Wilt to Sudden death

[dab7wr2]

I am in DWC with plenty of air in the buckets, 4th week of flower, 1000W HPS, using GH nutes, PH stable at 5.4-5.7, nutes ranging from 600-700ppm, temp is 75-84 day, RH = 49-56%.

Two days ago I notice the water level has not gone down like the other buckets which eat about a 1/4 gal per day and checked to make sure all the nutes and PH was correct. Everything checked out fine. Today all the leaves are drooping to an extreme measure as if the plant has stopped all water/nute takeup. the roots have been in water that has mass air supplied. I first soaked the root ball in a solution of H2O2 and water to see if I could not get some troubles corrected before I got a new solution. I changed the buckets water and nutes to 550 ppm and 5.5 ph and see no change after 8 hrs. roots are health and white/yellow.

I will also mention I have never seen this before and I had a larger 4 footer do the same thing in veg about a month ago and the crop just dies off after 5 days for no apparent reason. I am expierenced with DWC so I am stunned at the problem.

The pictures show a 4 footer on the left that in 48 hours went from a vigorous plant to looking like death. the crop to the right is exactly the same setup and is looking spectacular. nutes around 650ppm and all loving it except this crop.

Need some advice quick before she is gone :wtf:!!! Thanks

[veggii]

Hi, dab7wr2
please fill out this trouble shooting form so cummunity can assist you proper ty.
http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-problems/127058-troubleshooting-form-yay-you-know-you-wanted-one.html

[dab7wr2]

H=Answer if you grow hydro or aero
Hydro
T=Answer if you grow in HydroTon
Hydroton

E= EVERYONE needs to answer lol!


E-indoor
E-hydroponic
E-Hydroton
HCL-Hydro/aero/soilless system type
DWC bubble buckets
E-Water source - RO

E-Source water pH - 6.7

HRT-Source water EC (if hydro) - 2 ppm

E-Age of plant - 87 days total, 27 days in 12/12 flower

E-Type of fertilizer - GH 3-part micro, gro, bloom

E-Rate of application (if hydro, this is your PPM number, preferably after each component is added)
600-700 PPM
E-Lighting source and distance from plant - 1000w HPS, 24 inch above

E-Air temperature - night - 68-72 F, day 75-85 F

HD-Reservoir temperature - 75 F

E-Air % Relative humidity - night - 40-45%, day - 50-55%

E-Lighting schedule - 12/12

E-Type of ventilation your room has - 6 inch ducting for the HPS to outside, dehumidifier, multiple fans

TR-Did you pre-soak your media in pH corrected solution? - yes, washed hydroton in the beginning 4 months ago

[veggii]

dab I'm not a hydro guy i am a noobi soil learner..LoL but I didn't see in your form any CO2 or fresh air intake? do you have any of that? give it a little time, the hydro pro's will show up too help you ....:jointsmile:

[dab7wr2]

ya I have fresh air coming in on both sides of the room and run CO2 off a tank with a regulator. My lights are vented from outside air then go back outside on the other side. This is not a first grow in the room, there are other plants that are just fine and vigorous all around this one. This randomly happend to one in veg like a month ago and I have never seen this problem in 3 years. It is almost like the roots completly stopped uptaking anything, like a clone where it only absorbs moisture into the leaves from the high humidity because of no root system, yet it has a root ball the size of a basketball that is very health looking. I also soaked in H2O2 to try and help rid anything bad on the roots.

[veggii]

dab aww man none of them guys came too help you out. not too worry stinkyattic will be online in the morning she'll help you,shes a genuis walking/talking/typing cannabis encyclopedia/wiki/nobel prize winner(oneday).
so get online in the morning cya:thumbsup:

[Weedhound]

Your ph needs to remain between 5.6-6.2 at all times. 6.7 is a fair amount too high and even if it's been that way the whole time change it to 5.6-62 and watch it constantly.

How often are you changing your solutions?

Your water temp should be closer 65-70 degrees to prevent root rot.

Also be sure you have enough areation in your water and nute solutions also for root health.

Root rot could well be your problem here. Are you using anything for root health such as a zyme product?

So could the fact that you are not using any CalMag according to your troubleshooting form but ARE using RO water so you could have some pretty good calcium, magnesium, iron or or mineral deficiencies as well or.........even just general UNDERfert....600-700 is pretty close to nothing in flower even if you are using a 500 conversion from EC. Most people are up to LEAST 1200 or more by that time.


Got SEVERAL issues going on and the problem could be any of them or a combination of all three so I'd fix all of them asap.

good luck.

[dab7wr2]

CORRECTION: the PH of my solution in res is 5.5, my RO water is at 6.7... sorry for the confusion.

change solution every 2-3 weeks. They eat about 2 gallons every 4 days so i replenish with a 3/4 solution.

I run the heavy duty commericial air pumps so areation is no problem.

I have other buckets running the same nutrient solution and are the same size with no current problems. all of which are at 600-750ppm.

roots are in healthy condition, trust me I have seen some bad root rot before.

[stinkyattic]

That's a big plant [read:big root mass] for standard-sized DWC. Root rot is most likely your culprit; you can do a couple things to try and save your plant, and the rest of the crop:

-Raise the lights, or better, switch to flouros right away to reduce water loss, and personally I'd turn off the CO2 tank. You want to slow them down a little because fast metabolism means fast water loss, which you can't afford with nonfunctional roots.

-Next, see if you can't manually insert some more air stones INTO the center of the root ball- the areas with least access to oxygen harbor the most potential for rot to form in those nasty anaerobic conditions.

-Run a 'zyme product to remove all dead material from the reservoir, following instructions PERFECTLY and changing the res a couple times because it will release a lot of useable nutes into solution- which you actually DON'T want, since it's at an unknown level/ratio.

-Explore your options for a larger reservoir. High biomass and low volume mean that chemistry is VERY difficult to control and you will have all manner of troubles.

Weedhound, can you link to where you went through your root problem before you switched to livestock feed tub DWC? I think there's enough material for a DWC root rot sticky in there, because the process and solution are really well documented!
(I'm sending good vibes your way too! :D)

EDIT: WH is right about pH and CalMAg too.

[Weedhound]

How about a photo of your roots......all trust aside. Good that you have some stuff going well but lack of Cal Mag is a biggie.....and tells me that there are some gaps in your knowledge so trust isn't really the issue here.....knowledge is.

They're your plants.....I have no time or energy to argue abo ut things. You asked for assistance and I offered what I know....that's all you'll get from me and if you're darn sure you know whats right and whats not I'll leave you to it.

Sorry to sound like such a bitch but I've just received a bit of pretty bad news so my remaining time is literally limited.....and I have no intention spending what energy I have left defending or justifying my knowledge or suggestions to folks who ASKED for information only to discount it. Again....I KNOW how bitchy this sounds and I am sorry for that.......but I just don't have the time to waste convincing people of things these days.

Best of luck to you and I really do mean that.

[stinkyattic]

I agree with Hound here; the part of the roots you see is the same part exposed to the aeration first- so naturally it should be the healthiest. No matter how powerful your airstone, if you have the Tangle of Roots from Jumanji, it's not penetrating right, and the USEABLE root area is not enough for the plant.

You are getting advice from a woman very well versed in DWC cultivation, from construction to troubleshooting, and IMVHO her word should be taken quite seriously.

[dab7wr2]

I have been doing this the same way for 6 years and Cal-Mag did not exist (to my knowledge, epsom salt was the cure) when I first started making my own DWC buckets and aeroponic cloners. Epsom salts are occasionally added at a rate of 1/4 tsp per gal once a week. I do however use the cal-mag for my soil and it seems to lock-up nutes (K) due to the excess levels of more ammonium nitrogen and calcium. I have even talked to botanicare in person about the product and they reccomend to only use it at 1/3 strengh due to lock-outs.

I added a pic of the root system. the only reason they are not white like my veg buckets are because of the increased use of the GH Micro in flower. I use 5 gallon buckets for 1 plant so I have enough room for root expansion.

That plant is about half the size of my normal DWC which are usually 6-7 footers with double the colas. I have never gotten my solution above 1000 ppm even right before a 2 week flush. I just looked through my old overgrow information about the soil vs. hydro debate with the GH nutes used and the person never went over a 950ppm solution with 1/4lb a crop.

She is pretty much a goner, as a similar veg problem occured on a similar size plant a month ago, so I am really just trying to find out why something this drastic would happen and prevent it in the future. same set up I have always done and everything around it is looking great on all the same setup.

I have used hydrozyme before when I had a bad root problem a few years back but it never seemed to do any good on healthy plants. Roots always stayed same color due to GH Micro being purple.

Weedhound - I appreciate all the help and know we all have those frustrating times so, I can look past it this time :rasta: I have been interested in trying the cal-mag in my GH solution but never felt the need for it because of no problems. What zyme product would you recommend? I might add it to half my remaining healthy buckets and see if I can tell a difference.

[veggii]

dab,I am a noobi and you needed help "problems you can't figure out" so I got the Ladies attention and got them over here for you. you can either accept the help or not, but you should be thankful as they definately have lots better things todo,and since something your doing is'nt working rite maybe you should listen, they just might know what they are talking about.
Looking @ your root mass picture,you say you keep it in a 5 gal bucket looks like it would barely fit in a 5gal bucket maybe it needs to be bigger. I know absolutely crap about hydro tho don't listen to me, but those nice Ladies know ALOT. good luck on solving your sudden death syndrome....:jointsmile:

[Weedhound]

Actually veggi it appears you are quite corrrect and the oxygen and/or root uptake would appear to be rather.....compromised to say the very least.

Dab however, lost me completely with his magnimous offer to so graciously forgive me for not showing him the obvious proper respect he feels he deserves.

I, on the other hand, am not magnimous at all and therefore don't feel the need to expend MY energy into solving his problem at all and so will quite simply wish him all the best. I will also not be back to this thread and I'm sure Dab will be just fine with that as well so it seems to be a win-win situation all around here.

I DID forget to ask the strain and so may have erred there......if they are super light feeders like straight sativas or something then the ppms may be absolutely correct for where they are in depending.........but sorry I digress.

Good luck.

[dab7wr2]

ha, I ask for help and it turns into an emotional issue. All I was getting at was when I do something the same way for six years, and I happen to have one die for no reason, then people jump to the conclusion that it has to be a cal-mag issue. How is that logical I must ask? never had the problem before with the same strain and all.

I thank you for the help and say I will try the cal-mag and a zyme product on a few to compare and you take that as an insult?

My first post when being on here over a year should go to show you I would rather intake information myself rather then bugging people for petty help. This was an issue I have never read about or seen a picture of and it baffled me to see a full grown, healthy, thriving plant beat the dust in 24 hours.

Original Afghani x Maui Haze (goolicious:thumbsup:)

[Weedhound]

Ok ......normally when I say I won't return to a thread I mean it but my hubby pointed out to me that I am a peanut head since I don't even know how to use a word like magnimous and quite frankly can't even correctly remember how to say it so I put the dunce hat on for that and will pay the price.

One....sorry that I DID turn it into an emotional issue but that's my problem and not yours so I apologize about that again.

Two...no one said your issue was CalMag except you. I mentioned Cal Mag because it's pretty standard to use and you obviously aren't using it. Around here we consider that a "not too knowledgable" way of growing.

Three....My attitude was completely bitchy AND I 100% acknowledge that. I even acknowledged it WHILE I was being bitchy as well and apologized for it at the time. YOUR attitude on the other hand ("trust me heh heh....I know what I'm doing") was also rather patronizing but for some reason you seemed to have missed the fact that your haughty manner seems to run very consistently through all your posts as well and JUST MAY be a SLIGHT BIT of the reason not everyone is standing in line to assist you.

Four...Again..no one here except you said the problem was CalMag. If you read through things carefully you would see that Stinky answered your question and most likely solved your problem already in the first post or two. It does not surprise me in the slightest that you've never seen "full grown, healthy, thriving plant beat the dust in 24 hours." You didn't even read through the posts in your thread here carefully ("you said the problem was CalMag") so I have a funny feeling you're not QUITE as knowledgable as you think you are.

Five....now being said for the THIRD time....the problem is most likely just as Stinky, myself and veggi all told you......not enough oxygen for that huge rootball, rootbound as hell, no zyme product being used to prevent root rot issues and therefore disease pops in and kills off your plant.

But you probably already knew this.

Good luck.

Ps...Your ppms could probably go much higher as well.

[dab7wr2]

well I have been doing this the same way so long and used to only use aquarium air pumps with 2 ports that were very weak with no oxygen issues. I now use commercial grade pumps with a lot more air being supplied. Thats why I first did not think about the air issue.

Roots have always been in balls like that... how do you suggest not getting in a ball? I have 6" left to the bottom of the bucket and room on all sides. there is nothing I can really do here. 1 plant for 5 gal is more then enough so I have read on here and other places.

haha ya i was laughing about the whole magnimous word because it is NOT a word. is just made up and put into the urban dictionary. were you trying to say magnanimous?

oh and I tried going up to 700ppm and ya they are now getting tourched at the tops. in 24 hr the reading went to 780ppm. I read the TDS meter and when it continually goes up that means water is being drawn from the solution and not nutes. hence why I am at a low ppm at only my 1/3 point in bloom at 30 days.

This is a 100+ day strain and needs to come on gently with nutes.

[dab7wr2]

sorry, I really do appreciate the help and take in all information that I can. I never meant to seem like the mighty all knowing cultivation technique god. I just get frustrated when something has worked for years and now problems arrise by doing the same practice. I might very well need a zyme product since a location change.

[Weedhound]

Ok......I don't know if the plant who's root pic you showed me is sick but IF IT IS you need to do as Stinky said and break up that rootball. You need to get 02 and nutrition to the middle of that root mass. Most likely at some point if you want to grow larger plants you will need to go to larger buckets. Your roots need room along with oxygen and nutrients and they aren't going to get it without the proper space to spread out. Both air and water take the path of least resistance.....and the middle of that huge rootball AINT that path.

Please don't ask me why one plant got sick and the next one didn't. If you sit next to a guy on the subway who has a cold why would you get a cold or not get a cold? Whether or not you do get a cold......who really knows why? Same principle here......some plants get sick and some don't. I can make bunch of guesses but that's really all they are so why bother since we can all make guesses on things until the cows come home and it won't truly solve the problem anyway.

[Weedhound]

I tend to make my long winded points in several posts for a good reason. I absolutely HATE writing a 20 page post and then accidently deleting it before it gets to the boards. This way I know for sure my 20 pages makes it to the thread. :D

So to continue.....there are several things I would suggest to try and hold off root rot but you CANT DO THEM ALL AT once so pick one and use it. I've used hydrogen peroxide to treat root rot successfully. The store bought 3% I use at 2 tsp/gallon and the 35% hydro kind I use 2 mls per gallon every other day. I know others who use stronger doses but that's what works for me.

OR you can use a product like Rhizotonic to help treat and a zyme product (I like Cannazym) to help PREVENT root rot but you can NOT use these products while using
H202 since it will kill off the active enzymes in your Cannazym/Rhizo products.

Most importantly you need more space for the roots and without that nothing else you do will solve the issue. As you have discovered diseases like pythium wilt and such will kill your plant in almost no time at all so prevention is DEFINITELY much better than trying to cure it.

As far as your ppms numbers go......that seems odd to me with such lows ppms numbers but for god sake don't change anything just because I said that. (You probably aren't anyway which is smart but.....) If those numbers are working for you I would HATE to kill off your plants by saying something off the wall like "hey there guy raise your ppms" only to fry your entire crop. So just forget I ever said anything about the ppms there and we'll leave that one at that. ;) :D

Magnanimous........I'm going to go write that one hundred times on the board. :D I'm not even sure I spelled it right THAT time. :wtf:

Good luck......hope that info helps

[veggii]

dab, you seem to be a nice guy, you also seem to be a exp grower. from a outside look in you also seem to bet set in your grow routine (7yrs),maybe a bit stubborn.what I got from your post,was that you have been doing this same routine for 7 yrs and have been plauged with this sudden death syndrome. So I reccomend you step out that comfy box and try a new approach,it is the only way to find out what is causing it.(repeating the same action and expecting different results) we all no what that means(insanity).
did you say your using GH soil nutes in Hydro? maybe try a new nutes solution,something thats a bit more tolerent? (forgiving). like I said I'm a noobi and I believe you'll need to try something new to fix this. Your routine has a Flaw,find it too fix or find a whole new routine? open your mind
I have bad memory so my posts are kinda jumbled @ times srry
gtg I've fried my girls they are dying :mad: !!! looks to be a funeral soon

[stinkyattic]

As your skills increase and you find yourself growing larger and more vigorous plants, with the associated big ass root systems, you will find that you have to add more O2 to keep up with their needs.

Seriously... jab an airstone into the MIDDLE of that big ol rootball and see how the droopy bitch reacts. The worst that can happen is that it's too late, and you spent $3 on an air stone.

[dab7wr2]

I am known to the botanicare line so I grabbed some Hydroguard which I have used in the past. I was talking to the store guy about root rot and he was telling me that all the bacillus subtilis products are being taken off the market due to some patent or something. SR90 is off the market, some other brand had to pull their line, and now botanicare has stopped making Hydroguard. what is this all coming to now?

I am also doing a treatment of H2O2 on a few buckets to see if I can tell any difference.

as for my ppm... I think I may be able to resolve why it seems so low. By using Lucas Formula or other manipulations of the orginal G-M-B: 0-5-10 and 0-8-16 for flower, one only achieves around 600-960ppm the whole cycle. It calls for adding the formula and replace each day with ph'ed water for 7-10 days. Well when only adding GH products with RO water and no cal-mag or other products I get around 900ppm. say I add my calmag and also parts of the gro to help balance 'N' more during early veg.

That tops me off around 1250ppm. So, I add that day 1... then each day for 7-10 days before a res change I just replace with ph'ed RO water. That number may go up to 1350ppm in 24 hours due to less nutrient uptake then water (not ready for that high a solution). I replace the lost water with RO and that number will drop to say 1150ppm in the res. The number will still go up each day because the solution is too concentrated yet people pump it full of nutes even when plants dont need it.

So, I keep adding RO to replace the lost res water and each day it will bump that res ppm down to around 500-700ppm when fnished before replacing the res on the 10th day. The plant is really not happy with this I have found so I keep it so the crop is continually feeding and my ppm will drop each day instead of rise. sure this number is suppose to stay constant to show the correct amount of nutrients each plant wants. I know different particles are absorbed by different plants and we must replace a full spectrum of nutrients on a res change.

I have never actually done res changes before, found no need. I will setup my 5 gallon and change the res only when going from veg to bloom. I simply top off each day with the around the same solution that is currently in the res. This way my res is always at a constant number. If a radical drop in res ppm happends I know the plant is needing more food and I bump up the ppm all together. Im full bloom they take in about a gallon a day so I am always replacing with ph'ed 0-8-16 solution. I usually get caught up in things and wont even look at the res for a few days and it will drop 100ppm, I will the replace that 100ppm and add about 50ppm to bump it up a little until I get a constant reading.

No CO2, no sugar boost, 1000w HPS

I have done this with great results everytime. depending on size I usually pull 4-6 oz a plant with around 6-8 under one light.

I usually veg a clone for 25-50 days depending on if I top a few times or just let 'em go. So I get big bushy plants with many top chutes to capture all that light.

The only problem I have faced is the top getting too heavy for the stem in the hydroton to support around middle of bloom. This has been a continually annoying problem as I can not move them around as much. I will use bricks on the lids to hold the stem vertical. I have done a SOG screen before but things became a hassle is a small space.

I am looking to build some tables that have a SOG screen that can be adjusted for height of the grow. This way the screen will be secured to each table and not to a wall or floor. I am still thinking up the plans but if anyone has input... let me know.

So I am wondering if this is why I still see great results. Because even with soil, most people will boost with a 1200-1700ppm solution in bloom and then every other day feed with RO water. The concept is simple to see that the initial solution will be cut in half when the same amount of RO water is added to each soil pot. The same concept will apply for hydro.

I tried to bump a few 5 gal to 900ppm, up from the original 550ppm. and I got dark green leaves, looks like some leaves maybe getting toasted at top on the edges and tip. but it is a test and I will see the results 4-5 weeks into flower. The numbers jumped to 1050ppm the next day so I followed Lucas formula and add only PH'ed RO water and the number jumps down to 800ppm. This is less then I started at and the plant even left extra nutes in the res solution and uptook more water. So, if I continue to follow these directions I will achieve around 400-500ppm or maybe less at a res change needed in 7 days.

maybe this will help clear up why I think many nutrient solutions are started high but really end up low in the end. This is just what i am seeing in my test.

[Weedhound]

Go with the canna line for root products. Rhizotonic to treat it and help your roots grow.

Cannazym will take your dead roots and keept them FROM BECOMING root rot by turning them into some sort inert material or something like that....Stinky knows the real story behind it I'm sure and can elaborate with much more intelligence than me.

Forget hydroguard and that stuff.....I use botanicare as well and and love it but trust me......go with the Canna line for root health. ;)

[Weedhound]

I dont really understand your ppm thing but that's me and not you. I think part of is that you don't use CalMag....minus some ppms numbers there.....and if you don't use LK and Sweet you can minus some ppms there as well......my actual nutes for blooming are 500ppm Cal Mag and 800 Pro Bloom so my ACTUAL BLOOM NUTES are at about 800 through the whole blooming part of the grow. The rest is CalMag and supplements so

Regardless Dab ppms DO matter. I threw in some photos here to show my point.

Pic one is a strain called Brainstorm. This plant was fed a total nute solution
of 1350ppms through late flower (that includes CalMag and supplements) and her final yield was 6.85 oz. (I don't use C02 btw just fyi)

The second photo is two plants I'm growing now. The one on the left (with the yardstick) is the same strain....Brainstorm. Same seeds, same bucket, same lighting. There is one difference between her and the first one.
She is getting a nute solution of 1550 instead of 1350. Her final yield will be almost DOUBLE FOR THAT ONE REASON ALONE.

PPMS MATTER!

PS....also tossed in a few root photos of a plant that grew very successfully (Master Kush......yield was around 6 oz) but this is what the roots looked like when all was said and done. NO ROOT ROT......thank you Cannazym.

[stinkyattic]

If the OP is not doing res changes, towards the end of bloom, ppms don't mean diddly, as plants do NOT use all components of the nute system exactly at the ratios at which they are provided.

The ratios in the bottle are an 'idealized' ratio for cannabis the genus; differences among species and of course strains will cause unused components to build up, giving a level of 'junk' ppms, that the plant just doesn't need and can't use, when the res has gone too long without a changeout to start back at the idealized ratios.

If you were to have a sample of your res solution tested at a lab for individual components, you would find a NON-ideal ratio among them, with a lot of the conductivity being added by components in excess, leaving less 'space' left over for stuff your plant actually needs at this stage in its life.

The moral of the story is, change out your res for a nice freshie as often as it is practical. Otherwise, yield and plant vigor suffer.

Epsom salts, by the way, are NOT a substitute for CalMag. Epsom salts are MgSO4- that's IT. There is no other necessary mineral content in there- the Calcium is missing- and plants do not use enough Mg to justify adding the level of ES to bring the base ppms to the same level you'd use CalMag for, as that is a broader nutrient, with minerals, not just a metal salt.

[Weedhound]

I love Stinky. :thumbsup:

[stinkyattic]

I love BEING stinky. Ask anyone. I cut brush all weekend and tore out carpeting, and worked a shift at a restaurant that apparently has a goal of sending all the grease out on the clothing of the customers and staff, rather than up the extractors...
Stinky? Yes! :D

[dab7wr2]

looking nice weedhound...when you said you had the one at 1300ppm and boosted the other to 1500ppm, was that just more N-P-K or more cal-mag also?

so ya I think the problem of the low ppm is solved... we are both using around 800ppm for our bloom nutes then you just add 500ppm of cal-mag.


Stinky: Ya i know epsom salt is just for the Mg. GH Micro has 5% calcium, which seems to be standard in most other solutions, so I figued even with the RO process taking it out all I would need to really replace is some Mg since that is low in the nute formula. But I have started to add cal-mag and hope to see some great result :thumbsup:

Ya and I know that my res solution will give me a "false reading" due to the different nutes being uptaken by each individual plant and those left behind. Ya i know all the N-P-K could be used up and I still get a decent reading. I usually have a 5 gal, wait until the plant uses up 3 gal and then replace that with fresh solution. So really I am technically replacing 3/5 of the total solution with good. the rest may be leftover crap but this has always worked for me in the past so I stuck with it.

I should really get into the habit of changing them out on a weekly rate but I an pulling water from a natural spring and ya lets just say its been pretty dry and I gots no water :mad:

thanks for all the input to the post. Gave me a better overlook of hydro information I could not find when looking over all the great information.

[stinkyattic]

It's funny, I have been realizing that a lot of the info on this site is geared towards dirt growers, since it is the medium of choice for a lot of NEW growers- and the site as a whole is really geared towards newbies... although that's obviously not to say that people don't stick around even after getting our feets wet ;)