Mythology, religions, gods....

[naturalmystic]

This is my theory on gods, mythology, religion ect..

A long long time ago, extra terrestrials landed on earth, discovered this race of humanoids. And decided to control them, and control certain areas. Basically rule them and the area. These humanoids saw these extra-terrestrials as 'gods'. Soon the humanoids are worshipping these 'aliens'. After awhile, the extra terrestrials leave earth. Who knows where they went. But eventually these 'gods' are gone, and all that's left are myths.

The egyptians were VERY involved with these extra terrestrials. This explains the great pyramids. I'm not sure the purpose, but i'm sure that the extra terrestrials had a hand in building them. Not only did it take massive amounts of labor to create, but they line up directly with certain astrological items in the sky.

I'm still forming an opinion about Atlantis, but lately i've been thinking that it was an extra terrestrial city. That was around the same time the extra terrestrials came down and began ruling the people. But when they decided to leave, they destroyed the city.

If you can think about it. The real 'alien' sightings began around the same time the nuclear age was beginning. Now this suggests that: the 'ufos' were actually government crafts being sited by people. Or that the aliens had been around previously but have recently stopped coming becasue they are scared of being blown up.

The reason earth has so many visitations by the aliens (no matter what race) is becasue earth is so diverse. They are interested in the diversity in earth. No other planet is as diverse as the earth. There is a theory i recently heard that the orange color in hair was injected by aliens thousasnds of years ago.


I BELIEVE THAT SOMETHING HUGE IS GOING TO HAPPEN WITHIN 10 YEARS, REGARDING ALIENS. MAYBE AN INVASION, MAYBE A TREATY, I'M NOT SURE, BUT SOMETHING WILL HAPPEN THAT WILL CHANGE LIFE ON EARTH AS WE KNOW IT FOREVER.

discuss...

[Nullific]

Ever hear of the Sumerians?

They believe in a planet that orbits two solar-systems called Nibiru which is home to two races; the Anu and the Nephillium.
Every 3600 years this celestial body enters our solar system. According to Sumerian mythology the Anu came to earth and created a slave race, humans, by bonding their genetic material with that of homoerectus. The Anu were described as god-like, resembling humans only about twice as large. They used this slave race to mine gold and restore Nibirus atmousphere. After they were through they handed control of Earth over to the humans, but flooded it in attempt to wipe them out.

Nibiru was supposed to return in spring of 2003.

[Encatuse]

Man. I don't even know what to say. There's a quote.. It's something like:

"Don't open your mind too much or people will throw a lot rubbish in it"

[F L E S H]

I BELIEVE THAT SOMETHING HUGE IS GOING TO HAPPEN WITHIN 10 YEARS, REGARDING ALIENS. MAYBE AN INVASION, MAYBE A TREATY, I'M NOT SURE, BUT SOMETHING WILL HAPPEN THAT WILL CHANGE LIFE ON EARTH AS WE KNOW IT FOREVER.

People have been saying that for thousands of years, and nothing Earth shattering ever happened. It's relatively well-documented that in the years leading up to the year 1000, people in Europe were freaking out because they thought the second coming of Christ would happen very soon. Nothing happened... obviously :D

As for the pyramids, it's entirely possible for only humans to have built them, even with crappy technology. No self-respecting Egyptologist would think otherwise. The Egyptians were simply very skilled at mathematics and astrology ans astrnomy, as were the Hindus, the Mayans, the Aztecs, and others.

To believe in things like extra-terrestrials is to minimize the potential of human beings. Why is it so hard to believe for some that humans were just as intelligent, maybe even more, than we generally are today? I believe that humans are capable of so much than what many think.

WE are God. WE are capable of anything, as long as we work together under a competent and benevolent leadership which is capable of directing all ur energies in one direction, instead of fighting amongst ourselves.

[weirdo79]

I do believe in extra terrestials. However I dont think many if any humans know any of their intentions. My personal belief is they do exactly what we do to animals "tag and release" for study. But I could be wrong its just a hypothesis.

One thing that is kind of freaky about the Sumerian's though is that there the only ancient society that knew how many planets there were in our solar system (and they knew which one we were on) in all their writings from their scribes when the Sumerians were asked "How do you know such things" they'de respond (in their writings of course not literally) "Simple the Ananaki told us". I wouldnt presuppose to know exactly the connotations behind this and also Nullific if you go deeper then website you'll find alot of "slave race" comments to not have much validity. The actual myth according to verifiable Sumerian writings is that the Ananaki were banished by their forebearers off the planet. For becoming to "hedonistic". That is according to any archeology studies I've seen on the subject. Not to say that some might be correct (ie: I've read those books that suggest this(your statements) and checked authors) none of them are archeologists so I'll stick to them(archeologists) and try not to use too much supposition like alot of these authors do. Much like I stick to archeologists when it comes to religion as well (for interpreting "bibles" and other ancient writings).

Please don't take any of that as hostile or "not believing" you. I just find most of their hypothesis' too vague and not backed by the greater general knowledge of Sumerian culture and writings (we have as of yet to decipher all their writings after all). However I do believe the "ananaki" existed ,I am still "up in the air" over who exactly they were, as is every archeologist I've spoken too or read up on. Which is alot as archeology is a fave of mine as is any ancient history. (biology, mythology, anthropology and archeology are my passions and of course the namesake of this site ;) ). But those people do have interesting hypothesis.

[naturalmystic]

I have recently spoken with an Archeologist. He thinks that all this 'alien' business is bull-hockey. That's not to say that there are no aliens out there, but he doesn't believe the aliens had anything to do with the pyramids and or any such thing like that. He said that inside some of the pyramids there is 'gang' vandalism. He also said that there were other structures, obviously attempts to build pyramids, just no success. It's not like the pyramids came from no where.

I just don't know what to believe anymore. Like weirdo, biology, mythology, anthropology and archeology are all very interesting to me. And it's interesting to put clues together and put hypotheseis together to see what sort of conclusions can be made.

[weirdo79]

I've never understood personally why people insist on alot of structures being built by aliens or with alien help. Advanced math and measuring isnt a new invention at all "after all". Or why people think only within the last 1000 years or so that "america" was discovered etc or that the world was flat (when the ancient greeks knew long ago the world was round even without using math, simple logic "they could see the masts of ships sailing over the horizon before they could see the hulls). Christopher Columbus enthusiasts should be shot out of a cannon in my estimation with those who claim "evolution is just a theory" (with no comprehension of the scientific definition of theory) he he ;) My favourite is when people say Darwin was wrong on a lot of things so evolution is too, so was Freud that doesnt invalidate psychiatry or psychology har har har....

[F L E S H]

I've never understood personally why people insist on alot of structures being built by aliens or with alien help. Advanced math and measuring isnt a new invention at all "after all". Or why people think only within the last 1000 years or so that "america" was discovered etc or that the world was flat (when the ancient greeks knew long ago the world was round even without using math, simple logic "they could see the masts of ships sailing over the horizon before they could see the hulls). Christopher Columbus enthusiasts should be shot out of a cannon in my estimation with those who claim "evolution is just a theory" (with no comprehension of the scientific definition of theory) he he ;) My favourite is when people say Darwin was wrong on a lot of things so evolution is too, so was Freud that doesnt invalidate psychiatry or psychology har har har....
My point exactly. Humans have understood the basics of math and geometry for millenia, it didn't just happen yesterday. The only difference between now and then is that a lot more people today know about than thousands of years ago. But the mathematic principles are the same.

[naturalmystic]

Maybe people now a days, don't realize how smart people thousands of years ago actually were. I'm just an extremely confused individual as you may have noticed. Maybe trying to put all these puzzle pieces together is pointless.

[weirdo79]

One thing I do say is though, is "MAYBE" aliens helped "BUT" was it really needed or perhaps they were just "hinting" at a better formula type thing. But thats just one of many hypothesis. My strongest belief is that we did it ourselves and that aliens are just studying us like we study animals. (or as I shudder to use this reference but the g/f watches the show religiously) Like the people in Star Trek do too "pre warp" societies....(I think I choked on some vomit saying that.....never agree to watch a show with your g/f on a regular basis if you don't ask what it is first.....)

[naturalmystic]

oh come on, star trek is good stuff.

But i do agree with you, 'aliens' are doing/did what we do to animals in the wild. Only were the animals in the wild. I'm sure they've made personal contact with maybe even our governments of the world. But would you contact a race that would blow you out of the sky at first sight?

[weirdo79]

ok ok , I will admit I like the OLD star trek with the styrofoam bouncing rocks (I laugh uproariously when they bounce off people and they dont go down). And, I've always wondered about one thing that maybe would come to light one day. That whole "roswell incident" if its true(which by empirical evidence and those that "worked" on the crash say that have retired it is). I just wonder if perhaps thats exactly what happened to precipitate a meeting, perhaps we did shoot them down. As the government of any nation would HAVE to cover it up in order to not seem so jumpy on the trigger. For anyone who thinks UFO's and aliens are all a bunch of farcical nonsense I suggest looking up two especially public and convincing events. The Shag Harbour incident and Lights over Phoenix (which was shown on major tv and even had an Air Force captain come out publicly with a NASA spokesperson admitting to alien "artifacts" being found(a week after the incident after no one bought the official "flares" line) CNN runs the coverage every year. I'm surprised more people havent seen it personally.) :)

[weirdo79]

Oh and the Shag Harbour incident had an entire town as witnesses and no 500 population town either. As well as most(witnesses) being RCMP officers , firemen, soldiers etc. They had thought a plane had gone down so everyone was mobilized to help. My favourite is when people say "we have technology that could have done this" when the incidences specified clearly reject even "cold war" technology or even today's tech, you would have thought they'de have used ONE of these "new technologies" in the following decades(if it was "us") but nope....

[The Green Chronic]

Ever hear of the Sumerians?

They believe in a planet that orbits two solar-systems called Nibiru which is home to two races; the Anu and the Nephillium.
Every 3600 years this celestial body enters our solar system. According to Sumerian mythology the Anu came to earth and created a slave race, humans, by bonding their genetic material with that of homoerectus. The Anu were described as god-like, resembling humans only about twice as large. They used this slave race to mine gold and restore Nibirus atmousphere. After they were through they handed control of Earth over to the humans, but flooded it in attempt to wipe them out.

Nibiru was supposed to return in spring of 2003.

I wasn't going to post in this thread, because my personal beliefs are very controversial and I don't want some rabid christian fundMENTAList shoving christian mythology down my throat. That is until I saw the word "Nephillium" and talk about the ancient sumerian gods. Now things are on a little more familiar turf.

First let me get this out in the open, just so everyone knows. I am a Traditional Satanist, or a Theistic Satanist, whichever term makes you feel more comfortable.

That's to say I do respect and agree with a lot of what Anton Lavey wrote down in his infamous book, The Satanic Bible, but I do not affiliate myself with the Church of Satan and I am by no stretch of the imagination a Lavayan Satanist AKA Modern Satanist.

I do believe that there is an actual being called Satan. I have taken him as my God, and I do worship him. I also believe in the High Princes of Hell, those being Satan, Azazel, Astaroth, Beezulbub. Not exactly in that order of hierarchy.

Now if you visit This site (www.joyofsatan.com) you'll see a more in depth look at my general beliefs, every satanist being different.

But long story short.

I believe that a race of extra terrestrials, the Nephilim, being twice the size of a human, created a hybrid between cromagnon man and Nephilim by impregnating cromagnon women, this is how we have modern humans, google the words "Moon Child" or "Star Child" for some interesting evidence backing my belief.

I also believe that there are "Aliens" or for here after refered to as "Gods" working against humanity, one of the biggest being Jehovah, The Christian God, I won't go on about why I believe this, just let it alone as being one of my beliefs. Jehovah's race is Anu, our enslavers, let's leave it at that. I also belive that Satan, the ruler of the Nephilim created a hybrid species to give us the nessicary intelligence, "magickal" ability (if that's the word you'd like to use) and will to break the bonds the Anu held over us. Upon seeing this Jehovah, ruler of the Anu, sent the flood to wipe the human race out forever. Well all in all, he failed.

But these "Gods" are at constant war, some wish to inhabit earth and want to wipe out the human race, some wish to enslave us, some want to attain the level of the Gods. Thus the splitting of the religions into different sects.

These are just my personal beliefs, I can't prove them, and they can't be disproven, which is the bitch about religion. It's something one can't argue.

[naturalmystic]

But these "Gods" are at constant war, some wish to inhabit earth and want to wipe out the human race, some wish to enslave us, some want to attain the level of the Gods. Thus the splitting of the religions into different sects.

__________________________________________________ _______________

I've heard theories that there are 'alien' races that are at constant war to either protect us, or to destroy us. I have also read online about a race of 'aliens' that are 'reptilian' that enslaved the race of 'aliens' that started life on earth. In that same article with the reptilian race, I read that the race that the reptilians enslaved, were humanoid type 'aliens' that started life on earth. The way i typed it sounds rather confusing though.

[Encatuse]

You might be interested in a book called The Lucid View, naturalmystic. Parts of it are a bit out there, but if you look at it with paranoid awareness ((an important part of the book)) then it's really a wonderful read.

Keep being confused, it's the only way to live.

[weirdo79]

If you want a lot of books on the "lizard alien" phenomena, look up David Icke although he is in no way one of my faves. (his "coming to the light" was just a little convenient for me) but his sources are pretty interesting I just dont like him persay. All his books are available for download from Torrent sites and on Kazaa Lite Resurrection (although im sure he hates that, they're still there ;) he he )

[naturalmystic]

"The lucid view"


I'll check into that, thanks.

[juggalo420]

heres the official truth on all matters (im always a 100% right so listen up!)-

god doesnt exist in any form, if aliens do exist they have never reached earth it would take too long and the speed of light cant be broken (faster you get to light speed you slow down because you get significantly heavier).

man exists cause we evolved from long a exstinct primate, which itself evolved from a lower life form, this proberly happened a couple times (evolving from lower and lower animals), originally evolving from simple cells and bactaria. bactaria came from natural elements like hydrogen and other shit that under the right conditions formed life, these elements came from space they always existed (time is more or less a human concept), the elements expanded to form stars planets and all life after the big bang, big bang was all matter put in a small space until it finally expanded, before that atoms n' matter just existed forever (time doesnt exist without a sun) and thats how your here today.

you die and you simply wont BE, no afterlife or reincarnation, it'll be like before you where born, remember that? well thats all our futures.

[weirdo79]

Very Concise and well put (I love evolution so im biased of course) But, one thing you might want to rethink is the "dying and ceasing to be" part. A few years ago Dutch scientists in extensive studies about consciousness proved even 20 mins after brain death their is a consciousness still that is active. People who have come back have provided details to events they could not possibly have known unless their "consciousness" and perception were somehow still active. During this period of "brain death" there is no sensory input yet these people could recall things like a surgeon's face who had saved them or a nurses watch etc. All these instances were carefully studied for control groups, so that those who werent "brain dead" the whole time of exposure (ie: the surgeon left or nurse left or exchanged with another so that there could be no possibility logically to conclude that somehow the person wasnt dead at the time they were exposed to these people) were excluded from the results. This study was done by the same group who found that "we" as beings are truly just the electricity in our bodies and the firing of the synapses. It was covered quite extensively in most scientific magazines as well as national geographic(none of which are in anyway attached to religious groups). The study was done over a 20 year period on 10's of thousands of individuals with the same results for all. It's the one area where science and religion agree, there is consciousness after complete brain death and its not limited to the body's location. Also through measuring equipment upon brain death there is a massive amount of electo magnetic energy released/discharged from the body(the same energy that is apparently "us" according to theory). I personally find this rather interesting and If I can find a "link" to a website that covers it I'll post it. Or you can order the journal yourself (the study that was widely accepted by the body of scientists internationally) from any Dutch University as far as I know with mailing costs it should be about 30$ or you can look at back issues of National Geo etc. Well I personally agree with the majority of your post, The hypothesis that aliens couldnt reach here because of the speed of light principle has already been proven false and rapidly science is reconsidering alot of Einstein's theory. Also we already know you can "fold" space that alone puts a dent in the hypothesis they couldn't reach here. There is alot in astrophysics we are constantly reassesing. I will find you a webpage and study as soon as possible to illustrate this for you. As it is quite popular and as they say "all the rage" right now. (I think im getting old....). Don't forget up until a couple decades ago we thought blackholes actually consumed all matter and didnt expel anything. We however know better know (it emits a "maser" as far as astrophysicists can tell everything that goes into a black hole comes out contrary to popular thinking from years ago.) Einstein's work isnt immutable its simply the best we had to go on , at the time.

[Encatuse]

if aliens do exist they have never reached earth it would take too long and the speed of light cant be broken

That's why man will increase the speed of light in 2248.

Thanks for the input, Futurama.

[naturalmystic]

if aliens do exist they have never reached earth it would take too long and the speed of light cant be broken
__________________________________________________ ______________

Who says they're aren't any aliens in our own solar system? Humans are an extremely young race. Hell, Earth is an extremely young planet compared to other bodies in the universe. So who's to say that aliens have devoloped technology to travel faster than the speed of light. Just cause WE don't have the technology, doesn't mean its out of the question. You say time is a human concept, well then on that notion, so is the speed of light.

[Nullific]

you die and you simply wont BE, no afterlife or reincarnation, it'll be like before you where born, remember that? well thats all our futures.
Despite the overwhelming body of evidence supporting reincarnation?

[weirdo79]

Encatuse I loved that episode . Especially Farnsworth and his clones exchange about imagination and his clones response of "No thats not what scientists do , thats what happy little magical elves do"

[juggalo420]

Despite the overwhelming body of evidence supporting reincarnation?
you mean despite anecdotal evidence.

[weirdo79]

One thing I dont want, is to be reincarnated...Just what I need another "trip around earth" I need another planet to live on preferably away from apes with little hair that hate science....

[Nullific]

Review the evidence yourself, some of it may be just anecdotal sure but the thousands of case reports of children recalling their past lives (without hypnosis or prompting) and birth marks matching scars well thats odd isn't it?
Of course more research needs to be done but who takes reincarnation seriously? It would be like two kids building a box with flaps that could fly.

[juggalo420]

Review the evidence yourself, some of it may be just anecdotal sure but the thousands of case reports of children recalling their past lives (without hypnosis or prompting) and birth marks matching scars well thats odd isn't it?
Of course more research needs to be done but who takes reincarnation seriously? It would be like two kids building a box with flaps that could fly.
i looked at the links about it u put in other posts, it wasnt enough to convince me beyond a resonible doubt. and the number of people who recount 'past lives' doesnt prove anything, kids are impressionable, and lots of adults are dumb look at how many religious people there are in the world from christan to musslim, theres billions of people who 'know' god is real and many who have 'experienced' his presence. its all conjecture.

[F L E S H]

I'm with juggalo 100% on this one. I think people are scared to admit to themselves that there isn't really a higher being, that there's nothing after death, that we are simply a very rare occurance in the universe (even though life probably occurred somewhere else too), and that there is no ultimate meaning for the existence of humanity.

[Nullific]

I could care less whether I actually got reincarnated or not but I can't rule it out as a possiblity. With the thousands of case reports (see Ian Stevenson) gathered without hypnosis or any of that obvious bullshit, these children were not given any impressions they spontaneously spoke of previous lives, previous names and experiences. Many parents were frightened by this behavior.
There is only so many websites I could show you, you'd need to look at university research and books beyond the realm of the internet.
The unexplainable could be explained if people stop denying these things occur.

[weirdo79]

I guess my post was passed over so I reiterate (and im atheist for reference). Science has already proven that there is consciousness after death. That simple fact alone doesnt say "whats in store for us" afterwards but proves that our conscious "mind" survives. Our brain is not the limit of us.

[juggalo420]

I guess my post was passed over so I reiterate (and im atheist for reference). Science has already proven that there is consciousness after death. That simple fact alone doesnt say "whats in store for us" afterwards but proves that our conscious "mind" survives. Our brain is not the limit of us.
i would like to see any such scientific proof. are you sure your not confusing this with near death experience, in which a person whose on the verge of death has a chemical similar to dmt which is naturally released in the brain as well as a swell in endorphanes (s/p?), its a type of natural reaction to shield the person of the experience of dying. in some cases people 'see' long dead relatives, beautiful landscapes, and even themselves dead,, its nice and pretty but only a chemically induced experience to ease a person into eternal nothingness.
also how can it be measured if a persons conscieceness survives unless the person is resuscitated (and therefore not dead) recounts it, near death experiences dont prove anything.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/immortality.html
http://skepdic.com/nde.html

[weirdo79]

Quite sure, I said where to look , both of the head scientists which were in charge of the study were also on Discovery Channel as well , You can order the Study from Dutch Universities, but admittedly I've found no mention of it online so far I'll keep digging but If I can scrape the dough together I'll order it myself and .pdf copy it for ya and post the .pdf. This may seem biased but I tend to believe the Dutch , they are the most critical of "new claims" but also the first to accept empirical evidence (unlike alot of religious or even secular groups)They also seem to be roughly 20 years ahead of the rest of the world at its best, politically , socially , culturally etc. It's already been accepted by the International College of Scientists. It doesnt prove "life" as we know it or reinforce "religious" beliefs , it simply proves consciousness at least 20 minutes after brain death. People who have come back from that state have provided details of things they could not possibly know (the make of a surgeon's watch they never "met" as he was only in the room during brain death) They tested 10's of thousands of people. Yes upon death or just before it , people always experience serious hallucinations (the white light etc) but that is before brain death not after. So I am quite sure. You could also probably email Discovery Channel and just ask what "episode" they were on. Then order it , or just keep an eye out for it. I'm not surprised however that most people have no idea about the study. Most people still think the american government is "hiding" their knowledge of "ufo's" when they've already come out quite publicly (but then immediately when there is a "staff" administration change went back to denying it). That doesnt change the fact that they still came out (much like the majority of astronauts have as well). But , most people just pass it over. It's like no one remember the "lights over phoenix incident" or the subsequent "coming out" of the air force and NASA. As they both went back to denying it upon the next administration change. If I can find a simple website for you , I will . However websites are proof of nothing in the long run. Official documents and scientific journals are the only real proof (or looking at the scientists themselves explaining their study "ala" Discovery Channel please if you see it "excuse" their crazy dutch accents, they are incredibly thick accented). The majority of scientific Journals and "proofs" are not available online contrary to popular belief. Unless it says .edu at the end (and even then) id be skeptical of their information without corrobaration(sp?). Your best bet as It'll be awhile for me to scrape the money together (although I would like a copy of the study myself) is to email Discovery and ask when that particular episode will be shown again in your area. Other than that you'll have to wait. Also here's an irony , theres "zero" scientific/empirical evidence that you just cease to exist upon death....Kind of an irony don't you think considering how many self acclaimed atheists (like myself I used to believe it personally until I read up on physics and the human brain) claim thats what happens? Of course the average person believes there has to be beginnings and ends to everything, yet this is a fallacy as everything in this universe as we know it works in cycles ;), beginnings and ends are a human conception to explain our life death cycle. All we know for sure is , the conscious mind survives the "meat" after its destruction. What this entails were not sure (which is why I wouldnt comment on Reincarnation other than to say I wouldnt want to be reincarnated). Truly if "death" just caused us to cease to be , upon brain death if you were brought back you'de be "blank" , a vegetable , by empirical thinking.

[weirdo79]

Wow sorry for the essay....I tend to meander

[juggalo420]

im pretty sure this is the dutch study your refering to (but i could be wrong), this artical appears to contradict much of it, it was from one off the links i used from above, http://skepdic.com/nde.html

heres most of it-
A 13-year Dutch study led by Pim van Lommel and published in Lancet found that 12 percent (or 18 percent, depending on how NDE is defined) of 344 resuscitated patients who had experienced cessation of their heart and/or breathing function reported an NDE. If the cause of the NDE were purely physiological, the researchers reasoned that all of the patients should have had one because of their similar plight. Psychological factors were also ruled out by the researchers, as were the medications taken by the patients. However, the researchers believe that

neurophysiological processes must play some part in NDE. Similar experiences can be induced through electrical stimulation of the temporal lobe (and hence of the hippocampus) during neurosurgery for epilepsy, with high carbon dioxide levels (hypercarbia), and in decreased cerebral perfusion resulting in local cerebral hypoxia as in rapid acceleration during training of fighter pilots, or as in hyperventilation followed by valsalva manoeuvre. Ketamine-induced experiences resulting from blockage of the NMDA receptor, and the role of endorphin, serotonin, and enkephalin have also been mentioned, as have near-death-like experiences after the use of LSD, psilocarpine, and mescaline. These induced experiences can consist of unconsciousness, out-of-body experiences, and perception of light or flashes of recollection from the past. These recollections, however, consist of fragmented and random memories unlike the panoramic life-review that can occur in NDE. Further, transformational processes with changing life-insight and disappearance of fear of death are rarely reported after induced experiences.

Thus, induced experiences are not identical to NDE...*

However, the Dutch researchers seem to be assuming that no significant life-insight changes occur in people who have had induced NDE-like experiences. They cite no evidence that this is so. Also, we can't assume that only those who report NDEs had an NDE. Nor can we be sure, of course, that those who report having had an NDE actually had one. Two of the participants first reported having an NDE two years after their close call with death. It is possible they constructed a false memory. It is possible that others had an NDE but don't remember it due to either different abilities in short term memory or to the timing of their experience vis-Ã*-vis when they regain consciousness. The only significant factor between the NDEers and non-NDEers in the Dutch study, according to van Lommel and his colleagues was age: those who had NDEs tended to be younger. This is partly due to the fact that older cardiac arrest patients are more likely to die than younger ones, but it may also be partly due the fact that younger brains are more likely to have better short term memory functions than older brains.

The Dutch researchers found other significant differences between those who reported the NDE and those who didn't, but they occurred after the experience. "NDErs had become much more empathic and accepting of others since their NDE than had the non-NDErs. And NDErs had become both more appreciative of the ordinary things of life and much less afraid of death than had the non-NDErs."* They also raise the possibility that consciousness may exist outside of the brain.

Raymond Moody is sure that NDEs are evidence of consciousness existing separately from the brain. He thinks that NDEs prove the existence of life after death. Skeptics, on the other hand, believe that NDEs can be explained by neurochemistry and are the result of brain states that occur due to a dying, demented, or drugged brain. For example, neural noise and retino-cortical mapping explain the common experience of passage down a tunnel from darkness into a bright light. According to Susan Blackmore, vision researcher Dr. Tomasz S. Troscianko of the University of Bristol speculated:

If you started with very little neural noise and it gradually increased, the effect would be of a light at the centre getting larger and larger and hence closer and closer....the tunnel would appear to move as the noise levels increased and the central light got larger and larger....If the whole cortex became so noisy that all the cells were firing fast, the whole area would appear light (Blackmore 1993, 85).

Blackmore attributes the feelings of extreme peacefulness of the NDE to the release of endorphins in response to the extreme stress of the situation. The buzzing or ringing sound is attributed to cerebral anoxia and consequent effects upon the connections between brain cells (op. cit. 64).

Dr. Karl Jansen has reproduced NDEs with ketamine, a short-acting, hallucinogenic, dissociative anaesthetic.

The anaesthesia is the result of the patient being so 'dissociated' and 'removed from their body' that it is possible to carry out surgical procedures. This is wholly different from the 'unconsciousness' produced by conventional anesthetics, although ketamine is also an excellent analgesic (pain killer) by a different route (i.e. not due to dissociation). Ketamine is related to phencyclidine (PCP). Both drugs are arylcyclohexylamines - they are not opioids and are not related to LSD. In contrast to PCP, ketamine is relatively safe, is much shorter acting, is an uncontrolled drug in most countries, and remains in use as an anaesthetic for children in industrialised countries and all ages in the third world as it is cheap and easy to use. Anaesthetists prevent patients from having NDE's ('emergence phenomena') by the co-administration of sedatives which produce 'true' unconsciousness rather than dissociation.*

According to Dr. Jansen, ketamine can reproduce all the main features of the NDE, including travel through a dark tunnel into the light, the feeling that one is dead, communing with God, hallucinations, out-of-body experiences, strange noises, etc. This does not prove that there is no life after death, but it does prove that an NDE is not proof of an afterlife.

While neural activity might explain bright lights, buzzing noises, and hallucinations, there are some aspects of some NDEs that still remain puzzling. Some people who are thought to be dead, but are actually just unconscious, recover and remember things like looking down and seeing their own bodies being worked on by doctors and nurses. They recall conversations being held while they were "dead." Of course, they weren't dead at all, but they feel as if their mind or soul had left their body and was observing it from above. Those who have had such experiences--and they are many--often find them life-altering and defining moments. They are convinced such experiences are proof of life after death by a disembodied consciousness. But are they? It is possible that a person may appear dead to our senses or our scientific equipment but still be perceiving. The visual and auditory perceptions occurring while unconscious-but-perceiving may be produced by a variety of neuronal mechanisms. It is possible that the soul leaves the body, but it is not necessary to posit a soul to explain these experiences. In any case,

we do not yet know whether NDEs take place just before the crisis, during it, just after it or even during the process of trying to describe it to someone else. If clear consciousness were really possible with a completely flat EEG, this would indeed change our view of the mind/brain relationship, but so far this has not been conclusively demonstrated (Blackmore 2004: 364).

Finally, Raymond Quigg Lawrence (Blinded by the Light) thinks that NDEs are the work of Satan. Perhaps. Or, they may be telepathic communications from doctors, nurses, or others in attendance when the subject is near death. Or, they may be mixed memories composed after waking up and hearing others talk about what was happening while one was near death. Or, they may be recollections of subconsciously recorded data overheard while in a groggy state. At this point in our knowledge, to claim that NDEs provide proof that the soul exists independently of the body seems premature.

[weirdo79]

Not even close man, The study im talking about was done on 10's of thousands of subjects as I outlined in my posts. Not 344 individuals. It's also more than a 13 year study. It had nothing to do with NDE (near death experience for anyone following me and juggalo's discussion and going WHAT?!). It only had to deal with at minimum 10 mins AFTER brain death, NDE is before Brain death. Although the study you've quoted does raise one question , if the results of the Dutch Scientists are erroneous, that would basically prove telepathy,as I'm sure they could "reach" out with telepathy and pluck the images from everyone else mind, however this would have to be done withan entire hospital full of individuals as the details they "remembered" were associated with their period of "brain death" not any memories they might have had well still "alive". (They had very tight controls and demonstrated by showing several of their "films" they take of a subject, On Discovery Channel, also no one in the study mentioned Satan or any other religious icon). And ALL subjects were brain dead in the study , those that werent brain dead (completely dead then brought back) were excluded from the study as that wasnt what they were looking at (NDE) so they needed complete brain death from their subjects not simply unconsciousness. I'm of the "camp" that NDE's are simply brain reactions. But, that still doesnt have anything to do with what I was talking about.

(also this study claims a "soul" not simply a conscious existence, thats all the study I was talking about proves , not soul's not spirits just that the conscious "mind" of a subject survives after brain death , which is "complete death" NDE's arent brain death related. When the brain completely ceases to function thats brain death. If we were to believe we simply "cease to exist" then after brain death there would never be a "memory" or "sensory input" however its been proven there is. How its done(the sensory input), no idea , once again not covered in the study. All it proves is conciousness after brain death).

[juggalo420]

im using google like mad searching, ill find it eventually

[weirdo79]

I hope so in all honesty I'd like it spread out for all to see, but I dont hold out much hope , im thinking about just ordering a journal of the study presented to the International College just so I can .pdf it for ya. Personally Id like a copy of the full study myself. Too few studies are actually available online. The other day I was looking up some on Myrmecology and the top 50 sites on google were all this stupid game "ant wars" instead of being actual ant studies....it was thoroughly annoying. There goes the idea the information age will be used for education eh ;)