Why should McCain or Obama be President

[BigWeed]

Everyone always asking Why I think Obama should be President heres why. Last year I was in a really bad car wreck. I didnt know if I was going to make it. I was in a coma for a month and when I came out of it the first thing I saw was my kids. All I could think about was them. Before he annouced he was running me and my wife where going to vote for Hilliary. But after hearing him speak and reading about him he inspired me. I know your going to say its all just a speech but its more than that. He is saying its going to take all americans to bring us out of this rut where in. We all have to do our part. Im doing that now my kids mean more to me than anything. Heres what Im doing Im buying american made products I traded my honda motorcycle in on a Hybrid malibu solar panels on my house drivng less doing all the things he's Inspired me to do. McCain doesnt do that for me. So with Obama I see a brighter future for my kids and with McCain I dont see that.

What I want to know is why should McCain be president. I want to hear about how he Inspires you not campain promises. Something from the heart no bashing but from the heart.

Thats the reason why I want Obama to be president he Inspires me to be a better AMERICAN. Thats all.:rasta::rastasmoke::pimp:

[killerweed420]

I haven't been inspired by a candidate since the Kennedy bros. Its been a while.lol
I don't think either candidate is really qualified to move this country out of the mess its in.The only choice is, Is it going to be another 4 years of all talk and no action or is it going to be another 8 years of all talk and no action.

[The Figment]

Everyone always asking Why I think Obama should be President heres why. Last year I was in a really bad car wreck. I didnt know if I was going to make it. I was in a coma for a month and when I came out of it the first thing I saw was my kids. All I could think about was them. Before he annouced he was running me and my wife where going to vote for Hilliary. But after hearing him speak and reading about him he inspired me. I know your going to say its all just a speech but its more than that. He is saying its going to take all americans to bring us out of this rut where in. We all have to do our part. Im doing that now my kids mean more to me than anything. Heres what Im doing Im buying american made products I traded my honda motorcycle in on a Hybrid malibu solar panels on my house drivng less doing all the things he's Inspired me to do. McCain doesnt do that for me. So with Obama I see a brighter future for my kids and with McCain I dont see that.

What I want to know is why should McCain be president. I want to hear about how he Inspires you not campain promises. Something from the heart no bashing but from the heart.

Thats the reason why I want Obama to be president he Inspires me to be a better AMERICAN. Thats all.:rasta::rastasmoke::pimp:

For the last few months I have been listening and reading all I can about the choices this year....Obama I think is less poisoned by the "Inside The Beltway" type of thinking than anyone else. No one person (Obama or McCain) can fix whats wrong with this country...Its gonna take ALL of us-Democrat or Republican

[daihashi]

I want to hear about how he Inspires you not campain promises. Something from the heart no bashing but from the heart.


Last I checked we vote based on who we feel is more qualified. Not who is a better inspirational speaker. If that were the case motivational speakers all around the nation would be running for office :hippy:

[dragonrider]

Last I checked we vote based on who we feel is more qualified. Not who is a better inspirational speaker. If that were the case motivational speakers all around the nation would be running for office :hippy:

People base their votes on whatever they want.

For some it might be a strictly clinical look at the candidate's qualifications. For others it might be inspiration. For some it is purely their own self interest that they look at. For some it is partisan loyalty. For some it is ideology. Some people make all decisions based on logic, and others base decisions on emotion. And then there are psychological factors as well --- some people probably do not even know thier own motivations.

[daihashi]

People base their votes on whatever they want.

Touchè!!! I would hope people would vote on more than inspirational sounding speeches as they do not prove anything and really a solid voting record would say a lot more for what a candidate will do in office.

But different strokes for different folks I guess.



For some it might be a strictly clinical look at the candidate's qualifications. For others it might be inspiration. For some it is purely their own self interest that they look at. For some it is partisan loyalty. For some it is ideology. Some people make all decisions based on logic, and others base decisions on emotion. And then there are psychological factors as well --- some people probably do not even know thier own motivations.

Very true, I guess I just wish people would stop using 'hype' as their reason for voting for Obama. It's a little irritating to think that our next president might be elected just because he's a good speaker and not because of what he's done during his time in politics(everyone saying they're inspired over words and no action.).

Again different strokes for different folks. :hippy:

[thcbongman]

Touchè!!! I would hope people would vote on more than inspirational sounding speeches as they do not prove anything and really a solid voting record would say a lot more for what a candidate will do in office.

But different strokes for different folks I guess.



That's pretty much the reason there's not a true democracy in the world. Imagine everyone voting on every piece of legislations, we'd have some strange policies.

[rebgirl420]

Unfortunately these elections have come down to the lesser of two evils. Like usual.

So pretty much I look at both sides views and prioritize, what can stay and what has to become a 2nd or third priority. For example: Obama says he will decriminalize weed. That's very cool and I think he's right on that one however his other views such as socialised healthcare and guns cancel ANY good that marijuana decrimilization can bring.

I don't like McCain, actually I really don't like ANY big politicians. They are all shady as can be, both sides. If the Libertarians could show me they have a fighting chance at Presidential level I WILL vote for them. Until then I will vote for them on a local and state level (or any others really).

McCain should be president because we have to pick one of them. And I agree with McCain on the slightly more "important" issues. And I'll vote for him because Obama's views are way too Liberal (and not the good Liberal views I agree with, like gay marriage, ant-religion and other social issues). I say we may just have to tough it out for another 4 years and maybe (crosses fingers) someone MUCH better than Obama and McCain and Palin and Biden will come along.

[flyingimam]

That's pretty much the reason there's not a true democracy in the world. Imagine everyone voting on every piece of legislations, we'd have some strange policies.

well, i know 1 true democracy: Switzerland has ballots and referendums for every piece of law the put in effect

and i cant agree more with what was said above that people vote on different basis all the time

I would say Obama's word is promising, I for one don't mind to put him to test despite his lack of experience so to speak, than using a wrecked up, cranky idiot who still insists we should "win" in Iraq, win what? the war that was started over lies? for what? win al-qaeda in Iraq... then is turn to attack al-qaeda in Iran? or maybe al-qaeda in Russia? where and when will we finish them? we started fighting communism under "containment" policy... and we had a number of bloody wars and billions of $s lost @ our debt expense, thousands of our personnel's lives lost and hundreds of thousands of innocent people killed in our wars, maybe not all by us, but wars are the price of the defenseless civilians

yet we still have our greatest rival under the red flag of communism!
this makes me wanna cry or erase all my historical.political memory, then they say why u smoke weed!

how about we get the guy who actually attacked us? where the fuck is this prior servant of anti-communist america? this mad man who then supposedly turned on us... where the F is he, fuck iraq... that state was a shithole after Kuwait, incapable of doing harm even to its next door enemy Iran!

reminds of 30 years of war to "win" Vietnam and we totally lost at the end and Vietnam remains a socialist country... funny, on good terms with us!

[thcbongman]

well, i know 1 true democracy: Switzerland has ballots and referendums for every piece of law the put in effect


That's not completely true. Swiss has a parliament and laws are passed through parliament. It's just people have the right to reject laws if they collect enough signatures. By far the closest to a democracy, but not a completely democracy.

[rebgirl420]

Uh I think there has to be a mixture between a Democracy and a Republic. One extreme or another doesn't work very well, at least not on a grande scale.

The U.S. has a great system, however it has been dirtied by corrupt politicians. And even so actually I think the U.S. has a constitutional federal republic.

[OneIn1]

But after hearing him speak and reading about him he inspired me. I know your going to say its all just a speech but its more than that. He is saying its going to take all americans to bring us out of this rut where in. ....

Thats the reason why I want Obama to be president he Inspires me to be a better AMERICAN. Thats all.:rasta::rastasmoke::pimp:

What rut that we are in? This is America, a Capitalistic system in which hard work and perserverance will pay off in the long run. Why does everyone want a hand out? I think kids are getting way too many trophies for last place and start to think that the American Government should provide everything for them. America provides an enviroment in which anything you've ever dreamed about is possible.

I will admit Obama is a good speech giver(so was Hitler..) and a very intelligent man but he was picked by a Liberal group (which has slipped my mind but believe me...ask me again if you dont) in order to reach their political goals.

Being an American in itself should inspire you to do anything you want. don't tell me I need to get us out of this rut and help everyone else out. When I get rich enough I'll donate my money to whom needs and in the mean time I'll be a nice person. Pfff sorry you got in a crash dude but I aint paying for sum bum's healthcare when he destroys his own health and I hit the gym everyday and eat right. If you think America needs a fixing move the fuck to Europe and save me some time.

[flyingimam]

That's not completely true. Swiss has a parliament and laws are passed through parliament. It's just people have the right to reject laws if they collect enough signatures. By far the closest to a democracy, but not a completely democracy.

there we go, thnx for correcting me, u said what i meant...
in reality hardly anything matches its definition 100%

justice... democracy... hell even recession!

[rebgirl420]

What rut that we are in? This is America, a Capitalistic system in which hard work and perserverance will pay off in the long run. Why does everyone want a hand out? I think kids are getting way too many trophies for last place and start to think that the American Government should provide everything for them. America provides an enviroment in which anything you've ever dreamed about is possible.

I will admit Obama is a good speech giver(so was Hitler..) and a very intelligent man but he was picked by a Liberal group (which has slipped my mind but believe me...ask me again if you dont) in order to reach their political goals.

Being an American in itself should inspire you to do anything you want. don't tell me I need to get us out of this rut and help everyone else out. When I get rich enough I'll donate my money to whom needs and in the mean time I'll be a nice person. Pfff sorry you got in a crash dude but I aint paying for sum bum's healthcare when he destroys his own health and I hit the gym everyday and eat right. If you think America needs a fixing move the fuck to Europe and save me some time.

My god man, everything you've been saying tonight is everything thats on my mind. Rep for you!

[flyingimam]

If you think America needs a fixing move the fuck to Europe and save me some time.

Sorry but I want to mention: thats how shit can go very wrong.

not taking sides, but thats in ideology supporting opposition-cleansing in a more "peaceful way" than what hitler did str8 up!

u gotta be able to stand those who oppose you, not tell them to stfu cuz u dont like what they say no matter how wrong they might be in your opinion!

be able to state your points, DEBATE, dont fight! maybe the other side also used the wrong terms for a healthy debate... but anyways, try looking @ things from some1 else's eyes as well sometimes

i get your idea about the healthcare system though, i doubt any country that i know has reached a totally acceptable healthcare system, but what we have now is run by insurance and pharmaceutical industries, its not at all the best choice we could have possibly have... almost everyone admits we need to change it in one way or another, but what we should change it to is the point of major debate and i am yet find any1 with a good comprehensive plan.

[OneIn1]

Thats how shit can go wrong?? Here's another one.....

Europe has mostly socialistic governments and by voting for Obama you turn America into a Socialistic government. Moving to europe is a hell of alot easier to live the hand out life sum people want. America was founded by people seeking freedom from a government that was overstepping its bounds. They were here first so lets honor them by keeping it that way.

the hand out of government Obama wants is YOU hand him more of the paycheck YOU earned and in return you will receive another botched program from the government in the form of Healthcare or ya da yada yada.

Yo rebgirl420 i'm running for President in 2024, the year I turn 35. Vote

[McDanger]

I'll give you my main reason. McCain does not submit earmarks into the budget, and has promised:cool: to veto any budget with earmarks in it. The larger government gets the less freedom the citizens have.

[thcbongman]

What rut that we are in? This is America, a Capitalistic system in which hard work and perserverance will pay off in the long run. Why does everyone want a hand out? I think kids are getting way too many trophies for last place and start to think that the American Government should provide everything for them. America provides an enviroment in which anything you've ever dreamed about is possible.

