Anyone else horrified their tax dollars buy death?

[overgrowthegovt]

Personally, whenever I think about it, it disgusts me. Some rifle my taxes bought probably is responsible for some Afghani civilian's brains splattered across the street as we speak. Either that or some new anti-drug propaganda is being paid for.

[MaryJaneMonkey]

Yeah it sucks, whats worse is that the tax the govnt steals from you.
Look up the irs, most people who worked there quit, and reported what they saw on you tube: no law stating we have to pay.

What happend to the good old days of taring and feathering the tax collector, and fighting for are freedom. Why is this country so paccified???

[FreshNugz]

Yep, couldn't agree more. I really hope we'll be out soon. Though of course its a bigger clusterfuck now than it was when we all arrived. I'm waiting to see what will happen come 2011, when Canada is supposed to end its mission. With all the new pressure being exerted there by the US, and Harper still in government, we'll probably end up along for the ride.
One can only hope that somewhere there will be some benefit from this.

[overgrowthegovt]

Yep, couldn't agree more. I really hope we'll be out soon. Though of course its a bigger clusterfuck now than it was when we all arrived. I'm waiting to see what will happen come 2011, when Canada is supposed to end its mission. With all the new pressure being exerted there by the US, and Harper still in government, we'll probably end up along for the ride.
One can only hope that somewhere there will be some benefit from this.

I hate how our media calls it a "mission" so the Canadian people won't think of us as being at war and can sit comfortably on their asses.

The only difference between our pulling out in 2011 and our pulling out tomorrow will be that in 2 years' time another few dozen of our young men, and however many Afghani civilians, will be dead. And, of course, we'll be billions of dollars poorer. All to impose the Western agenda on the world's dissident nations. I'm ashamed to belong to the Western world a lot of the time.

[Breukelen advocaat]

If Afghanistan's Taliban leaders had handed over bin Laden and his cohorts after 9/11, they probably would not have been invaded in the first place. They (Taliban) were totally uncooperative. Many aspects of this war were handled all wrong by us, but something needed to be done. Instead of attacking Kabul, and other cities, we should have pattern-bombed, or nuked, the mountainous regions where Al-Quada operatives and leaders were holed up.

[Mississippi Steve]

Personally, whenever I think about it, it disgusts me. Some rifle my taxes bought probably is responsible for some Afghani civilian's brains splattered across the street as we speak. Either that or some new anti-drug propaganda is being paid for.

<sigh> such narrow minded thoughts... Your tax dollars go to a whole lot more than just weapons for the military. Personally, I take comfort in knowing that my tax dollars are going to pay the salaries of our military, and supporting their families. These are the folks that defend your right to freedom of speech.

Before you get your panties in a wad, I am 53 years old, retired military, a business owner(paying both personal and business taxes), and have a whole lot of lifes experiences behind me. Come talk to me in about 10 years after your out of school.

[the image reaper]

<sigh> such narrow minded thoughts... Your tax dollars go to a whole lot more than just weapons for the military. Personally, I take comfort in knowing that my tax dollars are going to pay the salaries of our military, and supporting their families. These are the folks that defend your right to freedom of speech.

Before you get your panties in a wad, I am 53 years old, retired military, a business owner(paying both personal and business taxes), and have a whole lot of lifes experiences behind me. Come talk to me in about 10 years after your out of school.

I couldn't agree more ! :thumbsup: ... next time you 'weeping pacifists' are in danger, call a hippie ! ... our military protects your rights to be ignorant :smokin:

[painretreat]

We all live to pay taxes to death!

My concern is, here in (at least Calif.) our taxes are going up and up! The day will come when a social security check will not pay your property taxes.

More horrified that people can't afford to pay their taxes! PR ;)

Like, get an IRA or 401k, after most is lost in the stock market, when you do decide to pull it out for use, the taxes will be higher then than they were when you earned the money, if you have any left! ever think of that?

[McDanger]

We all live to pay taxes to death!

My concern is, here in (at least Calif.) our taxes are going up and up! The day will come when a social security check will not pay your property taxes.

More horrified that people can't afford to pay their taxes! PR ;)

Like, get an IRA or 401k, after most is lost in the stock market, when you do decide to pull it out for use, the taxes will be higher then than they were when you earned the money, if you have any left! ever think of that?

That is why there is a Roth, you pay the tax up front instead of when you pull it out.
Wait till the stimulus hits the fan, taxes will have to AT LEAST double. Federal Gov't debt will be 13% of the total output of the whole USA, worst in history.
Thank you Barack Mugabe.

[overgrowthegovt]

It is not "narrow-minded" to be aware of the fact that the Western world wages war for its own self-serving agendas and feeds the public shameless propaganda about "defending our freedom" and so forth. Defending the oppressive global status quo, more like.

All the U.S. or Canadian military personnel do is waste billions of dollars on killing people halfway across the world so Haliburton can get a nice juicy contract over there, so it irritates me to no end that their undeserved salaries will be coming out of our pockets (I "support the troops" by advocating that they be brought back home in one piece, before it's too late).

As for 9/11, it was of course a horrendous spectacle, but it has been argued by some (notably Ward Churchill, who was basically tarred and feathered after that) as the natural and inevitable response to decades of raping the Middle East. The deaths in the two towers are nothing compared to the unspeakably evil carnage wrought over there. I mean, seriously, the U.S. initiates countless explosions and incidents of civilian death over there, and then acts shocked and appalledwhen it gets handed back to them.

Mississippi Steve, I acknowledge you as my senior but ask that my views (based upon reading and worldly knowledge) not be automatically dismissed simply on account of my youth. I'm vastly more intelligent than any of my grandparents, so age is really only the most rudimentary guideline.

[LolaGal]

Nah, I'm immune to tax funded death machines....

After growing up watching the VietNam war on TV every night, this all seems pretty tame to me.....

[Breukelen advocaat]

home in one piece, before it's too late).
As for 9/11, it was of course a horrendous spectacle, but it has been argued by some (notably Ward Churchill, who was basically tarred and feathered after that) as the natural and inevitable response to decades of raping the Middle East.

Here's another quote by Ward Churchill, regarding the victims of the attacks of 9/11: â??Well, really, let's get a grip here shall we? True enough, they were civilians of sort. But innocent? Give me a break.â?�

Tarrded and feathered? There's neighboroods in NYC where he'd get thrown off a roof!

[the image reaper]

a Canadian should know better than most, the value of the United States' military ... after all, you're not speaking Russian, yet ... :jointsmile:

[Mississippi Steve]

Nah, I'm immune to tax funded death machines....

After growing up watching the VietNam war on TV every night, this all seems pretty tame to me.....

I watched it all on the tube also and enlisted in the Coast Guard so I wouldn't have to go to Nam.. When I got my draft notice, I was on USCGC Glacier in th Bearing Sea. :D

[overgrowthegovt]

Here's another quote by Ward Churchill, regarding the victims of the attacks of 9/11: â??Well, really, let's get a grip here shall we? True enough, they were civilians of sort. But innocent? Give me a break.â?�

Tarrded and feathered? There's neighboroods in NYC where he'd get thrown off a roof!

I've read the essay, and I know the context of the quote you're refering to...he was saying that the trade centre workers were, through their labour, assisting and perpetuating the world's inequalies. Even though their intents weren't malicious, being just your typical thoughtless people doing what pays the bills, they were complicit cogs in the despotic machine. "Little Eichmanns", he called them.

In the post-9/11 hysteria everyone blacklisted Churchill because no one would acknowledge that their nation's foreign policy was responsible for the tragedy.

[Dream of the iris]

Yeah it sucks, whats worse is that the tax the govnt steals from you.
Look up the irs, most people who worked there quit, and reported what they saw on you tube: no law stating we have to pay.

What happend to the good old days of taring and feathering the tax collector, and fighting for are freedom. Why is this country so paccified???

Actually there is a law in the constitution that says the government has a right to collect taxes. It's the 16th amendment which goes something like this: "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, WITHOUT apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any CENSUS OR ENUMERATION."

Of course it doesn't say the income tax it does say it can tax the states without a general consensus. So by technicality the income tax is constitutional, however, I'll be the first to say it shouldn't be there in the first place. Anyway, I would imagine some of our taxes going towards the military but realistically only a small percentage of our taxes goes to anything. It mostly goes to paying off the national debt, but because we need money to continue these governmental programs as well as our huge foreign affairs and the fact that we have to pay off the national debt + interest there is no way the collection of 300 million peoples taxes would pay for much. This is why we borrow and create money.

[epxroot]

If Afghanistan's Taliban leaders had handed over bin Laden and his cohorts after 9/11, they probably would not have been invaded in the first place. They (Taliban) were totally uncooperative. Many aspects of this war were handled all wrong by us, but something needed to be done. Instead of attacking Kabul, and other cities, we should have pattern-bombed, or nuked, the mountainous regions where Al-Quada operatives and leaders were holed up.

What a lot of people seem to forget is that the leaders said they would have no problem handing over Laden, as long as the US came up with evidence that Laden was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. The US never had any evidence that he was behind it, and they knew it. There is still no mention of Ladens wanted status on the FBI list for 9/11.

[FreshNugz]

Yeah, I love how the solution is "nuke".....honestly people!!!!!!
That's sickening. Oh it's not working, so we should nuke it!

How the hell would you feel if someone sprung a nuclear weapon on you? The inability of people to see this from a perspective other than their own immediate one is disgusting.

[Breukelen advocaat]

What a lot of people seem to forget is that the leaders said they would have no problem handing over Laden, as long as the US came up with evidence that Laden was responsible for the 9/11 attacks. The US never had any evidence that he was behind it, and they knew it. There is still no mention of Ladens wanted status on the FBI list for 9/11.
Bin Laden was wanted by the FBI, and other government agencies, for other crimes against the United States before 9/11 even occurred.

If they prefer to maintain bin Laden's innocence and keep their spiritual and political leader safe, then that is the height of stupidity, not to mention arrogance.

The Taliban maimed, tortured and killed countless people in the name of Islam, for years, in Afghanistan, but they can't kill three thousand people in the United States for a religion and expect to get away with it. This movement is insane and most, if not all, of them need to die, as does al Quada.

The ultimate goal of these homocidal maniacs is to cause the destruction of the entire world, so that allah can start over. They don't care about the Gaza strip politics - they'd be trying to reach their goals even if Israel disappeared. They must be stopped before they can use nuclear and biological weapons - which they may already have.

[Dream of the iris]

Man I hate doing this but.....

The Taliban and Al Queda may be working together but their agendas are different from each other. Al Queda wants to take over the World and the Taliban want to take over Afghanistan and let everyone else fuck off. Of course you have various other tribes with their own agendas including many of the Pastun tribes. But It's difficult to name these guys terrorists because they're more or less concerned about their own villages more so than the movement. These terrorist organizations provide them resources and power to defend themselves which is what they want...not an islamic state. Oh and it's also kind of hard to lump Hamas agenda with the Taliban or Al Quedas agendas because really all Hamas wants to do is reclaim Palestine....not destroy the World.

In fact, none of these terrorist organizations want to destroy the World because if they did that then they wouldn't have anyone to rule over. When it really comes down to it, all nations want power and that includes us. The whole international game since the beginning of time has been taking over the World and Al Queda is the last one on the list to be capable of such a thing. My money's on either China, Russia, or the U.S and E.U, not with a bunch of unpopular organizations that has to use force to gain participants.

But don't let this statement fool you. I'm not a sympathizer. I believe these organizations need to be squashed, however, it is important to consider the differences in these organizations if a nation is to defeat it. For one thing the U.S CANNOT continue doing what they are doing. That is irresponsible sloppy Israeli fighting. Powerful yet ineffective.

[overgrowthegovt]

Bin Laden was wanted by the FBI, and other government agencies, for other crimes against the United States before 9/11 even occurred.

If they prefer to maintain bin Laden's innocence and keep their spiritual and political leader safe, then that is the height of stupidity, not to mention arrogance.

The Taliban maimed, tortured and killed countless people in the name of Islam, for years, in Afghanistan, but they can't kill three thousand people in the United States for a religion and expect to get away with it. This movement is insane and most, if not all, of them need to die, as does al Quada.

The ultimate goal of these homocidal maniacs is to cause the destruction of the entire world, so that allah can start over. They don't care about the Gaza strip politics - they'd be trying to reach their goals even if Israel disappeared. They must be stopped before they can use nuclear and biological weapons - which they may already have.

However many people the Taliban maimed, tortured and killed in the name of Islam, far more have been maimed, tortured and killed in the name of the Western economic and social global agenda. The goal of the homicidal maniacs in the Pentagon is to cause the structuring of the entire world along lines of pro-corporate laissez faire capitalism that favours big business interests and the American value system, which someone somehow got into their head is morally superior to all other ways of life--by whatever brutal and disgusting force deemed necessary. Oh, and there is no "may" about whether or not these maniacs have nuclear weapons; they have a vast arsenal which could potentially cause great suffering to the Islamic peoples, and probably will if another Christian nut ever gets into the White House.

[Breukelen advocaat]

However many people the Taliban maimed, tortured and killed in the name of Islam, far more have been maimed, tortured and killed in the name of the Western economic and social global agenda. The goal of the homicidal maniacs in the Pentagon is to cause the structuring of the entire world along lines of pro-corporate laissez faire capitalism that favours big business interests and the American value system, which someone somehow got into their head is morally superior to all other ways of life--by whatever brutal and disgusting force deemed necessary. Oh, and there is no "may" about whether or not these maniacs have nuclear weapons; they have a vast arsenal which could potentially cause great suffering to the Islamic peoples, and probably will if another Christian nut ever gets into the White House.
So, I take it that you'd prefer the Taliban and al Quaeda to be in charge of our government, and our nuclear weapons. Hope that you're a devout Muslim, because you'll be dead if you aren't.

[Breukelen advocaat]

Confronting Islam: 'America as the Last Man Standing'

by Geert Wilders
11 Feb, 2009

This one is somewhat old, but some messages are never. One may not necessarily agree with his every point, but its central messageâ??i.e., confronting the uncontrolled invasion of the West by Islam with a sense of urgencyâ??is most important to take home. Let us not forget that the Muslim population in the UK is growing 10 times faster than the rest of the population. There is not a lot of time at hand to play hide-and-seek or trials and errors. Posting of this message now is also an opportunity to express solidarity with Wilders, who is today banned from entering Britain (http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5197O320090210). When you put your self-proclaimed destroyers on dole, while deny entry to those, who call upon you for saving what you stand for, then your suicide is inevitable. Wilders' speech in New York on September 25, 2008, sponsored by the Hudson Institute.

Dear friends,

Thank you very much for inviting me.

I come to America with a mission. All is not well in the old world. There is a tremendous danger looming, and it is very difficult to be optimistic. We might be in the final stages of the Islamization of Europe. This not only is a clear and present danger to the future of Europe itself, it is a threat to America and the sheer survival of the West. The United States as the last bastion of Western civilization, facing an Islamic Europe.

First I will describe the situation on the ground in Europe. Then, I will say a few things about Islam. To close I will tell you about a meeting in Jerusalem.

The Europe you know is changing. You have probably seen the landmarks. But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world. It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration. All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen. And if they are, they might regret it. This goes for the police as well. It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children. Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead. With mosques on many street corners. The shops have signs you and I cannot read. You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity. These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics. These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe . These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

There are now thousands of mosques throughout Europe. With larger congregations than there are in churches. And in every European city there are plans to build super-mosques that will dwarf every church in the region. Clearly, the signal is: we rule.

