nutrient def???

[allrollsin21]

Hello good peeps.

I am troubleshooting what i think is a calcium deficiency. I think the cause of this is because i have not been adding calmag to the girls. I am in soil in 4 G pots. I have well water that is at 120-130 ppm. I am running Botanicare pro bloom soil, Karma, and sweet. They are about 3 weeks into bloom and this is what i am finding. Starting from the lower branches Leaf edges have brown small spots along them. The tips also have turned rusty/brownish on the bottom half of the plants. Over the last week it has been creaping from the bottom towards the top. I am concerned. I think it is because there is not enough calcium in my tap.
I checked the PH of the soil by the run-off method described in Stinky's sticky. The only difference is i used nutes instead of plain PH water. The nutes were Ph'd at 7.0 and the runoff came out at 6.9. Also the same PPM readout of 1500 came out the bottom of the pots. So does anyone familiar with these nutrients think that i should be adding calmag to well water that has a ppm of 130???
I am going to step outside and snap a few shots which hopefully can help all you wizards and wizardesses (witches) give me some advice. Thanks for your helpness.
Also i am in FF ocean soil with 30% perlite. I have really just begun nutes in bloom. I am using all botanicare products, and at half strength. I have fried my plants previously using it at full strength. If ya'll think it is calcium should i use the calmag at full strength, and can i also foliar feed with it? It does not say on the bottle.

[grey1223]

You can foliar spray with 1tsp of baking soda to a quart of water. If indeed that's your problem this will give a quick fix. I've used CalMag at full strength and half strength with same results. But I'm wondering why you have 1500ppm of runoff??? Sometimes this measurement is affected by any solids you've given, like compost teas. You can filter them out with a coffee filter. Otherwise it seems to me maybe a lockout as opposed to a def. I would ph my nutes at 6.5, it's the best ph for soil.

[allrollsin21]

Thanks grey. I had a problem last grow when i sprayed with Baking Soda. I probably used too much. I think 1 tbl a quart instead of 1 tsp. Any how my whole garden was white from the residue. Sad but in retrospect, funny.
The runoff ppms was 1500. What i poured into the plant to check the PH was nutrients at 1500 ppm. So the samer thing came out the bottom as what went in. Correct me if i am wrong, but i thought that meant that there is no buildup of salts in the soil, or else it would have come out higher than what i was pouring for the test. I hope that makes sense. I am relatively new at all this so my explanations may be senseless.

ps. I may be new but i have experienced...mites..mildew...hermaphrodites...see ds...lockout.... and the list goes on. Hows that for a lot of experience ina short amount of time...I wont bore ya'll with the rest.

[allrollsin21]

oh yeah by experience i mean painfully heartbreaking tear jerking stress building experience. That kind. Good thing i have had bud and a great batch of my own recipe, Ganja Gooballs, throughout it all.

So for all i am certain my diagnosis is likely off target one way or another. Anyone else care to take a stab at it. many thanks!!

[Weedhound]

I think you should be flushing.....ppm of 1500 in runoff is too much.....i don't even use 1500 ppm in my hydro setup.

[grey1223]

I was thinking the high runoff is because the plants aren't able to absorb the nutes because of lockout. A good flush and give them about 1000 ppm and you should see a diff in few days I believe.

[allrollsin21]

OK, flush sounds like the consensus. Thanks guys.
If i mix together a nutrient solution and pour it into a plant, the runoff that happens as i am feeding the 1500 solution, should be the same as what was poured into the plant? I am not sure but i think so. I know that 1500 is high and the reason i went with it was because i had only foliar fed for the few weeks before and they looked deficient, So i used EXACTly half strength of the back of the bottle recommendations for the Bloom, Karma, Calmag, and sweet. It is frustrating that half strength could be TOO MUCH.:(

[stinkyattic]

Those plants are potassium deficient- probably locked out.
Flush and make sure you are giving enough K and that the pH is around 6.7. There shouldn't be a problem if your soil pH is correct and you do not have excess ferts in there.
Don't do it by ppms; do it by plant appearance. They all feed at different rates.

[allrollsin21]

Thanks stinkster, your a real brass monkey. I was using ppms to try and prevent over fert. It seems that even at 1/2 strength,botanicare products, bloom, sweet, calmag, and karma, is reading at 1500 ppms. The feedback i am receiving from those kind enough to offer some guidance say that is too high.
Anyone doing Botanicare in Soil??

Would 1/4 strength be better? I was told add a 1/4 strength on watering cycle to help reduce salt buildup. Just when i think i have a clue, i find myself with pages of questions and much uncertainty.

Thanks all for attempting to help me do no harm to the ladies!

[PlantHeadJ]

FF ocean forrest is a pretty hot soil to begin with. If possible check the run off of the soil before use. In my exp botanicare needs cal mag. I just plan on using it. Also do what stinky said.

[allrollsin21]

Planthead yes i think i will check the actual strength-hotness of the FF. It has a hot reputation but would be nice to know how hot. I usually won't feed for approx two weeks after transplanting into fresh FF. I appreciate the idea.
I have been hesitant to flush because the deficiency was showing after i had not fed for a while. Then i fed a few days ago at 1500 and now i am not sure if they are getting better or not. I am going to flush tomorrow just to be safe since all you experiened suggest it. I will update this as to what happens:thumbsup:

[PlantHeadJ]

The Botanicare feed schedule for soil gardens is way off. If you follow it to a T you will wind up with 2000 ppm. If you half it you're at 1000 ppm. I just put out this fire with a friend who was using that schedule and burned everything. Mix up your solution at 1/4 power and check your ppm. If your soil is hot then you can see how if you 1/2 it then the active soil will raise that number. I would take the ppm of the runoff after 20% flushes through. Write that number down. Take the ppm of your water. Now add those together and then mix your nutes to be sure that you don't get past 1100. I hope that was clear if not I will re write. Good Luck!
Oh and check out WeedHound's botanicare sched!

[Weedhound]

Depending on the size of the plant I use even LESS nutes with FFOF soil. It seems pretty complete to me.

[allrollsin21]

hello. This is my follow up, it has been 8 days from the flush. I flushed with ph 6.7 water and did about 10-12 gallons a pot. The plants are in 4 gallon containers.
I am seeing lots of yellowing of the lower leaves, and a few of the girls have a very light green tone throughout. I am on day 26 bloom.
I checked the PH before the flush and the runoff was at about 6.9 ph. The plants have been performing well up until about 14 days ago. Not sure if the yellowing is a lack of nitrogen, but it seems a little early for the amount happening. Anybody have an idea they would like to share? Thanks for your help so far people, although these plants are a bit stressed they are the nicest grow for I to date. The flowers are looking delicious. And ya'll have helped make this happen!:thumbsup:
These are all pictures of THC BOMB X WHITE WIDOW. Then a picture of God Bud. The God Bud looks to be the healthiest of the litter. I love the look of the plant.

[allrollsin21]

a few thoughts of my own. Maybe:
The flush was not done excessively enough, not enough water.

Or is it possible that feeding them 1/2 strength after the flush may have been too many nutrients? I think i read somewhere that the plants become more sensitive after all that water running through them.

Or, one thing that concerns me is the moisture that is in the space. I am using a black plastic tarp to manipulate the photoperiod to 12 12. When i take it off in the mornings, a lot of condensation is covering the inside. The humidity can reach 80% in the tank, with the tarp on. This being in a VERY dry part of the country. Although i could see this causing problems, i know a few folks with identical setups and they dont run in to high humidity issues.

Lastly could be that after the flush it rained for three days. So the pots were pretty moist for about 5 days. I put them up on blocks as weedhound once suggested that to help speed drying. But when the air is filled with so much moisture there is nowhere for it to go, especially at night with the plastic sheeting on it.

These could also have nothing to do with it, maybe they are just still K deficient?:hippy:

[allrollsin21]

Ok well i took a soil ph sample today. I ran through water ph'ed at 6.7 and the runoff was 7.2
I guess that means the soil ph is too high. I have no idea how it got there as i have been ph'ing everything.

On a different plant the water got ph'ed to 7.0 and the runoff was 7.0.

Also the ppms going in were 110 and coming out they were 320

for plant two they were 130 going in and 430 coming out.

Where do you folks think this leaves me? What action should be taken? Confusion is settling in...

[allrollsin21]

IS my predicaments explanation as confused as my head?:(

[stinkyattic]

It's confusing all right.
The photo angle is a tough one but your pots look quite small. Soil chemistry is a bitch to troubleshoot in insufficient pot size. Larger pots with nice fresh cheap soilless mix will be good in your case; add extra perlite and drain holes to help with drainage if your weather is consistently rainy. That's where I would start, and it may well solve your problems. I'd also feed with only calmag and bloom on your next couple waterings. Bring your fert solution to 300ppm with the calmag FIRST, then add your bloom (I'd say only to 1000 total ppms for now) then set the pH at 6.5, then water it in heavily.

You are allowing rain to water your plants? Check the pH of the rain. It's not necesarily a bad thing; you should just be aware of it.
It sounds like you will need to drop the pH of your watering solution for that soil pH issue. One thing to consider is flushing with a weak solution of humic acid. If you can find Soil Syrup, one capful per gallon in your flush solution is really nice and automatically sets the pH to 6.8-6.9.

[allrollsin21]

Wow it sure is nice to have someone chime in with some experienced thoughts. Even if you said rip them out and start over...although that would make me cry:(

So they are in 4 gallon pots. The plants are about 3 ft tall. quite bushy some of them. Most were transplanted about a week before flower, so about a month ago. It is scary considering to transplant because they are trellised and packing on a bit of weight. But if it has to happen, it will. So you do suggest not using any FF ocean forest but instead a soiless mix...maybe something like sunshine #4?

It is not raining here. I am in the foothills and it rained for about 4 days but that was over a week ago, and its likely not going to rain for the next 4 months. Would using soil syrup as just a plain watering have the same affect or does it need to be a "flush"? Or could i use soil syrup in with a feed of calmag and bloom? Should I always add in the Calmag FIRST, then add in the other nutes?
YOu have already helped plenty so if i get no answers for these questions i am already stoked! Thank you loads of bushels!!!:jointsmile:

[stinkyattic]

Okay, your pots are probably big enough. Remember a gallon of dirt for each foot of main stem. A bushy plant needs a bit of a bigger pot. You can always slip a tub of dirt under there, put the plant, pot and all, on the surface, and cut the bottom of the pot right off like BOG used to do with his monsters.
I suggested the cheap soilless because you are already approaching harvest and it's time for something inexpensive and unfertilized.
Always add your calmag FIRST because you are just using it to make 'fake tap water' of 300ppm.
You can use humic acid supplements in your fert solution too, modestly; add them aafter the calmag but check the pH right before watering. I just like to flush with it personally, because really good quality nutrients contain it anyway- the Canna line, BioBizz TopMax, and Pure Blend Pro all have it as a component.

[allrollsin21]

Thank you CultiModerVatorAtor.

I think my action will be to give a very thorough dosage of calmag-bloom, ph'd to 6.5. Really water it in there. Because of the plants overall light green, and getting lighter, i want to feed them for sure.
I have a sweet ph meter and it has been helpful. BUT, Have you heard of ph fluctuating from the same source. I swear my well water has a ph of its own, a changing ph. Somedays it is 7.5 others it is 7.0. sometimes out of the hose it is 7.8 other times 7.1.

DO YOU RECOMMEND LETTING THE WATER SIT AFTER IT IS PH'ED? to make sure it does not change and is stable. Why would it stay at 6.7 for a few minutes then drop or rise? Or am i trippin?

That is all the backlog of confusion i have. your participation has cleared up much. If you were a tree you'd be a sequoia. A big umms! :thumbsup:

[stinkyattic]

Use it as SOON as it's mixed.
Yup, well water is subject to seasonal and weather related fluctuations in pH and mineral content.
How many days to harvest do you have left? Plants SHOULD turn paler towards harvest; they are using up stored N and chlorophyll will degrade over time and not be replaced in its absence. If you have less than 3 weeks to go, don't worry abotu the paleness unless you notice other symptoms like dullness, spots, red central leaf vein, or cupped over leaves.

[allrollsin21]

They are finishing their first month in a couple days. There is some spotting but it may just be left over from the earlier K deficiency. Those leaves are dying off. No cupped over leaves. Since it is a little early for the overall yellowish-green of the plant, would you recommend foliar feeding with anything? I have been going a little crazy with the foliars. it has been a cycle like this...mon-nitrozime, tue-probloom,wed-smc, thur-liquidlights,........and back through again. Is that excessive? Because of the week of wet weather i felt i needed to get them some foods, and since they started with spotting and yellowing i just thought they needed it more. I am not wanting to suffocate them but its so dry here that i think it dries right up.

[stinkyattic]

SMC will form a barrier against bugs and water loss- and I suspect against foliar sprays.
I'd seriously just stick with calmag and bloom base for a couple feedings and see if the problem stops spreadiing.

[allrollsin21]

Sounds good. Thanks. I am on page two of your IBL log and think i may need to call in sick today!
I will post picks of my ladies when they are finished!!