I will admit Obama is a good speech giver(so was Hitler..) and a very intelligent man but he was picked by a Liberal group (which has slipped my mind but believe me...ask me again if you dont) in order to reach their political goals.

Being an American in itself should inspire you to do anything you want. don't tell me I need to get us out of this rut and help everyone else out. When I get rich enough I'll donate my money to whom needs and in the mean time I'll be a nice person. Pfff sorry you got in a crash dude but I aint paying for sum bum's healthcare when he destroys his own health and I hit the gym everyday and eat right. If you think America needs a fixing move the fuck to Europe and save me some time.

I take it you never had a serious health problem. I take it you live in a little pipe dream, everything me me me me me me me me me me, right? I don't like Obama at all and I find what you wrote to be absolutely sickening and disgusting as a human being, not even about left and right. You are simply misguided.

I'm not asking for a hand-out. Infact I work harder than you. That's because I have no choice. I am sick in America. In order to maintain my insurance I have to work. I have to make a lot of hard choices. Truthfully I came back from the doctor today. He insisted I should go into ER to get an MRI on my brain. I'm not going. Why? I have to work in the morning, in addition of going to school, in addition to taking care of my father who has cancer as well. I can't put myself in a position to get fired. My company fired a co-worker who had severe health problems because she couldn't work full-time, even with doctors order. They don't care, they fire you. Welcome to America bitch, you just arrived because you are obivious.

Hell yeah if you are sick, unable to work because you are sick, shouldn't someone step in and give a little assistance? Or do they die in this country like a street dog, in other words, like you suggest? Do you not care about fellow citizens of your country or are you seriously that self-absorbed?

[daihashi]

I take it you never had a serious health problem. I take it you live in a little pipe dream, everything me me me me me me me me me me, right? I don't like Obama at all and I find what you wrote to be absolutely sickening and disgusting as a human being, not even about left and right. You are simply misguided.

Why does every 'sick' person think that when we say "hand-out" we are talking about them.

There is an obvious difference between people who ARE capable to provide for themselves and others who are NOT capable. I have no idea why everyone on this forum is hyper sensitive whenever someone mentions wasteful use of resources.

You would have to be living in an alternate universe to deny that this happens and that it is harmful to our country. There are people who do indeed sit at home who are capable to provide for themselves but choose to live off the government instead. These are the people that myself and many people who bring up this topic are referring to.

Honestly I'm getting tired of defending myself. Although this post wasn't addressed at me I share Onein1's point of view.

Get a grip, conservatives are not as cold hearted as people would like to believe.



I'm not asking for a hand-out. Infact I work harder than you.

uhh how can you even say that or prove it. This is a forum and it's moot to even bring it up. That's like saying my wang is bigger than yours. No one really knows. I'm not sure what the work harder statement was supposed to prove aside that you're sick and working.


That's because I have no choice. I am sick in America. In order to maintain my insurance I have to work. I have to make a lot of hard choices.

As callous as the following may sound which is more important to you? Maintaining your health as best as is currently possible or the alternative? Have you tried applying for benefits?


Truthfully I came back from the doctor today. He insisted I should go into ER to get an MRI on my brain. I'm not going. Why? I have to work in the morning, in addition of going to school, in addition to taking care of my father who has cancer as well. I can't put myself in a position to get fired.

If you don't get an MRI and something happens to you then what will happen to everyone else who may depend on you and care for you? Can you put yourself in a position to let these people down or put them through sorrow?

I'm not saying this to be a dick but rather to put things i perspective. Yes a job is important, yes insurance is important... but if you don't make it to tomorrow then what was the point at all? You can sit back and blame the government who has had no responsibility in the unfortunate illness you have or you can try to live as best as you can. Taking care of your *own* health should be YOUR primary responsibility and then look to the government for aid. If you're completely unable to work due to being sick then yes, I believe assistance should be handed out to these individuals as well as the handicapped (truely handicap, not people who get handicap stickers when they just have arthritis in their wrists.. WTF).



My company fired a co-worker who had severe health problems because she couldn't work full-time, even with doctors order. They don't care, they fire you. Welcome to America bitch, you just arrived because you are obivious.

Welcome to America, start hunting for another job that is more sensible and compassionate towards your needs. I'm sure your employer is not the only employer in your area for your field.


Hell yeah if you are sick, unable to work because you are sick, shouldn't someone step in and give a little assistance? Or do they die in this country like a street dog, in other words, like you suggest? Do you not care about fellow citizens of your country or are you seriously that self-absorbed?

I think if you're truely unable to work because you're sick that you should get assistance. As a matter of fact I would like to see Social Security reformed to eliminate the retirement income portion of it (it's so screwed anyway) and put those funds into expanding Medicaid and Medicare to make it a true health care support system.

It's not that we're self absorbed.. it's that we don't enjoy wasteful spending. It's not America's job to provide for those who are capable. This nation was founded on the mentality that everyone is capable to achieve great things. It was founded on the notion that THE PEOPLE make up the country and not the government.

I wish to stay true to our founding fathers vision.


PS: The following should've been a key indicator that the poster was not talking about the sick:


Pfff sorry you got in a crash dude but I aint paying for sum bum's healthcare when he destroys his own health and I hit the gym everyday and eat right.

Here he was obviously talking about someone who purposefully goes out and fucks up their health. Not someone who gets a debilitating disease.

[trancefusion5]

Out of the two candidates McCain is WAY more qualified! However I dont agree with his policies so i see myself going for Obama. I really wish it wasnt on one of the two but those seem to be the cards we were dealt... I also see myself as a Democrat since im not rich...

[dragonrider]

That's like saying my wang is bigger than yours. No one really knows. I'm not sure what the work harder statement was supposed to prove aside that you're sick and working.

I'm not sure if my wang is actually bigger than yours, but I am sure it is working harder. Much harder. Oh, yeah...

It may be that the ole Bongman wasn't reacting entirely to the message of OneIn1's post, and maybe was reacting partly to the tone. I know you made a point that not all conservatives are discomapssionate, but it's hard to argue that about someone who says things like:


If you think America needs a fixing move the fuck to Europe and save me some time.

That's maybe not the most compassionate tone I've heard.

I also found this one to be a bit over the top:


Europe has mostly socialistic governments and by voting for Obama you turn America into a Socialistic government.

[daihashi]

Out of the two candidates McCain is WAY more qualified! However I dont agree with his policies so i see myself going for Obama. I really wish it wasnt on one of the two but those seem to be the cards we were dealt... I also see myself as a Democrat since im not rich...

You realize being Democrat or Republican has nothing to do with Rich or Poor correct?

[flyingimam]

Out of the two candidates McCain is WAY more qualified! However I dont agree with his policies so i see myself going for Obama. I really wish it wasnt on one of the two but those seem to be the cards we were dealt... I also see myself as a Democrat since im not rich...

u know i was thinking about a scenario

what if obama becomes president and ruins the 4 years, and we have had 8 years of bush b4 him, do u guys think, libertarians may actually pick up on next election in such a situation?

i mean ron paul to me sounded like the most reasonable candidate in means of policy and rhetoric, maybe he had a couple really ambicious ro too optimistic policies but most of what he says makes better sense than most of the garbage u hear from left or right

after we cant stay a two party democracy forever... or who knows, maybe we do stay that way! I cant predict shit about america!

[trancefusion5]

You realize being Democrat or Republican has nothing to do with Rich or Poor correct?

Yeah, just a joke. I also agree with most of the things they are about as well as the breaks for middle and lower class. It goes back to a joke i heard "When your young and naive your a democrat until you grow up and make money, then your a republican" Im not saying its true, I just thought it was funny.

[trancefusion5]

u know i was thinking about a scenario

what if obama becomes president and ruins the 4 years, and we have had 8 years of bush b4 him, do u guys think, libertarians may actually pick up on next election in such a situation?

i mean ron paul to me sounded like the most reasonable candidate in means of policy and rhetoric, maybe he had a couple really ambicious ro too optimistic policies but most of what he says makes better sense than most of the garbage u hear from left or right

after we cant stay a two party democracy forever... or who knows, maybe we do stay that way! I cant predict shit about america!

Yeah I have no idea whats going to happen. Im almost scared to vote this election just so i dont feel quilty when all hell breaks loose. I know i just got to trust the gut here and do it though...

[thcbongman]

Why does every 'sick' person think that when we say "hand-out" we are talking about them.

There is an obvious difference between people who ARE capable to provide for themselves and others who are NOT capable. I have no idea why everyone on this forum is hyper sensitive whenever someone mentions wasteful use of resources.

You would have to be living in an alternate universe to deny that this happens and that it is harmful to our country. There are people who do indeed sit at home who are capable to provide for themselves but choose to live off the government instead. These are the people that myself and many people who bring up this topic are referring to.

Honestly I'm getting tired of defending myself. Although this post wasn't addressed at me I share Onein1's point of view.

Get a grip, conservatives are not as cold hearted as people would like to believe.



I completely agree with you on the welfare aspect. Programs like Section 8 housing is vastly corrupted, lots of abuse and waste goes on. But what the hell does it have to do with automatically covering health care for people who lost their jobs and lost their insurance coverage? Why should a few rotten apples spoil it for the many more people who can't? Why should people get racked up with enormous bills while they have to wait to see if they even get medicaid or not?

I definitely agree there's a lot of waste. However I believe there are far better solutions to fixing the system.





uhh how can you even say that or prove it. This is a forum and it's moot to even bring it up. That's like saying my wang is bigger than yours. No one really knows. I'm not sure what the work harder statement was supposed to prove aside that you're sick and working.
[\QUOTE]

If you don't believe it, I don't care, doesn't change anything. I'm just telling you how it is. If you don't want to believe it so be it.

[QUOTE]
As callous as the following may sound which is more important to you? Maintaining your health as best as is currently possible or the alternative? Have you tried applying for benefits?


Living is important to me, especially having decent health insurance that takes care of my health. I don't want to jeopardize my position. I would be dumb to.



If you don't get an MRI and something happens to you then what will happen to everyone else who may depend on you and care for you? Can you put yourself in a position to let these people down or put them through sorrow?


Yeah, but I have no choice. What else can I do, gotta maintain coverage. If I lost my job and don't get a job after COBRA expires days in the case if I do get let go, I can kiss my insurability good bye. Pre-existing condition. People who aren't healthy don't have a clue of how messed up this system is, especially since I been treated . I'm in quite a good position in terms of coverage, so why ruin a good thing?



I'm not saying this to be a dick but rather to put things i perspective. Yes a job is important, yes insurance is important... but if you don't make it to tomorrow then what was the point at all? You can sit back and blame the government who has had no responsibility in the unfortunate illness you have or you can try to live as best as you can. Taking care of your *own* health should be YOUR primary responsibility and then look to the government for aid. If you're completely unable to work due to being sick then yes, I believe assistance should be handed out to these individuals as well as the handicapped (truely handicap, not people who get handicap stickers when they just have arthritis in their wrists.. WTF).


What do you think I am doing? I'm not the one relying on the government.




Welcome to America, start hunting for another job that is more sensible and compassionate towards your needs. I'm sure your employer is not the only employer in your area for your field.


My employer has been quite good to me during my illness and why should I change my job over....health care? I like my job. However company policy evolves, it's starting to signal a change of tune. You have to react and adapt to the reality.



I think if you're truely unable to work because you're sick that you should get assistance. As a matter of fact I would like to see Social Security reformed to eliminate the retirement income portion of it (it's so screwed anyway) and put those funds into expanding Medicaid and Medicare to make it a true health care support system.

It's not that we're self absorbed.. it's that we don't enjoy wasteful spending. It's not America's job to provide for those who are capable. This nation was founded on the mentality that everyone is capable to achieve great things. It was founded on the notion that THE PEOPLE make up the country and not the government.

I wish to stay true to our founding fathers vision.

I once was unable to, but I am able, that's why I'm going to work. I'm healthy, other people don't think so. It's a matter of opinion and I don't agree with their recommendation.
I can agree with reforming medicaid, which I think is a good median. There are many great things about private health insurance, but you have to maintain coverage for those that need it. However many rules need to be changed in order to not get people to lose coverage because of a pre-existing condition. It's not solely a monetary issue but a policy one as well. I can't see why you can't support more supplements to health care. I'm sure there's enough military money to cover it.

[daihashi]

I'm not sure if my wang is actually bigger than yours, but I am sure it is working harder. Much harder. Oh, yeah...

It may be that the ole Bongman wasn't reacting entirely to the message of OneIn1's post, and maybe was reacting partly to the tone. I know you made a point that not all conservatives are discomapssionate, but it's hard to argue that about someone who says things like:



That's maybe not the most compassionate tone I've heard.

I also found this one to be a bit over the top:

It doesn't change the fact that People here FREAK OUT when you say you don't believe in socialized healthcare.

I mean literally freak out and lash out and call you names. It's ridiculous that people make such assumptions based on something that was never said. It does not justify their actions or make it right and FRANKLY I'm tired of seeing members attacking people like this.

There are many times I want to tell people to get out of America if they don't like it. These people though are people who sit on their asses all day and complain about how they don't like the Right or the government but then don't try to do anything about it.

This is America and ALL of us have the opportunity to institute the change it is that we are seeking. When people constantly BASH our own country because they feel the Government isn't doing enough for them.... it's frustrating.

In my opinion unless you're willing to try to change what it is you don't like about this country, whether it's through supporting a politician you think holds the same values as you, voting on local legislation, trying to run for office yourself, being an advocate for a group or join an organization that is attempting to further your cause; unless you are willing to do something more than sit on your ass then I don't think people have the right to bash this nation of ours.

You are not entitled simply because you pay taxes. Being an American is more than that.

[flyingimam]

This is America and ALL of us have the opportunity to institute the change it is that we are seeking. When people constantly BASH our own country because they feel the Government isn't doing enough for them.... it's frustrating.

In my opinion unless you're willing to try to change what it is you don't like about this country, whether it's through supporting a politician you think holds the same values as you, voting on local legislation, trying to run for office yourself, being an advocate for a group or join an organization that is attempting to further your cause; unless you are willing to do something more than sit on your ass then I don't think people have the right to bash this nation of ours.

You are not entitled simply because you pay taxes. Being an American is more than that.

well said

but still i think people have the right to bitch!!! lol

[daihashi]

I completely agree with you on the welfare aspect. Programs like Section 8 housing is vastly corrupted, lots of abuse and waste goes on. But what the hell does it have to do with automatically covering health care for people who lost their jobs and lost their insurance coverage? Why should a few rotten apples spoil it for the many more people who can't? Why should people get racked up with enormous bills while they have to wait to see if they even get medicaid or not?

I definitely agree there's a lot of waste. However I believe there are far better solutions to fixing the system.

It has nothing to do with covering healthcare. If you read the paragraph correctly you would see that I was just ranting at how I'm tired of people lashing out and jumping the gun when another member says they don't support socialized health care.

The reason why it takes so long to get Medicaid and Medicare is in part to try to deter people who wish to just abuse the program. I am in agreement that it needs to be fixed/reformed HOWEVER I still am not for socializing the current healthcare system we have in place.

Over the last 20 years Employer based insurance has fallen from 70% to 61%. This seems to indicate a problem in the system and not something that needs to be enchanged entirely. I believe currently we have something like 18% of people without insurance. Are we going to punish 61% of Americans for the 18% of people who don't have insurance? Where is the logic in that? If it were close to a 50/50 ratio or even like a 60/40 ratio then it would make more sense.



If you don't believe it, I don't care, doesn't change anything. I'm just telling you how it is. If you don't want to believe it so be it.

Frankly I don't care. The point is that YOU don't know how hard other people work in comparison to you. It was a moot statement and honestly I found it pointless to mention. You could work harder than me (honestly you probably do) or you could not. Point being is I don't know and there's no point in verifying. I used the wang contest because it feels like the old cliche "my dick is bigger than yours".


Living is important to me, especially having decent health insurance that takes care of my health. I don't want to jeopardize my position. I would be dumb to.

So jeopardizing your life makes more sense? I understand your position but you seem to have your priorities out of place.

Living > Having a Home > Having a Job > Having Insurance.... Everything that you are trying to preserve in your life is dependant on you living but you chose to skip out on your MRI.

I am sincerely sorry to hear about your situation but your logic doesn't make sense to me.

Even if you don't believe it to be true, Another job CAN be found. You can't go out and GET another life.



Yeah, but I have no choice. What else can I do, gotta maintain coverage. If I lost my job and don't get a job after COBRA expires days in the case if I do get let go, I can kiss my insurability good bye. Pre-existing condition. People who aren't healthy don't have a clue of how messed up this system is, especially since I been treated . I'm in quite a good position in terms of coverage, so why ruin a good thing?

Oh god.. You're right.. I don't have a clue. I've only worked with people who are severely handicapped, have MS, Crohns, Gastroparesis, POTS and the list goes on and on. You're right I have no clue how you're being treated </sarcasm>.

Don't assume that no one knows what you're going through. That is actually arrogant to assume no one could understand unless you're sick.

Many employers who offer employer based insurance work under a blanket policy; which means that everyone is covered. I sold insurance for a short while in my life (I hated it.. I had a moral dilemna about it) So I do actually know something about it.


What do you think I am doing? I'm not the one relying on the government.


No, you're just complaining and lashing out at someone who NEVER SAID SICK PEOPLE WERE LOOKING FOR HAND OUTS.

You missed the point of my entire post that you lashed out on someone who simply felt that people should not get hand outs. My post was not even specifically about you but rather how this seems to be the going trend.

I am not cold.. I am not callous and I help many sick people in my day to day life. While no one here on this forum can attest to this personally there are a select few whom I talk to offline that have heard of some of my dealings.

Yet people like you, and another poster in another thread (who got his post deleted and I think perhaps banned) attacked me the exact same way. I've searched through the politics forum and find that quite frequently when this is brought up people always attack the person who says they don't want to help people looking for hand outs.

Guess what, Sick people.. the elderly.. the handicapped.. children.. There is a VERY HIGH probability that the posters that say they don't want to help support people looking for hand outs are not talking about the above demographics!!!

Like I said, calm down and get a grip. Not just you but any other sick person out there who thinks people are bashing them. I know first hand that no one wants to be sick. Like I said, I'm sort've surrounded by people with debilitating diseases.

My employer has been quite good to me during my illness and why should I change my job over....health care? I like my job. However company policy evolves, it's starting to signal a change of tune. You have to react and adapt to the reality.



I once was unable to, but I am able, that's why I'm going to work. I'm healthy, other people don't think so. It's a matter of opinion and I don't agree with their recommendation.
I can agree with reforming medicaid, which I think is a good median. There are many great things about private health insurance, but you have to maintain coverage for those that need it. However many rules need to be changed in order to not get people to lose coverage because of a pre-existing condition. It's not solely a monetary issue but a policy one as well. I can't see why you can't support more supplements to health care. I'm sure there's enough military money to cover it.[/QUOTE]

[daihashi]

grrrr.. I tried to go back and edit because I realized some of my posts/quotes didn't make it.. here it is



My employer has been quite good to me during my illness and why should I change my job over....health care? I like my job. However company policy evolves, it's starting to signal a change of tune. You have to react and adapt to the reality.


Good to you? They are going to fire you if yo uhave to go get an MRI. Your doctor is saying you should go to the ER. That sounds pretty damn important to me. If your employer doesn't understand that this is an essential need of yours then I'd have to argue that your Employer is not good to you.



I once was unable to, but I am able, that's why I'm going to work. I'm healthy, other people don't think so. It's a matter of opinion and I don't agree with their recommendation.

I agree, some people who are out there working totally shouldn't be. Just because you can doesn't mean that you should. Believe it or not I am sorry to hear about your situation.


I can agree with reforming medicaid, which I think is a good median. There are many great things about private health insurance, but you have to maintain coverage for those that need it. However many rules need to be changed in order to not get people to lose coverage because of a pre-existing condition. It's not solely a monetary issue but a policy one as well. I can't see why you can't support more supplements to health care. I'm sure there's enough military money to cover it.

Well there in lies the issue. I don't feel we need to take money from the military, I don't feel we need to tax companies more, I don't feel we need to raise any taxes. I feel that we need to cut wasteful spending.

If we removed the retirement portion of Social Security, put limitations on Welfare (meaning people can't stay on it their entire lives), basically if we shuffled money around from all these failed programs and built up Medicaid/Medicare then it could be a TRUELY GREAT system for individuals who truely need it.. such as yourself.

I feel a number of conservatives (I'm actually not conservative but pragmatic who leans slightly to the right) would probably agree with me to some degree.

Again THCbongman.. I understand all too well. I've been in the hospital way too many times to not empathize with you; it's that, I feel, there are better ways to fix this problem.

[dragonrider]

It doesn't change the fact that People here FREAK OUT when you say you don't believe in socialized healthcare.

I mean literally freak out and lash out and call you names. It's ridiculous that people make such assumptions based on something that was never said. It does not justify their actions or make it right and FRANKLY I'm tired of seeing members attacking people like this.

There are many times I want to tell people to get out of America if they don't like it. These people though are people who sit on their asses all day and complain about how they don't like the Right or the government but then don't try to do anything about it.

This is America and ALL of us have the opportunity to institute the change it is that we are seeking. When people constantly BASH our own country because they feel the Government isn't doing enough for them.... it's frustrating.

In my opinion unless you're willing to try to change what it is you don't like about this country, whether it's through supporting a politician you think holds the same values as you, voting on local legislation, trying to run for office yourself, being an advocate for a group or join an organization that is attempting to further your cause; unless you are willing to do something more than sit on your ass then I don't think people have the right to bash this nation of ours.

You are not entitled simply because you pay taxes. Being an American is more than that.

I'm not in favor of paying the way for people who do not work and sit on their asses all day either, but I really don't think there is a lot of that going on in this country. That idea is a leftover relic of Reagan's "Welfare Queen" imagery. It's not a big problem.

But there ARE huge healthcare cost problems for millions of people in this country who are hardworking. That is a real problem, not an imaginary problem like the myth of the welfare queen.

The problems are mainly that there are millions of people who do not have group healthcare coverage through their employers or through some other organization.

If you do not have group healthcare coverage, it is prohibitively expensive for many people to get decent coverage, even if they are hardworking and make a decent paycheck.

If they have a pre-exisitng condition, and do not have group healthcare coverage, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get healthcare coverage.

If they have a pre-exisitng condition, and DO have group healthcare coverage through an employer, they can be trapped in a situation in which they cannot afford leave that job for any reason, including disability. People do things like work their job through chemo-therapy for fear of losing their job and the insurance that is keeping them alive.

We've already gone over the details of the two healtcare plans offered by Obama and McCain in the "Does McCain/Obama Repreesent Change" threads. And neither one of those two plans is anything close to "socailized medicine." Characterizing Obama's plan as "socialized" is a lie.

I don't know anyone who is for socailized medicine. I know a lot of people who are interested in affordable insurance and a guarantee that they aren't going to get screwed out of their insurance just bacause they actaully get sick and need their insurance or they decide they need to change jobs.

I think Obama's plan addresses the problem of affordability, the problem of accessibility for those with pre-exisitng conditions, and the problem of portability for those who change jobs. It will solve a lot of problems for hardworking people who are getting screwed today.

[daihashi]

I'm not in favor of paying the way for people who do not work and sit on their asses all day either, but I really don't think there is a lot of that going on in this country. That idea is a leftover relic of Reagan's "Welfare Queen" imagery. It's not a big problem.

I grew up in the 'ghetto'... in the 'wards'. I assure you that the Welfare Queen is not imaginary.


But there ARE huge healthcare cost problems for millions of people in this country who are hardworking. That is a real problem, not an imaginary problem like the myth of the welfare queen.

Again free country, they can either demand healthcare from their current employers or seek opportunities elsewhere that will give them the benefits that they need. If these people are hardworking then they could try to find another job. Health should be the INDIVIDUAL's responisibility first and not the government.



The problems are mainly that there are millions of people who do not have group healthcare coverage through their employers or through some other organization.

And why is this the fault of the government like everyone acts like it is? Can you show me where in our countries history it says "entitlement to free health care".

Again, free country and there are plenty of employers who will pay for your insurance. After all currently as of 2008 61% of Americans are covered by their Employers.


If you do not have group healthcare coverage, it is prohibitively expensive for many people to get decent coverage, even if they are hardworking and make a decent paycheck.

Yes it is, but again for the people who can provide for themselves.. they have to decide what is more important. Their health or saving that money. If they can't do without either then they should probably be looking for a job that suits their needs better. It's cold and callous but no one is stopping them from getting what they need/want. You make your own opportunity in this country.



If they have a pre-exisitng condition, and do not have group healthcare coverage, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get healthcare coverage.
If they have a pre-exisitng condition, and DO have group healthcare coverage through an employer, they can be trapped in a situation in which they cannot afford leave that job for any reason, including disability. People do things like work their job through chemo-therapy for fear of losing their job and the insurance that is keeping them alive.

I do believe that it should be mandatory to allow an employee leave of absence due to illness.

Also like I said, I'm actually licensed. If your employer has their benefits package written well then they will have a 'true' blanket policy. You have to hunt them out.


We've already gone over the details of the two healtcare plans offered by Obama and McCain in the "Does McCain/Obama Repreesent Change" threads. And neither one of those two plans is anything close to "socailized medicine." Characterizing Obama's plan as "socialized" is a lie.

Socialized means that it uses public funds to create a service. So in a sense.. Medicaid is socialized, Medicare, Welfare.. all these programs are socialized programs

What I don't support is a complete redesign of our current healthcare system to put it under the governments control. Look what they've done with all the other Major programs they have and look at how awesomely they all suck!!!


I don't know anyone who is for socailized medicine. I know a lot of people who are interested in affordable insurance and a guarantee that they aren't going to get screwed out of their insurance just bacause they actaully get sick and need their insurance or they decide they need to change jobs.

I think Obama's plan addresses the problem of affordability, the problem of accessibility for those with pre-exisitng conditions, and the problem of portability for those who change jobs. It will solve a lot of problems for hardworking people who are getting screwed today.

He could just as easily help people by writing a sort of Patient/Employer Bill of rights to protect people who are in situations like you. We don't need the government run our healthcare system. Do you really want a bunch of corrupt politicians taking your money and essentially flushing it down the toilet.

Again look at some of our current programs. Social Security is a perfect example of a program that's so far screwed there is no chance to save it.



PS: I do not have health insurance... I could probably use it but I still don't want a hand out from the government.

[dragonrider]

Over the last 20 years Employer based insurance has fallen from 70% to 61%. This seems to indicate a problem in the system and not something that needs to be enchanged entirely. I believe currently we have something like 18% of people without insurance. Are we going to punish 61% of Americans for the 18% of people who don't have insurance? Where is the logic in that?

I do not know if the numbers and percentages yo quote are accurate, but I definitely know the MATH doesn't work like that. No one has ever said the people who do have insurance (61% according to you) need to pay for the insurance of those who do not have it. No one is planning to "punish" the people who do have insurance to pay for those who do not.

If you are talking specifically about Obama's plan, then you should know that it does not propopse to give "free" healthcare to most of those unisured people either. So for the most part no one would be paying for those people's new healthcare except themselves. Many of the people who do not have insurance could afford to pay for it and would pay for it is they had access to group rates through a group plan. But they don't have access, so they can't afford it. The plan would give them access to a new group healthcare plan, and most poeple who wanted to use it would pay for it themselves. That's not "socialized."

[daihashi]

I do not know if the numbers and percentages yo quote are accurate, but I definitely know the MATH doesn't work like that. No one has ever said the people who do have insurance (61% according to you) need to pay for the insurance of those who do not have it. No one is planning to "punish" the people who do have insurance to pay for those who do not.

Go to nchc.org. I've posted this information a few times now and I'm not going to repost it again. You can find it on that website.

Then google search for Americans with insurance between 2007-2008. There are several articles that indicate a 2% increase in people with employer based insurance.


If you are talking specifically about Obama's plan, then you should know that it does not propopse to give "free" healthcare to most of those unisured people either. So for the most part no one would be paying for those people's new healthcare except themselves. Many of the people who do not have insurance could afford to pay for it and would pay for it is they had access to group rates through a group plan. But they don't have access, so they can't afford it. The plan would give them access to a new group healthcare plan, and most poeple who wanted to use it would pay for it themselves. That's not "socialized."

So tell me.. people who don't work. Do they just not get healthcare? This seems to leave a big loophole in your leaders plan.

Lastly, I don't care about Obama and my posts had nothing to do with him except when I've been replying to people after THCbongmans post. Leave Obama out of this as this has nothing to do with him.

My argument is specifically people on this forum LUNGING at other people when they say they don't want the government to give out handouts. Everyone takes offense and assumes they are talking about them. That is HIGHLY annoying and leads to fights and arguments that shouldn't happen.

I was hoping by highlighting that it would make the light go off in peoples heads that said "hey, maybe that person doesn't mean me. Maybe I should ask them more specifically what they mean.". However this wasn't the case, it figures that people would turn this back into an Obama related issue.

[daihashi]

FYI.. I foresee this escalating. So before anyone flies off the handle I'm just going to concede. Not because I think I'm wrong but because I don't want to see this escalate into a fight among forum members.

Just please re-read what I said and bare in mind I had no hostility, anger or ill wishes in my posts. Please read them as someone looking at this out of concern of people jumping the gun on posts here in the politics forum and unecessarily attacking fellow members over things they never said and didn't mean the way it was interpreted.

[dragonrider]

I grew up in the 'ghetto'... in the 'wards'. I assure you that the Welfare Queen is not imaginary.

It is an extremely small problem compared to the problem of lack of access to affordable healthcare. You are creating a false choice between completely supporting a bunch of lazy asses who don't work at all, and allowing hardworking people who are good American citizens fall through the cracks. The choice is not between those two extremes.

Obama's plan does not propose paying for everyone's healthcare on the backs of taxpayers. It doesn't force you to participate if you have your own insurance, but it does give you a tax credit to help pay for your own. It doesn't put your healthcare under "Government Control."

Daihashi, you and I went around on this subject in nauseating detail a few months ago in another thread. Because we've already covered it, I'm bowing out of this one. Good luck convincing everyone about the Democratic threat of creeping communism.

I think maybe O'Reilly is coming on, and I want to see the Obama interview. Goodnight...

[daihashi]

Good luck convincing everyone about the Democratic threat of creeping communism.


What was I trying to convince people of? I was trying to tell people to stop jumping on peoples asses over things they didn't say.

Once more you completely missed the point of my response to THCbongman. My post was actually non political but more of a reality check.

But whatever floats your boat, think about me what you will.

[thcbongman]

It has nothing to do with covering healthcare. If you read the paragraph correctly you would see that I was just ranting at how I'm tired of people lashing out and jumping the gun when another member says they don't support socialized health care.

The reason why it takes so long to get Medicaid and Medicare is in part to try to deter people who wish to just abuse the program. I am in agreement that it needs to be fixed/reformed HOWEVER I still am not for socializing the current healthcare system we have in place.

Over the last 20 years Employer based insurance has fallen from 70% to 61%. This seems to indicate a problem in the system and not something that needs to be enchanged entirely. I believe currently we have something like 18% of people without insurance. Are we going to punish 61% of Americans for the 18% of people who don't have insurance? Where is the logic in that? If it were close to a 50/50 ratio or even like a 60/40 ratio then it would make more sense.



Damn right I'm going to lash out. His last paragraph was downright ignorant. My response was nothing political towards him, infact there was none involved in my response. about advocating socialized health care. Saying that if you want it fixed, move to Europe. Damn right I will lash out. It wasn't about a conservative who prefers to save costs and believes the private industry performs services more efficiently, which it does. It was about the ignorance of this tra-la-la-la dream he's living in who thinks giving $20 to a charity is doing his part to help society.



Frankly I don't care. The point is that YOU don't know how hard other people work in comparison to you. It was a moot statement and honestly I found it pointless to mention. You could work harder than me (honestly you probably do) or you could not. Point being is I don't know and there's no point in verifying. I used the wang contest because it feels like the old cliche "my dick is bigger than yours".


You are right, I don't know. I threw it out in my fit of rage.



So jeopardizing your life makes more sense? I understand your position but you seem to have your priorities out of place.

Living > Having a Home > Having a Job > Having Insurance.... Everything that you are trying to preserve in your life is dependant on you living but you chose to skip out on your MRI.

I am sincerely sorry to hear about your situation but your logic doesn't make sense to me.

Even if you don't believe it to be true, Another job CAN be found. You can't go out and GET another life.


I can't be out of coverage at any point in time, since I have frequent visits with a variety of specialists. Sure I could find any old job, but not one as lucrative, convenient and good developing skills & experience. I don't want to ruin that because my body fails on me.




Oh god.. You're right.. I don't have a clue. I've only worked with people who are severely handicapped, have MS, Crohns, Gastroparesis, POTS and the list goes on and on. You're right I have no clue how you're being treated </sarcasm>.

Don't assume that no one knows what you're going through. That is actually arrogant to assume no one could understand unless you're sick.

Many employers who offer employer based insurance work under a blanket policy; which means that everyone is covered. I sold insurance for a short while in my life (I hated it.. I had a moral dilemna about it) So I do actually know something about it.



All right, through my seeth of rage, I had my blinders on. However when you get sick, you get the complete experience and not just the outside view. I am the only one experiencing it. I'm not trying to say mine is more exceptional than others, many more people have it far worse than me and I'm grateful just to be where I am now. Don't get me wrong. A lot of people that do not experience this situation do not know.



No, you're just complaining and lashing out at someone who NEVER SAID SICK PEOPLE WERE LOOKING FOR HAND OUTS.

You missed the point of my entire post that you lashed out on someone who simply felt that people should not get hand outs. My post was not even specifically about you but rather how this seems to be the going trend.

I am not cold.. I am not callous and I help many sick people in my day to day life. While no one here on this forum can attest to this personally there are a select few whom I talk to offline that have heard of some of my dealings.

Yet people like you, and another poster in another thread (who got his post deleted and I think perhaps banned) attacked me the exact same way. I've searched through the politics forum and find that quite frequently when this is brought up people always attack the person who says they don't want to help people looking for hand outs.

Guess what, Sick people.. the elderly.. the handicapped.. children.. There is a VERY HIGH probability that the posters that say they don't want to help support people looking for hand outs are not talking about the above demographics!!!

Like I said, calm down and get a grip. Not just you but any other sick person out there who thinks people are bashing them. I know first hand that no one wants to be sick. Like I said, I'm sort've surrounded by people with debilitating diseases.


Even you would admit it could've been worded in a way that touches the point of against socialized health-care instead of some pipe-dream jackassery. Yeah, I went overboard, I shouldn't have lashed out just because he doesn't recognize the complexity of the health care issue, it isn't about party, it's about life.

He did say: "Pfff sorry you got in a crash dude but I aint paying for sum bum's healthcare when he destroys his own health and I hit the gym everyday and eat right."

You think this &#&$&$ got a perspective? How did this bum destroy with own health when he got into a crash and wtf does this have to do with you working out? Self-absorbed is correct.

[daihashi]

You think this &#&$&$ got a perspective? How did this bum destroy with own health when he got into a crash and wtf does this have to do with you working out? Self-absorbed is correct.

I took this to mean people who obviously don't care about themselves getting government care paid for through citizen tax dollars when he himself puts forth the effort to take care of himself.. to keep himself healthy to keep himself out of the hospital/doctors office and keep costs down. As opposed to the person who doesn't give a f***, goes and applies for government healthcare, and is constantly in and out of the hospital because he doesn't give a shit. This is abuse of a program and wasteful spending.

I believe that's where he was trying to go with this, not try to lay blame on sick people. I think the majority of this board are compassionate to those truely in need. After all this is a MMJ site.

I'll let Onein1 speak for himself. Hopefully he can sort out what he meant by that for you. :hippy:

[Reefer Rogue]

I'd vote for Obama because i'm liberal thus i agree with his policies compared to Mccain, such as pro choice, social healthcare and a withdrawl of troops asap. Also, i prefer Obama as a person, a speaker and a visionary who will provide the change a new majority of Americans will vote for in this election. Mccain is too old (ageist maybe but i feel it's a valid point) and i dislike his VP, the pitbull with lipstick :rollseyes:

Mccain may be more experianced but he doesn't seem pragmatic or in touch with the reality a lot of American are facing. I think he's too high in the sky with his GOP buddies, sipping champagne in one of his 8 mansions. Good luck to him, a hero who loves his country. He's too reactionary for me, where as i prefer Obamas progressive values.

[OneIn1]

He did say: "Pfff sorry you got in a crash dude but I aint paying for sum bum's healthcare when he destroys his own health and I hit the gym everyday and eat right."

You think this &#&$&$ got a perspective? How did this bum destroy with own health when he got into a crash and wtf does this have to do with you working out? Self-absorbed is correct.

Yea man i did say PFFF as in shit happens and i feel for u man. I said BUM when i was reffering to a BUMMMM not the the man who started the post. Hey bongman sorry u got ur health issues and sorry for ur father but dont tell me u work harder than me and I dont tell me i hav no perspective. Mutha fucka I am 18 years old and lost 3 siblings by the age of six. Countless other things define my perspective but i'm not gunna waste anymore time on the narrow minded.

And working out kinda has to do with ur health, i love how u dont mention about me talking about eating right too but thats alrite bro. If u wanna guess my nex words thats fine but ur wasting ur time. Vote McCain and get on his ass about healthcare but by voting obama he will kill our economy and send more jobs overseas. No way healthcare can work with obama's economic plan.

[rebgirl420]

I dunno, I'm a cancer survivor and I STILL don't believe in Socialised Healthcare.

It's not my job to pay for anyone else but myself (and my family when I have one). If you do not have health insurance you CAN go to the ER. And they WILL allow you to make a payment plan. If your job will not provide you with health insurance then find another job.

The government takes enough of my money for welfare and other socialised programs. I do not mind helping others with SEVERE health issues, however I draw the line with anyone else.

The governement is too big already. Look at the other countries with Socialised healthcare, like Europe and Canada. Have you seen the fucking waits?! I REFUSE to wait 6 months or a CAT scan so skippy McGee down the road can have free healthcare. Canadians are coming to America for health care for christs sake!

It's like, sure everyone will have access to insurance BUT the quality for everyone else's healthcare will go down. Fair? I don't fucking think so.

The government can't even take care of the roads and people want them to take care of our healthcare!? Thats insane! Healthcare is a 1/4 of our economy and people want the government to swoop in and take it over. You think the economy is bad now, oh no my friends it can get a LOT worse.

Wouldn't the smarter thing to do would be to "restore control the the patients themselves". We should embrace the free market! "Use competition to improve the quality of health insurance with greater variety to match people's needs, lower prices, and portability".
_____________________________

Here is McCain's plan:

John McCain's Vision for Health Care Reform

John McCain Believes The Key To Health Care Reform Is To Restore Control To The Patients Themselves. We want a system of health care in which everyone can afford and acquire the treatment and preventative care they need. Health care should be available to all and not limited by where you work or how much you make. Families should be in charge of their health care dollars and have more control over care.

Making Health Insurance Innovative, Portable and Affordable

John McCain Will Reform Health Care Making It Easier For Individuals And Families To Obtain Insurance. An important part of his plan is to use competition to improve the quality of health insurance with greater variety to match people's needs, lower prices, and portability. Families should be able to purchase health insurance nationwide, across state lines.

John McCain Will Reform The Tax Code To Offer More Choices Beyond Employer-Based Health Insurance Coverage. While still having the option of employer-based coverage, every family will receive a direct refundable tax credit - effectively cash - of $2,500 for individuals and $5,000 for families to offset the cost of insurance. Families will be able to choose the insurance provider that suits them best and the money would be sent directly to the insurance provider. Those obtaining innovative insurance that costs less than the credit can deposit the remainder in expanded Health Savings Accounts.

John McCain Proposes Making Insurance More Portable. Americans need insurance that follows them from job to job. They want insurance that is still there if they retire early and does not change if they take a few years off to raise the kids.

John McCain Will Encourage And Expand The Benefits Of Health Savings Accounts (HSAs) For Families. When families are informed about medical choices, they are more capable of making their own decisions and often decide against unnecessary options. Health Savings Accounts take an important step in the direction of putting families in charge of what they pay for.

A Specific Plan of Action: Ensuring Care for Higher Risk Patients

John McCain's Plan Cares For The Traditionally Uninsurable. John McCain understands that those without prior group coverage and those with pre-existing conditions have the most difficulty on the individual market, and we need to make sure they get the high-quality coverage they need.

John McCain Will Work With States To Establish A Guaranteed Access Plan. As President, John McCain will work with governors to develop a best practice model that states can follow - a Guaranteed Access Plan or GAP - that would reflect the best experience of the states to ensure these patients have access to health coverage. One approach would establish a nonprofit corporation that would contract with insurers to cover patients who have been denied insurance and could join with other state plans to enlarge pools and lower overhead costs. There would be reasonable limits on premiums, and assistance would be available for Americans below a certain income level.

John McCain Will Promote Proper Incentives. John McCain will work with Congress, the governors, and industry to make sure this approach is funded adequately and has the right incentives to reduce costs such as disease management, individual case management, and health and wellness programs.

A Specific Plan of Action: Lowering Health Care Costs

John McCain Proposes A Number Of Initiatives That Can Lower Health Care Costs. If we act today, we can lower health care costs for families through common-sense initiatives. Within a decade, health spending will comprise twenty percent of our economy. This is taking an increasing toll on America's families and small businesses. Even Senators Clinton and Obama recognize the pressure skyrocketing health costs place on small business when they exempt small businesses from their employer mandate plans.

CHEAPER DRUGS: Lowering Drug Prices. John McCain will look to bring greater competition to our drug markets through safe re-importation of drugs and faster introduction of generic drugs.

CHRONIC DISEASE: Providing Quality, Cheaper Care For Chronic Disease. Chronic conditions account for three-quarters of the nation's annual health care bill. By emphasizing prevention, early intervention, healthy habits, new treatment models, new public health infrastructure and the use of information technology, we can reduce health care costs. We should dedicate more federal research to caring and curing chronic disease.

COORDINATED CARE: Promoting Coordinated Care. Coordinated care - with providers collaborating to produce the best health care - offers better outcomes at lower cost. We should pay a single bill for high-quality disease care which will make every single provider accountable and responsive to the patients' needs.

GREATER ACCESS AND CONVENIENCE: Expanding Access To Health Care. Families place a high value on quickly getting simple care. Government should promote greater access through walk-in clinics in retail outlets.

INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY: Greater Use Of Information Technology To Reduce Costs. We should promote the rapid deployment of 21st century information systems and technology that allows doctors to practice across state lines.

MEDICAID AND MEDICARE: Reforming The Payment System To Cut Costs. We must reform the payment systems in Medicaid and Medicare to compensate providers for diagnosis, prevention and care coordination. Medicaid and Medicare should not pay for preventable medical errors or mismanagement.

SMOKING: Promoting The Availability Of Smoking Cessation Programs. Most smokers would love to quit but find it hard to do so. Working with business and insurance companies to promote availability, we can improve lives and reduce chronic disease through smoking cessation programs.

STATE FLEXIBILITY: Encouraging States To Lower Costs. States should have the flexibility to experiment with alternative forms of access, coordinated payments per episode covered under Medicaid, use of private insurance in Medicaid, alternative insurance policies and different licensing schemes for providers.

TORT REFORM: Passing Medical Liability Reform. We must pass medical liability reform that eliminates lawsuits directed at doctors who follow clinical guidelines and adhere to safety protocols. Every patient should have access to legal remedies in cases of bad medical practice but that should not be an invitation to endless, frivolous lawsuits.

TRANSPARENCY: Bringing Transparency To Health Care Costs. We must make public more information on treatment options and doctor records, and require transparency regarding medical outcomes, quality of care, costs and prices. We must also facilitate the development of national standards for measuring and recording treatments and outcomes.

Confronting the Long-Term Challenge

John McCain Will Develop A Strategy For Meeting The Challenge Of A Population Needing Greater Long-Term Care. There have been a variety of state-based experiments such as Cash and Counseling or The Program of All-Inclusive Care for the Elderly (PACE) that are pioneering approaches for delivering care to people in a home setting. Seniors are given a monthly stipend which they can use to hire workers and purchase care-related services and goods. They can get help managing their care by designating representatives, such as relatives or friends, to help make decisions. It also offers counseling and bookkeeping services to assist consumers in handling their programmatic responsibilities.

Setting the Record Straight: Covering Those With Pre-Existing Conditions

MYTH: Some Claim That Under John McCain's Plan, Those With Pre-Existing Conditions Would Be Denied Insurance.

FACT: John McCain Supported The Health Insurance Portability And Accountability Act In 1996 That Took The Important Step Of Providing Some Protection Against Exclusion Of Pre-Existing Conditions.

FACT: Nothing In John McCain's Plan Changes The Fact That If You Are Employed And Insured You Will Build Protection Against The Cost Of Any Pre-Existing Condition.

FACT: As President, John McCain Would Work With Governors To Find The Solutions Necessary To Ensure Those With Pre-Existing Conditions Are Able To Easily Access Care.

_________________________________
See people, we don't need big daddy government to take over!

[BigWeed]

I dunno, I'm a cancer survivor and I STILL don't believe in Socialised Healthcare.

It's not my job to pay for anyone else but myself (and my family when I have one). If you do not have health insurance you CAN go to the ER. And they WILL allow you to make a payment plan. If your job will not provide you with health insurance then find another job.

The government takes enough of my money for welfare and other socialised programs. I do not mind helping others with SEVERE health issues, however I draw the line with anyone else.

The governement is too big already. Look at the other countries with Socialised healthcare, like Europe and Canada. Have you seen the fucking waits?! I REFUSE to wait 6 months or a CAT scan so skippy McGee down the road can have free healthcare. Canadians are coming to America for health care for christs sake!

It's like, sure everyone will have access to insurance BUT the quality for everyone else's healthcare will go down. Fair? I don't fucking think so.

The government can't even take care of the roads and people want them to take care of our healthcare!? Thats insane! Healthcare is a 1/4 of our economy and people want the government to swoop in and take it over. You think the economy is bad now, oh no my friends it can get a LOT worse.

Wouldn't the smarter thing to do would be to "restore control the the patients themselves". We should embrace the free market! "Use competition to improve the quality of health insurance with greater variety to match people's needs, lower prices, and portability".
_____________________________

Here is McCain's plan:

John McCain's Vision for Health Care Reform

John McCain Believes The Key To Health Care Reform Is To Restore Control To The Patients Themselves. We want a system of health care in which everyone can afford and acquire the treatment and preventative care they need. Health care should be available to all and not limited by where you work or how much you make. Families should be in charge of their health care dollars and have more control over care.

Making Health Insurance Innovative, Portable and Affordable

John McCain Will Reform Health Care Making It Easier For Individuals And Families To Obtain Insurance. An important part of his plan is to use competition to improve the quality of health insurance with greater variety to match people's needs, lower prices, and portability. Families should be able to purchase health insurance nationwide, across state lines.

John McCain Will Reform The Tax Code To Offer More Choices Beyond Employer-Based Health Insurance Coverage. While still having the option of employer-based coverage, every family will receive a direct refundable tax credit - effectively cash - of $2,500 for individuals and $5,000 for families to offset the cost of insurance. Families will be able to choose the insurance provider that suits them best and the money would be sent directly to the insurance provider. Those obtaining innovative insurance that costs less than the credit can deposit the remainder in expanded Health Savings Accounts.

John McCain Proposes Making Insurance More Portable. Americans need insurance that follows them from job to job. They want insurance that is still there if they retire early and does not change if they take a few years off to raise the kids.

John McCain Will Encourage And Expand The Benefits Of Health Savings Accounts (HSAs) For Families. When families are informed about medical choices, they are more capable of making their own decisions and often decide against unnecessary options. Health Savings Accounts take an important step in the direction of putting families in charge of what they pay for.

A Specific Plan of Action: Ensuring Care for Higher Risk Patients

John McCain's Plan Cares For The Traditionally Uninsurable. John McCain understands that those without prior group coverage and those with pre-existing conditions have the most difficulty on the individual market, and we need to make sure they get the high-quality coverage they need.

John McCain Will Work With States To Establish A Guaranteed Access Plan. As President, John McCain will work with governors to develop a best practice model that states can follow - a Guaranteed Access Plan or GAP - that would reflect the best experience of the states to ensure these patients have access to health coverage. One approach would establish a nonprofit corporation that would contract with insurers to cover patients who have been denied insurance and could join with other state plans to enlarge pools and lower overhead costs. There would be reasonable limits on premiums, and assistance would be available for Americans below a certain income level.

John McCain Will Promote Proper Incentives. John McCain will work with Congress, the governors, and industry to make sure this approach is funded adequately and has the right incentives to reduce costs such as disease management, individual case management, and health and wellness programs.

A Specific Plan of Action: Lowering Health Care Costs

John McCain Proposes A Number Of Initiatives That Can Lower Health Care Costs. If we act today, we can lower health care costs for families through common-sense initiatives. Within a decade, health spending will comprise twenty percent of our economy. This is taking an increasing toll on America's families and small businesses. Even Senators Clinton and Obama recognize the pressure skyrocketing health costs place on small business when they exempt small businesses from their employer mandate plans.

CHEAPER DRUGS: Lowering Drug Prices. John McCain will look to bring greater competition to our drug markets through safe re-importation of drugs and faster introduction of generic drugs.

CHRONIC DISEASE: Providing Quality, Cheaper Care For Chronic Disease. Chronic conditions account for three-quarters of the nation's annual health care bill. By emphasizing prevention, early intervention, healthy habits, new treatment models, new public health infrastructure and the use of information technology, we can reduce health care costs. We should dedicate more federal research to caring and curing chronic disease.

COORDINATED CARE: Promoting Coordinated Care. Coordinated care - with providers collaborating to produce the best health care - offers better outcomes at lower cost. We should pay a single bill for high-quality disease care which will make every single provider accountable and responsive to the patients' needs.

GREATER ACCESS AND CONVENIENCE: Expanding Access To Health Care. Families place a high value on quickly getting simple care. Government should promote greater access through walk-in clinics in retail outlets.

INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY: Greater Use Of Information Technology To Reduce Costs. We should promote the rapid deployment of 21st century information systems and technology that allows doctors to practice across state lines.

MEDICAID AND MEDICARE: Reforming The Payment System To Cut Costs. We must reform the payment systems in Medicaid and Medicare to compensate providers for diagnosis, prevention and care coordination. Medicaid and Medicare should not pay for preventable medical errors or mismanagement.

SMOKING: Promoting The Availability Of Smoking Cessation Programs. Most smokers would love to quit but find it hard to do so. Working with business and insurance companies to promote availability, we can improve lives and reduce chronic disease through smoking cessation programs.

STATE FLEXIBILITY: Encouraging States To Lower Costs. States should have the flexibility to experiment with alternative forms of access, coordinated payments per episode covered under Medicaid, use of private insurance in Medicaid, alternative insurance policies and different licensing schemes for providers.

TORT REFORM: Passing Medical Liability Reform. We must pass medical liability reform that eliminates lawsuits directed at doctors who follow clinical guidelines and adhere to safety protocols. Every patient should have access to legal remedies in cases of bad medical practice but that should not be an invitation to endless, frivolous lawsuits.

TRANSPARENCY: Bringing Transparency To Health Care Costs. We must make public more information on treatment options and doctor records, and require transparency regarding medical outcomes, quality of care, costs and prices. We must also facilitate the development of national standards for measuring and recording treatments and outcomes.

Confronting the Long-Term Challenge

John McCain Will Develop A Strategy For Meeting The Challenge Of A Population Needing Greater Long-Term Care. There have been a variety of state-based experiments such as Cash and Counseling or The Program of All-Inclusive Care for the Elderly (PACE) that are pioneering approaches for delivering care to people in a home setting. Seniors are given a monthly stipend which they can use to hire workers and purchase care-related services and goods. They can get help managing their care by designating representatives, such as relatives or friends, to help make decisions. It also offers counseling and bookkeeping services to assist consumers in handling their programmatic responsibilities.

Setting the Record Straight: Covering Those With Pre-Existing Conditions

MYTH: Some Claim That Under John McCain's Plan, Those With Pre-Existing Conditions Would Be Denied Insurance.

FACT: John McCain Supported The Health Insurance Portability And Accountability Act In 1996 That Took The Important Step Of Providing Some Protection Against Exclusion Of Pre-Existing Conditions.

FACT: Nothing In John McCain's Plan Changes The Fact That If You Are Employed And Insured You Will Build Protection Against The Cost Of Any Pre-Existing Condition.

FACT: As President, John McCain Would Work With Governors To Find The Solutions Necessary To Ensure Those With Pre-Existing Conditions Are Able To Easily Access Care.

_________________________________
See people, we don't need big daddy government to take over!


Hey rebgirl under McCains plan its not enough. I pay by myself over 8500 dollars annually thats just me alone. My kids and wife are covered under her employers plan thank god. Under his plan Ill get 2500 dollars which will make my cost go down to 6000 annually. I can afford the 8500 and the 2500 dollars off would be nice but what about all the other familys that cant afford to pay. Im not saying give them hand outs but there are people that work hard and cant afford it. I just hope my insurance cost dont go up. I know your going to ask why Im not on my wifes plan I have a pre condition.:rasta::rastasmoke::pimp:

[BigWeed]

Hey rebgirl thanks for posting that plan some of it is good but it needs work just like Obamas need more work on his K+ to you. What they need to do is go after these fucking insurance companys they are the crooks.:rasta::rastasmoke::pimp:

[flyingimam]

Hey rebgirl thanks for posting that plan some of it is good but it needs work just like Obamas need more work on his K+ to you. What they need to do is go after these fucking insurance companys they are the crooks.:rasta::rastasmoke::pimp:

true that.

[rebgirl420]

Hey rebgirl thanks for posting that plan some of it is good but it needs work just like Obamas need more work on his K+ to you. What they need to do is go after these fucking insurance companys they are the crooks.:rasta::rastasmoke::pimp:

I agree.

McCain's plan isn't 100% but it's a start.

And I believe that we do need to change a lot of things when it comes to the insurance companies. I just think that Obama's plan gives the government too much power over something it knows little about.

[thcbongman]

Yea man i did say PFFF as in shit happens and i feel for u man. I said BUM when i was reffering to a BUMMMM not the the man who started the post. Hey bongman sorry u got ur health issues and sorry for ur father but dont tell me u work harder than me and I dont tell me i hav no perspective. Mutha fucka I am 18 years old and lost 3 siblings by the age of six. Countless other things define my perspective but i'm not gunna waste anymore time on the narrow minded.

And working out kinda has to do with ur health, i love how u dont mention about me talking about eating right too but thats alrite bro. If u wanna guess my nex words thats fine but ur wasting ur time. Vote McCain and get on his ass about healthcare but by voting obama he will kill our economy and send more jobs overseas. No way healthcare can work with obama's economic plan.

Guess what dude? Before I got cancer I was working out, eating right (although this should be assumed if you work-out to begin with, should I shit you that you didn't mention about sleeping 7-8 hours a night? ) You know what though? It's positive personal choice and shouldn't give you a right of entitlement.

However you still don't get it. I don't give a shit about McCain or Obama, neither of them will change much. However the words you slinged are straight up ignorant and insulting. You gotta open up your eyes that most people want to work but unfortunate things happen and can't assume everyone getting government money or benefits is a leech or a bum. I'm not denying there a serious problem with the welfare system in America, but its comparing apples to oranges.

Although I do apologize. My initial post came during a time of a lot of stress and I took it out on you.

[dragonrider]

Bigweed posted Obama's healthcare plan in another thread, and here is my summary of the things I think are the main points:


There will be a new national health plan available to all Americans to buy affordable health coverage that is similar to the plan available to members of Congress. The plan will cover all essential medical services, including preventive, maternity and mental health care.

The plan will have guaranteed eligibility --- no one will be turned away from any insurance plan because of illness or pre-existing conditions. To me that is key, because right now if you are already sick, you cannot get into a plan.

Individuals and families who do not qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP but still need financial assistance will receive an income-related federal subsidy to buy into the new public plan or purchase a private health care plan.

Participants in the new public plan will be able to move from job to job without changing or jeopardizing their health care coverage. That is another key thing. I know people who stick with the same crappy job because they can't afford losing their coverage if they change jobs.


RebGirl said she thinks Obama's plan gives the government too much control over something it doesn't know much about, and others on these boards have called Obama's plan "socialized" medicine.

What exactly is it in the plan that you think gives government too much control? And how is it that Obama's plan gives more control than McCain's?

What exactly is it in the plan that you think is "socialized"? And how is it that Obama's plan is more "socialized" than McCain's?

I don't think there is anything in Obama's plan that gives government more control than McCain's or makes it more "socialized" than McCain's. I think those charges play on some kind of liberal-Democrat stereotype about big government and socialism that has no basis in fact.

If you are going to make those accusations, please point out specifically what supports those argumants.

Here is Bigweed's post of Obama's plan:


The Problem

Millions of Americans are uninsured or underinsured because of rising medical costs: 47 million Americans â?? including nearly 9 million children â?? lack health insurance with no signs of this trend slowing down.
Health care costs are skyrocketing: Health insurance premiums have risen 4 times faster than wages over the past 6 years.
Too little is spent on prevention and public health: The nation faces epidemics of obesity and chronic diseases as well as new threats of pandemic flu and bioterrorism. Yet despite all of this less than 4 cents of every health care dollar is spent on prevention and public health.
Barack Obama's Plan

Quality, Affordable and Portable Coverage for All


Obama's Plan to Cover Uninsured Americans: Obama will make available a new national health plan to all Americans, including the self-employed and small businesses, to buy affordable health coverage that is similar to the plan available to members of Congress. The Obama plan will have the following features:
Guaranteed eligibility. No American will be turned away from any insurance plan because of illness or pre-existing conditions.
Comprehensive benefits. The benefit package will be similar to that offered through Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP), the plan members of Congress have. The plan will cover all essential medical services, including preventive, maternity and mental health care.
Affordable premiums, co-pays and deductibles.
Subsidies. Individuals and families who do not qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP but still need financial assistance will receive an income-related federal subsidy to buy into the new public plan or purchase a private health care plan.
Simplified paperwork and reined in health costs.
Easy enrollment. The new public plan will be simple to enroll in and provide ready access to coverage.
Portability and choice. Participants in the new public plan and the National Health Insurance Exchange (see below) will be able to move from job to job without changing or jeopardizing their health care coverage.
Quality and efficiency. Participating insurance companies in the new public program will be required to report data to ensure that standards for quality, health information technology and administration are being met.
National Health Insurance Exchange: The Obama plan will create a National Health Insurance Exchange to help individuals who wish to purchase a private insurance plan. The Exchange will act as a watchdog group and help reform the private insurance market by creating rules and standards for participating insurance plans to ensure fairness and to make individual coverage more affordable and accessible. Insurers would have to issue every applicant a policy, and charge fair and stable premiums that will not depend upon health status. The Exchange will require that all the plans offered are at least as generous as the new public plan and have the same standards for quality and efficiency. The Exchange would evaluate plans and make the differences among the plans, including cost of services, public.
Employer Contribution: Employers that do not offer or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees will be required to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of the national plan. Small employers that meet certain revenue thresholds will be exempt.
Mandatory Coverage of Children: Obama will require that all children have health care coverage. Obama will expand the number of options for young adults to get coverage, including allowing young people up to age 25 to continue coverage through their parents' plans.
Expansion Of Medicaid and SCHIP: Obama will expand eligibility for the Medicaid and SCHIP programs and ensure that these programs continue to serve their critical safety net function.
Flexibility for State Plans: Due to federal inaction, some states have taken the lead in health care reform. The Obama plan builds on these efforts and does not replace what states are doing. States can continue to experiment, provided they meet the minimum standards of the national plan.Lower Costs by Modernizing The U.S. Health Care System


Reducing Costs of Catastrophic Illnesses for Employers and Their Employees: Catastrophic health expenditures account for a high percentage of medical expenses for private insurers. The Obama plan would reimburse employer health plans for a portion of the catastrophic costs they incur above a threshold if they guarantee such savings are used to reduce the cost of workers' premiums.
Helping Patients:
Support disease management programs. Seventy five percent of total health care dollars are spent on patients with one or more chronic conditions, such as diabetes, heart disease and high blood pressure. Obama will require that providers that participate in the new public plan, Medicare or the Federal Employee Health Benefits Program (FEHBP) utilize proven disease management programs. This will improve quality of care, give doctors better information and lower costs.
Coordinate and integrate care. Over 133 million Americans have at least one chronic disease and these chronic conditions cost a staggering $1.7 trillion yearly. Obama will support implementation of programs and encourage team care that will improve coordination and integration of care of those with chronic conditions.
Require full transparency about quality and costs. Obama will require hospitals and providers to collect and publicly report measures of health care costs and quality, including data on preventable medical errors, nurse staffing ratios, hospital-acquired infections, and disparities in care. Health plans will also be required to disclose the percentage of premiums that go to patient care as opposed to administrative costs.
Ensuring Providers Deliver Quality Care:
Promote patient safety. Obama will require providers to report preventable medical errors and support hospital and physician practice improvement to prevent future occurrences.
Align incentives for excellence. Both public and private insurers tend to pay providers based on the volume of services provided, rather than the quality or effectiveness of care. Providers who see patients enrolled in the new public plan, the National Health Insurance Exchange, Medicare and FEHBP will be rewarded for achieving performance thresholds on outcome measures.
Comparative effectiveness research. Obama will establish an independent institute to guide reviews and research on comparative effectiveness, so that Americans and their doctors will have the accurate and objective information they need to make the best decisions for their health and well-being.
Tackle disparities in health care. Obama will tackle the root causes of health disparities by addressing differences in access to health coverage and promoting prevention and public health, both of which play a major role in addressing disparities. He will also challenge the medical system to eliminate inequities in health care through quality measurement and reporting, implementation of effective interventions such as patient navigation programs, and diversification of the health workforce.
Insurance reform. Obama will strengthen antitrust laws to prevent insurers from overcharging physicians for their malpractice insurance and will promote new models for addressing errors that improve patient safety, strengthen the doctor-patient relationship and reduce the need for malpractice suits.
Lowering Costs Through Investment in Electronic Health Information Technology Systems: Most medical records are still stored on paper, which makes it hard to coordinate care, measure quality or reduce medical errors and which costs twice as much as electronic claims. Obama will invest $10 billion a year over the next five years to move the U.S. health care system to broad adoption of standards-based electronic health information systems, including electronic health records, and will phase in requirements for full implementation of health IT. Obama will ensure that patients' privacy is protected.
Lowering Costs by Increasing Competition in the Insurance and Drug Markets: The insurance business today is dominated by a small group of large companies that has been gobbling up their rivals. There have been over 400 health care mergers in the last 10 years, and just two companies dominate a full third of the national market. These changes were supposed to make the industry more efficient, but instead premiums have skyrocketed by over 87 percent.
Barack Obama will prevent companies from abusing their monopoly power through unjustified price increases. His plan will force insurers to pay out a reasonable share of their premiums for patient care instead of keeping exorbitant amounts for profits and administration. His new National Health Exchange will help increase competition by insurers.
Lower prescription drug costs. The second-fastest growing type of health expenses is prescription drugs. Pharmaceutical companies are selling the exact same drugs in Europe and Canada but charging Americans more than double the price. Obama will allow Americans to buy their medicines from other developed countries if the drugs are safe and prices are lower outside the U.S. Obama will also repeal the ban that prevents the government from negotiating with drug companies, which could result in savings as high as $30 billion. Finally, Obama will work to increase the use of generic drugs in Medicare, Medicaid, and FEHBP and prohibit big name drug companies from keeping generics out of markets.Fight for New Initiatives


Advance the Biomedical Research Field: As a result of biomedical research the prevention, early detection and treatment of diseases such as cancer and heart disease is better today than any other time in history. Barack Obama has consistently supported funding for the national institutes of health and the national science foundation. Obama strongly supports investments in biomedical research, as well as medical education and training in health-related fields, because it provides the foundation for new therapies and diagnostics. Obama has been a champion of research in cancer, mental health, health disparities, global health, women and children's health, and veterans' health. As president, Obama will strengthen funding for biomedical research, and better improve the efficiency of that research by improving coordination both within government and across government/private/non-profit partnerships. An Obama administration will ensure that we translate scientific progress into improved approaches to disease prevention, early detection and therapy that is available for all Americans.
Fight AIDS Worldwide. There are 40 million people across the planet infected with HIV/AIDS. As president, Obama will continue to be a global leader in the fight against AIDS. Obama believes in working across party lines to combat this epidemic and recently joined Senator Sam Brownback (R-KS) at a large California evangelical church to promote greater investment in the global AIDS battle.
Support Americans with Disabilities: As a former civil rights lawyer, Barack Obama knows firsthand the importance of strong protections for minority communities in our society. Obama is committed to strengthening and better enforcing the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) so that future generations of Americans with disabilities have equal rights and opportunities. Obama believes we must restore the original legislative intent of the ADA in the wake of court decisions that have restricted the interpretation of this landmark legislation.

Barack Obama is also committed to ensuring that disabled Americans receive Medicaid and Medicare benefits in a low-cost, effective and timely manner. Recognizing that many individuals with disabilities rely on Medicare, Obama worked with Senator Ken Salazar (D-CO) to urge the department of health and human services to provide clear and reliable information on the Medicare prescription drug benefit and to ensure that the Medicare recipients were protected from fraudulent claims by marketers and drug plan agents.
Improve Mental Health Care. Mental illness affects approximately one in five American families. The National Alliance on Mental Illness estimates that untreated mental illnesses cost the U.S. more than $100 billion per year. As president, Obama will support mental health parity so that coverage for serious mental illnesses are provided on the same terms and conditions as other illnesses and diseases.
Protect Our Children from Lead Poisoning. More than 430,000 American children have dangerously high levels of lead in their blood. Lead can cause irreversible brain damage, learning disabilities, behavioral problems, and, at very high levels, seizures, coma and death. As president, Obama will protect children from lead poisoning by requiring that child care facilities be lead-safe within five years.
Reduce Risks of Mercury Pollution. More than five million women of childbearing age have high levels of toxic mercury in their blood, and approximately 630,000 newborns are born at risk every year. Barack Obama has a plan to significantly reduce the amount of mercury that is deposited in oceans, lakes, and rivers, which in turn would reduce the amount of mercury in fish.
Support Americans with Autism. More than one million Americans have autism, a complex neurobiological condition that has a range of impacts on thinking, feeling, language, and the ability to relate to others. As diagnostic criteria broaden and awareness increases, more cases of autism have been recognized across the country. Barack Obama believes that we can do more to help autistic Americans and their families understand and live with autism. He has been a strong supporter of more than $1 billion in federal funding for autism research on the root causes and treatments, and he believes that we should increase funding for the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act to truly ensure that no child is left behind.

More than anything, autism remains a profound mystery with a broad spectrum of effects on autistic individuals, their families, loved ones, the community, and education and health care systems. Obama believes that the government and our communities should work together to provide a helping hand to autistic individuals and their families.Barack Obama's Record


Health Insurance: In 2003, Barack Obama sponsored and passed legislation that expanded health care coverage to 70,000 kids and 84,000 adults. In the U.S. Senate, Obama cosponsored the Healthy Kids Act of 2007 and the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) Reauthorization Act of 2007 to ensure that more American children have affordable health care coverage.
Women's Health: Obama worked to pass a number of laws in Illinois and Washington to improve the health of women. His accomplishments include creating a task force on cervical cancer, providing greater access to breast and cervical cancer screenings, and helping improve prenatal and premature birth services.
I want you to read this and Ill post more tonight I have plenty for you and I like this debate I hope you will continue it with me. I also have some more of Mccains plans as well. I love knowlegde also so keep it comig.:rasta::rastasmoke::pimp:

[dragonrider]

Many employers who offer employer based insurance work under a blanket policy; which means that everyone is covered. I sold insurance for a short while in my life (I hated it.. I had a moral dilemna about it) So I do actually know something about it.


