Biofuels 'causing food price rises' [Archive] - Green Grass Forums

texas grass

07-07-2008, 02:08 PM

Biofuels 'causing food price rises'
World leaders will meet next week to discuss food prices in developing countries [AFP]

Biofuels have triggered a 75 per cent increase in world food prices, according to a leaked confidential report from the World Bank.

The report's author, a senior economist at the bank, said that contrary to claims by the United States government, increased demand from India and China had not been the cause of rising food prices.

"Rapid income growth in developing countries has not led to large increases in global grain consumption," the report said.

Rising food prices and the use of biofuels, which supporters claim are a greener alternative to using fossil fuel, will be discussed at a G8 summit in Japan next week.

The report estimated that compared with biofuels, higher energy and fertiliser prices had accounted for an increase of only 15 per cent in food prices.

The report said that droughts in Australia have also not had a significant impact on prices.

Biofuels push

It highlighted Europe and the US as being the biggest proponents for the greater use of biofuels, and therefore of having the greatest effect.

All petrol and diesel in Britain has had to include a biofuels component of at least 2.5 per cent since April this year.

In response to the report, Bruegel, a Brussels-based economic think tank, also attacked the use of the fuels.

It said that biofuels fail to contribute to energy security, do not achieve cheap cuts in emissions of greenhouse gases and trigger higher food prices worldwide.

On Friday, the European Union said it would continue to push ahead with plans to see biofuels account for at least 10 per cent of energy used by the bloc's huge transport sector by 2020.

Michael Mann, an EU spokesman, said: "If you don't have targets, you don't make progress [in combating climate change]."

Markets distorted

Friday's report said: "Without the increase in biofuels, global wheat and maize stocks would not have declined appreciably and price increases due to other factors would have been moderate."

It said that the drive for biofuels has distorted food markets by diverting grain away from food for fuel, encouraging farmers to set aside land for its production, and sparked financial speculation on grains.

But Brazil's transformation of sugar cane into fuel has not had such a dramatic impact, the report said.

Robert Bailey, biofuels policy adviser for the UK-based Oxfam charity, told Al Jazeera that the report sounded "perfectly credible".

"There's absolutely no evidence that these fuels are actually going to contribute to reducing the emissions from transport," he said.

"There's very little evidence to suggest that they're actually providing a credible alternative to oil â?? at best they can only be a marginal alternative - but there's huge evidence that they're causing deforestation overseas and driving up food prices with huge impacts upon poverty."

Last week, Oxfam estimated that biofuels were responsible for driving 30 million people across the world into poverty.

Bailey said: "But we're coming up against a lot resistance in rich countries [to get rid of biofuels] and I think the reason â?¦ for these policies isn't fear or security, or climate change, it's about covering continued avenues to support agricultural lobbies in rich countries."

Robert Vierhout, from the European bioethanol fuel association, disputed Oxfam's findings, saying there were undisputed environmental benefits to using the fuels and that they could be used "in a cost efficient way".

stinkyattic

07-07-2008, 05:24 PM

Problem:
Competition for access to corn crops coming from grain, animal feed, and biofuel industries is boosting prices.

Solution:
Prioritize. Number one should be grain for human consumption. Number two should be transportation, and that should be made more efficient in every way possible, from increasing public transit routes to improving fuel efficiency in all types of vehicles, industrial, and heating systems.
Number three should be grain to animal feed. You know, we don't NEED animal protein at every meal... We can get lots of protein from soy products and even genetically modified sweet potatoes that NASA has been developing as a sustainable space food. Meat is a luxury in poor countries. We need to start eating like peasants, not like kings.

This is very much a mess of our own making.

delusionsofNORMALity

07-07-2008, 06:27 PM

Problem:
Competition for access to corn crops coming from grain, animal feed, and biofuel industries is boosting prices.there is going to be a down side to any form our transportation may take. where emissions may be controlled, starvation cannot be avoided if we convert to bio-fuels. whether we use food crops or convert tillable land to the production of more efficient crops, our food production will suffer. obviously bio-fuels are another dead end, just like the hybrids that have become more a status symbol than an answer.

..... we don't NEED animal protein at every meal... We can get lots of protein from soy products and even genetically modified sweet potatoes that NASA has been developing as a sustainable space food. Meat is a luxury in poor countries. We need to start eating like peasants, not like kings.careful there, you're starting to sound a bit too much like brak and that whole comfortable poverty crowd. forcibly lowering our standard of living does nothing more than limit our freedom of choice and hand even more of the people's power to would-be tyrants. we are omnivorous creatures and the luxury of eating meat is one of those little perks that comes with the drive to success.

stinkyattic

07-07-2008, 06:40 PM

I've never heard the term 'comfortable poverty', but something tells me you'd get a kick out of my town were you ever to visit. It's practically a badge of honor to drive THE crappiest rattlebox with the most political bumper stickers, and see and be seen at Salvation Army shopping for jeans on a Saturday morning (OMG let's NOT go to the Gap!), and to subsist off vegan chili with textured soy protein and brown rice, and visit with friends at the farmers market while poking at all the local organic offerings. It's a very 'green' existence overall, and not NEARLY as many houses are for sale around here as in more affluent-appearing areas. Yankee hippies are VERY good with money, lol!

But if we're going to get down to it, while we DO eat far too much red meat as a nation, I don't really think that's the solution, in and of itself, to the bigger problem. It's limiting our FUEL consumption that is number one, and reducing our overall consumption of frivolous plastic crap that we don't need. That's how the tyrants get our money to begin with.

Breukelen advocaat

07-07-2008, 07:02 PM

It should be a wake-up call for people to stop eating soy, gluten grains (wheat, barely, rye) and corn. They are toxic, the health risks of all these substances far outweigh the benefits, and for many they are completely intolerable. I am all for using them as fuel rather than food - provided that they do not harm the ecology more than oil based products.

stinkyattic

07-07-2008, 07:17 PM

What about lentils? I love me some red lentil dal. Is that on your thumbs up list? Yum yum! But seriously, where do you personally prefer to get your protein? And I think actually that's a question with 2 answers, or 2 questions:

-Where do you get your protein in general, as a daily habit
-Do you feel you should be getting a higher percentage of it from other sources, and if so, what sources would those be?

I'll answer as an example:
Much of my day-to-day protein comes from cheese, black beans, and seafood. Clams if I can find good ones, fish n chips if I can't. I'm a sucker for mussels but only if I trust the source. When I go 'out', I'll admit I'm a St. Louis style ribs addict, and definitely eat a lot of burritos. Granted they usually have chicken in them, but the total chicken in a burrito is like half a breast, and there's 2-3x the weight in black beans along for the ride.
In a more efficient world, I'd be growing sweet potatoes and buying bulk dry lentils and black beans, cutting back on the cheese (subtly different from cutting the cheese), keeping chickens for eggs, and forgoing the ribs.
Somewhere in the middle is a more sustainable diet that I'd still be pretty happy with.

Breukelen advocaat

07-07-2008, 07:56 PM

I get protein from egg (mostly) whites (the expensive "free roaming chickens" type), low-fat turkey slices and hot dogs, chicken, fresh veggie juice, small amounts in veggies, etc.

Lentils are another thing I avoid - too rough.

Cow's milk is something that I will never have again, including any product that contains casein. I use a product called DariFree, which is powdered potato with other ingredients, instead of milk. The casein in goat's milk is much healthier than the cow's milk type, but goat's milk is still high in cholesterol. It's very tasty and I drank it for a while, but ultimately gave that up as well. Milk actually can cause osteoporosis, but that's better explained by a professional. There are also different types of cows and different milk from them, some not as bad. We probably get the worst kinds. I get very zoned out from casein, even from small amounts consumed by accident.

My wife is currently experiencing menopausal "hot flashes" that could be alleviated by soy supplements, but soy wreaks havoc on the immune and hormonal systems so she's not using it. We used to be avid soy consumers.

The website of Dr. J, below, a vet, has most of the information that convinced me to avoid cow dairy, corn, soy, lentils and other foods in addition to gluten grains. He also has celiac disease, as I do, and is adamantly anti-gluten for everyone. He's finished a book, about food-related disorders, that is coming out soon.

The Answer (http://dogtorj.net/id4.html)

We are certainly the only species to drink the milk of another animal. To compound matters, look at the animal we chose to nurse: a huge beast that never moves. He is one of the most lethargic of earths mammals. The fact is that the composition of their milk fits their nursing period and their weight at adulthood. The universal truth is that all mammals nurse their young until they triple their birth weight. This ranges from three weeks in the guinea pig to three years in the elephant. Every other mammal is pretty much somewhere in between.
The Answer (http://dogtorj.net/id4.html)

delusionsofNORMALity

07-08-2008, 01:07 AM

I've never heard the term 'comfortable poverty'i'm not sure if i actually coined the phrase, but i've taken to using it more and more often. comfortable poverty is the end result of the new left's schemes of wealth redistribution and the socialist realignment of america. the gradual destruction of the middle and upper-middle classes so that they combine with the poor to be taken care of by that oh so benevolent government. it is a state where the masses are provided with just enough useless crap to make them forget that they have given up the freedom to decide their own destiny.

something tells me you'd get a kick out of my town were you ever to visit. It's practically a badge of honor to drive THE crappiest rattlebox with the most political bumper stickers, and see and be seen at Salvation Army shopping for jeans on a Saturday morning (OMG let's NOT go to the Gap!), and to subsist off vegan chili with textured soy protein and brown rice, and visit with friends at the farmers market while poking at all the local organic offerings. It's a very 'green' existence overall, and not NEARLY as many houses are for sale around here as in more affluent-appearing areas. Yankee hippies are VERY good with money, lol!i've been living out here in the armpit of consumerism for way too long, trapped between quasi-liberal buffoons on the coast and uptight conservative soccer moms inland. this is the land of people who buy a new car every year living right next to folks who couldn't afford one if their lives depended on it. the bumper stickers here are sedate and mostly concern who's child is better at learning absolutely nothing and which school their doing it at. "green" is a buzz word they use to make themselves feel a little better about driving around in their excursions with the a/c on in the middle of december. they play at living a healthy lifestyle by shopping at henry's or whole foods and gossiping at the gym three times a week, but when the evenings are spent glued to the tv and downing copious amounts of their favorite alcoholic beverages their true way of life is quite evident. finally, this is the land where no one knows anyone and that's the way they want it. lonely individuals lacking individuality and reveling in the fact that, as long as no one knows them, their air of superiority remains intact. here i sit, an aging hippie with delusions of normality, feeding off the folly of a society in decline. what a trip.

It's limiting our FUEL consumption that is number one, and reducing our overall consumption of frivolous plastic crap that we don't need. That's how the tyrants get our money to begin with.please don't confuse the real tyrants with those who merely finance and enable them. after all, we all do that to some extent. i'm in the midst of a long standing feud (in another place which will remain nameless) over the role of corporations in the downfall of america. it is the party line of the new left that corporate america is to blame for all the worst in this country, while any thinking person could plainly see that it is the bureaucracy and its devious agendas that are the real enemy of the people. business is all about making money and they make no bones about it. government, though they should be in the business of catering to the will of the people, has become centered on the consolidation of power and the defrauding of its constituency. blaming business for attempting to succeed is like blaming a fish for swimming. allowing government to grow unchecked is the road to totalitarianism.

Stoner Shadow Wolf

07-08-2008, 02:00 AM

WHY CANT EVERYONE JUST STOP PAYING TAXES ALL TOGETHER ALL AT ONCE AND GO ON A NATIONAL STRIKE?!???!?!?! GOD DAMNED RETARDS!!!

*sorry everyone, i cant be a part of political crapola...*

GreenDestiny

07-08-2008, 04:46 AM

The website of Dr. J, below, a vet, has most of the information that convinced me to avoid cow dairy, corn, soy, lentils and other foods in addition to gluten grains. He also has celiac disease, as I do, and is adamantly anti-gluten for everyone. He's finished a book, about food-related disorders, that is coming out soon.

The Answer (http://dogtorj.net/id4.html)

Thank you for sharing that link, I've only had time to read a little bit of it so far, but it's starting to concern me a great deal.... I have an allergy to many wheat products and am thinking its probably the gluten. Plus those symptoms of Celiac disease sounds more like what I've got instead of the Crohn's that I was diagnosed with...Being that my diagnosis was the "best guess" of the gastrointerologist, I'm willing to bet there's a good chance that it's not exactly what I have. Going back to hospitals for more guinea pig tests is not an option for me, so information like this will help me to find the things I need to avoid in my diets. And what a coincidence, I've been tested to have an allergy to soy also.... it seems I'm "allergic" to all things bad for the body.

texas grass

07-08-2008, 12:56 PM

Problem:
We can get lots of protein from soy products and even genetically modified sweet potatoes that NASA has been developing as a sustainable space food. Meat is a luxury in poor countries. We need to start eating like peasants, not like kings.

This is very much a mess of our own making.

gm foods are one of the problems with our diets and chemical ferts(monsantos gm corn with the bt chemical in it or roundup). one reason i think this is, back in the day when we didnt use chem ferts, pesticides, herbisides, our food plants would naturally fight off diesease and become stronger generation to generation. with all this impure stuff it destroyes the plant immune system and most all the living biology. on top of that, with all the chem ferts in the plant, the plant doesnt have all the nutritional value that human bodies were used to for thousands of years.since the plant doesnt have all the nutritional value that human bodies are used to, our cells dont get the nutritional value they need and they tell our bodies we need more food so we can get that last bit of nutrition

stinkyattic

07-08-2008, 01:36 PM

DoN it hit me what you were saying last night and I almost got out of bed to say Eureka! on the record- that as you see it, the push for the individual to make sacrifices and improve personal efficiency is simply a red herring thrown out among us to distract from the fact that our entire system is horribly inefficient? And that it is simpler for the government to create another task force to address whtever the problem du jour is than to shrink itself and let us as individuals have more control over our lifestyles? The matador waves his cape again and we all run out and buy Priuses, instead of firing the fucking Matador.

Tex, I know- I don't like the idea of genetically engineered food either, and I think that the Monsanto style of going about it is at best immoral and at worst the beginning of the end of sustainable agriculture. However I feel that in specific situations, IF it is done ethically- yeah I'm a dreamer, so sue me- there are benefits to be gained. Although I definitely think that selective breeding is far preferable.

Psycho4Bud

07-08-2008, 04:58 PM

World food prices are expected to remain at historically high levels as a result of crop losses from serious flooding in the US midwest.

The floods have devastated at least 10 per cent of the corn crop in the US state of Iowa and have had an equally devastating effect on this year's soybean harvest.

Corn and soybean are used in processed food and are fed to cattle that produce America's meat.

The reduction in grain output is likely to force food prices even higher at a time when many countries around the world are already struggling with the rising cost of basic foods.

World corn prices have risen to record highs and are 90 per cent higher than they were a year ago.
US flooding locks in record food prices - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/18/2277906.htm?section=business)

Still, the researchers caution that neither biofuel can come close to meeting the growing demand for alternatives to petroleum. Dedicating all current U.S. corn and soybean production to biofuels would meet only 12 percent of gasoline demand and 6 percent of diesel demand. Meanwhile, global population growth and increasingly affluent societies will increase demand for corn and soybeans for food.
Soybean biodiesel has higher net energy benefit than corn ethanol - study (http://news.mongabay.com/2006/0711-umn.html)

These bio-fuels will do very little to help us in the energy crunch but it sure will have an effect on our food prices. GREAT PLAN for the dems....why not get raped at your local grocery store before getting raped at the pump?:rolleyes:

Have a good one!:s4:

allrollsin21

07-08-2008, 05:06 PM

It takes enough food to feed one cow as it would to feed MANY people. Not sure of the amount of people(its been a while since i studied this), but our heavy meat dependent diets are inefficient and have caused way more people to starve over the last thirty years than biofuels have.
Instead of eating the grains and greens we are fattening up cattle who are then using some of that energy to graze around the fields, and then $hit out the energy as fertilizer for the field. We are receiving nutrition second hand, depleted.
Stop feeding livestock what can be fed to starving people. Its not a matter of comfort but a matter of priorities. Does anyone think meat eaters are happier than vegetarians? I don't

Psycho4Bud

07-08-2008, 05:26 PM

Drop the supply of beef and you'll see a huge esculation in meat prices. Sure would be nice to see the rich and famous eating their steaks while us meager folk in the middle to lower class income try to grill a soy burger.

I guess we could hunt for meat.....that's if they don't take away our gun rights too.

Have a good one!:s4:

allrollsin21

07-08-2008, 06:36 PM

stinkyattic

07-08-2008, 06:48 PM

Anyhow those up for the challenge, hunt with knives
How primitive! Real G's hunt with blowguns! :D

texas grass

07-08-2008, 06:52 PM

These bio-fuels will do very little to help us in the energy crunch but it sure will have an effect on our food prices. GREAT PLAN for the dems....why not get raped at your local grocery store before getting raped at the pump?:rolleyes:

Have a good one!:s4:

blame the dems when the republicans are also in power.
lol, lol, lol, lol:thumbsup:

allrollsin21

07-08-2008, 07:23 PM

I love how when people are discussing politics they get so absurdly black and white in their thinking that they can believe the silliest of arguments. It the same with pro pot arguments and no pot arguments.
I try everyday to take myself less seriously. Its a struggle worth fighting!

Psycho4Bud

07-08-2008, 08:12 PM

A market driven drop of the supply of Beef is not going to escalate prices. It would deflate prices. If the demand for Beef lowers, the supply increases.
Anyhow those up for the challenge, hunt with knives:cool:

So your hoping that everyone decides to give up beef? I can't see that one happening EVER!

blame the dems when the republicans are also in power.
lol, lol, lol, lol:thumbsup:

Which candidate is against drilling and nuclear power? Which candidate has the backing of bio-fuel special interest groups?
LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL :thumbsup:

Have a good one!:s4:

allrollsin21

07-08-2008, 08:29 PM

"So your hoping that everyone decides to give up beef? I can't see that one happening EVER!"

I am not hoping anything of everyone. All i am sure of is the greatest change i can help see happen, begins with myself. I have chosen not to eat beef because of these environmental issues. Its good to lead by example of action, and not just words.

Really all it would take for people to slowly switch off of their beef 'needs' is to make the decision that the whole is more important than the self. Its not impossible! Only unlikely.

It could be perfect though because it would best happen not all at once. The earth and land and people would need to adapt to this lifestyle change. With planning and forethought it would improve the lives of many people on earth.

texas grass

07-08-2008, 09:27 PM

Which candidate is against drilling and nuclear power? Which candidate has the backing of bio-fuel special interest groups?
LOL, LOL, LOL, LOL :thumbsup:

Have a good one!:s4:

so since clinton left office this country has gone to shit 10 fold faster.

it was under the republicans that gas prices went up
its under the republicans that medical cost and care has gone up in price
its the republicans that held congress senate and executive office from 2000-2006
since republicans have been in office taxes have gone up for every person i know
can blame republicans for the lack of help for american citizens and the hurricaine katrina
its the republicans, its the republicans oh wait its the dems too, OH WAIT ITS BOTH

it aint just the dems its both dems and republicans in bed with eachother

p4b all you ever do is blame dems,
and thats the problem everything is polarized in this country

Psycho4Bud

07-08-2008, 10:18 PM

I am not hoping anything of everyone. All i am sure of is the greatest change i can help see happen, begins with myself. I have chosen not to eat beef because of these environmental issues. Its good to lead by example of action, and not just words.

VERY cool but I can't see either myself or the rest of the U.S. following your lead on this one. I was raised on meat, potatoes and gravy; I think this old Norwegians body would go into shock without it.

so since clinton left office this country has gone to shit 10 fold faster.

p4b all you ever do is blame dems,
and thats the problem everything is polarized in this country

And what did Clinton do to help with ANY of the problems we face today? What did he do to further research into alternative fuels? What action did he take to make sure Bin Laden was either in a prison or dead? Nice how he cut off the vets medical benifits at the age of 65 instead of the free health care for life for them and their spouses that they were entitled to! What a guy.....at least in Monica's eyes.:rolleyes:

Blaming dems? NO to extra drilling, NO to nuclear power....what more can be said accept for their great concept that the fed needs to babysit everyone instead of letting people make personal decisions for themselves. If it's bad for your health or MAYBE someone elses it's bad for all! And this is the party that people are banking on for legalizing marijuana? Tell that to the cigarette or liquor industry.

By the way, republicans aren't much better but it's that "better of the two evils" thing.:thumbsup:

Have a good one!:s4:

Stoner Shadow Wolf

07-09-2008, 12:28 AM

*brain aneurysm*

GOD DAMNIT YOU PEOPLE!!!! ARGGHHHH!!!!

There IS no LESSER of TWO EVILS!!! THEY'RE BOTH FUCKING EVIL AND YOU KNOW IT!

I DEMAND INDEPENDENCE REIGN AGAIN! FUCK PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS, FUCK CONGRESS BE FREE. FOR GOD'S SAKE TAKE FREEDOM IN YOUR HANDS AND RIP IT FROM THE POWERS THAT BE!!!!! STOP WAITING AROUND FOR FREEDOM TO BE GIVEN TO YOU!!! IT WONT HAPPEN!!!

Death is SO MUCH better right now than a presidential election! At least THEN there is freedom! FUCK IT! JUST FUCK IT!

You're all acting like babies, fighting over who is better, mommy or daddy, when they are both abusive fuckers who deserve to be reported to child services.

RUN AWAY, BE DEFIANT! Stop sucking the teat of dependence and stop supporting this god awful country.

You're all so absorbed by the rules of the game that you cannot look to see that the game itself is raping us all.

Stoner Shadow Wolf

07-09-2008, 12:46 AM

psychocat

07-09-2008, 01:09 AM

The news that the demand for biofuels is causing increased food prices comes as no suprise.
Any fool can do the simple math needed to understand that more demand for a limited product increases it's value and price.
Hydrogen cell fuel technology and nuclear power stations to provide electricity are the future.

silkyblue

07-09-2008, 01:11 AM

good idea

delusionsofNORMALity

07-09-2008, 02:13 AM

it's so nice for this dirty old man to think that there might actually be some sweet young thing thinking about me as she lays in her bed at night.:D

DoN it hit me what you were saying last night and I almost got out of bed to say Eureka! on the record- that as you see it, the push for the individual to make sacrifices and improve personal efficiency is simply a red herring thrown out among us to distract from the fact that our entire system is horribly inefficient? And that it is simpler for the government to create another task force to address whatever the problem du jour is than to shrink itself and let us as individuals have more control over our lifestyles? The matador waves his cape again and we all run out and buy Priuses, instead of firing the fucking Matador.individual sacrifice is all fine and dandy, but it must be by choice, not mandated by the state. we have been given scapegoats for decades and have naively drank the kool-aid, thinking it to be our patriotic duty. immigrants, communists, big business, and finally the people themselves; all scapegoats and all to mask the great con that is government.

the aim of the bureaucrat is to expand his power base and to spawn other bureaucrats to do his bidding. they, in turn, do the exact same thing and on and on, thus is our massive federal bureaucracy born. so many little political animals to vie for their own slice of an ever dwindling pie. each day a new emergency to frighten the citizenry, another chance for those animals to steal a little more power for themselves from the people they are sworn to protect. our safety is an illusion, our control over the government is an illusion, our rights are dwindling and soon our freedom may be only an illusion.

believing that people are capable of standing on their own two feet and making rational decisions for themselves, i am often considered an arch conservative or heartless neocon (hell, i ain't even sure what a freakin' neocon is). it seems rather silly that a life long anarcho-communalist should be seen as such, but that's just the way things are these days. i look around and see a world full of children, scared to grow up and take responsibility and all too willing to allow governments to take away that responsibility. with that responsibility flies our freedom to choose our own destinies.

well, it appears i've gone off on another small rant. it was probably completely off topic too.

There IS no LESSER of TWO EVILS!!! THEY'RE BOTH FUCKING EVIL AND YOU KNOW IT!how many folks do you really think do know it? we are all slowly becoming anarchists in training after being forced to endure a series of thieves, philanderers, imbeciles and frauds. greatness frightens us far too much to hope that there will ever be a truly great man in the oval office again.

Stoner Shadow Wolf

07-09-2008, 02:45 AM

Honestly? i think everyone is aware of it, but not everyone is willing to admit it. the whole fool's pride thing; they are too ashamed of having supported the whole system to admit that the system could be wrong, to try to save their foolish pride.

i really regret the liberal use of the word "fuck" in that post :o
:sorry1:

but in any case, yeah, i think more people are aware of more than they let on, but aren't willing to admit it for their own reasons, be it foolish pride, hope, or loss thereof (hope).

GreenDestiny

07-09-2008, 04:09 AM

ah- yeah... sorry about all that.... i didnt meaqn to come off as such a pissant and such, but at the same time you gotta realize this stuff needs to be said... people need to hear it. i dont want to be an asshole about it, but if im not, no one will listen anyways! XD either way uh... i'll try to avoid the topic for now.

Heheh... yeah, just follow the money, it goes way up past Dems and Reps, they are just two flavours from the same shitfactory we call capitalism.... world bank, federal reserve, irs, etc....

Kinda funny that we're given the choices for whom to vote for, we don't get to ultimately pick who's on the ballot, nor do we get to mark an answer that says "hey this system of government is fux0red let's have some new shit to choose from". Ted Kaczynski was right about one thing, we need revolution instead of reformation but to get that the whole system would have to come crumbling down...

Eh, well I agree that biofuel at the moment doesn't have a great impact on the economy, but all that corn and soy should be used to make the fuel instead of pacifying our hunger for real food. GMO plants to make biofuel would be acceptable to me, but not for eating or feeding animals.

dragonrider

07-09-2008, 07:23 PM

Wow, what an interesting thread. It started off about bio-fuels and food costs, and from there it has wandered all around all kinds of social, economic, political, environmental, ethical, and moral ground!

Anyway, back to biofuels...

Food crops are not a good feedstock for biofuels because they are expensive to farm and because we need them for food. Right now the eaisiest feedstocks for ethanol are grains like corn because the technology has been around forever (ethanol plants are basically giant whiskey stills). The ethatnol-producing yeasts need sugar to convert to ethanol, and there is plenty of sugar in corn. In Brazil they use sugar cane for ethanol and do not import a drop of oil. The breakthrough technology will be the new enzymes and/or microbes that can break down other hard-to-digest carbohydrates such as cellulose into sugar that can be digested into ethanol. At that point we will be able to turn things like farm waste, cornstalks, grasses, wood chips and other easy-to-come-by non-food materials into ethanol. We won't need to use food.

There are other technologies for converting non-food waste products into fuels other than ethanol which will alse be important. The microbes that digest organic waste into methane are less picky than the ethanol yeasts --- basically you can feed them any kind of shit, literally. My local wastewater treatment plant gets 80% of its electricity by digesting sewage sludge into methane and burning that for electricity --- yours probably does too.

Garbage pretty much turns to methane naturally. My local landfill has a system to capture methane that comes form naturally occuring decomposition inside the pile. Mostly they burn it for electricity, but now the garbage company is installing a liquification facility and they are going to convert the entire garbage truck fleet to run on liquified natural gas from the landfill. This process can be made even more efficient by not putting the organic waste in the landfill in the first place --- instead you capture it first and run it through a digester.

And there is even a technology to convert ANY kind of organic material into oil --- garbage, sewage, slauhgterhouse waste, old tires, plastic, toxic chemicals, ANYTHING organic. It uses a reactor vessel that is very similar to what is used in exisiting oil refineries, and it heats the organic material to extremely high temperatures and pressures in the presence of water. Under those conditions, organic material breaks down into oil that can be run throguh the normal refinery process to make any kind of fuel or industrial petroleum product. They are running some of these plants in Europe, and there is one demostration plant in the US. It hasn't been cost effective in the past, but with oil at $140 a barrel, I bet it is.

I think the future of transportation fuel will be a combination of these methods of converting WASTE biomass into fuel. We won't need to use our food supply. We make enough waste that we can run our socisty on it if we learn how to use it.

Ok, back to random discussion. may I suggest...

Don't eat beef, don't eat soy --- eat bugs!
Bush is a big fat liar!
Evolution!
Stop workin' for the Man, man!

Or we can just stick with biofuels....

psychocat

07-09-2008, 10:22 PM

Stoner Shadow Wolf

07-09-2008, 10:46 PM

That's it!
right there.
We're dead.

either A, we kill the land first, then ourselves when there is no farming, or B our "benefactors" kill us off quietly.

AND STILL no one sees the NECESSITY OF TRIBALISM?!?

The yin and the yang must coexist, or the yin will fade away and the yang will explode.

we must give in to our darkest natures, and make them socially acceptable, in the current state of civilization.

dragonrider

07-09-2008, 11:30 PM

The problem comes down to one thing , land being used for food crops or cash crops , the more crops you grow for fuel the less food crops can be grown. The demand for both isn't going to lessen it's just going to keep growing as is the population , suitable land for farming and homes will become more desirable.
Then you face another problem in that the demand for land will push up the price for farmers and land developers , land will be taken for the building of homes leaving less for crops.

The only realistic answer is LESS PEOPLE ! ;)

Yes, you are absolutely correct about this.

The root of all of these scarcity problems is the fact that there are way way too many of us. Everything we consume, food, water, fuel, etc. comes out of the earth, and the earth has only a limited capacity to produce.

Our reliance on fossil fuels has been spending what has been basically "money in the bank" until it is almost all gone at this point. We've used fossil fuels to grow our society beyond what may be sustainable. Those fossil fuels were once living organisms on the surface of the earth. All of their stored energy came from the sun, was turned into organic matter by plants using the energy of sunlight, were deposited under ground through a process of millions of years, where heat and pressure converted it into the oil and coal that we have burning for the last 100 years. Ultimately it all came from the sun and was converted to fuel by natural processes on the earth. Once it is gone, we'll have to wait a few more million years for more to show up, and we'll have to figure out what to do until then.

Now that we have used up almost all the stored energy of the past millions of years, we are turning to biofuels to use that solar energy immediately as it is produced. Sunlight comes from the sun, plants convert it to stored energy in the form of carbohydrates and sugars, and instead of letting the heat and pressure of the earth convert it to oil over millions of years, we ferment it into ethanol or digest it into methane directly in a matter of days.

The question is whether the earth has enough capacity (farmland) to produce all the food we need to eat and all the fuel we need to run our society. Probably not. We are either going to starve or run out of gas --- especially if we try to grow our fuel the same way we grow our food.

That's why I think it is more important to focus on using WASTE biomass to produce fuel, rather than use food crops. We can't grow both, so we should grow food and use the waste from that process to make fuel.

Also, we need to use other forms of energy other than biofuel. Biofuel is mostly attractive because it uses a similar infrastructure to what we already have in place. But using plants to make fuel out of sunlight is not the most efficiant way to harness the power of sunlight. An acre of solar power station produces a lot more energy than an acre of fuel crops. Now that we have used up all of our "money in the bank" we'll ultimately need to go to solar power and come up with a different way to run our transportation off of solar electricity.

Even if we do manage to make that conversion, I'm not sure we haven't already exceeded the earth's carrying capacity with our enormous population. We may still have a collapse of our society and starve ourselves back down to a manageable population...

thcbongman

07-10-2008, 01:19 AM

Personally, I think this is an opportunity to cut some farm subsideries. I think subsideries leads to more waste and unproductive land when it could be used for growing food.

This is an opportunity to bring wealth to American farmer. If there's more demand, that's good for them. Let him grow and make money.

High fructose corn syrup is a main attribute to obesity since it contained in all types of junk food. Since it will be a luxury, many people will lose weight like that by the raise in junk food prices.

I agree that they should be more of a focus on waste-to-fuel. In the mean-time it would not hurt to supplement the alternative energy market by any means.

The only way people will learn to conserve is when prices are high. Great example is countries in Europe. Food is expensive, but the quality of the food is better and there isn't as large of an obesity problem.