Lockout- Hard water, rain water, choices!

[Chronic Chrissy]

OK I'm officially back and man do I need help!

We moved last year and ran into so many problems with my new setup but ironed most of the kinks out. As usual with a new setup and strain there is a learning curve as you relize mistakes and stabilize the problem. I have narrowed it down and have discoved it to be the water.

So I'll tell you everything I know about my water source. It's well water, we live near a large lake that isn't the healthiest, but not biohazardous yet. The pH is at about 8-8.2. Using pool test strips my base ppm reading of my water is 500. I know there is an excess of Mg through an earlier observation.

Before I go into more details What I am looking for is a solution to my water problem, rain water is an obvious choice and a project that will get underway very soon. But while I wait for mother nature I need to know if there are any methods I can use to purify my water that won't harm my plants. We do have a water softener but we've already seen what the salty water does to my plants(oops).

I'm off to some major research, I will be back to create a more complete pictures, but will be on most of the night to answer any questions.

[JeffersonBud]

What about buy an RO unit that spits out 100 gals per day and buying some cal/mag plus to substitute?

[GreenLeaf420]

Reverse Osmosis Water or Bottled Water should fix you up Immediately. Being that you are staying with the well reverse is probably the only way to go to keep$$$ in your pockets. Instead of buying all that water.

[Chronic Chrissy]

Eventually a R/O is on the list but way out of budget right now. I wish we could trasport water but we are deep rural, and my grow is to large to supply that way.

It's rainy here so we plan to make use of that.

I would like to know more about distilling water, but I also wonder...
Could I use the reaction to my advantage by adding just enough sulfur to the water to remove the Ca then run the water through a filter to remove the precipitate. Does anyone know of any good literature about this.

Also what can I try to do in the mean time? I'm watering someone every day. Is it better to continue to feed my plants, or should I leave them on strait water 'til I find a solution.
FYI Even my young plants that aren't fed yet show signs of the white gypsum on the soil surface when it dries, so there must be trace amounts of sulfur in my water too.

Sorry to be so hasty but I have so much to read...

[GreenLeaf420]

Don't forget your calmag plus!!!
And test it for pH- rainwater often contains sulfuric and nitric acid in concentarions high enough to register low pH. This comes from combustion of fossil fuels in the area where your local weather systems originate. For example, upstate New York suffers acid rain from factories and city smog originating in the 'rust belt' on the south shores of the Great Lakes.


I don't know much about shocking a well; I always thought that was to treat for bacteria, which really don't affect your grow if you keep your 'zyme' products up to date and the res properly aerated.
If you get a sulfur smell, you will want to watch for signs of lockout from too much S in the water, but plants DO use some- it is not necessarily a deal-breaker for using your well water on a hydro grow, but something you need to be aware of and monitor.
You also need to be aware of the pH coming out of your well. You will need to set your reservoir in the correct range for hydro, whcih is 6.0 +/- ~0.3.

Hey I know your growing soil but she touches Sulfer here!!!

Check Out this thread http://boards.cannabis.com/basic-growing/150867-dear-n00bs-distilled-water-warning.html




I don't know much about shocking a well; I always thought that was to treat for bacteria, which really don't affect your grow if you keep your 'zyme' products up to date and the res properly aerated.
If you get a sulfur smell, you will want to watch for signs of lockout from too much S in the water, but plants DO use some- it is not necessarily a deal-breaker for using your well water on a hydro grow, but something you need to be aware of and monitor.
You also need to be aware of the pH coming out of your well. You will need to set your reservoir in the correct range for hydro, whcih is 6.0 +/- ~0.3.


Hey I know your growing soil but she touches Sulfer here!!!


Ahh. Sulfur in your well water. That's not great.
I would trust distilled or RO water over any bottled 'drinking water' and you will have to use CalMag Plus.
Set your runoff tray at a slant so it all drains to one corner and you can let it drain into a bucket. Standing water means fungus gnats... eww.

Good Luck you will get it you know your buisness!!!
I'm just breaking up a DRO setup and going to soil in 7 days I was going to use Pro Mix from LOWE'S $7.00 and Humus $1.89 4x12 bed 3 LR1000's with CO2 I need a good nute and flush scheule. I plan on using GH 3 part along With Hydrozyme Mothers Earth Tea B1 Carbload big bud and voodooJuice and Clearex for a flush.

Hey just a thought are you running CO2? If not yet when you turn it on it does change the chemistry of the water.... That's what I've seen.

GL420:jointsmile::jointsmile::jointsmile:

I would like to know as well being that I'm using tap but the PH is 7.3 The PPM is 130 yet I do get yellow spots which would mean sulfer

Hope you don't mind the quotes Stink

[Chronic Chrissy]

Actually I'm not growing soil anymore. New house new setup. It's a perpetual harvest by the way. 65 day white rhino, two in and out every 3 days, Three separate growing areas sorted by plant size. My clones root then go into flower at 5-6".

No CO2

Kind princess turned me on to Coco and I love it. It is cheap, sterile, pH balanced and it comes in bricks that expand in water to over 50L. I pay $3.99 a brick and mix it 9/1 with perlite. The consistancy is great, and it evenly distributes the water so you have no dry pockets. It also rehydrates much better than soil if you let it dry out, and flushes clean. It's made to be reusable but I need to get more control before I think about that. I'm just in 2gl grow bags(I love grow bags) now but I've designed custom ebb flow tables and am waiting on my brother to get off his ass.

As for My nute line, I love advanced nutrients, especially for the conpatibility between all the products. Needless to say my nute schedual is out of wack and wonky, but normally I use Iguana Juice, carboload, Sensi Cal/Mg, big bud, bud blood, and voodoo juice, and grotek final flush because I have it. But I took out my senior chemistry book and calculated out all my individual nute ratios to keep all nutes on the low side of the optimal range. At some point I can post all those calculations, or at least a table of the outcomes.

[Chronic Chrissy]

Check this out!
Dripworks - Hard Water Magnetic Water Conditioning (http://www.dripworksusa.com/store/magnets.php)
It's a magnet that apparently removes minerals from your water.
I'm not sure how well it would work mind you, but it's just the kind of idea that would be nice if it did work.:jointsmile:

Later...

But wait, where do the minerals go?

[stinkyattic]

Are you certain of the composition of the precipitate?
Do you pre-rinse your bricks, and what brand are they?
You can build a solar desalination kit that could provide you with a cleaner water source; they use solar desal on a large scale in Israel but with some ingenuity you could build a small one with a pump, reservoir, evaporation area (2L soda bottles?) and condenser. Or catch the water off your ac or dehumidifier. It's distilled; just make sure it doesn't have metals dissolved in it.

Try switching to a hydro-organic nute like Canna that buffers in a good range already and isn't composed of chemical salts that are likely to recombine.

Look into humic acid sold as 'Soil Syrup' and other trade names, which also prevents recombination of fert salts.

Switch to a fertilzer formulated for hard water. They do exist.

Nice to see you again.

[Chronic Chrissy]

Are you certain of the composition of the precipitate?
Do you pre-rinse your bricks, and what brand are they?
You can build a solar desalination kit that could provide you with a cleaner water source; they use solar desal on a large scale in Israel but with some ingenuity you could build a small one with a pump, reservoir, evaporation area (2L soda bottles?) and condenser. Or catch the water off your ac or dehumidifier. It's distilled; just make sure it doesn't have metals dissolved in it.

Try switching to a hydro-organic nute like Canna that buffers in a good range already and isn't composed of chemical salts that are likely to recombine.

Look into humic acid sold as 'Soil Syrup' and other trade names, which also prevents recombination of fert salts.

Switch to a fertilzer formulated for hard water. They do exist.

Nice to see you again.

I'm very certain of the precipitate. I always use all my prepared nutes the day the are mixed, but 3 days ago I mixed a bit too much, so I left it in the bucket. When I went back yesterday to use it(after 2 days) it was couldy and there was a layer of milky precipitate on the top suspanded. I figured I the nutes separated and needed to be mixed back in. So I sat mixing furiousely for the longest time and even brought out my wisk and beat it 'til it was almost frofing(sp?). The white chunks were pin head size and always loosely reformed togather, like tiny clumps of drywal dust.

I buy organic grow bricks from Grotek, but no I don't flush them before use.

Iguana juice is hydro organic, so is voodoo jucie, and apparently carbo load(?)

[Chronic Chrissy]

So I'm looking at distilleries and trying to figure out how to distill the volumes of water I need and right next to me in my sunroom is our hot tub, which puts out so much water into the air when it is running.

Question
Are you left with pure water whenever you distil, are there certain minerals that travel with the water vapor? Could I run the air through that we exhaust throught an area to recondense it without transfering pool chemicals?

Sorry I'm running everything through my head right now as a possibility.

[stinkyattic]

Distilled water contains no minerals, but will pick up anything in the atmosphere- C, N, P, O. You'll have to use calmag and then adjust the pH if needed, as C, N, and P can form acids in the presence of water.

Just mixing your nutes won't re-dissolve insoluble salts.

You should be using hardwater formulas if your water is that hard. Your background ppm is outrageous; check the GH hardwater formula or the Canna one shown here:
Canna Hydro Vega 1Ltr Hard Water / Canna Fertilisers / Two part nutrients / AquaCulture Hydroponics (http://www.aquaculture-hydroponics.co.uk/product.aspx?categoryID=238&subcategoryID=299&productID=416)
*I've never ordered from that site; link is for the product description*

[Chronic Chrissy]

OK in the mean time I've pulled out my dehumidifier, but it really needs to be cleaned, we used it in the basement of our last house. I was curious though why the inside of the resivoir where the water is deposited would be so dirty if the water going in should be pure?

[stinkyattic]

Distilling your own water is a kind of last-ditch solution. Don't forget to check the EC of the DW coming out, because if it's loaded with metals, it's useless.

The water going in isn't 'pure'- it has as I said picked up atmospheric contaminants, yes, actually NPK, and created a decent environment for algae and bacteria to thrive.

HARD WATER NUTES!!! (repeat after me) HARD WATER NUTES!!! :D

[Chronic Chrissy]

I'm on last ditch situation for right now. I need something to do right now because at 1pm my daughter takes her nap and I have plants that need to be watered. It will probably be a few weeks before I can replace my nutes. Not to mention the funds really aren't there right now. So I need to come up with something that is better that what I have going right now, I'm looking for the better of bad ideas.

[stinkyattic]

Duly noted. Try to fabricate an all-plastic passive-solar still, then, if you can. And when you get enough water, do a GOOD flush of your pots. Actually, I'd flush them through real well just with your tap water dropped down to pH 6.3, just to remove any buildup you have already, and then a light feeding with your nute solution. If you have a micro supplement, you can mix that up weak and, again, LIGHTLY, do a foliar feed to try to combat the micro lockout you are seeing.

Edit: changed thread title to get other input on situation and clarify what it is

[Chronic Chrissy]

Crazy question. How do I change my thread title, and what should I change it to?

The plants were just flushed 2 weeks ago and have been given 1/4-1/2 strength feed at about 362-725ppm. Would it be better right now to water with pH tap water and exclusively foliar feed(I really need to brush up on foliar feeding again)? A whole flush takes me about 5-6 full days to do properly since I have a toddler, and I have so much on my plate this week.

[stinkyattic]

I changed it so it would get more responses. I fyou want it to read differently, post that in the thread and I'll change it. Mods can do that.

Foliar feeding will help with the micronute lockouts, but you're really going to need to keep giving your regular ferts with the water. I don't know what else to tell you. Your tap water sucks. You have to either change the water source or change the nutes to correct this.

[Chronic Chrissy]

Oh I guess these are two options for a water source too, but probably not the best. I live right next to a large lake, and I also have a fast moving, super cold, clear creek, that comes out of the bush untainted by people. There are aparently alot of aquifer(sp?) around here. Under ground springs that push up above the earth. Is this an option?

[stinkyattic]

Spring water from an underground aquifer would likely have similar properties to well water from the same geologic region. It's worth checking, but don't get your hopes up.

Lake water may have a higher proportion of rain as the source, and is worth looking into out of desperation- next time you go by, stick your EC meter in the lake and see if you get a reading below 300.

[Chronic Chrissy]

I doubt the lake would be a good choice and I should have known better than to post it as a opitionNo offense but the Devils Lake Project has flooded our main river and lake here with american's shit. The creek however is swollen with rain, it has been so wet this spring, and doesn't run through any populated area.

How do I change my the title of my thread?

[stinkyattic]

How do I change my the title of my thread?Refer to post#17. What do you want it to read?

[rhizome]

Can you do an A/B extraction to pull some of yer impurities?

IE- take source water, pH- to like 4,filter, then pH+ to like 10, filter,then pH- back to desired, filter, add nutes, season to taste?

You can shake a lot of crap out of solution this way- old crank cook trick.

[Chronic Chrissy]

Can you do an A/B extraction to pull some of yer impurities?

IE- take source water, pH- to like 4,filter, then pH+ to like 10, filter,then pH- back to desired, filter, add nutes, season to taste?

You can shake a lot of crap out of solution this way- old crank cook trick.

Filter it through what? I've never had a water issue before. But I will say I would much rather find a way to replace the water than to replace the nutes. Not that my specific nutes are that important but because I can easily see other problems developing in the future.

I was looking at maybe something like this for the not so far future
water purifier - White Baked-Enamel Model 100 (http://www.h2olabs.com/store/pc-14-2-white-baked-enamel-model-100.aspx)
or maybe this
Dripworks - Hard Water Magnetic Water Conditioning

Then I think it is time to start designing and building a distillery that can meet my needs.

[JeffersonBud]

If you are going to spend $149.00 on that filter, then whats $200 on an RO unit?

[Chronic Chrissy]

If you are going to spend $149.00 on that filter, then whats $200 on an RO unit?

RO for $200, where?
Plus I've read that there is alot of wastage with a RO. Call me a hippi but every extra penny we get goes to living organically and green. Alot of the products on my wish list for when I start turning enough of a profit to stabilize our are gree, organic, earth friendly, and self sustaining investments

[stinkyattic]

Rhizome's got a good idea. You can literally FORCE minerals out of solution by taking advantage of the fact that they have different solubility levels at different pH levels.

You will go through a lot of up/down that way, but it's VERY clever.

You said earlier you were using a pool test kit for your pH test. Are you also using pool up/down?

JB is right... if you're going to spend ANY money at all, spend it on something that is proven to work.

[JeffersonBud]

High Tech Garden Supply (http://htgsupply.com/products.asp?categoryID=22)

$209 bucks plus s&h. Great company too. 100 gals per day is awesome

[Chronic Chrissy]

I use Groteks liquid pH tester. The pool test kit is just for the ppm. I was using proper hydro pH down(never needed pH up yet), But lately have been using vinegar. I started when I ran out of pH down and relized my pH stayed stable longer with the vinegar.

I like Rhizome's idea, but I'm not sure what kind of filter I would pass the water through. I don't have pH up and can't get it for a bit, but I could get a shit load of baking soda and vinegar in town, would that work? And what kind of filter would I need?

It's raining alot lately around here, and I was thinking of throughing up a tarp across the back yard and collecting it to drain in barrels, but I've heard conflicting things about rain water. I live in central canada and our rain systems usually come west across Alberta and Saskachewan, the mountains keep the rain from BC in BC. This winter I was using melted snow and ice and my first batch of plants did very well.

I take it collecting water that runs off your roof contaminates it.

As for the RO I think I need to understand more about it first before I exclude it. I know how osmosis works within the body, and know that the water is passed through a membrane, and the minerals are moved out across the membrane by flowing water(the wastage), but do you really only get 5% of the water back out, and where does the rest of the water go?

I have so much to search read and do but only a 3 hour nap to keep my plants going till I fix this problem.

[stinkyattic]

Coffee filter material should work.
Baking soda won't bring your pH high enough, nor vinegar, low enoguh.
Your rain systems should be relatively clean if they don't pass through a highly industrialized area. Our rain here in New England comes via the Rust Belt, including Sudbury ONT... lol... it's a bit on the acid side...
Roof runoff should not be bad unless you have a rusty tine roof. REmember, the rain is constantly rinsing your roof down. Wait until the rain has been falling for half an hour and then open up the inlet to your rain barrels. That will give dust and contaminants time to wash mostly away before collection.

You don't lose water with an RO system. They operate under different conditions than osmosis in plant or animal tissue, and are both effective and efficient. IF you can afford an RO unit, you are GOLDEN, and if you run it starting with rain water, the filters should last a lot longer between replacements since the EC of rain water is already quite low.

If you choose rain water, first test the EC, then bring it to 300ppm with your CalMAg Plus, THEN add the ferts, THEN check and adjust the pH.

[Chronic Chrissy]

Ok so I've emailed my wholesaler, to see what he can get me for RO. In the mean time they are getting plain pHd water .

[JeffersonBud]

Nice! You will love it. Not only will your plants be better off but you can take advantage of it as well for personal consumption. Fluoride is bad for you. RO is the only way to get it out of the water.

[Chronic Chrissy]

Nice! You will love it. Not only will your plants be better off but you can take advantage of it as well for personal consumption. Fluoride is bad for you. RO is the only way to get it out of the water.

I know it's so bad for you and so is chlorine. In the book "natural cures they don't want you to know about" by kevin trudaue he uses his RO unit for consumsion but also for his pool and hottub. I love having my hottub but can't stand the thought of all the toxic chemicals I'm soaking my body in, not to mention my toddlers.

But really, what is the wastage for one of these systems and where does it go?

[rhizome]

Ehh, little bit o' brine- less than 5% of input volume.

Ya just dump it, wherever ya feel good about dumping.

Don't feel bad about it- this shit'll just end up back in the water table anyway.

[Chronic Chrissy]

Ehh, little bit o' brine- less than 5% of input volume.

Ya just dump it, wherever ya feel good about dumping.

Don't feel bad about it- this shit'll just end up back in the water table anyway.

Only 5%, the site I read must have had it backwards because the said that you only end up with 5% Good water.
Well I definately have my choice of method now I need to figure out what to do in the mean time. The cheaper I keep it the sooner I can get my RO going.

[Chronic Chrissy]

Awsome news! I set out tarps last night before to rain started up again to catch the water. I just tested it and the pH is 6.2 and right around 0 ppm. I am comparing colors on a strip but the colors match exactly. I don't have a whole lot of water right now, about enough for everyone for the next watering and maybe some extra, but we are going to have more rain this evening. I'm also having some city water brought out for me which I'll have to test when it gets here, and let sit out to get rid of the chlorine.

So here are my questions.

After my plants being so shocked for so long(their whole life). What should be my priority use for the rain water, and what should I used the second rate city water for? I was thinking Flush with city water as many as I can and feed with rain water and nutes.

And what concentration to I want to use for my nutes when I do go to feed them first off? They really need the nutes they are showing def for but I don't want to burn them.

Next question is which plants would benifit most from being treated first? All my plants are three days apart in all stages. I'm making sure all the new clones and plants start out right, but do I want to try and fix the late flower ones and work my way back to the early flowing stage to try to save the harvest, or start with the early flowering ones -> the late flowering ones so they have more time to correct themselves? I'm just worried the late ones are to far gone to help them much.

I have about 3 days till the next major watering.


*Stinky can you change my thread name to water qaulity choices to mend lockout or something like that?

[stinkyattic]

The Cl evap thing is kind of a myth... Chloramine is what they're using now, and the levels needed to harm plants would harm YOU too, lol! Go ahead and use it for your flushing as-is.
Use the rain water like RO: Add CalMag and bring it to 300ppm. Then add your base nutes- Start at half the recommended dosage, and keep your total ppm around 800 to start. Then pH to your coco range.
You're going to be using rain or RO a lot I'll bet, so this is the time to start learning how it works, and testing to see how high you can take the total ppms without tip-burn.

[Chronic Chrissy]

Fuck I keep telling H that I need an accurate ppm meter! Does he listen? NO! Now the bone head keeps asking me, "Why can't you do this, Why can't you use that water?..." And I keep telling him that maybe we could, but I don't know because I don't have a PPM METER! Now he's bitching because it will cost just as much for the RO unit we are looking as as it does for the meter that can let him figure it out the cheap way. hahahaha. He's tired of the "It costs something to get something" line and is really trying to get me to cut corners but I keep telling him and telling him, and then he wonders why things start going wrong. hahahaha

Seriously I'm so stressed right now it's great to lighten up a bit.

ETA Don't lie to yourself Chrissy you've been stressed out for the last 6 years non-stop! The end is so close now! Smoke another and suck it up!

[Chronic Chrissy]

Oh yeah who should be my first priority? Young or old? It might take me a week to get through this flush.

[inbud]

thanks for putting this link in a calcium question thread i had. i learned a bunch. gonna check out those hard water nutes. thanks agian.
inbud
i got a grow going now, and i dont think the water is presenting a problem now. the purple from last year was the type of plant i had.
inbud

[Chronic Chrissy]

I finished the flush in three days. The most shocking thing was how brown the water was from the recently transplanted clones that had never been fertilized. After I flushed all the flowering plants got 1/4 nutes in RO water. Some got their second watering today, I flushed 1gl of water through the 1 gl pots to check the conditions and flush any unused nutes from the soil then fed at 1/2 strength. The plants are perking up and the new growth is getting a healthier green tint back. Some of the yellowing leaves have recoved enough to keep from dying and are now a pale yellow green color. The vegging plants and mothers are doing well to and while I have missed the last two sets of plants to go into flower I expect by next week my stronger plants can get the cycle going again.

Thanks for all the help.

[stinkyattic]

Don't forget your calmag! :D

[rhizome]

Don't forget your calmag! :D

We've all gotta chip in and buy you the tee-shirt.

[stinkyattic]

Here's ten e-bucks, make it happen! :D
(I like raglan/softball style. Regular tees fit me oddly)

[GreenLeaf420]

I've read the whole thread. I have a question on my behalf please. My pH tap is 8.1 -8.2 it is city water. When I check it with a TDS meter it reads only 30. My issue is all the PH down it will need and the salt build up. I switched from GH to AN. My god what a difference. 2 drops VS a 1/8 tsp. Just a tip to anyone using GH PH down make the switch you will be very happy....

What supplements do you think I should add to the water other then PH down? Should I be really concerned with this or just keep on keeping on? I'm growing in soil what do you think is a good PH to run 6.3?

Thanks for any help Great Thread:thumbsup:

GL420:jointsmile::jointsmile::jointsmile:

[stinkyattic]

Soil ph= 6.7 +/- 0.2
If your hardness is 30, your ionic strength is very low, and you don't need much pH down to change it significantly. Salt build up is not going to come from that amount.
Run CalMag if you see even the tiniest hint of Ca def. Personally, I'd run it right from the start, at minimal dosage, in a soil grow using very soft water.

[Chronic Chrissy]

Incase you want to check in on the plants it won't take long for my grow log to be up to date
http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/157202-new-location-new-strains-new-adventures-new-problems.html#post1872065