Why I, an ultra-liberal, oppose abortion

[overgrowthegovt]

I oppose it because I see no difference between it and stabbing your two-year-old you decide you don't want anymore. For me, a fetus is a living thing that deserves rights.

And I'm familiar with the argument that women should be allowed to do whatever they like with their bodies. I couldn't agree more--except that when you have a life growing inside you, it isn't just you that's concerned anymore. As a libertarian-leaner, I think you should have the right to bulldoze down your own house---but not if your children are inside it.

Also, what about the fathers? I'd be seriously pissed if somebody killed my child without consulting me.

I'm liberal on the vast majority of issues, but I see no reason why self-proclaimed liberals would declare their unequivocal support for pre-emptive infanticide.

[maladroit]

i don't like abortion either and i don't know anyone who does...it's disgusting

but i don't support an outright ban on abortion

[overgrowthegovt]

i don't like abortion either and i don't know anyone who does...it's disgusting

but i don't support an outright ban on abortion

Agreed...I think if the mother's life is threatened, or if the kid's going to be born without a brain, or if there was rape involved, then yeah.

But other than that, you get knocked up, you made your bed, so to speak.

And yes, in a way we've gone morally downhill since the Middle Ages....back then, they wouldn't hang a pregnant woman because they thought killing the innocent child would be immoral. Funny; we seem to have no such scruples today.

[maladroit]

if there was no legal access to abortion, young women would be killing their fetii and often themselves anyway with unsafe illegal abortions...our health care system should put resources into reducing abortion


the majority of abortions are done before the 10th week when the embryo (it's not a fetus yet) is less than five grams and 3cm long, and one third of abortions are performed before the 7th week when the embryo doesn't have a brain and looks like this:

[Breukelen advocaat]

A fetus is a parasitic entity feeding off it's host, and the host has the right to eject that freeloading parasite from her womb at any time.

[JakeMartinez]

Agreed...I think if the mother's life is threatened, or if the kid's going to be born without a brain, or if there was rape involved, then yeah.

But other than that, you get knocked up, you made your bed, so to speak.

And yes, in a way we've gone morally downhill since the Middle Ages....back then, they wouldn't hang a pregnant woman because they thought killing the innocent child would be immoral. Funny; we seem to have no such scruples today.

Yeah, but it was socially acceptable for men to have mistresses, fuck everything that walked, and mercilessly kill each other for the sake of "honor".

That's only the beginning of how fucked up we were in the middle ages.

And, honestly, I believe that we're in danger of overpopulating the world at the rate we're tearing through natural resources, so I could care less if someone gets an abortion.

[iamapatient]

In early America it was up to each state. Most states banned abortion but had exceptions for life of the mother, etc. Roe v Wade changed that and is why many Americans would like to see RvW repealed. Few states would have outright bans, most would have some exceptions based on the will of the people.

[maladroit]

wow...things haven't changed much since the middle ages

[iamapatient]

wow...things haven't changed much since the middle ages

Plenty has changed... :D

[overgrowthegovt]

A fetus is a parasitic entity feeding off it's host, and the host has the right to eject that freeloading parasite from her womb at any time.

Again, you could say the same about anyone under 18, really.

And yeah, I agree with it being legal, because we can't stop it and we can at least make sure they're safe, but I'd just rather they didn't, you know?

[overgrowthegovt]

Yeah, but it was socially acceptable for men to have mistresses, fuck everything that walked, and mercilessly kill each other for the sake of "honor".

That's only the beginning of how fucked up we were in the middle ages.

And, honestly, I believe that we're in danger of overpopulating the world at the rate we're tearing through natural resources, so I could care less if someone gets an abortion.

In places like Africa and India populations are soaring, but there's no reason for Canadians to abort their kids, since we actually shrink without immigration. The wealthier people are, the less they tend to breed, so the end of global poverty will greatly slow population growth. But alas, the West has an agenda, of course.

[JakeMartinez]

In a free market society, someone has to be poor and foot the bill for the people who are rich. You can't end poverty with something that generates poverty.

And, we're rapidly turning in to a globalized world, where even if the United States is the richest country in the world and our population keeps booming and booming, our citizens are depleting resources SOMEWHERE, if not here.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

abortion: it's no different than beef.




To start off, allow me to explain how the spirit of the hunt is correlated with abortions.


The spirit of the hunt is to honor the hunted, and treat them as if they were direct family members. you would not let a family member's body go to waste, when you needed to eat their flesh.

the idea is that if stem cells can still benefit humanity, than an aborted fetus is a buffalo and we MUST use all parts of the buffalo for the community. an aborted human child, i would think, would be stressed even more greatly that we do not let their life go to waste.


Stem cells could assist cancer patients, quadriplegics, diabetics, osteoporosis patients, AIDS patients, and who knows what else!

For all we KNOW, they could assist sex change patients in their transition.


I am pro choice, but anti-anti-stem cell research.


NO: we cannot simply sacrifice fetuses for the sake of research, HOWEVER we CAN NOT just throw those who ARE aborted, in the trash! THAT IS A DISRESPECT FOR LIFE ITSELF!


Abortions are going to happen weather it's legal or not, either by intent, or by accident. throwing away the aborted child is only an added insult to injury.


Research stem cells, allow women the choice of child bearing, and those who choose to abort their pregnancy should be allowed, so long as their aborted fetus is used for medicine and not just discarded and put to waste.

[Gatekeeper777]

Where would we be as a people if the mothers of Jesus, Budah or any other great spiritual leader went and got an abortion?
What if we inadvertantly killed the zygoat that was ment to reawaken the human mind or cure cancer or aids?
You play with fire you get burnt. There are many childless couples that would love to raise a child ( like myself and my wife) and get sick when we hear of abortion.
Abortion is the rape of a humans potential greatness.
Who knows maybe someone could have grown up to creat the next super duper skunk strain. but oh well he/she is fertilizer in the land fill.

[psychocat]

Given a choice between a woman having an abortion or bringing an unwanted and often resented child into this world then I have to be for abortion.

The rule should be that if a woman has two abortions in her lifetime (discounting abortions on the grounds of health or rape) then she should be sterilised. The same should apply to blokes who get women pregnant without regard for the consequences.

[Breukelen advocaat]

Where would we be as a people if the mothers of Jesus, Budah or any other great spiritual leader went and got an abortion?
What if we inadvertantly killed the zygoat that was ment to reawaken the human mind or cure cancer or aids? You play with fire you get burnt. There are many childless couples that would love to raise a child ( like myself and my wife) and get sick when we hear of abortion. Abortion is the rape of a humans potential greatness. Who knows maybe someone could have grown up to creat the next super duper skunk strain. but oh well he/she is fertilizer in the land fill.
There is a much greater chance that an unwanted child will turn out to be a mass murderer, than a great leader, scientist, or teacher.

Nobody should be forced to carry a fetus to term if they do not want to bear children. If the fetus' that became Hitler and Stalin had been flushed down the toilet, the world would have avoided much misery.

[maladroit]

forced sterilization seems a tad extreme...that's like forcing nosepickers to get their fingers amputated

how about first abortion $300, second abortion $3,000, third abortion $30,000?

[iamapatient]

forced sterilization seems a tad extreme...that's like forcing nosepickers to get their fingers amputated

how about first abortion $300, second abortion $3,000, third abortion $30,000?

Tax payers would have to foot the bill...

[Gatekeeper777]

My ex ol'lady was forced sterilized. she lost her two kids to their fathers and one died due to lack of medical care, so when she was havig her last one C section the doc tied her tubes and told her when she woke up. YOUR DONE!
HO!

[psychocat]

forced sterilization seems a tad extreme...that's like forcing nosepickers to get their fingers amputated

how about first abortion $300, second abortion $3,000, third abortion $30,000?

It would certainly make some women and men take contraception a bit more seriously.


And nosepicking. :p

[BeefsMyFav]

There is a much greater chance that an unwanted child will turn out to be a mass murderer, than a great leader, scientist, or teacher.

Really? says who? you? is there any data that proves this?



Nobody should be forced to carry a fetus to term if they do not want to bear children. If the fetus' that became Hitler and Stalin had been flushed down the toilet, the world would have avoided much misery.

On the other hand we've probably already flushed the cures for cancer and hiv down the toilet

And no one is "forced" to carry a fetus, the person chose to take part in the act that creates the fetus most likely knowing the possible outcomes....rape possibly a different story

[iamapatient]

It would certainly make some women and men take contraception a bit more seriously.


And nosepicking. :p

Only if tax payers don't have to "pick" up the bill. There'd be less people against abortion if tax payers didn't have to fund it...

[Breukelen advocaat]

Really? says who? you? is there any data that proves this?
No "data" is even necessary. The world already has many more idiots, than really great people. To think that we'll be better off with more unhappiness does not make sense.

On the other hand we've probably already flushed the cures for cancer and hiv down the toilet
Do you really think that having a more crowded world would result in advancement of the sciences, and less medical problems? I believe that the opposite is true.

And no one is "forced" to carry a fetus, the person chose to take part in the act that creates the fetus most likely knowing the possible outcomes....rape possibly a different story
If birth control fails, then abortion is the next logical step. Additionally, people's situations change: Loss of job, divorce, illness, and many other factors contribute to the reasons that people decide to terminate a pregnancy.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

Where would we be as a people if the mothers of Jesus, Budah or any other great spiritual leader went and got an abortion?
What if we inadvertantly killed the zygoat that was ment to reawaken the human mind or cure cancer or aids?
You play with fire you get burnt. There are many childless couples that would love to raise a child ( like myself and my wife) and get sick when we hear of abortion.
Abortion is the rape of a humans potential greatness.
Who knows maybe someone could have grown up to creat the next super duper skunk strain. but oh well he/she is fertilizer in the land fill.


No offense is intended in this statement, however, sticking spirituality into physical laws is arrogant sir.


Jesus, Buddha, Gandhi, whoever have you, was a spirit, not a fucking embryo. ANY body will do for the spiritual goals!

the spirit destined to save humanity is humanity itself. we are responsible for only our selves, and to think that we can be saved by another outside influence is not only weak, but the only reason we might ever need an outside influence to save us!

given than detrimental logic, there will be no outside force to save ourselves. we must save ourselves, BY ourselves, by HELPING EACH OTHER.


no amount of abortions can prevent a particular soul from entering into life, if that particular soul is truly intended to exist.


the only rape of the human potential is what the individual chooses to ignore in the individual's own life.

[GoldenBoy812]

Being the classical liberal that i am, i tend to support the option for a woman to have an abortion. Yet...

Being the republican that i am, states rights are very important to me. This is why i believe Roe vs. Wade should be overturned.

Its not that i believe in circumstances, but more so that a person should not have an issue as sensitive as abortion thrown down their throat if you are an American citizen. Here we as citizens of this great country have the opportunnity to move a thousand miles in another direction if we please, therefore if yo do not believe in the laws of your state, move to one that suits your beliefs.

Democracy begins and ends with the states. What better way is there to bring more dilligence to the electoral college. I mean, they have robbed you of your vice president and senate, this just evens things up...

[JakeMartinez]

You know, the argument that "She knew what she was getting in to when she was having sex" is essentially a way of punishing women for not being able to say no to sex, or a guy saying "Come on, honey, can't we go bareback just this once?". That's great. I know anecdotal evidence doesn't amount to shit for most people, but most of the women I know have been forced into sex multiple times by their boyfriends.

Just because she didn't say "no" and didn't close her legs doesn't mean that she's a whore or that she was a willing participant. Many women don't know how to say no to a man in the bedroom, ESPECIALLY rape victims (odd paradox, isn't it?).

Anyway, the point of that is that I believe it's a woman's right to choose whether or not to abort a pregnancy.

The child has just as much a chance of growing up to be a "bad" person as it does to grow up and be a "good" person, so that's a dead argument.

And, personally, I don't believe life begins until brain activity starts...anyone know when that happens during a pregnancy?

[maladroit]

hey GB

what is the highest priority: state rights or individual rights?

[DaBudhaStank]

Well well, I'm glad to see everyone's doing well here! haha!

[overgrowthegovt]

All pretty solid arguments, people, but I think we can all probably agree on a stance against late-term or partial-birth abortions....I had an EXTREMELY heated argument with my roommate on this one, since he says there's nothing wrong with having an abortion the day before it's due.

Now, try and defend THAT one, please. Perhaps life doesn't begin as soon as the sperm hits the eggs, but it definitely begins somewhere in the womb.

[DaBudhaStank]

All pretty solid arguments, people, but I think we can all probably agree on a stance against late-term or partial-birth abortions....I had an EXTREMELY heated argument with my roommate on this one, since he says there's nothing wrong with having an abortion the day before it's due.

Now, try and defend THAT one, please. Perhaps life doesn't begin as soon as the sperm hits the eggs, but it definitely begins somewhere in the womb.

True that mate. I'm pro-choice but god DAMN, if someone really wants to cut a 6 pound body out of themselves, they really need help. Jesus, even getting thrown down the stairs halfway through is better than THAT, and that's sad. But then, I'm all for contraception. Don't want a baby? Pretty easy to avoid it; use a rubber or get on birth control (just make sure you take it right, nothing worse than fucking a girl and having her say "Did I take my pill today? .....yeah, probably.")

[overgrowthegovt]

True that mate. I'm pro-choice but god DAMN, if someone really wants to cut a 6 pound body out of themselves, they really need help. Jesus, even getting thrown down the stairs halfway through is better than THAT, and that's sad. But then, I'm all for contraception. Don't want a baby? Pretty easy to avoid it; use a rubber or get on birth control (just make sure you take it right, nothing worse than fucking a girl and having her say "Did I take my pill today? .....yeah, probably.")

Oh yeah, I'm all for contraception, of course...nothing would be better for Africa or India than several million air-dropped rubbers.

I feel very strange being pro-life when I despise basically every single other conservative viewpoint....that's why I had to specify in the thread title, so as not to be assumed to be an ultra-Christian gun-collector or anything like that.

[DaBudhaStank]

...nothing would be better for Africa or India than several million air-dropped rubbers.


hahahahahahah. Don't forget China bro, they like to get rid of little girls since they aren't as effective on the rice paddies as boys. Now they have a serious population problem because their men outnumber their women by 30 million. Some fucked up shit.

[overgrowthegovt]

hahahahahahah. Don't forget China bro, they like to get rid of little girls since they aren't as effective on the rice paddies as boys. Now they have a serious population problem because their men outnumber their women by 30 million. Some fucked up shit.

Seems like free love is the only answer to that one...can't give 30 million guys going without some tail; need to share the available supply.

[FeedmeWeed]

Wow. am I the only one who finds the hypocrisy of this issue to be ironic?

We (Cannabis enthusiasts) have been punished, prosecuted, persecuted and oppressed for many years because of our CONSENT to partake in an activity. However, certain other people feel this activity is "bad" and "harmful" and that it can hurt us. These people feel the need to tell us that WE, the consenting individuals can no longer smoke our herb because THEY feel it is bad.

now to abortion. I am not particularly fond of it and would avoid having one at all costs. However, do I feel that I need to shove my values down someone else's throat? no, because I'm not a hypocritical douche.

moral of the story: don't try to push your values on other people, regardless of how important you think your values are. We as a community cannot legally smoke because other people think it is bad. Is this fair? no, so dont perpetuate the problem by forcing your shitty values on other people.

if you think abortion is bad, thats fine; don't have one and everything will be fine.

[apocolips31]

A fetus is a parasitic entity feeding off it's host, and the host has the right to eject that freeloading parasite from her womb at any time.

With that logic lets go ahead and kill every crippled or mentally disabled person.

[McDanger]

With that logic lets go ahead and kill every crippled or mentally disabled person.

Once we get socialized health care it will start.

[McDanger]

I feel very strange being pro-life when I despise basically every single other conservative viewpoint....that's why I had to specify in the thread title, so as not to be assumed to be an ultra-Christian gun-collector or anything like that.[/QUOTE]

Why do you have a problem with freedom loving gun collectors?

[psychocat]

Wow. am I the only one who finds the hypocrisy of this issue to be ironic?

We (Cannabis enthusiasts) have been punished, prosecuted, persecuted and oppressed for many years because of our CONSENT to partake in an activity. However, certain other people feel this activity is "bad" and "harmful" and that it can hurt us. These people feel the need to tell us that WE, the consenting individuals can no longer smoke our herb because THEY feel it is bad.

now to abortion. I am not particularly fond of it and would avoid having one at all costs. However, do I feel that I need to shove my values down someone else's throat? no, because I'm not a hypocritical douche.

moral of the story: don't try to push your values on other people, regardless of how important you think your values are. We as a community cannot legally smoke because other people think it is bad. Is this fair? no, so dont perpetuate the problem by forcing your shitty values on other people.

if you think abortion is bad, thats fine; don't have one and everything will be fine.

Well said. :thumbsup:

[overgrowthegovt]

Wow. am I the only one who finds the hypocrisy of this issue to be ironic?

We (Cannabis enthusiasts) have been punished, prosecuted, persecuted and oppressed for many years because of our CONSENT to partake in an activity. However, certain other people feel this activity is "bad" and "harmful" and that it can hurt us. These people feel the need to tell us that WE, the consenting individuals can no longer smoke our herb because THEY feel it is bad.

now to abortion. I am not particularly fond of it and would avoid having one at all costs. However, do I feel that I need to shove my values down someone else's throat? no, because I'm not a hypocritical douche.

moral of the story: don't try to push your values on other people, regardless of how important you think your values are. We as a community cannot legally smoke because other people think it is bad. Is this fair? no, so dont perpetuate the problem by forcing your shitty values on other people.

if you think abortion is bad, thats fine; don't have one and everything will be fine.

But see, it's wrong for people to force their values on others if it pertains to something that harms nobody else....drug use, prostitution, and other victimless crimes should not be prohibited because that is, as you say, an unjust imposition of values. However, if the action in question does harm to somebody else, it is and should be criminal....we should be allowed to hurt ourselves, but not to go out and shoot somebody. Fetuses are not given the respect they deserve as a living human being that ought to be protected from arbitrary murder. I suppose murder laws are a case of values being unjustly pushed too, eh?

[psychocat]

But see, it's wrong for people to force their values on others if it pertains to something that harms nobody else....drug use, prostitution, and other victimless crimes should not be prohibited because that is, as you say, an unjust imposition of values. However, if the action in question does harm to somebody else, it is and should be criminal....we should be allowed to hurt ourselves, but not to go out and shoot somebody. Fetuses are not given the respect they deserve as a living human being that ought to be protected from arbitrary murder. I suppose murder laws are a case of values being unjustly pushed too, eh?

I think you will find that the laws covering abortion are very different to those covering murder.
Just because it wouldn't be your choice does not mean you have a right to impose your choices on others.

[Breukelen advocaat]

But see, it's wrong for people to force their values on others if it pertains to something that harms nobody else....drug use, prostitution, and other victimless crimes should not be prohibited because that is, as you say, an unjust imposition of values. However, if the action in question does harm to somebody else, it is and should be criminal....we should be allowed to hurt ourselves, but not to go out and shoot somebody. Fetuses are not given the respect they deserve as a living human being that ought to be protected from arbitrary murder. I suppose murder laws are a case of values being unjustly pushed too, eh?
Crime rates went down a lot in the 1990's, some 15-20 years after Roe vs. Wade was passed, and many people believe it was because there were less unwanted children being born who were likely to become criminals. This is one of many cases for keeping abortion legal.

New York City is safer than it's been since the 1950's.

[overgrowthegovt]

I think you will find that the laws covering abortion are very different to those covering murder.
Just because it wouldn't be your choice does not mean you have a right to impose your choices on others.

Please explain the difference between abortion and murder. I know it hasn't been born yet, but can anyone really argue that life only begins when they exit the womb? Babies kick in there, and yet I've heard people say that it's not at all immoral to kill it as long as it hasn't gone out the canal yet.

I'm sorry, but crushing a cocoon is killing a butterfly.

A woman gets full sovereignty over her body, but not when somebody's living in it. I really don't see how her opinion is at all relevent to ensuring the healthy birth of the person inside her, that can then be given up for adoption if necessary.

[Breukelen advocaat]

A fetus has no awareness. Even a young infant lacks the brain development that is needed to be a fully conscious person.

[DaBudhaStank]

I'm pro-choice. I don't really believe in god or an afterlife so I have no qualms with any religious implications implicent in abortion. Sometimes it's necessary, sometimes it's conveniant, sometimes its because people are fools. Do I support women just getting knocked up and getting abortions? Of course not, I'd probably cap it at a one time thing cuz if you dont learn a lesson after THAT shit, you ARE retarded. If I got a girl knocked up I'd ask if she wanted an abortion. I made a mistake, fair enough, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna ruin three lives by letting this kid into the world. Sorry, life isn't always a blessing. If anyone thinks so, go to Africa and say that to their faces. Besides, the pro-life movement is just another form of prohibition, and we all know how well that works. Very, very well. It almost always stops completely whatever it is being prohibited.

/end sarcasm. No, prohibition of any kind is pure shenanigans and only encourages dissent.

[FeedmeWeed]

But see, it's wrong for people to force their values on others if it pertains to something that harms nobody else....drug use, prostitution, and other victimless crimes should not be prohibited because that is, as you say, an unjust imposition of values. However, if the action in question does harm to somebody else, it is and should be criminal....we should be allowed to hurt ourselves, but not to go out and shoot somebody. Fetuses are not given the respect they deserve as a living human being that ought to be protected from arbitrary murder. I suppose murder laws are a case of values being unjustly pushed too, eh?

man, I'm so sick of the "oh life is SO beautiful and sacred and everything is so happy and joyous and to kill a clump of cells is murder!"

we can argue about what constitutes a "living being" all day, but the simple matter is people are more pissed about a clump of cells than the 16,000 yes thats sixteen thousand kids that die every single day from hunger alone. These are kids we are talking about and these are only deaths from hunger, not disease and war.


its amazing at how well the corporate media can dissuade people from the REAL issues to something as silly, minute, and utterly ridiculous as the loss of a clump of cells

[FeedmeWeed]

A woman gets full sovereignty over her body, but not when somebody's living in it. I really don't see how her opinion is at all relevent to ensuring the healthy birth of the person inside her, that can then be given up for adoption if necessary.


wait let me get this straight. Her opinion, is of no relevance, while you, some random person who is not her, does not have the same personality, desires, needs, economic/social status, or intelligence, should have any say in the matter?

dude, think about that for a bit. basically your saying that her opinion doesn't matter but your does, thats pretty ass-backwards my friend

[FreshNugz]

wait let me get this straight. Her opinion, is of no relevance, while you, some random person who is not her, does not have the same personality, desires, needs, economic/social status, or intelligence, should have any say in the matter?

dude, think about that for a bit. basically your saying that her opinion doesn't matter but your does, thats pretty ass-backwards my friend

indeed:cool:

[psychocat]

Please explain the difference between abortion and murder. I know it hasn't been born yet, but can anyone really argue that life only begins when they exit the womb? Babies kick in there, and yet I've heard people say that it's not at all immoral to kill it as long as it hasn't gone out the canal yet.

I'm sorry, but crushing a cocoon is killing a butterfly.

A woman gets full sovereignty over her body, but not when somebody's living in it. I really don't see how her opinion is at all relevent to ensuring the healthy birth of the person inside her, that can then be given up for adoption if necessary.

There is a very simple difference between you and I.
You believe a human life to be something extremely valuable, I believe it to be unimportant , I feel this way simply because there are already too many damn people as it is.

[RobPA]

Im not a woman so im not gonna start to try and even make any decision for one.

Comming from a fiscal conservative and a moral democrat (libertarian).

[overgrowthegovt]

I can see I'm not going to convince anybody (and the one implication that I'm simply a tool of the corporate media was quite infuriating, as I consider that the worst insult possible), I will say this....I don't think it should be illegal, because as somebody said, that's just another form of prohibition, which never has and never will work. I'd just really rather they didn't and it makes sad to think of anything getting killed....somebody pointed out that it's a clump of cells; well, we're all just clumps of cells, really.

I will end on this note, though. Breukelen advocate said that a fetus is not a fully conscious being, and he also said that a newborn infant isn't, either. In that case, I suggest beginning the movement for a woman's right to stab her newborn child, as long as it is under 6 months old, where full consciousness begins (I don't know when exactly it begins--just making a point). I think the movement will get a large following: newborn babies do not, after all, have a self-conscious awareness of the world, and it is, after all, the mother's choice, so I'm sure they'll be setting up stab-before-6-months clinics soon.

[thcbongman]

I think it comes down to a choice of a woman because it's them who will bear the responsibilites and consequences of their action. With that said, let's say abortion is illegal and every woman that is pregnant has to bear a child regardless of their financial, mental state how fit they are to be a mother. The ones that are irresponsible, that end up killing their babies, or not taking adequate of their child, they are in trouble. Are those people who advocate pro-life, would they do their part to help these children? I'm inclined not to think so......resulting in health and human services being more burdened than it already is.

[psychocat]

On a side note

http://boards.cannabis.com/womens-issues/167209-abortion.html

[FeedmeWeed]

I can see I'm not going to convince anybody (and the one implication that I'm simply a tool of the corporate media was quite infuriating, as I consider that the worst insult possible), I will say this....I don't think it should be illegal, because as somebody said, that's just another form of prohibition, which never has and never will work. I'd just really rather they didn't and it makes sad to think of anything getting killed....somebody pointed out that it's a clump of cells; well, we're all just clumps of cells, really.

yes its sad when things die, buts that is nature

this brings up some deeper philosophical questions. Say a man has just received a large amount of money an is interested in purchasing a new sports car. He decided to go through with his purchase and goes for a drive.
As he is driving his brand new car, it breaks down on the train tracks. He gets out to inspect his vehicle when he hears yelling coming from down the tracks. He sees a young child stuck on the track and in dire need oh help. But then he sees a train coming! he has to make a choice between saving his car and saving the child. He just bought this car and doesn't want it to go to waste so he decides to push his car out of the way, and the young child die.

Now was he responsible for the death? I mean, he didn't actually kill the child, but easily could have saved him. Its a question of passive vs active participation. You passivley kill things everyday without your knowledge. Just because you don't break out a knife and stab someone doesn't mean your not doing harm to someone out there in the world.

the point is, thousands of kids die everyday and you have the power to save many of them. If you feel the man in that story did nothing wrong, then thats fine; however, if you feel the man is at fault, then you need to stop worrying about a few "precious clumps of cells" and worry about the living, breathing, feeling humans being that exist right now and are in need of your help.
So next time your shoving a cheeseburger down your throat talking about how bad abortion is and how sad it is when something dies, remember that someone else died because they didn't have a burger to eat (are you a vegan by the way? it would be hypocritical of you not to be)



I will end on this note, though. Breukelen advocate said that a fetus is not a fully conscious being, and he also said that a newborn infant isn't, either. In that case, I suggest beginning the movement for a woman's right to stab her newborn child, as long as it is under 6 months old, where full consciousness begins (I don't know when exactly it begins--just making a point). I think the movement will get a large following: newborn babies do not, after all, have a self-conscious awareness of the world, and it is, after all, the mother's choice, so I'm sure they'll be setting up stab-before-6-months clinics soon.

oh come on man, please don't insult us. We just don't have disillusion of this happy perfect world where life is this sacred beautiful gift meant to be cherished and praised at all times. There are many kids that would be better off having being terminated at conception than dying slowly and painfully.

If you really care about life so much and loathe the thought of people dying then abortion should be least of your worries. This is what bothers many of us, anti-abortion people who get all up in arms about such a silly issue but don't seem to be bothered by the systematic execution of innocent civilians in Congo or the impoverished, starving, disease strucken communities that are being painfully wiped out.

Excuse me for getting all humanitarian on you guys but if you care about life so much, focus on something that actually matters

[overgrowthegovt]

Feedmeweed....I am a vegetarian (too hedonistic to be a vegan; nobody's perfect). And yes, I agree that there are much bigger problems, but that doesn't really take away from this. It's very easy to triviliaze basically anything by bringing up the situation in Africa, but that doesn't make everything else meaningless. If a man in Canada is shot, telling his family about the hundreds who died that day in Zaire is simply not going to fly. The impoverishment of the third world saddens me on a daily basis and if I had any money whatsoever I'd do what I could. That doesn't mean pre-emptive infanticide doesn't sadden me, though.

[FeedmeWeed]

by the way overgrowthe govt. what have you don't to help the cause of life?

how much money have you donated to foster care? I mean, theres a lot of kids out there without families and group homes don't receive a ton of funding, have you helped them out?

how about how many kids have you adopted? theres thousands of them out there that need families, why don't you step up to the plate.

if you life in a state that allows couples to adopt would you vote against it? I certainly hope not since thats one more family that can take a few of the over 100 thousand (one hundred thousand) kids up for adoption in the US alone.

Its sure easy to whine about how bad it is but its a whole 'nother level to step up and do something about it

[FeedmeWeed]

Feedmeweed....I am a vegetarian (too hedonistic to be a vegan; nobody's perfect). And yes, I agree that there are much bigger problems, but that doesn't really take away from this. It's very easy to triviliaze basically anything by bringing up the situation in Africa, but that doesn't make everything else meaningless. If a man in Canada is shot, telling his family about the hundreds who died that day in Zaire is simply not going to fly. The impoverishment of the third world saddens me on a daily basis and if I had any money whatsoever I'd do what I could. That doesn't mean pre-emptive infanticide doesn't sadden me, though.

don't act on emotion, act with rational thought

[overgrowthegovt]

by the way overgrowthe govt. what have you don't to help the cause of life?

how much money have you donated to foster care? I mean, theres a lot of kids out there without families and group homes don't receive a ton of funding, have you helped them out?

how about how many kids have you adopted? theres thousands of them out there that need families, why don't you step up to the plate.

if you life in a state that allows couples to adopt would you vote against it? I certainly hope not since thats one more family that can take a few of the over 100 thousand (one hundred thousand) kids up for adoption in the US alone.

Its sure easy to whine about how bad it is but its a whole 'nother level to step up and do something about it

Well, one reason any efforts by me would be absolutely futile is that I appear to have not one supporter, except those who also think gays should be lynched. Being 18 years old, I haven't adopted many, I'm afraid, and being very near broke and caring about a number of causes, abortion probably not falling in the top ten, they haven't gotten a whole lot of money from me. And I'll say it again, I agree abortion should be legal; I just have personal qualms is all, and I wish people weren't so flippant about it.

[overgrowthegovt]

don't act on emotion, act with rational thought

I think a balance between the two is a good way to live life...people who triviliaze emotion tend to forget that life wouldn't be worth anything without it. I can think of love as neurons firing or I can think of it as a tender and beautiful phenomenon that connects two souls. People talk about how suspension of logical faculties is the root of all atrocity, but suspension of emotion is just as devastating. Long live Shelley and Keats.

[FeedmeWeed]

I respect your opinion overgrowthegovt, and I apologize if anything I said offended you in any way.

We can dance around the questions going in a circle all day but its not going to get us anywhere. Yes it is sad when things die and yes we can argue over what constitutes life and what constitutes actually killing life but circular logic isn't going to get us very far.

The real question is "Do you think the world would be a better place, or a worse place with abortion?"

Personally, I feel abortion's pros outweigh the cons and do good service to our society. If you feel otherwise, that is fine, but please don't eliminate others choice to choose, because people have done it to our community and it sucks- we both know that. abortion is painful, you are correct there my friend, but I feel the pain it causes in the short run is less than the pain in the long run without it.

EDIT: and you are very right my friend, emotions are very nice, wouldnt be worth living without them. But theres a difference between acting on your emotions, and having emotions. I am not telling you to be an emotionless robot, I just want you to actively and thoroughly think thinks out before acting.

Emotions are great, no argument there, but they can cloud your rationality.

[overgrowthegovt]

I respect your opinion overgrowthegovt, and I apologize if anything I said offended you in any way.

We can dance around the questions going in a circle all day but its not going to get us anywhere. Yes it is sad when things die and yes we can argue over what constitutes life and what constitutes actually killing life but circular logic isn't going to get us very far.

The real question is "Do you think the world would be a better place, or a worse place with abortion?"

Personally, I feel abortion's pros outweigh the cons and do good service to our society. If you feel otherwise, that is fine, but please don't eliminate others choice to choose, because people have done it to our community and it sucks- we both know that. abortion is painful, you are correct there my friend, but I feel the pain it causes in the short run is less than the pain in the long run without it.

EDIT: and you are very right my friend, emotions are very nice, wouldnt be worth living without them. But theres a difference between acting on your emotions, and having emotions. I am not telling you to be an emotionless robot, I just want you to actively and thoroughly think thinks out before acting.

Emotions are great, no argument there, but they can cloud your rationality.

I respect your opinion too, and don't worry, I wasn't really offended; yeah, there are pros to abortion, I know; I was just trying to argue the cons because they seem to be largely ignored. And yeah, I'm not wanting them to prohibit anything, believe me. Nice discussion, my friend.