'Redline's LED - DiY - Build' aka"GROW LIGHT"

[veggii]

Hi everyone I am veggii ;) I have been working on LEDs
and have been over in the Led Theory Thread and A little
bit ago REDLINE joined up and posted a awesome LED BUILD
I thought it deserved it own Thread :thumbsup:
I hope to keep working with Redline as his style is good.
His builds are simple $ cheap & practical you will like them too.
I am going to post a summary of redline's post's from the Theory thread. That should get everyone started and up to speed.
Hopefully Redline will get a chance to post more details from his
660nm array from his latest build. I plan to make a LED grow Light soon with the 660nmLedEngin, but I still am undecided on
my build design I was going to go with a Striplight, but might go Bricklight instead like Redline's light, cause of Heat issue's.
so here we go links:
http://boards.cannabis.com/1836703-post340.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1836799-post343.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1838664-post359.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1840397-post372.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1840423-post373.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1840887-post381.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1840921-post382.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1841514-post386.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1842013-post391.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1842303-post398.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1842308-post399.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1842393-post401.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1842580-post403.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1842593-post404.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1842601-post405.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1842617-post407.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1842630-post408.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1842693-post414.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1842707-post416.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1842710-post417.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1842906-post426.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1843079-post433.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1843084-post434.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1843085-post435.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1843093-post436.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1843128-post440.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1843225-post445.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1843228-post446.html
http://boards.cannabis.com/1843235-post447.html
wow alot of posts I hope didn't forget any
srry I don't know how to repost them individually
do you know how to post them individually???
His first Light Build used the K2 630nm and it worked great!
Here is the 660nm LED used in his second horticulture light build.
http://www.ledengin.com/products/5wLZ/LZ1-00R205.pdf
" wavelength graph chart below "

[veggii]

Redline , so you left off @ you were still in the middle of the build process for the 25watt 660nm Led Grow light.
Have you gotton it done ? how is the heat!?
I sure hope everything is working out as haven't seen you in over a week. :jointsmile:

I don't know why the plant chart is not posting proper

[veggii]

Hi,
I have a bit of free time today so I was going too try to
repost the thread better. But it seems the pics won't show up
on the post's.
You can see from the above plantchart.bmp pic that it is not posting. I am going too test a few more pics rite know.
If they don't post proper I will end this thread as it needs pic's :(

ok the pics are working its just the above plantchart that is'nt posting proper ;)

[veggii]

pg14
led info
The current through an LED is established by the voltage drop across it. But here is the tricky part.. the relationship is not a predictable constant and it is not a linear relationship. The voltage drop required to produce the desired current will vary from LED to LED even in the same bin. It will also change with operating temperature and age of the LED.

I have been designing,hand building and using high power LEDs to grow for almost a year. When I build an array, I burn it in for two weeks powering it by a bench constant current power supply. I then measure each series string and set the current limiting resistor (or LM-type regulator) to the exact value needed for that string.

Another tip: If you are trying to achieve energy efficiency you should be driving them at 350 ma instead of 700 ma. If you are trying to get the most light output for your money, then go the 700 ma. The high end commericial lights all drive at 700 ma in order to cut material costs. If you double up on LEDS used, drive at 350 ma, you will pick up about 20% better energy conversion efficiency. Plus you will have twice as many points of light.

I ordered up 20 of the Ledengin 660s to integrate into my setup as soon as I can find the time. I will only be using them on a portion of the crop so I can get an idea of the difference if any. I will be removing an equal wattage of 630s to get a fair comparison.

If you are trying to pick up some 660 energy,you might also try using the K2s instead of Crees for your 630s. They have a much wider bandwidth and only have about a 60%-70% drop from peak at 660. Looking at the SPD charts, the Crees ain't got nothin at 660. Also you might try using warm whites since most of them put out ok power at 660. Probably the best one at this time is the SSC P4, but the K2s aren't bad.
pg15
Thanks for the links, found some really useful info.
If you want to build your own drivers, you got to check out National Semiconductor, High-Performance Analog for Energy-Efficient PowerWise Designs. They got some really slick design tools, you can even order up a prototype kit for your design.

i-- let me know what you want to do. I can help you with any electronic design issues and step by step construction (with pics) and parts sourcing.

I got lots of practical hands-on experience and have done mucho research. The 24 volt drivers used in the sign and lighting industry are a good way to go but can get a bit pricey.

I am not much of a computer guy, but I heard somewhere that some of the older Macs had a 24 volt 3 amp source on their power supply. Anybody got any info on this?

I took the time to read your post a little bit closer.
If you mean the "Advanced Transformer" 60 watt Xitanium driver, that is a very good choice.
I strongly recommend running the LEDs at 3 watt instead of 5. You will get better energy efficiency, longer life, and your thermal issues will be much easier to deal with. 1 watt would be optimal, but those little buggers are just to damn expensive to run at that power level. I personally run the 660nm LEDengins at around 3 watts.
First, you are going to need 9 square inches per watt of heat sink exposure to air. 36 watts is going to need 324 square inches. You count both sides of all the fins and top and bottom of platform when making this calculation.
There is a guy on ebay that sells them cut to your size at very reasonable prices. I would go with about a 4.5 "x 12" and use a to a couple of computer fans on top.
Unless you want to order in another 4 LEDs, which would be a better choice, you are stuck at running 12 volt instead of 24. If running 12 volt, just buy a PC power supply for $10 to $20 bucks. Assuming 2.9 volt drop for 1 amp of current, you will need to run 3 parallel chains of 4 LEDs. You will want to use a .4 ohm resistor in each leg with minimum 2 watt minimum rating.
If I was only running 12 LEDs, I would consider making 3 small units instead of one, so I could be more flexible where I put the light

[veggii]

pg16
--Those are good prices on either the Xitanium or the GE. It wouldn't surprise me if they were made at the same place with different labels. Either one is a good bet and the prices are very good... jump on them. I use a 25 watt Xitanium as one of my test supplies.

While you can physically layout the leds in a single string, they will actually have to be electrically connected in 2 parallel strings of 6 to 8 LEDs depending on desired wattage. I would have a positive feed point in the middle of the layout and the negative on each end.

You can put the 2 resistors on either end or both in the middle.
5 watts is the max rating and gives you no margin of error on your voltage control plus you must have superb thermal management, plus you really shouldn't let your grow area temp get over 75 degrees. In order to run at 5 watts you will need a $180 digital bench power supply in order to get the 2 line resistors set up right on the money. You will then have to burn in each LED string over a period of 3 to 4 days while monitoring voltage changes at a constant current and also monitoring temperature. After the string has stabilized and you take measurements, you will probably have to make a custom resistor combo in order to get the precise value needed.

If you decide to run in the 3 to 4 watt range it will be much simpler to set up without the danger of wiping out $120 worth of LEDS. In reality you are probably only going to get about 10% more light at 5 watts then you would at 4 watts and will avoid the need for the expensive test equipment and testing.

Your first step is to get your hands on a heat sink. What is the desired and maximum length you want your array? I will send over the heat sink link from Ebay after I get back from dinner.

tetra info
The best configuration for the Tetra is 3 parallel strings of 8 LEDs.
Giving you about 72 watts to the array (3 watt per light).

If you want to run the lights at a higher rating of 4 watts you would be limited to 2 strings of 7 lamps. Giving you approx. 56 watts total for the assembly

Here's some pics of a 25 watter I just knocked out using K2s. I will be using different nm combos in seperate areas of the grow to try and find out what wavelengths are most effective.

------ I am starting on a 660nm array. If you want I can post pics and details of construction of progress, if you think that will be of help to you.

Both supplies are 120 ac in and 24vdc out. The big one is 180 watt.

The link for the heat sink is HEATSINK ALUMINUM EXTRUSION 8 1/2 WIDE PROFILE - eBay (item 170209048370 end time Apr-15-08 11:05:34 PDT)

So many theories floating around on color combos. I have even read one paper, that says plants will readily adapt to the wavelengths that are available to them. I have no personal opinion on what is going to work the best, so I am going to start experimenting, trying this and that.. It will probably take about a year or two before we start getting it really dialed in.

-----, I will start on the 660 nm strip array this weekend and post pictures of progress.

I got some 660s and am starting on some lamps this weekend.
I am able to set up 4 different grow sections to try different light combos.

Anyone know where to get high power 435s. I am currently running cool whites in order to pick up some light in that area.

Don't worry about replacing individual LEDs. By the time they burn out they will be obsolete. 2 or 3 years from now we will be getting our hands on the good stuff. No more HPS.

[veggii]

pg17
Here's the catch 22. If you have the background to swap LEDs, you will probably be building your own units instead of using commercial ones.

Remember each kind of LED has a different voltage drop/forward current curve. The V-drop can even vary in the same model LED depending on the mfg. bin. Also good heat sinking does not readily lend itself to easily switching out LEDs. Plus you need fast and good soldering skills.

I looked at the possibility of being able to change LEDs when I first starting building. The only practical idea I could think of was to mount an entire series string ( or a portion of the string) on a strip of copper or aluminum and fasten it to the bottom of the heat sink. I didn't think it was worth the effort especially considering it would be introducing another thermal junction

I have been using mostly K2s since efficiency is better then the IIIs and most Rebels. I do use SSCs for my cool whites. I have noticed a price drop of 30% this month from Future Elec.

To my knowledge most of the medium to large LED drivers are primarily voltage regulated at 24 V. I am only seen current regulated in the smaller DC to DC bucks and boosts. If you look at the Xitanium part numbers, the 4th character from the right designates voltage or current control. That is why I try to leave about 1 to 2 volts to drop in each series string and use a resistor.
I don't know if that is overkill or not, but at least it gives me a convenient way to monitor individual current to each string without going to the hassle of inserting an ma meter.
------- found some 60 watt drivers on Ebay for $20 plus shipping.

you might want to recheck your physics texts regarding
"Closer is not actually good because light only drops off with distance if the inside of the room is absorbing light".
Everytime you double the distance from a light source, it diminishes by a factor of four, whether it is in a grow room or outer space. Just play around with a light meter to verify.

At this stage of LED development, I believe the only significant edge LEDS have over HID is the ability to get very close to the plant. The only disadantage to getting closer is your area of coverage decreases. I put mine 4 to 6 inches max above the scrog.

If you run at 4.5 inches that gives you a 16X advantage over an equivalant light source run at 18" which is typical of HID.

more corrections.
Dont mean to beat up on you, but If I don't Physicsnole will.
The top of the UV range is 400nm. 435 is some of kind of blue and it is one of the peak absorption points along with 660nm for Chlorphyll (either A or B, I can't rememberwhich). That is why everyone is trying to hit those wavelengths.
The big question will it be worth the effort in practical results?
By the way, I have heard the same thing from good sources that UV helps the quality but not the quantity.

Something everyone needs to keep in mind is why are we messing around with LEDS. I think the obvious reason is to get more light energy per watt of household current. I can understand why everyone wants to drive them at max currents because they are so expensive but that is really defeating the purpose of what we are trying to achieve.

If you want to make better units then the Pycron or the Megablaster 2000, you can't drive LEDs at their max rated currents. Look at the LEDengin red 660nm for example. When you increase current from 700 ma to 1000 ma, power is increased by 56%. However, output only increases 25%. That means that the additional watt output is only 50% as efficient as the first two watts. If you used that extra watt instead to power 1/2 of an additional LED, you would be getting twice the light output from that watt.
And from a practical standpoint it becomes much harder to keep the LEDS cooled to a normal level when you push them towards max rating, which causes the output efficiency to drop a bit more.

I'm not buying that about the reflectors . Maybe Physicsnole can offer an understandable explanation, I'm not that swift with physics.
My thinking is that the reflected light energy has to travel an additional distance to the relective floor or wall with its energy decreasing by the square, take a really big hit with the relective inefficiency of whatever reflective material is used and then lose more energy traveling to the plant. Plus it is going to be tough getting the angles of reflection where they bounce right back at the plant. Most of the reflected light is probably going to miss the plant and hit another reflective surface.
I don't use focus lenses on the LEDs, so I have a typical 140 degree view angle, I do use a small hood on the edge lights in order to keep a consistent pattern.

If I had enough leds to give me good coverage, I would have them almost touching the tops

Yes, those are the two trade offs: cost or energy.
Each person will have their own criteria. I lean more towards the energy efficient, not so much for saving energy but to maintain the a good profile with my electric bill. Also in the spirit of research, since the goal most people are working on is trying to make them more energy efficient then HIDs.

Trying to make LEDs $$$ efficient is a losing battle at this time. HPS is so much cheaper. Of course in a year or two or three, it will be a different story. We are all just playing around now trying to figure out the best configurations until we can get our hands on the "good stuff" that is hopefully in the pipe line.
However, I do see your point. I am driving the LEDengin 660nms at
over 4 watts instead of 2.5 because they are so damn expensive.
When I am spending $2 to $3 on K2s, not that big a deal. On the K2 blues if you run 100 at one watt instead of 50 at 2 watts like the Procyn, you will put out about 25% more light from the array, with the added benefits of twice the light sources and easier to manage temps.

If you have a small grow it is not worth the expense of doubling up on your LEDs to get the extra efficiency. If you are running over a KW, energy efficiency starts to be an issue.

I am going to play around with some water cooling designs in a few weeks and see if that can prove useful.

Thanks for the link: I was going to solder some copper tubing to copper plate screw it to the bottom of a heat sink and mount the LEDs right on the copper tubing, but those are cooling plates are muy bueno.
I bet those puppies are expensive, they sure look nice. Have you seen any pricing? I guess you still have to run a bong cooler in order to get below ambient temp or have some other way to cool your water.
However, on my 25 watt arrays. They only run 2 or 3 degrees hotter then ambient temp with the fans on, so I am not really feeling much pressure to water cool.

If you are using K2s, dont sweat the PCB. I just attach the bare emitter directly to the heat sink using Artic Alumina Adhesive. It is not electrically conductive. It looks a little funky having connecting wires on the bottom of the light, but I really didn't want to screw around with PCBS and you get a very direct thermal path.

I only use the 25 watt Xitanium for test purposes. I got a bunch of
180 watt, 24 volt drivers used for the sign and lighting industry. I posted a picture of one a day or two ago. I run six 25 watt arrays per drivers. I do have some extras that I will be disposing of soon.

I still don't get it about the reflective room and the distance. You guys are saying that if I had a perfectly reflective room I could turn the light upside down and it wouldn't make any difference or move it an infinite distance away as long as it was inside a perfectly reflecting sphere. How come you are not taking into account the extra distance the reflected light has to travel?
Lets say you got a bulb that emits light evenly in all directions and it is in the exact middle of a sphere coated with a material that reflects with 100% efficiency. Lets put the target at the out edge of the sphere. All the light that does not hit the target directly is going to travel a longer distance before it hits the target bouncing off at least one surface but most likely multiple surfaces. That light will be diminished by the inverse square law.

That is why you want to get those lights right on frikken top of the plants, not 18 inches away.

I presume you are using rebel stars instead of the bare rebel emitter?
If you are using the bare emitters you can get a pcb from Asia Signals to mount them on. I believe you do have to have a hot air setup to solder them, I don't know if an iron would work. I have been wanting to try some Rebel emitters with the Asia Signals PCB, since the emitters are cheap and some colors have better efficiency then the K2s. The Rebel stars are just too darn expensive at this time.

[veggii]

pg18
think I will stick to the electronics end of things, the light wave physics is starting to hurt my head.

Re Procyn power supply. Ryan is smart enough to design one from scratch. My guess is that it is a one-off design. However, if someone with a Procyn is able to pop the hood and take a look, please let us know.
Physics, you are a brave man working with Rebel emitters. I would suggest not reinventing the wheel by making your own PCB. Check out AsianSignals Controllers. Please order some, I need a guinea pig to see how good they work.

I will be finished with the 660nm setup later today and will post construction pics.

didn't quite get finished on the 660 nm array today, but have some pics that might be of interest to anyone interested in building one. I always like to scrounge through junk that I accummulate at swap meets and had a bunch of these cheapy 2x2 inch computer fans kicking around. I decided to mount them on a piece of copper that I will cut to accomodate 7 LEDengin 5 watt 660nms.

The bottom of the heat sinks had a lot of scratchs plus I suspected they weren't perfectly flat. Having a good smooth surface with out high and low spots is essential to good heat transfer across a junction. I used a magic marker to color the bottom of the heat sink. I then laid fine emery on top of the cut copper bar. Lightly rubbing the bottom of the heat sink across the emery I was able to see the high spots.
I then leveled them out using the emery paper and polished with crocus cloth. I did a final check of the heat sink surface by coating it once again with Magic Marker and then applying a very light coat of fine automotive valve grinding coupound. I then rubbed directly on the copper plate in order to get a good mating surface.
After both the copper and heat sink were free of flat spots I eliminated the fine scratches with metal polishing compound.

This is the most tedious part of the construction, but is probably well worth the effort to keep things cool

This is the fun part. I did a layout to see how the components would fit and then drilled and threaded the mounting holes.
I decided not to mount the fans with screws since I was in a hurry but to fasten them on with Artic Alumina Adhesive. I don't know if this was a good idea or not. I will know when I start doing thermal testing.
Caution, if you are working with copper, go real slow with the small taps and back them out every quarter turn. Copper likes to grap taps. I managed to break off two 4-40 taps.

Everthing is now mounted and ready for wiring and LED installation.
I decided to go with a couple of aluminum side reflectors to keep the pattern tight. I prefer this to using focusing lenses.

Question: Does anyone know if the bottom of the LEDengin stars is electrically isolated. Their emitters are not isolated but it seems like the base on their stars are isolated. Nothing ohmed out. I could find no info in their data sheets. Would like a confirmation from someone.

I will post the final steps, along with testing in a few days

Thanks for the link. I had read them but couldn't find anything regarding stars. I am pretty sure that they are not conductive. I am going test them after I mount two of them. I will use grease and screws instead of insulating adhesive. Just hope they don't explode in my face.
No plans for EBay, they take too darn long to make. Plus shortly there will be a flood of Chinese knockoffs hitting the market at low prices. Someone is already copying the Procyn even before they have proven successful.
I'm just having fun playing around and experimenting I have made a few for friends. I try to make each one different and improve upon previous designs. I save a lot of metal scraps and electronics parts and try to design with what I have on hand.

Did you already buy your 660nms?

Physics, I have no idea what it is going to dissapate. My design criteria is to have at least 9 square inches per watt for passive heat sinking. But I like to run fans regardless, just as a back up for that extra edge and to add to room circulation.
Since these LEDs are so damn expensive, I will try to run at plus 4 watts each and will test all the way to 5 watts. I will give complete details on my thermal testing methods once I get to that stage.
To be honest, I probably screwed up by mounting the fans with adhesive instead of screws. I could not get the surfaces to mate as good as I wanted. I should have used 6 to 8 screws on each fan and torqued them down. Plus grease (Artic Silver) is a better thermal conductor then the adhesive.
I was just not looking forward to drilling and tapping 30 to 40 more holes. I spend so much time making these things, I am always looking for shortcuts. Since I was concerned, I did use aluminum instead of my usual galvanized steel for the reflectors in order to help with the heat sinking. Picked up an extra 90 square surface inches. I will probably keep using aluminum.

Lots of questions. I looked at the high power LED drivers and would be curious about price. I noticed they are 12 volt which is a little weird. The lighting industry is pretty much gravitating towards 24 volts. The more you can string in series the better.
Holy Crap, that 500 watter can belt out 40 amps. You are going to need power line cable to hook all your arrays and some heavy duty connectors. I really don't see how it would be workable.

For most people 100 to 250 watt power supplys running at 24 volts are probably the most practical answer.

Veggi, yes, I got some extras I want to get rid of. I had to buy a complete lot. Lets figure out a way to hook up and I will get you details. I don't want to get black balled for selling stuff on the forum.
The nice thing about LEDs is they lend themselves to a wide variety of configurations to fit a variety of situations. That is why I have been custom building them.

Next question,
Are 660nms worth the expense and effort? I will let you know in about 3 to4 months. I will be starting some comparative tests next week. As you have probably figured out, I am not much for theory, but more of a hands on guy.
I visited a lot of forums and read a lot of papers about plants and light waves. So many different opinions floating around but no one is testing them. It is probably going to take at least a year before we figure out what are the most efficient light combos.

Yes, I do use the red Luxeon K2 at 625 nm. I chose it over other brands because of the wide bandwidth. Check out the SPD curve, it does a far better job of hitting 660 then any other red.
At this time I have pretty much been covering my bases with lights, even using the different whites. As time goes on, I will see what can be eliminated and added.

The copper strip is 2.25" x 12". I would't want to run more then 7 on it. I think it is better to build 2 units with 7 each. I will dig up the url of my online metal supplier if interested.
If you go with the LEDengins buy the stars. I usually use emitters, but they aren't that much extra. I think they were about $11.50 from Mouser.

K2s vs. Rebels: All things being equal, I would go with the K2s. Simply because I can paste those babies right on a heat sink and hand solder them (I made some very tiny clamp-on heat sinks to clip on the wires).
I am going to try some Rebel emitters very soon because some colors have better efficiency then K2s and are a bit cheaper. The Rebel Stars are a rip-off, that is why I have avoided them. I will get some of the boards from Asia Signals and try to mount some emitters. I do have a hot air reflow soldering system and some good soldering paste in the frig next to the ketchup, so I probably won't screw the Rebels up too badly.

I do like the idea of a new string that is focused on practical building techniques, where we can share ideas, sources, experimental results and see how we can make better units then ones commercially available.
And keeping the theory to a minimum.

Veggii How do you start a new string?

[veggii]

picd from post 434

[veggii]

pics from post 435

[veggii]

pics from post 436

[texas grass]

nice quality work:thumbsup:

[SnSstealth]

sweet!!...didnt know ya had this one going veggii!
WT

[veggii]

Hopefully this week or next ,I will beable too grab a few LEDS
and get a Tetra and make one with pics;)

[veggii]

sweet!!...didnt know ya had this one going veggii!
WT
Ya,, I thought it needed too be in its own thread as physics already has 2 projects going in his thread

[redline]

Veggi,
Sorry about absence. I was interrupted by reality and had to take care of some business.
I hope to be finished by this weekend with the 660nm array. I had to back-track and screw mount some of the fans when I managed to dislodge them from the adhesive.
I am going to build the next strip in aluminum instead of copper. While the copper has much better thermal properties it is so darn hard to machine. It takes forever to tap a hole. You have to go really slow so they don't break.

[veggii]

hey redline I thought we lost ya!!!
I know how thats goes as i have been having troubles around the home my self. on the good side mouser got in the LEDS

[redline]

I was lost, it happens to me way too often these days.

I have been rethinking some of the design criteria in order to get max yield using LEDs. I am going with a couple of basic assumptions (please feel free to challange) that will be cornerstone of designs:

1. LED plant projects need to be SCROGed for max yield. The flatter the better.
2. I am going to shoot for 30 watts per square foot, vs the standard 50 watt per square foot used for HPS. I think most of us will be happy with a 40% savings in lightbill (or footprint).
3. Goal will be to achieve .5 gram/watt/mo harvests.

4. While energy efficiency will be the numero uno criteria, costs also have to be kept under control, just to make projects affordable at our level.

[redline]

Most of the commericial designs seem to be powerful 80 to 100 watt units on a small platform of between 1/2 to 1 square foot. I believe this concentrates the light too much.

I am now thinking smaller units between 10 to 30 watts that plug into
overhead motherboards that supply power and help duct heat. Motherboard would probably be about 2'x 2' aluminum and would provide up to 180 watts to supply LEDs and fans. There would be multiple plugs, so units could be custom positioned to fit needs of individual gardens. Also they could be repositioned as needed to accomodate different stages of growth.

This modular type design would also allow for upgrade designs in baby lights. Sort of a plug and play setup.

[SnSstealth]

i think i would like the procyons LEDs a little more spaced as well....and you are right on the SOG/SCROG...i think If we did that this first grow, yeild wouldve been way higher...look out for LED-SOG thread in a few weeks!!!
:smokebong:
whiskeytango

[veggii]

Hey guys I was just thinking ,, we need a grow that crosses weedhound and stealth !!! :thumbsup:

[veggii]

Ok guys and all you DiYers, I was gonna try too make a general summary of the LED light build. Basically your first step is todo
research! lots of it!
the second step would be too pick your bulb!
I have done a bunch of research and i have picked my bulb.
I will be using the 660nm 5watt from LedEngin as I believe the Bulb is superior for plants.I do believe LedEngin has done research on it before they stamped it HORTICULTURE.
http://www.ledengin.com/products/5wLZ/LZ1-00R205.pdf
I think am going to start with 15 of them. @ $11ea.
step 3 pick your power supply
the GE TETRA LED ballast will do
Tetra 24V LED Ballast - eBay (item 140205734426 end time May-08-08 10:55:14 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/Tetra-24V-LED-Ballast_W0QQitemZ140205734426QQihZ004QQcategoryZ58 145QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742.m153.l1 262)

another possibilty is the 60watt advance driver
(1) Advance Xitanium 60W 12V LED ELCTRNC Driver 120VAC - eBay (item 130194126839 end time Apr-27-08 21:48:56 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/1-Advance-Xitanium-60W-12V-LED-ELCTRNC-Driver-120VAC_W0QQitemZ130194126839QQihZ003QQcategoryZ581 45QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem)

and there is also the Osram 50watt driver
Osram Optotronic 50W LED Power Supply - eBay (item 140155558019 end time May-03-08 14:41:57 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/Osram-Optotronic-50W-LED-Power-Supply_W0QQitemZ140155558019QQihZ004QQcategoryZ581 45QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem)

ok so basically what we have going is 2 types of DiY lights
the one type being a single light fixture that plugs into the wall running approx 50watt to 75 watt.(internal ballast)

the second type using a power supply like the 180watt in redline's
picture.this style is just like the current HPS & MH setup's were the light fixture plugs into the ballast.(external ballast)

step 4 would be to build your power circuit.
this is a little bit far ahead for me ,,seeing how I haven't recieved my LEDS yet or power supply. and redline hasn't gotton the first
660nm running yet so not sure about HEAT!! and heatsinking.

I want to keep this light build simple and easy ,, using name brand cheap stuff that everyone can get ahold themselves ;)

redline you are having trouble with the copper and putting threads in it? aluminum has thread problems too all soft metals
do. i just battled the aluminum threads in the T5 i made and won!
maybe you can drill a whole all the way thru the heatsink and use a skinny bolt instead of screw!! I can't really say ,,gtg bbl

[oldmac]

Hey veggii;

Thanks for pulling out Redlines build(s) into a new thread.
I'm old and get confused easily....you just sorted some things out for me, I appreciate it.

I sorta have 1/2 your light. My bloom "bulb" set-up has 8-alum PCB strips 24" L w/ 10 Red cree xr LEDs. Total 160watts of light plus a seperate 180watt 28volt power supply. Looks just like the PS Redline showed in a picture, except mine cost about 10X more, or well.

I grow SOG, RW 3-stage, Hydro drip to waste, bloom in a modified GI Grow 144 site rotating garden.

Since I need 360degree light output, (not LED strong point!) I used an aluminum extrusion in an octagon shape 4" flat to flat w/ 2" flats. Hence the 8-LED strips...one for each flat. Since I had a failed "warm white" experiment and because I thought maybe I lacked 660nm red, I used 8-2ft T5 HO fluros, full spectrums, again one per flat on the alum extrusion. The fluros end caps are flush mounted and the ballasts are thermal epoxied inside extrusion. The whole thing fits inside the 6" boroscilcate glass tube. Replaced a 600w HPS with 192wfluro/160w LED, has equal or better performance. First grow with it averaged .2gram/plant site more then I had ever gotten w/strain and .3gr/plt then last time run w/ HPS. Finished a few days sooner, but too many variables there, so can't say it was the light.

Oh, Veggii; thanks also for mentioning that Physicsnole has TWO projects over there..........I was trying to figure out why he was going high-power LED into a PC case. HeHe now it makes sence.

-oldmac

[redline]

Veggi,
Trust me about the copper, It is mucho harder then aluminum. I could not go more then an 1/8 turn on a tap without having to back it out and about 1/2 turn without taking it out and cleaning it.
Of course lube didn't help a bit.
OldMac, I would like to see some shots of your construction, sounds interesting.

[redline]

I am currently constructing an 8x2 area for LED color experiments. Right now am trying to get enough clones going to populate it and get lights built.
It will be chopped up into four 2x2 areas.
Area 1: Traditional royal blue and red only like all the commericial units. 30/70 ratio.
Area 2: Cool White and warm white, same 30/70 ratio

Area 3: The Kitchen sink, royal blue, blue cyan, warm white, cool white, neutral white, red and 660nm.

Area 4. Cool white for the low end and 630nms and 660nms for the high end.

Let me know if anyone has any ideas for other test areas?

[physicsnole]

how about one all 660 and one all royal blue

[redline]

Physics,
You got it, Area #5. Any more requests?
I am anxiously awaiting your experiments on the pulsing to see how it pans out. I don't have either the physics or horticulture background to completely understand the theory behind pulsing.

[redline]

Veggi,
I dont have instant messenger. I did send you an email at that hotmail address. Does that work?

[veggii]

redline yes that email is good i did'nt get your email tho maybe you typed it wrong everyone usually misses the underscore in my email addy ***[email protected] see underscore inbetween the 0 and @

ok now where was I oh yes the LED build
step 1 : research
step 2: pick bulb
step 3 : pick power source
step 4 : pick heatsink
step 5: design power circuit

I have decided to go with 15ea of ledengin 5watt 660nm
two strings of 7 bulbs getting 15 so I have 1 extra
using the GE Tetra ballast. both products are widely available
redline were you able to design the 660nm 7 bulb circuit yet?
there might be some help on the circuit here:
Starting Construction of a Light - Build Your Own - GreenPineLane (http://www.greenpinelane.com/yaf/yaf_postst34_Starting-Construction-of-a-Light.aspx)

[redline]

Veggi,
I just tried emailing you again.
Yes, I have design, 2 rows of 7. I will start out with a couple 3 ohm resistors and try to decrease resistance as much as possible depending on array thermal properties. I will post testing procedure.

I am going to try and have lamp finished by late today or tomorrow. I am having to do a yard/garage cleanup on my days off so that is taking a lot of time.

Do you have a 220 vac outlet close to your grow area?

[redline]

Correction, I meant 240 VAC.

[redline]

I just fired up the LEDEngin 660nm array and am going to have to do some modifications.
The LED spec sheet gives a typical forward voltage drop of 3 volt at 1100ma to 1200 ma which was my design current range.
Everyone of my LEDs measured out below the minumum voltage value of 2.48 , with an average of 2.43.
This means I have to add another 2 to 3 LEDs (which I don't have room for) or use a big friggin power wasting resistor since I am running a 24 volt power supply
This also means they are going to max out at 3.8 watts per LED and realistically run them between 2.5 and 3 watts.

Using other brand LEDs, they always are close to the mid-range typical value and I have been able to base designs around this.

Anyone scratch building with these LEDs really needs an adjustable digital readout power supply with voltage and current regulation in order to check specs of each LED before assembly.

[Opie Yutts]

OK sometime soon I will read this thread in it's entirety, but for proper LED testing you need an analog multi meter, not digital.

[SnSstealth]

more power to you you guys...lol, I am a plug n play kinda guy...
whiskeytango

[Tomatoesonly]

Hey Redline,

Don't know if you are planning on doing this for commercial purposes, but is there any chance you will do a step by step with the exact parts you ordered and how to assemble.
I'm pretty mechanical and have plenty tools, and patience, I just need instructions.

[redline]

No problemo,
I got several different designs going on. Just let me know what you want to do and I can work you through the whole enchilada.
By the way, in case you have not already picked it up, I am still out to lunch as far as what wavelengths and combos work the best. Everything is very experimental at this stage as far as I am concerned.

[ptwown]

Hey there redline, I have been researching growing plants with LEDs for about 4 to 6 months, done a lot of research, read all the forums on this site and others, and am ready to commit to actually making some arrays. I have a 2x4 flowering area and am thinking about using 100 or more high power LEDs. My problem now is I am not sure of how to make the drivers, or what i should do. Do you have any advice or suggestions on cost effective power supplies and driver solutions? Help is very much needed. Thanks!

[kutchc]

Hope you don't mind me interjecting, but I found this interesting thread on another board. Hopefully it's allowed, if not I apologize in advance.

Marijuana Growing - - LR2 LED/CF guide - LED building instructions (spider lights) (http://www.marijuanagrowing.eu/lr2-led-cf-guide-led-building-instructions-spider-lights-t28041-360.html)

They do seem to have come up with some good solid ideas. I especially like their design using the high power leds. Looks like their "main strip" on the top has no heat issues at all.

They are playing around with different wave lengths and looks like they have some solid r&d going on. Too early for me as wanna get down growing normal plants first...

[redline]

That's me on the other forum.. "McQueen".

For drivers the best advice I can give is to not to bother trying to build them from scratch. You can use a computer power supply if you want to run 12 volt or a commercial LED supply if you want to run 24 volt.
I am commited to 24 volt because I bought a bunch of commercial LED drivers. But I think 12 volt may work better in some circumstances.

You might want to hang loose in your project for a week or two. I have a new design on the way that will address the major issues that I see with using LEDs for grow lights.

I don't think the leading commercial configurations are heading in the right direction. They are still using "HID thinking" trying to compact the lights and power into a small area and then hang them a couple of feet above the plants to get a bigger footprint.

Current LEDs simply do not have the penetrating power to do this. Compare 3 watts of light originating from a single point vs. 400 watts from a single point. Plus everyone is still trying to grow 2 foot to 3 foot plants with LEDS.

My current design is a modular- plug and play system. It is a 2ft x2.5 ft aluminum frame. It is designed to cover 5 to 6 square foot growing area.
It will use 16 to 20 small arrays. Each module will be individually adjustable for height and angle. Plus I will be able to change out light configurations for veg and bud.

This will allow me to closely follow the top contour of a SCROG and be able to get the lights within 2" to 6 inch" It will also allow me to make easy changes to accomodate growth.

[veggii]

Hi redline
srry I dissappeared I had some really bad things happen.
gonna try and get back maybe next month or so .
I am broke now so I can't get anywhere.
keep up the hard work and I hope I will beable to rejoin U soon

[redline]

Veggi, Hope things get better.

[chrisman1547]

redline,
I'm very interested in building my own array. I recently bought a procyon and now I want to start building my own. I have similar questions of others. such as what exactly do I need to buy and how to exactly design the array. is there any books you recommend to read or certain websites to go to. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[redline]

There are no books since this is the very beginning of serious homebuilding and experimentation. To be honest I don't think there is any advantage at this time to using LEDs, except for a strong desire to experiment. While they are now working, they have yet to come close to out producing HIDs ( think however, that is very close to happening with SNStealth).

LED arrays can be quite difficult to build and get working right. You need to have at least a basic electrical/electronics background and be able to do light mechanical and electronics construction. I have been spending some time on the "perfect LED" string. One of the guys is having some problems, even though he sounds like he has a pretty good grasp of electronic construction.
You might want to check out the entire string and jump on it with any questions.

There is scattered info on the internet, but you have to have some background to understand it.

[chrisman1547]

Redline,
I have a basic understanding of electricity I took 3 physics classes in college and played around with car stereos a lot, but I need to brush up on my soldering and schematic symbols and ohm's law, its been awhile. I wasn't too clear in my last post. also, thanks for the link to the other thread.
I started to read through the "perfect LED", but its rather long.
Thanks

[redline]

That's good enough, you got the basics. I can work you through it.

First decision: Scrog or regular grow ? This will make a big difference in the construction techniques.
I lean heavily towards SCROG or plants trained with a flat growing surface.

If you go SCROG you build your lights where they are spread out. If you are growing taller plants, you go with a "Brick" type design like Procyn where you got a lot of wattage in a small area.

[Projman]

I have a new design on the way that will address the major issues that I see with using LEDs for grow lights.

I don't think the leading commercial configurations are heading in the right direction. They are still using "HID thinking" trying to compact the lights and power into a small area and then hang them a couple of feet above the plants to get a bigger footprint.

Current LEDs simply do not have the penetrating power to do this. Compare 3 watts of light originating from a single point vs. 400 watts from a single point. Plus everyone is still trying to grow 2 foot to 3 foot plants with LEDS.

My current design is a modular- plug and play system. It is a 2ft x2.5 ft aluminum frame. It is designed to cover 5 to 6 square foot growing area.
It will use 16 to 20 small arrays. Each module will be individually adjustable for height and angle. Plus I will be able to change out light configurations for veg and bud.

This will allow me to closely follow the top contour of a SCROG and be able to get the lights within 2" to 6 inch" It will also allow me to make easy changes to accomodate growth.


That sounds fantastically logical. Shift the grow light paradigm. Is this new direction on paper yet? Very exciting.

[Projman]

One of the issues with wider flat panels vs. the traditional high output fixed source is that wider panels will make some plants farther from certain LEDs. Not so bad if you have all 450 and 660 LEDs but if you start sprinkling in a few far reds in the panel, some buds won't see the light.

Unless you just went with many more bulbs or the sprinkled LEDs were simply higher output to reach better / broader.

[redline]

Yeah, I got it on paper and got all the materials, started doing the metal work, just have been really short on time.
The problem with all the commericial panels is they use 5mm LEDs which are next to useless, you are far better off with CFLS.

My system is not actually a panel, but a system of small brick type units using high power LEds like the K2s and LEDengins. Each module is between 12 to 15 watts and can be individually adjusted for height and angle plus can be placed precisely at the desired location in the 2' x 2.5' grid, so you can fine tune it to the growth contour.

My only problem left to solve is the cooling. Individual fans on each heatsink are power hogs using about 3 watts per fan...plus they also complicate the construction. I am trying to work on a unit type cooling system design that only uses 1 to 3 fans to cool the 12 lamp modules.

[Projman]

Hmmm... Coolong is big. I've read that the LEDs run more "true" color, efficient and lower wattage when cool.

On a ScrOG, would it be necessary to have all of that height and angle variability? If you're training the bud and have them all the same height within 2"-3" , and the ScrOG is flat as a pancake, seems that a really flat panel would work. Assuming you have the higher intensity 5W+ LEDs that have an active projection range of 12" maybe?

I haven't grown anything yet and obviously have a limited grasp. That's why I'm asking. Hope that's OK...

[redline]

It is all still experimental, so no one really knows what is going to work best.

At least for me, it is very hard to hold a scrog grow within 2 to 3 inches. It is best to stop training before 2d week of budding and there will still be some uneven growth after that.
Getting LEDs to really work, especially without using a focusing lens, you should be within 1 to 3 inches of the top. . Making the lights adjustable is not that big a deal, so I just went ahead and incorporated it into the design.

[Projman]

Sounds great. Obviously flexability is more powerful, and I certainly see your point about hovering 1-3" over the top of the ScrOG

I see most builds are using a single LED for Blue and one for red. Consider those to be the primary wavelengths. Physics et al had done a lot of work looking into a range of secondary wavelengths. That seems very reasonable, but hard to incorporate a sprinkling of these secondary and expect them to hit all pats of the plant.

I wonder about a round panel that simply rotated?

[redline]

Rotation or some kind of movement is probably not a bad idea and something to be looked at as we move forward.

Nobody, especially guys working at our level and with MJ, has any kind of solid handle on light wavelength ratios, etc. This all needs to be sorted out.

Even if you knew that plants like a ratio of 3 red to 1 blue of the amount of photons received, it would be very difficult to translate that into the proper ratio of LEDs used.

First blues put out a lot more photons then reds since the higher the frequency of light the more power delivered. Calculating this is very difficult if not impossible without a specialized computer program and better mfg. specs or access to a radio spectrometer.

My best guess is if you use the usual 3 red leds to 1 blue led, you might actually be delivering more blue light to the plant.

I suspect that plants have a great deal of flexibility to utilize whatever light comes their way and dicking around with light ratios may not be as important as many believe.

[Projman]

Thanks for that insight on the blue to red ratios.

Am I mistaken or has the venerable Sns had good success from veg to bud with his Procyons? I seem to remember maybe he's augmenting with some red or something as a separate panel?

If he's had success with the product quality (as compared to the parallel goal of energy efficiency), he seems like the only guy that's describing his satisfaction. Is his Procyon + augmentive panel not the model to follow?

[Projman]

My best guess is if you use the usual 3 red leds to 1 blue led, you might actually be delivering more blue light to the plant.

I suspect that plants have a great deal of flexibility to utilize whatever light comes their way and dicking around with light ratios may not be as important as many believe.

The red / Blue scenario you're describing might explain why veg seems to have worked better than flowering.

I'm not so sure on the plants flexibility on wavelength. While I would subscribe to there being some deviation from lab to field, or also subscribe to some higher plants requiring slightly different coctails, It seems that if they don't get what they want they just don't do as well.

But who knows, is your very good point.

[redline]

SNS achieved 2 notable marks,
1. He was the second guy to document on the Internet a complete front to back LED grow. He was the first to do it with a commerical LED unit.
2. He was the first to achieve a comparable yield on a per plant only basis with HIDs. Each of his plants produced an amount comparable to a plant grown under
HID.
No one has yet documented a growth where LEDs have reached a total crop yield of .5 gram/watt/month which is the benchmark for a competent HID grower. Best as been slightly over .3 gram/watt/month by a Dutch guy.

So at this time, there is no evidence that LEDs can outperform HIDs.

The commericial units have to make a bunch of compromises in order for them to be a viable commercial venture. I think the guys making the stuff at home are going to hit the .5 g/w/m mark first.

[redline]

I do not like any of the commercial models for MJ growing. They are all what Veggi coined as the "brick" design. They concentrate a lot of wattage in a small area. They range from 100 watts to 300 watts per unit with LEDs packed into a very small area.

Lets take the Procyn since it is actually the best one to use for MJ.
50 to 60 watts per square foot is the norm for HID coverage. For us to be energy efficient with LEDs, we are shooting for 30 to 40 watts per square foot.

The Procycns lLEDs are mounted on a .5 square foot platform and have to project a footprint 5 to 6 times larger or 2.5 to 3 square feet. to get the desired watt/sq.ft ratio. That means the Procycn probably has to be mounted at least a foot above the top of the plants. (I would like someone with a Procyn to help me out with getting a more exact number).

What if you took the about the same number and same wattage of LEDs and mounted them over a 3 square foot area, with the ability to place each of the six 16 watt light modules where they will do the most good.

Now adjust the height of each module where it is 1.5 inch above the top of the plant. Adjust the angle of the modules on the border of the grow area so they are pointed into the grow without wasted light.

Since you are so close to the plants, you don't have to use lenses to gain penetration and save the 15% loss. So now the 100 watt homemade unit is comparable to an "85 watt" Procycn. You now have about 73 times as much light energy hitting the tops of the plants as compared to a Procycn at 1 foot. This is the only way LEDs are going to be able to outperform HIDS.

Obviously you will have to structure growing methods and plant type to meet this structure. I think what we really need to work on is getting the most amount of light energy possible to the plants instead of theorizing about precise light wavelength ratios. That can all be sorted out later.

Please keep in mind this is just my opinion and results have yet to be confirmed.

[Projman]

Red you have such a great handle on all of this. I'm really glad I found this forum.

I have a small discrete growing area ready and this will obviously work much better if I have less heat venting issues. Obviously I need to vent some.

So i'd like to take the plunge and see what comes of it. Use what "the collective" has for best data and go with it. Is there a recommendation for a system for a 2x3 ScrOG?

If there's a thought about using the secondary wavelengths to augment primary, I could go circular and rotate.

Thanks for any thoughts.

[Projman]

Actually, how cold you possibly rotate with a power cable attached... Maybe that's a poor thought.

[Opie Yutts]

Actually, how cold you possibly rotate with a power cable attached... Maybe that's a poor thought.

Now you're getting into my secret design, and it's not a poor thought. Clue: Search slip ring.

[Projman]

Slip ring... sounds like something I hurt my unit with one day but never told anyone...

Thanks for that seriously. I will look at this.

[Projman]

Holy crap that's the ticket. A slip ring. So Opie you have an inclination to rotate an array, really?

[redline]

There may not be a need to rotate or move light if you can get the proper light placement. My latest design lets you easily manually move the light in 1/2 inch increments in an x/y axis and rotate each module about 180 degrees in the same plane.
Each module can also be set up to rotate in the z plane to get the correct angle.

The frame is 2' x 2.5 ' for a 5 square foot area. I will use a 24 volt 180 watt led driver on each frame. I am aiming for 30 to 35 watts per square foot.
I will use 12 modules in the frame in a 3x4 grid. Each module will be in the 12 to 14 watt range and have a quick disconnect plug into the grid framework (Lets call it the motherboard) wiring. Using K2 reds,royal blue and whatever else I have laying around. I may integrate some LED engin 660nms into some of the modules or I may use them (about 40 to 50 watts) as "Boost Lighting" during the last 4 weeks. I am keeping my options open. By using the module concept with only a few LEDs on each heatsink. I can easily subsitute each module for one with a different color ratio mix.

The heat sinks (available through a shop on EBAy at a very good price) are big enough that I do not need to use a fan on top of each. I am going to try cooling the area above the heat sinks with a ducted air current that will also help to get rid of smell. If need be, I will have the flexibility to mount fans on each module.

I am going to start building the frame next week and will post pictures and details.
If anyone wants to get started on one, I will answer any questions.

I have kept construction simple, all materials are available from OSH or HD.
You will need basic tools: A cheapy drill press, but a hand drill will get you by,
hacksaw and taps.

[Weezard]

Actually, how cold you possibly rotate with a power cable attached... Maybe that's a poor thought.


Ain't no cable onna plant.
So, who you gonna spin?
Just set the girl onna Roomba, then confuse it.:D


Weetard

[redline]

I don't think there is a great need to move the lights.
The major benefit with light movers is for HIDs and I don't see too much benefit for LEDs.
1. you got a single point of light which needs to be moved to get an even coverage. With LEDs you just spread them out instead. And get the colors arranged so that the plants get their share of each wavelength. BH seems to address this by throwing the kitchen sink at them and using warm whites that cover a very wide range.

2. You can get the HPS much closer to the plant since you won't have the heat buildup. No problemo with LEDs since they can almost touch the plant.

[Weezard]

There may not be a need to rotate or move light if you can get the proper light placement. My latest design lets you easily manually move the light in 1/2 inch increments in an x/y axis and rotate each module about 180 degrees in the same plane.
Each module can also be set up to rotate in the z plane to get the correct angle.

The frame is 2' x 2.5 ' for a 5 square foot area. I will use a 24 volt 180 watt led driver on each frame. I am aiming for 30 to 35 watts per square foot.
I will use 12 modules in the frame in a 3x4 grid. Each module will be in the 12 to 14 watt range and have a quick disconnect plug into the grid framework (Lets call it the motherboard) wiring. Using K2 reds,royal blue and whatever else I have laying around. I may integrate some LED engin 660nms into some of the modules or I may use them (about 40 to 50 watts) as "Boost Lighting" during the last 4 weeks. I am keeping my options open. By using the module concept with only a few LEDs on each heatsink. I can easily subsitute each module for one with a different color ratio mix.

Brilliant!

The heat sinks (available through a shop on EBAy at a very good price) are big enough that I do not need to use a fan on top of each. I am going to try cooling the area above the heat sinks with a ducted air current that will also help to get rid of smell. If need be, I will have the flexibility to mount fans on each module.

I am going to start building the frame next week and will post pictures and details.
If anyone wants to get started on one, I will answer any questions.

I have kept construction simple, all materials are available from OSH or HD.
You will need basic tools: A cheapy drill press, but a hand drill will get you by,
hacksaw and taps.

Wow! You are really thorough.

I usually just "redneck it up" with spit and duct tape.

My first 14 Watt panel was stuffed with 12 degree 10mm. LEDs
The narrow beam angle made red and blue spots until the panel was 18" from the tops of the tomatoes.:)

Bought a Graco "baby swing" at a garage sale.
Removed the "motor", hung it from the ceiling and used it to swing the light to and fro.
Neat little bugger, ran 18 hours a day for weeks on two D cells .
Just provides a "kick" that keeps the panel swinging.
But the tick, tick was keeping me awake.
That, and cheap duct tape gets crappy when the temerature hits 90F.

'bout time I built sumpin' I can be proud of.
I no gotta be brilliant.
Just gotta stay bright enough to recognize good ideas when I read 'em.
I'm gonna be haunting this thread and pickin' your brain if ya don't mind.

"Give people a light, and they will follow it anywhere" -F.T.:D

Mahalo nui,
Weezard

[redline]

I'm kind of the same way, I come from a long line of rednecks.
I figure things out as I go along. I really like to recycle junk that I can put to good use, but in this case I had to bite the bullet and buy everything new in order to meet design parameters.

I just wasn't completely happy with the brick units I built so I am looking to move on to the next stage of progress. I hope it pans out. I got a crap load of money going into it. Almost as much as a Procycn. I am making it easily upgradable so I can plug in new LEDs as they hit the market.

[redline]

I like the baby swing idea.

[Projman]

The frame is 2' x 2.5 ' for a 5 square foot area.

I am going to start building the frame next week and will post pictures and details.
If anyone wants to get started on one, I will answer any questions.

I have my hand way in the air! That sounds like exactly what I need for my ScrOG. Man oh man.

[redline]

Ok here we go with the materials. I will have to give it in segments as I think of things.
Please be patient since I am really having to squeeze to find time for this. As I recall you were looking for a 10 foot area, so you would need to build 2 or them. I would suggest starting with one and see how that works for you.

By the way, in addition to the basic metal working tools, you will need a digital multimeter and a basic understanding of electricity and Ohms law. You will also need a temperature controlled soldering station, preferably digital.

1. Main Power Supply. I am using a commercial 24 volt 180 watt LED driver to power the entire frame. I can supply circuit design if you want to go with something else like a 12 volt supply. At the risk of being blackballed from this forum, I am going to pimp out some of my extra power supplies. I had to buy a large quantity of them to get a good price, so got a bunch of extras. $40 for the 120v units. I also got four 220 volt units, for $20 each and whatever shipping runs. I think I posted a picture of them earlier in this string.

2. Secondary power supply, some kind of 12 volt unit at least 2 amps, or you can use several smaller current units.Even a big wall wart will work. Not really critical since it will be used to power fans and illuminate some digital volt and amp panel meters which will be used for monitoring.

2. Heat sinks. I got them from a guy on Ebay. I buy a whole slab and he will cut them to size. Really good price. I have posted links several times on both strings. The slab will cost you a little over $100 bucks with shipping and you will have enough for two frames. The size is 4 1/8" measured across the fins and 4" in the direction of the fins.
You got 120 square inches of cooling surface or enough to cool 12 watts without any airflow, so we will have to get something going to get them cooled down. I am going to start engineering the cooling system towards the middle and end of the project. Worst case, I can strap a computer fan on the top of each module.

3. A crap load of K2 emitters (from Future Electronics). Let's say 60 percent red, 20 percent royal blues, 10 percent cool white, 10 percent warm white. But feel free to use whatever you think is going to work. You will be using between 8 or 11 of them per board. I will work up some different combos, but your guess is as good as mine.
Might as well pick up a handful of 5 watt 660nms also (Mouser) if you are feeling expansive and got a few bucks to blow.
Holler at me before you order the LEDs and I will make sure you are getting the right bins. I go with the highest ones available.

4. Artic Alumina or Artic Silver Adhesive.

List to be continued in next post.

[Projman]

Very Good. Thank you. My grow is 2x2 or 2x3 so 1 unit will work just fine.

[redline]

List continued:
5. Digital Panel meters. You can get these cheap on EBay from a large distributer in China. You need a 200 dc meter, a 20 amp meter and one or two of the 3 amp meter.

6. 12 Cinch-Jones male and female plugs. The female are panel mount, the male are cable mount.

That should take care of all the goodies needed to construct the modules. Let me know if any help is needed sourcing the items.

I will post pictures and details of the metal needed for the mainframe construction. You can pick that stuff up locally.

A couple of nice items to have if you think you are going to be playing around with LEDs are a variable voltage/current adjustable power supply with a digital readout... about $160. And an infrared remote thermometer... $60 to $150.



Projman....Are you still with us?

[redline]

Here is the grow info.
12 plants (max allowed in my area for meds) under the mainframe in a 3 x 4 array. You could also go with 6 larger plants. I use 7 inch square buckets placed in a 2 x 3 cement mixing tub from Home Depot.
I grow in CoCo and hand water since it very forgiving of screwups and I don't have to worry about equipment failure. I can't say enough good things about CoCo.
I don't use a scrog net since I like to be able to move individual plants for maintenance, trimming and more important being able to place them for optimal lighting as the grow larger.
The buckets have slots on the sides making it very easy to train the plants and keep them low using wire ties. I train them in a circle around the perimeter of the bucket. If I go with larger plants, I use a wood trellis (pics somewhere on this forum).

[Projman]

I am definitely with you. Definitely. Taking the shopping list and sourcing / getting parts numbers and ordering this weekend. Thanks so much.

I hope that others will find this as beneficial as I do.

[Projman]

Again, I'll be looking at maybe 5-6 square feet. 2x3 or so. I'm really excited.

[Projman]

1. Main Power Supply. I am using a commercial 24 volt 180 watt LED driver to power the entire frame. I can supply circuit design if you want to go with something else like a 12 volt supply. At the risk of being blackballed from this forum, I am going to pimp out some of my extra power supplies. I had to buy a large quantity of them to get a good price, so got a bunch of extras. $40 for the 120v units. I also got four 220 volt units, for $20 each and whatever shipping runs. I think I posted a picture of them earlier in this string.

Can you PM Me?

2. Secondary power supply, some kind of 12 volt unit at least 2 amps, or you can use several smaller current units.Even a big wall wart will work. Not really critical since it will be used to power fans and illuminate some digital volt and amp panel meters which will be used for monitoring.

Is there a model / part # and source?

2. Heat sinks. I got them from a guy on Ebay. I buy a whole slab and he will cut them to size. Really good price. I have posted links several times on both strings. The slab will cost you a little over $100 bucks with shipping and you will have enough for two frames. The size is 4 1/8" measured across the fins and 4" in the direction of the fins.
You got 120 square inches of cooling surface or enough to cool 12 watts without any airflow, so we will have to get something going to get them cooled down. I am going to start engineering the cooling system towards the middle and end of the project. Worst case, I can strap a computer fan on the top of each module.

Found your previous link. None available on ebay right now.

3. A crap load of K2 emitters (from Future Electronics). Let's say 60 percent red, 20 percent royal blues, 10 percent cool white, 10 percent warm white. But feel free to use whatever you think is going to work. You will be using between 8 or 11 of them per board. I will work up some different combos, but your guess is as good as mine.
Might as well pick up a handful of 5 watt 660nms also (Mouser) if you are feeling expansive and got a few bucks to blow.
Holler at me before you order the LEDs and I will make sure you are getting the right bins. I go with the highest ones available.

I'm hollering... Ready to order




Thanks

[Projman]

List continued:
5. Digital Panel meters. You can get these cheap on EBay from a large distributer in China. You need a 200 dc meter, a 20 amp meter and one or two of the 3 amp meter.

I see Asia Engineer selling a lot...

Like this: 200 V DC BLUE LCD Battery Panel Digital Volt Meter - eBay (item 330260572812 end time Aug-19-08 02:22:05 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/200-V-DC-BLUE-LCD-Battery-Panel-Digital-Volt-Meter_W0QQitemZ330260572812QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m330260572812&_trkparms=72%3A552%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1318)

and

3 1/2 Blue LED Digital AMP Panel Meter + Shunt AC 20A - eBay (item 370075393653 end time Aug-09-08 10:14:28 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/3-1-2-Blue-LED-Digital-AMP-Panel-Meter-Shunt-AC-20A_W0QQitemZ370075393653QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item3 70075393653&_trkparms=72%3A552%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14.l1318)

No 3A meters, but they have 2 and 5.

6. 12 Cinch-Jones male and female plugs. The female are panel mount, the male are cable mount.

Any recommendation on where to acquire these?

That should take care of all the goodies needed to construct the modules. Let me know if any help is needed sourcing the items.

I will post pictures and details of the metal needed for the mainframe construction. You can pick that stuff up locally.

A couple of nice items to have if you think you are going to be playing around with LEDs are a variable voltage/current adjustable power supply with a digital readout... about $160. And an infrared remote thermometer... $60 to $150.

If I'm less innovating and more following, would I need these?



Thanks again

[Projman]

I don't seem to be authorized to check my PM page... Not sure if I haven't hit the critical # of posts yet or what...

[Projman]

Arctic Silver Alumina Thermal Adhesive (http://www.heatsinkfactory.com/arctic-alumina-thermal-adhesive-p-16298.html)

Is that enough Arctic Silver? I don't know if I need syringes or pails of the stuff.

God, I feel that I'm asking the dumbest questions. Please don't give up on me... :icon506:

[redline]

I am guessing 3 tubes of the artic silver adhesive. Be sure to get the adhesive not the grease.
.
For the heat sinks go to EBAy and enter "HEATSINK ALUMINUM EXTRUSION 8 1/2 WIDE PROFILE" into the search. Once you get to the ad contact the guy by message and tell you a whole slab chopped up just like I described.

[redline]

Proj, Do you have a digital multimeter?

[redline]

Proj,
I sent you a PM. Let me know if you get it.

[redline]

Correction on the parts list: Change the Cinch Jones plugs to 3 pin connectors instead of 2.

[stupefacient]

Red you have such a great handle on all of this. I'm really glad I found this forum.

I have a small discrete growing area ready and this will obviously work much better if I have less heat venting issues. Obviously I need to vent some.

So i'd like to take the plunge and see what comes of it. Use what "the collective" has for best data and go with it. Is there a recommendation for a system for a 2x3 ScrOG?

If there's a thought about using the secondary wavelengths to augment primary, I could go circular and rotate.

Thanks for any thoughts.

currently I have a 3'x18" cabinet with a procyon 100, 2 85 watt 3000k cfls and 3 10w 660nm spotlight arrays. I have 20 plants Scrog style in the cab. the procyon can't get the full 3' wide since I only have it about 12" above the tops( lack of space). I have the procyon in the center and then 1 cfl on each end. the plants that are the biggest are the ones receiving a good amount of the procyon and the cfls. However, the plants are all doing extremely well and I think I have comparable results to my 400w hps bulb in the same cabinet. they are almost as big as the hps, but they definitely have more trichomes and the buds are extremely dense. however, I don't think I would have the same result from just the procyon. the plants underneath the procyon are doing just as good as under my HPS, but It won't cover the same floor space as a 400w hps, as others have said. I think the procyon would do a 2'x2' cab good. I want to build another LED in the near future for in the cab and get rid of the cfl, but for now it works just fine. I have no air conditioner in my closet so using a HPS was out of the question this summer. therefore, I bought the procyon. if you have the money and understand what your buying I definitely recommend the procyon, but I believe you can build your own LED to work much better. if you have the time and know how.I have about 2-3 weeks left to grow and i'll try to get some pics soon.

also as far a grams/watt/month or whatever he said, I don't see how that is relevant. since it all depends on the type of plant you are working with. I may be wrong, but I thought breed had a lot to do with the size of the final product. at least that is what my experience has been. I think to really judge a hps and LED you need to compare g/w/m with the same breed preferably clones.

[redline]

You are right, yield can certainly differ from plant to plant and you would need clones to get a true comparison. .5 grams/watt/month is just a benchmark set in the Cervantes book in order to measure the effectiveness of your grow setup.
Also you do need some kind of defined numerical standard to compare experimental results. That is really no other kind of measurement that will work for comparision purposes besides g/w/m.

However, that does bring up a related issue. What kind of plants are going to do the best under LEDs? That's some more work that needs to be done.

Getting coverage with the brick type lamps like Procyn is a problem. You have to have them too far from the plants to get enough area. I personally think even 1 foot for LEDs is too far. That is about a normal distance for an HID light with a cooled hood.
If you can get your LEDs at 3 inches above the plants, Each LED delivers 16 times the power to the top of your plants compared to a 1 foot distance. You can also do away with focusing lenses since you really won't have too much wasted light.
If you can get the LED 1.5 inches above the canopy top, you will have 64 times the light power hitting the leaves. Of course you have to have the LEDs much more spread out.

I believe this is the major advantage of LEDs... getting them right on top of the plants. I seem to be in a minority with this opinion. All the commercial units concentrate their power on a small platform and expect the grower to have them 1 to 1.5 foot above the plants. I am taking some pictures tonight and will have them posted tomorrow.

By the way, don't be in a hurry to dump the CFLs. So far, the LED/CFL combo seems to be working much better then either CFLs or LEDS by themselves. In that configuration, they seem to be on par with a comparable wattage HPS.

[redline]

Here is first pic of new project. This is the basic layout showing the frame and module placement. Each module will be moveable in the X,Y and Z axis. Some will also have a tilt or angle adjustment.

[stupefacient]

Redline,
I agree spreading the LEDs out will get much better results than a brick light. also, your light looks awesome and can't wait to see your results. heres some picks from my grow if anyone is curious.

[redline]

Stup,Were those grown completely with the Procycn? They look really good.

Next step in the construction. Using 1 1/2" wide by 1/8" thick aluminum. I cut 3 long strips. The LED arrays will be attached to the brackets by the threaded adjuster.

Next, I cut two shorter strips. The power jacks will be mounted on these strips.
They will help support the longer mounting strips.

[redline]

For some reason the forum is not letting me upload latest pics.

[redline]

Got the pics to upload. 1st one shows the long strips for mounting lights. The second pic shows the shorter support crossbars.

[redline]

lets try again.

[Opie Yutts]

OK, what are we talking about when we say spreading out the light? Are you saying 2x 50w is better than 1x 100w? Depends. You've got 100 watts illuminating one spot on your plant. That spot is getting good light, and other spots are getting marginal light. Now you divide that 100 watts into 2, and put one 50 watter on each side of the plant. Now 2 spots are getting half the light that one spot was getting. Which way will make the plant yield more? I'm betting same same. Kinda like topping makes more bud sites, but they are smaller so the end result is the same.

I could be wrong. It happened once before.

[Nebulized]

Ok I am looking into this. I am building closet set up, HID seems like a bad idea. So LED is the better selection. My area is only 2' X 3'. It seems like you are building them for a wider area then I will be dealing with. What size would you recommend? I would also like to have a wider light not a brick light, but i am not sure it would make a difference in this small a set up. There seem to be some serious obvious advantage to LEDs, at least for a cabinet/closet grower. Now I haven't bought anything, I want to design the system then buy the parts(get a solid concept of what I want).

You keep talking about putting things an 1 1/2", but if you do that a lot of the light energy for the bottom leafs would/could not be used. It is the same concept of you can have /light\ (wide) or you can have [light] very focused(which is what you are doing). Light reflect off the leaves and putting it a small distance(4'-6'?) away would be more effective it would seem. I guess what I am saying is that you can't over focus you light to much otherwise it would over shadow everything else? I don't think anyone has brought that up.

Maybe it would be better if you had more of a canopy top? That is why a goalie in soccer charges the player shooting because it makes the goal smaller. You are doing the same thing, by focusing to much light close you really aren't covering a wider area. Unless you have both blue and red light in each small section, which would take butt load of lights. (Maybe I am picturing things wrong?)

Also have you to taken into consideration too much of anything is bad(64 X the light, righteous)? A plant can only work so hard effectively? If they could work that hard would you need to keep close track of the water/nutrient level, it would drink a lot faster? Would this change nutrients up any? It seems doing a lot of these things would in effect only speed up growth not necessarily so much on yield(though there would be a small increase)?

You do have far more knowledge of LEDs, so I will listen to what you say these are just things I have questions about. Sorry for the twenty questions. I have been reading and understand some things, I need to know a bunch more before I get buying let alone building.

[redline]

I dunno! I don't think anyone really has a handle yet on LED growing (including me). It is going to take a while to get thinks optimized. At this point we are all just screwing around, having fun.

I think a very flat growing surface is what is going to work with LEDs tThe penetration ,even on the best of them, suck. The reason I am placing lamps very close to the plants is because K2s have a very wide viewing angle of 160%.
Working with different viewing angles will play into your design. If I was using Crees with a 90 degree angle, I would probably have the lamps a couple of inches higher. Or if I was using a 30 degree lenses, the design parameters change again.
The array I am building now, will have 2 different types of lamps in each half so I can do some comparisons of different light angle and drive current.

Yup, I tend to agree with you regarding light on a single plant, no free lunch.
My designs are going to be more geared towards a green carpet as opposed to discrete plants like in the SNSealth initial grow.

[stupefacient]

[quote=redline]Stup,Were those grown completely with the Procycn? They look really good.

Not completely with a procyon. I have a 3' wide cabinet so I put 1 85 watt CFL on each end. But, the plant in the pictures is directly under the procyon and doesn't get any direct light from the cfls, but it gets some indirect light from them. also, they were vegged under cfl while I was waiting on the procyon. I think a 22" x 18" cab would be good with the procyon only. otherwise you need to put the procyon too high from the tops. I have 7, 5", pots across the 3' span. and the pots on each end don't get much light from the procyon at about 10" from the tops.

[Opie Yutts]

Placement should depend on lens angle, and I agree with redline that closer is better.

[redline]

I have seen some very good results with CFL/LED combinations. You might try leaving the Procycn at 10" and filling in with CFLs.

[Weezard]

I have seen some very good results with CFL/LED combinations. You might try leaving the Procycn at 10" and filling in with CFLs.

That's not a bad idea, Just finished a pure LED grow.
The concept is proven.
I'm gonna throw a 42W CFL at one of my flower girls that's 4 weeks in and see if it beats the last crop
Got 2 girls scrogged together and one of them is lagging.
I'll point the CFL at shorty,
At the least, it can't hurt

Thanks for the wake-up
Weezard

[SnSstealth]

ah.....The Perfect Elusive Equation...

Oh to be able to know what x is huh? xLEDs at x distance at xNm + xW CFL at x in from plants.
PLEASE GUYS!!!! Figure this out...Im countin on ya'll to answer this shit. My ass is trying 3 Procyons with 4 40W 3000k T12s now...Seems to be doing better than without the T12s, so who knows...
I agree we are not at 100% efficiency with LEDs alone yet...But we are getting there.
whiskeytango



VEEEERY medicated....:joint1:

[Weezard]

ah.....The Perfect Elusive Equation...

Oh to be able to know what x is huh? xLEDs at x distance at xNm + xW CFL at x in from plants.
PLEASE GUYS!!!! Figure this out...Im countin on ya'll to answer this shit. My ass is trying 3 Procyons with 4 40W 3000k T12s now...Seems to be doing better than without the T12s, so who knows...
I agree we are not at 100% efficiency with LEDs alone yet...But we are getting there.
whiskeytango
VEEEERY medicated....:joint1:


No gotta be perfect, brah.
Just gotta be good enough, ya?

Usin' less dan half da power,
built some LEDs an' gruesome flowers.:)

Overmedicated,
Sunday Weeze.

[redline]

GOt a chance to do some more of the metal work. All this drilling, cutting, grinding, tapping really sucks up the time.

I needed to cut one more of the short supports from the 1/5 inch strap. This will be the only center support. The other two short straps will only be used for power delivery.

Picture shows the detail for end screw locating peg for the long straps that will support the light modules.

[redline]

I am going to try and do as much mechanical work as needed on the individual modules before mounting LEDs. However, I am sure I will forget something and have to make some retro mods.

I hack sawed 1/4-20 threaded rod into 7 inches lengths. Then tapped a hole towards the center to the heat sink. This will be the vertical adjusting rod. Adjustment range will be slightly over 6 inches.

[redline]

I am going to set up all modules where I can easily add on an adjustable bracket. This will allow me to mount a fan directly on the heat sink, incase area cooling is not adequate.
And/Or it will let me tilt the light up to 60 degrees. I only foresee using the tilt feature along the borders of the grow, when I want to direct the light inward.

[redline]

whoops, forgot pic

[stupefacient]

redline do you ever use stars or do you just use the regular lights. I ordered 10 3w red stars on ebay to play with, China knock offs. I was gonna order a piece of the aluminum heatsink on ebay, but had no idea how big of a piece I would need or want him to cut. do you have any suggestions? thanks

[stupefacient]

I am guessing 3 tubes of the artic silver adhesive. Be sure to get the adhesive not the grease.
.
For the heat sinks go to EBAy and enter "HEATSINK ALUMINUM EXTRUSION 8 1/2 WIDE PROFILE" into the search. Once you get to the ad contact the guy by message and tell you a whole slab chopped up just like I described.

I was looking at the adhesive. I don't know if it matters, but the artic silver is not fully electrically insulated, some LEDs need to be insulated from the heatsink. if you buy the artic aluminum adhesive it is fully electrically insulated.

also, someone said the heatsinks are not available now, but if you type in just "extrusion heatsink" in ebay you will get the heatsinks redline is talking about. if you buy from him make sure you get the "large" one and tell him to cut to your size. its like 3' wider for the same price. the large is 8.5 x 12" and the other is 5 3/8 x 12 for the same price.

[redline]

I use both stars and bare emitters. My preference is with bare emitters since they are cheaper and I avoid an extra thermal barrier.

I mount emitters with artic alumina adhesive. Stars you can mount with any good grease like artic silver since most have most have slugs that are electrically inactive.

On emitters, you can also use arctic silver adhesive (not the grease). Like the alumina it is also a non-conductor. I believe the difference between the alumina adhesive and the silver adhesive is less of a capacitance effect. This has no bearing on LED applications.

For heat sink size, you need 9 square inches per watt of conductive surface with no fans.
I got some more pictures which I will post in a day or two. Progress is painfully slow.

[stupefacient]

I went to order some LM317's and I found all different knids. they have lm317T, AT, A, AEMP, AEMPX, etc. is there a difference in how they work or just the design. Also, what gauge wire should I use to wire 3w LEDs. if I use artic silver grease on a star will this hold the LED to the heatsink or do I need to use the adhesive to keep it attached? sorry for all the questions.
thanks

[Weezard]

I went to order some LM317's and I found all different knids. they have lm317T, AT, A, AEMP, AEMPX, etc. is there a difference in how they work or just the design. Also, what gauge wire should I use to wire 3w LEDs.
thanks


Aloha Stupefacient

Get da beeg one.:)
You want the T0-220 package
(three terminal with case for mounting on a heat sink)
And 20 gauge will work jus' fine for under 1 ampere.
Actually you could use 22 gauge for short runs. Easier to solder.

Regards, Weezard

[Weezard]

I went to order some LM317's and I found all different knids. they have lm317T, AT, A, AEMP, AEMPX, etc. is there a difference in how they work or just the design. Also, what gauge wire should I use to wire 3w LEDs.
thanks

"Can not display page" <Grumble grumble.>
W.

[redline]

Stup, you need to us a couple of screws to hold the Star to the heat sink.
That means drilling and tapping a couple of machine screw holes. They also have some self-drilling and self taping metal screws that might work. I bought some but have never tried them.

[Weezard]

Stup, you need to us a couple of screws to hold the Star to the heat sink.
That means drilling and tapping a couple of machine screw holes. They also have some self-drilling and self taping metal screws that might work. I bought some but have never tried them.

Aloha RL

I used self tapping, copper plated screws in an aluminum htsnk for my last light.
As long as the hole size is right, they work a treat!
Sure beats tapping copper.

Ciao,
Weezard

[stupefacient]

sorry for all the basic questions, but I have another one. I tried finding the answer online but no luck. I want to wire 10 in series. my question is do I just solder to one positive and negative pad or to both of them? I attached some pics with different examples I found online, but wasn't sure which one to use,

Thanks

[Weezard]

sorry for all the basic questions, but I have another one. I tried finding the answer online but no luck. I want to wire 10 in series. my question is do I just solder to one positive and negative pad or to both of them? I attached some pics with different examples I found online, but wasn't sure which one to use,

Thanks

The positives pads are connected to each other on the star, as are the negative pads, so use whichever pad is easiest, or looks better, it does not matter. But just one of each will work fine.
I'd suggest that you wait and get them soldered before you glue them down, though.
Line things up and cut n strip the wires, then remove the stars from the heatsink and do your soldering, then screw, glue them to the heatsink.
If you glue them down first and then try to solder, you will need a honkin' big iron and some patience.
Don't ask me how I know:(

Havin' fun yet?
Weezard

[Weezard]

sorry for all the basic questions, but I have another one. I tried finding the answer online but no luck. I want to wire 10 in series. my question is do I just solder to one positive and negative pad or to both of them? I attached some pics with different examples I found online, but wasn't sure which one to use,

Thanks

:wtf::wtf: That third picture makes no sense.:wtf::wtf:

Weeze

[stupefacient]

thanks weezard. I didn't think the 3rd picture made any sense that is why I asked you guys.

[yourguitarhero]

hi,
i am looking to build a similar set up to mcqueen and b0fin but have no way of contacting them. Have another thread started here -

Designing an LED grow light - GreenPassion.org - Dedicated to Medicinal Cannabis Cultivation and Education. (http://www.greenpassion.org/f75/designing-led-grow-light-14265/)

which seems to be current and am about to invest in some cree or K2s only wondering which are better.

also have seen these pop up recently on ebay and am wondering if they look like a better new technology to use? Here is my original question -

Before I go ahead and stock up on Crees or K2s (any idea which is preferable?)
has anyone seen these going? I am trying to find out who manufactures them but all I've seen so far is what is on ebay. Check out -

1x High-power brightness 10W RED LED 260Lm Save Power7V on eBay (end time 24-Sep-09 14:49:29 BST) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1x-High-power-brightness-10W-RED-LED-260Lm-Save-Power7V_W0QQitemZ180400471098QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK _BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET?hash=item2a 00b4bc3a&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

or

1 PC BRIGHTEST 25W WATT HIGH POWER WHITE LED 1400 Lumen on eBay (end time 26-Sep-09 11:38:00 BST) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1-PC-BRIGHTEST-25W-WATT-HIGH-POWER-WHITE-LED-1400-Lumen_W0QQitemZ370245234637QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_B OI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET?hash=item5634 55efcd&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

Could these be the latest technology that I have been hearing rumours of?


any contact on this appreciated. go via the original thread i posted if this one is dead
ta
j