Rust - Black leaf spot mold help!

[criom]

So far ive lost 2 plants to this problem and more on the way.

Ive been using serenade every 3-5 days with some success but it keeps coming back. Will i have to keep spraying the plants for their entire life cycle or will they eventually fight it off?

What else can i try to combat this problem?

i have a sulpher spray, and am considering trying the baking soda method if someone thinks that is a good idea.


im hoping someone experienced with serenade can chime in, it seems to work but only for so long before the rust starts back up.

are infected plants contagious to others around them?

can it be treated by doing soil drenches?

does neem oil help whatsoever?

any input would be greatly appreciated

[stinkyattic]

That seedling is in too large a container to effectively use soil moisture. You may have problems stemming from THAT. I'm not 100% convinced it is actually fungal, either; if it is, I'd point a finger at a root zone problem. Yes, Serenade is safe a sa soil drench. Since it is just beneficial microbes, using it in the soil isn't dangerous for your plants.
However you can get spotting like that from other problems too- such as poor soil pH, inappropriate fertilizer levels (although I don't see tip burn normally associated with that), or overwatering.
Add drainage to your pot and adjust your watering schedule to allow soil to get rather dry between waterings.
Neem oil is effective against fungi that settle on the leaf surface. It probably won't do a thing for your problem, since yours looks like it is coming from within.

[criom]

thanks very much for your reply

about what dose should i give them for a serenade soil drench?

ive never had this problem before with seedlings in larger pots the only thing im doing different now is i added about 20% coco to the mix (light warrior/ocean forest) as reccomended by the hydro shop guys.


im thinking the coco is messing with the ph or moisture alot.


should i just squirt the entire top level of soil with serenade?

continue with bi-weekly soil drenches of neem oil as well as weekly sprays onto leafs?


is hydrogen peroxide useful at all in higher levels for fertilizing to kill anything in the soil?


neway thanks again :thumbsup:

[stinkyattic]

bingo, you have a calcium issue- coco scavenges it. light warrior needs no additional coco.
if you continue to use it, add calmag plus to your regime.

[criom]

besides calmag plus is there any cheaper alternative to get calcium back in the soil?

i am completely out of money for the month from buying fungicides/sprays.

one problem though....another plant was put directly into lightwarrior/ocean forest and suffered the worst rust/black spot of them all. i couldnt even get a picture of it because it died so fast. serenade and sulpher had no effect on it whatsoever, whereas the serenade works on the plants in coco.

so im not sure the coco is exactly the problem although im sure it isnt helping much from what you say.


so any ways to get calcium into the soil aside from calmag, and pouring milk on them? ;)

[stinkyattic]

bone meal, but it's pretty 'hot' for seedlings.
Hm. Sounds like something ELSE in the light warrior/FFOF is locking out micros. FFOF is way too 'hot' for seedlings of many strains, and if your strain is already a light feeder, that's a culprit to look at. Light Warrior has a lot of coco in it too from what I understand.
I'd start seedlings in a seedling starter mix, or Happy Frog with some added perlite, or rapidrooters if you are very cautious. They have the same microorganism as Serenade added at the factory.

That is not actually Black Spot Fungus. That's a nasty disease that affects roses and other thorny cane plants in hot, wet weather.

[criom]

that sounds correct, first time using ocean forest. im used to light warrior and the regular FF potting mix, so i assumed it was just as good to use as ive heard great results from other people.

they were started in rapid rooters as i was trying to be as cautious as possible with a new strain.

what is the name of this "hot and nasty" disease that i have here then?

originally it looked like that in the picture, then the spots became alot darker. now it seems to have evolved into rust issues, or maybe its just one problem fighting off another.

about the serenade soil drench though, do i want to just lightly cover the top layer of soil and then water as normally?
or add serenade directly to the gallon of nute/water?


ive heard of someone using serenade directly into his hydro reservoir


also: while trying to macguyver something up today i noticed that a bag of regular FF potting soil (was on sale for 5$!) contains hydrated lime and oyster shells for balanced ph.
could i make a tea with small amounts of the soil added to try and get some calcium from that back into the soil of my problem plants? or would that be a trivial amount


thx very much for your continuing help

[stinkyattic]

No name, just a lockout.
Serenade can be added to your nute solution which has no nutes yet.. lol. But YOU DON'T HAVE FUNGUS. It's just the nutes. REally.
You're going to have a hard time making a tea of oyster shell or lime, even harder trying to get it right so as not to burn the plants.
Concentrate on watering at correct pH, to the point of runoff but allowing the soil to dry between waterings, and as soon as you see the 4th set of ADULT leaves unfolding, get on it with a WEAK dose of a COMPLETE fertilizer. 1/4 what teh bottle says, and work up as more leaves appear.
I don't know what else to tell you. The overly-complex soil mix hurt you; next time, keep it simple. You may have noticed that retail salespeople get paid to sell you stuff from their store. You don't always need it. The first time my local hydro shop guy said 'You don't need that' I was like DUUDE did he REALLY just say that? OMG! Word!

[criom]

alright i will try adding serenade to some distilled and keep the ph as best as possible

im usually not talked into buying things but i got the coco more from what forums said then what salesperson did




they usually tell me what not to buy like the odorsok...peroxide "liquid oxygen" stuff...co2 boost....lumateks....

[stinkyattic]

co2 boost= way overpriced
odorsok= :( I like mine! It's a great size for a hobby grow!

You know that distilled water will not help you? It has NO Ca IN IT!!! Unless you run calmag, do NOT use distilled or RO water; use tap. And Serenade won't help, because it's not a fungus... *sigh...

[criom]

im glad the odorsok works for you, it seemed like it had potential


distilled water may not help me but its all i have because last week they issued a "boil" warning for the tap water and im not about to pour that on my plants to give them ebola.


also ive been thinking about what you said regarding this not being a disease and being due to the conditions.

well there are 5 other plants in the same soil mix that have never suffered any symptoms like this or any problems whatsoever.


and you say serenade wont help. and yet...

its the only thing helping. literally the plant looks a million times better 8 hours after i spray with it. probably sooner but i try not to disturb anything for a while after.


so im not really sure if it is the coco now and a cal problem only. there is definitely something that is being killed off by the serenade in some of the pots that are effected.


so its not a fungus, but serenade is killing whatever it is.

*sigh.. :o

[stinkyattic]

You MUST add calmag to distilled water. No choice on that. Or boil your tap water.

[criom]

screw tap water :mad:

im getting calmag today, found a quart for 10

will report back with results :blueknife:

[stinkyattic]

Awesome! That stuff is SO useful.

[Opie Yutts]

I probably wouldn't chime in here but I was asked to. You can't get much better advice than what you'll get from stinky. I disagree with the notion that you can't put a small plant in a big pot, but other than that I don't know what I can add. I've done a little experimenting lately, and the cuttings I've started in 3 gallon pots are doing much better than the ones I put in pint pots, and have been doing so from the beginning. I planted them about a month and half ago, and the ones in the bigger pots just now look like they might need their first drink. They are also about twice the size of the ones I put in the small containers. (Identical conditions otherwise.) It's about time to put the small plants into bigger containers, and I'm wishing I would have just started with big ones. Please note that I am in the minority here, but my experiences are real.

Other than that, here's what I do with my soil plants, and I can't recall ever having a failure except one baffling case in about 6 years.

I use the best quality potting soil I can reasonably find and add 20-30% perlite. For starting seedlings and cuttings, I'll often get soil designed specifically for that, or add about 10% vermiculite and/or peat for moisture retention. No fertilizer for about a month, depending on the vigor and variety of the plant. After 5 nodes have shown they should be able to handle some grow nutes at 1/8 or 1/4 strength. Gradually increase during each feeding to full strength. Thoroughly saturate the soil at planting with nothing but water and a few drops of B1 supplement PH'd to 6.6-6.9. PH is important, but most potting soil should be close enough at the start. When I water, I feed about every other time. I try to look at my plants at least once per day, and I only water if I notice the beginning of wilt. It's important your soil completely dries out between waterings. Air is just as important in the root zone as water. Ventilation is also important, but not critical how it's done. Just make sure air is exchanged, and your foliage gently rustles in a breeze at least some of the time, more is better. Top once or twice if you want em bushier.

In summary: Do what stinky says.

[stinkyattic]

I've been thinking about why Serenade would help with a Ca lockout. And I came to this possible conclusion:
Since Serenade is packaged as a LIVE culture of B. subtilis, it stands to reason that it is packaged in a medium that is ideal for their survival 'on the shelf'. This very likely includes an agent to buffer pH in the range that they like best, which, since they are a soil bacterium, would be at the same level your plants like in soil.
Just a hunch.

[criom]

Opie - thank you for your comments, have saved them in an everlong text file of tips i steal from various forums. good advice

attic- i think you may be right about the ph, i just gave up spraying them with serenade because it would be hopeless to keep doing that all the way through the veg and flower cycle.

i ended up getting calmag plus but before i even watered them with that they already stopped rusting and spotting.

maybe the rootzone finally dealt with the extra coco in the soil and recovered? i dont know but its a good thing to have anyway.

could i have used unsulphered molasses instead of calmag to help with this issue? im just asking in case someone else poor reads this and has to try some off the grocery shelf 2$ solutions.


while i was buying the calmag + the local shop guys gave me a free 4 oz bottle of mayan microzyme. im bubbling it right now with the molasses i bought anyway and im sure this will also help alot with any ph/coco problems going on down there.

since there were no directions on the bottle i called Humboldt to get some help and they said serenade contains over 700 strains of B. subtilis and that if i wanted i could spray with mayan one week and serenade the next as foliar or soil topping and they would get along just fine and probably devour anything that wasnt supposed to be there.

neway the two plants that were doing the worst have now recovered mostly with some cabbage looking leaf sets, im assuming thats due to the serenade spraying but at least its growing.

have either of you ever used mayan microzyme, possibly with calmag +?

im curious as to what effect it has and there isnt a ton of information out about it except for alot of people saying they are going to try it someday.


thx for the help again!
:1baa:

[stinkyattic]

I've never run the Mayan. The name 'microzyme' suggests it is a combintation of enzymes and soil beneficials- interesting. I have been happy with ALL beneficials that I have used. After all, they are tough to fuck up! :D

The molasses won't make a substitute for a mineral supplement (calmag, silica blast, epsom salts, etc) but does contain not only iron and potassium, but also helps create a healthy environment for soil beneficials, and adds bulk and resin to maturing plants. Use it at 1 tablespoon per gallon any time you remember to, lol.

[criom]

Content in colonies per milliliter:
Plate count of aerobic bacteria and anerobic bacteria: a minimum of 300,000 CFU/ml. for each.

Microorganisms:
Primary: Azotobacter vinelandii and Clostridium pasteurianum.
Mayan MicroZyme is a 100% organic and ecologically safe bacterial-enzymatic complex with 24 species of soil microorganisms that will increase fertility while providing vital nutrients to all types of plants and crops.


only reason i mentioned molasses as a substitute is because it says on the back of the bottle that it contains 3% of calcium and 5% of magnessium.



i used to add like 3 tablespoons per gallon throughout the entire grow but that was a different strain and i dont want to fuck this up so ill prolly wait until flowering for the resin bulk like you say.


sort of unrelated: im using 1.5 gallon square pots now (7.5x7.5x8.5) and am wondering if i will need to repot them at all.
im going to go scrog without LSTing and the total plant height will probably be just over a foot, but intertwined with the screen of course.

i keep reading 1 foot per gallon, or 1 gallon per month, or 1 gallon per whatever.

whats your reccomendation in this case?


also: im still working on getting a water filter (60$ crystal quest one) but in the meantime is it faster to evaporate chlorine in a large bucket or just a normal gallon jug?
as in does the amount of surface area of the water speed up or help the chlorine evaporation at all or am i just asking for bugs to go swimming and die in a algae pond.

[stinkyattic]

Surface area is related to speed of any type of evap- but remember that city water is treated with chloramine and you aren't guaranteed to get it all out. Try bubbling it with an airstone, and also putting it in a warm place or in the sunlight. That should help, if anything would.

My recommendation for potting-up is spelled out in a sticky at the top of the 'basic' section called 'the importance of a continuous canopy' and the embedded link to a FAQ thread called 'why I should re-pot my plant'.

Where the heck did you find those pots? I'm looking for that EXACT pot!!! (my jealousy is eating me alive!!!)

[criom]

im not sure if im aloud to link to websites here but BGH carrys them as well as every shop in my area shouldnt be too hard to find.

last time i used them i got them for free from a normal garden store and asking them if i could go through their throw away pots by the dumpster.

i believe that my water is treated with chloramine, but i recently got a pur faucet filter and i think that might get most of it out. air stone is still stuck in the mayan microzyme for the next 2 days until its all grown up.

thx for the redirection to your posts but after reading them im still not sure if i should bother repotting in my situation. i guess ill just take alot of cuttings and let them go full cycle in the ones they are in.

had a crazy idea of just filling up the bottom of my tent with dirt and letting the roots grow out of the drainage holes and into the floor basically. i have a removable bottom on it so its all water protected but thatll be hell to clean up.



while looking further into water purification i found a crystal quest 3 stage one for 150$ that removes fluoride, bacterials, and all sediments/chloride crap. or im looking at a 140$ distiller which is also interesting. arg just thinking out loud. but since i want to work with microbial herds now i need a cheap source of clean water that i can just add calmag+ and nutrients to.

anyway plants are doing better and im gonna test out the PUR water on some other ones later today. wish there was some easy test to see if chlorine was still present (besides the 30$ one shot water tests)

[stinkyattic]

had a crazy idea of just filling up the bottom of my tent with dirt and letting the roots grow out of the drainage holes and into the floor basically. i have a removable bottom on it so its all water protected but thatll be hell to clean up.Shower drain pan. Protect your homebox liner- it isn't as burly as you need to hold a bed, and the roots will FUCKULATE the edge seams. You know how tree roots destroy concrete? Weed roots are nothing to scoff at, lol. If you go to elevated potting, you need to actually CUT the bottom of the pots off when it comes time to put them onto the bed or larger pot.

[criom]

ok well then you talked me out of that

dont wanna half to get a chainsaw out at this point (not for the pots anyway)