have died yet...I would even go as far enough to say they look surprisingly healthy and didn't even seem to really wilt at all so far. I will post updated pics this weekend as well. My females are now showing two large pistils(spelling?) at most of their nodes so maybe couple weeks start seeing some buds hopefully?? Pretty exciting anyways. I honestly didn't think I would be getting this far with these plants with how they were looking a couple of weeks ago in the old tent.

Also, I started the three females on 3/4 strength (3tsp./gal.) Ionic Bloom on Sunday as well. My question is....when should I start using the Ionic Boost? After I get some little button buds is what I was thinking but it doesn't seem to specify on the bottle.
:S1:

[Italiano715]

Start to use the "bloom booster" with first signs of a female. Well at least that is what I do. Some will even go as far as to start using it as soon as they switch to 12/12

[subzero]

icbh,

you guys take way bigger cuttings than i do so you mother will be larger, but yes 3 nodes is enough, you can always top later to bush it out again as it will produce clones more often than you will need them. if you google bonsai moms there is all the info you will need to keep your moms small and healthy.
Nice filter.

bert

Your clones will be okay, you will have plant stock now so you dont need to rely on others anymore should promised clones not materialize.

If you bend (crush the stem till you feel breaking fibers and bend at the same time) at the point that the tallest branches will be the same height as the shortest ones so you have a flat canopy and the bottom branches will become tops as well in a few days. try to bend them so they fill up gaps rather than cover existing lower buds.. After you have bent them all down flat you will think, shit what have i done! but don't worry, they will recover very quickly a few hours to a couple of days, with the light you have you will need to keep all the flowering happening at the top of the canopy as flouros dont penetrate as well as hid's. after a few days the branches will try to grow back up straight, this is when you should tie them back down so the canopy is flat again (as icbh wisely said).

Up the nutes to full strength, plants love ionic, add the boost for week 3 of flowering, it wouldnt hurt to add it sooner but your plants wont use it until you get some proper flowers, it is just adding extra nutes that are already in bloom but in higher quantities when the plants need more.

Look forward to the pics.

Subzero :thumbsup:

[subzero]

Oh and bert,

g13 haze is an 11 weeker, alot more finicky than ak, and a guess says it wont yield as well. I would get a few runs out of your ak until you know how plants react, otherwise you are sort of starting from scratch again and have to learn a new bunch of perameters for the new strain. An experienced grower never gets the best result the first time he grows a strain as each cross is completely different and it takes at least one grow to learn the characteristics of not only the strain but the phenotype.

I would grow what I know if it were me.

Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

Thanks guys for the info. I think I'm going to go ScrOg with these clones except for the one that I pick as a mother. I may even be able to get by with just 2 clones per cycle with going ScrOg but I think its well worth it for my system and since I'm rocking the fluoro's right now. Here are the pics from 05/10/09.

[attachment=o217720] [attachment=o217721] [attachment=o217722] [attachment=o217723] [attachment=o217724]

[subzero]

Hi bert,

the clones look exactly the same as i would do it, are they in trays? if not you should get some or cover the cubes in foil, it will keep the roots in the dark when they start to show. mist the inside of the dome more often than the clones themselves so the r/w doesn't get too wet.

Boy those plants have stretched haven't they?, luckily you don't have huge amounts of foliage otherwise you would struggle with those flouros. next time go with some bigger bags, you must imagine that what is happening up top with the plant is happening with the rootzone as well. I bet those bags are gonna bulge with roots by the time they have finished!

if you want to get the most out of your light you could move the 2 end plants as far to one side of the tray as you can and the middle one opposite, then rub and gently bend the plants over to 90 degrees, tying them to the opposite side of your table. all those side branches would grow verticly from the horizontal main stem in 24 hours. up to you though.

Great work!
Subzero. :)

[icbh707]

hey guys,
the reason i asked early on about the height of your tent and topping and such is because at the time you were still vegging untopped when they looked to be about 12in tall. i flip at about 14in topped and the stretch phase at that point is about 2ft with a total height of 3+ft and i knew the tubes would have a hard time getting light to the bottom. sub has talked you through the supercrop method very well. make sure you pinch the stem good or it will snap. the lst method is bending them without the kink in the stem (low stress). also easy to snap a branch doing this so be careful. scrog is lst bending with a screen of some sort but you normally do this earlier in the stretch phase but it may still work. the stretch phase is going to be 40% of the total flower time so keep track of their height and the date they stop stretching and you should have a good idea when to cut.
ps. sub, your right about keeping it simple, i toss around ideas with long time growers all day and forget that at times im talking to people that are just starting out. keeping it simple is always a good idea. when you supercrop or bend, have a splint of some kind and twist ties on your person or another person there to help. if a stem snaps you can fix it with a splint but if the split is open for more than a few seconds it will not grow back together. last time i had a snap my twist ties were 3 ft out of my reach and i had to let go of the branch for a few seconds. it never grew back. when ive put them back together right after the snap they always grow back together.

you should have buds forming in the next few days.

so with the new door vent and 3 1000hps going and no ac it has been 72-80 with temps outside ranging from 60-84. im looking at 97f on sunday and the humi is at 25-35% already. im going to put a swamp cooler in there to see what happens. could make too much humi but if so ill install my ac unit. going to check for light leaks today and then flip tomorrow.

not sure whats going on with GH?!!!! i mix fresh and set my ph at 5.7, dont water just let it sit over night, 24hrs later its at 7.0.!!! i think i got a bad batch or my testers fucked up. im calling the store today and going to get the GH reps phone #.

looking good bert! :thumbsup:

[icbh707]

hey,
looks like you took the cuttings from the upper branches. i would take them from the smaller bottom branches that dont produce that much bud anyway. also lower branches make better clones.
check out the side view of my cheese. there are 4 main branches after topping (i could use 3 and cut out the fourth as it never gets very tall, a fifth branch would be useless) and a fifth small branch, that little gal is my cutting.

[subzero]

Mmmmm, yes
I think the reason he cloned from the top was my fault, :( i mentioned that I clone from the top but i meant from my moms, to keep them small. In this case i would have cloned from the bottom too. they make better clones from the bottom because they are the oldest shoots, also they wont get any light if you kept them on,I absolutely agree. In the case of bonsai moms the lower growth does become woody hence cloning from the top. Sorry for the confusion.

btw i know people who only clone from the top so don't sweat it you haven't fucked up bert!

Take care,

Subzero :stoned:

[subzero]

icbh, with your nutes are you using ro water?

Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

Ok. So let me see if I'm understanding what you guys are trying to tell me. You want me to bend my main plant stem, roughly in the middle I would say, at a 90 degree angle without breaking the outside of the stem? Should I tie these length wise to my table or width? Its a 2x4 flood table. I'm not going to do anything until I understand crytal clear what you guys are trying to tell me lol. I don't wanna go mutilate my plants and then have understood ya'll wrong.

[subzero]

right,

as the plants are positioned in the photo but move them all the way to the outside edge, now about 1/3 of the way up, just above a set of healthy branches, gently rub the stem for about an inch, increasing in pressure until you crush the stem for that 1 inch, have your splint and ties ready as icbh pointed out in case it breaks. now slowly and carefully bend the whole plant above the crush, to 90 degrees width ways (the 2 ft way). drill a hole in the edge of the table and tie the very top to it. same all the way along with the middle one opposite (like the picture). Take your time and be very gentle and you will be ok, as long as you don't break it in two, it will repair any damage even if it splits (even fairly severe) within a couple of days. This will increase your yield.

Be brave, but you will worry at first when you see them just laying there, be warned. you will also be surprised how fast they recover!

Subzero ;)

[icbh707]

agreed. the staggered position they are in now looks good. bend the 2 on the right to the left and the one on the left to the right. that should fill in most of your tray and light footprint. the goal is to see as much shade on the surface of the tray as possible.


sub,
im on well water, 6.9 and about 180ppm. normally 2ml/gal of ph down to get down to about 5.9. GH is ph balanced but may rise a little after a watering or two. but now it shoots up from 5.7 to 7.0 in 24hrs without watering (no runoff effect). although after it rises it seems to take less down to bring it back to normal. ive removed things i thought it might be, superthrive, calmag, and now i only mixed GH micro, bloom, grow and floralitious+ and it did it again (last night 5.8 and today 6.3 but i only mixed in 10 gal to the 15gal that was already in the res). i will now mix without the flor+ and see what happens, and then mix without micro and see... until maybe i find out what is causing it. i will also get some GH from another room i have going and see if that does it.
im about ready to go buy some fucking ionic!!! :mad:

[bertoxxulous]

Here are the pics of my supercropped plants, the front and back ones were laying so far down into the table that I tied them up, I will check on them in a couple of hours. Once I see them firm up I'm going to drop the lights closer. The only thing I see being a small problem is some of the lower branches on that back one are actually at 4" taller than where I made the bend. Does this look right, ok, etc? :wtf4: Yea I think scrog is going to work out for my particular set up pretty well I think. So here's my plan...
1) Harvest these 3 plants if they make it.
2) Get my clone mother tent built in the next two weeks.
3) Get a screen set up for scrog.
4) Pick out a mother from my six clones, put it in the clone mother tent, and then put the remaining 5 (maybe only 2 or 3 in reality) clones in my main tent with the scrog setup...top them at about 10" and let them grow into my screen from that point.

Sound like a good plan?

[attachment=o217772] [attachment=o217773] [attachment=o217774] [attachment=o217775] [attachment=o217776]

[bertoxxulous]

Oops, thought of some other questions...

Will I need to do this again?

Also, I started this weekend with a clean out of the reservoir, put in a fresh 20gal. with 3tsp/gal. Ionic Bloom (3/4 strength). Started at about 790ppm. I've been steadily rising about 10-15ppm a day, I'm at 860ppm now. I've been adding 1gal of water with 3 tsp. of Ionic Bloom in every day shortly after the lights kick on at 8pm. Is that ok or should I add another gallon of straight tap to nock the ppm down?

[icbh707]

I think you should have the center one on the other side of the tray. Yes keep them up at a 90' not hanging down like that and the tips will turn back up.

[subzero]

yes put the middle one the opposite to the two end ones, and at 90 degrees.
i have run ionic at up to 1400ppm (x500) on a heavy feeder without a problem although i would not reccomend it. below 1000 you should be fine, if the ph is rising and the ppm is dropping or if the water is dropping and everything else basicly stays the same, you are ok.

I probably would have made the bend lower but you will be fine.

Icbh,
I bet its a change in your water or the tester, not the nutes but let us know how you get on. i keep a liquid ph kit for occasions such as these!

Well done bert.

Subzero
:thumbsup:

[bertoxxulous]

Yea the one thing I noticed was that the stem was really thick and I was too scared to go any lower thinking it would be easier to break in half. The one thing I just wanted to make sure about, the stem did split, but the splits where up and down you know, not like it splitting in half. Is that ok because it basically happened with every plant?

Another thing of note, I may have gotten a bad ppm reading on sunday when I refilled the reservoir too. I'm starting to think that may have been the case but I'm not totally convinced. Basically, my ppm's are going up (790 - 860), and my ph has dropped very slightly. Like from 5.8 to 5.7 after three days. Every day I've added 1 gallon of tap that already has 3 tsp. of Ionic Bloom in it.

@icbh - Okies, when I get home later today I'll move that one around, I'm kind of in a state of worrysome anticipation to see where my ladies are today.

[subzero]

bert,
don't worry about the splits, they will likely develop into 2 seperate stems at that point for the duration of the split. It always happens to me without long term damage, have faith man!

i dont top up my tank everyday, certainly not with nutes. in fact by the end of the week i let it run right down so i dont have to dump so much water. try leaving it ph adjusted about 5.8 with your target ppm, then record your ppm. after 2 days without topping up check the ph, has it risen, stayed the same or dropped? now add ph adjusted tap co correct to 5.8 again, no nutes to the same level as you started. now take the ppm, it should have dropped from your target if the plants are feeding properly. If your leaf tips arent starting to burn slightly you are within the limit of nutes it can take. by looking at them, they seem happy enough.

don't worry, we wouldn't tell you to do anything that we weren't completely certain about.

Recovery photos please!

Subzero. :)

[bertoxxulous]

Well, I took some small picture frame holders, bent them out into "L" joints and duck taped them to the 90 bend to add some more support, that back plant part that is bent is to heavy and the front plant just didn't have enouph stability. However, most of the growing is now pointing to the lights and I dropped the lights a good 12". I've done alot of investigation into the ScrOg thing and I'm pretty fucking exicted about it. I'm going to build one this weekend when I set the clone mother tent up. I can do like 2 plants scrog and get the same yield I would with these 3 plants if not more, thats pretty awsome if you ask me. I'll end up getting away with bigger bags too, like 2 gallons maybe or even bigger.

There are buds forming!! Woohoo! Small as they are its just exciting to see them!

One other observation, the front and back plants leaves have turned noticably darker past the bend that I made. The coloring on the middle plant didn't change but its also the one I didn't have to support. What would that mean?

[subzero]

hi bert,

good observation about the colour change, don't worry, my guess is that either the bottom leaves are paler because they are older and havent recieved much light lately or the plants metabolism just unbalanced due to the stress of the crush. Nothing to worry about.

I dont scrog because i can only work from the front of my tent. you really need access on at least 3 sides because you need to prune underneath and pull the branches through to fill the screen. scrog would help with your light problem though.

Subzero :)

[bertoxxulous]

Well, I've been able to squeeze in to either side of my tent so far and I have the front too for access so I don't think its going to be a problem for me. Worth it IMO. Pictures comming tommorow or sunday! I just need to be spot-on with my measurements :wtf:

[subzero]

The only thing is... you will need the screen to fill the whole tent, a 4 plant scrog will fill that space so you wont be able to climb in to prune and bend, I wouldn't have thought? It seems a bit of a waste valuable grow space to leave a gap at the sides just so you can have access. I supercrop because i want to get my tent bulging with buds that are around the same height to make it as efficent as possible, if I have gaps, i fill them up with plants in pots. No way could I get in there. A screen would be way too restrictive in my set up.

Your not going to use any more light or electric and the risk is no greater so why not fill' er up and get the best return possible.

Just my opinion, but have a read about supercropping it may be better for your application.

Oh ya, hows that carbon filter working???

Subzero :smokin:

[bertoxxulous]

I read the supercropping stuff but nothing quite said anything in particular about training the plants in any particular direction. It mostly refered to the act of breaking the stem, or the outer wall of the stem. Hey they makes sense, and I think I'll do it too. Your also training though right? So I'm geussing what you do is while they are still fairly small you mash it and bend it where you want over and over again avoiding having to tie your plant down. Does that provide you with enouph stability or do you have issues with not enouph stability?

What I read about scrog on some persons use of scrog says they are able to manage about 17.5g per square foot in a 2'x4' scrop trellis (with 2 plants). Well, I'm at 2ft/3.5ft. I think I could pull off a 2'x4' scrog setup in my tent based off of this. And as for my use, that seems enouph of a yield for me based off my consumption.

However, if you think supercropping + training like we did with my plants would produce a higher yield I'd be more than happy to try your way for these clones in the oven right now.

[icbh707]

i think you should try all bending topping supercroping scroging methods and even make one up of your own...just not all at once. over time you will try it all or at least at least you'll try most of it. every grower, room and plant are different and its all about finding the best match for each circumstance. this method may work great with that light but when you go hid you may find another method works best. sub and i have have probably used similar methods at one point over the years but have ended up using much different setups now because of what has worked or not worked for us over the years...

having said that i think the main reason some people shy away from supercrop is because bending and scroging are considered "low stress" but aside for the occasional unfixable broken branch ive never seen supercrop hurt a plant or diminish yield. in fact i was looking at my buddys 4ft tall supercroped plants the other night and the SC tops looked even fatter then the others.
but if you are going to stick with that light i would do more plants (like 6), topped early into veg with 4 branches, flower early when they are still small and scrog early and low. your turn around will be faster that way. :thumbsup:

hey sub, a buddy of mine is getting married in Birmingham this aug. and i think ill be in berlin around then so i should be able to fly over for it. we should hook up for a pint and some stories if your around the NW. i'll also be going to his bachelor party in amsterdam...unless the wife thinks i'd visit the hookers....i would never... ;)

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - The carbon filter is working out fabulous :thumbsup:

Hey guys, just finished my little project about 2 hours ago (still haven't build the other tent) and I wanted to post some pictures. I think overall considering my lights...what I'd like to do after this grow is put some plants in, top at 10" and maybe supercrop the two nodes that spawn off of that. Scrog those plants when those nodes hit 12". That is kinda what I'm wanting to do with the left over clones I'll have after I pick out this mother from my 6 clones.

About the clones, they are all still healthy looking. Haven't seen any roots yet. Not much difference from anything I can tell from when I first took the cuttings. When should I start using Grow nutes on them, and what strength, like 1/4 strength maybe?

Lastly, as you will see in the pictures...Today I built a scrog trellis, and after staring at my plants for about 15 minutes and wondering how I could keep the light even....I said screw it and put my trellis in there and tied the plants to it, I also trained some stems on the trellis as well. It wasn't my intention to put it in there for these particular plants, but after doing it I think overall I'm pretty satisfied. I didn't have to drill holes in my flood table (even though I know its not that big of a deal) and I can really keep the lights even for the rest of this grow which will be good. Luckily the bends I made really worked out for the height of the trellis. Hope you enjoy the pictures guys, tell me what you think :chainsaw:

[icbh707]

the screen looks to be just what you needed in there. nice.

why are you wanting to top at 10in and why do you want to top, supercrop and scrog all at the same time? i would flip to flower at or before 10in and top early on in veg. but i think i just said all this the other day.
the topping, SC and scrog are all different methods to achieve the same results (keeping the plants low and wide) and really, unless you dont plan the height of your plants well, you really never need to SC and scrog at the same time. topping is effective with both SC and scrog.

is there a reason for wanting to use 2 plants and not 5 or 6? the law? to fill the tray with 2 plants youre looking at about a 4 week veg or more and with 6 plants maybe a 10 day/2week veg. a longer veg will effect the flower time. the yield is set by the lumans. so with the same light you will yield the same amount but in just about 3+ weeks less time. that also saves money in power bills. but it seems like you have your mind made up so this will be the last advise i give on this issue.

not sure of the temp and humi in your room but i was up to 85f and 25% the other day with all fans and venting on. i just went and bought a swamp cooler and yesterday it was 94f and dry outside where im at. lights came on at 8pm and with the swamp cooler it was 80f and 60%. there is no ducting and it runs on about 300watts. love it. today is going to be 101 where im at...:(

[subzero]

bert,
the screen looks great, you want to pull the tallest ones back through the screen fairly soon to keep the canopy nice and flat. Try to line it up so each bud gets its own hole in the screen.

I forgot earlier that your tank/tray are up in the air compared to mine and it looks like you could move around a bit more than i thought.

no nutes for clones, the bottom leaves will likely start to yellow, this means roots are forming. I would guess 10-12 days since you took them to expect roots through the cube.

I agree with all what Icbh says above, by your next grow, you will know what to expect and you will soon develop a style of your own, timing is the crutial thing , eg when to take clones so they can go straight in to your flower room. the bending and training will just come naturally.

Pleased about the filter.

Spot on bert, to think they were dying 3 weeks ago!

Subzero :thumbsup:

Icbh,

I'm all over in the summer, let me know closer to the wedding and I will see where I am. Could work out as a good source of seeds for you!

Did you sort out your nute problem??

Subzero :stoned:

[bertoxxulous]

Awsome guys, I've been looking at the thread on and off today waiting for your responses lol!

@icbh - I will readily take your advice on that....I mean I'll have 5 extra clones to grow once I pick a mother out. So what your saying is I should top early on...maybe at 4 nodes or something, and then of course use my scrog trellis at that point. Veg for 2 weeks, and then bloom till harvest. I've got no problem with that at all, I just thought with 2 plants instead of 5 or 6 it would be easier to manage and I didn't think I would have the space for that many. Right now I'm sitting in the high 70's and humidity is at 50% all the time generally (I have a de-humidifier running 24/7 in the room). As a side note, that would be awsome to get married in Amsterdam. I'm planning a trip to hop around Europe here in the next year or so myself.

@subzero - Only three weeks, so hard to believe where they are at now with all my previous failures. Also, I took a look at that bonsai mother post...wow thats crazy. I don't anything about soil yet though. Have any suggestions on where I should look to get started with that? The plants are already in 2" rockwool cubes, would that be ok to put in soil or should I try to break the RW apart? I'll try to do some investigation into soil in the mean time because I'm geussing they should be ready to transplant here by the end of this next week or pretty close anyways.

Again guys, thanks alot of all the suggestions and help, all of it has been priceless to me in my endeavors here.

I'm going to be adding 1/2 strength Ionic Boost today as well, and go full strength Boost next week.

[icbh707]

yep i think im going to build one of your screens. i was looking at my BC and if you look at that side view i posted earlier i think this plant will scrog like a grape vine. i guess it comes down to how far the light will penetrate. i think ill spread those 4 tops out and set the screen at about 24in? then start weaving them out to open spaces. good idea on that screen thanks!
thats kinda what im talking about with shorter topped plants. if you can keep them low and put that screen at about 10-12in?? and really spread the plant out you should be able to get a big yield while minimizing your fluffy bottom buds. ive seen lots of over vegged plants in my time and you can see where the line of usable buds stops and the bottom fluff starts. with a 1000hps its at about 3ft or so down from the top. a 4ft plant (not supercropped) will have about 6-12in of leaves at the bottom and no real bud to speak of. i should take a pic of my buddys 5ft tall ladies...sucks.

sweet sub! ive been telling my friends that one of us needs to just bite the bullet and be the clone/mother guy. start from seed and keep the genetics fresh and hook the rest of us up. nobody wants to do it...i guess that would be a lot of babies. its a numbers game in cali.

GH rep wont call me back, big surprise. shop owner says that he only somebody say that about 3G not GH. hes a fuckin stoner. nice guy but never remembers anything right. ph still goes up after mix. ill go check now. just mixed 1050ppm 5.6ph we'll see. 2 days into flower about 16in and looking good. they love the 60% humi and lower temp. it was about 100f today with only a swamp cooler.

ill be out of town for a few days and back with pics of my finished grape ape.:thumbsup::D:jointsmile:

actually this is me lately :eek: so nervous!
wish me luck
anybody have any extra glass jars???

[subzero]

Bert.

!!DO NOT TRY TAKING THEM OUT OF THE ROCKWOOL CUBES!!

Get some seedling soil based compost and add a bit of perlite to get some air in it. Dont use miracle grow. I wouldn't use this mix if I were going to plants in soil to maturity, but for little moms it is fine, you can feed it as nessesary when the soil runs out of nutes. Dont add nutes until they need it ,remember you want them to survive, not flourish. When you want clones add more food and light. Small pots, low light (not too many lumens), plain water 6.5-7.0ph, or somewhere thereabouts and your good to go.


Icbh
Yes I have loads of glass jars you can have if you want to come get them!

Every hydro guy I have ever met is like that, pretty sure its in the job description.

A small mom would give you as many clones as you would need as and when you need them. I couldn't put up with flowering clones and the likes. Not choosing my next strain would be the worst as thats half the fun for me!

Subzero :thumbsup:

[bertoxxulous]

@icbh707 - Glad my screen gave you some ideas! I think with the fact I'm rocking fluoro's right now its probably the most productive way for me to grow after really spending some time thinking about it. I measured my trellis to be exactly 12" above the tops of my 1 gallon bags while they are sitting in the flood table. I also had to factor in the 1" peice of wood that is the frame, so it should be exactly 12". I really lucked out because the supercropping I did put the main SC stem about 2" below the trellis wire by just dumb luck really.

@subzero - Well sometime this week I should get around to buying that stuff then. I've noticed a few of my clones are getting larger so its only a matter of time before I need to transplant. I'm sure I could keep them in my seedling tray for another 14 days though I'm geussing. Once I get the other tent rebuilt I'll put all these clones in there in my small E&F setup until I harvest this grow. Speaking of, how long you think it will be till they are ready to harvest? They just seem to be moving so quick its hard for me to really guess at it all. If they are truely AK-47 and harvest in 8 weeks that would technically be this comming weekend but I know they got set back with the death tents and all...I'm in no rush really I just want to get this right! I don't want to be too optimistic because everytime I am it seems my optimism gets pounded into the ground by some unseen factor.

Anyways, I've been reading some peoples ways of curing and it seems everyone does something alittle different. I was wondering what you guys suggest I do. From all I've read the one I like the most is the way Divestoned does it. He cuts and drys till stem breaks then puts in paper bags for 2 weeks and then considers it ready to smoke but puts it into airtight glass jars afterwards to preserve the buds. The other way I've seen is hang em till the the stem breaks, put in paper bag for 5 days to a week, and then put them in airtight glass jars and opens the jars for about 10 minutes twice a day for a "x" amount of time till the buds are no longer moist/moisture no longer builds up in the jars. I need to go buy some of those glass jars btw, I first bought these plastic airtight containers but have since learned its not good for some reason.

[subzero]

bert,
those babies have only been flowering for two weeks and two days, you've got six weeks left before you are ready to harvest. Hope you have some stash in the meantime!

Yes either way is great to cure, I do the latter. I use food grade plastic containers, every coffeeshop in Amsterdam uses plastic. I know it's not perfect but unless you have some extra cash I wouldn't bother with glass for now. If you already have plastic, may as well use it.

Subzero :)

[MichiganAero]

if you live near a World Market, or go to their website, they have cheap glass jars of every size. I got a 2 gallon clear glass jar for about $5. Seals great. Yur not suppose to use plastic because it has the potential to build up static, and can attract the crystals. But i think that mostly applies to baggies and stuff.

Happy growing

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - unfortunately, I don't have the stash, I'm just about out by the end of the week probably and the only way I'm getting more at this point is from my own. So when you say AK-47 is a 8 week harvest you mean 8 weeks of flowering period? I'll stick with plastic then

@MichiganAero - thanks for the info man!

[bertoxxulous]

Wanted to add some more questions here about figuring out how long it takes to grow something. When I read like seed info and stuff is says 8 weeks for harvest and stuff, is that always referring to the flowering period only? I always that that was with veg. too? I guess I don't understand how longer veg = longer flowering time either?

[subzero]

Yes, what you read when buying seeds is an approxamation from the time you flip to 12/12 not from seed to harvest unless you are growing an autoflowering variety (your not if your seeds are that old)which I personally would avoid like the plauge.

Most plants can be vegged indefinately 18/6 so they cant put a time on it from seed as everyones veg time is different. Got me?

To be honest, I have never connected longer veg with longer flowering time, longer to produce a crop yes but havent found a noticable difference from flip to harvest due to longer veg. maybe icbh can shed some light on this???

Please bert, dont start picking buds off until they are ready, it will be worth the wait I promise. dont forget they will be full of nasty chemicals until you flush at the end.

If nothing else growing weed teaches you to have patience, if you don't have patience you will fail. This is why most people don't grow.

Subzero :thumbsup:

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - Wow, that makes perfect sense....I kinda feel like an ass for not comming to that conclusion myself...it seems kind of obvious honestly. Don't worry sub, I'm not going to jump the gun, I can suffer till these are truely ready for harvest. After all this hard work, the wait is well worth it IMO. I want to grow some coneissure bud like I stated at the beginning of this grow log and I really mean it. I've gone without before, it really sucks balls something hardcore, but I'll survive. Only issue I can think of...in 6 weeks exactly I'm going to be out of town for like 4 days so I'm not sure how thats all going to work out, I may need to end up harvest a day or two early.

I would like to mention on a bud here or there, not very many anyways, some of the pistils have turned orange...not very many but a couple.

Also, I've been spraying my humidity dome and such with the clones but this morning the humidity was really low in the dome and the clones looked really punked. The RW cubes were really dry looking...should they be alot more moist? I'm thinking its because the RW cubes are dry cause it just recently dried out overnight last night (not sure what happened humidity was like 40% in the dome). I haven't done anything yet other than spraying some more water in the dome this morning. I think their growth my also be alittle stunted cause they sprouting more pistils and such than when they went in.

[bertoxxulous]

So I went back and checked my dates of when things were done. Seedlings were transplanted into main tent on 04/04/09. 12/12 cycle started 05/02/09. So if this is AK-47 and its 80~ days then I'm looking at like...the week of July 18-25th...well over a month away lol. Ouch. Guess thats what I get for a month long Veg time. I don't know if I can blame myself to much over the Veg time though. Looking back I wish I would have just built my own tent from the get-go.

[subzero]

bert,
8 weeks is 60 days here in the UK, you plants should be ready around the 1st of July.

Now go back to the thread where i told you about taking clones (the timeframe one) it will probably make more sense now. You have time to grow your moms and take clones from them for your next crop.. The reason that I told you to take 2 is so if 1 died you would have a back up mom not to grow out 1 and keep the other . You wont be able to keep the clones managable for 6 weeks, but if you veg them now full on, 2 weeks before harvest you will have clones to take for your next crop. in short, use the clones that you are growing now for next crops clones.

You should be able to remove the dome and water the rockwool now. try taking it off for an hour a couple of times a day, if they wilt they still need it if they dont they wont.

Subzero :)

Do you have a favorite plant yet?

[bertoxxulous]

@suberzero - Yea don't ask me where I got the 80 days from. It was just a streak of retard going on there. so yea, last weekend of June, first week of July. Unfortunately that last weekend of June I'm going to be out of town that whole weekend so I'm not sure how I'm going to work that out. I went back and read that post and it makes sense now. I'm really not sure how I got confused about what you were saying. I'll definately water the clones this evening and take the hood off and see how they react today. Thanks again!

Also, I did some napkin math and came up with an approx. period of when my flowering plants will stop stretching and go into full blown bud production based off the 40/60 jobby. Roughly around the middle of next week. I'm going to take measurements next Wednesday (05/27/09) and see if they stretch anymore after that to confirm.

I'd say the middle plant may be my favorite based off that it has always been the most healthy looking plant I've had since the very beginning however, the back plant is larger, with larger buds so its a toss up between the two I think. The back plant back in the early stages streched really fast and I had to constanty support it to keep it from falling over but once I got the old tent covers off it took off faster than the other two. The front plant has been the weakest of all my plants from the beginning, I'm suprised its gone as far as its had honestly...it was the runt. The cuttings I took of the runt are also the most punked looking out of my clones.

[subzero]

bert
Dont take the 40-60 jobby as gossiple, it is just a rough guide. I find that the stretch usually stops around the middle of week 4 on a 60 day plant, again icbh has pointed the 40-60 phenomena. It is a new concept to me but it sounds about right. A different perspective to look at, I like it!

Don't ever discount the runt, I have had some very nice surprises from them!

Take care.
Subzero :)

[bertoxxulous]

I think it will be a long time before I ever would toss a runt (if ever...I don't think I would unless there was some specific circumstance that would be better overall).

[fluid69]

dude, your setup kicks ass! love the screen and the lights. rock on.

[bertoxxulous]

@fluid69 - Hey thanks alot man! Welcome to mah log.

@anybody - Can I start clipping some of these damn fan leaves?? They shading some of my buds lol. If I can clip some, how many should I clip a day or in what limits?

@subzero - I don't know if my clones are doing very swell. If they still looking punked tommorow I'm going to post a pic and you can take a look at it. They don't really look like anything size wise has changed and two of them have grown some more pistils for teh bud.

[subzero]

Hi Bert,

if your clones arent dead, they will be ok, patience. The preflowers will dry up and die eventually. They wont grow until the roots set. nothing will happen up top until things start to develop down below. photos please.

Clipping fan leaves - please do some research, some do some dont, there are arguements for both sides. I do to some extent, I also tuck them under. If decide you are going to remove them, do it soon you don't want to mess with them too far into flower. With only 3 plants do you think you could get away with just tucking them under? It is your best option imo.

Subzero :thumbsup:

[camoxnhx]

I love the fact that your SCOG. helps me out with more knowledge of doing so. can wait to see that screen filled up with some dank ass buds. btw i like how you have your flos set up over your ladies... almost reminds me of a tanning bed (but yours is way better) Keep that Green Thumb Sticky!

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - Yea thats what I was wanting to ask you for because I've seen conflicting reports on the issue scanning through the message boards about fan leaves. I don't want to risk the health of mah ladies any more than I have too so I'm giong to take your advice and try tucking them under as best I can. The fan leaves are just so damn big lol. I'll post some clone pics for you tonight sub. Going to get my soil/pots for my mother today. I've seen that some people use mineral based hydro nutes when their soil runs out of fertilizer...also people saying to use organic because it minimizes the salt build up. What say you? I'd like to not have to buy more nutes than I have to and just use the Ionic once my soil is out of fertilizer.

@camoxnhx - Hey thanks alot man! I'm glad my setup is helping you out. I wasn't planning on using the trellis till my next grow but decided it would be more beneficial after I had already supercropped them for added support and better light distribution with my fluoro's. So far its working out very awsome, I can't wait to see some tasty buds filling up those 2" holes either!

My buds are getting bigger by the day, I like how they are filling out so far. This SCROG trellis is working out better than I had hoped! Being able to keep the lights 9" from my buds = lots of win. I've got a digital temperature reader with a node on a cable under the lights and during the hottest part of the light cycle with my ballast 9" from the buds its maxxed out at 83 degrees so far (its got a min/max setting so I can check what the min/max was the next day).

[subzero]

Bert,

as you wont be feeding much to the moms because you want to keep them small, a bit of ionic will do the trick. Again not what i would use for soil for a crop. All you need from your mom is several clones every 60 days or so, dont worry about different nutes for now imo.

Get them pic's up!

Subzero :)

[bertoxxulous]

Alrighty, here are the pics of the clones. I picked up some Pro-Mix seeding/potting soil that already had perilite & vermiculite in it. I don't think it really has any fertilizer in it though cause it says to start feeding nutes 2-3 weeks after transplant.

[attachment=o218343] [attachment=o218344] [attachment=o218345] [attachment=o218346] [attachment=o218347]

[subzero]

Bert,
I would guess that the two sick looking ones haven't rooted. I would give them all a good water with straight tap and put the sick looking ones back under the dome, keep the humidity up, they may still make it. I would think that you should be seeing some roots on the other 4, pdq.

Thats the stuff (the soil), you can add nutes later when required.

Are the 2 sick ones from the same mom?

You should be pleased with yourself!

Subzero :thumbsup:

[bertoxxulous]

The two on the left are from the back, the two in the middle are from the middle, and the two on the right are from the front. The front plant is my runt and the back plant is the biggest. The middle one has been pretty sturdy.

[subzero]

Good stuff bert, you will definately get one of each for moms, misssion accomplished!

Off for the weekend! :rastasmoke:

Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - enjoy your weekend!

Ok everyone, couple things. Today I swung by the grow store and picked up some Hydrozyme and Liquid Karma. Also did a reservoir change out so I put that in for this week and I'm sitting at [email protected] with 3/4 strength bloom, full strength Ionic Boost, the LK, and the zyme. I don't think thats too bad. I did some reading up and such on the nutes and it seems that the LK specifically was recommended over and over again as a good addative, and specifically mentioned as something that should be used alongside Ionic so I thought I'd give it a shot. I don't know if I'm going to be able to tell the difference or not because I've not been this far into a grow before but I figured it wouldn't hurt.

Here are weekly pictures I just got done taking, have a look see!

[attachment=o218511] [attachment=o218512] [attachment=o218513] [attachment=o218514] [attachment=o218515]

[camoxnhx]

Look how lushious that screen looks! Yea buddie

[subzero]

Lookin' real good bert! nice pics.

I have used cannazyme but not hygrozyme or liquid karma. The lk looks like good stuff but without really searching, it is not readily available over here. I will maybe look into it a bit further, we will see how you get on with it!

Just worth a mention, don't use h2o2 with either product (i read that lk is great for rooting and thought you might mix it with some hp next crop).
It will kill the benificials in the organic solution.


There is another product that you may find usefull called "bud rot stop" not sure if you can buy it over there but it is an organic preventitive solution to bud rot that is a foliar spray. It can be used right up to harvest and works great on large buds that are susceptable to bud rot. Google it you may find an available alternative. I wouldn't be without it.

Your well on your way now!
Subzero. :thumbsup:

[bertoxxulous]

@camoxnhx - Hope I can keep it up lol.

@subzero - Thanks! I picked up the hygrozyme (its basically the same as cannazyme) to keep my root systems and stuff healthy for the next month but I plan on using it throughout the whole cycle for my next set of clones that I'll take off one of these mothers instead of h202 during the veg because as you said I do want to use the LK through the whole growth cycle as well. I've just started feeding nutes to the mother-clones cause their tips started turning yellow on me. Hoping to they will turn around from this budding thing sooner or later. I spent some time at the grow store looking at different nutes and didn't see anything to stop bud rot. My grow store is pretty good about ordering stuff for me as well so next time I'm in there (shouldn't be too long they are getting me some hard water Ionic) I'll see what they can do. I did order myself a 60x-100x pocket microscope though lol. I just had a little hand held one that had a small retical for 10x.

[icbh707]

hey gents!
look at those buds! here they come! im glad things are going well.
it was quite a bit of work cutting and cleaning the grape ape but man...talk about good bug! purp to the point that some tops look black. ive got the black rose of cairo here in nor-cal. looking like 1.4 per 1000hps...about 700g i guess. :thumbsup:
a couple of things; i have seen the flowering cycle prolonged about 5 days with a 4 week veg rather than a 2 week veg. my buddy with the over vegged plants went 5 week veg and i will know what the flower time is in about 4-5 more weeks. veg time does effect the flower time but not by much.
the 40/60 is a good way to figure out a general cut time. a week this way or that, but my 8-9 weekers normally stretch for about 3 weeks. after that the buds are well set and they may grow a little taller over the next week or two but nothing like the speed they started with...which is the "stretch phase". so a 3+ week stretch will be about 5+ more weeks until their ready to cut. my sour d stretched for 4+ weeks and took a total of 11+ weeks of flower. sub is right though, they gain a lot of weight in their last few days so cutting just a little early can really cost you.
as for curing, i dont wait until the stems snap. if you are trying to draw out the moisture, that is where it would come from. if they are dry enough to snap there is nothing left to draw out. i dry until they feel crunchy on the out side and have a little squish in the center and the stems still have a little bend to them. then de-bone the stems, at this point they can over dry very quickly. seal them in glass jars, a one gal jar should be able to hold 200-300g, or food grade containers. if they are not food grade they can pass along a plastic smell. store them in a dark place until the small dryer buds and the wetter tops have equalized in dryness somewhat. then air out the buds until they feel crispy again, then seal up, then air out... until you reach the cure youre looking for. never seal it up and forget about it or the whole jar will mold. it seems to increase the smell by leaving the larger sugar leaves on the bud rather than pre trimming. I never use paper bags, i think they take away from the overall smell and one time i used one that had a funky smell to it and fucked up about a 1/2lb. i'll never use them again. this is just my way. i started with someones cure method and over the years have changed things that i thought made for a better cure.
my BC looks great at 10 days post flip. about to put in the scrog as soon as im done trimming. BC babies have popped and ive made some more. this time im only using the dome for a few days as the heat mat and the dome keep the humi up around 90% and the cubes never get a chance to dry out. took the dome off for 15min yesterday, 24hrs after cutting them, with no wilting. today it comes off for 30min.
well im getting back to work. i fucking hate trimming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:
good to "see" yall!

[bertoxxulous]

Hey good to see you again ICBH!

Of note...my back plant, some pistils here and there have turned orange and kinda shriveled up, not alot but enouph buds have this on them, mabye 1 or 2 pistols per bud have this happening.

I'm not sure how I want to cure these as of yet, the paper bag seems pretty easymode but I don't have enouph experience to know what the effect will be, if I'll like it, etc.

Man that LK makes everything look dirty! Geeze.

The clones don't seem to like have the humi dome off them still...after 14 days after being cut is that a bad thing? I've been watering them regularly (twice a day) and started them Sat. with 1/4 strength Ionic Grow and the recommended dosage of LK (3 Tsp./Gal.). Every time I take that dome off though they get all wilty on me. Some of the tips of started turning pretty yellow, if you ya'll wanna see some more pics just let me know. I think later I'm going to put that dome back on.

[icbh707]

are the cubes drying out or are you keeping them wet? whats the humi with out the dome? are you spraying them?

[icbh707]

lol, 8 weeks is 60 days here in the uk, lol, smartass!;)

[subzero]

Bert,

I think you are back to overwatering the clones again! You want the cubes damp not wet, twice a day is too much, less is more for clones. yellowing is either over nute or ph related imo. keep the dome on if they need it. Lets have some photos please.

Icbh, yes looking back, my 60 days comment does look patronising doesnt it?!
I just wanted to get berts timing right as this is usually not on a new growers agenda and as you know timing is crutial.

Stay cool
Subzero :)

[icbh707]

yep, my cuttings normally dont pop roots until the cubes start to dry out. when i use a dome and spray them down every day i dont have to water at all for the first week or so. and after that i still only water once every couple of days.

sub, if i wasnt making smartass comments i might be confused with a mute. that was funny, good one.
true, timing is all important.

[bertoxxulous]

Ok, so to start here. I kept the humidity dome on them for 14 days...I didn't have to start watering the RW cubes till the middle of the second week so like day 12 roughly...they stayed moist till then. By the end of two weeks the tips and some edges started yellowing so I figured it was a lack of nutrients so I I started using 1/4 grow and LK. The yellowing is still progressing every day it seems. My PH is at 5.7 with the water I'm using to water them. Humidity is at 50% with the dome off. Here are the pics.

Also, I mainly took the humi dome off because I was getting a moldy smell in there and the toothpics I have in the RW to mark the clones started building up some mold on them (replaced the toothpicks btw). The cubes still have a faint moldy smell to them. Lastly, since I took the dome off the cubes dry out every 12 hours roughly.

[attachment=o218789] [attachment=o218790] [attachment=o218791] [attachment=o218792] [attachment=o218793]

[subzero]

Bert,
they are yellow arent they. let them dry out between waterings, the yellowing of the bottom leaves is normal but you dont want the growing tip to die. your clones wont take up nutes through watering the rw until they have roots, they dont yet. They will however take up nutes through the leaves. If you are brave maybe, maybe foiliar feed a little karma but don't overdo it. The key to rooting and growing in soil is making sure the plants/cuttings have a clear wet/dry cycle.

Subzero. :)

[bertoxxulous]

@ subzero - I put the dome on them with about 90% humidity overnight. They don't look any better but one of the stronger ones has about an 3/4 inch root sticking out the bottom of its cube this morning. Very thick root too.

[bertoxxulous]

I really don't want to post a ton of pictures but I'm going to anyways because I'm having somehwhat of a freak out session right now. To start, these first 2 pics are what I was talking about earlier with pistils turning red and shriviling up. Second set will be what I think is Nitrogen difficiency that has been happening mostly almost only with fan leaves on the main stem. It seems to early for a N deficiency to have started already. Third is something I don't know what. I've spent 2 hours stairing at my plants and consulting a sick plant guide and I really just don't know what to do. I definately don't know what the necrosis or whatever it is is. Most of the pics of the necrosis are from the back plant. This all started when the lights kicked on today and I saw most of the large fan leaves on my back plant drooping and turned that bright yellow/white color. This happened practically overnight. The middle plant this weekend, 2 fan leaves had turned white and shriviled up with some spots of necrosis and I clipped them because I thought it was due to where I made the bend because the only two leaves on the middle plant that had done that were the first set of large fan leaves directly after the bend and thought it just coincidence. I go in there today and the back plant was looking like the pictures. Lastly on somewhat of a side note, my buds smell like sour trash. Literally, not that skunky pot smell I'm used to, it smells like sour trash with a hint of pepper. Is that the strain or something I've done wrong?? /endrant

Sorry guys :(
[attachment=o218883] [attachment=o218884]

[bertoxxulous]

[attachment=o218885] [attachment=o218886] [attachment=o218887] [attachment=o218888] [attachment=o218889]

[bertoxxulous]

[attachment=o218890] [attachment=o218891] [attachment=o218892] [attachment=o218893] [attachment=o218894]

[bertoxxulous]

PH/PPM as of today: 5.8PH & [email protected]

[attachment=o218895] [attachment=o218896]

[subzero]

Hi bert,

As you know i am not a great fan of cfl lighting, The lower leaves (anything below the screen) will do that due to lack of light. Saying that, there does look like something has taken a bite on the end if one of those leaves? The bottom photo looks like some water splashed on the leaf and burned it with the lights on.

You have ventured a bit out of my comfort zone with the LK, I have never used it so I can't comment on problems that may arise while using it but I doubt if this is the problem.

Dont panic, if the problem spreads above the screen then you may need to worry a bit but right now they don't look too bad. The hygrozyme breaks down dead root material and turns it into food, I doubt this would be a problem either.


Hope this puts your mind at ease

Subzero :thumbsup:

[bertoxxulous]

I think your right. I think I was over re-acting because nothing much has really changed so far. I think however, I will be doing water changes weekly now just to be safe using the LK. LK seems to sink to the bottom of the water and the pump doesn't seem to do a great job picking it back up because my reservoir is so big.

[subzero]

Hi bert,

Can you put another pump in your resivoir, run it 24/7 just to stir everything up?

The smell will change as the plant matures so it is a bit early to know what the final product will smell like. You have done nothing wrong!

I'm pleased you have some roots, how do the rest (clones)look now?

Subzero.

[subzero]

Bert, Icbh, anyone.

Have you had any experience or know of anyone who has used canadian xpress nutes? The hydro shops seem to be pushing it quite a bit over here and I am tempted to give it a run but can't seem to find anyone who can comment about it. It aint a good start is it??

Any info please

Subzero.

[icbh707]

so many pics, they look ok though. the first 2 look like maybe a recessive trait, i would say the same as sub about a little water and light burn on those white spots and the rest looks like you need cal-mag...just fuckin with you sub. keep an eye on the pale leaves and keep checking the pics in the book if the leaves get worse. sometimes you cant make the match until your leaves look as bad as the ones in the book.
mildew smell in the cubes. you know you have the right wet/dry cycle when they get dry enough to get rid of that smell. you can let those cubes get very dry before the clone will wilt....but there is a fine line between too dry and just right. i went through everything you are going through with the dome. thats why i try to remove it as soon as i can now. i came to learn that the longer i kept the dome on, the harder it was to get them to not wilt when i took it off, also they rooted faster because they were able to dry out. the mildew smell usually started after a week so with the dome on, i try never to keep the dome on for longer than about 5 days.
ive never even heard of that nute. most everyone i know uses either GH or house and garden. i would say stick with whatever nute the guy helping you uses. reading what sub just wrote to you about LK sounds all too familiar. about a year ago i spent hours upon hours teaching a buddy of mine how to grow. he copied my setup to a t except for the nutes and went with 3G. he called me every night for the first 4 weeks asking me why his plants looked so bad with this 3G and my response was "ive never used it so i have no idea". he changed to GH and has had a better yield than me the last 2 runs...fucker.
this is why my first advise to you was follow subs directions. if you are going to switch nutes make sure you know somebody that uses it and that that person will help you when you need it. or stick with ionic until you know more about growing and can take on a change like that on your own.
...my 2 cents anyway...
keep up the good work.:thumbsup:

[icbh707]

i must have smoked too much tonight...i thought bert wrote about that nute stuff...oops...lol :stoned:
same thing goes for you too sub. stick with what you know;)
ive been telling everybody about nft and nobody out here has heard of it other than the hydro guy. i even have an old school, 65year old, full organic grower friend that i thought for sure would have at least read about it or something, but no. im going to give it a try one of these days and freak out all these coco/dirt farmers.

BC buds are just now setting. i think i may have ran out of time to scrog this run. BC moms are about 20in tall topped. first round of cuttings are vegging and second are about to pop roots. just got 2 blue dream clones and a sack of the finished product...very nice.

i need to get on the bonsai tree link you sent.

[bertoxxulous]

Hey guys, bottom of my reservoir is pretty dirty looking with the LK, I don't know how easy its going to be to clean up with all the stuff on top that I can't move. PH dropped pretty low when I checked it today right when the lights kicked on. Adjusted by adding straight tap to nock the PPM back down as well. Ended with 5.7PH (was at 5.2 right when lights kicked on) and [email protected]. Tommorow I plan on doing a reservoir drain/refill. Probably going to go either the same or a tad less of the nutes. Seeing some early signs of nute burn (nothing to drastic) on most of the leaf tips. Here are a couple shots of how they are looking so far. End of week 4 of bloom cycle, heading into week 5 starting monday.

[attachment=o219169] [attachment=o219170] [attachment=o219171] [attachment=o219172]

[syde00]

Hey bertox - they are looking great! i'm just curious, how many days into flowering are ya at this point? I'm about 2 weeks in now myself, you look like your a few weeks ahead of me at least i think

[bertoxxulous]

@syde00 - First, thanks for visiting my grow log =D. To answer your question, tonight at 8pm when my lights kick on will be the beginning of the 29th day of flower for these ladies. They have still been stretching, which I would have thought they would be done stretching by now but again I'm not totally positive these are AK-47 however the pictures I have seen of AK-47 look very similar to what I'm growing right now so I'm just going to assume I'm still growing AK-47. AK-47 is a 80 day flowering plant so thats where I'm kinda suprised that they are still stretching.

On another note, I've been puting this 100x pocket microscope to use and I've got some questions. I know I've seen a very detailed and clear guide of when to harvest plants based off of looking at the resin glands on the buds. Now, it just says buds and doesn't specify bud leaves. The resin glands on the buds are still clear, but on most of the bud leaves the resin glands are milky with a few clear and one or two orange ones here and there. Should I be basing when to harvest off the resin glands on the actual buds or the bud leaves?

[subzero]

Bert,
here in the uk...................... ak47 is 60ish days... again! lol ;)

When you manicure the plant you are going to cut the leaves off so you don't need to worry about the colour of the crystals on them, its the buds your after. Think of them as pieces of fruit, let them ripen.

Yeah, maybe I'll give the karma a miss. I would worry about it blocking everything up. At least I learned something without spending money for a change!

Those plants look great.


Icbh,

get reading about nft, It is worth a shot.

Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - after changing my reservoir out today, I couldn't get all the stuff off the bottom but I believe it may be alot of stuff that the hydrozyme is breaking down and the LK has a tendancy to turn things a lighter shade of brown so it looks really dirty on the bottom of my reservoir. However it didn't affect my PPM at all because I refilled the reservoir with 20gal. plain tap and there it was sitting at [email protected] which was less than I've ever read my straight tap yet. Course I'm also using hydroton and I don't think I did a great job of cleaning it for these plants either. I will say 2 days after using it there was huge resin production...like there was no resin, and then there was a shit load. I don't know if it was the natural progression and just plain timing or if the LK had anything to do with it. I read stuff saying it did, but again I'm skeptical because I have no peronal data to base this off of without using LK. Food for thought. And yea I was really stoned when I posted that. 60 days! They should have stopped stretching by now....Yet they still have been, but slower. Really hoping these buds fatten up nicely. Fatten up like little christmas trees.

[subzero]

hi bert,
had to go away for a few days, hows the plants now? any more pics?

Subzero. :smokin:

[icbh707]

looking good bert!:thumbsup:
the only product i use not made by GH is called bloom. they make a whole line of stuff to be used through out but i only use the final. its only 1ml/liter for the last 2 weeks before flush, which is about half of what they say to use some of their other products and costs about half as much as the others. i really like it and all my buddys use it now. just thought id throw it out there because i thought the same thing about the final. sure the buds get bigger after adding it but they get bigger in the last 2 weeks anyways.

heres a shot of a grape ape cola with a wine bottle for scale. i broke down this room after the grape ape run. the person that was running it just was not retaining a lot of the info i was teaching. now the equipment is just sitting in storage:(. sub you wanna move to cali?;)

[icbh707]

bloom final

http://soladome.com.au/index.php/Hydroponics/Boosters/Bloom-Final-1-Litre-to-2.5-Litre.html

[subzero]

icbh,
looked at the actual site that final comes from but no way could i get it over here. I then read about this stuff called ooze (on the same site), check this out. Made me laugh.

OOZE

Bloom OOZE stimulates secondary metabolites which aid in the synthesis of terpenoids and polyphenolic compounds. described as terpenophenolic compounds or prenylated polyketides. This stimulates geranyl pyrophosphate (GPP) isopentyl pyrophosphate (IPP) dimethyl allyl pyrophosphate (DPP) which are responsible for the development of essential oils in flowering plants.

WTF! :what:

I wonder if nature has realized it needs to use this stuff?

Yes I may end up in Cali some day, I have a mate out there somewhere, but who knows.

Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

@idbh - man that purple is crazy lookin! Wow!

I was foaming at the mouth to get these pictures posted today guys!!! Sorry it took so damn long I've been really fucking busy its rediculous. Anyways, to start here, two days ago PH started dropping like a rock. I noticed alot of debree in reservoir and after doing some searching figured that the most likely cause was a dirty reservoir so today I pulled it out and cleaned it and refilled the fucker again. I've been filling/draining the reservoir now every weekend since I started with all these various additives figuring it would be the best thing to do. Anyways, after the first watering this evening the PH went up by .1 and I'm going to check it here again in another hour after their second watering to see where its trending too. PPM as of right now is [email protected] so thats probably 1.8-2.0 EC range there abouts 900PPM is 1.8 EC for me which happens to be the recommended EC on the Ionic Grow/Bloom bottles. Man they are smelling crazy ass strong now even with the carbon filter. It wouldn't be such an issue but since we are having to keep that door open the smell is wafting into the rest of the house but right now strong smelling candles seem to be enouph right now for the smell. I'm pretty worried about how bad harvest time is going to be....I'd just shut the damn door but the heat would be outrageous in the room if I did. I think I'm going to hang em in the tent though with the carbon filter and start running that ozone thingy as well. The smell is definately not getting out of the house though so thats good. As of right now I honestly think a non-pot smoker wouldn't even notice if the came into my place but a pot smoker would definately notice.

Anyways....Here is what I think could possibly qualify for MJ porn.....(taken next to 20oz. bottle) :rastasmoke:

[attachment=o219647] [attachment=o219648] [attachment=o219649] [attachment=o219650] [attachment=o219651]

[bertoxxulous]

[attachment=o219652] [attachment=o219653]

[subzero]

Right on bert! looking good!

How did your clones do in the end?

We warned you about the smell didn't we! I would put the ozone generator on a timer if i were you and try to just get rid of the smell, as i mentioned before too much is not great for your health.

Subzero. :thumbsup:

[bertoxxulous]

Only one clone pulled through, it still looks alittle rough but it rooted and is now finally starting to grow. I have it set in a 2" tray with non-fertilized potting soil and have only watered in once in the last week and the soil is still moist. I'll take a photo tonight and show ya when I get home.

[bertoxxulous]

To give some more follow on info...The other 5 clones never ended up rooting so I tossed em. This was the only one that actually ended up showing roots at all. I watered all my clones with 1/4 strength Ionic Grow + 1/4 strength LK for about 3 days and they didn't like it at all so I switched them back to 5.6PH tap water. After this one rooted I put it in ProMix Potting soil (soil doesn't have any nutes its peat based or whatever). It looks like its got some sort of nute burn or maybe it a PH burning of all the tips including all the new growth. I'm not really sure what it could be at this point. Again this whole soil thing is really new to me but I was to afraid to try flushing the soil since its been moist since I watered it last week with straight un-PH'd tap water. My tap water is almost consistantly 7.0 but it was 6.8 when I watered the clone with it in the soil.

Here is teh pic's...

[attachment=o219711] [attachment=o219712]

[subzero]

She will be ok bert, you might want to top her as soon as she is established. you will get more clones this way, and by the looks of things you are going to need them in a few weeks for crop number 2!

What are your plans for the next grow? Maybe splash some cash for a hps?

Was it your favorite that survived?

You have done well, I think that you over pampered your clones and that is your next hurdle, They are small with no roots, where are they meant to put all the stuff you are feeding them??? Remember that they are weeds who's purpose in life is to grow and breed, they do better with a bit of neglect (just a bit!) but you are on the right track now! have you thought about building a diy bubble cloner with your vast skills?

Talk soon.
Subzero :thumbsup:

[bertoxxulous]

@Subzero - Yea I definately dicked up the clones. Unfortunately the one that survived was the clone from the back plant. For some reason the back plants buds are growing strange in comparison to the other two plants...basically its got like multiple heads on the very top but it isn't bulking up below very much and is generally more leafy in the lower bud area than actual bud. It also seems that its pistils are more white still than the middle and front plants and I'm geussing it really needs more time in the oven than the other two plants. I'm about to get a really nifty item that will allow me to really tell how far along my plants are and I'll be able to post some screenshots too I believe. Thats to be determined as of right now.

You know what, I hadn't thought about doing the bubble cloner...I'd read about one but didn't get a good enouph idea of how to implement it and since I've been doing rockwool cubes I didn't even think it was an option. One thing I was thinking about changing though was to start using rapidrooters instead of rockwool cubes. I read a pretty long thread on the matter and it seems that alot of growers think rapidrooters is the way to go so once I run out of these rockwool cubes I think I'm going to give them a try.

About the lights....honestly I'm pretty satisified with the results so far honestly. I was alittle gun shy about how far I could lower them but now that the plants are responding well I'd really like to get some more time using these fluoro's with the SCROG set up. As far the SCROG goes I get probably the most even light I could manage right now with this fluro ballast and the lights. I think the HPS as of right now is probably in the distant future. I think right now I'd like to get some more experience growing with what I've got before I upgrade anymore...try some different strains out, get some quality seeds and so on. I really like SCROG'ing and I think for sure I just plan on growing like that from this point forward.

[subzero]

What is the nifty item? Do tell!

You probably just have a slower pheno mom, keep an eye on the one in the tank to see how it grows, for next time.

If you built a cloner, you could forget about the rooting medium all together. Just put the rooted clones straight into the hydroton. If I were using hydroton, that is what I would do.

Off for the weekend now, hope to see some pics on my return ;)

Stay cool
Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

[attachment=o220018] [attachment=o220019] [attachment=o220020] [attachment=o220021]

[bertoxxulous]

Middle - [attachment=o220025] [attachment=o220026] [attachment=o220027]

Back - [attachment=o220028] [attachment=o220029]

[JD1stTimer]

Nice trichs!!! Be sure to post some pics when they start to go amber. :)

[bertoxxulous]

@JD1stTimer - First off, thanks for visiting my grow log, second....from things that I've read so far, it seems that I remember someone recommending harvesting when they are at 50/50 clear milky. That was my plan because I'm more interested in getting a head high than a body buzz.

From spending alot more time with my....(Nifty Item) 35x zoom digital camera (cost $46 with shipping)....it seems that the two AK-47's are more like 70% milky with a brown trich every so often. The Kali Mist, being a 11 week flower I'm pretty much screwed because I need to harvest all these at the same time due to having to go out of town for a extended period of time in a couple of weeks and the fact that these AK's are pretty much ready to go (looked up flower time on AK-47 said 7 weeks and thats pretty much right on the ball I'd say...it will be 7 weeks exactly this comming saterday (06/20/09). So! Yesterday I gave them one more dose of LK and Boost. This comming Teusday (06/16/09) I will begin flushing all 3 plants because I just don't have a choice with the Kali Mist (I've ran every scenario through my head...trust me this was the only answer I could logically come up with...I really really really wanted to do it right but I just can't with that back plant). Also, it seems that the only surviving clone I had WAS the Kali Mist clone so if I can keep her alive then I'll be growing Kali Mist after this harvest. Well, without further ado, here are the most recent pictures, I took 10 for better perspective. Pic #3 = Kali Mist.

[attachment=o220096] [attachment=o220097] [attachment=o220098] [attachment=o220099] [attachment=o220100]

[bertoxxulous]

Also too note, I'm getting a Calcium difficiency as well, which I guess isn't much of a suprise I suppose...but is it bad even though its this late it flowering? Pic #2 Kali Mist.

[attachment=o220106] [attachment=o220107] [attachment=o220108] [attachment=o220109] [attachment=o220110]

[subzero]

Bert

that is a nifty thing! Nice pics, very nice.

Dont be too quick to harvest, by all means keep an eye on the crystals but alot of those white hairs should brown off and appear to shrink back into the gland as it fills with resin. Most beginners harvest too early (it's not surprising with a room full of weed that you can't smoke!)

They don't look like they will finish (ak's) for another 3 weeks imo. They will fatten up more than that for sure. They will flop all over the place!

Serious seeds ak says 63 days, you wouldn't have femaleseeds.nl at 48 days (theirs use to be called ak48 because it would finish in 48 days in perfect conditions),they weren't around 10 years ago.

Kali mist! WTF?? where did that come from? Until 5 minutes ago I didn't even know you had a Kali mist!!! How did I miss that???? :stoned:
Unbelievable.

Don't worry too much about weird things happening at this point, your regeime is good, and your room is clean, keep the ventilation going as mold is really the only thing that could spoil your crop now.

Fuckin' A Bert!

Subzero.

[syde00]

They are looking great bertox!

they sure started getting frosty over the last couple weeks eh

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - You didn't miss the Kali Mist man, it was more me but I thought all the seeds I had were all AK-47 and that back plant has been different than my front and middle AK-47's the whole time and I just thought it was some wierd genetic abnormality or something and after showing pics to the place I got the seeds from told me that there had definately been some Kali Mist with the AK-47 received and the seeds must have been mixed together so that back plant turning out to be Kali Mist explains alot of why it smells/looks/and has been growing different this whole time. I looked at that gypsy place you told me about that had the female seeds and their flowering time listed for AK-47 for the serious seeds listing says 7 weeks...thats where I got that from...but another place has 9 weeks like you said too. Its probably 9 weeks cause I would say only 30-40% of the calyx's have turned orange so far. I'm thinking maybe my 35x digital camera's LED lights are creating to much light refracting on the resin glands and making them look milky. Again, I was going off Zandor's statement that he harvests his bud when they are at 50% clear/ 50% milky. I can say for certain that at or around 30% is milky...or maybe again its an optical illusion created by the LED's on my camera...I don't know. I have however noticed alot of new bud growth with fresh white calyx's so I think your probably right that I do infact need more time...at least a couple weeks. Only thing that makes inconvienient for me is that they will be un-attended for 4 days while I'm out of town here soon which could be a PH/PPM disaster because it seems to change daily and I'm having to add at least 1 gallon of water every day at this point. Have any suggestions? Also, what I think is Calcium defficiency is getting worse....if I do plan to grow these out for a couple more weeks, my water change I plan on doing tommorow I'm going to add probably 100ppm of CalMag to the mix (believe it or not my damn PPM pen came calibrated 100PPM in the positive off so my tap is actually between 100-200ppm and now that I'm using nutes here in the bloom cycle with no Calcium I'm pretty sure thats whats going on...it definately looks like pictures of Calcium deficiency).

@syde00 - Hey Syde! Yes they are....the pictures honestly do not do the amount of trichomes on these buds justice but the 35x camera does I think! I'll have to check yours out again I've just been busier than hell these last few weeks.

[subzero]

Hi bert,

I just noticed you got rusty banned, good on ya. Does he really think that everyone who starts posting here is a inexperienced newbee? What is his problem? I would love to meet this guy, is he for real? Anyways.......

If you plan to start your flush the day before you leave with ph'd water only they should be fine for 4 days, the ph might be a bit high when you get back but you will have much better end results than chopping early. as for the kali being in the same tank, just let it flush for the additional week or 2.

If you are going to flush soon you are going to see lots of defficencies because thats what you want from a flush. I don't think adding good old cal mag would change anything at this point, but it ain't gonna hurt either.

Done good bert and thanks for watching my back, i'm with ya if you need me mate.

Subzero.

[syde00]

no worries bertox, honestly nothing too exciting happening with mine over the last week or so... the ladies have just gotten hairier and starting to get frosty, looking forward to another week or 2 when i;m caught up to your latest pics though :D

[bertoxxulous]

@subzero - I think I'm going to go ahead and go with what you say (it really makes alot of sense), especially after looking at my buds yesterday and noticing some newer growth you know...its worth the wait if I can get a significantly higher yield. NP about Rusty man...I thought what he was saying was uncalled for especially since honestly, really really honestly, I wouldn't be growing right now I don't think (aka given up) if you hadn't helped me out...and really thats just been one of a list of things you've helped me out with since I started this grow so I most definately have you back!

@syde00 - They look alot bigger since I looked in on em with teh button buds, they are going to be very nice! You'll definately have to tell me how those babies taste..I'm especially curious.

[icbh707]

hey bert,
shit man, i go on a rafting trip and come back to your 20oz a&w donkey dicks. way to go brother!
love the new camera. a buddy called me to say he ordered one the other day, i'll let him know how cool they are...he paid $99. where'd you get yours?
you got rusty booted? lol! i miss all the fun! that puss was a non-stop shit talker.
so, im reading about the lost clones and thinking "maybe you should try rappidrooter" and 2 posts later you say the same thing. i couldnt get my shit together enough to presoak my rockwool in 5.5 so i stopped by and picked some RR myself...seeing as im a GH guy. they dry out a little faster and you cant set them down because of the rounded bottom but they do work great. im sold on them. i also changed 2ft t5 floros. another thing that helped me cloning was rereading about transpiration. i now leave the lid on for a week to ten days but remove it every day and fan the cuttings. i leave the dome off longer and longer day by day.
i really think the scrog was the way to go with my BC but once again i couldnt get my shit together. i cant wait to see how you fill in that screen on the next run.
what up sub,
once again im in total agreement with your thoughts and advise....almost total agreement...calmag.
i normally wait until theres about 70% red hairs and the tops are falling over each other. the second growth (more white hairs that end up creating multiple nobs growing out of the tops) normally happens with about 2-3 weeks left.
i was thinking the same thing...kali mist? wtf? how long was i gone?
watch out with the ozone generator, i hear its nothing you want to be around.
4 days of flush sounds like a much better idea then an early cut. this is when they gain a lot of their weight.
i also think you should think about getting an hid for winter, in the mean time keep up the good work and think of how to vent a hood.
keep an eye on the mold. i normally see it in the cluster of mid size buds about a foot down from the top.
im sure theres more but i need to clean my res.

one more thing sub- ive never mothered before and now i have one phenotype BC mom. i was going to stick her outside but now im looking at her and the internodal spacing is much tighter then the normal looking mom. how often do you get a pheno with beneficial characteristics? im not sure if its even worth taking a few cuttings off of her and growing them to finish in the off chance shes a rock star.

[icbh707]

by the way, this BC is crazy. the stems are heavily covered in crystals and a lot of the fan leaves have crystals out to the tips...and i still have 4-5 weeks to go. never seen anything like it. :D

[icbh707]

BC rapidrooter pic

[subzero]

Bert,
Your on the right track, no real comments but great work! :thumbsup:

Icbh,

If your clones from the clone guy came from the same mom, all the pheno's will be the same anyway. Because I don't have unlimited space, I grow out 10seeds, clone em and pick the two best females as moms. if I had room for 100 or even 1000 obviously the chances of finding a really special one would be greater and then you would have more selection for breeding if you wanted to go that route. I am really a hobby grower and like to make my space as efficent as possible. I wouldn't want to explain why i had 1000 seedlings in the aircraft hangar down the road! Also when it goes wrong with lots of plants it is heartbreaking.

Excuse my ignorance but can you explain to me how this clone guy business works. Although cannabis is fairly well tolerated here there is no medical structure, hence no clone guy! or what?

Good to have you back.

Subzero.

[icbh707]

see now thats what i was thinking i remembered from biology class but in reading wikipedia's definition i was wondering if environmental factors can bring out recessive traits causing a new phenotype. i really need to take some biology classes its been too long and i never really did too well in that class anyway. so heres what they say:
A phenotype is any observable characteristic or trait of an organism: such as its morphology, development, biochemical or physiological properties, or behavior. Phenotypes result from the expression of an organism's genes as well as the influence of environmental factors and possible interactions between the two.
i guess this one clone could be from another mother than the rest of the clones i got. or im thinking it was stressed at some point early on and just has not started growing normal yet. the fan leaves are smaller, the nodes are stacked tighter and theres less purple streaks in the upper stems and branches. it really looks like a different strain. maybe its kali mist...;)


so cali's law (prop 215 hb 420) is a state wide max of 99 and i think min of 6 plants per MJ patient. then counties set their own numbers. sonoma county (the 707) is 30 plants and no more than 3lbs per card but used to be the state max of 99 plants, mendo county changes its numbers every year it seems. some counties like el dorado county were written by law enforcement and cannabis advocates and are more detailed, 10 vegging and 10 flowering and i think 1 or 2 mothers for indoor, outdoor is 10 to mid summer and 10 to the end of fall. i think that was for seed growers to have time to weed out the males but it could also work for forced flowering through light deprivation. if you are not using your card to grow you can sign your grow rights over to another card holder in either a cooperative or a collective. cards are obtained through almost any doc and some are easier than others. clubs sell everything pot related. it looks as though cali is going to pass a law next year that will make it legal for anyone 21 or older to walk in off the streets and buy an oz and the state will take a $50 tax on that oz. growers will pay a one time $5000 fee and an annual $2000 fee. the last poll had it passing with 56%. :):(:wtf:

so hey sub- i just bought my tickets today. i'll be in germany from aug 5th-26th. amsterdam for a night or 2...or 3 around the 7-11th and england the 15th. hope we can hook up.:thumbsup:

[icbh707]

also, a buddy of mine, a few months back, was pulled over with 106 clones. he had no drivers licens, his car was not registered and had no valid mj cards...and was in napa county where the limit is like 8 or something. they wrote it up as 99 to keep it a state matter and he ended up getting like 40 days in napa county jail... where they serve you wine and cheese before passing out the cuban cigars. cali is the place to be.
as easy as it is to grow out here there are still idiots like my buddy who manage to fuck it up.

[bertoxxulous]

Hey everyone, heres the pics from tonight, they looking pretty decent other than that Calcium defficiency. Reservoir is already looking VERY filthy again so I think what I'm going to do is probably Teus. or Wedn. I'm going to drain, clean the reservoir, and start the flush with just PH tap. I will flush till July 4 weekend which is exactly 9 weeks on the 4th unless they really start deteriorating fast.

[attachment=o220837] [attachment=o220838] [attachment=o220839] [attachment=o220840] [attachment=o220841]

[bertoxxulous]

[attachment=o220842] [attachment=o220843] [attachment=o220844] [attachment=o220845]

[subzero]

Lookin' good bert! Nice one! It looks like they should be near enough ready by the 4th. Looking forward to some harvest pics. What are your plans for your next crop? I think you have something to celebrate on the 4th of July.

Icbh,
Thanks for the legalaties, very interesting indeed.

I'm no scientist and I agree that different conditions will show variations and different growth patterns of the same pheno You see variation of the same pheno in a normal grow depending on the position in the room and feeding schedule ect. But I can't see the genetics altering at all. Sure after generations they will adapt to their environments but i'm guessing its from another mom probably cali mist.

Sadly I am miles away from the midlands and am working every weekend I can at the moment so our chances of meeting are small. Maybe I'll get to Cali soon.

Subzero.

[bertoxxulous]

Thanks Sub...just wanted to drop a line and let you guys know i had to start the flush yesterday (tues 06.23.09) due to dirty reservoir making the PH drop like a rock. Well, see how this goes 0_o

[subzero]

Pic's before the chop????

[bertoxxulous]

I'm sorry I didn't get a shot of pics from last weekend...my life has been so busy with all sorts of shit I just haven't had the time but I do have some new pics here after the chop...tell me what ya think!

[attachment=o222036] [attachment=o222037]

[subzero]

Well done bert.

I bet you were shocked at the shrinkage weren't you?

How much did you wind up with? whats your opinion of your first homegrown smoke?

What are your plans for the next round?

Take care,
Subzero. ;)

[bertoxxulous]

you know, I am suprised by the shrinkage but I had someone tell me they could shrink up to 1/3rd the size they originally were and that definately hasn't happend. I'd say a max of maybe 3/4 the size they originally were. The Kali Mist has shrunk the least. I'll be putting them in jars today and I'll take some pics of the buds and post them tonight. Here are the pics after they had been drying and cutting them into nugs.

Top left pile was the front plant, Top right pile was the middle, and the bottom right was the Kali Mist back plant. Little pile to the bottom left was the lowest nodes on the middle and front AK-47's which I'm currently smoking...although it hasn't had time to cure its a very long lasting heavy head buzz...just what I wanted. I think after the rest of this stuff properly cures its going to be some really heavy shit. I'd say that bottom left pile is about 1/8th ounce and I've barely made a dent in it cause its just soo much stronger than anything else I've had before. All I can say is....wow...I never thought I'd get to this point srsly. Your assistance with all this subzero and everyone else has been priceless...there is no value that I could use to quantify what your help has done for me and mine. THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
[attachment=o222240]

Main cola off front plant.
[attachment=o222241]

My current plans are to wait for some red diesel comming my way hopefully starting up operations again in middle to late Sept. after the weather has cooled down. If the red diesel falls through I'm not sure yet how I want to get some seeds to start from again. I still feel kinda ancy about doing the mail order seed thing....but its what would be the most convenient. I had read some stuff about sending it to a place where you don't grow...and I don't have a place like that so thats where alot of my discomfort stems from.

[icbh707]

good for you bert! nice to know youre enjoying your own bud. well i guess this party is about over. you dont have to go home but you cant stay here! its been nice getting to know you guys and to toss around ideas.
hey bert, i would just get some seeds. maybe i've been in cali so long that weed is just no big deal but i think most governments out there are not going to be too concerned about a guy with 10 seeds and a t5 now a days. i dont know, seems like they should be out chasing meth heads not trying to bust you for what, 4ozs?
just the amount of investigative man hours and legal paper work to get the private information that you bought the seeds...well, lets just say i think youre good to go.
sub- too bad we wont be able to meet up. i'll smoke a big old cali fatty in amsterdam in your honor. it was a nice thing you did helping bert out, fate really, you being an ionic pro and having just dealt with the tent thing yourself stepping in just as his plants were on their way out. very cool.
alright guys, keep in touch.:hippy:

[bertoxxulous]

I think you may very well be right about the seed thing icbh707....and yes very much it was really cool how it all worked out wasn't it???

It has been nice with this whole grow and I'm much appreciative of all your help! Look for my new grow log here in the not-so-distant-future =p