I believe in God

[Mr. Happy]

I believe in God, but not of the god we have made in our own image. Not of a white haired old man who will burn you forever if you mess up.

In fact, God loves Hitler and Osama Bin Laden just as much as the Pope and Jesus. Jesus is my personal Savior and when He said "Believeth in me and ye shall have eternal life," what He meant was that he is a perfect teacher and we need no other yet there have been lots of teachers who point the way back to God and you and I are teachers too if we want to be.

I believe God loves equally and no one person has preference or authority over another person. I also firmly believe that it is us (and our egos) who created hell on earth and we would love to blame God for it.

Although I am a son of a preacher, I was atheistic early on. I had a child and that changed everything. You could say I am also Agnostic in the sense that it takes an complete understanding of one's Self to return to Peace and to Know God who is the highest form of Love. But the Holy Spirit would not wrench our illusions from us lest we think we really want them. We must come to our own conclusions about this.

I also firmly believe that God himself would happily throw all "religions" in the toilet and that He just wants us to love one another. After all, we come from the same Source.

Thanks for listening. God bless you and know that He Will Keep You. MH

[Breukelen advocaat]

Between the politics and religion forums, Osama bin laden sure has a lot of friends on this site.

Edit: Almost forgot, Hitler does also.

[Mr. Happy]

Between the politics and religion forums, Osama bin laden sure has a lot of friends on this site.

Edit: Almost forgot, Hitler does also.

It is very easy to miss the point of what I am trying to illustrate. It is easy to interpret what I said as condoning violence and hatred. I use those names honestly to evoke an uncomfortable idea "Love thy enemy."

My friend, forgive me if I offend you.

God also loves George W. Bush. I don't agree with anything that GWB did during his presidency. Just like I don't agree with anyone who commits violence on other human beings. But all violence comes from our own egotism and as long as we believe in it, violence and hatred will continue.

Forgiveness is the way out of hell. It is the only way. Peace. MH

[VapedG13]

When it come to women God has a funny sense of humor:D

Who else would put a shitter right next to the snack house:wtf::wtf::D

[denialisback]

I believe in God, but not of the god we have made in our own image

dude you had me at the first line thats EXACTLY how i feel... people are too busy hating one another to start noticing there are actually things greater than us, and GOD just happened to be a word that represented it.

:P

Peace,
denial

[bhouncy]

I believe in gravity because if I let go of a ball it falls to the ground.

I believe the sun is coming up tomorrow because it always comes up every morning.

I believe that we are on a rock spinning around a sun because I've seen sci fi movies.

The thing about these beliefs is that I become less sure as I go down the list. The idea of attributing characteristics to something that has no evidence at all of existince is alien to me outwith creative writing.

Useful beliefs could be something like... I believe I'll achieve all my goals and come up with newer even better goals in the future.

[VapedG13]

Tell us what God has done for the world lately.... or over the last 2009 years A.C.

has he ended wars ...no

has he feed the hungry..no

has he cured the sick....no

What exactly has anyone see God Do??? I have never seen God have you?? I have never seen ther Devil either.

The world is mans doing... how it is and how people are treated has nothing to do with God.



During the Cursades the people went to War because they stated God wills it ....Right.... humans believe/do what they want to... thats the bottom line

[Mr. Happy]

I believe in gravity because if I let go of a ball it falls to the ground.
I believe the sun is coming up tomorrow because it always comes up every morning.
I believe that we are on a rock spinning around a sun because I've seen sci fi movies.
The thing about these beliefs is that I become less sure as I go down the list. The idea of attributing characteristics to something that has no evidence at all of existince is alien to me outwith creative writing.
Useful beliefs could be something like... I believe I'll achieve all my goals and come up with newer even better goals in the future.

People believed the world was flat before there was "evidence" to the contrary. What we perceive and judge to be the truth is so fragmented from the whole (which only a God could be aware of including the entire space/time continuum) that every conclusion we draw from it is just another misperception, and another, and another. Faith is not arrogant as opposed to saying I know this, or I know that. I know my own heart and in that lies the power of the Universe.
Hey Denial, thanks for your kind words. MH

[bhouncy]

People believed the world was flat before there was "evidence" to the contrary. What we perceive and judge to be the truth is so fragmented from the whole (which only a God could be aware of including the entire space/time continuum) that every conclusion we draw from it is just another misperception, and another, and another. Faith is not arrogant as opposed to saying I know this, or I know that. I know my own heart and in that lies the power of the Universe.
Hey Denial, thanks for your kind words. MH

How do you know?

Honestly mate I've came up with all kind of bizzare thoughts about what a god could be or do and I would imagine in a lot of ways it's quite natural to fill in what we don't know with what we think it might be. Eventually you reach a point in your life where you either give up reason and follow your feelings or you say to yourself "What do I want?" and get down and do it.

[Mr. Happy]

Tell us what God has done for the world lately.... or over the last 2009 years A.C.
has he ended wars ...no
has he feed the hungry..no
has he cured the sick....no
What exactly has anyone see God Do??? I have never seen God have you?? I have never seen ther Devil either.
The world is mans doing... how it is and how people are treated has nothing to do with God.
During the Cursades the people went to War because they stated God wills it ....Right.... humans believe/do what they want to... thats the bottom line

Thank you VapedG13 -
...consider, just for a moment or two, that we are doing all these things to ourselves. How? Through illusions and the idea we could ever be separated from God. If we identify with the body... when we lose we will suffer and blame a cruel god.

Many people have started wars and continue to use God as justifications for killing. Does that necessarily imply God's stamp of approval on it?

The intense love in my heart is my personal "proof of God." If God is everything loving and real. The rest is false illusions that mean nothing. One can have faith in death. Can you "prove" death exists? You show me mutilated bodies. That is no proof of anything. Thanks, peace MH.

[Mr. Happy]

How do you know?
Honestly mate I've came up with all kind of bizzare thoughts about what a god could be or do and I would imagine in a lot of ways it's quite natural to fill in what we don't know with what we think it might be. Eventually you reach a point in your life where you either give up reason and follow your feelings or you say to yourself "What do I want?" and get down and do it.

Is it possible that space and time "exist" in order to "know God?" In this sense the searching for "what do I want?" and "getting down to it" is precisely the idea. Do I want illusions? Or do I want Truth? Truth has to be eternal to call it truth IMO.

Thank you bhouncy. MH

[Blazed Deafy]

MH--- I am glad that you believe in God. So do I. The hardest part of process was letting go my beliefs and knowledge of this World/Universe/Dimension whatever y'all call it. It aint easy but when i did, everything seems so simple and content. The funny thing is some dude i think its VapedG13 mentioned about God not stopping the suffering and pain going on the Earth. What if it's human's definition of suffering, not God's. We created suffering and fear all that shit. I simply let it go and reap on what i sow. I know its not easy to live on Earth but life is a trip that's for sure. Bless y'all and try your best to forgive people.

[5thHorseMan]

People are violent and competitive because Earth ecosystem encourages violence and competition, God and it's nonexistence has nothing to do with it.

There are fundamental and immutable forces at work in the universe, gravity, electromagnetism, and nuclear energy. From the interactions of these primary forces and matter, we arrive at the universe as it exists, continously recycling it's own constituent matter and energy, endlessly. This system however possesses no consciousness, no sense of morality and ethics, and no emotions. In short the concept of God is pure fiction, because it places consciousness, ethics and emotion, though perhaps very alien forms of these things upon what is in effect just a massive organic deterministic machine, which does not possess such things, and has no need of them.

Talk about love all you want, it's just chemicals in your brain, altering your subjective interpretation of reality as it is.

[Coelho]

Between the politics and religion forums, Osama bin laden sure has a lot of friends on this site.

Well... if Bin Laden were actually an enemy of the Evil Empire (aka USA), i wouldnt say im his friend, but his greatest fan.
But, unfortunately, i think he is an ally (or even a muppet) of this same evil empire, who does (or maybe just talks) things to their benefit, to allow them to meddle with every country they wish under the (obviously false) pretenses of "fighting the terrorism".


And i also believe in God... not the usual definition of God "that man sitting there up in the sky", but the God who is the Source of consciousness... the One who created what we call space and time and energy and whatever is contained whithin it... i would say that we and the universe are like "thoughts into Gods mind"... so our (and the universes) very existence depends on Him... in a completly fundamental level.
Unfortunately, is very hard (if not impossible) for a fish to notice the water it is immersed into...

EDIT: 2525th post! A nice number... for a nice thread.

[Breukelen advocaat]

Well... if Bin Laden were actually an enemy of the Evil Empire (aka USA), i wouldnt say im his friend, but his greatest fan.
But, unfortunately, i think he is an ally (or even a muppet) of this same evil empire, who does (or maybe just talks) things to their benefit, to allow them to meddle with every country they wish under the (obviously false) pretenses of "fighting the terrorism".
.
Based on your previous postings, these statements are no surprise.

Let me get this straight: You believe that bin laden is part of a large U.S. government conspiracy, but if he is not, then you are his greatest fan.

That's really fucked up.

[5thHorseMan]

Dude beat to it, but I ain't changn it.

so your the biggest fan of someone who one kills people for purely idealogical reasons, and two is either consiously or unintentionally aiding an evil empire. Wouldn't that make you a fan of the evil empire as well.

think about it, even if bin laden is actually an enemy of the "evil empire", he's still killed large numbers of innocent people, supported and was in turn supported by an oppressive and violent religious regime.

wouldn't it make more sense to take no side in the mindless and pointlessly violent bickering.

The enemy of my enemy is the enemy of my enemy.

[Breukelen advocaat]

It is very easy to miss the point of what I am trying to illustrate. It is easy to interpret what I said as condoning violence and hatred. I use those names honestly to evoke an uncomfortable idea "Love thy enemy."
Why should I love my enemy, if they're out to get me? Nobody in their right mind thinks like this, no matter what they claim.

My friend, forgive me if I offend you.
I was not offended, just surprised.

God also loves George W. Bush. I don't agree with anything that GWB did during his presidency. Just like I don't agree with anyone who commits violence on other human beings. But all violence comes from our own egotism and as long as we believe in it, violence and hatred will continue.
You honestly belive that GWB did nothing during his presidency that you agree with? I'm no fan either, but he certainly got a few things right, even according to the standards of his harshest critics.

Forgiveness is the way out of hell. It is the only way. Peace. MH
There is no hell - this idea a gigantic hoax to get people to follow corrupt leaders and beliefs. The only hell is the one man has created on earth due, in a large part, to thousands of years of not having the correct, natural psychoactivesubstances to set their brains straight.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has ever come back from the dead to describe what, if anything, happens when the body expires. Any claim to the contrary is false.

[5thHorseMan]

psychoactives are necessary for healthy brain. Albert Hoffman himself said that psychoactives can be dangerous in certain cases.

[JaySin]

Wonderful thread. I'm a firm believer in loving everyone and treating them as though you would want to be treated. One saying that I like to go by is this...

Hatred is for the ignorant and revenge for the adolescent.

[Mr. Happy]

MH--- I am glad that you believe in God. So do I. The hardest part of process was letting go my beliefs and knowledge of this World/Universe/Dimension whatever y'all call it. It aint easy but when i did, everything seems so simple and content. The funny thing is some dude i think its VapedG13 mentioned about God not stopping the suffering and pain going on the Earth. What if it's human's definition of suffering, not God's. We created suffering and fear all that shit. I simply let it go and reap on what i sow. I know its not easy to live on Earth but life is a trip that's for sure. Bless y'all and try your best to forgive people.

Thanks Blazed Deafy,
I think suffering is disillusionment. If we strongly identify with illusions and don't see them for what they are, we are bound to get burned.

[Mr. Happy]

There is no hell - this idea a gigantic hoax to get people to follow corrupt leaders and beliefs. The only hell is the one man has created on earth due, in a large part, to thousands of years of not having the correct, natural psychoactivesubstances to set their brains straight.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY, has ever come back from the dead to describe what, if anything, happens when the body expires. Any claim to the contrary is false.

Breukelen - Nobody is out to get you except yourself, or your ego self that perceives threats everywhere he turns. Yes, GWB did do somethings that were positive and helpful. I was talking actually about my own egotism and how I perceived him. Thanks, MH

[Mr. Happy]

Well... if Bin Laden were actually an enemy of the Evil Empire (aka USA), i wouldnt say im his friend, but his greatest fan.
But, unfortunately, i think he is an ally (or even a muppet) of this same evil empire, who does (or maybe just talks) things to their benefit, to allow them to meddle with every country they wish under the (obviously false) pretenses of "fighting the terrorism".


And i also believe in God... not the usual definition of God "that man sitting there up in the sky", but the God who is the Source of consciousness... the One who created what we call space and time and energy and whatever is contained whithin it... i would say that we and the universe are like "thoughts into Gods mind"... so our (and the universes) very existence depends on Him... in a completly fundamental level.
Unfortunately, is very hard (if not impossible) for a fish to notice the water it is immersed into...

EDIT: 2525th post! A nice number... for a nice thread.

Coelho - people who believe in enemy's are allys in fear. GWB, Bin Laden... Its all bullshit. The ego loves fear and is based on a fearful mindset. This has to change in order for peace to be established. Forgiveness, complete forgiveness is the only way to perfect peace. Thank you. MH

[Breukelen advocaat]

Breukelen - Nobody is out to get you except yourself, or your ego self that perceives threats everywhere he turns. Yes, GWB did do somethings that were positive and helpful. I was talking actually about my own egotism and how I perceived him. Thanks, MH
You have not addressed the question of faith being an escape from reality. Faith is a conditioning of the mind to accept what it is told, whether there is evidence to support those beliefs or not. Faith is very perilous, and not in accordance with rational thinking.

You want to "forgive" Bin Laden. He and his organization, Al Qaeda, must be exterminated. It's the only solution to the threat that people like this pose.

[FourTwenty4Life]

I think everyone reading this thread should watch this video...

YouTube - George Carlin - Religion is bullshit. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o)

To be fair, here is a link that sides with the opposing view...
Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife (http://www.near-death.com/)

The Carlin one is entertaining AND raises a lot of questions. I never thought about religion the same after watching this the first time. I personally belive in "something" or some kind of higher power. I find it hard to believe that mankind just poof appeared on earth out of the blue. I'm still on the fence about this issue and don't quite know what to believe. I can't count the number of times this subject has come up in stoned conversations among me and my friends. Continue the discussion...

:hippy:

[Mr. Happy]

You have not addressed the question of faith being an escape from reality. Faith is a conditioning of the mind to accept what it is told, whether there is evidence to support those beliefs or not. Faith is very perilous, and not in accordance with rational thinking.

You want to "forgive" Bin Laden. He and his organization, Al Qaeda, must be exterminated. It's the only solution to the threat that people like this pose.

I know this can be a touchy subject and I really appreciate your intelligent discourse on it, even if you don't agree with me. The matter of faith: I am pretty sure you and I have "faith" in one thing or another. Based on our experience we have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow... We don't know the sun will rise, but we expect it will based on our experience. The faith in "God" is harder because we lack direct experience of Him/Her according to our expectations. We want to conceptualize God according to our desires. We create an image of Him/Her. If you want, substitute the "Truth" for "God," this will help the discussion. I have faith in Truth. I can't define it, but I know Truth is true and that you and I are part of it. The peril isn't faith, its expectations. Brother, take a deep breath (or toke) and know that you do not walk alone, despite the horrors of this world. Expectations are relics from the past. The past is the problem b/c we chain ourselves to it and have "faith" in it to establish our future. It doesn't exist! Thanks, MH:)

[Mr. Happy]

I think everyone reading this thread should watch this video...

YouTube - George Carlin - Religion is bullshit. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o)

To be fair, here is a link that sides with the opposing view...
Near-Death Experiences and the Afterlife (http://www.near-death.com/)

The Carlin one is entertaining AND raises a lot of questions. I never thought about religion the same after watching this the first time. I personally belive in "something" or some kind of higher power. I find it hard to believe that mankind just poof appeared on earth out of the blue. I'm still on the fence about this issue and don't quite know what to believe. I can't count the number of times this subject has come up in stoned conversations among me and my friends. Continue the discussion...

:hippy:

I love George Carlin RIP. He did a lot of good and was funny as hell. He said a lot of things that resonated with me. I watched the link above again and what he is talking about is organized religion, which is bullshit for the most part. I think God himself is an even bigger fan. George was anti-establishment, stood up for the underclass and challenged our illusions about this world. God Bless him and you. Thanks, MH:)

[Breukelen advocaat]

I know this can be a touchy subject and I really appreciate your intelligent discourse on it, even if you don't agree with me. The matter of faith: I am pretty sure you and I have "faith" in one thing or another. Based on our experience we have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow... We don't know the sun will rise, but we expect it will based on our experience. The faith in "God" is harder because we lack direct experience of Him/Her according to our expectations. We want to conceptualize God according to our desires. We create an image of Him/Her. If you want, substitute the "Truth" for "God," this will help the discussion. I have faith in Truth. I can't define it, but I know Truth is true and that you and I are part of it. The peril isn't faith, its expectations. Brother, take a deep breath (or toke) and know that you do not walk alone, despite the horrors of this world. Expectations are relics from the past. The past is the problem b/c we chain ourselves to it and have "faith" in it to establish our future. It doesn't exist! Thanks, MH:).
We all know (or at least I THINK we know) that religious faith is a different concept from expectation based on experience. Fact is, nobody has come back from the dead to confirm that any of the claims of religion are true. There is absolutely no evidence that a supreme being exists - it's based on religious faith. I believe that it's genetic - you either believe in fairy tales, or you don't. Since so many nonbelievers have been wiped out by the believers, the resulting gene pool has put Atheists in the minority.


I love George Carlin RIP. He did a lot of good and was funny as hell. He said a lot of things that resonated with me. I watched the link above again and what he is talking about is organized religion, which is bullshit for the most part. I think God himself is an even bigger fan. George was anti-establishment, stood up for the underclass and challenged our illusions about this world. God Bless him and you. Thanks, MH:)

As a comedian George Carlin wasn't funny, IMHO, but he was not a believer in religion. I do not think he would have cared for anyone saying, "God bless", regarding him. Besides, he's dead and even if invoking this phrase was capable of doing something, it's too late.

Stories of gods and devils are like fairy tales for children, and in this regard my childhood ended a long time ago.

[Mr. Happy]

.
We all know (or at least I THINK we know) that religious faith is a different concept from expectation based on experience. Fact is, nobody has come back from the dead to confirm that any of the claims of religion are true. There is absolutely no evidence that a supreme being exists - it's based on religious faith. I believe that it's genetic - you either believe in fairy tales, or you don't. Since so many nonbelievers have been wiped out by the believers, the resulting gene pool has put Atheists in the minority.

And what is genetics, do you think you know? I'm interested in your interpretation and please don't reply with a dictionary definition. I can read that for myself. I'm not anti evolution. God is love, God is the source of life and the only purpose./


As a comedian George Carlin wasn't funny, IMHO, but he was not a believer in religion. I do not think he would have cared for anyone saying, "God bless", regarding him. Besides, he's dead and even if invoking this phrase was capable of doing something, it's too late.

I can bless whom I want to. Thats not up to George Carlin, or you.

Stories of gods and devils are like fairy tales for children, and in this regard my childhood ended a long time ago.

The stories you call "fairy tales" are metaphors not to be taken literally. Seek within, this world will only disappoint you. I don't say that just to be right, just my experience. Thanks, MH.

[Breukelen advocaat]

I think that religious belief is mental illness, and in most cases it's inherited. It can skip generations, ie a child and his parents may or may not have the same views on the subject. The degree of religion-based mental illness depends on how delusional the individual is, their addiction to prayer and ritual, self-destructive behaviors, etc.

Why didn't Jesus just come out and say what he meant, rather than confusing his followers with metaphors and parables that were open to all kinds of interpretation, which has resulted in all manner of horrible events? It is apparent that the whole story is fraudulent and that there never was, and never will be, a god.

[Mr. Happy]

I believe that religious belief is mental illness, and in most cases it's inherited. It can skip generations, ie a child and his parents may or may not have the same views on the subject. The degree of religion-based illness depends on how delusional the individual is, their addiction to prayer and ritual, self-destructive behaviors, etc.

Mental illness lies not with just an individual, its the context that the individual is in that makes him ill or not. The ego can infiltrate any organization and the Church is no exception. But do your really think that if Jesus never came, we wouldn't have wars, rape, starvation? He came to point the way out. God would not usurp our free will which he gave to us. The "devil" is the metaphor for the ego (self concern based on fear). This lies in everyone and there is no "devil" outside of one's self. The ego has its own interpretation of love, peace and happiness that is counter to God's will. It loves separation, guilt, fear as the driving motivator. Whereas our Holy Father (the sane context) knows only unconditional love and He does not respond to illusions knowing and being Truth. To respond would validate the illusion.

Why didn't Jesus just come out and say what he meant, rather than confusing his followers with metaphors and parables that were open to all kinds of interpretation, which has resulted in all manner of horrible events. It is more apparent that the whole story is fraudulent and that there never was, and never will be, a god.

We are talking 2000 years ago. How would you talk to people 2000 years ago and explain genetics or dark matter to tribal elders? Metaphors might help. Any ways, thanks for your feed back dude. I hear you and respect your opinion. Over and Out.

[Mr. Happy]

By the way, if your looking for a more contemporary work of Jesus, try "A Course in Miracles." This book explains a lot of the misconceptions and is applicable to today's world. It speaks plainly and is consistent with the True fundamental teachings of love found in the Bible. Lots of Love. MH

[5thHorseMan]

In answer to the whole bit about explaining science to people 2000 years ago.

I would demonstrate the superiority of my technology, and then begin indoctrinating their children in the new order. Replacing their primitive superstitions and other nonsense with, with empirical philosophy.

[Breukelen advocaat]

By the way, if your looking for a more contemporary work of Jesus, try "A Course in Miracles." This book explains a lot of the misconceptions and is applicable to today's world. It speaks plainly and is consistent with the True fundamental teachings of love found in the Bible. Lots of Love. MH
How could the ravings of a schizophrenic be applicable to today's world? The following is how the author of this book purportedly came up with it:


In 1965, Helen Schucman, an associate professor of medical psychology appointed to the faculty of the College of Physicians and Surgeons of the Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center, experienced a series of particularly vivid dreams. Soon thereafter,Schucman dreamt that Jesus spoke to her; she began to hear a "Voice"which she identified as that of Jesus which would speak to her whenever she was prepared to listen. Schucman reported that she heard from the Voice the words, "This is a course in miracles. Please take notes." Schucman then began to write down what she described as a form of "rapid inner dictation."
A Course in Miracles - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Course_in_Miracles)


Crazy, man, crazy.

[Mr. Happy]

How could the ravings of a schizophrenic be applicable to today's world? The following is how the author of this book purportedly came up with it:


Crazy, man, crazy.

Again, you pretend to know what schizophrenia is. Read the thing if your so sure you know what your talking about. Until then your just talking out of your assumptions and hasty judgments, attributes I'll bet you don't appreciate in others. Don't judge someone just because they had a different experience than you. Read, study, then come back and tell me whats crazy and what isn't.

[Breukelen advocaat]

I had this thread pegged as being the result of fraud, con jobs, and mental illness before this book was mentioned. Here's a critical look at the book in question by a person who thinks rationally:

A Course in Miracles or in Brainwashing?
By: Ali Sina

A Course in Miracles [ACIM] is a religious sect created by research psychologist Helen Schucman who claimed Jesus dictated A Course in Miracles ACIM to her. The essence ACIM is allegedly love and forgiveness.

For some unexplained reason Jesus did not appear in person to give his message of love to everyone or at least to a group of people so everyone is confirmed that we are not dealing with an impostor but chose to dictate his Course in Miracles to just one individual, Helen Schucman who compiled ACIM and made it available to mankind, leaving all of us in doubt of her credibility, honesty and truthfulness -- a terrible mistake on the part of Jesus, that can only lead to confusion.

This article is a study of "A Course in Miracles" and its evaluation in the light of reason. Here is what Hellen Schucman the founder of the A Course in Miracles wrote:

Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God.
(T-Intro 2:1,2,3,4) [1]

Let us test the claim of Schucman and ACIM by the litmus of reason. If it is real then nothing can threaten it.

Critical thinking


Humans are born free. The greatest freedom we have is the freedom of thought. Followers cannot be freethinkers. Only sheep need follow. Rational humans are supposed to think and make their choices independently. The choices that we make must be based on logics. We are free to believe in anything we want, but to be rational we have to be able to prove our beliefs. As humans we have to be rational thinkers because the antithesis to rational thinking is irrational thinking.

Beliefs are either true or they are false. True beliefs can be defended with logics and as Schucman said nothing can threaten them. False beliefs cannot be defended logically. People who love the truth are not afraid of scrutiny of their beliefs. They care more about the truth and if they find what they believe is false they will abandon it. People with false beliefs are afraid to talk because they cannot defend them logically and hence avoid discussions. They are filled with fear and insecurity.

One definition of critical thinking is as follow:
"Thinking critically" reflecting on the assumptions underlying our and others' ideas and actions, and contemplating alternative ways of thinking and living is one of the important ways in which we become adults.

When we think critically, we come to our judgments, choices and decisions for ourselves, instead of letting others do this on our own behalf. We refuse to relinquish the responsibility for making the choices that determine our individual and collective futures to those who presume to know what is in our best interests. We become actively engaged in creating our personal and social worlds. [2 (http://www.ircc.edu/learnres/libsrv/libresrc/critical/CRITICAL_THINKING.htm)]

Another definition is:

Just what do we do when we're thinking critically? To think critically is to think clearly, accurately and fairly while evaluating the reasons for accepting some belief or taking some action. The goal of thinking critically is simple: to guarantee, as far as possible, that one's beliefs and actions are justifiable and can withstand the test of rational analysis. To achieve this goal one must rigorously scrutinize one's own beliefs and actions as well as the beliefs and actions of others. [3 (http://skepdic.com/ch1samp.html)]

Let us evaluate and test with reason the claims of Hellen Schucman to see whether her claims about A Course in Miracles are true.

Feel Good Factor:
Before going into that let us talk about the "feel good factor." The feel good factor is subjective and it must not be taken as a valid argument in defense of any belief. People who follow any cult or religion do so because it makes them feel good. They think they have found the truth and they are very happy with their findings. But of course some of those beliefs are very dangerous. The followers of the Heaven?s Gate cult committed mass suicide because they thought an extraterrestrial ship hiding in the tail of the comet Hailey is going to take them to Heaven. They murdered themselves happily. The followers of Aum sect poisoned people in the subways of Tokyo believing that this will liberate their victims from the painful cycle of birth and death and take them to their nirvana. They committed murder of innocent people happily and with clear conscience. The same is true in the case of the terrorists of the September 11. So the feel good factor must be discarded at once because it is extremely misleading. The fact that a belief makes you feel good is no proof that it is true. That feel good factor is subjective and could be false.

How It All Started.

Now, let us take a quick look at the genesis of A Course in Miracles. Hellen Schucman was a research psychologist, an atheist and ethnically a Jew. She claimed receiving revelations from Jesus in the form of dictations. She wrote:

"Although I had grown more accustomed to the unexpected by that time, I was still very surprised when I wrote, "This is a course in miracles." That was my introduction to the Voice. It made no sound, but seemed to be giving me a kind of rapid, inner dictation which I took down in a shorthand notebook." [4 (http://a-course-in-miracles.cc/)]

Did she give any proof for that claim?? Absolutely none. She expects people to believe in her claim and take her for her words. How could we know that she told the truth?

Did she really hear voices? If so then could it be that she was schizophrenic? Schizophrenics hear voices in their heads and those voices are real to them. They also are obsessed with religion and God.

Or perhaps all that started as an experiment. Think about it! Schucman was a research psychologist; she was into experiments on minds, she did not believe in God, therefore she did not have any qualms or fear of God for misleading people and lying about Him and she decided to test the gullibility of human beings. She invents a religion using Christian terminology to target the Christians, even though she did not believe in Christianity. Why Christians only? Aren?t the rest of people children of God too?

The Jewish Influence:

As I said Hellen Schucman was a Jew. Not surprisingly the religion that she invented reflects the Jewish concepts of Christianity. In A Course in Miracles Christ is not the Son of God but one of his many sons.

Schucman denied the exclusive station that the Christians attribute to Jesus and claimed that he was an enlightened person and that all humans as sons of God who can reach the station of Christhood if they evolve or "mutate" spiritually. This concept of course is not Christian but Buddhist.

George P. Walmsley, Jr. in the Miracles Study - An Introduction writes:

The time was the fall of 1965; the place was New York City, and these words infiltrated the mind of a hard-nosed, Ph.D, research psychologist by the name of Helen Schucman. She would become the scribe of, "The Course", learning that the identity of the voice she was hearing was none-other than, Jesus, yet quite different from the one Christianity would exalt to the status of, "The Only Begotten Son of God." This time, Jesus would identify himself as our elder brother - identifying us all as Christ, and part of the same Sonship to which he belongs. It is this Jesus that is the author of, A Course in Miracles - the same Jesus Helen had a love/hate relationship with for a good part of her life. [5 (http://www.alphaxomega.com/Miracles/ACIMINTR.htm)]

In Chapter 3 of A Course in Miracles Schucman denied also the crucifixion. That is strange since the crucifixion is expressly stated in all the four books of the evangels. So why would Schucman deny it? The answer again is that she was a Jew. Jews deny the crucifixion. They never accepted the responsibility. Schucman grew up being influenced by Jewish propaganda. Even though later she became an atheist, Judaism was the foundation of her education. Therefore it was natural for her to implement her own beliefs into her self-made religion than accept what is written in the New Testament. A Course in Miracles states:

T-3.I.1. A further point must be perfectly clear before any residual fear still associated with miracles can disappear. 2 The crucifixion did not establish the Atonement; the resurrection did. 3 Many sincere Christians have misunderstood this. 4 No one who is free of the belief in scarcity could possibly make this mistake. 5 If the crucifixion is seen from an upside-down point of view, it does appear as if God permitted and evenencouraged one of His Sons to suffer because he was good. 6 This particularly unfortunate interpretation, which arose out of projection, has led many people to be bitterly afraid of God. 7 Such anti-religious concepts enter into many religions. 8 Yet the real Christian should pause and ask, "How could this be?" 9 Is it likely that God Himself would be capable of the kind of thinking which His Own words have clearly stated is unworthy of His Son? [6 (http://www.unitedbeings.com/acim/Chapter%203.htm)]

Making Room For Non Christians

Most people are gullible. Some started believing in her.

As a matter of fact it makes no difference what you preach. There are always people who are credulous enough to believe in you. What started as an experiment, (assuming it was not schizophrenia) eventually took the shape of a religion when followers flocked in. At this point Schucman had the choice to come clean and say it was just a hoax folk, or continue. What would have happened if she had told the truth? She would have angered many people who had fallen for her lies. So she decided to continue and stir her foolhardy followers to what she thought would be the best. We should not overlook the ego factor either. As a human she must also have ravished in her newfound popularity and respect that she received from her followers. Power is ecstasy.

The experiment worked. It always works. Bertrand Russell in "Marriage and Morals" observes:
"The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible."

Russell had it right. The majority of humanity is just silly. And silly people are easy to fleece. Now that she had the Christians hooked, she decided to accommodate others and make room for non-Christians as well.

One of the most prominent figures in the Course is the ex singer Marianne Williamson. She authored a book called A Return To Love. In the page 41 of that book she wrote: "A Course In Miracles does not push Jesus.

Although the books come from him, it is made very clear that you can be an advanced student of the Course and not relate personally to him at all."

Now that is bizarre! How can one believe in a teaching while rejecting the teacher?s authority? This can only be interpreted as intellectual dishonesty and the desire to promote A Course in Miracles at any cost.

The Doctrine of Illusion:

A Course in Miracles sums up:
"There is no life outside of Heaven. Where God created life, there life must be. In any state apart from Heaven life is illusion. At best it seems like life; at worst, like death. (T-23.II.19:all) [7 (http://www.pyramus.com/acim/WcompanionL8.htm)]

In other words what you and I experience here is noting but illusion. Living and dying, are just good and bad dreams.

Among other absurd teachings of the Course we learn that "Real life is only Mind, but the body is a lifeless illusion and God did not make the body"

"The body neither lives nor dies, because it cannot contain you who are life." God did not make the body, because it is destructible, and therefore not of the Kingdom. (T-6.V.A.1:all) & (T-6.V.A.2:1) [8 (http://www.pyramus.com/acim/WcompanionL8.htm)]

So who made the body?

Even if we believe in this absurdity, there is nothing new in that. This is the Berkley's idealism. According to Berkeley's principal metaphysical position ?nothing, including material objects, exists apart from perception; external objects are ultimately collections of ideas and sensations. [9 (http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/b/berkeley.htm)]

As we see Schucman is preparing a cocktail of already existing ideas. Nothing taught in A Course in Miracles is new and therefore no revelation was needed to tell us humans what we already knew and some of which we already discarded as false.

Further, on the subject of illusion Schucman writes:
"Once an individual has been caught in the world of perception he is caught in a dream. He cannot escape without help, because everything his senses show him merely witnesses to the reality of the dream" (A Course In Miracles: What Is It?, p. 7). [10 (http://www.forthrt.com/~chronicl/archdec9/review.htm)]

The reality compared to a "dream" is a borrowed concept from Daoism. The book of Zhuangzi narrates:
"One day about sunset, Zhuangzi dozed off and dreamed that he turned into a butterfly.
He flapped his wings and sure enough he was a butterfly.
What a joyful feeling as he fluttered about, he completely forgot that he was Zhuangzi.
Soon though, he realized that that proud butterfly was really Zhuangzi who dreamed he was a butterfly, or was it a butterfly who dreamed he was Zhuangzi!
Maybe Zhuangzi was the butterfly, and maybe the butterfly was Zhungzi?" [11 (http://www.chinapage.com/chungtz2.html)]

In this story, the Chinese philosopher is trying to say that the world is an illusion. The concept of the illusory world therefore predated the "revelation" of A Course in Miracles by at least 2500 years in China and even more in India. It was already thought by sages who were not prophets and did not claim to have received any revelations. Did God learn this concept from humans?
The question arises, if the world is just a dream and every thing is just an illusion, what should we do to wake up.

Kenneth Wapnick, one of the key players of A Course in Miracles explains:

"If we now attempt to follow the Holy Spirit's thinking, and we want to prove that the world is not real and that the sin of separation never happened, all that is needed is to prove that sin has no effect.

"If we could prove that the cause had no effect then the cause can no longer exist. If something is not a cause it is not real, because everything that is real must be a cause and thus have an effect. If we remove the effect we are also eliminating the cause.? [12 (http://www.letusreason.org/BookR3.htm)]

The absurdity of these statements are self-evident. Wapnick is not suggesting to remove the sin but to pretend that sin has no effect. So if one is a victim of a crime all he has to do is to pretend that the crime never happened and therefore he cannot be harmed by it.

What if the victim is dead? What if the victim loses a limb, an eye or becomes wheelchair bound? What about the survivors of the dead victim? Should they just pretend that the crime has never happened and their loved one is among them? Could they?

Wapnick continues:

"Now, if the greatest effect of sin in this world is death, demonstrating that death is an illusion simultaneously demonstrates that there is no sin.? [13]

Shucman is dead. Is that our illusion or is it hers? Could we tell a mother who has lost a child, oh don?t cry you are just having an illusion?

Heaven

Schucman makes startling statements such as:
"There is no need for help to enter Heaven for you have never left. But there is need for help beyond yourself as you are circumscribed by false beliefs of your Identity, Which God alone established in reality." (C-5.1:1-3) [14 (http://www.unitedbeings.com/acim/Clarification%20of%20terms.htm)]

According to the above, Man is still in heaven. It is simply the illusion of sin and death that have caused false senses of reality. Therefore all these wars, crimes, calamities, pains and sufferings are figments of our imagination and are not real.

Evil

A Course in Miracles also teaches that evil does not exist. It is an illusion that must be overcome by right thinking.

"Innocence is wisdom because it is unaware of evil, and evil does not exist." [T33/38] [15 (http://www.miracles.org.nz/zing09.htm)]

According to the Course pain and suffering are illusory. They are only in the imagination of the person who is suffering.

"YOU are the dreamer of the world. You, singularly and individually (but not personally as a separate entity, as that "you" is illusory), are dreaming the entire universe of pain and suffering, sickness and death."
[16 (http://www.miracles.org.nz/simple.htm)]

Is that true? If we stop ?dreaming? about terrorism, wars or the natural disasters do they go away? As I understand from this explanation, you are responsible for all the evil things going on in your world because you are dreaming them. So all you have to do is stop dreaming and your world will become a paradise. Looks like according to this doctrine each one of us is the writer and the director of this universe. A universe that exists nowhere but in our own minds. All we have to do is to change our dreams and the world will change accordingly.

The more we read the more we realize A Course in Miracles is a course in stupidity, a course in absurdity, in brainwashing, in fantasies and in self-deceptions. But the stupidity does not end there.

On Sin

A Course in Miracles states:

"4. No one is punished for sins, and the Sons of God are not sinners. 5. Any concept of punishment involves the projection of blame, and reinforces the idea that blame is justified. " [T-6.I.16] [17 (http://www.unitedbeings.com/acim/Chapter%206.htm)]

This is absurd. Sin means transgression of a divine law. Those who transgress are sinners. And if there is a divine justice the sinners and non-sinners cannot be treated both equally. Hitler cannot sit next to Gandhi and enjoy the same privileges or the divine Justice becomes meaningless. If we survive our deaths, as A Course in Miracles states, would it be just if a criminal is not blamed for his crimes? Are we humans not responsible for our actions?

Another disturbing deduction of this philosophy is that since "Sons of God are not sinners" and pain and suffering are only illusions, a rapist is not guilty but his victim is. He is not to be blamed because as the son of God he can't commit sin, but she is guilty for imagining all that pain and suffering. The pain is not caused by the aggressor but is the cause of the separation of the victim from God. It boggles the mind to think that otherwise intelligent people would let themselves be fooled by this much asininity.

A Loving Truth?

A Course in Miracles teaches that there are no absolutes; truth is relative and is determined by one's experience. According to the Cyclopedia In A Course In Miracles, "only what is loving is true."

This is yet another intellectual fallacy. Truth is the state of being factual. It is neither loving nor cruel. Truth is bereft of feelings. 2+2=4. This is a true statement. To be loving or not has no relevance on the outcome of truth. Truth must be factual. If it is not factual it is not true. Love is subjective. It has nothing to do with facts.

One can love anther person believing him to be his father. That belief could be untrue but that love is real. What we are seeing here are vague talks that have no meaning whatsoever. Mixing love and truth together is like adding apples and crocodiles.

The Sources of the Revelation:

Much of what Hellen Schucman claimed to be revelations dictated to her by Jesus are actually taken from Eastern philosophies. "All ways lead to God" is a Hindu concept that is incorporated in the Course. Also Hinduism teaches that the world and all that is in it is Maya, or illusion. Looks like the Jesus that dictated to Schucman had a crash course on Hinduism and plagiarized many of their concepts.

"Hinduism considers the world in which we live as a projection of God and unreal. It is unreal not because it does not exist, but because it is unstable, impermanent, unreliable and illusory." [18 (http://hinduwebsite.com/hinduism/h_maya.htm)]

The Revelation?s Earlier Versions:

Even though Schucman claimed that A Course in Miracles was dictated to her by Jesus, an unedited, earlier version (http://www.jcim.net/overview.htm) of that book has surfaced, with a number of key differences between it and her final version. Some Internet sites have published that version and this has caused some legal fight between the Foundation for A Course In Miracles who claims to have the copyright to Schucman?s writings and the sites who say the words of Jesus are not copyrightable. [19 (http://www.apologeticsindex.org/news/an200219.html%20/%2019)]

The point is who decided to revise and edit the words of Jesus?

Kenneth and Gloria Wapnick, the executive directors of the Foundation For A Course in Miracles [FACIM] of Roscoe, N.Y., which holds the book's copyright, say the early manuscript is nothing but a rough draft. On February 19, 2000, Ken told the Salt Lake Tribune
"A lot of changes had to be made because Helen's hearing was not all that good," he said. "The early material was not polished or well-written and had a number of inconsistencies." [20 (http://www.neirr.org/cimnews.htm)]

But didn?t Helen Schucman say that the voice did not make any sound? In that case her hearing abilities are irrelevant. She heard those "internal dictations" in her head. She could have been deaf for that matter and hear the voice.

Kenneth Wapnick wrote:

"Helen took down her internal dictation in stenographic notebooks, using her own version of shorthand, and dictated these notes to Bill. Helen intentionally omitted some material while dictating to Bill, who typed Helen's dictation." [21 (http://www.miraclestudies.net/HLV.html)]

In her unpublished autobiography Hellen makes a startling statement that she wanted to change the whole manuscript:

"I wanted to change just about everything, but I knew that Bill was right. Any changes I made were always wrong in the long run, and had to be put back." [22 (http://www.jcim.net/Dthompson_faq.htm)]

Bill Thetford was an associate of Hellen Schucman who helped her in the compilation of A Course in Miracles. Weather she actually made the changes or not we don't know. Maybe she did and disclaimed it just to make appear that the script is authentic transcript of what the voice had dictated. However what is revealing is her admission that she wanted to change everything. Why would she want to change everything if the script was not hers but belonged to Jesus? The very fact that she had this itch to revise the early version makes us suspect that the book is entirely hers and just like any other writer she wanted to go back and do some editing. If she believed that those words were from Jesus, would she allow herself the thought to revise them? She could be a psychologist but still she made the same stupid mistakes that others make, which exposed her lies. Under this light I discard the hypothesis that Hellen Schucman was schizophrenic who really heard voices. It appears that she was a plain and simple charlatan who never received any dictations and knew perfectly that she is fooling the gullible.

Brainwashing:

The course uses a standard technique of brainwashing, which is mindless parroting and repetition. The "Workbook for Students" consists of 365 lessons, an exercise for each day of the year. This one-year training program begins the process of changing the student's mind and perception. " (Preface: ix) [23 (http://www.acim.org/about_acim_section/intro_to_acim.html)]

In the introduction to the course it states:

"Some of the ideas the workbook presents you will find hard to believe, and others may seem to be quite startling. This does not matter. You are merely asked to apply the ideas as you are directed to do. You are not asked to judge them at all. You are asked only to use them. It is their use that will give them meaning to you, and will show you that they are true."[24 (http://64.77.6.149/about_acim_section/what_it_is.html)]

It would be foolhardy to deny that as a psychologist Schucman did not know this is the way to brainwash people. Using this method, you do not need to explain anything. People will eventually believe just by doing repetitive constant exercises. This is exactly the process children are indoctrinated by their parents. Children do not question the validity of the beliefs and practices of their parents. They simply emulate them and eventually those beliefs and customs become part of their own belief system. Schucman demands that you relinquish your rational thinking and submit to her like a sheep.

A Course in Miracles continues:

"Remember only this; you need not believe the ideas, you need not accept them, and you need not even welcome them. Some of them you may actively resist. None of this will matter, or decrease their efficacy. But do not allow yourself to make exceptions in applying the ideas the workbook contains, and whatever your reactions to the ideas may be, use them. Nothing more than that is required (Workbook, p. 2)." [25 (http://64.77.6.149/about_acim_section/what_it_is.html)]

These are nothing but established and proven techniques of mind control. It is saddening that otherwise intelligent people allow themselves consciously to be brainwashed.

The Course claims to be the third book of the Bible. However there is nothing new in it. The book is a concoction of Eastern and Judeo-Christian philosophies. Most of the writings are senseless and tautological. It contains vague statements that give the impression of conveying the truth. The book however contains no truth unknown to the average man but it burdens him with a lot of nonsense.

A Course in Miracles is an industry to make money. Some famous personages such as Oprah Winfrey may have possibly accepted this belief and hence it has become popular amongst some TV. Personages. Oprah in one of her shows bought 1000 copies of A Course in Miracles and gave it to her guests. However, Oprah cannot be ranked amongst the intellectuals of the society. I am not sure whether she has a college degree. Oprah is a good show woman, but not an intellectual. It is disappointing that people take movie stars, singers and showmen as their source of guidance and not the philosophers, and thinkers.

A Course in Miracles is a hoax. It teaches no new wisdom unknown to man. It is just an industry to sell books and make money. It is absurd to think God would communicate with humans in this way. Again as Bertrand Russell stated: "It is undesirable to believe a proposition when there is no ground whatsoever for supposing it to be true." And there is absolutely no ground whatsoever to believe in the proposition that Hellen Schucman heard the voice of a man who died 2000 years earlier.

Fr. Benedict J. Groeschel, C.F.R. is a psychologist who was an acquaintance of Hellen Schucman. He gave a eulogy at her funeral. Fr. Groeschel wrote:

"This woman who had written so eloquently that suffering really did not exist spent the last two years of her life in the blackest psychotic depression I have ever witnessed." [26]

Who knows! Maybe that psychotic depression was the result of her awareness of being a hoax and her pang of conscience for defrauding people. Something she could not easily get out of.

A Course In Miracles [ACIM]. The Miracle of Brainwashing (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina31214.htm)

[overgrowthegovt]

My take:

Humans have always had an awareness of something bigger, something ELSE, something transcendent. Virtually all cultures have realized this. What no culture ever could figure out was what the fuck it was. Man likes to label, categorize, put things under the microscope, claim they understand. The meaning of existence and the true awareness thereof is beyond the capacity of anybody, but man hates above all acknowledgement of his own ignorance. Therefore, various cultures turned to their own simplified and accessible explanations, theories that dumbed-down the Divine so the masses can think they comprehend it.

Organized religion is, I believe, the spiritual equivalent of Cliffnotes written for twelve-year-olds...all anyone can understand are the Cliffnotes, which are rudimentarily penned and ignore the real complexities, but of course they think of themselves as Shakespearean scholars.

I think spirituality can only be healthy when there's no theology involved, when we don't try to attach our human labels and presuppositions to something which is FAR beyond the understanding of even the greatest geniuses. We can only hope to have a clue if we recognize and acknowledge that we have no fucking clue, if that makes paradoxical sense. This can only happen when organized religion is recognized as a funnel, a compressing valve that narrows things for human understanding. And since most humans have the ability to understand very, very little of any real importance, this is a problem, indeed.

I don't think God is love--I think he/it is everything. The idea of a perfect, just and all-loving God makes no sense if you take a look around you. No, there's ambivalence, unrest and a bit of a warped sense of humour going on there, I think. Nothing's perfect, so why should the cosmos be? Unless it's perfect in its imperfection. That can sit with me.

[Nightcrewman]

I made a deal with God a long time ago that is, if he stays out of my life I'll stay out of his.
So far the deal seems to be working.

NCM

[Mr. Happy]

Thanks guys for your input.

You know...those who judge a book by its cover, don't read it, then critisize it without reading... they look to others to do their thinking for them because they are afraid their mind is so feeble as to be brainwashed by something they don't quite understand.

I know of another group of people who think this way "Neoconservatives." They live in fear of trying new things. Anywho, all I can do is offer my testimonial that "A Course in Miracles" has changed my life, offered me Peace and given me a sense of purpose.

I believe it was Jesus who worked through a scribe. I have a Masters of Arts in Psychology and have worked with Mental Illness for over 12 years and I have seen it all. Helen Schunaman's experience could have been explained possibly by a very prolonged and consistent manic episode, but highly unlikely and inconsistent with mood disorders which often fluctuate wildly. She was an athiest, highly educated and acclaimed in her profession in psychology. She herself knew about mental illness, as did her colleges. But I started reading it, having my doubts, just like those expressed above. The text and the poetic beauty of it won me over.

Don't be a fear monger, find out for yourself. Use that crispy brain of yours. Thanks, MH

You will always find a critic. I do my own thinking and I am open minded.

[Mr. Happy]

My take:

Humans have always had an awareness of something bigger, something ELSE, something transcendent. Virtually all cultures have realized this. What no culture ever could figure out was what the fuck it was. Man likes to label, categorize, put things under the microscope, claim they understand. The meaning of existence and the true awareness thereof is beyond the capacity of anybody, but man hates above all acknowledgement of his own ignorance. Therefore, various cultures turned to their own simplified and accessible explanations, theories that dumbed-down the Divine so the masses can think they comprehend it.

Organized religion is, I believe, the spiritual equivalent of Cliffnotes written for twelve-year-olds...all anyone can understand are the Cliffnotes, which are rudimentarily penned and ignore the real complexities, but of course they think of themselves as Shakespearean scholars.

I think spirituality can only be healthy when there's no theology involved, when we don't try to attach our human labels and presuppositions to something which is FAR beyond the understanding of even the greatest geniuses. We can only hope to have a clue if we recognize and acknowledge that we have no fucking clue, if that makes paradoxical sense. This can only happen when organized religion is recognized as a funnel, a compressing valve that narrows things for human understanding. And since most humans have the ability to understand very, very little of any real importance, this is a problem, indeed.

I don't think God is love--I think he/it is everything. The idea of a perfect, just and all-loving God makes no sense if you take a look around you. No, there's ambivalence, unrest and a bit of a warped sense of humour going on there, I think. Nothing's perfect, so why should the cosmos be? Unless it's perfect in its imperfection. That can sit with me.

I appreciate your reply and would only say that I looked at this world and said there is no God too. The Course in Miracles states that this is the world of the ego and WE are creating the suffering ourselves. That makes sense to me and is evident in our behaviors toward each other. I don't pretend to understand what God is and he is everything. How could I characterize what is all encompassing, I can't. Truth does not respond to illusions. Thanks. MH

[Dreadscale]

Cool

Whay ever

[Wannous]

people always say if there was a god why is there war,hunger,diseases...ect

but if god made the world perfect...what would happen to heaven?

[overgrowthegovt]

I appreciate your reply and would only say that I looked at this world and said there is no God too. The Course in Miracles states that this is the world of the ego and WE are creating the suffering ourselves. That makes sense to me and is evident in our behaviors toward each other. I don't pretend to understand what God is and he is everything. How could I characterize what is all encompassing, I can't. Truth does not respond to illusions. Thanks. MH

That can sit with me. We fuck everything up but the truth behind it all, the bass line, I suppose, is unalterable. Things are so tragic, I think, because few people see it like we do...they're either nihilistic hardcore pragmatists or people who can't really grasp spirituality so they turn to some dogma or other, a dogma of human likes and dislikes that doesn't in any way really reflect anything lofty.

[Mr. Happy]

In answer to the whole bit about explaining science to people 2000 years ago.

I would demonstrate the superiority of my technology, and then begin indoctrinating their children in the new order. Replacing their primitive superstitions and other nonsense with, with empirical philosophy.

What is so superior about "your technology?" Has technology saved us from ourselves? Do you think it will? Is that what Jesus was interested in? Jesus spoke to what binds us together in God, which is the Source of life. What use does technology have?
If your remember, Jesus was pretty radical for that period and he was anti-establishment as noted in his discussions with the Pharasees. His ideas of God were radically different than held by a lot of people then. I just think there are a lot of assumptions in your argument. Peace, MH

[Mr. Happy]

That can sit with me. We fuck everything up but the truth behind it all, the bass line, I suppose, is unalterable. Things are so tragic, I think, because few people see it like we do...they're either nihilistic hardcore pragmatists or people who can't really grasp spirituality so they turn to some dogma or other, a dogma of human likes and dislikes that doesn't in any way really reflect anything lofty.

Excellent. Couldn't agree more. Peace, MH

[Coelho]

Well... after two pages of intense discussions i think its time to say that every people is absolutely right from its own viewpoint.

Each person percieves the world in a unique and personal matter, and builds a "truth" based upon this personal way of percieving. Even when this "truth" is based or affected by other persons, beliefs, or whatever, still its meaning is unique for each one. Two persons may have the same life experiences, beliefs, etc, but surely their own views of the same "truth" still will be personal, and thus different, even if alike.

So, its ultimately useless to discuss such things. No one can enter someone elses mind and percieve the world as someone elses does, and so each one of us is limited by our own world view and by the beliefs that stems from it.

Discussions may add things to our minds, but the way this new things are shaped into our minds is also personal. I would say that nobody is converted to a new religion, phylosophy, belief or whatever, but that everybody converts itself.

Imagine two spaceships floating free in the space, with a constant speed, far from earth, sun, or whatever reference point. The passengers of the first ship see (and believe) that they are resting and that the other ship is the one moving. The passengers of the second ship see and believe they are resting and that the first ship is the one which is moving. Who is right and who is wrong? Both and none... each one is right in their own referential and wrong in the another ones referential... thats what relativity means... and surely it works for a lot of things besides floating spaceships...

[zihowie]

I didnt take the time to read much past the first page and dont expect anyone else to mine. I just wanted to say I agree with some points. so here it is...

I believe in God. Im not sure his name is God or he is of the Christian faith. In fact, I believe he strongly dislikes most Christians. He may not be in any kind physical form or be in any certain corner of the galaxy, but he or she or they are there. Other than this I find it hard the fathom mine or anyone elses thoughts of morals and idealisms. Right or wrong, black and white there is no grey area in our world of injustice.