tangent of meditation thread

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

The void is the infinity. Infinity is something that is everywhere, a part of everything; everything is a building block of infinity.
The Void, the utter blackness of outerspace is all of Infinity, from a point of view outside itself. what we see, when we look into the blackness between the stars, is Infinity itself. Though not to be fooled, it is not just a distance or emptyness, no, there is no such thing as Nothing, not inside Infinity! Do not forget we are inside the infinite with the perception we are outside, looking in!

That utter blackness of "nothingness", that infinite void, it is Infinity itself. It is us, from a "god's point of view"; That is all of it, 100% of infinity, in one look, one snapshot, just to see any part of the void is to see it all; every time you see any of it, you see all of it. That "blackness" is the all, the singular demensional containment of everything infinite, and itself. We are it, It is us.

[Dream of the iris]

Agreed. :thumbsup:

[Coelho]

Well... i think this thread is more appropriate for me posting an experience i had yesterday, when i reached a state of consciousness that was called (even if i still have some doubts) "enlightened".
I did write it about one hour after having the experience, cause most of it is forgotten very soon after the experience.

"so today after a great struggle due the fear i mentioned, i could finally to enter this states of consciousness again, and experienced this "enlightened" state again, twice. It was less than one hour ago, so the memory of it is very fresh, even if its already only a fraction of the experience. As it cant be conveyed in words, or meaningful scenes, but only as a very weird stream of perceptions, it vanishes from our usual waking memory very fast. Any doubts i had about the awesomeness of this state, now i see, was because i didnt remember properly how it is. It IS indeed mind-staggering.

Today i re-remembered what i already has figured long ago. (One thing that happens with me is, the course of this experiences seems to be the same. It seems like i always have the same (or almost the same) sequence of perceptions, memories, feelings, etc, but i only can actually grasp and analize and bring to the "normal" state of consciousness small pieces of it, so i always realize things, but when come back to the "normal" consciousness, whatever i realized remains there in the altered state of consciousness, and so i cant remember it. But when i enter the altered state again, i remember, again, what i had realized before. )

I remembered that it seems what causes this state is the gradual diminishing of the breathing, which decreases all the metabolism (including brain's), and so slows or even stops most of thoughts, and the mind can work in a far more "basic" level... or so it seems.

Anyway, after entering this state (with hash oil and something else) when i was breathing in, the time slowed down so much that it seemed the breath lasted for ages... i dont know if it is what people sees when they say "they did see their life passing in front of their eyes" when they were dying, but surely i did see, or rather remembered, lots of flashes of events and scenes of my past during that breath, and in such envolving way that seemed that i actually had lived ages during a breath... cause i could even forget i was breathing in, and sink in this flow of thoughts, then notice i was still breathing in, then become lost again, then notice that i still was breathing in (the same breath)... damn... it was awesome to notice how one instant can indeed contain one eternity into itself...

Then i started to breathe out, or rather, just to let the air escape, and it dawned on me that breathing was indeed the most appropriate thing a physical body should do... it was a rythmical, periodic contraction and relaxation, and contracting and relaxing are exactly what the muscles are made for... also, it is our link with the physical world itself. All the matter and all the energy are, in last instance, vibrations, waves, things that repeat themselves after some amount of time, and breathing is a periodic thing too, its like a wave that comes and goes... or maybe its the opposite: as breathing, that is a periodic thing, is the most essencial human feature, then all our perception of the universe, all the relationships and regularities we find on it, that we call "the laws of physics" are understood in terms of periodic things, and thats why we would percieve everything as ultimately made of waves. Because waves (periodic motion) would be the only thing our brain can think about, in the deepest level of its organization.

But still i wasnt enlightened. There was still a worry in my mind, something that still chained me to the "normal" world: i had to lie down as soon as possible, and silently, cause i didnt want other people heard me. Note the dominance of the ego until this point. "I" had to be silent because "I" didnt want anyone hear "me"... damn it! Anyway, at this point i could like see me from outside. Not in any literal sense, like having an OOBE or such, but only in terms of thinking. I could see, maybe for the first time in the life, my acts like being acts of someone else, to realize that until that moment my consciousness always had been in the viewpoint of being "inside" me, so the only view i had about anything was the perspective from "inside" me... but then i could realize that the same way i use to disregard other peoples actions, thoughts, etc, as being unimportant (because they are outside me and so can influence me very little), my own actions, thoughts, etc, everything that i considered so important were only the acts and thoughts of more one monkeylike being, of which the Earth is crowded already... I could finally realize the complete unimportance of ones acts (and thoughts, feelings,etc), and so the fact i was being silent or noisy or laughing too hard wasnt really important from the viewpoint of the universe (or at least from the viewpoint of someone else viewing me from far), and so i could abandon myself to the laugh, that was the most obvious symptom of my enlightenment. And as i could laugh (and breathe, as i noticed that laughing is the best way, or maybe just the most enjoyable way to breathe, at least for short amounts of time) as hard as i wished, being completly freed from any concerns, i could also submerge deeper in the realizations, and reach deeper understandings. (Or rather, to be able to understand the imcomprehensible things i was percieving).

I re-remembered that a very important thing is just being natural, following the flux. Realizing (again, as i always realize it) that breathing was indeed the most important thing one can do, and the most natural, essencial, non-forced thing brought me a very great happiness, and then i noticed that i had, again, learned the "reason for the existence", the "meaning of the life", and all that things... just being there, laughing my ass out (cause i always laugh madly at this realizations) was indeed the most natural thing...

(Just a comment... The problem of this state is the time i spent trying to rightly remember the experience and writing it was so long (more than 1 hour) that now im having serious problems to remember it... i can only remember the more important things that happened after what i just described, the things that i tried to strees the most for to remember them later. Or maybe its just the coming down of the weed slowing my memory... )

Anyway... i also realized (or rather understood, as i already had read about it) that even if our physical actions, thoughts, etc are unimportant, our awareness, our view as percieving beings is the only thing we actually have. Like, i could see my actions as if they were someone elses, but who was seeing my actions? Some "self", some awareness was outside the usual physical and mental actions, but it wasnt outside itself. If this awareness cease to exist, the world and everything else will also disappear. For this awareness, of course, but its all that maters for it from its own viewpoint.

But the great mystery is the awareness itself... during this state i could understand it as a kind of reflection, like a mirroring between the outside world and something "here","inside"... There are things "outside there", things outside the percieving entity that are mirrored by things that are "inside" the percieving entity, and this things are related somehow. Like, im seeing the screen of the PC, and there is "into" my mind something that is affected by it and somehow represents, mirrors it, so whenever the "real" screen changes, the "thing" into my mind changes accordingly. Thats what i would call awareness. A relationship between "outside" and "inside" things.

The degree of how well the "inside" things mirror the "outside" things determines how "real" or "unreal" a perception is. For example, the matter is actually only patterns of waves of energy, but our mind represents it as being solid, dense, and massive. But even if its very useful, and the very base of our life as usual human beings, its not a very good representation. Its what they call the illusion of the senses. That what we think are the "real" things are just the mental representations of it inside of our minds, because we really only can interact with the mental representations of the things, and not with the things itselves. There is even the question if the "outside" things actually exist, as we could regard that we only can be sure of the existence of the mental things, and not of the "real" things as we never interact with them... but i let this question to the philosophers...

Also, even if we were able (as some ones do) to transcend this filters and percieve the matter as waves of energy, instead of being solid, still it would be a mental image, even if a "truer" one. I still would be a percieving being percieving the world around it, no matter how good the perception could be.
(All this subject about we being "bubbles of perception", how the mind representes the world, etc, is discussed at lenght in Castanedas books. I had read them all several times, but only today i was able to actually understand in a "bodily" level (instead of only an intellectial level) what it really meant. Or, in its own words: "I stopped the world".)

But, as i had realized the unimportance of ones acts, i also realized the unimportance of all this realizations. Yes, its contradictory... All the most mind staggering realizations were, at all, only thoughts into more some monkeylike being... not that it diminished the importance of all the realizations had for me... but showed me how i shouldnt make them greater than they actually are."

I also realized other things, but they are more specific (like physics for example), so i wont mention them here. Also, i think this post is already long enough.

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

While slowed breathing can bring you to enlightenment, so too can uncontrollable laughter.

IN FACT, i have found laughter to literally be the most potent medicine.

If you can dominate your mind enough to trigger pure honest laughter, you can cure the blues, alleviate a stomache or headache, you can shrug off pain and exhaustion under the effects of genuine laughter.

Herein lies a potential connection to the key to happiness thread; laughter.

When you are laughing, you are still breathing, and chances are your lower abdominal muscles are contracting and relaxing very rapidly, which more or less forces your lungs to inhale and exhale at the same frequency.


You have attained enlightenment in stillness and silence, perhaps you might try laughing your way there.

A good way to shed the ego; to help eliminate the " *I* had to be silent because *I* didnt want *anyone else* to hear *me* "
To achieve enlightenment through laughter, right in front of a crowd.


ah... awareness... yes... i love that concept. Awareness, to me, is the very fabric of reality itself, not even quantifyable. awareness, consciousness, perception, all being essentially the same thing are the "programs" that run the universe.

without awareness, or some sort of mental faculty, the unvierse would stand still. even light would not move. essentially, movement, interaction, action, reaction, all are dependant on mental energies.

Light would stand still if not for the idea that it could move, rocks would fall apart at the smallest quantifyable 'component' or "building block". Nothing in the universe would make sense to us if we were to get a glimpse of a universe without awareness, or some sort of mental ability; physics would be alien to us.


Has anyone ever played with the falling sand game or burning sand?

let's say each pixel represents the smallest quantifyable building block of our universe, and the sand program itself is the universe.

WITHOUT the computer there to compute this stuff, the universe would not exist.


Computer represents mind
Burning sand represents the universe or reality
each pixel represents physical matter and energy.


Therefore... i lost it all. i forgot where i was going with this, people startted IMing me and i got caught up in conversations! lol i'll finish this some other time, maybe.

[MelT]

Good post Coelho.:) It contained elements of enlightenment, but was missing a couple of crucial realisations that are qualifiers for the full event - although as you said, you haven't posted your full experiences here so they may well have been present. But, what happened is certainly sufficient for you to move into reading Dzogchen texts and trying out the methods there, you'll be pleasantly suprised by how much of it you already understand.

These events are great, and run from 'interesting' to 'astoundingly life-changing', but they're only the first step in gaining full enlightenment, ie, a continuing state of access. In a sense, the idea of Dzogchen is to help those who have had experiences to firm them up and help them grow into something more continual and tangible, to actually live in enlightened knowledge.

I'd be very happy to point you towards the right texts and explain the practises we use if you should be interested? You don't actually have to become a Buddhist though:)

MelT

[Coelho]

Good post Coelho.:) It contained elements of enlightenment, but was missing a couple of crucial realisations that are qualifiers for the full event - although as you said, you haven't posted your full experiences here so they may well have been present.

Thats what i thought... i was sure it was not a true complete and total enlightenment, but only a fast glimpse of it... cause even if it was strong, it wasnt THAT life-changing as the enlightenments are currently described... and im almost sure the parts i didnt posted arent more "enlightened", as they refer more to specific things, like things about physics, for example.
BTW... what are the "crucial" realizations i should had that would qualify it as a full-fledged enlightenment?


But, what happened is certainly sufficient for you to move into reading Dzogchen texts and trying out the methods there, you'll be pleasantly suprised by how much of it you already understand.

These events are great, and run from 'interesting' to 'astoundingly life-changing', but they're only the first step in gaining full enlightenment, ie, a continuing state of access. In a sense, the idea of Dzogchen is to help those who have had experiences to firm them up and help them grow into something more continual and tangible, to actually live in enlightened knowledge.

I'd be very happy to point you towards the right texts and explain the practises we use if you should be interested? You don't actually have to become a Buddhist though:)

MelT

Well... i already did read a lot about buddhism, including Dzogchen, and even if i dont follow its rituals, i think its one of the best philosophies (i dont like to call it a religion) and much of my life is lived accordingly with it.
In fact, many people when meets me thinks im a monk (what im not... yet... cause sometimes i think i have some natural inclination for it... and maybe i become one someday).
Im also a bit "lost" about what to do with this realizations... its already a long ago (more than 2 years) since my first experience of this kind, and even if since then my life already changed a lot, i still think there is something essential that is missing, that even this experiences couldnt reach... i cant explain exactly, but its something like this. So if you have any good texts to recommend me, please tell me. I would like to read them, and maybe learn something that its still missing. :thumbsup:

[MelT]

>>and im almost sure the parts i didnt posted arent more "enlightened", as they refer more to specific things, like things about physics, for example.

Actually, the nature of time/space and certain aspects of physics are present in some experiences of realisation (as the 'super-knowledges'), so don't think of the two, enlightenment and physics, as being separate. I'm not saying that what your realisation contained were actual super-knowledges without hearing what they were, but you never know, and it could be worth us discussing them further to find out.

>>BTW... what are the "crucial" realizations i should had that would qualify it as a full-fledged enlightenment?

Can we go to PM or email to discuss this aspect? There are some things I'm not allowed to talk about openly. I have a MySpace account if we can't do it here? Or you could drop me a line on; [email protected]

MelT

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

how long have i been overlooking this??? lol



i want to know what you're on about that you arent allowed to talk about freely...







as far as the correlation between enlightenment and physics...


well... think of it like this...


all things are connected to all other things by a process of (for lack of a better term) "cosmic osmosis". we are all as the synapses of the universe.



Also, coleho, enlightenment doesnt have to be life changing, and depending on the individual's ideals and objectives, it might be just as second hand knowledge is to us, enlightenment is to them.


Enlightenment can only be life changing if it resonates with your life ways.


the same phrase can be life changing for a homeless bum, but be common knowledge to a broker.

and inverse, another phrase might influence the broker to sell all his possessions, while it might be an insult to the bum!


Enlightenment is not a universal thing really, it is different for each individual, however that is not to say that all thought is not akin to enlightenment. it is. in fact, every passing moment is another infinite expression of enlightenment, but it will remain lost on the mindsets that are not in sync with the expression of enlightenment.


Truly, all that exists is an infinite complex representation of the whole.

Symbolically, you can see the universe in a grain of sand. Literally too if you understand the symbols.


i think that is what my crappy burning sand analogy was leading up to.

[hazetwostep]

i see enlightenment not as something to obtain but a way of thought or world view. it is not something that you grasp one day and then have. you only have as much of it as you let if be your mindset.. a mindset of complete consciousness and acceptance of the present moment, the Now, just as it comes. enlightenment is an entity free of "ego".

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

Good call!