how do you guys do it??

[michaelpeg]

how do you folks get your plants up to 4th set of adult leaves in seedling soil? (example is stinkys donkeydick grow log) Do you really use no nutes? I ask because my seedlings have looked the same for the last week, i have them in C-I-L seedling mix and all they are up to is thier first set of true leaves and the very beginning of thier second set (they are maybe 3 mm) and they have been looking exactly the same for a week now. I am watering with tap water which was left to sit for 24 hours and ph'd at 6.0. I usually grow my plants in seedling soil until harvest my providing nutes with every watering. When i have had this problem in the past i have given them a tiny bit of foxfarm grow big and they usually get on thier way but not this time. I tried and i burned one seedling but the rest still look perfectly fine but just not growing. This needs to be fixed as it has been plagueing me now and then since my very first grow.

[michaelpeg]

some stuff i forgot, i am growing under a 400 watt hps and the plants are fem. PPP from nirvana

[M.B.A.]

the hps light could be afeecting their growth, too much red spectrum not enough blue, get a MH Conversion bulb or start em under and cfl or shop light( 4ft flouro tubes)

[tinytoon]

Not sure if this will help or not but if you leave your water out to sit for 24 hours before giving to plants are you not starting the distilling process for water? Always thought the longer water sat out the more O2 would be lost from water. Like I said not sure if it means anything just a thought

[michaelpeg]

i leave the water out for 24 hours to evaporate the chlorine out of it. Damn i keep reading that you can put seedlings straight under hps, but this is probably the reason for my seedlings not growing as this is my first time under the 400 watter, last time i had em under cfls, grew fine. thank you +rep

[Rusty Trichome]

I'd raise the ph to between 6.5 and 6.8 for soil. 6.0 is wayyyy too low. :thumbsup:

I use a 400w MH for veg. No need to reconfigure your growroom with CFL's unless you really want to. You just have to raise it a foot or so higher till seedlings are hardened-up a bit. But then again, I also keep clone mothers and clones in there at the same time.

4th set of leaves is a guideline, but not a rule. I start my seedlings on quarter-strength nute solution after third set is open, not including the cotelydons. (those round baby leaves)

[michaelpeg]

im using 6.0 because the seedling soil is actually soilless because it has no nutritional value. please correct me if this is not what a soilless medium is because i have been a little confused over what soilless actually is but i think i know.

[michaelpeg]

hey rusty please let me know before you go offline because i need to water soon. thank you

[michaelpeg]

or anyone else

[Rusty Trichome]

Anything with a peat moss base will tend to bring ph down, especially after time. If using garden soil, (from your garden) you have pathogens, bacteria, uncomposted dog crap and other stuff to worry about. Soilless mixes are sterilized:

Why Not Start Seeds in Soil from the Garden?
You certainly could use soil right from your garden, to start seedlings indoors. However garden soil comes with 2 major disadvantages.
You Donâ??t Know Whatâ??s Coming in With It - Disease spores, bacteria, plant eating insects, weed seeds and assorted other unwanteds can easily hitch a ride with your garden soil There are all kinds of natural predators and weather phenomenon outdoors that help keep these things in check. To use this soil indoors, youâ??d need to sterilize it first, with some sort of heat treatment.

Lack of Drainage - Garden soil tends to be somewhat heavy and without tilling, either by you, earthworms or other insects, it begins to compact after several waterings. This compaction is especially hard on the tender roots of young seedlings just getting established.

Why go with a Soilless Mix?
A soilless mix gives you more control. Besides being free of disease and other contaminates, you can blend ingredients for preferred drainage, water retention and air space. It is also lighter in weight, which youâ??ll appreciate when you have to move the pots outdoors.

Whatâ??s in the Soilless Potting Mix?
Most soilless mixes are predominantly sphagnum peat moss. Sphagnum peat is lightweight, inexpensive and in certain areas, renewable. Just as importantly, itâ??s well draining yet water retentive. Granted, until you get the peat thoroughly moistened, the particles can be very unpleasant to work with. Peat is also on the acidic side and most seed starting mixes have a soil pH around 5.8, which is fine for starting most seeds.
There are also amendments added to the peat, which can include:

Bark: Bark is added to improve drainage and air space within the mix. This means it will also decrease the water retention slightly. Bark mixes are better for use with mature plants that need to dry between waterings than for starting seeds. (large chunks in small pots...likely not good for cannabis)

Coir: Coir is a coconut fiber by-product and works similar to peat in providing good drainage while also retaining water. Itâ??s often used as a substitute in areas where peat is hard to come by.

Perlite: Perlite is that stuff that looks like pebbly Styrofoam. Itâ??s a volcanic mineral, although it does not affect the nutrient quality or the pH of the mix. It does add in drainage and in air and water retention, that magical balance. In fact, it is sometimes used in outdoor gardens to prevent sandy soil from leaching nutrients.

Vermiculite: Vermiculite is those silvery-gray flecks you see in potting soil. Itâ??s a mica-type material that is heated up and expanded, to increase itâ??s water holding capacity. The particles soak up water and nutrients and hold them in the mix until the plants are ready to access them. Perlite is also good as a soil covering for seeds that need to remain consistently moist to germinate. Careful...retains moisture almost too well.

You may see vermiculite for sale at home improvement stores, for use in insulation or plaster. This grade vermiculite is not really suitable for potting mixes since it does not absorb water easily.

Some soilless mixes will also include fertilizer and/or trace elements or a wetting agents.

Seeds donâ??t require fertilizer for germination, so it is somewhat wasted if you are using it for seed starting. By the time the seedlings have grown true leaves and require supplemental food, what ever was in the mix has begun to dissipate.

Wetting agents (non-anitbacterial dishsoap, for instance) are polymers added to the water to improve water absorption into the soil mix. I donâ??t know of any certified organic wetting agents, perhaps because by nature, a soil wetting canâ??t be quickly bio-degradable or theyâ??d be useless. I usually do fine without a wetting agent by making sure my mix is well moistened before I put it into pots and then, not letting it completely dry out. A tricky balance when growing cannabis.

You may also see pH adjusting amendments such as limestone, phosphoric acid or gypsum. Mixes will vary by manufacturer and region. Occasionally a particular plant will favor certain amendments over others, but for seed starting a basic mix is generally sufficient. These will be labeled for seed starting or as a starter or germination mix.

Hope this helps.

Soilless Potting Mixes (http://gardening.about.com/od/seedsavin1/a/Potting_Mix.htm)

[sensilights]

pH of 6.0 will make your plants ugly :( I had a similar situation, my water (distilled+CalMg) was a pH of 6.0 and was causing my seedlings to ugly out quite a bit, apparantly below pH 6.5 the root system can't absorb the nutrients needed (whatever is in the soil) (here's a linky http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-faqs/25080-charts-other-stuff-you-can-use.html ). If I understand correctly, this can cause (at least in my case) salt buildup,general plant uglyness, and slow growth. I remedied this problem with some earth juice ph up. I used a seperate container to make a small amount of pH buffer (water and pH up), then added that sparingly to the water for the girls (use very small amounts as a little bit goes a loooooooooong way) and a good flush of the ugly plant.

Check the pH of the runoff, for me the only plant that had a runoff pH of below 6.6 was the ugly poor performer, so a flush was in order with some pH balanced water and this seems to have taken care of the issue.


EDIT: I checked C-I-L's website and they say the seedling starter mix is soil, perlite, and peat moss.

[michaelpeg]

thank you for the responses, so basically i think what you are saying rusty is that i am using a soilless medium and what you are saying sensi is that even if i am growing in soilless i should still keep the ph around 6.5 regardless? I will start using ph 6.5 water to see if it makes a difference. Also like you said rusty that big pieces and bark are probably not good, well that mix has alot of big chunks of bark so that may be another reason. I haven't always grown with ph 6.0 water i used to grow with ph 6.7~ and i have had this same problem but i keep reading soilless is a mix with no nutritional value and peat based like what i am using and I keep finding that the ph is supposed to be around 6.0, i thought this would fix my problem but obviously not. my runoff currently comes out around 6.1.

Anyways i figured out how to fix this kind of, the same way i grew my very first plant, when i first started, i didnt read as much as i should have and i used some soil with almost no drainage and slow release ferts for my seedlings. they were doing very poorly but i just pulled them out of that soil and put them in the seedling mix and they grew great for some reason. I just transplanted one of my seedlings out of the seedling mix and into the horrible soil and the new leaves have started to get going. Once they are near death i plan to take them out and put them back in the seedling mix and hopefully they will start growing normally. Im sure most of you guys will think this is stupid but it worked before hopefully it will work again.

P.S, cool chart on the link, will use as a reference if i forget.
and Rusty dont worry about taking a while to answer you cant be everywhere at one time.

[Rusty Trichome]

Germinating seeds in general:

...Peat is also on the acidic side and most seed starting mixes have a soil pH around 5.8, which is fine for starting most seeds.

For cannabis seeds:

I'd raise the ph to between 6.5 and 6.8 for soil. 6.0 is wayyyy too low. :thumbsup:

This applies to runoff ph also.

[michaelpeg]

ok cool, thank you sir i will keep the runoff around 6.5