Many European cities are already one-quarter Muslim: just take Amsterdam, Marseille and Malmo in Sweden.

In many cities the majority of the under-18 population is Muslim. Paris is now surrounded by a ring of Muslim neighborhoods. Mohammed is the most popular name among boys in many cities. In some elementary schools in Amsterdam the farm can no longer be mentioned, because that would also mean mentioning the pig, and that would be an insult to Muslims. Many state schools in Belgium and Denmark only serve halal food to all pupils. In once-tolerant Amsterdam gays are beaten up almost exclusively by Muslims. Non-Muslim women routinely hear 'whore, whore'. Satellite dishes are not pointed to local TV stations, but to stations in the country of origin. In France school teachers are advised to avoid authors deemed offensive to Muslims, including Voltaire and Diderot; the same is increasingly true of Darwin . The history of the Holocaust can no longer be taught because of Muslim sensitivity. In England sharia courts are now officially part of the British legal system.. Many neighborhoods in France are no-go areas for women without head scarves. Last week a man almost died after being beaten up by Muslims in Brussels, because he was drinking during the Ramadan.

Jews are fleeing France in record numbers, on the run for the worst wave of anti-Semitism since World War II.

French is now commonly spoken on the streets of Tel Aviv and Netanya, Israel. I could go on forever with stories like this. Stories about Islamization.

A total of fifty-four million Muslims now live in Europe . San Diego University recently calculated that a staggering 25 percent of the population in Europe will be Muslim just 12 years from now. Bernhard Lewis has predicted a Muslim majority by the end of this century.

Now these are just numbers. And the numbers would not be threatening if the Muslim-immigrants had a strong desire to assimilate. But there are few signs of that. The Pew Research Center reported that half of French Muslims see their loyalty to Islam as greater than their loyalty to France. One-third of French Muslims do not object to suicide attacks. The British Centre for Social Cohesion reported that one-third of British Muslim students are in favor of a worldwide caliphate. Muslims demand what they call 'respect'. And this is how we give them respect. We have Muslim official state holidays.

The Christian-Democratic attorney general is willing to accept sharia in the Netherlands if there is a Muslim majority. We have cabinet members with passports from Morocco and Turkey.

Muslim demands are supported by unlawful behavior, ranging from petty crimes and random violence, for example against ambulance workers and bus drivers, to small-scale riots. Paris has seen its uprising in the low-income suburbs, the banlieus. I call the perpetrators 'settlers'. Because that is what they are. They do not come to integrate into our societies, they come to integrate our society into their Dar-al-Islam. Therefore, they are settlers.


Much of this street violence I mentioned is directed exclusively against non-Muslims, forcing many native people to leave their neighborhoods, their cities, their countries. Moreover, Muslims are now a swing vote not to be ignored.

The second thing you need to know is the importance of Mohammed the prophet. His behavior is an example to all Muslims and cannot be criticized. Now, if Mohammed had been a man of peace, let us say like Ghandi and Mother Theresa wrapped in one, there would be no problem. But Mohammed was a warlord, a mass murderer, a pedophile, and had several marriages - at the same time. Islamic tradition tells us how he fought in battles, how he had his enemies murdered and even had prisoners of war executed. Mohammed himself slaughtered the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza. If it is good for Islam, it is good. If it is bad for Islam, it is bad.

Let no one fool you about Islam being a religion. Sure, it has a god, and a here-after, and 72 virgins. But in its essence Islam is a political ideology. It is a system that lays down detailed rules for society and the life of every person. Islam wants to dictate every aspect of life.

Islam means 'submission'. Islam is not compatible with freedom and democracy, because what it strives for is sharia.


If you want to compare Islam to anything, compare it to communism or national-socialism, these are all totalitarian ideologies.

Now you know why Winston Churchill called Islam 'the most retrograde force in the world', and why he compared Mein Kampf to the Quran. The public has wholeheartedly accepted the Palestinian narrative, and sees Israel as the aggressor. I have lived in this country and visited it dozens of times. I support Israel. First, because it is the Jewish homeland after two thousand years of exile up to and including Auschwitz, second because it is a democracy, and third because Israel is our first line of defense.

This tiny country is situated on the fault line of jihad, frustrating Islam's territorial advance. Israel is facing the front lines of jihad, like Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines, Southern Thailand, Darfur in Sudan, Lebanon, and Aceh in Indonesia. Israel is simply in the way. The same way West-Berlin was during the Cold War.

The war against Israel is not a war against Israel. It is a war against the West. It is jihad. Israel is simply receiving the blows that are meant for all of us. If there would have been no Israel, Islamic imperialism would have found other venues to release its energy and its desire for conquest. Thanks to Israeli parents who send their children to the army and lay awake at night, parents in Europe and America can sleep well and dream, unaware of the dangers looming.


Many in Europe argue in favor of abandoning Israel in order to address the grievances of our Muslim minorities. But if Israel were, God forbid, to go down, it would not bring any solace to the West. It would not mean our Muslim minorities would all of a sudden change their behavior, and accept our values. On the contrary, the end of Israel would give enormous encouragement to the forces of Islam. They would, and rightly so, see the demise of Israel as proof that the West is weak, and doomed. The end of Israel would not mean the end of our problems with Islam, but only the beginning. It would mean the start of the final battle for world domination. If they can get Israel, they can get everything. So-called journalists volunteer to label any and all critics of Islamization as a 'right-wing extremists' or 'racists'. In my country, the Netherlands, 60 percent of the population now sees the mass immigration of Muslims as the number one policy mistake since World War II. And another 60 percent sees Islam as the biggest threat. Yet there is a danger greater danger than terrorist attacks, the scenario of America as the last man standing. The lights may go out in Europe faster than you can imagine. An Islamic Europe means a Europe without freedom and democracy, an economic wasteland, an intellectual nightmare, and a loss of military might for Americaâ??as its allies will turn into enemies, enemies with atomic bombs. With an Islamic Europe, it would be up to America alone to preserve the heritage of Rome, Athens and Jerusalem.


Dear friends, liberty is the most precious of gifts. My generation never had to fight for this freedom, it was offered to us on a silver platter, by people who fought for it with their lives. All throughout Europe American cemeteries remind us of the young boys who never made it home, and whose memory we cherish. My generation does not own this freedom; we are merely its custodians. We can only hand over this hard won liberty to Europe 's children in the same state in which it was offered to us. We cannot strike a deal with mullahs and imams. Future generations would never forgive us. We cannot squander our liberties. We simply don't have the right to do so.

Islam Watch - "Confronting Islam: 'America as the Last Man Standing'" by Geert Wilders (http://www.islam-watch.org/Europe/Confronting-Islam-America-Last-Man-Standing.htm)

[MadSativa]

Nope not horrified, or mad at all, in fact I lose sleep every night but not cause of this ....in the slightest. I saw a video of Iraqi kids running up to a humvee loaded with marines, the Marines were cool and nice laughing and giving them MRE's but all I could think is if I were in that situation all those kids would be dead. In that situation I see no reasone why they should not have opened up and split em all down the middle. These guys and girls do a amazing job out thier despite all the things that are against them. I just wish we had better supplies for them than just rifels.

[ILLNotSick]

Whats the point. Nothing changes by showing the Government emotion.
You have to think like a sex slave, lay there, close your eyes and go to your happy place..


The Adult industry is the only thing that horrifies me. My dog snoop says it best,

[FreshNugz]

Nope not horrified, or mad at all, in fact I lose sleep every night but not cause of this ....in the slightest. I saw a video of Iraqi kids running up to a humvee loaded with marines, the Marines were cool and nice laughing and giving them MRE's but all I could think is if I were in that situation all those kids would be dead. In that situation I see no reasone why they should not have opened up and split em all down the middle. These guys and girls do a amazing job out thier despite all the things that are against them. I just wish we had better supplies for them than just rifels.

It's kinda sick that you'd blast little kids away. Actually its not kinda...its completely fucked.
Cause that will sure help them stop chanting "Death to America".
Im so worried that people actually think like this!!!
Again...PUT YOURSELF IN THEIR SHOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How is that so damn difficult to get?
Picture an invading force here...then picture your kid being shot and killed by them. And what would you do?

how hard is it for people to pull their head out of their ass(or their ipod, or their 'bachelor' episode, or whatever other kind of pitiful propoganda/entertainment you are partaking in) and realize that even though there is a good aspect to this mission...the way we are going about it is wrong. Plain and simple.

All you hawks should just consider yourself lucky we aren't facing an invasion. Or that we don't speak chinese or russian, and we're not on the shitty end of the power pyramid. All's well and good when you're the one firing, isn't it....
Disgusting.

[Mississippi Steve]

It's kinda sick that you'd blast little kids away. Actually its not kinda...its completely fucked.
Cause that will sure help them stop chanting "Death to America".
Im so worried that people actually think like this!!!
Again...PUT YOURSELF IN THEIR SHOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How is that so damn difficult to get?
Picture an invading force here...then picture your kid being shot and killed by them. And what would you do?

how hard is it for people to pull their head out of their ass(or their ipod, or their 'bachelor' episode, or whatever other kind of pitiful propoganda/entertainment you are partaking in) and realize that even though there is a good aspect to this mission...the way we are going about it is wrong. Plain and simple.

All you hawks should just consider yourself lucky we aren't facing an invasion. Or that we don't speak chinese or russian, and we're not on the shitty end of the power pyramid. All's well and good when you're the one firing, isn't it....
Disgusting.

In Nam, little kids would walk up to soldiers, drop a live grenade at their feet and run.... I am surprised they are not having that prob in Iraq, or having probs with sappers either. I guess they are having enough problems with IEDs and car bombs. vigilance means you keep on living, indiference and/or letting your guard down can cost you and your fellow brothers in arms their lives. but they don't show those kinds of things in the media. They only show what they can sensationalize.

Yes I am a Viet nam era vet, and I still remember.

[apocolips31]

Confronting Islam: 'America as the Last Man Standing'

by Geert Wilders
11 Feb, 2009

This one is somewhat old, but some messages are never. One may not necessarily agree with his every point, but its central messageâ??i.e., confronting the uncontrolled invasion of the West by Islam with a sense of urgencyâ??is most important to take home. Let us not forget that the Muslim population in the UK is growing 10 times faster than the rest of the population. There is not a lot of time at hand to play hide-and-seek or trials and errors. Posting of this message now is also an opportunity to express solidarity with Wilders, who is today banned from entering Britain (http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE5197O320090210). When you put your self-proclaimed destroyers on dole, while deny entry to those, who call upon you for saving what you stand for, then your suicide is inevitable. Wilders' speech in New York on September 25, 2008, sponsored by the Hudson Institute.

Dear friends,

Thank you very much for inviting me.

I come to America with a mission. All is not well in the old world. There is a tremendous danger looming, and it is very difficult to be optimistic. We might be in the final stages of the Islamization of Europe. This not only is a clear and present danger to the future of Europe itself, it is a threat to America and the sheer survival of the West. The United States as the last bastion of Western civilization, facing an Islamic Europe.

First I will describe the situation on the ground in Europe. Then, I will say a few things about Islam. To close I will tell you about a meeting in Jerusalem.

The Europe you know is changing. You have probably seen the landmarks. But in all of these cities, sometimes a few blocks away from your tourist destination, there is another world. It is the world of the parallel society created by Muslim mass-migration. All throughout Europe a new reality is rising: entire Muslim neighborhoods where very few indigenous people reside or are even seen. And if they are, they might regret it. This goes for the police as well. It's the world of head scarves, where women walk around in figureless tents, with baby strollers and a group of children. Their husbands, or slaveholders if you prefer, walk three steps ahead. With mosques on many street corners. The shops have signs you and I cannot read. You will be hard-pressed to find any economic activity. These are Muslim ghettos controlled by religious fanatics. These are Muslim neighborhoods, and they are mushrooming in every city across Europe . These are the building-blocks for territorial control of increasingly larger portions of Europe , street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, city by city.

There are now thousands of mosques throughout Europe. With larger congregations than there are in churches. And in every European city there are plans to build super-mosques that will dwarf every church in the region. Clearly, the signal is: we rule.

Many European cities are already one-quarter Muslim: just take Amsterdam, Marseille and Malmo in Sweden.

In many cities the majority of the under-18 population is Muslim. Paris is now surrounded by a ring of Muslim neighborhoods. Mohammed is the most popular name among boys in many cities. In some elementary schools in Amsterdam the farm can no longer be mentioned, because that would also mean mentioning the pig, and that would be an insult to Muslims. Many state schools in Belgium and Denmark only serve halal food to all pupils. In once-tolerant Amsterdam gays are beaten up almost exclusively by Muslims. Non-Muslim women routinely hear 'whore, whore'. Satellite dishes are not pointed to local TV stations, but to stations in the country of origin. In France school teachers are advised to avoid authors deemed offensive to Muslims, including Voltaire and Diderot; the same is increasingly true of Darwin . The history of the Holocaust can no longer be taught because of Muslim sensitivity. In England sharia courts are now officially part of the British legal system.. Many neighborhoods in France are no-go areas for women without head scarves. Last week a man almost died after being beaten up by Muslims in Brussels, because he was drinking during the Ramadan.

Jews are fleeing France in record numbers, on the run for the worst wave of anti-Semitism since World War II.

French is now commonly spoken on the streets of Tel Aviv and Netanya, Israel. I could go on forever with stories like this. Stories about Islamization.

A total of fifty-four million Muslims now live in Europe . San Diego University recently calculated that a staggering 25 percent of the population in Europe will be Muslim just 12 years from now. Bernhard Lewis has predicted a Muslim majority by the end of this century.

Now these are just numbers. And the numbers would not be threatening if the Muslim-immigrants had a strong desire to assimilate. But there are few signs of that. The Pew Research Center reported that half of French Muslims see their loyalty to Islam as greater than their loyalty to France. One-third of French Muslims do not object to suicide attacks. The British Centre for Social Cohesion reported that one-third of British Muslim students are in favor of a worldwide caliphate. Muslims demand what they call 'respect'. And this is how we give them respect. We have Muslim official state holidays.

The Christian-Democratic attorney general is willing to accept sharia in the Netherlands if there is a Muslim majority. We have cabinet members with passports from Morocco and Turkey.

Muslim demands are supported by unlawful behavior, ranging from petty crimes and random violence, for example against ambulance workers and bus drivers, to small-scale riots. Paris has seen its uprising in the low-income suburbs, the banlieus. I call the perpetrators 'settlers'. Because that is what they are. They do not come to integrate into our societies, they come to integrate our society into their Dar-al-Islam. Therefore, they are settlers.


Much of this street violence I mentioned is directed exclusively against non-Muslims, forcing many native people to leave their neighborhoods, their cities, their countries. Moreover, Muslims are now a swing vote not to be ignored.

The second thing you need to know is the importance of Mohammed the prophet. His behavior is an example to all Muslims and cannot be criticized. Now, if Mohammed had been a man of peace, let us say like Ghandi and Mother Theresa wrapped in one, there would be no problem. But Mohammed was a warlord, a mass murderer, a pedophile, and had several marriages - at the same time. Islamic tradition tells us how he fought in battles, how he had his enemies murdered and even had prisoners of war executed. Mohammed himself slaughtered the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza. If it is good for Islam, it is good. If it is bad for Islam, it is bad.

Let no one fool you about Islam being a religion. Sure, it has a god, and a here-after, and 72 virgins. But in its essence Islam is a political ideology. It is a system that lays down detailed rules for society and the life of every person. Islam wants to dictate every aspect of life.

Islam means 'submission'. Islam is not compatible with freedom and democracy, because what it strives for is sharia.


If you want to compare Islam to anything, compare it to communism or national-socialism, these are all totalitarian ideologies.

Now you know why Winston Churchill called Islam 'the most retrograde force in the world', and why he compared Mein Kampf to the Quran. The public has wholeheartedly accepted the Palestinian narrative, and sees Israel as the aggressor. I have lived in this country and visited it dozens of times. I support Israel. First, because it is the Jewish homeland after two thousand years of exile up to and including Auschwitz, second because it is a democracy, and third because Israel is our first line of defense.

This tiny country is situated on the fault line of jihad, frustrating Islam's territorial advance. Israel is facing the front lines of jihad, like Kashmir, Kosovo, the Philippines, Southern Thailand, Darfur in Sudan, Lebanon, and Aceh in Indonesia. Israel is simply in the way. The same way West-Berlin was during the Cold War.

The war against Israel is not a war against Israel. It is a war against the West. It is jihad. Israel is simply receiving the blows that are meant for all of us. If there would have been no Israel, Islamic imperialism would have found other venues to release its energy and its desire for conquest. Thanks to Israeli parents who send their children to the army and lay awake at night, parents in Europe and America can sleep well and dream, unaware of the dangers looming.


Many in Europe argue in favor of abandoning Israel in order to address the grievances of our Muslim minorities. But if Israel were, God forbid, to go down, it would not bring any solace to the West. It would not mean our Muslim minorities would all of a sudden change their behavior, and accept our values. On the contrary, the end of Israel would give enormous encouragement to the forces of Islam. They would, and rightly so, see the demise of Israel as proof that the West is weak, and doomed. The end of Israel would not mean the end of our problems with Islam, but only the beginning. It would mean the start of the final battle for world domination. If they can get Israel, they can get everything. So-called journalists volunteer to label any and all critics of Islamization as a 'right-wing extremists' or 'racists'. In my country, the Netherlands, 60 percent of the population now sees the mass immigration of Muslims as the number one policy mistake since World War II. And another 60 percent sees Islam as the biggest threat. Yet there is a danger greater danger than terrorist attacks, the scenario of America as the last man standing. The lights may go out in Europe faster than you can imagine. An Islamic Europe means a Europe without freedom and democracy, an economic wasteland, an intellectual nightmare, and a loss of military might for Americaâ??as its allies will turn into enemies, enemies with atomic bombs. With an Islamic Europe, it would be up to America alone to preserve the heritage of Rome, Athens and Jerusalem.


Dear friends, liberty is the most precious of gifts. My generation never had to fight for this freedom, it was offered to us on a silver platter, by people who fought for it with their lives. All throughout Europe American cemeteries remind us of the young boys who never made it home, and whose memory we cherish. My generation does not own this freedom; we are merely its custodians. We can only hand over this hard won liberty to Europe 's children in the same state in which it was offered to us. We cannot strike a deal with mullahs and imams. Future generations would never forgive us. We cannot squander our liberties. We simply don't have the right to do so.

Islam Watch - "Confronting Islam: 'America as the Last Man Standing'" by Geert Wilders (http://www.islam-watch.org/Europe/Confronting-Islam-America-Last-Man-Standing.htm)

You can be damn sure if fucked up shit like this were happening in America, it would be us kicking their ass down the street.

[luciddreamer]

FreshNugz, you're completely right. Just want to congratulate you on your sane view.



The Taliban maimed, tortured and killed countless people in the name of Islam, for years, in Afghanistan, but they can't kill three thousand people in the United States for a religion and expect to get away with it.

I thought that was sarcasm when I first read it. That is how dumb you sound.

So it doesn't matter that they're bombing the shit out of their own civilians but a couple of U.S people means they should be destroyed?
I'd say the only reason to destroy them is coz they are evil bastards.
I can tell you're one of those 'patriotic' people who would just nuke the whole middle east if you could.

Honestly I don't understand patriotism either. Why would you be proud of your country? Unless it's murder, rape etc. free and everyone is happy most of the time there is no reason to be proud.
And really it's just a group of people who all have different beliefs.
It's not like a whole country has ANYTHING in common besides walking on the same ground surrounded by water.

Anyway....
If the U.S really thinks they are so bad, they would bomb them to high heaven. It's not what it's about. Think about that.

To reiterate freshnugz view....
Why do you guys think it's okay to destroy people because they live in a different country or hold different beliefs?
As I said "every person holds different beliefs" not just every country.
Most of those people want to get out of there.

But most importantly, who are you to say that their beliefs are wrong!?
The only reason you do is because what you were brought up to believe is different.

Think about this, why is it wrong to marry a 12 year old?
Can actually think of any valid, rational reason?
To them it's perfectly fine because, obviously, most women start ovulating then so, naturally they are ready to have children.
To Western countries it's wrong because our law says you have to be 18 for some reason or another.
Honestly, give me a reason why it's wrong.
Then consider the same rationale with the rest of their beliefs.

[apocolips31]

Here are a few reason why a 12 year old should not be allowed to marry. For one they are too young to deal with all the emotional stresses that come with marriage and bearing children. Another is they are taken advantage of or sold off to some husband five times their age. Are you really telling me you think a 12 year old is capable of comprehending what marriage means for them? Do you think they are developed enough to make that choice themselves or be forced into it? Now about the patriotism. To be patriotic you do not have to fully agree with everything your country does or be proud of that. What I am proud of is what my country is suppose to stand for and hopefully one day will. I am proud of all the people who died fighting for my and your right to say what the hell ever we want. I am proud that no matter the cost we will defend freedom. If you can't find one reason to be proud of your country well....lets just say I am glad you are not American. For we do not need anymore sunshine patriots.

[Mississippi Steve]

Here are a few reason why a 12 year old should not be allowed to marry. For one they are too young to deal with all the emotional stresses that come with marriage and bearing children. Another is they are taken advantage of or sold off to some husband five times their age. Are you really telling me you think a 12 year old is capable of comprehending what marriage means for them? Do you think they are developed enough to make that choice themselves or be forced into it? Now about the patriotism. To be patriotic you do not have to fully agree with everything your country does or be proud of that. What I am proud of is what my country is suppose to stand for and hopefully one day will. I am proud of all the people who died fighting for my and your right to say what the hell ever we want. I am proud that no matter the cost we will defend freedom. If you can't find one reason to be proud of your country well....lets just say I am glad you are not American. For we do not need anymore sunshine patriots.

AMEN BROTHER!

[overgrowthegovt]

In Nam, little kids would walk up to soldiers, drop a live grenade at their feet and run.... I am surprised they are not having that prob in Iraq, or having probs with sappers either. I guess they are having enough problems with IEDs and car bombs. vigilance means you keep on living, indiference and/or letting your guard down can cost you and your fellow brothers in arms their lives. but they don't show those kinds of things in the media. They only show what they can sensationalize.

Yes I am a Viet nam era vet, and I still remember.

Can you blame the kids? The soldiers were there, after all, to wreak death and destruction on their countrymen.

To whoever was talking about the U.S. defending freedom...you poor, naive bastard. The backing of the East Timor slaughter was not a defense of freedom, nor is the support of Israel's right to tyrannize whoever happen to live in the land of the chosen people, nor was the shit they've pulled in Haiti, Iran, Puerto Rico, etc. They act in their national interest, not to defend true freedom, but to defend their narrow definition of freedom, which means laissez faire corporatism at the expense of human dignity. In fact, their key position in the International Monetary Fund has led to them pressuring countries in debt to lower economic intervention and cut spending on health and education. No, they defend freedom the way the Soviets defended the Czechs' freedom in 1968 (the justification then being the defense of freedom from poisonous capitalistic tendencies).

Face it, patriots...what your country is doing in the world is purely self-serving, CEOs are the primary beneficiaries, and no amount of lust for security can justify constant pre-emption. "We'd rather fight them over there than over here"...sounds reasonable, but after decades of the violence happening over there, maybe it'd be fair to have some of it over here. Maybe then the horrors of war will be felt as a reality, not as a remote campaign that doesn't interfere with Sunday dinner.

[luciddreamer]

Here are a few reason why a 12 year old should not be allowed to marry. For one they are too young to deal with all the emotional stresses that come with marriage and bearing children. Another is they are taken advantage of or sold off to some husband five times their age. Are you really telling me you think a 12 year old is capable of comprehending what marriage means for them? Do you think they are developed enough to make that choice themselves or be forced into it?

Why are they too young? Only because Western society deems them too young. In other societies they are taught these things and it is the norm, so when they are twelve they are fully ready. Maybe not fully, but is anyone here even fully ready to have a kid? no you can't be until you have one.
I'm not talking about selling kids, I'm talking about legitimate marriage or having kids.

And yeah as overgrow said, fighting wars has nothing to do with freedom. Let alone freedom of speech as people are saying. How the hell does blowing someone up give you freedom of speech huh?

[apocolips31]

A child should be playing with their friends and learning not being a mommy and house wife. Just because they can bear children doesn't mean they are ready to. Also their are plenty of studies which show a child's brain at that age is no where close to be fully developed. So what is the harm of marrying at an older age? Why do they want them so young? I will tell you why because they are sick child molesters and you are starting to sound like one too. Just trying to justify your sick fantasy's? If I am wrong I apologize but, that is how you are coming off to me. As for the part of freedom of speech and you failing to comprehend the connection between that and war. Blowing something up will help you gain freedom of speech, if what you are blowing up is what is prohibiting you from speaking in the first place. Did not our revolutionary war set the stage for us to create our own country? In turn giving us all the rights we enjoy today. So you see war and freedom are very closely linked, because if their is not a way to protect your self you will at some point fall victim to someone. If we couldn't repel the forces of the axis do you think we would be living as we do today? I wonder would their even be a thing called a "right" in such a world?

[Mississippi Steve]

Can you blame the kids? The soldiers were there, after all, to wreak death and destruction on their countrymen.

To whoever was talking about the U.S. defending freedom...you poor, naive bastard. The backing of the East Timor slaughter was not a defense of freedom, nor is the support of Israel's right to tyrannize whoever happen to live in the land of the chosen people, nor was the shit they've pulled in Haiti, Iran, Puerto Rico, etc. They act in their national interest, not to defend true freedom, but to defend their narrow definition of freedom, which means laissez faire corporatism at the expense of human dignity. In fact, their key position in the International Monetary Fund has led to them pressuring countries in debt to lower economic intervention and cut spending on health and education. No, they defend freedom the way the Soviets defended the Czechs' freedom in 1968 (the justification then being the defense of freedom from poisonous capitalistic tendencies).

Face it, patriots...what your country is doing in the world is purely self-serving, CEOs are the primary beneficiaries, and no amount of lust for security can justify constant pre-emption. "We'd rather fight them over there than over here"...sounds reasonable, but after decades of the violence happening over there, maybe it'd be fair to have some of it over here. Maybe then the horrors of war will be felt as a reality, not as a remote campaign that doesn't interfere with Sunday dinner.


How many years did you serve in the military?? None I bet.... What have you done to help secure your freedoms?? probably not much there either.
Maybe you should go to Iraq and explain the error of their ways. After all, they have only been at war for 4,000 years, and they treat their women like chattel, and kill them with minimum provocation by some very cruel means.
Feel free to go over there an tell them its not right. But unless you have first hand experience, you might want to re-think what you read in the biased media, and books. I don't mind fighting a war for human rights.....been there, done that. Come talk to me whan you can say the same.

[Breukelen advocaat]

I thought that was sarcasm when I first read it. That is how dumb you sound.
I do not care if the people of Afghanistan want the Taliban. We were sending millions in foreign aid to Afghanistan prior to 9/11. Not only did we do no harm to the country, we also helped them to oust the Soviets. They paid us back by sheltering and supporting bin Laden.

So it doesn't matter that they're bombing the shit out of their own civilians but a couple of U.S people means they should be destroyed?
If you read what I said, you'd see that I supported bombing them in the hills, in their ratholes, rather than in the major cities and populated areas.

I'd say the only reason to destroy them is coz they are evil bastards.
I can tell you're one of those 'patriotic' people who would just nuke the whole middle east if you could.
I am more in favor of using economic boycotting than nuclear weapons, to force these countries to deal with their lunatic fringes and corrupt governments.

Honestly I don't understand patriotism either. Why would you be proud of your country? Unless it's murder, rape etc. free and everyone is happy most of the time there is no reason to be proud.
There are times when there are reasons to be proud, and other times dissapointed.

Anyway....
If the U.S really thinks they are so bad, they would bomb them to high heaven. It's not what it's about. Think about that.
The Taliban and al Quada cannot be dealt with in the way they expect - we must hit them like there's no tomorrow. I'd make them think that the Crusades was like a walk through the Botanical Gardens.

The culture and belief systems of Islam are horrific, for the most part, but I'm all for just leaving them alone (not including finding and punishing criminals like bin Laden)......unless they start fucking with us again. Then you take the gloves off and wipe out their ability to fight for good. There seems to be a trend of less Islamic radicalism for the past few years. Maybe some have learned their lesson, but we shouldn't let our guard down, because their religion demands Jihad, and some will never be satisfied until they've killed off everybody that isn't a Muslim.

[overgrowthegovt]

How many years did you serve in the military?? None I bet.... What have you done to help secure your freedoms?? probably not much there either.
Maybe you should go to Iraq and explain the error of their ways. After all, they have only been at war for 4,000 years, and they treat their women like chattel, and kill them with minimum provocation by some very cruel means.
Feel free to go over there an tell them its not right. But unless you have first hand experience, you might want to re-think what you read in the biased media, and books. I don't mind fighting a war for human rights.....been there, done that. Come talk to me whan you can say the same.

You seem to be quite fond of playing the age card and the veteran card with me as a strawman to shut me up...yeah, I'm young, and as a conscientious objector I plan on never serving in the military, but that doesn't invalidate my opinions. Also, believe me, nobody hates the biased media more than I do, and I currently don't obtain my views and opinions from it. Here in Canada, in fact, our media regularly shows its support for the war in Afghanistan, something that irks me to no end.

I've never violently secured my freedoms, no, and I don't plan on doing so--I keep informed and I write transgressional poetry, trying to maintain my freedom of mind by keeping my head above the propaganda waters. I could easily ask you condescendingly how many hours you've spent studying the ideas of the great philosophers, but I prefer to argue without degrading "come talk to me" ultimatums.

If it is indeed womens' rights that you believe in fiercely enough to justify carnage and destruction, then we should invade Saudi Arabia at once--oh, but they're economically more cooperative, so you won't hear any talk of that anytime soon. At least half of the countries in Africa could use a good pro-human rights bloody invasion too...where is the line drawn? I propose drawing it at not using violence as an engine of social change.

[FreshNugz]

In Nam, little kids would walk up to soldiers, drop a live grenade at their feet and run.... I am surprised they are not having that prob in Iraq, or having probs with sappers either. I guess they are having enough problems with IEDs and car bombs. vigilance means you keep on living, indiference and/or letting your guard down can cost you and your fellow brothers in arms their lives. but they don't show those kinds of things in the media. They only show what they can sensationalize.

Yes I am a Viet nam era vet, and I still remember.

Look, I know you probably hate me for the views I hold, but I think we can look through that.
I realize that was a part of the war in Vietnam. And I thought about that as I posted, I really did. But we're referring to a particular situation here, about a video where marines are having fun with a couple of kids. It's one actual piece of possibly positive news in that land of hell..and for someone to talk about shooting them in the situation we're referring to is sickening. Child VietCong is a complete other story, and I sympathize with soldiers who were faced with a decision like that one. I know you don't think so, but I do.
This has turned into a wider discussion on the morality complex(if any) of war. That's a whole other debate, first off. And second, wars are different. I feel differently about particular ones than I do about this current one, or I do about Vietnam.
I regret that I seem to have offended you, and your service for your country. I didn't intend it, please forgive it.
Keep on keepin' on.

[GrinKyle]

I love how Mississippi Steve brought up Vietnam... and how children would drop grenades and run....

I would to, If i was a child of that era, living in Vietnam, I would have ALSO tried to kill you Steve, with whatever I had. You know why?

CAUSE YOU INVADED MY HOMELAND.

But keep combating that communism, or fascism, or is it socialism now? I forgot, it changes every 15 years, its hard to keep up.

***
Obviously people FOR the Iraq war, are reliving the Vietnam era over again, and they never were taught to learn from the history books.

in 30 years, our grandchildren will be taught in school how much of a failure and wrong circumstances we got ourselves into this war, and how our fear and policies made it worse.

too bad history is repeating itself, its a shame nobody learned. At least the people that have the power to act didn't.

But I want Steve to come back here and clarify if he thinks Vietnam was a just(sp?) war. I interpreted that he thinks it was.

[Mississippi Steve]

***
Obviously people FOR the Iraq war, are reliving the Vietnam era over again, and they never were taught to learn from the history books.

in 30 years, our grandchildren will be taught in school how much of a failure and wrong circumstances we got ourselves into this war, and how our fear and policies made it worse.

too bad history is repeating itself, its a shame nobody learned. At least the people that have the power to act didn't.

But I want Steve to come back here and clarify if he thinks Vietnam was a just(sp?) war. I interpreted that he thinks it was.

I never said that Viet Nam was just.... but you can believe what you want.

[the image reaper]

'Nam Vets ? ... I got your back, brothers :thumbsup:

[GrinKyle]

Thank you for coming back and responding, and clearing it up. I was just wondering myself.

Like i said it was my interpretations that you did, and now I know you didn't. I'll believe what you tell me, until then, I had to make up my own mind.

[MadSativa]

It's kinda sick that you'd blast little kids away. Actually its not kinda...its completely fucked.

War is fucked im not saying its right but live or die deal with it, think of being in those shoes. and splitting kinds in half is wrong, but in a hellish situation, worst things can happen


Cause that will sure help them stop chanting "Death to America".

I dont care what they chant just dont do it on my lawn, this isnt highschool, not everyone is gonna like you.


Im so worried that people actually think like this!!!

Some religouse people belive that aliens are gonna take them home someday. Some religouse people belive that all Americans are the devil, and that doesnt bother you?


Again...PUT YOURSELF IN THEIR SHOES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How is that so damn difficult to get?

again, you are facing an advisary that uses men women and children, to string your buddies corpes all around the desert. I am glad I am not their but it does not mean I dont think about my friends who are their.


Picture an invading force here...then picture your kid being shot and killed by them. And what would you do?

I dont have to picture it I am an American and I use my right to bear arms (a big resone no one invades here), doesnt mean we dont have to worry about gangs or other interior problems. All the same if I had a kid I assur you getting into any kind of fight with him or her would not be a good idea, we teach our own.


how hard is it for people to pull their head out of their ass(or their ipod, or their 'bachelor' episode, or whatever other kind of pitiful propoganda/entertainment you are partaking in) and realize that even though there is a good aspect to this mission...the way we are going about it is wrong. Plain and simple.

Mission, what the hell are you talking about? You actualy bought into all that Bush crap. We dont controlle our government wake up


All you hawks should just consider yourself lucky we aren't facing an invasion. Or that we don't speak chinese or russian, and we're not on the shitty end of the power pyramid. All's well and good when you're the one firing, isn't it....
Disgusting.
I dont think you get it, its being fired at that gets you to think like this, once you are in a situation like that you do what it takes to get out of it and then never get in that situation again. much easier said than done
most of the time I dont see my self at the shit end of the pyramid, but I definitly have never been at the top of the power pyramid. And I see your point like I am glad we are all not in slave camps and talking German. And I am glad we are not facing an invasion, but luck has little to do with it.

[overgrowthegovt]

MadSativa, you mention how in a hellish situation there are worse things than children getting split in half....like what? I can't think of anything worse than the brutal death of children, which, thanks to the war and the patriots who support it, is all too common.

Some religious people believe all Muslims are the devil and that the whole Middle East should be nuked, and that doesn't bother you? If the status quo were reversed, and it was the Middle East that exerted a huge and undue influence over North America and maintained a vice grip on its resources, I can guarantee there would be some kind of Christian equivalent of the Al-Qa'aeda. Those Focus on the Family psychos are already scary enough as it is---if the Middle East imperialistically controlled North America, they'd be blowing shit up. I hate it when Christians act morally superior to Muslims just because of the violence associated with Islam...violence which is the result of harsh circumstances. And the U.S. government has caused more death than the Taliban ever could. But that's alright....it's all for "freedom."

[apocolips31]

Under certain circumstances huh? Answer me this then. Whose holy book tells them to kill all the non-believers?

[FreshNugz]

Both holy books say that.
That's why religion is crap. We can't all be right...but we all think we are...then kill in the name of it.

This world is ugly.

[FreshNugz]

War is fucked im not saying its right but live or die deal with it, think of being in those shoes. and splitting kinds in half is wrong, but in a hellish situation, worst things can happen

I dont care what they chant just dont do it on my lawn, this isnt highschool, not everyone is gonna like you.

Some religouse people belive that aliens are gonna take them home someday. Some religouse people belive that all Americans are the devil, and that doesnt bother you?

again, you are facing an advisary that uses men women and children, to string your buddies corpes all around the desert. I am glad I am not their but it does not mean I dont think about my friends who are their.

I dont have to picture it I am an American and I use my right to bear arms (a big resone no one invades here), doesnt mean we dont have to worry about gangs or other interior problems. All the same if I had a kid I assur you getting into any kind of fight with him or her would not be a good idea, we teach our own.

Mission, what the hell are you talking about? You actualy bought into all that Bush crap. We dont controlle our government wake up

I dont think you get it, its being fired at that gets you to think like this, once you are in a situation like that you do what it takes to get out of it and then never get in that situation again. much easier said than done
most of the time I dont see my self at the shit end of the pyramid, but I definitly have never been at the top of the power pyramid. And I see your point like I am glad we are all not in slave camps and talking German. And I am glad we are not facing an invasion, but luck has little to do with it.

1. I am aware bad things happen in wars. Which is why we shouldn't start them half way across the world in order to "bring freedom" to people. Give me a fucking break. What if they wanted to "bring communism" to you..cause they decided its the way to live. Now there would be a use for our army! In case you aren't getting my point...armies are for invasions of the homeland...not to be shipped to a desert, or jungle, or wherever to fight those people. Before all you WW2 students point out that this war was overseas, it had a purpose in that the Nazi's sought world domination.
As a veteran, i'm curious to know what you think here. Do you think an army is for more than defending the homeland?
2. The point I was making with the chanting 'death to america' was that if we continue to act foolishly, murdering civilians wherever because they aren't worth a damn, and they are nothing but the enemy...it will do much to increase hatred and never win the "hearts and minds" so to speak.
3.Can't argue on the crazy religious people.
4. You shouldn't be there...neither should your friends. Face it this isn't a war which should be happening. We can however agree to disagree on that since I don't think you're understanding the point. Point being a war waged against people in their homeland will cause a poignant reaction, most times nationalist sentiment, and fighting invaders is enough to win.
Look at all the wars where that has prevailed, despite the guns bombs and tanks.
5. Your right to bear arms is not something which prevents the invasion of America. Your superpower status, and first rate military capability..that is a reason. Who in their right mind would even think of it, knowing they'd be blown away. But your right to bear arms is not even important here.
You have that to overthrow the government should the union's become perverted. ie. too much fed. power overruling the states, just one example which is now a reality. Using your right to bear arms for its actual purpose is something that I can't believe hasn't happened yet given the outrageous straying from the constitution your country has done.
AND
6. Trust me I understand what you're saying. When you're there, they are enemies, not people. They killed your friends and brothers in uniform. I GOT IT. You sir, are missing my point. We shouldn't be in that situation. At all. The last "just war" I can think of was WW2. Things like Afghanistan should be avoided...look where they get us. And Vietnam. Waging war on foreign peoples in order to achieve some goal which is to benefit the United States...is completely wrong. So you shouldn't be in that position, thinking of killing their children. Comprehend??

[Rusty Trichome]

Yeah, I love how the solution is "nuke".....honestly people!!!!!!
That's sickening. Oh it's not working, so we should nuke it!

How the hell would you feel if someone sprung a nuclear weapon on you? The inability of people to see this from a perspective other than their own immediate one is disgusting.
Would you rather be struck with a cluster bomb, or perhaps a molotov cocktail from one of your anarchist friends...?
The only difference is the capability of the resultant explosion.




In fact, none of these terrorist organizations want to destroy the World because if they did that then they wouldn't have anyone to rule over. When it really comes down to it, all nations want power and that includes us. The whole international game since the beginning of time has been taking over the World and Al Queda is the last one on the list to be capable of such a thing. My money's on either China, Russia, or the U.S and E.U, not with a bunch of unpopular organizations that has to use force to gain participants.

But don't let this statement fool you. I'm not a sympathizer.
You failed to mention the 12th Imam theology. The coming of the 12th Imam is supposeldy going to happen just prior to the end of the world, which is one of the main reasons sunnis and shiites are bent on western destruction. (hastening the end is their goal) 12th Imam (http://www.allaboutpopularissues.org/12th-imam.htm)


I thought that was sarcasm when I first read it. That is how dumb you sound.
Gee. That's how I feel about your moronic statements.



I would to, If i was a child of that era, living in Vietnam, I would have ALSO tried to kill you Steve, with whatever I had. You know why?

CAUSE YOU INVADED MY HOMELAND.

I interpreted that he thinks it was.
Kinda funny. This fucked-up, USA is at fault, twisted reasonoing you state here, is the same thing by extention. Some dickwads came over, and dropped some grenades (passenger airplanes) at our feet. Only difference, our kids hopped a flight, went to their country, and payed-back the favor. There has not been another grenade dropped on our shores, since. But guranteed, were I in New York that day, and the grenades had been dropped at my feet by these 'children' of allah...I'd have blown their young fucking heads off...just like you said you'd do to Steve.


Under certain circumstances huh? Answer me this then. Whose holy book tells them to kill all the non-believers?
According to the radical muslims, the Koran says it's a religous imparative.



That's why religion is crap. This world is ugly.
Hmmm...from where I stand, it's not the religion that's crap...it's the backasswards views of those that pretend to understand it, that's crap.
With God, the world is beautiful. Without God, the world is ugly.

[apocolips31]

Both holy books say that.
That's why religion is crap. We can't all be right...but we all think we are...then kill in the name of it.

This world is ugly.

What you are referring to in the book of Luke is an analogy not a literal meaning like in the Koran.

[MadSativa]

6. Trust me I understand what you're saying. When you're there, they are enemies, not people. We shouldn't be in that situation.

Enemies are people other wise we would be missleading and delusioning our selves. We should never be in a situation, but we always are. You talk like we have a choice of where our Army goes, or a choice of when and who we fight, but we dont we just fight. As far as my opinion on what the Army is for, dont matter my opinion dont matter.

My favorite words I heard coming out of a guy in the Army was.......we build bridges and churches, so the Marines can come and blow them up.

My point is never question your men and women in the military, they will never question you so show them the same respect. Now those in charge question em, batter em, hell hate em but what ever it is make them see your point, because so far I have yet to see the people in charge take charge.

[overgrowthegovt]

Under certain circumstances huh? Answer me this then. Whose holy book tells them to kill all the non-believers?

Whose holy book tells them to kill all the homosexuals, and outlines rules on the proper management of slaves? The Bible's one of the more repugnant texts ever penned.

[apocolips31]

More just actions happen in name of Christianity then unjust.

[GrinKyle]

Kinda funny. This fucked-up, USA is at fault, twisted reasonoing you state here, is the same thing by extention. Some dickwads came over, and dropped some grenades (passenger airplanes) at our feet. Only difference, our kids hopped a flight, went to their country, and payed-back the favor. There has not been another grenade dropped on our shores, since. But guranteed, were I in New York that day, and the grenades had been dropped at my feet by these 'children' of allah...I'd have blown their young fucking heads off...just like you said you'd do to Steve.


You are going to have to re type this, I have no idea what you are talking about or what point you were trying to make. Ill wait....

[overgrowthegovt]

More just actions happen in name of Christianity then unjust.

The propagandists have done their job well. Every sexually expressive young lady who gets branded a whore, every gay forced to live in shame, every Islamic civilian killed for the protection of Christian nations, every STD acquired due to abstinence-only sex education, every struggling family that has to pay their tithe, every frustrated person who can't act on the desire due to the underlying abhorration of pleasure that permeates our society....this whole Judeo-Christian ethic has gone on long enough. As an obsolete form of oppression, it has to go.

I'm still waiting for someone to acknowledge my point about how if the status quo were reversed, we'd be seeing a Christian Al-Qu'aeda equivalent. My point is that both Christianity and Islam are relatively okay in moderation but extremely dangerous if you get fundamentalism into play, and oppression of one's sphere of the world inevitably leads to violent fundamentalism. Fundamentalist Christianity would be much more violent and dangerous if they didn't have the cushiest way of life in the world, free to pillage the world.

[FreshNugz]

Sorry I sparked some religious nerves. You're entitled to your beliefs, and I'm entitled to not believe in that. Fair and simple. To be honest I just am one of those people who needs to see to believe, thats my problem with religion.

But lets not point fingers at whose religion has killed more people. Many of them are non-accepting of other doctrines...exclusive.
And for whoever thinks nobody was killed in the name of Catholicism, don't forget the crusades. :cool:

[overgrowthegovt]

I wasn't trying to point any fingers, really--it was just that someone was claiming that Christianity was good and Islam was bad, and I was trying to show that that's not inherently the case.

You need empiricle evidence for things, eh? I'm not like that at all--very spiritual guy, just not in any organized way. Bit of a pantheist, maybe.

And yes, let's not forget the crusades...what do you think the war on terror is? A new crusade with bigger bombs.

[Rusty Trichome]

You are going to have to re type this, I have no idea what you are talking about or what point you were trying to make. Ill wait....

Perhaps you should read it slower. :jointsmile:

[FreshNugz]

I wasn't trying to point any fingers, really--it was just that someone was claiming that Christianity was good and Islam was bad, and I was trying to show that that's not inherently the case.

You need empiricle evidence for things, eh? I'm not like that at all--very spiritual guy, just not in any organized way. Bit of a pantheist, maybe.

And yes, let's not forget the crusades...what do you think the war on terror is? A new crusade with bigger bombs.

To be honest my religion comments were aimed at those bickering over whose religion is better....a very other large problem i have with it.
I'm accepting of your spirituality, and glad you can make the distinction between your own spirituality and organized religion, where the problems happen..hahaha
I can't remember the name of what I am..there's a name for it...for someone who refuses to believe any of the options/organized religions. I know there is something there, i just refuse to label it God or Allah or Mohamed or whomever...cause to be honest thats ignorant...cause I don't know what it is. And people who run around shoving their god down the throat of others really piss me right off. Cause they don't know any more than anyone else..they just think they do.
But I am smart enough to know that the intricate nature of this world shows us that there is something larger up there. Its all the stories and details of these gods that are angering. I believe I'm entitled to have my own vision of what it is, and shouldn't be told i'll burn in hell for believing in something other than beatitudes.

Picture god as a large weed plant. Maybe then there won't be killing in the name of religion. Maybe ..we could all get along?? SHOCKER!!!

By the way Rusty, I like our dialogue. No matter what arguments I throw at you, you'd kick my ass in the greenhouse. I know this :thumbsup:

[Rusty Trichome]

By the way Rusty, I like our dialogue. No matter what arguments I throw at you, you'd kick my ass in the greenhouse. I know this :thumbsup:
Lol...Just speaking my mind, trying to be unambiguous and have my conservative views not be twisted by peer pressure, fanatical teachings from a failed education system, or media bias. I've been around, I've seen a few things, I've served in the military, and I've seen the moral ineptitude spread thru our kids like wildfire, with it's roots in our educators wet dreams. Where else but America can an admitted terrorist, (Ayres) whose own girlfriend was killed by one of his bombs...be a 'respected' educator in Chicago, whose anti-government, anti-authority views are the educational standard set in stone on both coasts?
Hmmm...a tangent. <sigh> Bummer. :jointsmile:

Anyway, rarely do I avoid good discourse, but cut-n-paste laziness and dishonest ineptitude tends to piss me off. Propoganda might have it's place, but homey don't play that game, lol.

Ya get as old as I am...it's easier to distinguish good technique from bad technique, plus I've got decades experience with lawns, flower and herb gardens and houseplants. Still learning, but the transition to cannabis was inevitable and smooth, lol. But thanks. :thumbsup:

[LolaGal]

If I ruled the world, I would fix it like this:

1) Cut off all foreign economic aid...if we're broke, let em fend for themselves.

2) Withdraw all US troops from places we don't just take over and be done with it...(Korea for example)

3) Take over Cuba...(bring back cool vacation spot)

4) Take all money from #1, and spend it on buying up all the world's rain forests. This makes US world superpower, once we own all the oxygen supplies...lol

5) Cut off all trade with China, Japan. This will force US consumers to buy US products (They don't let US sell there freely)

6) Spend all the leftover money on researching rain forests for cancer cures, etc. (Now US can cure all diseases, making US superpower)

7) Now that #5 established, US has jobs making consumer products.

8) Once cutting off all foreign economic aid, & withdrawing all US troops, should be a lot of money for universal healthcare.

9) Now I've eliminated poverty in America with #5, #6, and #7.

10) Start underwater research so we have better maps of the planet. (We have better maps of Mars, than Earth's oceans)

11) Now that US controls rain forests, Cuba, and all cool vacation spots, and has destroyed China's & Japan's economy with trade embargos, US currency sound, economic outlook great, US sits back and lets Middle East fend for themselves......I'm bored with all this fighting, US is not world's police, and I'm tired of paying for all this crap.


I tend to be of Monroe Doctrine leanings.....:D

[overgrowthegovt]

Ah yes, the Monroe Doctrine...one of the more oppressive and fucked-up things ever passed. The world order you described is one of the scariest things I've ever imagined....a world where the U.S. controls everything, including oxygen, and has crippled other nations' economies? What a nightmare. Let's hope LolaGal never rules the world (although I like your idea about leaving the Middle East alone...the rest of it is fucked).

Rusty...I hope education standards become much more anti-government and anti-authoritarian, and fast. Students are still taught that the government's values are sound even if its actions are sometimes questionable, and that duty and obedience are virtues. I try not to let my near-radical views get twisted by peer pressure, fanatical teachings of a failed education system, or a media bias.

FreshNugz...I feel your spirituality, brother. Whatever's out there/up there/whatever, any reasonable mind can guarantee that no doctrinaire faith has come anywhere remotely close to figuring it out, despite their arrogant claims.

[FreshNugz]

Overgrow,
The Monroe doctrine was actually not pro world intervention. The Truman doctrine was. What was referred to as the Monroe Doctrine was revealed in Monroe's 1823 Annual Message to Congress.

"Monroe's declaration underlined the United States' determination not to act in world affairs as a satellite of Britain."

and

"that the United States should not interfere with already established European colonies in the Western Hemisphere."

Source: Nation of Nations: A Narrative History of the American Republic. 5th Ed. Montreal:Mcgraw Hill. 2005.

It was simply a differentiation of actions by Britain and America, similar to ours in Canada from Britain. In 1982.


Rusty, I'm unsure whether or not you're saying that I didn't present good discourse. But none the less, glad you accepted my compliment about your gardening. hah

[overgrowthegovt]

Overgrow,
The Monroe doctrine was actually not pro world intervention. The Truman doctrine was. What was referred to as the Monroe Doctrine was revealed in Monroe's 1823 Annual Message to Congress.

"Monroe's declaration underlined the United States' determination not to act in world affairs as a satellite of Britain."

and

"that the United States should not interfere with already established European colonies in the Western Hemisphere."

Source: Nation of Nations: A Narrative History of the American Republic. 5th Ed. Montreal:Mcgraw Hill. 2005.

It was simply a differentiation of actions by Britain and America, similar to ours in Canada from Britain. In 1982.


Rusty, I'm unsure whether or not you're saying that I didn't present good discourse. But none the less, glad you accepted my compliment about your gardening. hah

The Monroe Doctrine (yes, 1823) also declared that the U.S. wouldn't tolerate the imposition of any new rule by a European power over any peoples of the Americas--Britain and France and the Dutch and so forth would get to keep what they had (Britain was so much more powerful than the U.S. at this point that this went without saying), but Spain would not be permitted to reclaim any of its former New World territory, and no power could try to expand. This was America declaring its turf, claiming its sphere of influence and power, much like the Soviets with the Eastern bloc or WWII Japan with East Asia.

Since the Monroe Doctrine, countless armed interventions have been carried out in the Western hemisphere, involving annexing new territory, setting up puppets and banana republics, getting their claws in Latin American nations' economies, etc. You're right about the Truman Doctrine being pro world intervention...it expanded the Monroe Doctrine's territory to include the entire planet. It tends to be the common belief that the U.S. was noninterventionist under WWII, but it wasn't, it was just more covert beforehand and didn't openly wage wars (with a few exceptions: Spanish-American, for example).

[DTRave420]

Although I've been covered medically for the past 20 years through my union,millions of hard working Americans are not covered...The price of a college education also sux...
I'm pretty sure we'll never see it in our lifetimes and it probably will never come to be,but it would be nice to have socialized medical and education choices as they have in Canada and England...

[Mississippi Steve]

Perhaps you should read it slower. :jointsmile:

I understood it the first time, thanx. There are a few of us on here that have lived history, while others here can only read about it.

[painretreat]

When speaking of war I have an extra pause and think of all my friends I lost by death in Viet Nam.

This war, Bush admitted, was a result of 'bad intell' No disfunction in D.C. though, they'll finish what we started, one way or another-even if we pull out. we'll be back.

Should we do as suggested and bomb from one side of the hills throughout, we would have kept on thru Pakistan and Iraq, plus a few others on the way. Like chasing ants in the house with Raid.

Religion and war seem to be related, whether we want it to be or not.

I am not horrified my tax dollars buy death! Ultimately, that is the goal of life! What horrifies me is: Paying my taxes and not having my civil rights!! As a female causcasion--I am sure that puts me at the brown end of the stick.

I check my property taxes and from one year 2006 (when things weren't too bad yet) to now and it is up $100. Seems unfair, as everything is so high and wages, disability, SS and other benefits of the right to pay have gone to the wayside. When taxpayers can file bankruptcy on taxes is the day the Gov't will listen! Why, cause they will have to woo us to love our Gov't to want to pay for all the services, etc. we directly feel the effect of. And when my lazy assed old next door neighbor got up 20 min earlier in the AM to drive his brand new truck to take his 'poor' children to school to get fed--well, made me sick! they got free Bfst, lunch and after school snacks! Those kids were fat! Why, they came home to go out to eat every night!!

Our taxes buy illness, breeds idiots and the cream of the crop is here, hiding because we want our right to a medication that should and could grow in the wild! Now, don't get me wrong, I am not saying the cream of the crop of illness and idiots are here, quite the opposite!

We can worry ourselves to death worried about innocent lives being lost at war and some will and have! Unfortunately, we still have to pay our tax and it is a privilege to live in a world that is has freedom to express what this is.
A good thread and certainly enlightening.

If I were 19, I would like all 19 yr. old to be worried about it. But, most are not, they are worried of how to get the next free download to an ipod or MP3 or whatever those things are. And at my age, I have seen enough to know, 'change' simply means from one person to the next with hope they can make a difference and find; they need to figure out how to 'work' the system in order to fix it!

Too bad we can't say, 'hey, time-out!' Re-structure and try to keep our $ at home and mind our own business. Get our civil rights first and then fight for everyone else's. And toss the Religion out of the Gov't.!

I feared SS would not be here for me when I was 20 and it will remain that way. Until . ... same old problem, just a different day! p/r :wtf:

[overgrowthegovt]

My main issue, I suppose, is that the U.S. government can afford to spend 500 billion dollars a year on the military and additional billions on persecuting weed...but there isn't any money to provide health care services or to do something, anything, about the appallingly ubiquitous poverty and economic inequality. Tax dollars could go towards a world of good, but instead it goes towards bombs, anti-drug propaganda, and favours for fat and greedy CEOs. And what's with churches being tax-free?....taxing the living hell out of them would provide a shitload of revenue.

Yes, religion and war are related, hence the faith-based delusions of moral superiority on both sides. Back to taxing churches...if they had to pay for the war, they might stop yelling for it so loudly.

As a conscientious objector, I should have the right to demand that not one penny of my taxes go towards the military, but apparently personal ideals and convictions do not matter to a government that takes an individual's income and does with it what they please. That would be like taking a Palestinian refugee's tax dollars and spending it on Israeli aid. Total lack of respect.

[MadSativa]

My favorite words I heard coming out of a guy in the Army was.......we build bridges and churches, so the Marines can come and blow them up.


just had to clarify thats not entirly true, I have heard great words from men and women in the US ARMY.
those words were out of an engineers mouth and he had every right to be pissed off.

[Doobee]

You the Canadian living in a socialized nation that censors the facts and truths and who's government dictates what you can say about what and who and whom... has what to say?:mad:

By way of your totally slanted, pathetically parroted moveon.org dump of liberalism....you're either drinking waaaaay too much liberal/humanist KoolAid...

Or your bud has been peeeeeded and stepped on.

Making a moral equivalent of Islamic terrorists to the USA and ''the West'' is pure and willful stupidity at its worse.

Ohhhh.....your " vastly more intelligent than any of my grandparents, so age is really only the most rudimentary guideline"
is soooooo clueless of you.
Telling as well.



It is not "narrow-minded" to be aware of the fact that the Western world wages war for its own self-serving agendas and feeds the public shameless propaganda about "defending our freedom" and so forth. Defending the oppressive global status quo, more like.

All the U.S. or Canadian military personnel do is waste billions of dollars on killing people halfway across the world so Haliburton can get a nice juicy contract over there, so it irritates me to no end that their undeserved salaries will be coming out of our pockets (I "support the troops" by advocating that they be brought back home in one piece, before it's too late).

As for 9/11, it was of course a horrendous spectacle, but it has been argued by some (notably Ward Churchill, who was basically tarred and feathered after that) as the natural and inevitable response to decades of raping the Middle East. The deaths in the two towers are nothing compared to the unspeakably evil carnage wrought over there. I mean, seriously, the U.S. initiates countless explosions and incidents of civilian death over there, and then acts shocked and appalledwhen it gets handed back to them.

Mississippi Steve, I acknowledge you as my senior but ask that my views (based upon reading and worldly knowledge) not be automatically dismissed simply on account of my youth. I'm vastly more intelligent than any of my grandparents, so age is really only the most rudimentary guideline.

[Mississippi Steve]

Mississippi Steve, I acknowledge you as my senior but ask that my views (based upon reading and worldly knowledge) not be automatically dismissed simply on account of my youth. I'm vastly more intelligent than any of my grandparents, so age is really only the most rudimentary guideline.


Most all of us have vastly more education than our grandparents. Its not so much age, but lifes experiences that count.
But being as your a conciencious objector an all......

[the image reaper]

Steve, remember, we're trying to reason with 'Jodie' :D

[Rusty Trichome]

...but it would be nice to have socialized medical and education choices as they have in Canada and England... Choices...? What medical choices do the Canadians and British have, and how is it being paid for? Are there any British or Canadians out there happy with their socialized medical programs? Is it the panacea everyone (liberal Americans) keep screaming about?

As far as the socialized educational system...we've been there for twenty years, and it is obviously skewed twords liberal indoctrination. Thank god we still have home schooling, military schools and faith-based learning centers, otherwise our young would learn nothing outside the facist 'progressive liberal' realm.

[Breukelen advocaat]

Choices...? What medical choices do the Canadians and British have, and how is it being paid for?

I believe that they have the choices of paying for their own private health care insurance, or using the government's program that everyone is entitled to. It may not be perfect, but it seems a lot better than being without any health care due to unemployment or, in many cases, working at jobs that provide no health insurance and not being able to afford to buy it......and at the same time paying taxes to support all kinds of coporate and public welfare programs to benefit people who are receiving health insurance. It's about time that everybody has one thing, another or both - because our current system simply does not work for 47 million people who did not have coverage in 2007.

[Dutch Pimp]

Steve, remember, we're trying to reason with 'Jodie' :D
"jodie was there when you.. Left...you're... Right"

[the image reaper]

you're right, what the fuck, over ? ... don't mean nuthin' ;)

[painretreat]

Canada and health care? Not that it has a lot to do with this, other than the gentleman that started the thread seems to be from Canada or is Canadian--we are pretty much in the same boat.

Last year I spent the winter in AZ. More Canadians there than US Citizens! Why? Escape the winter. Most were selling all their nice toys and RV's because their medical insurance in Canada will be to expensive the next year (as it increase's each year with age of person) to afford to come down here for an escape-visit. Our Medicare is getting a bit similar and we can stay here to experience it! Anyone notice?

If they (Canadians) leave the country after a certain age, they Personally PAY for their health insurance. And when you have arthritis, etc. you need a warm climate. I was shocked at how many thousands a month one fellow was paying to be here 4-6mos. more than most retirement incomes here or overpriced house payments, each of them were paying to way too much to keep health insurance in Canada! If we had to do it, some would never leave our country when we aged. Do they fly all over the world for health care?

Apache Junction, Wickenburg area and everything in between-lots of Canadians. If they can afford that payment they can most likely afford to pay for medical care here. You can bet, if they can't, our system has a loophole to stabilize them and jet them back to Canada if possible, or Canada does pay. Can't do that with the Southern Borders! And I didn't notice them running to Mexico for Medical care. At least they pay their way and boost our economy instead of stressing the system!

I/R, D/P-you lost me with Jodie and Steve, did I miss something? Surely, no one can miss that avatar D/P!!! You know, it has to be overloading my PC, took 45 minutes to get on line today! lol !! Is that the one Dave jumps in the forum, just to see? He has mentioned how much he loves it, anyone know if he has seen it yet??? Pretty cool (kinda makes my chest hurt after awhile-lol). Now, you got any ball busting bouncing baskets? For self taught PC skills, you really know your way around a PC. Guess, I need to stop reading here and learn how to do that fancy stuff too! Well, I'm busy right now, edumakating meself in the gro logs and books. Sure, I should be learning this PC, but I hope to get so much couchlock all I do is look at the animations!

Age and wisdom isn't something you can compare to education; each are different. We can choose to disagree, but lets let the kids play. They will be wiping our diapers one day, I sure hope I don't live to be that old though. When I was 19 I thought 29 was pretty old. It is all relative. And relativity to the thread is questionable. If he is paying tax $ for death, it doesn't matter where he comes from. Con. Objector--don't we send them to war anyway in the U.S.A.--like the chaplains helper or the Chaplain?? pr much respect to our vets!

[overgrowthegovt]

Our health care system is of course inefficient and far from perfect, but we pay a fraction per month of what Americans pay for insurance, and everybody gets treated regardless of their socio-economic status. Some guy won't break his leg and be out of luck because he's homeless.

Mississippi Steve..."experience teaches only the teachable." The elderly are very wise if they're open-minded and deep-thinking individuals...if not, they're just your average propaganda-suspectible Joe, but exercising a lot more caution. They also tend to believe, like you, that age forms an automatic hierarchy. Rimbaud wrote all of his genius transgressional poetry before he was 21, even though plenty of 70-year-old bourgeois pillars thought they were right and he was wrong.

Rusty...you'd rather children were indoctrinated by their presupposition-blinded parents, the diabolical military, or, worst of all, fucking FAITH-BASED organizations? Woe betide the products of that education. Get over yourself and realize that America is not a liberal country, not even close...just not nearly fascist enough for your reactionary standards.

Doobee...you seem to be insulting my intelligence, which I won't stand for. My grandparents are simple people who lack worldly knowledge and the capacity for free thought...I know them, not you, so keep your mouth shut. The fact that you automatically relegate me to a lower status based on age and character descriptions of people I know is "telling". My views are originally phrased and not "pathetically parroted." I can and will make moral comparisons between Islamic terrorists and Western warmongers, and your automatic dismissal of such comparisons based on the kneejerk moral superiority you've been brought up on is "pure and willful stupidity at its worst."

No, I haven't been drinking too much liberal/humanist KoolAid...perhaps you've been drinking too much nationalistic/security-obsessed/xenophobic/army-loving/nod-in-approval-as-civilians-slowly-bleed-to-death brandy.

To everybody, I must state that in no way are my ideas derived from or influenced by the fucking media! Disagree with somebody's views and they always hand you the "liberal media" line, that you must be anti-war or whatever because of a nation-wide liberal conspiracy to undermine free-thinking conservatism. The reality is that the media is much more hospitable to corporate agendas than it is to the radical dissidents. But I'm not here to discredit anybody's views on the grounds that it must be that damned media...I'll give you all the respect of assuming you form your ideas with your own mind, which is what I expect in return.

[GrinKyle]

OGG you won't get anywhere with them. I got -rep because someone still thinks that invading Vietnam killing men, woman, and children was the right thing to do. Calling me "dumb and disrespectfull", when I've steered absolutely from it.

"Kinda funny. This fucked-up, USA is at fault, twisted reasonoing you state here, is the same thing by extention. Some dickwads came over, and dropped some grenades (passenger airplanes) at our feet. Only difference, our kids hopped a flight, went to their country, and payed-back the favor. There has not been another grenade dropped on our shores, since. But guranteed, were I in New York that day, and the grenades had been dropped at my feet by these 'children' of allah...I'd have blown their young fucking heads off...just like you said you'd do to Steve."


Steve is a vet of Vietnam (Right?), how is that even linked to Iraq and New York, and Allah? This is why you're wording doesn't make sense to me.

I was talking about Steve talking about children in VIETNAM, dropping grenades at his feet.... and I said I would do the same thing... because HE(Steve) invaded my(Vietnamese) homeland, for reasons to combat communism(Fact), thus trying to force our western policies(Democracy) on countries half a globe away. Just cause Steve was in Vietnam, doesn't mean the war was Right, or just, or needed. This also doesn't make me "HATE Vets" cause I disagree with a war. The war in Vietnam was UN-WINNABLE... THUS we LOST it.. we lost lives, we lost money, and we lost respect.

Now to the Iraq war. Like I said earlier, how history repeats it self, just like I am. How we(USA) have NOT learned from history and its repeating itself in Iraq. The fact of the matter is... the MAJORITY of the country you live in, disagree with the Iraq war and want us to pull out. The current president got voted in(landslide), running on that ticket. Whether he does it or not, is up to the goonies in DC.

I also wonder why the last president was so popular, he did everything right, and left the white house in better condition then he entered. He must have done a great job the last 8 years to earn one of the highest approval ratings any president has had since record began.

[Rusty Trichome]

Rusty...you'd rather children were indoctrinated by their presupposition-blinded parents, the diabolical military, or, worst of all, fucking FAITH-BASED organizations? Damn straight. It's much better than what's being dished-up right now. But since I feel nothing but pity for those that have been indoctrinated in the art of hatred and facist-leaning liberal revisionists, I'll forgive your ignorance and blind hate for that which you obviously don't understand. Your prejudice is your loss...not ours. :jointsmile:

[Dutch Pimp]

I/R, D/P-you lost me with Jodie and Steve, did I miss something?

it's nothing ...PR

just an old soldier's marching song...about a guy named 'Jodie'...it's designed to keep you in step..long story....:D

I think I may have to drop the 'Skink' memorial avatar ...soon

[Rusty Trichome]

"Kinda funny. This fucked-up, USA is at fault, twisted reasonoing you state here, is the same thing by extention. Some dickwads came over, and dropped some grenades (passenger airplanes) at our feet. Only difference, our kids hopped a flight, went to their country, and payed-back the favor. There has not been another grenade dropped on our shores, since. But guranteed, were I in New York that day, and the grenades had been dropped at my feet by these 'children' of allah...I'd have blown their young fucking heads off...just like you said you'd do to Steve."

I was talking about Steve talking about children in VIETNAM, dropping grenades at his feet.... and I said I would do the same thing... because HE(Steve) invaded my(Vietnamese) homeland, for reasons to combat communism(Fact), thus trying to force our western policies(Democracy) on countries half a globe away. Just cause Steve was in Vietnam, doesn't mean the war was Right, or just, or needed. This also doesn't make me "HATE Vets" cause I disagree with a war. The war in Vietnam was UN-WINNABLE... THUS we LOST it.. we lost lives, we lost money, and we lost respect.
Bummer the comparitave allegory escaped you.
Not to single you out, but since most progressives bash the values our fighters enlist and fight for, you get lumped into this category. They bash the honor and integrity of everything that we service members hold dear, as if it were the policies of the soldiers that get us in the position all countries eventually find themselves in...which is being forced to protect values, resources, allies and borders. If the threat of communism was so benign, then where did all those nukes come from on both sides? Political, social and corporate espoionage and sabotage was very prevalent, chunks of Europe were being 'absorbed' by the USSR, an arms race dominated the economies, and people were dying as a direct result.
Also, all the talk of Vietnam, but none for the geo-political enviornment leading-up to the war? No talk of the "Korean conflict"? Again...progressives miss half the story in a misinformed attempt to lay blame on the feet of that big, bad America. Taken in the context of the (then) recent world conflict with Hitler and Mussolini, the 1940 Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies (indonesia) after the oil embargo...a moral decision was made to assist the UN in stabilizing the region with the addition of troops. History can be so boring. But it sure helps one to know your history, if making moral judgements regarding the governments and soldiers involved.


Now to the Iraq war. Like I said earlier, how history repeats it self, just like I am. How we(USA) have NOT learned from history and its repeating itself in Iraq. The fact of the matter is... the MAJORITY of the country you live in, disagree with the Iraq war and want us to pull out. The current president got voted in(landslide), running on that ticket. Whether he does it or not, is up to the goonies in DC.
Comparing apples and oranges. Regardless of your 'feelings', Saddam Hussein calimed he had nukes...he told this to the world often. He refused to comply with twenty-something UN resolutions, skirted sanctions with the oil-4-food bullshit, and failed to comply with UN inspectors. Ultimatelly, he paid a heavy price that was dished-out by his own courts. Altruistic of us...? Possibly not as he had tried to assinate Bush 1. But, in our defense, he attacked his own people (and Iranians, too) with nerve gas, and he and his sons regularly killed and raped ordinary citizens for sport.


I also wonder why the last president was so popular, he did everything right, and left the white house in better condition then he entered. He must have done a great job the last 8 years to earn one of the highest approval ratings any president has had since record began.
Because he has people like you writing his epitaph before having the complete stroy...again. Generally takes scholars and historians a decade or two to acquire, analyze, disseminate and understand the true mechanics of an administration. Progressives, anarchists, socialists, facists and liberals all started 'disseminating' his administration prior to his taking the oath of office. Me...? I'm glad he kept my country safe, regardless of the fallout. (the constitution demands he protect our safety, and I agree with his motives) We presently have a foothold in the region, with some tentative allies on the road the democracy. The bank 'bailout' was/is/always will be bullshit, tho...and I detested the resulting manipulations by congress.

A mad dictator deleted, and a sound course for democracy in the region. What they eventually chose to do with these tennents of democracy...I guess time will tell, but Iraq is now stable enough to defend herself, infrastructure is still being rebuilt after decades of neglect and schools and hospitals are springing-up all over the country. Mission Accompolished, to quote a famous banner.

Now to Afghanistan, where our enlisted will yet again defend our allies, our values and our rights...with my full support and prayers for their safe, successful return. :jointsmile:

God I love America!

[the image reaper]

they were just saying on the news yesterday, that the 'first 30-day approval ratings' were in, and Bush is ahead of Obama, was something like 41% vs 36% :D ... evidently,the kool-aid drinkers can't read the news, (no surprise, there), but Obama is committing 30,000 MORE troops to Afghanistan, and plans to be there for a few years ... so far, he has reversed positions on almost everything promised during the campaign ... after filling his cabinet with old Clinton retreads (including the 4 that had to step down, found to be tax cheats) ... my question, for the liberal airheads, is: WHERE THE HELL IS ALL THAT 'CHANGE' YOU IDIOTS WERE CREAMING YOUR JEANS OVER ??? ... gullibility is one thing, but voting against the good of your country, thinking only to gain a lax marijuana policy, is treason, in my book ... Liberals, you disgraced yourselves, again ... :smokin:

[GrinKyle]

You forgot TIR, that I never said I supported Obama, and just stated what he ran on, and how he won. I'm a conservative, so I laugh when you all throw the "liberal" word at me, thinking that is a viable argument. I feel kinda sad that is the only thing I've pretty much read from you and rusty again and again.

Again, blame anyone but America. We can never do harm, besides, In god We Trust.

And Rusty, I find it funny you lump disagreeing with a war, with downplaying support for troops. Must be that "patriotic" word, that if you disagree with the government actions you are automatically un-patriotic. Cause whatever the US government does is the RIGHT thing, every time no matter what.

Btw, I was raised from both sides of the spectrum, and only then can you truly see the hypocritical arguments on both. (Grew up between Texas and Oregon.)

Like i said to OGG, its a lost cause. Respond you may, I shall not. This is clearly not a "I've won, so I won't type anymore.", but a "It really doesn't matter, so why waste each our times doing it."

[Rusty Trichome]

And Rusty, I find it funny you lump disagreeing with a war, with downplaying support for troops. Must be that "patriotic" word, that if you disagree with the government actions you are automatically un-patriotic. Cause whatever the US government does is the RIGHT thing, every time no matter what.
No. I disagree with those that slam one war citing half-truths and inuendo regarding another war, as a basis to blindly disagree with all governmental policies. If you are comfortable with the facts of an argument, you should defend those ideals. But likely you should be informed as to what the fuck you are talking about. As I stated, this wasn't aimed directly at you, but your statement was in line with so many others that wish to blindly follow that which they were taught in the liberal cesspools loosely refered to as centers for 'higher' learning, instead of finding out the whole story, the origins of the conflicts, and the timelines involved. (the World War 2, Korean conflict and Vietnam example.) This is called context.


Btw, I was raised from both sides of the spectrum, and only then can you truly see the hypocritical arguments on both. (Grew up between Texas and Oregon.) Sorry...Not impressed. Sounds like you're leaning too far twords the Oregon side, lol.


...This is clearly not a "I've won, so I won't type anymore.", but a "It really doesn't matter, so why waste each our times doing it."
Clearly? Gee. I was just getting started. Was looking forward to your comments on context, origins and the false blame layed at the feet of our government and the soldiers that fight in your name.
If it doesn't matter any more, then what happened between your last post and this one? It concerned you enough to specifically answer my statements made in response to your statements, yet you got real vague here. Whatever. Altho I would never to assume my points are valid and shared by all, I believe this country is worth fighting for, and will debate any that wish to get their facts straight and counter my opinions with valid reasoning and/or insight. Cut-n-paste propoganda punks need not apply. :jointsmile:

[overgrowthegovt]

Funny how I keep getting called a fascist when fascism lies at the far RIGHT of the political spectrum, and its basic agenda is repression, which I do not advocate in ANY way.

GrinKyle, I think you're right...some people are just immune to reason, and the bombs will fly on as long as such attitudes pervade with an arrogant shake of the head against the stupid bleeding-hearts and their "fascist" agenda of peace.

[painretreat]

Thanks D/P: I will sadly miss the avatar. I don't care what it is, when it moves, it gets my attention--like the 2 legged horse running. I can't rep u, says spread the luv! I did and have, still doesn't work! Spring around the corner, pretty busy, sunny here!

I/R couldn't agree with you more. The big question during election was: Will BHO represent change. As I responded, yep---just a change in the name of the resident of WH! Which is ringing true.

Clinton re-jects: Yep. Today the attn general of U.S. was on T.V. saying they put a stop to DEA mmj dispensary raids!!! Right, nothing in writing, facts or anything else. He was speaking and I did hear it--then the late news, it was a brief statement saying they are stopping. Put local L.A.P.D. said they will con't to enforce the law. Basically, if they break they rules, they will get raided. That is o.k. But the A.G. saying that makes me recall don't talk- don't tell! Meaning this can re-start any day. Especially if U.S. don't make enough money off of them.

Our Gov't was so wrapped up in the 'Cold War' that we weren't watching these terrorist camps and doing anything about it, before it came to 911! They got our attention in '92 with the WTC, no one was navigating. I say, put stoners in charge of the gov't. We need a green growers party to unit liberals and conservatives! lol !

[Rusty Trichome]

Funny how I keep getting called a fascist when fascism lies at the far RIGHT of the political spectrum, and its basic agenda is repression, which I do not advocate in ANY way.Those on the extreme right have been improperly labeled fascists for dozens of years, but try Googling liberal fascism...there's a cause or two you'd be interested in, I'm sure.

However, since you cared to comment...what do you believe a fascist and fascism is? Fascism (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism) Usually confused with marxism, but there's really too little difference between the two, and would be parsing minor details.

Looking at Osama's cabinet picks, and those he calls advisors...if you really do not advocate fascism...you bought the wrong CHANGE package, as it's getting pretty fucking hinkey in DC lately. My guess is he's got us headed tword a Soviet style economic collapse, and pushing of our nation twords the apocalypse in preperation for the impending return of the 12th Imam. But that's just my personal view at the moment, subject to change if he ever does anything within the constitution. (versus illegally gathering the power to the "central authority")

If fascist is too strong a word...perhaps communist has a sweeter ring? Either way...the views are anti-American.


Our Gov't was so wrapped up in the 'Cold War' that we weren't watching these terrorist camps and doing anything about it, before it came to 911! They got our attention in '92 with the WTC, no one was navigating. I say, put stoners in charge of the gov't. We need a green growers party to unit liberals and conservatives! lol !
What breed of stoners...?
Bummer those oh-so-insightful democrats keep cutting the intelligence budget and handcuffing their efforts. I do agree with the dropping the ball thing, tho. Wouldn't have happened with a fully-funded intelligence service, I'd imagine.

[overgrowthegovt]

Rusty...I never said I like Obama or that I believed much of his "change" rhetoric (not that it really matters, since he and I belong to different countries); I simply believe him to be the lesser of the two evils who ran. And before blaming him for the "Soviet-style collapse", let's not forget that said collapse began under a Republican administration.

While liberal fascism may in fact be a very real phenomenon (believe me, the bullshit inherent in mainstream liberalism makes me sick at times, too), but it in no way reflects my beliefs. I'm all for obeying a constitution, the government mostly minding its own business (but economic interference is necessary to stop corporations from pillaging the world), etc. I don't believe in any of the repression you associate with liberalism...what, may I ask, is even remotely fascist about being anti-war and anti-prohibition? I would genuinely like for you to explain to me how my views are oppressive and fascist. Or maybe that's just a kneejerk reaction you have to all ideas contrary to neo-conservative interventionism?

P.S., what's with all the "support the troops" talk? I support them by advocating that they be brought back home in one piece, before it's too late. I certainly don't want more fine young men to die so they can have a lovely heroic time playing soldiers and get their five minutes of posthumous glory. "Protecting values"...what about the values of other cultures? They're no less relevent, despite the narcissistic Manifest Destiny thinking that's still frighteningly ubiquitous.

[Rusty Trichome]

Rusty...I hope education standards become much more anti-government and anti-authoritarian, and fast...
...I try not to let my near-radical views get twisted by peer pressure, fanatical teachings of a failed education system, or a media bias.
Ahh...the Osmosis method of absorbing facts. You expect anyone to believe this crock?


The propagandists have done their job well. Every sexually expressive young lady who gets branded a whore, every gay forced to live in shame, every Islamic civilian killed for the protection of Christian nations, every STD acquired due to abstinence-only sex education, every struggling family that has to pay their tithe, every frustrated person who can't act on the desire due to the underlying abhorration of pleasure that permeates our society....this whole Judeo-Christian ethic has gone on long enough. As an obsolete form of oppression, it has to go.
Yeah...perhaps I'm just against those that pretend in one sentence to be sooo altruistic and open-minded to all the fags and whores, and in the next be so blatantly hateful and disrespectful to those that attempt to better themselves, and their surroundings. You are about as backwards and as insulting...as any other liberal I've openly laughed at.


...Whose holy book tells them to kill all the homosexuals, and outlines rules on the proper management of slaves? The Bible's one of the more repugnant texts ever penned.
Obviously you havn't read the Torah, or the Koran, nor the Bible. Slaves, whether endentured, captured or bought, are covered in the holy scripture, yes. Lets keep this in context, because your generalizations are borderline bullshit. How many Chrisitan terrorists have attacked countries or governments, worldwide, in the last 10 years? Last 20 years? Last 50 years? Last two hundred years...?
If you are feeling you identify with the poor oppressed black man, perhaps you should read about the centuries of slave history in Africa, prior to the arrival of europeans. (for starters)
The Africans have been buying, selling and capturing enemies, and making them slaves...since the crusades timeframe, long before the Dutch, Americans and others stumbled across the cheap labor force. Since the black chiefs felt little enough about his fellow Africans, to sell them into slavery in another country, then where is the shared blame? Where is Farahkans outrage at the original African oppressors?
Do you really think the African chiefs were blind to the slavery they were accomodating and encouraging? Got to the point of running out of neighbors, and were beginning to sell their own tribesmen and women. Among other nations, America profited from this fact, but the Africans got some good jewelry in exchange for selling their soul.
To come along and say we are the original sinners in the slave trade is at best, a sack of lies, and missing half the story. (again)



No, I haven't been drinking too much liberal/humanist KoolAid...perhaps you've been drinking too much nationalistic/security-obsessed/xenophobic/army-loving/nod-in-approval-as-civilians-slowly-bleed-to-death brandy.
The reality is that the media is much more hospitable to corporate agendas than it is to the radical dissidents. But I'm not here to discredit anybody's views on the grounds that it must be that damned media...I'll give you all the respect of assuming you form your ideas with your own mind, which is what I expect in return.
Are you ok...? Haven't hit your head or anything...?
Altered-reality counts as bullshit. You have posted nothing but a watered-down version of liberal Fascist teachings, attempting to show how open you are to the progressive-leaning pimps and queers. My flag doesn't wave that way, and I am damn proud of it.

IDK...You look pretty fucking liberal to me. But I think you're on the right track...at least you are watering your radical views a tad, and pretending to know the evils of progressive liberalism as an over-the-top knee-jerk reaction to the unknown.

[Mississippi Steve]

overgrowthegovt..... why is it that a canadian is trying to stir the political pot with an outboard motor in the US, when you don't even live here.... That smacks of the same political thinking as the US trying to bring democracy to countries that are run by nomadic tribes. Maybe you should re-think your loyalties....are they to canada?? or the US??
FWIW, if your not happy with the current political systems that are in place, I believe that you only have 2 real choices.... either become a professional politician so you can make changes in policy(thats what Obama lead the sheeple to believe), or move.

Whats your choice??

[overgrowthegovt]

Steve...I have no national loyalties; we're all just people.

Rusty...I did not claim anywhere that Christians/Europeans started slavery or were the only slave-masters. I'm well aware that slavery was used virtually everywhere a few hundred years ago, and that the African slave trade was begun by Africans. I was merely saying Christians certainly weren't opposed to it. None of that is the real focus of this argument, though.

Your comment about the "fags and whores" was a nice illustration of the point I've been trying to make about conservative intolerance...thank you. I do support the "fags and whores", and I'm very proud of it. If you think everyone should practice heterosexual serial monogamy, go ahead.

But, please, please, please, give me an answer on why you keep calling me a fucking FASCIST! As I've said, Fascism is all about oppression, and there is NOTHING oppressive about what I'm advocating: peace, individual freedom, etc. Never call me a fucking Fascist again unless you explain why, and none of this "spouting liberal Fascism" bullshit. I believe armed intervention is a key component of Fascism, not advocating peace.

[Rusty Trichome]

I was merely saying Christians certainly weren't opposed to it. None of that is the real focus of this argument, though. It's all part of the discussion. You keep telling us one thing out of the side of your mouth, and then twist facts to suit your theory about how we are the big bad USA...ugly, nasty christians...racist conservatives.


Your comment about the "fags and whores" was a nice illustration of the point I've been trying to make about conservative intolerance...thank you. I do support the "fags and whores", and I'm very proud of it. If you think everyone should practice heterosexual serial monogamy, go ahead.
Do I hang-out with fags and whores...? No.

Do I agree that they (gay's) should be allowed to hijack the Christian institution of marriage...? No, but civil ceremonies are ok in my book.

Really...I'm not impressed with your distain for our judeo-christian values. Do I lose sleep over your inferences or direct assault on our country or religion, or political affiliation...? No, but I do pray for you. :jointsmile:

But you seem to have no problem with painting me and my fellow christian Americans as intolerant and racist. In fact, I think we've been pretty damn tolerant. Every other sentance out of our mouth does not contain vile remarks about your church, your country, your choices or your values. Unlike you liberal hacks that strive to paint anybody that doesn't think along the like you, as a rascist homophobic fascist.


But, please, please, please, give me an answer on why you keep calling me a fucking FASCIST! As I've said, Fascism is all about oppression, and there is NOTHING oppressive about what I'm advocating: peace, individual freedom, etc. Never call me a fucking Fascist again unless you explain why, and none of this "spouting liberal Fascism" bullshit. I believe armed intervention is a key component of Fascism, not advocating peace.
Yes...you are a liberal fascist in thought and action. Violence is not mandatory with fascism. Words often do enough damage.

[I]Fascism:
Fascism's approach to politics is both populist--in that it seeks to activate "the people" as a whole against perceived oppressors or enemies-- and elitist--in that it treats the people's will as embodied in a select group, or often one supreme leader, from whom authority proceeds downward. Fascism seeks to organize a cadre-led mass movement in a drive to seize state power. It seeks to forcibly subordinate all spheres of society to its ideological vision of organic community, usually through a totalitarian state. Both as a movement and a regime, fascism uses mass organizations as a system of integration and control, and often uses organized violence to suppress opposition, although the scale of violence varies widely.

Fascism is hostile to Marxism, liberalism, and conservatism, yet it borrows concepts and practices from all three. Fascism rejects the principles of class struggle and workers' internationalism as threats to national or racial unity, yet it often exploits real grievances against capitalists and landowners through ethnic scapegoating or radical-sounding conspiracy theories. Fascism rejects the liberal doctrines of individual autonomy and rights, political pluralism, and representative government, yet it advocates broad popular participation in politics and may use parliamentary channels in its drive to power. Its vision of a "new order" clashes with the conservative attachment to tradition-based institutions and hierarchies, yet fascism often romanticizes the past as inspiration for national rebirth.

You walk the liberal fascist walk.
You talk the liberal fascist talk.
You rant the liberal fascist rants.
Sorry to say...you fit the liberal fascist title.

[overgrowthegovt]

Do I reject individual autonomy and rights? No, I believe nothing is more important. I believe in virtually nothing in that description, and don't forget that "liberal fascism" was only coined in one book by Jonah Goldberg, a nationalistic reactionary convinced the liberals were responsible for all that was wrong with America, and that it's not taken seriously as a genuine ideology...just a conservative conspiracy, nothing more.

You say I don't tolerate your values, and that I try to paint you as a fascist? Let's cut the irony with a knife, especially with the second part of that sentence. I never said you're racist--I'm sure you're not. My quarrel is not with you as a person, but with certain ideas that perpetuate war.

All you did was provide a definition of fascism and then say I fit the bill, as if it's self-evident. All I am advocating is peace, and you have yet to explain to me what is fascistic about recommending we put away the bombs. I know we've gotten WIDELY side-tracked in this thread, but let's bring it back right here to what it's really about, the morality of war. "Violence isn't necessary for fascism--words often do enough damage." WHAT DAMAGE?

I think you equate me with an oppressive kind of liberalism where speech and thought is severely restricted by political correctness. I'm not politically correct and I don't seek to silence or oppress anybody. So again, WHAT DAMAGE?

[Rusty Trichome]

and don't forget that "liberal fascism" was only coined in one book by Jonah Goldberg, a nationalistic reactionary convinced the liberals were responsible for all that was wrong with America, and that it's not taken seriously as a genuine ideology...just a conservative conspiracy, nothing more.
To you it's a conservative conspiracy. To the rest of us...it's an obvious title, but regardless...you disregard the content and the ideology of a book you've never read, simply by reading the reviews? At least you got your info from a reliable sourse, lol.

Well lets see...Clinton (before Bush II took office) saw the same reports, heard the same arguments, Obama's uncle Saddam kept reminding everyone in the world that he had nukes, and was giving the UN the middle finger as they tried to quell the situation with sanctions and embargo's. This all happened before George W Bush was elected to office, or is that just one of those forgettable little facts you keep trying to defend your "insight" with?

A little Iraq-attack timeline: Anyone recognize the players involved and cited...? Seems to me this is a liberal administration actually on the road to making some sense...yet when Bush II inherited the fiasco, Bush has gotten the blame. Childish, inaccurate and revisionist.

(After the election, but just before Clinton was taking office)
January 13, 1993: As Bill Clinton is about to take office, he states: "I am a Baptist. I believe in death-bed conversions. If he [Hussein] (Saddam...not Barack) wants a different relationship with the United States and the United Nations, all he has to do is change his behavior." (The New York Times, January 14, 1993)

January 14, 1993: In the face of criticism, particularly from The New York Times, that he might lift sanctions and even normalize relations with Iraq, Clinton backtracks: "There is no difference between my policy and the policy of the present Administration.... I have no intention of normalizing relations with him." (See The New York Times and Boston Globe, January 15, 1993) Incoming Secretary of State Warren Christopher: "I find it hard to share the Baptist belief in redemption.... I see no substantial change in the position and continuing total support for what the administration has done."

January 12, 1995: While inspections are taking place, though not complete, Ambassador Madeleine Albright says the U.S. is "determined to oppose any modification of the sanctions regime until Iraq has moved to comply with all its outstanding obligations." She specifically cites the return of Kuwaiti weaponry and non-military equipment. (Reuters, January 12, 1995)
[B](After Clinton takes office)

May 12, 1996: On "60 Minutes," Lesley Stahl asks Albright: "We have heard that a half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. Is the price worth it?" Albright responds: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price-we think the price is worth it."

Late 1996: The United Nations begins "oil-for-food" program.

March 26, 1997: Albright, in her first major foreign policy address as Secretary of State: "We do not agree with the nations who argue that if Iraq complies with its obligations concerning weapons of mass destruction, sanctions should be lifted. Our view, which is unshakable, is that Iraq must prove its peaceful intentions. It can only do that by complying with all of the Security Council resolutions to which it is subjected. Is it possible to conceive of such a government under Saddam Hussein? When I was a professor, I taught that you have to consider all possibilities. As Secretary of State, I have to deal in the realm of reality and probability. And the evidence is overwhelming that Saddam Hussein's intentions will never be peaceful."

November 14, 1997: President Clinton. [During a standoff on weapons inspectors] "What he [Hussein] says his objective is, is to relieve the people of Iraq, and presumably the government, of the burden of the sanctions. What he has just done is to ensure that the sanctions will be there until the end of time or as long as he lasts. So I think that if his objective is to try to get back into the business of manufacturing vast stores of weapons of mass destruction and then try to either use them or sell them, then at some point the United States, and more than the United States, would be more than happy to try to stop that."

November 30, 1997: Ambassador Bill Richardson in the Washington Post: "To the extent Saddam used the inspectors' two-week absence to hide weapons, he has only delayed for Iraq the time it will take the UNSCOM team to ensure compliance, therefore further delaying any possibility of lifting sanctions."


If you'd like...there's more. But I'm fascinated by the left-wing hacks trying to blame everything on the conservatives.



You say I don't tolerate your values, and that I try to paint you as a fascist? Let's cut the irony with a knife, especially with the second part of that sentence. I never said you're racist--I'm sure you're not. My quarrel is not with you as a person, but with certain ideas that perpetuate war. You slam my religion, my country, my patriotism and my values, and we have never met. Where were your concerns in the 1990's when the Clinton administration was going thru the above-cited timeframe...or was it ok back then because a liberal was in charge? Whatever...


All you did was provide a definition of fascism and then say I fit the bill, as if it's self-evident.
No...all I did was to post the definition of fascism, as some in here are unaware of the ideology, it's goals and it's occational violent nature. You say you abhore violence, and continue to spout psychobabble in an attempt to sway others to your views of the necessity for radical, godless social reforms, regardless of the facts behind your anger. I say again...the education system has failed you tremendously.


All I am advocating is peace, and you have yet to explain to me what is fascistic about recommending we put away the bombs. I know we've gotten WIDELY side-tracked in this thread, No... And this is the problem I have with your ideology. Because you refuse to put into context the story behind your fooliish words, the facts behind the decisions to go to war escape you, so you must be right, 'eh?


I think you equate me with an oppressive kind of liberalism where speech and thought is severely restricted by political correctness. I'm not politically correct and I don't seek to silence or oppress anybody. Same here. But my goal is to get you folks that twist and rewrite history at your leisure to understand...I am not sure I've ever been politically correct, but I will call bullshit when I see it, and defend my religion, my country and my philosophy against all invaders.

When something is worth fighting for, I do not roll-over and play dead. I expect my country to do the same. And since I believe every country has the same right to defend itself, as we have to defend our homes and families, it is often a necessary evil.

