Yellowing again.

[dillhole]

Hi, it's me again. My plants seem to have the same problem that they had in this thread (http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-problems/165090-raising-soil-ph.html), only it's worse. After I thought I resolved the problem the last time, the plants looked great for a while. Now the yellowing has very rapidly progressed up the plant and the sugar leaves are showing symptoms.

Since the conclusion of my last post in the problems area, I have given them two waterings. The first was plain water with 1 tsp per gallon unsulphured molasses. I noticed the runoff then was in the low 6 range. So on the second watering I added 1 tbsp of hydrated lime per gallon of tap water and a very, very small amount of nutes. I also used a capful per gallon of Hydrogen peroxide since the soil has been damp for a long time. I used 2 gallons of the mix per plant and each had about 1/2 gal of runoff. The pH of this was about 6. I also gave a light foliar feed of H2SO4, thinking the yellowing looked similar to Mg deficiency.

I know the pH is too low, probably causing a nute lockout. The question is why is the soil going acidic so quickly? Root rot? I am unable to get Cannazyme or Rhizotonic now due to finances and local unavailability.

So, what's wrong and what should I do?

Here's the troubleshooting form:

Plant age 73 days since germination. 36th day of 12/12
Indoor
Soil
50% Jungle Growth soil mixed with 25% vermiculite and 25% perlite
Miracle Growth veg nutes with tomato on box (no longer using)
Green Light bloom nutes 12-55-6
Hydrated lime
Permitherin and Bifenthrin insecticides (for fungus gnats, no longer using)
City water source pH about 7
Lights 13 Cfl's and two 48" t8 tubes (450 actual watts/1650 equivalent watts)
About 42000 lumens for 8 sq ft grow area
79-80F day temp/65F night temp
45% relative humidity average. 65% max. 30% low.
Closet has high CFM exhaust into attic with passive intake at floor level.

[Lit Up]

Alright here we go. Some colorful insight to your troubles. The last hour has been spent investigating your threads and I believe that I have formed a hypothesis as to why you are having this somewhat extreme discoloration in your lady's......

I noticed in your first thread that you concluded your plants were root bound and needed to be transplanted right? And you proceeded to transplant them; the method of transplant is what I think is to blame for this unfortunate turn of events.

To my understanding, you removed your plants from their 3 gallon containers, then you proceeded to trim the rootball that had formed on before mentioned plants. You then put fresh soil in the bottom and re-planted your plants. Correct.

You mentioned that the bottom of you root ball was dry, it seemed as if you hadn't been watering it enough. This intrigued me some, but I'm pretty "Lit" at the moment and well, it just, yeah, intrigued me.

So here is what I think is going on. You were, without knowledge of, under watering your plants. These exhibited some of the same characteristics as a root bound plant when in fact they were under watered and low on nutes. Although, a transplant into a 5 gal. pot would have been beneficial, the roots didn't look so bad as to where they would be dying as such.

So now you have chopped, if you HAVE chopped, you roots down in size and your plants are unable to take up the large amount of nutrients that is needs right now due to the recent trim job it received. When all she needed in the first place was more water and a larger container.

It's hit or miss, but if this was a Sherlock Holmes movie I'd be right on. I hoped this was useful and entertaining to everyone.

[dillhole]

Wow Lit Up, thanks for taking the time to go through all of that! That is an interesting analysis of the situation. One that I haven't thought of. However, I didn't actually remove the plants from their pots and trim the roots. I cut about 4 inches off the pot and "loosened the roots", then I stacked it onto the new pot. The root structure should have remained intact. The soil at the bottom wasn't exactly dry, just drier than I expected.

I have been trying to figure out if the plants have been suffering from under nuting or nute burn. To my untrained eye the two conditions seem very similar. The low pH, combined with the small amount of nutrients used, makes me rule out nute burn. I just can't figure out why the pH drops so quickly after flushing. Another thing, the plant on the right is a castrated hermaphrodite :). It has been treated the same as the other two. It's not showing the same symptoms. Hmm.

I believe that you are right that the roots are the problem area. I'm hoping that this isn't the signs of root rot. I seem to be caught between a rock and a hard spot. Live with the low pH, or correct it by overwatering. I hope I can fix this and let the plants mature. At the very least I want to find out what is causing the problems. Sounds like a job for Sherlock Holmes :pimp:

[Lit Up]

Now that I think about it, I kind of had a similar problem last grow. I ended up transplanting about 4 weeks into flower. One plant I noticed starting dying off late in flower so I took her early, pulled up the roots and they hadn't grown an inch since transplant she came right out and left an imprint the size of the old pot, no root growth at all. The other two girls were fine and are re vegging at the moment. Not sure what happened with the one but she definitely was dying fast.

[dillhole]

Hmm, just thought about something. I didn't start having pH problems until I started my bloom nutes. I'm using Green Light 12-55-6, the only stuff that Lowe's had. Could this stuff be causing the acidic soil?

I also used Green Light root stimulator when I transplanted and flushed. When I did that I achieved a pH of about 7 on the runoff. The next watering (no nutes) the pH was low again. That doesn't seem like a normal drop in pH.

Anyone have experience using these nutes?

[stinkyattic]

Fix your runoff according to the sticky at the top of this section. That will prevent further problems. But this is the most bizarre statement in this thread:


I also gave a light foliar feed of H2SO4, thinking the yellowing looked similar to Mg deficiency.

Okay, where to begin. H2SO4 is a STRONG acid! Unless you have sulfuric acid at your house, I have to assume you got it from your bottle of pH down liquid. Never ever under any circumstances foliar feed your plants with pH down. Next, I see no Mg in the molecular formula for sulfuric acid, so I'm not following your logic as to why you'd choose H2SO4 over MgSO4, whcih actually HAS the Magnesium ion available... ? Finally, that's not mag def.

[dillhole]

Hi Stinky, thanks for stopping by. Of course I meant MgSO4, not H2SO4. I was in a hurry and just typoed. Thanks for pointing that out, I'd hate for someone to spray battery acid on their plants because of me.

Yeah, I'm gonna fix the pH again with a flush. But I don't understand why the soil becomes so acidic so quickly.

[Weedhound]

Something is causing your roots to die off. That's what's lowering your ph. Root death causes acidic conditions......overnute or burn generally raises ph but then it will lower again as the dead root disinitegrate (sp?) If you are not using a good root product for root health I'd start asap.

Stinky is right that you must correct the ph abnormality first, then figure out why it's happening. Bloom nutes ARE lower in ph generally but your job is to keep things balanced. Escpecially as your plants get older (and yours obviously look pretty darn happy) you WILL have to do more hopping and jumping to keep things correct. This is a normal part of the plant's life cycle......some root death is normal here as the plant completes it's life cycle.

PS....SILENCE!! I KILL YOU!!!!! I love achmed. :D

Do ou

[Weedhound]

http://boards.cannabis.com/hydroponics/96982-my-rather-unhappy-adventures-molasses.html

i just read you tried some molassas. Here' a cute ditty on what happened when I tried molassas in my grow so I wonder if that's where your issue began. Some people have very good success with it......not I so I stick to Sweet which does me fine without the worries of molassas gone bad.

No comment about your nutes as I know nothing about them but wouldn't rule them out as a source of your issue due to the extremely high K amount in them......but that's strictly a guess because soil and soil nutes are NOT my strong point..

SILENCE!! :D

[dillhole]

I think I'm losing my mind :( I flushed the plants today and I was unable to get a runoff higher than 6. I started w/ plain water with just a pinch of hydrated lime. The runoff was 6. Then I remembered reading something from Jorge Cervantes saying that you can use up to 1/4 cup of hydrated lime per cubic foot of soil. So I used about that amount and the pH of the solution was off the charts. The test strip was black!

Frustrated, I used it. I followed it with a gallon of water (pH 7). The runoff was 6. WTF???? The only things I can think of that could cause this are:

1. Test strips are inaccurate for measuring a solution high in lime. Or,
2. There is an acid factory in my soil. Or,
3. I am a complete doofus.

If the grow fails at this point, I will still have enough smoke for our needs. So I wasn't afraid to try this. I'm just interested in learning for the next grow. There is something here I'm not understanding.

I will have Cannazyme, Rhizotonic, Reverse, and better soil and nutes for the next grow. Thanks for the recommendations Weedhound. I have learned so much during this grow that I must consider it a complete success. Even if the yield is a fraction of what it could have been.

P.S. Walter was my favorite, but Achmed is now. Silence! I kill you!

[Weedhound]

Make sure that everything you put into your pot from here on out is ph perfect......even if you can't straighten out the runoff, at least do your best to make sure it goes IN at the proper ph......they'll get some of the nutes anyway.

[stinkyattic]

Lime doesn't work as a soil flushing pH up solution. You need a bottle of pH up. Follow the flushing sticky for instructions.
There IS an acid factory in your soil if you run a soil based upon peat. It has a natural acidity that falls around pH 4.5-5.5.

[Weedhound]

Whats the story with lime and ph up stinkster?

[stinkyattic]

Lime only works properly IN the soil where it's sitting there preventing the acidity in the peat from becoming the dominant factor in soil pH, and feeding calcium to the plants, UNTIL IT IS USED UP. This happens in 4-8 weeks from first wetting, depending on a lot of factors. It is also a weak base, not a strong base, and you need a LOT more to neutralize acid.
pH up is a strong base, that dissociates into the metal ion (sodium, potassium, whatever you are using) plus a free -OH that can combine with the hydronium ions that are your functional acid in the solution, and neutralize them, because H+ + OH- => H2O.
So you use lime to stabilize soil pH preventatively, and pH up to change it when you observe a problem.

[Weedhound]

Thanks. :)

[stinkyattic]

My pleasure.

[dillhole]

I wish I had read that a few weeks ago. Live and learn, I guess.

I just found a website that sells nutes/additives in smaller, more affordable quantities. I ordered some Cannazyme and pH up. Maybe it'll come in soon enough to be of use.

It's funny, I've read more in the last two months than I have in the last two years. I thought I had this growing thing all figured out. Now I've come to realize that much of what I had read was bs. Now, thanks to fine folks like yourselves, I'm getting a clearer picture of what cannabis plants need.

Thanks again guys! Maybe someday I can repay you :jointsmile: