yellowing leaves/stunted growth

[volak]

Please help. The pics are my 6wk old superskunk.

deep water culture bubblers. 600w hps. general hydroponics flora series nutes.

Cloning was fine. formulex and rhizotonic in rockwool cubes under fluro.

About a wk after transplanting to the bubblers, yellowing of the larger fan leaves started.

guy in hydro shop suspected heat stress, so i substituted my open reflector for a cool shade.

Still the yellowing continued. Suspecting the nute solution, I changed it for fresh. Used the recomended dilution ratio, and ph'd the solution to 6.

Also added a little superthrive to the mix.

I like to crop all the side shoots when i flower so as to finish with 1 large bud. This has worked fine for me previous, with coco medium and nutes..but this time, i noticed the new shoots were comming out twisted and deformed, and the budsites are much smaller and spindly than i would expect.

They are now 2 wks into flower on a 12/12. And as you can see, they look half dead.

My temps are fine, good air circulation, only thing i dont know about is nute solution temp.

Too add..my mate has EXACTLY the same setup, same clones from same mother, same nutes same everything, and he has grown some monster buds.
As did I last crop.

The thing i cannot understand is that i have changed nothing. I have used this system for 12 months..all fine..now i am spontaneously getting probs.

Im stumped.

wat do u all think ?

[phatsesh101]

i think you should fill out the form.
it helps to narrow questions to many at this point starting with water

[volak]

E-indoor or outdoor....indoor.
E-soil, soilless, coco, aero, or hydroponic....hydro.
E-specific medium.... clay pebbles
CSL-Soil type/brand....hydroton
HCL-Hydro/aero/soilless system type....deep water culture.
SCL-Anything you have added to the soil
SCLR-Soil or slab runoff pH
E-Water source....tapwater
E-Source water pH....7.0.
HRT-Source water EC (if hydro)
E-Age of plant....6wks
E-Type of fertilizer....flora series
E-Rate of application (if hydro, this is your PPM number, preferably after each component is added)
E-Lighting source and distance from plant....600w hps coolshade, 2.5 feet.
E-Air temperature (both day and night if you are running a dark period)
HD-Reservoir temperature
E-Air % Relative humidity
E-Lighting schedule....12/12
E-Type of ventilation your room has....fan in/fan out/oscilating fan inside.
TR-Did you pre-soak your media in pH corrected solution?....no.

There ya go...hope i did it right, couldnt answer all the questions tho.

[Divestoned]

your PH needs to be at 5.8. But it look's like the classic "over-watered". Lets start by changing the ph and go from there.


Dive:stoned:

[volak]

A close up of one of the leaves. Looks like some kind of nute lockout to me..but what and why..baffles me.

[denialisback]

your PH is too high for a hydro setup.. you need to reduce your PH nutrient solution with some PH down.. 6.8 ought to do fine, but im told on firm assurance 6.2 is really where its at for hydro.

Hope this helps.. cause this explains a possible simple solution to your problem.

Remember, add a bit.. if it starts to recover.. add a bit more the next day or too.. not too much at once!! NOT TOO MUCH AT ONCE! :-)

I say that twice, because you don't want to seal your plants demise.. hehe

Have fun.

Peace,
Denial

[denialisback]

A close up of one of the leaves. Looks like some kind of nute lockout to me..but what and why..baffles me.

I would imagine so :) PH 7.0 is a bit high for hydro, you'll probably get lockout..

heh that leaf literally looks stereotypical of the suffering of reverse osmosis.. :)

one more thing ... For flower use phosphorous acid ph down in your res.
For veg use nitric acid ph down in your res!


ALSO: If nothing has changed and you are using the same phenotype plants, its guaranteed to be a change in the water type or the amount of watering your giving/these pheno's need... worth looking into also.. well pointed out divestoned.

Peace,
Denial

[volak]

ok, my ph is now just about 6. Overwatering ? The roots are completely submerged in the nute solution...which has an airstone in it.
I grow in deep water culture bubblers.

[volak]

There was some confusion with the form. I thought the 'source ph' meant the ph of the water when it comes out the tap...which is about 7. I always ph down to about 6, but with phosphoric not nitric.