I know you said you sold insurance and actually know something about it, but I do not think the term "blanket policy" or "blanket insurance" means what you say it does. I don't think that term applies to health insurance at all.

I think "blanket insurance" means coverage for more than one type of property at one location or one type of property at more than one location, and it applies to property/casualty insurance, not health insurance. An example would be if a chain store wanted to insure all its store locations.

When a company provides health insurance or life insurance to all its employees, without making each one qualify individually, I think it's called "group insurance," not "blanket inusrance."

[grow1964]

My apologies in advance, this is going to be along post but one that I feel is important for people to understand.

Its interesting that I posted about this very subject on another board about a week ago. Since it is all fresh in my mind I will point out a few things that many haven't figured out yet.
1st, It matters little who the president is. He has has the option to pass or veto legislation but your congresscritters are the ones who ultimately do the writing of these things. There's also little difference between dems and republicans anymore. In the end they all want the same thing. Socialism.

There's another thread here asking about what freedoms we have lost. I was going to post there but decided this was a better place to make some points.
How about the freedom to take care and provide for myself without government interference? How about personal choice? Do i really need the government o do everything or provide everything for me? There's a pattern here. The more you ask of government the more they will provide and the more they will tax and the more they will destroy.
Remember the power to tax is the power to destroy and a government that is big enough to give you everything is also big enough to take it away.


Now to get down to the facts.
26% of the US is on food stamps. 30% of the US will be retired in the next 30 years. The us had a federal debt load of over 10 trillion dollars. Unfunded liabilities for SS medicare and medicaid are around 55 trillion right now and its not even spoken about by either of the candidates..

Why does all of this matter? Because in order to pay off all this debt we are already carrying every man woman and child in the US would need to write a check to the government for 175,000.00 today. I'm sure many of you have that extra cash lying around but I don't. You'll see how all of this ties in shortly.

Lets look at insurance.. What a fiasco. Ok, heres the deal. This is how insurance should work. First car insurance. If I decide I want to carry insurance to protect my assets that a personal choice. If I don't have any assetts why should I need to carry any insurance. The popular argument seems to be , what if you have an accident and dont have insurance? The answer is I get sued for damages. What if the other guy gets hurt, who's going to pay for him? Did the other guy have insurance? Did he have assetts to protect? If he had something worth protecting then it is his responsibility to get insurance if he so chooses.
In order to understand this fully you also have to understand wh was responsible for getting these insurance laws passed. The lawyers and the insurance companies. Why? Because the lawyers need someone to sue. If i dont have insurance, and I dont have any assetts is there much incentive for an attorney to take a case? He may never get paid. If he is suing the ins. companies he is gaurenteed a payday.

Why do insurance companies want everyone to have ins? It lowers their risk exposure. If there wasn't a mandatory requirement than probably 1/2 or more of all the people would drop their insurance. Now the insurance companies would have to manage their risk very carefully.

What happens now when an 18 yo gets into an accident and does 500k in damage? Yes his rates go up but the reality is he will never pay 500k in premiums for his entire life!!! So the same kid gets back in his car a year later knowing that all that happened last accident was an increase in his premiums. He now goes out and gets into another accident and costs another 500k . Insurance company is now on the hook for a million from this one person. 2 things to be learned from this. 1) The kid obviously isnt going to be driving more careful. there's no incentive to. 2) The insurance company will get their money back just not all from him. How? Higher premiums for everyone. Basically we have socialized insurance already.

I know the popular argument is that its better this way because if you get really hurt then at least you will get your medical bills paid and get a settlement out of it. My response to that is it is your responsibility to make the decision to carry that insurance or not. If you have awife and kids and a house and other assets than of course it makes a lot of sense to carry insurance. If not then you should at least have the ability to decide if you want the risk or not. Its called freedom to choose.

Health insurance. Same basic principle. Carry it or dont carry it, its your choice. If you don't carry it the hospitals will still get paid. As you know already, if you have insurance your bils are higher than if you pay cash. Now imagine if everyone paid cash? People would bitch up a storm when they got the bill 1200 for an emergency room visit. Now, people just look at the bill and say, wow glad i have insurance. Again gaurenteed profit for the health care industry. It no secret why the health care industry wants a system where the government will reimburse them for every claim. They can charge almost anything they want and will not get screamed at on the other side of the phone when and Irate patient calls to complain about the bill.

Why are health care costs skyrocketing? An aging population on medicare and medicaid. Government benefits and they know they can charge whatever they want within reason and get paid. Why did the drug companies lobby so hard to get the prescription drug bill passed? They knew they would be on the government gravy train if it passed and they were right. As soon as it passed it added aprox 20 trillion to the unfunded liabilities in this country. That trillion with a capital Fucking T. Does anyone get it yet? All these socialized programs are being pushed on us by the big corps so they can pad their fucking bottom lines. How many goddamn drugs do we need in this country. Of all people the people here should understand this. How many new diseases do we create every year? Do you hear some of this shit they come up with on these drugomercials?
Got a headache? Take this pill, caution the sides effects may be, loss of sleep, loss of hair, loss of sexual function, loss of bowel control, vomiting, nausea, blindness, in makes has been known to cause breast to grow and the penis to fall off. But you will get of your headache.
Ok so its an extreme example but you get the point. I'll give you an example of the opposite extreme.

In Cuba they have socialized medicine or free healthcare. Yes it sucks. As with most of Cuba it is like being back in the 50's. I love the people and the culture for many reasons but they do have shitty healthcare. If we compare the 2 countries we find the following.
America was the richest nation on earth. Cuba is one of the poorest. Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate. Cuba has a lower rate of diabietes and heart disease. Cub has a slightly higher life expectancy.

How can this be? America spends more per capita than 90% of the rest of the world on health care? How about corporate profits?

If you really want socialized medicine than the only way is to make them government 100%. No corporate involvement at all and no profit motive at all. Anything less than that is merely making corporate profits socialized at the expense of you and me.

Ok, there are more arguments in here as well, like what about people who don't work, who pays for them ect.. Those are smaller points we can deal with but first we have to understand the big picture.

My own opinion, let me make my own choices. That's freedom.

America is bankrupt. We cant afford socialism anymore. You can fight about the dems and repubs and in fact that's exactly what corporate America wants. It takes your attention away from the big picture which is what I described above. The corps are raping us every chance they get. They spend lots of money on lobbyists an get the laws changed so they can make more money.

Oh and by the way, its already been decided by the Supreme court that mandatory health insurance is unconstitutional. I know they have it here in Ma but it doesn't change the facts. There was an article in the USA today late last year with Ma as an example and they mentioned i there as well. How did ma get around it? They didn't, If you don't carry insurance it a 180.00 fine for the year. Pay that or hire a lawyer to go to court at 300 an hour.

I'll stop here for now, but I hope you can all understand what is really happening here and why its important to wake up as a nation and stop playin this petty party politics BS.

[daihashi]

I know you said you sold insurance and actually know something about it, but I do not think the term "blanket policy" or "blanket insurance" means what you say it does. I don't think that term applies to health insurance at all.

I think "blanket insurance" means coverage for more than one type of property at one location or one type of property at more than one location, and it applies to property/casualty insurance, not health insurance. An example would be if a chain store wanted to insure all its store locations.

When a company provides health insurance or life insurance to all its employees, without making each one qualify individually, I think it's called "group insurance," not "blanket inusrance."

Blanket is a term that can be used in many types of policy write ups. It is usually written for larger companies who have a number of employees to be able to cover them all. Typically this type of insurance is usually available through larger companies; corporations such as exxon-mobil, microsoft or any other large company.

Blanket can be used in Life insurance, health or other things.

Feel free to take your Group 1 license and Health Insurance license to find out for yourself ;). The test varies from state to state but is pretty close to being the same regardless of where you are in the US.

[dragonrider]

Blanket is a term that can be used in many types of policy write ups. It is usually written for larger companies who have a number of employees to be able to cover them all. Typically this type of insurance is usually available through larger companies; corporations such as exxon-mobil, microsoft or any other large company.

Blanket can be used in Life insurance, health or other things.

Feel free to take your Group 1 license and Health Insurance license to find out for yourself ;). The test varies from state to state but is pretty close to being the same regardless of where you are in the US.

Well, this might have been a quibble on my part. And I'm certainly in no position to argue, because I don't have a license, and I do not work in insurance. But I think the point you were making to Bigweed is that employers offer coverage to groups of employees, without indvidual employees having to qualify --- individuals are not denied based on pre-existing conditions, which is what he was worried about. I think the kind of insurance in which a group is covered without inidividuals having to qualify is called "group insurance."

Maybe "blanket" is used in health insurance as well, but I don't think the term refers to the idea that individuls don't have to qualify. I think it has more to do with insuring classes of things at multiple locations --- I don't know how that would apply to health insurance, but maybe it would refer to a policy that covers a class of employees in multiple factories? I've only ever heard it used in reference to property/casualty coverage, so I do not know what it means in relation to health insurance.

Anyway, I think the term "group insurance" ALWAYS refers to insuring a group, without individuals having to qualify. While "blanket" might refer to that kind of thing as well, but it might also have a lot of different meanings that do not mean individuals do not have to qualify.

Whatever. Like I said, I don't work in this field. But I think you are always safe calling it "group insurance" when you refer to a policy that covers a group, without individuals having to qualify.

[daihashi]

Well, this might have been a quibble on my part. And I'm certainly in no position to argue, because I don't have a license, and I do not work in insurance. But I think the point you were making to Bigweed is that employers offer coverage to groups of employees, without indvidual employees having to qualify --- individuals are not denied based on pre-existing conditions, which is what he was worried about. I think the kind of insurance in which a group is covered without inidividuals having to qualify is called "group insurance."

Maybe "blanket" is used in health insurance as well, but I don't think the term refers to the idea that individuls don't have to qualify. I think it has more to do with insuring classes of things at multiple locations --- I don't know how that would apply to health insurance, but maybe it would refer to a policy that covers a class of employees in multiple factories? I've only ever heard it used in reference to property/casualty coverage, so I do not know what it means in relation to health insurance.

Anyway, I think the term "group insurance" ALWAYS refers to insuring a group, without individuals having to qualify. While "blanket" might refer to that kind of thing as well, but it might also have a lot of different meanings that do not mean individuals do not have to qualify.

Whatever. Like I said, I don't work in this field. But I think you are always safe calling it "group insurance" when you refer to a policy that covers a group, without individuals having to qualify.

sigh... no.. there is group insurance and within the group insurance you can have a blanket policy.

Many corporations will pay a premium to have this blanket coverage included, but don't take my word for it. Granted I only sold the crap, and quit because of a moral dilema I felt at times... but feel free to inquire. :hippy:

Group and Blanket are indeed two seperate terms meaning two seperate things, but you can have policies that utilize both.

[BigWeed]

The problem Im having with Insurance is the companys. I think they take advantage of the hard working people of America. When I got hurt the trucking company of the guy that hit me they payed for all my medical care and gave me a really nice settlement. How is it that my Insurance thourgh my job tripled and my boss couldnt afford it and then I had to take it over so I could stay covered. The cost went down when I took it over but not very much and when I had to have my last operation on may shoulder at the end of last year they tried to raise it and they werent the ones paying for it I was still covered by the trucking company. The only thing they keep telling me is that I have a pre condition and I might have more mental problems in the future. Hell how do they know that Ill have problems in the future are they fortune tellers now. I think they need to be regulated and they need to get a clue. Oh yeah the pre condition is that I've had a lot of broken bones If I remember correcttly bones heal and they dont break by themselves.:rasta::rastasmoke::pimp: