The root of problematic drugs

[denialisback]

I've been thinking carefully and long about marijuana and drugs as a whole for about 10 years, no not doing them, apart from mmj but I've come to some pretty bizarre and damning conclusions.

I have noticed how a lot of gangs, criminals and/or underground networks distribute drugs for the sole purpose of money and/or the control that comes with it.

Often the DEA and other enforcement agencies mistakenly identify civilians doing the drugs as offenders, I believe this not to be true, given the absolute poverty a lot of them live in.

In fact if one looks closely we start to see an alarming precident. The ones that are able to make money or obtain control with the money are in fact very wealthy well to do people with money, and thus are able to control criminal gangs easily. Also such people most likely represent the actual source of the drugs or the authoritarian body of that government/state allowing it to be possible, since drugs make lots of money.

So, based on the premise that drugs make so much money why are so many gangs in Americas, el salvador, russia, poland, uk living in such poverty? I've discovered that drugs are in fact not the problem. Money seems to be, or power.

I would even go so far to say that if drugs were free gang control would be non existant and thus the wealthy people capable of importing it and making the most money would have nobody to ship their goods for them.

With those 2 premise, you can actually take it one step further... if money didnt exist there would be no reason for either faction to exist.

One step further than that? If drugs were free (i.e. unsurpressed) and money didnt exist, crime wouldn't exist at all...
(why? what would there be to gain.. or reason to kill other than self gain, but what self gain is the question?)


Someone at government isn't looking at their sociopolitical problems this way, mainly because the focus would currently have to be money anti drugs, which actually seems quite counter productive.

It's a proven and well known fact that the more you supress something the further underground it goes, and the higher its value becomes, the more profitable it is to be in...and the harder it is to track and trace by police and federal officials.

It's also a well known fact that drugs and money only become socially problematic (in the creation of paramilitaries/gangs) in the abscence of money and drugs.

Good examples are remote perserved villages in Indonesia where money has not been introduced, and thus no control or helplessness to be created or felt by its inhabitants..

A great example of the destruction of such areas and even people/tribes can be attributed to the modern banking system itself, and the concept of posession and an economy of wealth instead a wealth of valuable people.

So, without getting too carried away at reinforcing the points there.

Money is the motivator for crime and criminal drug dealing. The feds really should back the fuck off from me when moaning about me using a drug that has just as many dangers and medical values than any synthetic drug created, most especially when its not intellectually difficult to attribute the problem that had to be solved by the "war on drugs" should actually be a war on the government and the people who created money - since thats the only effective and truly reasonable way to remove the drug industry.

Before you dismiss that paragraph, think about this carefully without the US $ currency value and without an exchange rate and the 'trust' to accept currency at an exchange rate, how does one make anything useful from a plant that can obtain anything else useful? Money does all that, it allows the drug industry to operate efficiently even if sometimes traceable. Without the $ value the drugs are worth nothing!!! Instead we'd be back at the ye olde trade merchanting system, and nothings in 'bulk' or scientifically managed anymore. Well, no solution is perfect, removing money certainly isnt a solution... still I want a fucking word with the people who implemented it worldwide.. it's actually created more problems than anything else I can think of known to man before money, which'd be power/control, the usual.

Money must just be the latest fashion for consolidating it and extremely effectively giving closeto limitless power to the wealthy, as a result the gangs who are simply lowlevel dealers don't make wealth, don't have control, it's more about survival. Governments, Politicans, authoritarian figures of influence around the world are in fact the ones that must be benefiting hugely from the drug trade, so much more than gangs (even ones with some cash) something seems obscenely wrong.

[ArgoSG]

Know what also works for stopping the criminal gangs from selling a criminalized substance? Decriminalizing it. See: Alcohol.

The problem is not very complicated. There is no way to even have an -argument- about legalizing cannabis in our society. Ask yourselves why this is the case?

[denialisback]

Know what also works for stopping the criminal gangs from selling a criminalized substance? Decriminalizing it. See: Alcohol.

The problem is not very complicated. There is no way to even have an -argument- about legalizing cannabis in our society. Ask yourselves why this is the case?

mmm... legalisation would work well, but I think the point is hideous amounts of money cant be made legally sub-legally or illegally by gangs... I think alot of the damage is from the destabilising effect when drugs are turned into money (in countries, streets, counties etc)..


Would be good if people made some more smart thoughts about this, it's not just as simple as alcohol vs weed. More that money is the cause of the drug industry being as strong as it is :)

Peace,
denial

[Doobee]

Currency allows for the exchange of goods and services.

Before money, civilization had trade/barter and beads, trinkets, goats and scripts.
Money is the way in which to have what you want and to get rid of what you don't.
Sure beats hauling a truck load of stuff when you only have a compact to drive.
More and more we are moving away from cash money and going to debit cards and electronic banking.
This is happening because the loss in bad checks, theft, crime and such costs us all 100s of millions and millions.

Back in the 1980s I wrote an article for the Albuquerque Journal about having ATM machines in 7-11s, gas stations and most all stores and retail venues.
The editor did not publish my article saying he wanted to save me embarrassment.
The editor insisted no ATMs because who's are they and who gets the fees and all?
So much for an editor's biased lame liberal opinion.

Soon we will not have cash currency and will rely solely on electronic banking for all our trade needs.
Gone will be bad checks and lost/stolen IDs.

The "gangs" will have the need to come up with store fronts perse to take in the money and this will keep them from stashing millions in cash that cannot be banked or spent in the numbers over $10K which is the Federal amount to be reported, etc.
No doubt crime orgs will devise a way in which to bank the drug monies by other means.

Money is not the ''cause''

The love, power, desire and status of money and what money can buy and own, is.

So long as there is human nature to sin in all human beings there will be those who know no limits in what they do to others.

IF cannabis was legalized, then the Mexican drug cartels would lose nearly 70% of their income.
A good start.
But..as the cannabis is being seized at the borders, the wet backs are moving into the National Forest in California and growing to then sell far more easily than smuggling pressed bricks of crap across the boarder.








mmm... legalisation would work well, but I think the point is hideous amounts of money cant be made legally sub-legally or illegally by gangs... I think alot of the damage is from the destabilising effect when drugs are turned into money (in countries, streets, counties etc)..


Would be good if people made some more smart thoughts about this, it's not just as simple as alcohol vs weed. More that money is the cause of the drug industry being as strong as it is :)

Peace,
denial

[denialisback]

Currency allows for the exchange of goods and services.

Before money, civilization had trade/barter and beads, trinkets, goats and scripts.

hey, this is my point! thats what existed before.. trademan, ever tried to sell drugs via trade? no consolidation == no ability of profiteering via consolidation




Money is the way in which to have what you want and to get rid of what you don't.


Absolutely, I'd insist upon this, thats how drug industry capitalisation can be consolidated and untraceable.



Sure beats hauling a truck load of stuff when you only have a compact to drive.

exactly!!!



More and more we are moving away from cash money and going to debit cards and electronic banking.
This is happening because the loss in bad checks, theft, crime and such costs us all 100s of millions and millions.

I have been thinking about this a lot an you are right that will be the way forward.



Back in the 1980s I wrote an article for the Albuquerque Journal about having ATM machines in 7-11s, gas stations and most all stores and retail venues.
The editor did not publish my article saying he wanted to save me embarrassment.
The editor insisted no ATMs because who's are they and who gets the fees and all?
So much for an editor's biased lame liberal opinion.


aww sucky, I hope you didn't give up! You have to ask yourself why he didn't print it, i'm still not sure :)



Soon we will not have cash currency and will rely solely on electronic banking for all our trade needs.
Gone will be bad checks and lost/stolen IDs.


yeah I have been thinking about this a lot, you are right, soon criminals will have an electronic war to wage that will be much harder than weighted cash consolidation..



The "gangs" will have the need to come up with store fronts perse to take in the money and this will keep them from stashing millions in cash that cannot be banked or spent in the numbers over $10K which is the Federal amount to be reported, etc.
No doubt crime orgs will devise a way in which to bank the drug monies by other means.

I somehow can't see money being totally erradicated.



Money is not the ''cause''


Of course it is , and if its not the cause i'd insist that its the only direct way to gang consolidation as I'm sure you'd agree..




The love, power, desire and status of money and what money can buy and own, is.


hmm, I feel like we could get in a tit for tat on definition here.. so i will be careful but essentially consolidation is just that, trading something you have a high surplus of, and exchanging it for an invariably large sum of cash





So long as there is human nature to sin in all human beings there will be those who know no limits in what they do to others.

Maybe creating cash, and its apparent consolidation sub-systems of warfare/gang criminality/death/gun trade was a mistake then...



IF cannabis was legalized, then the Mexican drug cartels would lose nearly 70% of their income.
A good start.

Can't argue that one :)




But..as the cannabis is being seized at the borders, the wet backs are moving into the National Forest in California and growing to then sell far more easily than smuggling pressed bricks of crap across the boarder.

word! lol


Peace,
Denial

[frostymcfailure]

the really rich bankers who control every gov. created a small branch which through the American CIA is a front to successfully unloads barrages *literal TONNES* Of Cocaine & heroin into the USA. They proceed to fine, taxe & prosecute the victims making $ off of ruining their lives along with the lives of many families. Trust me on this one ive seen it 1st hand:wtf: On the + now i can say Monopoly!

~19

[denialisback]

the really rich bankers who control every gov. created a small branch which through the American CIA is a front to successfully unloads barrages *literal TONNES* Of Cocaine & heroin into the USA. They proceed to fine, taxe & prosecute the victims making $ off of ruining their lives along with the lives of many families. Trust me on this one ive seen it 1st hand:wtf: On the + now i can say Monopoly!

~19

I know people who've seen that first hand, they end up disapearing, either by themselves or by someone else, clearly either way not by choice :P careful careful echelon!

Peace,
Denial

[luciddreamer]

That CIA corruption has been published and verified many times. The problem is people are like "well, they sacked everyone their and revamped the whole system and hired new people etc. It's not going to happen in this day and age "
People are so blind :(
Definition of crazy, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[Rusty Trichome]

...If drugs were free (i.e. unsurpressed) and money didnt exist, crime wouldn't exist at all...
(why? what would there be to gain.. or reason to kill other than self gain, but what self gain is the question?)

Know what also works for stopping the criminal gangs from selling a criminalized substance? Decriminalizing it. See: Alcohol.

The problem is not very complicated. There is no way to even have an -argument- about legalizing cannabis in our society. Ask yourselves why this is the case?
I don't agree. (what else is new...lol) Y'all act as if drug addicts are a responsible group of citizens able to maintain and think straight.
But enough people lose the ability to make rational decisions when smacked-back, tripping, tweaking or drunk, to make it a dangerous social experiment.

Ok...let's say drugs are legal. Now let them drive cars, put 'em behind the wheel of school buses, trains and planes...let 'em triage patients in emergency rooms, let 'em work in the gun shops, protect the mall, teach or babysit our children, or do our taxes...

It's not only the violence involved with getting the drugs...it's what happens after ingestion that put's the rest of us at risk.

There are still laws dictating alcohol consumption. Even wandering down the boardwalk while intoxicated can result in an arrest. With age restrictions, workplace restrictions, driving restrictions, alcohol is not nearly as "legal" as y'all make it out to be.

[denialisback]

I don't agree. (what else is new...lol) Y'all act as if drug addicts are a responsible group of citizens able to maintain and think straight.
But enough people lose the ability to make rational decisions when smacked-back, tripping, tweaking or drunk, to make it a dangerous social experiment.



I think that alcohol by far creates dangerous people, particularly in comparison to drugs like psychoactives... people are so out of their mind they really really are a significant danger to themselves if anyone else.

Alcohol seems to make people violent, psychoactives and addictions only make people violent or pariticularly prone to crime because they need the societies foundation of money in order to obtain their drug. Something that really is quite new to society (0.0001% range).. we are not adapting well as a society either. Seems physical addiction causes much pain and suffering needlessly because there is no proper system to A) give those people a way out B) give those people what they think they need. C) often what people think, people do.. not always.. but I particularly refering to value systems like mine and yours, they go out of the window in terms of meaningfulness when addicted to a substance.



Ok...let's say drugs are legal. Now let them drive cars, put 'em behind the wheel of school buses, trains and planes...let 'em triage patients in emergency rooms, let 'em work in the gun shops, protect the mall, teach or babysit our children, or do our taxes...

I see what you are saying... mind altering drugs are exactly that, mind altering. A new set of variables apply. I think what you are trying to say is that drug users are irresponsible, and it would be very dangerous to let them to be members of society. Does this include yourself? :)



It's not only the violence involved with getting the drugs...it's what happens after ingestion that put's the rest of us at risk.





There are still laws dictating alcohol consumption. Even wandering down the boardwalk while intoxicated can result in an arrest. With age restrictions, workplace restrictions, driving restrictions, alcohol is not nearly as "legal" as y'all make it out to be.

I think my point here is if you took away money there would still be
A) Alcoholism
B) Violent Alcoholism
C) Crime as a result of Alcoholism
D) Drug Addict use
E) significantly reduced crime as a result of drug use

This is mainly due to the fact that Alcohol is a particularly toxic drug. Unlike most or many of the psychoactives, Alcohol can cause paranoia, violence, and the breakdown of our supposed "values".

I believe that a lot of disorganised crime, i.e. we are talking about gangs here, although gangs seem organised, in comparison to large operations these guys are fscking porpers :) hell they ARE porpers, look where they live :P

Anyways, point being these guys are so poor they could never afford to smoke drugs in the first place, probably why they started selling them eh?

Now what if they all grown naturally everywhere? I think drug addicts would be content getting high of their clock at some ranch 24/7. I'm pretty fscking sure about that actually.

A happy addict is not only quiet, but has not a worry in the world. heh

Thats mind altering substances for you I guess :D

Peace,
Denial

[MonkeyBone]

Ok...let's say drugs are legal. Now let them drive cars, put 'em behind the wheel of school buses, trains and planes...let 'em triage patients in emergency rooms, let 'em work in the gun shops, protect the mall, teach or babysit our children, or do our taxes...

It's not only the violence involved with getting the drugs...it's what happens after ingestion that put's the rest of us at risk.

There are still laws dictating alcohol consumption. Even wandering down the boardwalk while intoxicated can result in an arrest. With age restrictions, workplace restrictions, driving restrictions, alcohol is not nearly as "legal" as y'all make it out to be.


It will be the same thing with drugs! You drink alcohol at home, with friends, in bars, at shows, you see my point. You don't drink and drive, you don't go at work drunk, or at school. You see my point #2. It will be the same thing with drugs! Have you tried smoking Salvia while driving? YOU JUST CAN'T! And it's legal...

[denialisback]

It will be the same thing with drugs! You drink alcohol at home, with friends, in bars, at shows, you see my point. You don't drink and drive, you don't go at work drunk, or at school. You see my point #2. It will be the same thing with drugs! Have you tried smoking Salvia while driving? YOU JUST CAN'T! And it's legal...

holy shit, its legal to do salvia and drive?!?!?! oh my oh my. Clearly there is a problem with the system, not the human beings running it. oh, oh wait.. ;)


word up monkey, rusty both good points tbh ;D

Peace,
denial

[Rusty Trichome]

I see what you are saying... mind altering drugs are exactly that, mind altering.
Geee...no shit...?
You talk as if casual use is all that happens with decrimninalization or legalization. I'm saying it's a foolish idea to legalize 'em.


A new set of variables apply. I think what you are trying to say is that drug users are irresponsible, and it would be very dangerous to let them to be members of society.
Drug addicts, as a general rule...Irresponsible, untrustworthy, and very poor at making rational decisions. I don't think we need to remove them from society, but definatelly restrict their behaviors while in society.
Know what happens to your mind when you've been up for 10 days? Do you know the rage, when your friend steals the last line from your bindle? Have you ever seen a friend nod-off mid-sentance while driving you to the grocery store? Have you ever had your kids babysitter show up ready to paint the garage, fix the microwave, and offer to re-organize your junk closet? Have you ever had your designated driver at the party look up from the comode he's throwing-up into...and telling you he's still ok to drive...?
These are the folks whose actions you defend? Pitiful.


Does this include yourself? :)
No, as I'm not a doped-up fuckhead looking to avoid live on life's terms, while putting other's lives and freedoms at risk. I have a reality-based disdain for those that choose to put my family at risk, just to have the personal freedom to have a bad trip while I'm driving my kids home from school. Or to shoot my wife while she's taking out the trash because my neighbor thinks she's a shadow-monster, bent on stealing their stash.
Liars, thieves and fucked-up in the head, so no...I don't hold myself in the same class as the lowlife addicts in society. I respect no active addict. Don't like it...? Tough shit. Know what happens when you sober-up an addict car thief...? You have a sober car thief.


I think my point here is if you took away money there would still be
A) Alcoholism
B) Violent Alcoholism
C) Crime as a result of Alcoholism
D) Drug Addict use
E) significantly reduced crime as a result of drug use
Legalize drugs, there would be:
A) Systemic drug addiction.
B) Violent drug addiction.
C) Violent crime as a mechanism to get more money for drugs.
D) Increase in home violence and drug-induced psychosis.
E) Significant increase in prisons being built to accomodate those that obviously shouldn't be on the streets.


This is mainly due to the fact that Alcohol is a particularly toxic drug. Unlike most or many of the psychoactives, Alcohol can cause paranoia, violence, and the breakdown of our supposed "values". Are you stoned, or just stupid? That is one of the most blindly immature things I've ever read in here. Obviously you've never been to an AA or NA meeting. You want a real grip on what drugs do to ones family, friend, employees and employers...? Go to a Narcanon or Al-Anon meeting. Also..tell me more about values.

Do you think legalizing it would make it easier for the poor and downtrodden to acquire the drugs? Will they get off of welfare, get a job, just to partake? No. They'll continue to rob, steal and kill, just like now.


A happy addict is not only quiet, but has not a worry in the world. heh

I guess...if you can find a happy addict, there is a possibility he'll be quiet. Kinda hard to have a care in the world, when you're doing drugs in back-alleys to remove those cares.

[TyPR124]

Drug addicts, as a general rule...Irresponsible, untrustworthy, and very poor at making rational decisions. I don't think we need to remove them from society, but definatelly restrict their behaviors while in society.

Blacks, as a general rule... Killers, rapists... hey wait a minute, isn't this called stereotyping?


A) Systemic drug addiction.
B) Violent drug addiction.
C) Violent crime as a mechanism to get more money for drugs.
D) Increase in home violence and drug-induced psychosis.
E) Significant increase in prisons being built to accomodate those that obviously shouldn't be on the streets.

These are all based on the assumption that with drug legalization comes more addicts. As far as I know, there has been research to both support and disprove this, which pretty much makes either side an assumption. Although I don't think the government has the right to say we can't use any drugs, I definately don't support legalization of addictive drugs simply because it's already illegal. My theory on the whole thing is that if all drugs were legalized, the first generation (and those that haven't seen the effects firsthand) would fuck up big time. After that, people would see what happens and the next generation wouldn't do as much (pretty much sums up the reason I don't drink).

[Rusty Trichome]

Blacks, as a general rule... Killers, rapists... hey wait a minute, isn't this called stereotyping?
No, but what you are implying is strreotypical childish rhetoric, comparing apples and oranges. You are insulting, at best. (and foolishly misled)


My theory on the whole thing is that if all drugs were legalized, the first generation (and those that haven't seen the effects firsthand) would fuck up big time. After that, people would see what happens and the next generation wouldn't do as much (pretty much sums up the reason I don't drink).
Would be a nice theory, were you not full of shit.
What wisdom have you gained from your parents drug/alcohol insight? What or whom has taught you there is such a thing as having a working relationship with drugs? Because it just doesn't happen. The reason drugs are labeled as addictive...is because they are addictive. Not because "the man" want's to oppress you. Not because a couple of folks in a control group got violent during testing. Not because rats will overindulge to the point of death...it's because we, as humans, rarely have the maturity and self-control to "just say no" when necessary.

Seems obvious that you haven't been around long. Tiz obvious that you haven't lived on the street. You haven't had to steal your groceries and booze from the local grocery store. You haven't ran out of speed two days ago, after a two week binge, and need to eat. You've never been forced to pick other people's burritos out of the Del Taco trash, and take them to the 7-11 to use their microwave to heat it up again. You haven't sliced your arm open dumpster-diving for bottles, cans and plastic, to get enough for a fifth that day, and had to go to the hospital three days later for stitches and antibiotics. You haven't had friends freak-out at the sight of evening shadows, and run into traffic to avoid those shadows. (He broke both legs and was homeless...that was fun) You've never been left a grilfriends baby to watch while she 'goes to the store'...only to get a call from her three days later from jail. (I had to call her mom to explain the situation and the drug charges. Grandma picked-up 2 yr old David about an hour later.)

But I'm willing to bet you've stole you friends stash, and helped them look for it. And I'm also willing to bet the worse drug experience you've had was watching The Osbourne's.

Regarding this subject, you exhibit that you seem to know nothing.

[TyPR124]

No, but what you are implying is strreotypical childish rhetoric, comparing apples and oranges. You are insulting, at best. (and foolishly misled)

Yea I definately meant that all blacks are killers and rapists. I definantly just said that you shouldn't stereotype whilst I just did the same thing and meant it... hey now this time I bet you can't tell I'm being sarcastic?

How about this, you tell me anything where you can start off "<insert group of people>, as a general rule... <list of stuff about them that at least 90% of people are gaurenteed to agree with (excluding the group your talking about)>" and tell me it's NOT stereotyping. Thats not to say its always wrong, but IT IS stereotyping.


Would be a nice theory, were you not full of shit.

Well whether you beleive it or not, that is why I don't drink. Cause I've seen my dad drunk as fuck, holding a loaded rifle (yes a rifle, 30 ot 6 or whatever its called... I'll admit I know shit about guns lol) to my mom's head, with my pap in the background trying to talk him out of it... that might just be a reason not to drink...

And I'm pretty sure society learns from experience. I'm not saying the second generation will be the end, I'm saying there will be less addicts because there are other people like me that are smart enough to learn from other's mistakes. Of course, it would take many generations before it wouldn't be a big problem in society any more.


Seems obvious that you haven't been around long. Tiz obvious that you haven't lived on the street.

No I haven't. I haven't lived on the streets, or any of the other stuff you said. But what does that even have to do with this situation? Sure, you apparently hang out with the dumbasses that just do stupid shit. The people I hang out with are smart. We smoke weed and kick back. One of my best friends is going to college for free and gets a free trip to Harrisburgh (capital of PA) with a free weekend at a Hilton because he's representing our region in a state networking competition. I've learned programming, and am working on a hobby operating system (not that it will be good). Not my fault you apparently hang out with the wrong people.

All I said is that I don't think addicting drugs should be legalized, but neither do I think the government has the right to say they are illegal. Personally, I'm pretty much neutral on anything but weed, because I've never tried them (how can anyone have a REAL opinion on something without having the experience), and I don't plan on it cause I've seen how fucked up they can make people too (whole nother story.) But there are people out there like me that are able to see the flaws from others and fix themselves.

If you want my true opinion on everything: we, humans, as a species need to get the fuck off the planet. We are all (me included) are all egotistic and hypocritical. What have we done for the planet besides fuck it up?

[Rusty Trichome]

But there are people out there like me that are able to see the flaws from others and fix themselves.
People like you...? :wtf:

Intelligence has no bearing on whether or not you become addicted. If drugs are the thing that get you through the rough spots, drugs are what you will commit to, regardless of the problems they present, the people they hurt, the lives they destroy.

Your childish retorts are boring and obviously lacking any forethought. :jointsmile:

[MonkeyBone]

Drugs are part of the human evolution. Can't argue with that. All civilization had or have their uses of different drugs. Maybe if it was legal, it may decrease violence and rage to get desired substances.

Anyway, here, if someone wants opium, he can find it. We can find anything we want here. Black market is sooo huge! And substances are not controlled so we can buy crap! And kill ourselves!

If it was legal, it will be like alcohol. Tested and all.

Personaly, I took anything possible except heroin. No IV for me! Now, I smoke weed occasionaly and a bit of shrooms once a year. If all this was legal, would I had took more of those substances and more also today? NO!!! So let's legalize 'em!


Moderation is the key with all substances!

[Rusty Trichome]

Moderation is the key with all substances! Gee...no shit. Were you to make a pill that would make this possible, you'd be richer than Bill gates.

[denialisback]

Gee...no shit. Were you to make a pill that would make this possible, you'd be richer than Bill gates.

were the "stupid" people not so irresponsible, the "smart", "responsible" people could enjoy their medication in a way that doesn't involve the incitement of fear, nor the indictment of freedom.

Anyways, it's total utter madness to punish medical growers, they aren't hurting anyone, not even themselves :(

This isn't something a pill can solve I wish it was... I'm sick and tired of being told I can't be a responsible medical marijuana user/grower just because of a represented minority as a larger majority (IMO).!

Peace,
Denial