[denialisback]

There was some confusion with the form. I thought the 'source ph' meant the ph of the water when it comes out the tap...which is about 7. I always ph down to about 6, but with phosphoric not nitric.

ok well phosphoric acid is the right thing to use in flower anyways :thumbsup:

If your PH is 6 you shouldn't really be getting lockout.. is there any possibility you are overnuting them? this can also cause the same symptoms, mainly lockout.. too much phosphorous maybe?? This could be the case if you are using a high phosphorous content fert and lots of ph down? Let us know :thumbsup:

Oh, also, what is your PH runoff?

Peace,
Denial

[Divestoned]

DWC require's that some of the root's be exposed to air...so maybe your water level is too high? hence the over-watered look? Im guessing that your root's are more yellow/brown,they should be closer to white.The yellow /brown would suggest poor root health which will cause many confusing issue's.

Dive:stoned:

[volak]

im using the general hydro flora series nutes, which i have been told are the best nutes on the market ? 15ml grow, 10ml micro, 5ml bloom..in veg. 15ml bloom, 10ml micro, 5ml grow..in flower.

I have tried stonger and weaker solutions but no change.

I will change to a diferent ph down next time im veging and see what happens.

PH RUNOFF ? does this apply in a DWC system ? Thought that was just for growing in pots ?

[volak]

yes, the roots are more yellow/brown than white. I use rhizotonic for the first few weeks.
What can i do to improve root health ?
In DWC..how full should the reservoir be ?
What size airstone for 18 litre res ?

[Divestoned]

Well.. knowing the problem,and knowing the cure are 2 different thing's.I use ebb/flow and drip system's.You should find some of our DWC grower's to get more precise info.

Dive:stoned:

[bigtopsfinn]

Been reading up on DWC, and once the roots grow down from the net pots, you should keep your water level below the pots (like Dive said). Also the recommended ph for hydro is between 5.2-5.8, with 5.5 being optimal.

[volak]

ok, quick update.

lights off temperature...18c
lights on temperature....24c

so no probs there i shouldnt imagine. My solution level is always kept about 3 inches below the pots, and the airstone is adequete for my size res.

Therefore..my problem MUST be nute solution related.

Im gonna flush out my system, and replace solution with ph 5.8 full strength grow solution. I am on 12/12 lights now, but like to keep with a GROW solution until about 3 wks in.

Will keep the posts comming.

[volak]

thought i would post some pics of my last skunk grow. Again, i used the same methods for the last grow, as my curent grow.
The pics speak for themselves.

[volak]

DAMMIT !!! ive just ben reading a thread on Pythium.

Early stages..Yellowed, droopy and wilting leaves (possibly exhibiting mineral deficiencies). Leaf curl over - ram's horns' - roots are unable to uptake nutrients at that strength because they are infected.

pH becomes more acidic (pH should rise slowly in a healthy system)

My ph DID drop to around 4.6

Reduced water consumption, slow/stunted growth, roots a bit dirty looking..

DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT...its all making sense now.
I said the problems all came on sudenly without me making any environment, system or nutrient changes..same mother plant..which is fine..

Im not the most sterile of growers, who is ? My reservoirs are comming up for 2 years old. After one crop i remember leaving the root ball in the idle nutrient tank for abnout a week, until it smelt that bad I HAD to throw it out..and i dont think i have sterelized the tank..EVER ???

Be clean kiddies...or this could happen to you.

I think it might be time for a Hydrogen Peroxide root dunk !!!

And a sterelizing mission ???

[volak]

A first class example of the early/intermediate stages of root rot I would say ?

Anyone in agreement ????

I will try to salvage.

[Divestoned]

Make change's one at a time starting with the most likely,and give each change a week to take effect.
The root's really dont look that bad at this point,If you can nail it down pretty soon you'll be good to go.


Dive:stoned:

[volak]

yeah thanks. Whilst im getting to the bottom of it, do you think i should put the lights back on a 18/6 cycle or keep them on a 12/12 ?

i dont wanna give them anymore stress than neccessary, but they have kinda stopped growing for the past 2 weeks whilst they were getting sick ?

they been in flower 2 weeks, but i would have expected more growth.

[Divestoned]

It's ok too flower them at this point,and trying to re-veg will cause a delay in growth.Start by getting the ph and ppm to optimal level's,then we'll work from there. Dropping the water level an inch or 2 might not be a bad idea also.

Dive:stoned:

[volak]

ok, ive just flushed the roots and media in a strong oxy plus solution. Rinsed them in fresh water and left them to sit while i went to the hydro shop.
On my return, i stripped down the system, disinfected it with oxy plus, rinsed and setup again.

i refilled the res with half strength nutes, and a few ml's of PYTHOFF anti pythium additive per 10 litres...PH'd to 5.9.

I have kept the res level high, touching the bottom of the pots, as the guy in the hydro shop suggested that this was neccessary for the PYTHOFF to get to all of the root ball.

Kept the lights 12/12.

I realise i will have to keep adding the pythoff throughout the plants life as it kills the good bacteria as well as the bad, so without it, the problem would probably return.

I shall give it a week and see what happens.

Will let you know.

[Divestoned]

Right on.Sound's like progress.

Dive:stoned:

[volak]

PYTHIUM...PYTHIUM...PYTHIUM.

Yes, all the frantic scurrying about last monday morning, accomplished NOTHING.

Im now cutting my losses, scrapping this grow, and considering a total disinfect of my entire grow environment. This will include, total stripdown and disinfect of entire hydroponic system and growroom, destruction of motherplant and all clones, then an investment in new, fresh stock.

I feel like my entire fucking family has been wiped out.

Im now educating myself on preventative measures, which seem largely to concentrate on a sterile growing environment..which mine has never been.

DONT LET THIS HAPPEN TO YOU.

[blackjack101]

Im no expert but since your two weeks into flowering it could simply be drawing the energy from the leaves to the bud.

[volak]

BLACKJACK...look at the roots man...look closely at the leaves...thats no nitrogen deficiency.

I was reading a thread the other day, where this guy kept a grow log and was getting problems. Started of with yellowing leaves...

He was advised to ajust PH.

Leaves got worse..he was advised about nitrogen deficiency...leaves got worse...he was advised about nute temps, overwatering, growroom temps..etc..

Only wen we saw his roots, (grown in DWC)..which were non existant, was the problem revealed.

ROOT ROT.

Im seeing this a lot, growers are battling on with diseased plants, ajusting PH, tweaking temps, adding expensive nute additives, when what they should be doing is destroying everything and starting from scratch.

Obviously, you cannot be too premature with this decision, but in my 10 yrs or so growing experience, i have learned that weed plants are hardy little fuckers..and as long as there are no EXTREME wrongdoings in the growroom, they will be just fine.
You CAN allow the PH to rise a few clicks, you CAN overfert with only minor leaf tip burn, you CAN let your growroom temps rise to 35 degrees, you Can go out and get trashed all weekend only to find upon your return that you forgot to water your plants before you left, and they have all wilted..they bounce back after a few hours.

The agreed opinion is that sloppy monitoring of grow conditions like these will result in a drop in yeild, which i can go along with, but i recon, from a plant that will usualy yeild 3oz, all but the most severe abuse will only result in a drop of about half an oz or so.

I have grown in pots, coco slabs, waterfarms, NFT, DWC, and outside. Over the years i have over fert, under fert, over watered, under watered, used unbalaced PH, burnt the tips with the lamp, ..the list goes on...but i have still managed to scrape a decent crop EVERY TIME.

So, I say...WATCH OUT FOR PYTHIUM..its out there, like a dodgy copper lurking around a corner, just waiting for the right opportunity to make good the arrest.

RR.

[CFLhydro]

I'm trialling some nutrients from flairform and saw this on their website today.
Just read your thread and thought it might be of interest.

Pythoff: Hydroponic nutrient conditioner (http://www.flairform.com.au/Products/pythoff.htm)

[volak]

yeah thanks. im using pythoff now.

[Rubbershield]

Volak what did your roots look like as they started to get that brown scum on them? Was it sort of reddish and slightly slimy? If so then I might have the same problem on my hands. I'm running a DWC system too.