Heavy fighting in South Ossetia

[apocolips31]

BBC NEWS | Europe | Heavy fighting in South Ossetia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7546639.stm)


You guys think this will escalate? Russia has sent more troops to the region and the other break away province of Abkhazia has also sent about 1000 more troops to South Ossetia.

[Fugitive]

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Georgian jets join battle:
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b26_1218094003
LiveLeak.com - Raw Video : Georgia And S. Ossetia Exchange RPG And Gunfire, 6 Wounded. (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b26_1218094003)

Georgia says Russian aircraft bombed its air bases - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080808/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia)

Photographs (http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Georgia-Unrest-Tskhinvali-South-Ossetia/ss/events/wl/050608georgiarussia/s:/ap/20080808/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_south_ossetia/im:/080808/481/53062e8eab7c41c0a3a24ddddf20484e/;_ylt=AneGCPTYLZPwRzA8cnx8rSlbbBAF#photoViewer=/080808/ids_photos_india_wl/ra716607218.jpg)

The Associated Press: Georgia says it shot down 2 Russian aircraft (http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hV2N6fVKS5slf10A13Dj_uIdaZ4QD92E3O3O7)

[apocolips31]

BBC NEWS | Europe | South Ossetia clashes intensify (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7550804.stm)


Georgia is about to announce a state of emergency and they have recalled about half of their 2,000 troops from Iraq.

[Dutch Pimp]

The shit's gonna hit the fan, there. :cool:

[RobPA]

Its ashame we are so tied up with the bullshit over in Iraq, Georgia has been a strong ally of ours and deserves our help, but US Soldiers fighting Russians will never happen. Putin is to stubborn to retreat.... Hopefully Diplomacy prevails....

[texas grass]

Russian Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Sobyanin said on Saturday that more than 30,000 refugees have fled South Ossetia since Thursday, when Georgian army began a large-scale offensive against separatists in order to regain control of the province, which declared independence after the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991.

it sounds like georgia should not have bombed the capital of south ossetia. they killed russian peacekeepers and citizens. south ossetia is about 80-90% russian citizens. and america needs to sit down and keep its mouth shut about this. we have invaded 2 countries and killed thousands of civillians, destroyed infastructure to soverign countries. it sounds like russia is acting like america in protecting its interests on its boarders

[apocolips31]

The only reason they are Russian citizens is because Russia wants to have influence over the break away regions and this gives them a means to intervene militarily. The only reason the separatists accepted the citizenship is because, they would rather be with Russia then Georgia.

[apocolips31]

BBC NEWS | Europe | Georgia 'pulls out of S Ossetia' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552012.stm)


Looks like Georgia is backing down. I wonder if Russia will do the same?

[Dutch Pimp]

BBC NEWS | Europe | Georgia 'pulls out of S Ossetia' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7552012.stm)


Looks like Georgia is backing down. I wonder if Russia will do the same?

Georgia doesn't have an Air Force. What were they thinking? The Russian Air Force can lay waste, to that place.....:Tomcat:

[apocolips31]

BBC NEWS | Europe | Russian troops in Georgia advance (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm)


Looks like Russia is on the offensive......

[RobPA]

Georgia doesn't have an Air Force. What were they thinking? The Russian Air Force can lay waste, to that place.....:Tomcat:


Georgia actually has a decent sized airforce along with 2 american f-16's. They also have 20+ Tam Su-25KM Skorpion's. They also have the russian Mil Mi-14 Haze helicopters which are used to destroy submarines. They also make good use of there Elbit Hermes 450's which are unmanned recon planes (UAV). Also have a good ammount of mi-24 Attack helicopters. All of which the russians have 5x the ammount of. Georgia also claims to have shot down 10 russian aircraft (totally plausible). Dutchpimp you are right the bottomline is Russias airforce is much larger and stronger, but Georgia does have a formidable airforce, also the majority trained by US airmen. Also note during the Georgia- Abkhazian civil war Abkhazians Airforce was annihilated by Georgia's until the soviets started flying sorties for them for which the soviet's were instructed to coverup the russian insignia on the planes tails and elsewhere.

Just wanted to note 1 more thing, if you watch the news as you watch the Russian planes attacking ground positions notice the incredible ammount of flares they are firing out the back of there aircraft. Georgia has an estimated 60 sites from which they can launch S-75 Dvina anti-aircraft missles, these are deadly to the russian SU-27's or any other russian plane. I said it before ill say it again, im pissed we are so spread thin because of Iraq, These people are our allies and need our help, I hope US Diplomacy prevails and we help these people out somehow even if its not militarily.

[bobthenuker]

These people are our allies and need our help, I hope US Diplomacy prevails and we help these people out somehow even if its not militarily.

The last thing Georgia needs is US diplomacy. If there's anyone to blame here its that dipshit Saakashvili. Everything that's happened so far is his fault completely. I'm not biased though becasue I'm a Georgian, born in Tbilisi. I have family back in Tbilisi and around the country side, and the suffering Saakashvili has caused to our people is criminal. He sent in soldiers to slaughter the South Ossetian's, to gain back a territory that wishes to be free from Georgia. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Georgia needs closer ties with Russia and not the US. Russia is Georgia's sister and neighbor, and we've had this relationship for a long time, yet idiot politicians, especially on Georgia's behalf, prevent any peace from happening. Yes, Russia has taken it too far though, and it's really hurting my family, but it's all the fault of Saakashvili. People need to stop seeing the Russians as the "bad guys", just because Georgia is a close ally of the US. I hope someday my country gets a president who will make peace with Russia.

[RobPA]

The last thing Georgia needs is US diplomacy. If there's anyone to blame here its that dipshit Saakashvili. Everything that's happened so far is his fault completely. I'm not biased though becasue I'm a Georgian, born in Tbilisi. I have family back in Tbilisi and around the country side, and the suffering Saakashvili has caused to our people is criminal. He sent in soldiers to slaughter the South Ossetian's, to gain back a territory that wishes to be free from Georgia. I've said it before and I'll say it again, Georgia needs closer ties with Russia and not the US. Russia is Georgia's sister and neighbor, and we've had this relationship for a long time, yet idiot politicians, especially on Georgia's behalf, prevent any peace from happening. Yes, Russia has taken it too far though, and it's really hurting my family, but it's all the fault of Saakashvili. People need to stop seeing the Russians as the "bad guys", just because Georgia is a close ally of the US. I hope someday my country gets a president who will make peace with Russia.


Sorry but the corrupt Government of Putin and all his EX-KGB cabinet are the bad guys, in my eyes. And as a true Georgian, with a population of 4.5mil over 60% of the population supposedly Supports that "dipshit" Saakashvili, it seems you dont share the views of the rest of your country? And the countless Georgians around the world calling for the US's help. Your country split from Russia for a reason. If the majority of your country wants closer relations to russia, why the big uproar when they are invading your country? Im sorry but your argument dosent have enough facts for me to change my mind about russia and the situation as a whole. Just my opinion though!

[bobthenuker]

Sorry but the corrupt Government of Putin and all his EX-KGB cabinet are the bad guys, in my eyes. And as a true Georgian, with a population of 4.5mil over 60% of the population supposedly Supports that "dipshit" Saakashvili, it seems you dont share the views of the rest of your country? And the countless Georgians around the world calling for the US's help. Your country split from Russia for a reason. If the majority of your country wants closer relations to russia, why the big uproar when they are invading your country? Im sorry but your argument dosent have enough facts for me to change my mind about russia and the situation as a whole. Just my opinion though!

Yea man I dig what you're saying, Russia's government is no angel either. I think though that Saakashvili has successfully fucked my country by invading South Ossetia. He promised better relationship with Russia, and talked with Putin about removing the embargo, which all would have helped the economy greatly. Things were looking good, however Saakashvili started getting cocky with his support from the west, and started pushing to have control in South Ossetia. I curse the Russian government for taking things far passed South Ossetia like they're doing now. What's done is done, and cannot be undone. Georgia's in chaos, thousands of people are dead. The fact is NOW Georgia does need help, which is why most Georgian's are calling for the US to help, since all hell has broken loose. Georgia does have it's own identity, a fact all Georgians are proud of, but it can't turn it's back on Russia, much of the life there depends on good relations with Russia.

[RobPA]

Yea man I dig what you're saying, Russia's government is no angel either. I think though that Saakashvili has successfully fucked my country by invading South Ossetia. He promised better relationship with Russia, and talked with Putin about removing the embargo, which all would have helped the economy greatly. Things were looking good, however Saakashvili started getting cocky with his support from the west, and started pushing to have control in South Ossetia. I curse the Russian government for taking things far passed South Ossetia like they're doing now. What's done is done, and cannot be undone. Georgia's in chaos, thousands of people are dead. The fact is NOW Georgia does need help, which is why most Georgian's are calling for the US to help, since all hell has broken loose. Georgia does have it's own identity, a fact all Georgians are proud of, but it can't turn it's back on Russia, much of the life there depends on good relations with Russia.



I have always been intrigued by "Georgia" even back as far as its Midevil History, which is why i have been following this story so closely. I have always seen Georgians as a people with a pair of brass balls because of how they always stood up for themselves against the russians. I hope that if Putin continues the invasion and comes at the country on both fronts SOMEONE will help the Georgians militarily. Heart is with you, your family and your country man..

[psychocat]

Isn't the situation a lot like when the southern states of America wanted to split with the north ?
If that's the case would it mean that Georgia is taking it's lead from them dang yankees ? :wtf:

Or like when them pesky Scots didn't want to be ruled by England , we got out the weapons and beat the crap out of them till they saw sense. :thumbsup:

To all the Jocks out there , please don't take offense , I am only joking.


Seriously though

I know Ossetia wants to be free of Georgia.
Georgia fired first .
Russia would appear to be preventing Georgia from depriving the Ossetians of want they want.

The west gets involved in to many battles that do not concern them. :mad:

[RobPA]

Isn't the situation a lot like when the southern states of America wanted to split with the north ?
If that's the case would it mean that Georgia is taking it's lead from them dang yankees ? :wtf:

Or like when them pesky Scots didn't want to be ruled by England , we got out the weapons and beat the crap out of them till they saw sense. :thumbsup:

To all the Jocks out there , please don't take offense , I am only joking.


Seriously though

I know Ossetia wants to be free of Georgia.
Georgia fired first .
Russia would appear to be preventing Georgia from depriving the Ossetians of want they want.

The west gets involved in to many battles that do not concern them. :mad:



You know about the major pipeline that runs through Georgia right? A location that we get millions of barrels of oil from. If the pipelines hit, Oil will instantly skyrocket, that is guaranteed. And americans will continue to bitch about prices. The bottomline is we have a vested interest in that country, I cannot say the same for Iraq, they sell there oil to china anyway. For once this does concern us and people who wish to live in a free democracy unlike the corrupt Russians. Maybe it was wrong for Georgia to attack first, but its like being in the US as you said, and the south splitting, They need to become sovereign russian soil (obviously thats whats gonna happen if most of them are russian citizens anyway) Georgia was just trying to save there "union" just as we once were, although the situation is not NEARLY the same by principal.

[bobthenuker]

You know about the major pipeline that runs through Georgia right? A location that we get millions of barrels of oil from. If the pipelines hit, Oil will instantly skyrocket, that is guaranteed. And americans will continue to bitch about prices. The bottomline is we have a vested interest in that country, I cannot say the same for Iraq, they sell there oil to china anyway. For once this does concern us and people who wish to live in a free democracy unlike the corrupt Russians. Maybe it was wrong for Georgia to attack first, but its like being in the US as you said, and the south splitting, They need to become sovereign russian soil (obviously thats whats gonna happen if most of them are russian citizens anyway) Georgia was just trying to save there "union" just as we once were, although the situation is not NEARLY the same by principal.

I think it's already been hit a couple of times but still running, but the point remains the same. Now that Russia has been given an excuse to attack, I fear that they will not stop. And the close ties between Georgia and the west amount to squat, because personally I don't think that America or the West will intervene militarily, seeing as how the Russians don't aim to stop. I hope I get proven wrong, but now that Russia is the one of the world's largest oil producer, if not the most (don't quote me on that, not too sure myself), they're quickly gaining power fast. And thanks man for the kind words, somehow though, I think this could have all been avoided :wtf:... You gotta understand though, from the point of view of a common Georgian living in Georgia, a good relationship between Georgia and Russia is much more important than that of Georgia and the west. Russia has too much influence in that area to be ignored, and it was a very delicate relationship hanging on by a thread after the cold war. Even though Georgia is rich in culture, most Georgians are simple people, that raise crops and drink excessively and whatnot. Most of them would not care if their country was in NATO or whatever. It's a beautiful peaceful land...but not anymore. It'll be interesting to see what'll it be like after all this will blow over.

[RobPA]

I think it's already been hit a couple of times but still running, but the point remains the same. Now that Russia has been given an excuse to attack, I fear that they will not stop. And the close ties between Georgia and the west amount to squat, because personally I don't think that America or the West will intervene militarily, seeing as how the Russians don't aim to stop. I hope I get proven wrong, but now that Russia is the one of the world's largest oil producer, if not the most (don't quote me on that, not too sure myself), they're quickly gaining power fast. And thanks man for the kind words, somehow though, I think this could have all been avoided :wtf:... You gotta understand though, from the point of view of a common Georgian living in Georgia, a good relationship between Georgia and Russia is much more important than that of Georgia and the west. Russia has too much influence in that area to be ignored, and it was a very delicate relationship hanging on by a thread after the cold war. Even though Georgia is rich in culture, most Georgians are simple people, that raise crops and drink excessively and whatnot. Most of them would not care if their country was in NATO or whatever. It's a beautiful peaceful land...but not anymore. It'll be interesting to see what'll it be like after all this will blow over.



If we decide to help the georgians militarily, I would probably be the first to enlist(not joking in the least). Did you see the big rally on Fox news today? Thousands of Georgians showed up to rally for freedom, stop of the fighting etc etc, they even had american flags flying everywhere and a english translator.. But you are right, stepping back for a moment and looking at the situation, If georgia wasent ready for the Russians counterattack, they should have never messed with the breakaway Ossetia in the first place. Where I live in PHilly there is an EXTREMELY large russian/georgian population. I am going to take some pics later but you should see some of the things the Georgians are putting on there yards, decorating them with flags, there was a rally earlier today and the cops had to come stop the violence because a group of russians attacked GEorgian protestors. This is a really tough situation for me because I am a libertarian and believe strongly in a non-interventionalist foreign policy, but I believe more that we need to help the people who help us, they helped us in Iraq, even though it was only 2000 Soldiers its the principal that they stood by us so I fully believe that if Russia continues and Invades Georgia and tries to out its democracy that the PEOPLE of Georgia voted for, we should help them Militarily. However with the news posted above this post about us sending more to the persian gulf, its looking more and more of an unrealistic situation in terms of us helping Georgia militarily. Once again I wish your family and your people the best bob. And your right 1 of the pipelines has been hit but it was not the BP pipeline(the one where we get a lot of our oil from, I even have a BP credit card, lol).

[Fugitive]

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Always good to get both sides of the story remember (something the media is incapable of)

[RobPA]

UfA5XfxQOPw

Always good to get both sides of the story remember (something the media is incapable of)


Sorry but personally I wouldent take anything an EX-kgb, surrounded in political scandal, person who stomps over the human rights of his own citizens words as anywhere near fact. Putin is about as corrupt as they come. I am always willing to see both sides of the story and until I see more facts to follow putins words i'll continue to believe that Russia is acting as the aggressor now. He has wanted Georgia for years. Another thing I noticed is that Putin still gets more press then the current Russian President and they also make conflicting statements.

[Fugitive]

BBC NEWS | Europe | Russia 'ends Georgia operation' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7555858.stm)

[RobPA]

BBC NEWS | Europe | Russia 'ends Georgia operation' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7555858.stm)


Little off Topic but Amon arath is the shit man! Do you like InFlames? One of my favorite Norse bands. Anyway back on topic, Check out Fox news or CNN, they have live reporters there and bombing is still going on and has been all day. They are also moving more troops into those other 2 provinces. I hope this dosent escalate anymore then it has.

[texas grass]

The BBC is deliberately distorting the News from the Georgia Region

Chimes of Freedom
August 10, 2008

As usual, the BBC is twisting and distorting the news coming out of the Georgia region. We keep being told that around 1500 have been killed in Georgia, the inference being that this has resulted from Russian bombing.

Not so, the casualties are in Ossetia.

While the Ossetians claimed over 1000 dead the BBC neither reported this or any newsreel coming out of Ossetia showing the destruction caused by the Georgian shelling of the breakaway republic.

All we are getting is one-sided reports of the destruction being caused by the Russians.

Unlike News 24 which is its international news carrier, the BBC website does make some mention of Ossetian casualties:

"We left our town because the situation there is worse than anything Iâ??ve seen in 18 years of conflict. Houses are being hit by rockets and heavy artillery, aircraft are bombing the roads."

Since yesterday, Russia Today was reporting the complete destruction of Ossetiaâ??s capital by Georgian shelling. Again, the destruction of the Ossetian capital was never reported by the BBC.

Last Friday, RIA Novosti reported that Ossetia was claiming over 1000 dead:

"Over 1,000 civilians have been killed as the result of an attack by Georgia on the capital of its breakaway republic of South Ossetia, the North Ossetian nationalities minister said Friday.

According to the South Ossetian information and press committee, the number of fatalities is estimated, according to preliminary information, at over 1,000," Teimuraz Kasayev said."

South Ossetia says over 1,000 dead after Georgian attack (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9773)

Sometime after mid-day today I tried unsuccessfully to access the Russia Today website for further information. Whether this is because of heavy traffic or because the website is being blocked by someone it is difficult to tell. I experienced the very same problem trying to access the RIA Novosti website.

Meanwhile, a BBC News 24 reporter, Lyse Doucet, tried to suggest that Russia had attacked Abkhazia by sending troops into that breakaway republic! That was soon put into doubt by another BBC reporter from Moscow who speculated that the sending of Russian troops into Abkhazia was not an attack but intended to protect its citizens and holiday-makers there.

On Saturday, Chinaâ??s Xinhua news service reported, "Abkhazia launches operation to force Georgian troops out" and "Georgia defeats Abkhaziaâ??s attacks". And previous news from Russia Today had announced Abkhaziaâ??s attack on Georgia. So was the BBCâ??s Doucet confused or deliberately confusing the facts?

What is clear, however, is that the BBC is giving carte blanche to the Georgian point-of-view to be aired on its services while nothing whatsoever is being heard from the Ossetian side. The BBCâ??s repetitive playing of a statement by George Bush, given several days ago, without balancing these against statements from the Russian side indicates where the BBC is coming from.

The contrast between the brazenly pro-US, pro-Georgian views being put out on BBC News 24 and the BBC website is to be noted whilst a more balanced assessment has been published by Richard Seymour of Leninâ??s Tomb. He, like me, believes that the BBC is deliberately confusing the issue. Iâ??m sure weâ??ll get much more of that from the BBC:

"Incidentally, just so that this point isnâ??t lost in the deliberately confusing reportage. Yes, Russian jets are attacking Georgian targets and killing civilians. Yes, the reported civilian casualties "on both sides" is reported to be over 2,000. What is quite often not stated or just gently skated over in the reporting, so laden with images of Georgian dead and wounded, is that the estimate of 2,000 civilian deaths comes from the Russian government and it applies overwhelmingly to the Georgian attacks on South Ossetia on Friday.

In fact, this is the basis for Vladimir Putinâ??s claims of a "genocide" against South Osettians by the Georgians (is he deliberately referencing the ICTY judgment about Srebrenica here?). The Georgian side, by contrast, claims 129 deaths of both soldiers and civilians. So, if Russian figures are good enough to reference, why is the source of the figures and their context obscured? Why is being made to look as if Russian forces are behind most of those alleged deaths? Doesnâ??t this just amount to a whitewash of the actions of the Georgian army in South Ossetia? And why not mention 30,000 refugees too?"














Russian Cameraman: CNN Aired Misleading Footage


Tuesday, August 12, 2008

CNN is airing misleading footage of the war between Georgia and Russia, skewing public opinion in favor of the Georgians, according to a Russia Today cameraman interviewed this morning.

The Russia Today satellite TV company aired the interview on its English language news channel but the story is yet to appear on the Internet or in any other news outlet.



UPDATE: Russia Today has now posted the following on their website and uploaded a video.


The Russian cameraman charged that CNN had used his footage of Georgian forces attacking Russian civilians in Tskhinvali, the provincial capital of South Ossetia, but then claimed it showed Russians attacking Georgians in the Georgian town of Gori.

The Georgian assault on Tskhinvali, described as an act of genocide and a war crime by Russian officials and other eyewitnesses, led to the slaughter of at least 2,000 civilians. The fact that Georgia, backed by the U.S. and Israel, were responsible for the provocation that led to the Russian response, has been buried by the majority of western corporate media.

Western media bias to skew popular opinion in favor of the U.S. and NATO client state Georgia was evident from the very start of the conflict.





As we reported yesterday, a prime example of media bias in shielding Georgia from responsibility for the carnage is the fact that news outlets like the BBC continue to report that thousands of civilians were killed in Georgia, with the obvious inference being that these are victims of the Russian onslaught. But these victims were not killed in Georgia, they were killed in Ossetia - by Georgian forces.

As the Chimes of Freedom Blog elaborates, â??While the Ossetians claimed over 1000 dead the BBC neither reported this or any newsreel coming out of Ossetia showing the destruction caused by the Georgian shelling of the breakaway republic. All we are getting is one-sided reports of the destruction being caused by the Russians.â?�

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev this morning ordered an immediate halt to Russiaâ??s military operations against Georgia.

â??The purpose of the operation has been achievedâ?¦. The security of our peacekeeping forces and the civilian population has been restored,â?� Interfax quoted him as saying.

CNN accused of using misleading war footage

American broadcaster CNN has been accused of using misleading footage in their coverage of the conflict in South Ossetia. A Russian cameraman says footage of wrecked tanks and ruined buildings, which was purported to be the town of Gori, was in fact the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali.

Gori was said to be about to fall under the control of the Russian army but the cameraman says the video was actually shot in Tskhinvali, which had been flattened by Georgian shelling.

Aleksandr Zhukov, from the Russiya Al-Yaum channel, said: â??When we arrived and news came that Gori was being shelled, I saw my footage. I said: thatâ??s not Gori! Thatâ??s Tskhinvali. Having crawled through the length and breadth of Tskhinvali, I donâ??t need much to tell from which point this or that footage was recorded. I can swear in front of any tribunal. I can point at this location on the map of the town, because I and the cameraman of the Rossiya channel videotaped that.â?�

[daihashi]

The BBC is deliberately distorting the News from the Georgia Region



I'm not sure how credible your sources are. One article came from inforwars, a website that hosts what appears to be a radio talk show host and documentary film maker who seems to be as liberal as Michael Moore. After reviewing his website some, a number of his fans/followers, as well as a number of articles written really border on conspiracy theory.

The second article you posted I found globalresearch.ca (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9783), a website that really seems to be strongly anti Bush, there's an entire section for impeaching Bush. Wow..

Two websites that show very strong bias really leaves much to be desired when trying to argue in the favor of Ossetia. Honestly I have mixed feelings on this situation myself. Georgia should have just stayed within their own borders but i can understand wanting to reunite your country (as we did in the United states). Therefore it's difficult for me to decide one way or another but i do know one thing.. these articles claim that people are reporting in favor of the United States when I see no such thing. As a matter of fact we are not truely even involved in this. We have our hands full with other matters. Even when we're not really involved people look to point the finger at us.

and FYI, the 1500 death toll number came from the Russian Foreign Ministry. Does anyone honestly think that Russia wouldn't skew the numbers in their favor in order to try to gain sympathy?

The only thing I can definitely agree too is that the Media is being overly sympathetic to Georgia. But when a super power attacks a lowly country like Georgia instead of settling this Diplomatically like everyone wants the US to do.. it's going to catch a lot of momentum as everyone gasps at what seems to be the bully picking on a little kid.

This battle/invasion/war is purely politically motivated and the reporting is definitely full of Bias (on both sides). It's unfortunate that this is one of the first articles posted about the media that I felt would be good to bring to light but the credibility of both articles was shot down the tubes for me once I saw their sources and their own biases within the articles.

[apocolips31]

Texas grass I don't know what that article is talking about if you read the BBC links I have provided you will see they actually say most of the civilian casualties were from Georgia launching a surprise attack. So that article is pretty much shit....

[Fugitive]

Little off Topic but Amon arath is the shit man! Do you like InFlames? One of my favorite Norse bands. Anyway back on topic, Check out Fox news or CNN, they have live reporters there and bombing is still going on and has been all day. They are also moving more troops into those other 2 provinces. I hope this dosent escalate anymore then it has.

Yeah, I like both bands :thumbsup: good to see people here like it.

This video is quite extraordinary don't think it worked according to plan for fox news..
H8XI2Chc6uQ

Here are some pictures from the war - Warning there are some very graphic images so do not watch it stoned as it's a buzzkill, also not for the faint of heart btw.

Ã?ëüìÃ*Ã*Ã*õ «Ã?ñêóññòâî âîéÃ*û» :: Ã�ðîñìîòð òåìû - Ã?îéÃ*Ã* â Ã?æÃ*îé Ã?ñåòèè: 89 ôîòîãðÃ*ôèé Ã?ðêÃ*äèÿ Ã�Ã*á÷åÃ*êî (http://www.navoine.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?p=551#551)

[RobPA]

Wow... Now Russia is threatening Poland with military action because of the Missle deal (which had a clause in the contract that stated if they were attacked militarily the US would send military aid and that we will also be putting in a permanent airbase in poland). Really hope this situation dosent escalate more and the peace deal stands. Russia is starting to act like the sleeping Giant that it used to be and this seems to be stirring up a lot of Nationalism within the country.

[texas grass]

Wow... Now Russia is threatening Poland with military action because of the Missle deal (which had a clause in the contract that stated if they were attacked militarily the US would send military aid and that we will also be putting in a permanent airbase in poland). Really hope this situation dosent escalate more and the peace deal stands. Russia is starting to act like the sleeping Giant that it used to be and this seems to be stirring up a lot of Nationalism within the country.


i guess if us is allowed to have missles near russia then russia should be allowed to station missles in cuba and south america. what was the whole cuban missle crisis about. russian equipment on our borders and they took it away. now we do it to them.

if the missles are installed in eu it will be against the national security of russia and give them legal reason to attack(since were not legally allowed to have missles stationed within 3500 miles of their border). but if they do get installed we will have russian nuke bombers on our borders through cuba. which is already in place, and most likely in venesuala.



if we are so scared of getting nuked by 1 missle on the other side of the world i guess the trillions of dollars and over 50 yrs of defense systems put up all over the world. were a waste of money to american taxpayers. because your system doesnt work

[apocolips31]

Yea..... Setting up nuclear missiles in Cuba is way different then just setting up 10 interceptor rockets, that is used for defense. 10 rockets wouldn't even put a dent in what Russia could throw at someone. Why are they so concerned about it? Do they plan to attack Poland or something? It would be different if we were setting up an offensive weapon but, something just to protect that whole region including Russia from an attack from anybody. It shouldn't be wrong to build defenses.

[RobPA]

i guess if us is allowed to have missles near russia then russia should be allowed to station missles in cuba and south america. what was the whole cuban missle crisis about. russian equipment on our borders and they took it away. now we do it to them.

if the missles are installed in eu it will be against the national security of russia and give them legal reason to attack(since were not legally allowed to have missles stationed within 3500 miles of their border). but if they do get installed we will have russian nuke bombers on our borders through cuba. which is already in place, and most likely in venesuala.



if we are so scared of getting nuked by 1 missle on the other side of the world i guess the trillions of dollars and over 50 yrs of defense systems put up all over the world. were a waste of money to american taxpayers. because your system doesnt work

I find a couple of your statements to be a little ridiculous. Bombers and nukes comming from Cuba?? They would be shotdown by our airforce and navy before they even got off the ground. Those billions a year that go into spy satellite and etc technology at least has some positives. The Missles will get installed and if Poland wants to allow it it is there Sovereign right to have them and make that decision. If its in Russias rights to attack one of our bases or militarily installations (we are also building a large military base in Poland, which is part of the deal) as you said, Then I say good luck to all of us, because WW3 has just begun if the situation occurs. Russia does have 1.1million soldiers but it dosent have near the support or financial ability that we would have if a war such as that broke out. Theres nothing like Americans if you kill our people or piss us off. This would be a totally diferant situation then Iraq, and I think would have much more support if Russia were to attack any of our bases.

[psychocat]

America and the west should be keeping it's nose out of business that does not concern it.
How can Britain and America invade two countries under a lie and then pretend to have the moral highground ?
Russia is defending Ossetia from an agressor in the shape of Georgia , how is it defending democracy to force tOssetia to re-unite with a country they don't want to ?
America should concentrate on defending it's own borders instead of trying to tell everyone else what they can or cannot do.
Placing weapons on Russias doorstep is no different than Russia placing them in Cuba.

[texas grass]

I find a couple of your statements to be a little ridiculous. Bombers and nukes comming from Cuba?? They would be shotdown by our airforce and navy before they even got off the ground. Those billions a year that go into spy satellite and etc technology at least has some positives. The Missles will get installed and if Poland wants to allow it it is there Sovereign right to have them and make that decision. If its in Russias rights to attack one of our bases or militarily installations (we are also building a large military base in Poland, which is part of the deal) as you said, Then I say good luck to all of us, because WW3 has just begun if the situation occurs. Russia does have 1.1million soldiers but it dosent have near the support or financial ability that we would have if a war such as that broke out. Theres nothing like Americans if you kill our people or piss us off. This would be a totally diferant situation then Iraq, and I think would have much more support if Russia were to attack any of our bases.




my whole point was we are breaking a international treaty with russia by putting military instilations within 3500 miles of their border which is illegal. but its also illegal for them to do the same. if we do it first it gives them "legal right" to defend their national security.
im not for nuke bombers on our doorstep,

[apocolips31]

Last time I checked Poland was a sovereign nation with the right to have defenses.

[texas grass]

Last time I checked Poland was a sovereign nation with the right to have defenses.



then why are we talking about bombing iran, and why did we bomb iraq, nigaragwa, panama, ect. if they didnt attack us and they are sovereign nations. isnt that illegal on what we did.


and its ok to break international treatys

and georgia killed civillians in a civillian capital with american planes and tanks against a population that has no defenses. if anything we should go attack georgia for attacking defensless civillians.

[apocolips31]

While I regret the loss on both sides, Georgia has a right to take back what is theirs. Putting up defensive missiles in no where near the same as USA invading Iraq. Just wondering why you brought that up? Sense you did I think that it was wrong of us to invade Iraq but, sense we are already their and have created trouble we should clean up our mess. Back to the issue with Poland. Poland has a right to protect it's self and put up as many defensive weapons as they want. Or do you think that Poland should just roll over as Russia says and leave them self's at a disadvantage? I would see their reason for concern if we were setting up nukes their or maybe a 1000 misses but, just 10? What would that do to Russia with all their capabilities? The missile defense was obviously put there to stop an enemy with a lot less capabilities then a country as strong militarily as Russia.

[psychocat]

While I regret the loss on both sides, Georgia has a right to take back what is theirs.

Then by that logic the American Indians should take back America and Mexico should reclaim Texas.


Putting up defensive missiles in no where near the same as USA invading Iraq. Just wondering why you brought that up?

That is the single most obvious oxymororn.
There is no such thing as a defensive missile they are all designed to be as offensive as possible placing them in Poland breaks so many agreements and is antagonistic at the very least and downright illegal at worst.
The reason for bringing up Iraq is to show how inept the leaders of the western world are and how they lied to achieve thier own ends.


Sense you did I think that it was wrong of us to invade Iraq but, sense we are already their and have created trouble we should clean up our mess. Back to the issue with Poland. Poland has a right to protect it's self and put up as many defensive weapons as they want. Or do you think that Poland should just roll over as Russia says and leave them self's at a disadvantage?

That isn't what is being proposed, if you said they should be able to purchase the weapons I would say fine but that is not the case.
America wants a military base in Poland and I can fully understand that Russia objects in much the same way America had objections to Cuba back in the early sixties.


I would see their reason for concern if we were setting up nukes their or maybe a 1000 misses but, just 10? What would that do to Russia with all their capabilities? The missile defense was obviously put there to stop an enemy with a lot less capabilities then a country as strong militarily as Russia.

The American goverment is placing military forces where no Americans have a right to be , the reason for Iraq is to place American military in the middle east and this is simply an excuse to spread into the east of Europe.

You really do need to understand that I am never fooled by the US rhetoric and bullshit.

[daihashi]

Then by that logic the American Indians should take back America and Mexico should reclaim Texas.

Well the American Indians never had a sovereign nation. I do not claim that it is right, but it's a bit different than the situation we see today. Also the fact that we took the land from the Indians from 1492 on forward. Ossetia declared it's independance back in the 1990s. So it is very recent.

South Ossetia's independance has not been recognized by any of the members of the United Nations. Therefore if the rest of the world doesn't recognize Ossetia then why shouldn't Georgia have the right to try to reunite their nation?


That is the single most obvious oxymororn.
There is no such thing as a defensive missile they are all designed to be as offensive as possible placing them in Poland breaks so many agreements and is antagonistic at the very least and downright illegal at worst.


uhhh what era have you been living in? Defense missiles have been around forever. They specifically shoot down other missiles.

Missile defense is an air defense system, weapon, or technology involved in the detection, tracking, interception and destruction of attacking missiles. Originally conceived as a defence against nuclear-armed ICBMs, its application has broadened to include shorter-ranged non-nuclear tactical and theater missiles.

The interception technology used has varied over time. In the 1960s, missile defense against ICBMs emphasized nuclear warheads. In recent decades non-nuclear kinetic warheads have been used. Directed-energy weapons such as lasers have been investigated and deployed on a limited basis.

The US, Russia, France, Israel and India have all developed such air defence systems.[1] In the United States, missile defense was originally the responsibility of the Army, but in recent years the Navy and Air Force have developed their own systems.
That isn't what is being proposed, if you said they should be able to purchase the weapons I would say fine but that is not the case.
America wants a military base in Poland and I can fully understand that Russia objects in much the same way America had objections to Cuba back in the early sixties.


The reason for bringing up Iraq is to show how inept the leaders of the western world are and how they lied to achieve thier own ends.

It's still irrelevant to the topic at hand. You're giving Russia a free pass. I will admit that Ossetia instigated the situation but Russia is going above and beyond what was needed. Also there was no formal declaration of war or even any warning. It was a surprise that happened while everyone was attending the olympics.

Iraq had been being warned and sanctions thrown on them since the first Iraq War in the 90's. I strongly believe we should not have been in Iraq but to compare this to our relationship with Iraq is very far fetched. Iraq knew we were coming for quite some time.


The American goverment is placing military forces where no Americans have a right to be , the reason for Iraq is to place American military in the middle east and this is simply an excuse to spread into the east of Europe.

You really do need to understand that I am never fooled by the US rhetoric and bullshit.

Where we have no rights to be? So after WWII we had no rights to occupy Axis countries to ensure there was no further uprising or more war? After Iraq we had no right to occupy to ensure that their new government would succeed?

Honestly by your rationale other countries such as England and Spain are the worst. They pretty much wrote the book on occupying other countries.

[texas grass]

Well the American Indians never had a sovereign nation. I do not claim that it is right, but it's a bit different than the situation we see today. Also the fact that we took the land from the Indians from 1492 on forward. Ossetia declared it's independance back in the 1990s. So it is very recent.

South Ossetia's independance has not been recognized by any of the members of the United Nations. Therefore if the rest of the world doesn't recognize Ossetia then why shouldn't Georgia have the right to try to reunite their nation?



the american indians never had a sovereign nation. what a load of crap. america was their sovereign land.

georgia gained independance from russia in like 91, ossetia declared theirs in 92. why does georgia have the right to keep people they dont want.

of course the same people want to split iraq into 3 sections too.

if we declared kosovo independant why cant ossetia be independant? russia said that would bite us in the ass and look now. we are always so quick to break up other nations but when it comes to our allies its not allowed"its illegal to do that in todays times"

[RobPA]

the american indians never had a sovereign nation. what a load of crap. america was their sovereign land.

georgia gained independance from russia in like 91, ossetia declared theirs in 92. why does georgia have the right to keep people they dont want.

of course the same people want to split iraq into 3 sections too.

if we declared kosovo independant why cant ossetia be independant? russia said that would bite us in the ass and look now. we are always so quick to break up other nations but when it comes to our allies its not allowed"its illegal to do that in todays times"

WAs it? Then how do you explain Tribe Vs. Tribe warfare?? Are we to go back that far in history? They were killing each other over here even before we came, im not justifying what other countries did to the indians but its just the way it worked out.To Psychocat: Im sorry but all your statements are just screaming uninformed liberal, especially with the statement about "No Defensive Missles" I LOL'd at that one, looks like you are from the UK, has your country not followed us and assisted us in all the wars above? How about we go back and look at some of the atrocities YOUR country has done? Massacreing scots? The Irish? Germania ? I dont wanna get to far off topic here but you see my point. If your gonna bag on american Rhetoric, take a look at where your country stands, right next to us. Go Labour Party! :jointsmile::thumbsup:

[Fugitive]

CNN using false footage
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Longer report exposing media
7ojbqy1MJj8

Here they talk to the girl who went on fox news
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RussiaToday : News : War moves from battleground to broadcasting studio (http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/29092)

This is a live stream of Russia Today
Russia Today (http://streaming.visionip.tv/Russia_Today)

[daihashi]

the american indians never had a sovereign nation. what a load of crap. america was their sovereign land.

I never said it was right. But by definition The American Indians never had a Sovereign Nation. America was not a sovereign land in 1492. Here's a list of other unrecognized countries: List of unrecognized countries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecognized_countries)

Don't shoot the messenger. I don't make up international rules I just regurgitate the information. :hippy:


georgia gained independance from russia in like 91, ossetia declared theirs in 92. why does georgia have the right to keep people they dont want.

Why did we have the right to reunite our nation (civil war). They have really been in an idle civil war since 1992. If you want to take the high road then why are Russia or anyone for that matter interfere with another countries civil war?

Why would Ossetia who broke away from Russia go running back to them?

In either case... again I don't agree with it but I can understand their wish to reunite their country. Georgia instigated the attacks here but Russia has gone off the deep end with this one. If you honestly believe that Russia doesn't have any alterior motives bullying around Georgia, who used to be part of Russia not so long ago, then I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.


of course the same people want to split iraq into 3 sections too.

I don't necessarily think this is a bad idea but it should be the decision of the Iraqi people. Besides I haven't heard anything regarding this idea since 2006 or so. I believe it passed senate but died somewhere else.



if we declared kosovo independant why cant ossetia be independant? russia said that would bite us in the ass and look now. we are always so quick to break up other nations but when it comes to our allies its not allowed"its illegal to do that in todays times"

WE, the United States, do not declare anyone independant. That is done with the home country and the United Nations. And it's not so much them being independant but rather them having sovereignty.

I really don't understand your or anyones hasty finger pointing.

Why is it when the United States goes into a territory our own countrymen scream and yell how horrible we are.

When we mind our own business and verbally berate Russia for invading a poor small country... our own countrymen say how horrible we are for siding with Georgia. Honestly what do you people want. You're unhappy if we stay out of conflict and you're unhappy if we go into conflict. The world is not a happy go lucky place we'd all like it to be.

No other country I've visited has been so self hating as some of my fellow Americans and this boggles me. Being a well versed Traveler I can say with all certainty.. America has one of the better governments in the world. If you don't believe me just travel around and I mean to more than England, Amsterdam or Spain. Try going to some really poor Eastern European countries and maybe you'll hate America a little less. Hell, try going to Russia, If possible stay with a real Russian family. I have and I did... and it was sad as hell. I'm sure the amount of corruption and lack of certain common freedoms would change anyones mind.

When did we lose our pride as Americans? I'm going to say somewhere around the Korean War or Vietnam war.

[RobPA]

I never said it was right. But by definition The American Indians never had a Sovereign Nation. America was not a sovereign land in 1492. Here's a list of other unrecognized countries: List of unrecognized countries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unrecognized_countries)

Don't shoot the messenger. I don't make up international rules I just regurgitate the information. :hippy:



Why did we have the right to reunite our nation (civil war). They have really been in an idle civil war since 1992. If you want to take the high road then why are Russia or anyone for that matter interfere with another countries civil war?

Why would Ossetia who broke away from Russia go running back to them?

In either case... again I don't agree with it but I can understand their wish to reunite their country. Georgia instigated the attacks here but Russia has gone off the deep end with this one. If you honestly believe that Russia doesn't have any alterior motives bullying around Georgia, who used to be part of Russia not so long ago, then I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.



I don't necessarily think this is a bad idea but it should be the decision of the Iraqi people. Besides I haven't heard anything regarding this idea since 2006 or so. I believe it passed senate but died somewhere else.



WE, the United States, do not declare anyone independant. That is done with the home country and the United Nations. And it's not so much them being independant but rather them having sovereignty.

I really don't understand your or anyones hasty finger pointing.

Why is it when the United States goes into a territory our own countrymen scream and yell how horrible we are.

When we mind our own business and verbally berate Russia for invading a poor small country... our own countrymen say how horrible we are for siding with Georgia. Honestly what do you people want. You're unhappy if we stay out of conflict and you're unhappy if we go into conflict. The world is not a happy go lucky place we'd all like it to be.

No other country I've visited has been so self hating as some of my fellow Americans and this boggles me. Being a well versed Traveler I can say with all certainty.. America has one of the better governments in the world. If you don't believe me just travel around and I mean to more than England, Amsterdam or Spain. Try going to some really poor Eastern European countries and maybe you'll hate America a little less. Hell, try going to Russia, If possible stay with a real Russian family. I have and I did... and it was sad as hell. I'm sure the amount of corruption and lack of certain common freedoms would change anyones mind.

When did we lose our pride as Americans? I'm going to say somewhere around the Korean War or Vietnam war.



Wow, Great post :thumbsup: There are a couple of us left man, but it is real depressing seeing americans say things like this, boy are you right.

[psychocat]

WAs it? Then how do you explain Tribe Vs. Tribe warfare?? Are we to go back that far in history? They were killing each other over here even before we came, im not justifying what other countries did to the indians but its just the way it worked out.To Psychocat: Im sorry but all your statements are just screaming uninformed liberal,

You are so far wide of the mark about what you think I am that it makes the Grand Canyon look like a pencil line.
Please define liberal in your own words without resorting to a dictionary ?
Why do people still try to use the liberal label as some form of insult ?
It's kind of like when people can't think of anything and they decide "you know what , lets mention the Nazis", pathetic really.


has your country not followed us and assisted us in all the wars above?

Because my homeland decides to be Americas puppy does not mean I agree with them. As far as I'm concerned Tony Blair was a tosser and Gordon Brown is no better.
Do you take responsibility for all George Bush's decisions ?


How about we go back and look at some of the atrocities YOUR country has done? Massacreing scots? The Irish? Germania ? I dont wanna get to far off topic here but you see my point.
If your gonna bag on american Rhetoric, take a look at where your country stands, right next to us. Go Labour Party! :jointsmile::thumbsup:

What Britain has done in the past is condemned by the world at large and to be honest I couldn't care either way, I do however feel that if you condemn Britain for Scotland then you MUST condemn Georgia for it's behaviour towards Ossetia, otherwise you are guilty of hypocrisy. :D

I believe I have made my feelings clear regarding Mr Blair and his cronies .

[RobPA]

You are so far wide of the mark about what you think I am that it makes the Grand Canyon look like a pencil line.
Please define liberal in your own words without resorting to a dictionary ?
Why do people still try to use the liberal label as some form of insult ?
It's kind of like when people can't think of anything and they decide "you know what , lets mention the Nazis", pathetic really.



Because my homeland decides to be Americas puppy does not mean I agree with them. As far as I'm concerned Tony Blair was a tosser and Gordon Brown is no better.
Do you take responsibility for all George Bush's decisions ?



What Britain has done in the past is condemned by the world at large and to be honest I couldn't care either way, I do however feel that if you condemn Britain for Scotland then you MUST condemn Georgia for it's behaviour towards Ossetia, otherwise you are guilty of hypocrisy. :D

I believe I have made my feelings clear regarding Mr Blair and his cronies .


At this point it just seems we have totally opposite opinions on politics and social policy. I dont wish to "insult" you anymore so lets just agree to disagree. Its not a cop out but I really dont want to get into a debate over scottish History. And yes, I take some responsibility for Bush's action because I will admit that I did vote for him both elections. I look back and wish I hadent voted at all the second election. We are on opposite ends of the political spectrum. To answer your first question I would define a liberal as the party in your country called the Liberal Democrat party, since parties differ obviously between our 2 countries. I personally like Tony Blair and see him as a strong ally of the US, while you see it as the UK being our puppydog, I see them as being our Strong allies and friends. I would probably vote Tory Party(Con's) if I were in your country, planely because Labour leans a little to socialist to me, but not as much as the Liberal Dems, Although tony blair is labour he has shown a lot of independant qualities in the brit government and I cant really catagorize him as a socialist (which is why I would support labour over liberal-dem, hence why i made that go labour party comment in my earlier post). In closing I will agree to disagree with you and happy we share the same views on cannabis legalization and decriminalization in both our countries. :jointsmile:

[psychocat]

At this point it just seems we have totally opposite opinions on politics and social policy. I dont wish to "insult" you anymore so lets just agree to disagree. Its not a cop out but I really dont want to get into a debate over scottish History. And yes, I take some responsibility for Bush's action because I will admit that I did vote for him both elections. I look back and wish I hadent voted at all the second election. We are on opposite ends of the political spectrum. To answer your first question I would define a liberal as the party in your country called the Liberal Democrat party, since parties differ obviously between our 2 countries. I personally like Tony Blair and see him as a strong ally of the US, while you see it as the UK being our puppydog, I see them as being our Strong allies and friends. I would probably vote Tory Party(Con's) if I were in your country, planely because Labour leans a little to socialist to me, but not as much as the Liberal Dems, Although tony blair is labour he has shown a lot of independant qualities in the brit government and I cant really catagorize him as a socialist (which is why I would support labour over liberal-dem, hence why i made that go labour party comment in my earlier post). In closing I will agree to disagree with you and happy we share the same views on cannabis legalization and decriminalization in both our countries. :jointsmile:


I have absolutely no problem with anyone who doesn't agree with me , I rely on it that people will often disagree with me , I would hate a world where everyone agreed with me. I think in that kind of world I would definately go on a killing spree :rambohead:

BTW

I have no real political association, I hate all politicians for the scheming toads they are, I am neither liberal (as I DO support the death penalty) nor tory (I believe Maggie Thatcher was the worst PM ever) .
I am also no fan of labour , I have met Tony on a couple of occasions and I didn't ever like him , he was MP for the area where I grew up (Sedgefield) and I watched him rise from local councilor to the heady heights of 10 Downing Street.
He always gave me the feeling I was talking to a dodgy second-hand car dealer.

If you knew me better you would know
A . I hate all goverments for various reasons.
B . I am an anarchist in that I believe all rules should be scrapped and man left to is own devices.
C . I am viewed as something of a sociopath because I believe society only feeds upon the weak and in a dog eat dog world mankind would achieve the true balance only given by survival of the fittest.