[overgrowthegovt]

I think something needs to be cleared up. You seem to think that because I abhor the Republicans, I like the Democrats or think Clinton was a good president. On the contrary, I despise the Democratic Party (they're much too conservative), and believe Clinton to be a joke. Both parties persecute drugs, cater to corporations, maintain a bullying foreign policy, and are dominated by Christians. To paraphrase Gore Vidal, the only real difference between the parties is that the Democrats are cuter and prettier and more willing to make small compromises when the poor or the black or the anti-imperialists get out of line, and the Republicans are a bit stupider and more aggressive. So, there's no need to bash the Clinton administration...you're preaching to the choir. I'm not laying sole blame on the Republicans for the current nightmare, but on the American political system as a whole, which only allows for aristocrats or populists who

I'm just saying, you're dismissing my ideas on the grounds that they are not my own, that I am a mindless victim of liberal fascism and its prevalence in the failed education system. My ideas come from inconsistencies I notice in day-to-day life, books I have read independently of the school system (which never gave us anything really radical to read), and a mishmash of places. I don't know what education systems you're talking about (based on your age, you've never been educated in one), but where I come from the schools indoctrinate in the way of honouring the troops, respecting authority, being sexually modest, etc. I'm going to show you the respect of assuming that your views are your own and not those of your educators or the media. I expect the same in return. I know it's very popular nowadays to discredit any idea deemed liberal by blaming that damn liberal media or that damn liberally fascist school system, but it cuts no ice with me. We're two intelligent human beings discussing our opinions, and we shouldn't need to do that.

I don't keep trying to tell you your ideas aren't your own, that they come from FOX News or the pro-military propagandists.

I slam all patriotism because it is a harmful disease that breeds pride, arrogance and wars, in that order. To protect their values and way of life, people all over the world are willing to kill.

I refuse to put into context the story behind my foolish words? How's this...all the wars in the Middle East are about economic ulterior motives, protecting the tyrannical Israel, and keeping the Western values boot firmly on the face of other peoples who may resent the arrogance. Decades of oppressive, blood-sucking foreign policy got its retaliation with 9/11, which became the excuse for the horrendous war crimes that followed. The U.S. government is the most tyrannical and dangerous entity on this planet (they're mildly democratic towards their own people, but impose their imperialism on the rest of the world), and they are supported by patriots incapable of seeing through the bullshit (though they claim to see through the "liberal indoctrination" that somehow still results in wars, prohibition, economic and cultural imperialism, corporatism, and undying allegiance to Israel. I've yet to figure that one out--the "liberal indoctrination" doesn't seem to be working very well).

[Mississippi Steve]

overgrowthegovt.... my daughters used to think like you do when they were in college.... that is until they entered the work place and had to actually earn a living and pay taxes like everybody else. Seems they have changed their minds, and are a little more tolerant. Maybe one day you too will see the light.

Have a nice life.

[Rusty Trichome]

I'm just saying, you're dismissing my ideas on the grounds that they are not my own, that I am a mindless victim of liberal fascism and its prevalence in the failed education system. Yup. That about sum's it up.
Your intolerance is unacceptable, and your insults are obviously mindless garbage that you've been digesting your entire (short-lived) life. Bummer so much of your intellect was wasted listening to those that teach you that I owe you a house, a car, a job, decriminalized drugs. That for you to question authority is a way to remind oppressors of your demands, and we will relent...opening our arms to you in blissful unity. Somewhere you have got it in your head that whining is a viable alternative to hard work and using ones brain for something other than a propoganda poster.

I work for what little I have, and I think your uninspired rantings of social injustice are a simple way for you to avoid the obvious, which is that you can't deal with life on life's terms, coupled with the realization that you are not as special as you've been brought-up to believe. Nothing will be handed to you on a silver platter. People won't be drawn to you just because of your overbearing half-informed method of screaming out injustices. Usually they will point and laugh, while keeping a suspicious eye on this commie-freak.

I owe you nothing, but you owe yourself the truth...which is either learn before you speak, or deal with the people like me challenging your every percieved insight with regards to this flawed concept of socialism, which you keep vomiting all over this forum. If your plan is to go through life with this burdensome chip on your shoulder...it will be you to blame. After all...it's you not respecting the artwork on the other side of the coin...and for all the wrong reasons.

Besides...I'm not going to let some commie shit all over my religion, my country, and my social ideology, without poking fun at their foolishness.

And also...I didn't even know that there were conscientious objectors in the anarchist movement. (nice cookbook, too)

I still wish there was an extra box on my tax returns, where I could donate an extra $10.00 to further defense department technologies, though.
Tag...you're it, lol.

[overgrowthegovt]

Alright, your turn....

You, sir, make far too many assumptions about me. I'm aware that nobody owes me anything and I'm certainly no "commie", as you brand all left-leaning people. Nobody ever told me I was special, since I was raised by cold parents, but I'm aware of my creative and intellectual gifts, yes. Oh, I do think I'm owed decriminalized drugs, yes, since it's not for any paternalistic despots to tell me what I can do with my consciousness.

You don't strike me as being quite so much of a moron as your average traditionalist (you're capable of coherent speech, at any rate, which is rare), so it's quite sad that you've fallen victim to the reactionary, "liberal-media-hating", warmongering mindset. Such people grow up in say-grace families, become convinced that their country has the right to bloodily defend its idiotic values, that marriage is for sexual conformists, that any opposition to corporate pillaging is just commie talk, etc. They're incapable of any free thought, simply taking an aggressive stance for the ideas they were raised on. One nation under God, my country right or wrong, let's fight for our "freedom"...never moves past what was hammered into them from the cradle. But of course, in their mind their obsolete views are self-evident and that damn media is to blame for any dissidents...forget that the media is most hospitable to mainstream values and rarely endorses anything radical or anarchistic. It's that damn media.

Bottom line: my ideas allow for peace, equality and freedom from cultural indoctrination. Yours allow for war, corporate slavery and adherence to the same outdated teachings learned from Pa. Why do you think so many artists are dissidents? Could it be they have the ability to go beyond what they were brought up on? Hmmm. Few men of vision tend to think much of the status quo. The simple people...well, that's another matter. For them anyone who thinks outside the box will always be a freak and a threat.

Steve...don't think I'll ever crawl in bed with the status quo. Sorry. Too many epiphanies too early in life.

[Rusty Trichome]

You don't strike me as being quite so much of a moron as your average traditionalist (you're capable of coherent speech, at any rate, which is rare) At least you are working on your spelling and grammar. Is punctuation next on the list? Sorry, that's the best I can offer under these circumstances, lol.


You, sir, make far too many assumptions about me.
Bottom line: my ideas allow for peace, equality and freedom from cultural indoctrination. Yours allow for war, corporate slavery and adherence to the same outdated teachings learned from Pa.

This sums up our differences, and my opinions about you, in a nutshell.
You feel it's ok to bash me and my ideology, but you become offended when I take your own words and writings, and use them in kind against you.

I stand-by my summation of your schooling and half-thoughts. Reason being...I'm not the victim of an underbudget school raising shitloads of little anarchists raging against the machine of industrial capitalism. Don't like to work for the corporate 'slave drivers', then start your own business. Or is it work in general you abhore? Try taking your ideology all the way to it's natural conclusion, (can go one of two or three ways, ultimately) and see if you can find the 'reactionary' responses of your anti-violent (bullshit) social reforms. Anti-violent anarchism. Yeah, right. Yet another angry cult attempting to change their tactics to become relevant. Y'all still wearing black? (like your Pa did years ago?)

And your decision for the rest of us, that we are lesser people for feeling differently about morals and values...or that we should be angry about the lost freedoms and liberties. What lost personal freedoms and liberties? They are already ours, despite your insistance that the government is oppressing us. Look in the mirror. That is the person oppressing you. Don't like the laws...? Work to change them The mechanisms are there, in place. Learn to work within the rules, and you can move mountains. Rage against the machine...you'll get run-over without a second thought, nor a tear.

Humans, since the beginning of time, have been a warring people. An invasive virus in the firmament of life. According to one of the first laws of nature, if you are not ready and able to defend yourself, your family, your values and morals...you won't be among the survivors. There's no such thing as a eutopian society, and to chase it at the expense of reality, is dangerous folly.

[Mississippi Steve]

Rusty, your wasting your breath(typing?). The child still hasn't matured or had enough of lifes experiences to have learnedthe rules, and how to use the rules to his advantage.
Seems that in the 60s and the 70s there were an awful lot of folks that thought like him in the Peoples Republic of Berkeley. The scary part is that these same folks are the ones that are teaching these ideals to our children and grand children, instead of teaching them common sense and how to think for themselves..

Peace

[Rusty Trichome]

True, but without somebody presenting the conservative side of the equation, misinformation is the only commodity offered to the masses.

[MadSativa]

I know this is a breach of privacy but I dont care,
I got a negative feed back from OVERGROWTHEGOVERNMENT with the following.

"A veteran is just a retired murderer (WWII excepted) and I'll talk to them however they please if they strike me as arrogant and condescending, as was the case here. I exercised restraint, believe me. Feel free to worship at the veteran shrine."

He responded this way becasue I said he was disrespectfull when I left him a negative feed back.

All I got to say is "I rest my case"

one more thing we are all murderers, just because you never saw someones life leave theri body does not meen you didnt pull that trigger, or vote that guy in their, becasue you pull out your inocent card all the time is fact alone you are at fault as well as the rest of us. One man can also go to war with himself, even if it is to dilude his or her self. You are part of this world even if you hide from it you can not run from the truth. and those who accept their fate and move on to to their job, and try to make a differance those are the ones you need to listen to and give respect to, more than 99% of Veterans deserve your respect, because the proved their value by serving, this value is far more valuable than any other human value because it invloves all values that are good and not evil.
It involes, all aspects from compasion, restraint, honor, service, just to name a few, people who talk shit to people that deserve respect from everyone, are either Ignorant, or part of the problem. Either way it is a problem

And I worship nuthing, no kings, no gods, no men, no women, but I respect all to worship what they will, that is their choice not mine, to me worship is an evil word, and the way Over grow used it makes me think my point is proven.

[Breukelen advocaat]

I know this is a breach of privacy but I dont care,
I got a negative feed back from OVERGROWTHEGOVERNMENT with the following.

"A veteran is just a retired murderer (WWII excepted) and
Apparently, the only war that OVERGROWTHEGOVERNMENT feels was justified, and not just "murder", was our participation in WWII.

Do you, OVERGROWTHEGOVERNMENT, feel that the Patriots who fought England in the American Revolution were "murderers"?

Do you think that the Nazis were worse than Al Quaeda? They are different but radical Islamism, as practiced by Al Quaeda and similar groups is just as bad, if not worse, than Nazism.

[denialisback]

Instead of attacking Kabul, and other cities, we should have pattern-bombed, or nuked, the mountainous regions where Al-Quada operatives and leaders were holed up.

Hey Bruekelen :jointsmile:

I'm super positively sure you are a nice guy :D your on cannacom, but I do have to say I'm rather glad you're not actively running for defence secretary.

:)

Peace,
denial

[Rusty Trichome]

He responded this way becasue I said he was disrespectfull when I left him a negative feed back.
Gee...did he spell something wrong...? If/when you leave a negative rep, one should damn well be ready to recieve the same in return. But whining like a scorned bitch or a defenseless child...is likely anti-productive. Politics is a bloodsport. Toughen-up. :thumbsup:


And I worship nuthing, no kings, no gods, no men, no women, but I respect all to worship what they will, that is their choice not mine, to me worship is an evil word, and the way Over grow used it makes me think my point is proven.
You respect those that chose to have faith, but you don't respect faith, and you think don't have a choice...? Perhaps you should explore that which you obviously know nothing about, before writing a single word about it. Makes one look foolish talkin' out of one's ass.

Churches nationwide help those with questions, find answers. They don't bite, they don't kidnap, they don't torture, you won't get infected, there's no dues or fees...but you might learn something positive in return, that can last the rest of your life.
And yes, some Christians smoke pot, too.
Christians For Cannabis Forums (http://christiansforcannabis.com/e107/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewforum.php?3)

[MadSativa]

^^??? to many questions to answer, but as far as faith goes, its just another word to me, I dont force my way of life on anyone, nor do I care what anyone worships or belives. The devil, alah, budah, Gilgamesh, the horned cow, Bush all the same to me. leaders of more propaganda. And bitching is something eles entirely, what I am doing is stepping up, because some one to defend his self is natural, someone to defend someone else is just and right. I dont give disrespect to any Vet, forgin or domestic. I just got alota love and respect for the domestic Vets. Im not sore about the feed back, but what he said is kinda, obviously .........well you know

[Rusty Trichome]

I dont give disrespect to any Vet, forgin or domestic. I just got alota love and respect for the domestic Vets.
Am I the only one that sees the hypocrisy in this? Really...if you haven't thought-out your views, is this the time or place to be showing your confusion...?

Some viewpoints really turn my stomach. :wtf:

[overgrowthegovt]

Rusty...my punctuation's impeccable, so what was with the gibe? That's all I have to say here, since it's apparent that we think very little of one another, neither of us is ever going to change our mind, and that we both think the other to be simply a brain-washed fool. Every single view you've expressed I believe to be pure bullshit, and vice versa, so very little ground is going to be gained either way.

Mississippi Steve...if believing that young people don't embrace your values because they haven't grown up yet helps you sleep at night, be my guest. We all have a tendency (myself included, I'll be the first to admit) to hold the view that people with different worldviews simply haven't evolved as much as we have.

Anyway, nice debating you both...I feel I did fairly well, considering I was outnumbered two to one in the last gasp.

[Rusty Trichome]

Rusty...my punctuation's impeccable, so what was with the gibe?
Well...I could list my reasons alphabetically or in order of importance, your choice. Here's a sample tho...

You don't strike me as being quite so much of a moron as your average traditionalist (you're capable of coherent speech, at any rate, which is rare) Insulting a class of people because that are different than you is called what...? Just returning that which was freely given to me.


Anyway, nice debating you both...I feel I did fairly well, considering I was outnumbered two to one in the last gasp.
Likewise. I know the feeling of being outnumbered very well. In forums like this, it's sometimes hard to even find another conservative, let alone getting one to join-in. I'm sure we'll be talkin' again.


...don't think I'll ever crawl in bed with the status quo. Sorry. Too many epiphanies too early in life.
Epiphanies to one, is a flashback to another, lol.

[overgrowthegovt]

Rusty, I admit that that comment was insulting (neither of us have been as polite as we should be), but what does that have to do with punctuation? There were no commas or periods missing that I could notice.

Anyway, just wanted to say I'm sure you're a nice guy (who just got a little heated, like I did) and that our opposing ideologies needn't create any bad blood. I'm sure if we ever met we'd smoke a bowl and laugh about this.

[Rusty Trichome]

Rusty, I admit that that comment was insulting (neither of us have been as polite as we should be), but what does that have to do with punctuation? There were no commas or periods missing that I could notice.

Twas jokingly (to me) returning insults being tossed-around.


I'm sure if we ever met we'd smoke a bowl and laugh about this.
...At the local gay bar, no doubt? <kidding>

[overgrowthegovt]

Hahaa I'm straight, Rusty, but if you're looking I might know some folks (also kidding).

[Rusty Trichome]

Been thinking about it...I guess I could make an exception for a Carol Channing karaoke night. :jointsmile:

[overgrowthegovt]

I'll toke to that.

[FreshNugz]

...At the local gay bar, no doubt? <kidding>

LMAO
clever.

I like that you two were able to resolve this nicely. Yay for maturity.:thumbsup: