Isreal or Palestine?

[Dream of the iris]

Hey folks. Well I've read and watched a lot of stuff on what the whole conflict is over there and after watching it my opinion changed. I used to be in full fledged support for Isreal and really scorned Palestine but upon careful analysis I've come to the conclusion that both Palestine and Isreal are horrible. I'm not going to go into details as to why because I wanna leave this up for discussion but I was just wondering if everyone else on this forum strongly support Isreal just as much as most American's do. I mean today at my school I saw this event that is going to be held in support of Isreal. This as well as the other propaganda revolving around the issue was mind boggling to me because I really feel that most people at least in America really don't know whats going on over there and simply support Isreal based only on the fact that Isreal doesn't commit suicide bombings and because their jewish, which is a religion that most westerners can identify with at least more so than Islam. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying I'm for supporting Palestine nor am I in support for Isreal I just think both sides are completely wrong at this point. Anyway give me you're guys thoughts...

[Innominate]

The Is-"rae"-L and Palestine conflict dates back to biblical times of Abraham's sons, Isaac and Ishmael, each representing Judaism or Islam. I'm not qualified for religious thought but I do believe the Assyrians were the first to invade Israel. It wasn't until Britain helped establish Israel and Palestine side by side that the Palestinians rejected and war is how it leads through the last 60 years, soon to be.

[texas grass]

this is how i feel

i dont believe isreal is the chosen people and my family thinks im crazy/insane/stupid cause i dont think they have the chosen right to heaven cause they are israeli.

america and europe kicked palestine out of their homes with gun point and gave all their possessions to israel because germany tried to comit genocide on them. if anything israel should have gotten german lands cause the genocide.

most people here blindly support israel because the bible said to or you go to hell

[DaBudhaStank]

I don't personally recognize the state of Israel, seeing as it belonged to the Palestinians first. But then, I live in the U.S., and we totally stole that shit from the Natives, so that makes me a huge hypocrite. They should just learn to share.

[Mr. Clandestine]

most people here blindly support israel because the bible said to or you go to hell

That just plain isn't true. There's only one prerequisite that must be ignored in order for someone to die the second death, and be eternally separated from God. And it has nothing to do with Israel. If you were to believe in the Bible, you'd also believe in the New Covenant that Christ made during the last supper:

"...Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." And then he took the cup and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sin. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I will drink it new with you in my father's kingdom." (Matthew 25:26-29)

In introducing this 'New Covenant', Jesus was referencing what was said in Jeremiah:

"The time is coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt(Ten Commandments), because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the Lord.

"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

The land of Israel doesn't belong to Israel, or Palestine for that matter, rather it belongs to God. If you're not a God-fearing person, then you can debate endlessly who is the rightful owner of the lands. That was also predicted in the Bible. If you believe the Bible, or the Qu'ran for that matter, then you'd also know that the land of Israel wasn't promised to Issac AND Ishmael... but rather Issac alone, through Abram (or Abraham):

"Abraham said to God, "Oh that Ishmael might live before You!' But God said 'No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him'" (Genesis 17:18-19).

Even the Qu'ran teaches that God blessed the Jewish people and exalted them about all nations:

We gave him Isaac and Jacob and bestowed on his descendants prophethood and the Book. We gave him his reward in this life, and in the life to come he shall dwell among the righteous. (Qu'ran/Sura XXI - The Prophets)

The claims of the Qu'ran that state now that "Mecca" belongs to Islam are contradictions of themselves, going back on original scriptures and claiming that the Jews no longer deserve the land because of disagreements amongst themselves. Forgive me for not looking up the exact Sura, but trust me, it's there. You can find it yourself if you'll just take the time to look.

Seeing that Islam plagiarized nearly all of their holiest of scriptures directly from Judaeo-Christian teachings - and then instead of omitting the contradictory scriptures, just let the contradictions stand - I say if anyone is entitled to the land based on the premise of faith, then it still belongs to the Jews. Even the most devout Muslims won't dispute this. They'll merely reiterate that Israel has, in fact, attacked and killed Arab Muslims, and their "holy war" entitles them to the land in its entirety. I don't agree with the killing on either side, and pray that it will stop. I've seen the atrocities committed by both sides, and it's not pretty. So much needless suffering, and all over a piece of land that both parties agreed was supposed to have been bestowed upon Isaac and Jacob.

Israel, after thousands of years of warfare and warring factions, doesn't belong to the Jews OR Muslims, but rather to God. But in terms of sovereignty, Israel belongs to the Jews. If you care to dispute that, then you could make the claim that it belongs to Britain. It wasn't "stolen" from Palestine, rather it was "acquired" just as many other lands have been in the past. If Israel should be forced to give back their lands under whatever premise a person can think of, then every other sovereign nation who has gained their independence through bloodshed should also do the same.

That's my Christian perspective. And you'd be foolish to call it "blind support" of Israel, seeing that Israel is NOT a Christian nation... yet.

[thcbongman]

I don't personally recognize the state of Israel, seeing as it belonged to the Palestinians first. But then, I live in the U.S., and we totally stole that shit from the Natives, so that makes me a huge hypocrite. They should just learn to share.

Personally I think they both have a rightful claim to the land and they should learn to live in peace. Unfortunately they are too many crazy zionists and jihadists in the region that it's impossible for it to be stable.

At the closest point when Yitzhak Rabin was president were both sides were even remotely close to peace. Then some crazy zionist kills him. Sometimes you have to wonder if they best thing for Israel and Palestine is to be occupied by another country. Perhaps giving them a reason to unite and work together.

[FreshNugz]

Sometimes you have to wonder if they best thing for Israel and Palestine is to be occupied by another country. Perhaps giving them a reason to unite and work together.

That would be terrible...likely World War 3. The last thing that would help is foreign occupation.

I hope I live to see peace b/w these people, because its terrible how even children are recruited in the fighting. The movie Death in Gaza shows this pretty well.

[valtrip]

watch a documentary called "occupation 101". Hopefully that should clear up a couple misunderstandings many of us have about the current conflict :jointsmile:

[texas grass]

Mr. Clandestine from everything i have ever been told by, baptist, cathloc, and preacher from bible belt all said, if you dont beleive exactly the text of the bible or the word of god you arnt allowed into heaven, so if israelis are the chosen people of god and you dont accept that, god wont except you under his law
and its not just the christians but all major religions are like that in having to believe exactly like they say.

[Mr. Clandestine]

Mr. Clandestine from everything i have ever been told by, baptist, cathloc, and preacher from bible belt all said, if you dont beleive exactly the text of the bible or the word of god you arnt allowed into heaven

Hey Tex,

I understand that Baptist pastors and Catholic priests can sometimes be a little too zealous for their own good, and they're also in a position that requires continued fellowship from their patrons. This, I'm sure, is why they may try to stretch the words of the Bible to suit their sermons. But the Bible doesn't teach that Zionist affirmation is the key to salvation, but rather by faith in Jesus only. We're saved by Grace, not by whose side we're on in the whole Zionist occupation in Israel.

In my earlier response, I threw in that if you believe what the Bible (or Qu'ran) has to say about the matter, then you'd believe that Israel was given to the Jewish people as a covenant between the descendants of Abraham and his son, Isaac. Even the Muslims understand this. But the debacle is now that Islam feels it has become the rightful owner of the lands for two reasons; one, inheritance through 'jihad', or "holy war." Two, to lay claims to the lands of Mecca. But even so, they believe that God gave Israel to the Jews, and are just now wanting to go against Gods will to fulfill their desires of turning Jerusalem into an entirely Islamic population. (Which is the supposed outcome of their 'jihad'.)

But, again, as a Christian, you don't have to side with Israel OR the acts of violence she has committed in the past. After all, this is going against what Jesus preached to his Jewish disciples, when preaching about peace and forgiveness. There's a BIG difference in blindly siding with them and their war efforts, and admitting that the lands were promised to the Jews by God. Remember, Islam once thought the same thing, too. The war isn't with Israel and Palestine, but rather with Israel and Islam. From my Christian standpoint, Israel is still an unrepentant nation, and if the Bible is true, this is still displeasing to God. Hence the reason for the continuing turmoil in the region. Sadly, unless Islam as a collective whole can stop making death-threats towards Israel, then Israel will always feel the need to retaliate against any foreign aggressors, including Palestine... their next-door neighbors.

But, nevertheless, you can still be a Christian and you CAN still enter into Gods good graces and NOT be supportive of Israel's military campaign. I am, and I'm not supportive of the killings. I think what your pastors and priests were trying to tell you was that if you deny the pact made between God and the Jews, then you might as well just deny the rest of the Bible, as the Bible is the infallible Word of God. You can still accept that pact, and denounce the atrocities being committed by the Israeli military without contradicting what's written in the Bible.

Take care. :jointsmile:

[valtrip]

The conflict is not about religion. It is about people who where thrown out of their homes and country or forced into ghettos with virtually any human rights. How would you feel if you were forced out of your house, had many of your family members killed, and were tossed out of your country without any of your possessions? I bet you cannot fathom the idea of someone taking over your country and expelling you because you are not among the "chosen people." Just because you are Christian or Muslim you suddenly do not have any right to live on land that your ancestors have been living on for thousands of years? Everything you had is gone especially your cultural identity for generations to come. The goal of most Palestinians is to live in peace with basic human rights. Israel capitalizes on the false notion that the majority of Palestinians want a purely Muslim controlled Jerusalem and neglect to show the attrocities Israel inflicts on the Palestinian people on a daily basis

[Psycho4Bud]

Just because you are Christian or Muslim you suddenly do not have any right to live on land that your ancestors have been living on for thousands of years?

How true, this was the land of Israel way before Islam was even a religion.

Have a good one!:s4:

[Dream of the iris]

yeah but I mean saying that is like saying the Native American's should reclaim their land. I mean yes it was wrong for Palestine to take over Isreal thousands of years and yes it was also wrong that Isreal took it back only decades ago but the bottom line is, it already happened and both people have lived there far too long to just up and walk away. For the Isrealies who came in back in the early 1900's it was simply a place for them to call it their new home but for the Isrealies who live in the 21st century this is their home and it always has been. Same for the Palestinians. The only way to solve this is if they can learn to live with a toloration for other religions, otherwise one will have to simply dominate and wipe out the other. Of course many people already feel this is happening but in fact its not to its fullest. Isreal is supressing the palestinians, but not completely wiping them out. But the problem the Isrealis have if they ever did feel the desire to completely wipe them out is the fact that Palestinians will fight to the death because essentially they want to die. There really is no easy solution. Either get along or die.

[boaz]

check out the bbc right now they are showing live from the Knesset in Jerusalem. check out the look on Condi, it looks like she's not quite ready to swallow the kool-aid. :D

[texas grass]

other than the bible, where does it say that israel ownes the land of 1948 border of israel

[Psycho4Bud]

So the "British Mandate of Palestine" was a good thing but the re-creation of Israel was bad? Where in historical maps is there a mention of "Palestine"? This region has been passed back and forth for thousands of years now. The "original" Palestine was created by the western world and lasted for 28 years....Israel has been there for 60.

Check out the timeline of that region and ask yourselves how far back in history you want to go to make the peace.
Imperial History of the Middle East (http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html)

Have a good one!:s4:

[thcbongman]

That would be terrible...likely World War 3. The last thing that would help is foreign occupation.

I hope I live to see peace b/w these people, because its terrible how even children are recruited in the fighting. The movie Death in Gaza shows this pretty well.

How would peace be acheived by any other means? They cannot peacefully coexist. Israel continues to strip Palestine of water resources. Palestinians continue to condone and implement terrorism in the region. They're like children, they have to be supervised for a little while, be guided.

At one time Germany had to be occupied. Look how it turned out.

[dragonrider]

Yes, Iris, both sides are wrong and both are right. It's a completely impossible situation. It's one of the places in the world where sworn enemies have an eqaul claim to the same land, and the people cannot seem to live in amongst eachother. The Balkans is like that too, and look where that has led --- war forever. You can never trace the rightful ownership back to one or the other party, because it has changed hands so many times. And you can never pin blame for the grievances either, because each atrocity by one side was preceded by one from the other, back and forth all through history.

The only hope for stability is either that one side will completely dominate the other (which almost never happens and is not something anyone likes to see anyway) or they will learn to forget the past and move forward together. The problem with that last one is that even if 99 percent of the people can do it, it only takes that one jihadist or zionist to start the fighting all over again. The last option is that both parties fight to the death...

[boaz]

Check out the timeline of that region and ask yourselves how far back in history you want to go to make the peace.
Imperial History of the Middle East (http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html)

:s4:

Very interesting. I guess if we really wanted to be fair about it, it looks like the Kingdom of Egypt had first claim to the whole coastline through Lebanon and on. Maybe we should just give it all back to Egypt.

I'm not sure if the graphics are completely to scale but it looked like even as The Kingdom of Israel was first emerging there seemed to be a strip along the southern coast, slightly larger and a little north of todays Gaza Strip, that was never occupied by the kingdom.

[dragonrider]

Very interesting. I guess if we really wanted to be fair about it, it looks like the Kingdom of Egypt had first claim to the whole coastline through Lebanon and on. Maybe we should just give it all back to Egypt.

I'm not sure if the graphics are completely to scale but it looked like even as The Kingdom of Israel was first emerging there seemed to be a strip along the southern coast, slightly larger and a little north of todays Gaza Strip, that was never occupied by the kingdom.

My favorite was the Hightit Empire --- a powerful empire founded by gravity-defying, firm-breasted Amazons. If your region is going to be dominated, let it be by Hightits.

[boaz]

My favorite was the Hightit Empire --- a powerful empire founded by gravity-defying, firm-breasted Amazons. If your region is going to be dominated, let it be by Hightits.


:S2:
how could i have missed that?? :D


oh yeah, speaking of crazy zionists . . anyone catch shrubs address to the Kenesset this morning? I did not know that the Pilgrims said a prayer to Zion when they first came ashore, but I do now. :stoned:

[Bong30]

How true, this was the land of Israel way before Islam was even a religion.

Have a good one!:s4:
Hey P4B


I know its easy math... you say Jesus was a jew. he was around im guessing about 0-37AD

Mohammed around 450AD

Im no math Major but i can figure that out....LOL


Here is the question. Why is Israel the only one that has to give up Land? What about egypt, syria, and the other states where the Palistines came from?

Ill answer that one.... Cause they hate jews, and Infidels, and want them gone They will do or say anything to wedge them out.

[Dream of the iris]

Because this whole conflict is particularily dealing with the time period after the Balfour declaration which basically decalred the establishment of Isael. Palestinians may have occupied those places before but the issue at hand right now is where they recently got kicked out of and that was what is known as today to be Israel. The Palestinians hate Jews but its not like it was with the Nazi's with no reason behind it. They hate them, especially the newer generation, because Israel basically isolated them into the slums and they consistantly bulldoze houses to seek out the terrorist who come over on their side and blow everything up. Now don't get me wrong I understand why Israel is doing these things because essentially they are scared of terrorists. However, doing these things is really only breeding more terrorists. What they need to do is back off keep the borders closed off but work with the leaders of Palestine to solve this problem because though its really easy to see Israeli people or Palestinian people to be the good and the bad guys, what everyone needs to realize is that its the Terrorists who are the bad guys and is ruining everything. I mean its a tough issue to solve but the bottom line is they either need to settle their differences and work together or suffer.

[boaz]

^ yeah, i agree. we all just want to see peace, there and everywhere.

i watched a really interesting film last week on the doc channel called The Other Zionists, filmed by this lady from Canada who, along with a group of other ladies (no dudes cause we would just cause confict ;) ) filmed as much as they could get away with all along the border checkpoints between Israel and Palestine. worth checking out if it comes back on if you want a grounds eye view of the life over there at the checkpoints.