Clinton, Obama on collision course tonight

[Psycho4Bud]

The demolition derby that now defines the Democratic presidential primary race looks headed for another smashup tonight when Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Sen. Barack Obama meet for a debate in delegate-rich Pennsylvania, site of the nation's next big primary on Tuesday.

With the Democratic presidential hopefuls locked in open warfare as the last primaries wind down and the battle for delegates heats up, the questions now are: How much intra-party bashing will voters tolerate, and how much will the Republicans benefit?

Although past one-on-one debates between the New York and Illinois senators have been virtual lovefests, the terrain is different this time because Clinton is running out of room. Many political observers believe she must put the pedal down hard tonight if she hopes to convince all-important superdelegates that she alone has the muscle to take the Democratic fight on to the general election.

"It has been an enjoyable primary season," laughed Sacramento-based GOP strategist Rob Stutzman on Tuesday on the recent developments that have had Obama and Clinton pouring on the vitriol in the last week. Between the brouhaha over the "bitter" comments from Obama in San Francisco and the beer-and-gun-loving displays by Clinton as they have courted Pennsylvania voters, Stutzman notes, the Democratic presidential contest is "becoming the political equivalent of Vietnam. At some point, one of them catches a helicopter off the roof, but it's not clear who it will be - and how it will happen."
Clinton, Obama on collision course tonight (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/04/16/MN8O105U8M.DTL)

LMAO! "The political equivalent of Vietnam"....kind of fitting since the left seems to be experts on quagmires.

Be sure to tune into this one.....should prove to be interesting!:thumbsup:

Have a good one!:s4:

[Psycho4Bud]

Anybody else watch this? For ONCE they actually went after Obama on his "friends" and attitude; Rev. Wright, William Ayers, etc.. IF he's their candidate he'd better buck up for the future on these issues, he didn't handle it well at all.:D

Clinton was licking her lips for about the first hour.:thumbsup:

Have a good one!:s4:

[Psycho4Bud]

Poor lil' Barrack, since he got picked on FOR ONCE he's now apparently stating that he won't debate again. The same assclown that wants to speak to the leaders of Iran and Venezuela can't handle a tough moderator in a debate?

Have a good one!:s4:

[Nailhead]

you sure do complain a lot, why don't you run for president?

[Psycho4Bud]

you sure do complain a lot, why don't you run for president?

Not complaining...just stating facts. As for running for any office, lol, IF there is a heaven I'd like to think I'm going to make it past the gates.:thumbsup:

Have a good one!:s4:

[jamesia]

You aren't stating facts, you're stating your opinions. The reason Obama isn't debating again is because it took 45 minutes for the moderators to finally ask a question pertaining to an issue.

If you can believe it, one of the questions asked of Obama was, "Does Pastor Wright love America as much as you do?" That question literally made me laugh out of my seat because it's so ridiculous... then I realized they were serious about asking it.

They were all ridiculous questions. Again, he was asked if he really is patriotic even though he doesn't wear a flag pin. Well, I personally don't wear a flag pin, but I'm a veteran... so obviously I love the country. I don't think the questioners from ABC were wearing flag pins, so obviously they're all America hating commie terrorists!!! Are YOU wearing a flag pin? I sure hope so! Ridiculous...

[Psycho4Bud]

This person, like the rest, are running for the top office of the United States which means that their professional and personal lives are on the table for all to see and evaluate.

Obama's Wife: Not proud to be an American until "08"
Rev. Wright: God Damn America....the U.S. of KKK A. , besides his other trash. All this BUT remained a member of the church?
Bill Ayers: "I don't regret setting bombs; I feel we didn't do enough."
....An early organizing meeting for Obama's state senate campaign was held at Bill Ayers house,
Lapel Pin: Won't wear it? Does this reflect on the company he keeps OR their attitudes regarding the U.S.A.?

I won't hang with skin heads because they are of a different mindset....I won't hang with cops because of the obvious reasons. We choose our friends based on people that are somewhat compatible to our own personal beliefs.

These were ALL valid questions but unfortunately Obama seems to feel that he is above public scrutiny. Kind of confirms the other candidates feelings about his "elitist" attitude.

Have a good one!:s4:

[daihashi]

This person, like the rest, are running for the top office of the United States which means that their professional and personal lives are on the table for all to see and evaluate.

Obama's Wife: Not proud to be an American until "08"
Rev. Wright: God Damn America....the U.S. of KKK A. , besides his other trash. All this BUT remained a member of the church?
Bill Ayers: "I don't regret setting bombs; I feel we didn't do enough."
....An early organizing meeting for Obama's state senate campaign was held at Bill Ayers house,
Lapel Pin: Won't wear it? Does this reflect on the company he keeps OR their attitudes regarding the U.S.A.?

I won't hang with skin heads because they are of a different mindset....I won't hang with cops because of the obvious reasons. We choose our friends based on people that are somewhat compatible to our own personal beliefs.

These were ALL valid questions but unfortunately Obama seems to feel that he is above public scrutiny. Kind of confirms the other candidates feelings about his "elitist" attitude.

Have a good one!:s4:

Honestly the only thing that really bothered me was the Bill Ayers issue. The guy admits to the crime, says he doesn't regret it and boldly states they should've done more. What more terrorist activities does he think should've occured and why does Obama surround himself with people like that.

I know if knew of someone who did that and had no remorse or regret that I wouldn't even look at them twice let alone call them friend or shake their hand.

All the other issues I such as if he believes in the flag (honestly I'm not even sure wtf that question means.) and the question about pastor Wright I felt ridiculous.

All the pastor Wright question was for was to set Obama up in a bad light. There was no right or wrong answer to that question. Anything that Obama would've said probably would've been twisted.

Really Dean is right. All these super delegates need to make their decisions before the Dem's tear themselves apart and make themselves look stupider than they already appear.

I'm looking forward to this election about as much as I looked forward to the Kerry/Bush Election of 2004.. BLEH!!

[jamesia]

Ayers committed the crime when Obama was like... 8 years old.

This whole bit of guilt by association would mean everyone - including you and me - would be unfit for office. Ron Paul takes donations from white supremacist and KKK groups... does that mean that he needs to quit running for office because of it?

Asking if Obama's pastor loves Americans as much as Obama does is absolutely ludicrous! It's a complete disservice to all of us citizens when ABC asks such ridiculous questions. How would you personally even answer such a question? If you go to church, can you tell me right now, without a shadow of a doubt, to what extent does your pastor, rabbi, whatever love America? No, of course not. You can assume, sure... It's just ridiculous.

It's more important to hear what exactly these people plan to do when they're in office. Do they plan on seeking medical marijuana legislation? Do they want to take all my money in taxes? What are they going to do with social security? etc etc etc ... I could give a rat's ass what they do in church, I'm an atheist and I think it's all bunk anyway.

As for the "elitist" claims... I'll take a cue from Jon Stewart from his show last night:

"Doesn't elite mean 'good?' Is that not something we're looking for in a president anymore? ... I know elite is a bad word in politics. You want to go bowling and throw back a few beers. But the job you're applying for---if you get it and it goes well---they might carve your head into a mountain. If you don't actually think you're better than us, then what the fuck are you doing? ... not only do I want an elite president, I want someone who is embarrassingly superior to me."
---Jon Stewart

[jamesia]

And by the way, Psycho4Bud, do you wear a flag pin... or are you an American hating terrorist??

This isn't a direct attack, I'm just pointing out how silly these attacks are. As a veteran, I love America, but I have one flag, and it's folded up in my closet. (I live in an apartment)

[daihashi]

Ayers committed the crime when Obama was like... 8 years old.

This whole bit of guilt by association would mean everyone - including you and me - would be unfit for office. Ron Paul takes donations from white supremacist and KKK groups... does that mean that he needs to quit running for office because of it?



So if you knew someone who was in the KKK, but is no longer.. however had been heard saying definitively that they absolutely hate black people and that they don't regret beating/killing them.. that their only regret is that they wished they could do more. Regardless of when they committed the crime, knowing that they still hold those sentiments would you really want to have that type of person in your life?

The point wasn't when he committed the crime. I can't fault Obama for that.. like you said he was 8 years old. What I can fault him for is running for Presidency and surrounding himself with less than patriotic people. People who want to do harm to this country. I do not think I would want a man like that in power.

That's not to say that he would do anything to harm this country, but when running for presidency everything is up for review.

If you've ever gotten top secret clearance or any form of government security clearance you would learn that it doesn't matter, everything is up for review including the company you keep.

The difference between Rob Paul and Obama is that there was plenty of Evidence showing that Ron Paul did not make those statements. It was in a news release letter for his supporters that was written by another person under Ron Pauls name. This had been gone over a few times by the media and I'm surprised you chose such a weak comparison for your argument.

On the other hand Ayers flat out said he wished he could've done more.. that he doesn't regret setting bombs. You can not compare the two at all.


It's more important to hear what exactly these people plan to do when they're in office. Do they plan on seeking medical marijuana legislation? Do they want to take all my money in taxes? What are they going to do with social security? etc etc etc ... I could give a rat's ass what they do in church, I'm an atheist and I think it's all bunk anyway.


Did you not see the debate between Clinton and Hillary. Both candidates looked like bumbling fools. I don't want McCain to win.. really I don't want any of these candidates to win but it looks like the second election in a row where we are forced to choose from sub-par candidates.



"Doesn't elite mean 'good?' Is that not something we're looking for in a president anymore? ... I know elite is a bad word in politics. You want to go bowling and throw back a few beers. But the job you're applying for---if you get it and it goes well---they might carve your head into a mountain. If you don't actually think you're better than us, then what the fuck are you doing? ... not only do I want an elite president, I want someone who is embarrassingly superior to me."
---Jon Stewart

The Stewart show is meant for political comedy entertainment. I'm sorry you take it seriously. Do you believe Colbert is serious too. Hate to burst your bubble but Colbert is a registered democrat.

I do no want an Elitist president no more than I want a sub par president. I want someone who see's what the majority of america (middle class) sees. I want a president who can handle foreign affairs through diplomacy instead of through aggressive acts. There are many things that I want; unfortunatley I don't think any of these candidates will be able to deliver. I'll have to choose between the lesser of two evils when the time comes.

[daihashi]

And by the way, Psycho4Bud, do you wear a flag pin... or are you an American hating terrorist??

This isn't a direct attack, I'm just pointing out how silly these attacks are. As a veteran, I love America, but I have one flag, and it's folded up in my closet. (I live in an apartment)

I agree that a good portion of the questions posed were pointless and ridiculous. I still think the Bill Ayers question was relevant and important.

This is a piss poor example just because it was poorly handled, but knowing what we know now about Bill Ayers and Obama let's say Obama was in office during 9/11. Do you think he may hold sympathies toward terrorists? He keeps repeating Bill Ayer is reformed, that he's a contributing part of society. Yet Bill Ayer displays that he still has those thoughts and tendencies and see's nothing wrong with harming his own country.

If Obama has no problem with his own countryman doing those sorts of things then why would he care if an outside terrorist did it. Maybe he'll feel eventually that terrorist will reform and become a contributing part of society. The "X" amount of lives lost aren't relevant.. right? :wtf:

[Psycho4Bud]

And by the way, Psycho4Bud, do you wear a flag pin... or are you an American hating terrorist??

Don't wear a pin but I'm not running for the highest position in the land either. Likewise, when/if I were to go to church if the Rev. started up with hate speaches I'd be out the door quicker than I walked in. NONE of my friends have ever been involved in acts of terrorism that have cost lives and even though my lady doesn't make $350,000 per year, she's never made statements regarding lack of pride in our country.

"Tell me what company you keep and I'll tell you what you are."
Miguel de Cervantes
Spanish adventurer, author, & poet (1547 - 1616)

Have a good one!:s4:

[Nailhead]

Nobody is perfect, but because the average voter is like Psycho4Bud, they have to do a damn good job at looking perfect. You act as if Obama has some deep dark secret that he will unveil the day he steps in office. Come on, use some common sense, the world isn't going to end if Obama becomes president. It might actually be a country worth being proud of again.

[Mr. Clandestine]

It might actually be a country worth being proud of again.

Spoken like a TRUE Obama fanatic (or spouse)! :D

[Psycho4Bud]

Nobody is perfect, but because the average voter is like Psycho4Bud, they have to do a damn good job at looking perfect.

OOOPS:
-Got a divorce in the past
-Got busted for a DWI
-Partied in their youth
-Had an affair

B.S.:
-Going to a church for 20 years being preached to by a racist
-Hanging with ex-terrorists that STILL haven't seen the wrong with it
-Having a big mouth wife that doesn't feel any pride in her country until late


I'm sure if this were McCain the left would have a COMPLETELY different view on the matter. If I recall, Rudy was taking some heat for alot less by the left wing.

Have a good one!:s4:

[Nailhead]

-Going to a church for 20 years being preached to by a racist
Haven't you ever been around black people when they talk? He really didn't say anything that shocking, come on!

-Hanging with ex-terrorists that STILL haven't seen the wrong with it
lol, you love using that scary terrorist word, don't you?

-Having a big mouth wife that doesn't feel any pride in her country until late
I'm sorry if you have problems with women speaking in public, I know that is an annoyance from the right, but you really should get used to it by now. Nothing wrong with not having pride in your country, if this country was perfect there would be no need to change it, now would there? Those that seek constant refuge in a piece of cloth are only fooling themselves from what really matters.

[Psycho4Bud]

Haven't you ever been around black people when they talk? He really didn't say anything that shocking, come on!

So all black people feel that this is the U.S. of KKK A? I have a few black friends that would differ.....I'll check that out later today for ya. LMAO!!!



lol, you love using that scary terrorist word, don't you?

Not me, ANYBODY that knows of Bill Ayers past. VERY glad that come out in the last debate!:thumbsup:



I'm sorry if you have problems with women speaking in public, I know that is an annoyance from the right, but you really should get used to it by now. Nothing wrong with not having pride in your country, if this country was perfect there would be no need to change it, now would there?

Nice twist but no. Nancy Reagon, Hillary Clinton.....both that were dragged across the coals but NEVER made an anti-U.S. remark like Mrs. Obama. There is nothing wrong with showing pride in your country but in my opinion; when you were born with a silver spoon in your mouth, she's a complete bitch to make this type of statement about FINALLY being proud to be a citizen.

Tell me what company you keep and I'll tell you what you are.
Miguel de Cervantes
Spanish adventurer, author, & poet (1547 - 1616)

Have a good one!:s4:

[boaz]

Honestly the only thing that really bothered me was the Bill Ayers issue. The guy admits to the crime, says he doesn't regret it and boldly states they should've done more. What more terrorist activities does he think should've occured and why does Obama surround himself with people like that.

I know if knew of someone who did that and had no remorse or regret that I wouldn't even look at them twice let alone call them friend or shake their hand.

Exactly. I was just a baby when the "Weathermen" were blowing up buildings in America, but I still know that if I ever met one of them my first reaction would be to punch them in the face, not shake hands and make friends with them. I don't understand why anyone would associate with a traitor and a home grown terrorist? Of course, it is prolly a non issue for the dems, Hillary was pretty radical back then, too. :silly:

[Nailhead]

There is no single, universally accepted definition of terrorism. There are many reasons for this (not the least of which is the cliche "one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter"). Even different agencies of the US government have different working definitions. Most definitions usually have common elements, though, oriented around terrorism as the systematic use of physical violence--actual or threatened--against non-combatants but with an audience broader than the immediate victims in mind, to create a general climate of fear in a target population, in order to effect some kind of political and/or social change.

Terrorism by nature is difficult to define. Acts of terrorism conjure emotional responses in the victims (those hurt by the violence and those affected by the fear) as well as in the practioners. Even the U.S. government cannot agree on one single definition. The old adage, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" is still alive and well. Listed below are several definitions of terrorism. For the purposes of the Terrorism Research Center, we have adopted the definition used by the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Source Link (http://www.terrorism.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index&myfaq=yes&id_cat=1&categories=General+Questions&parent_id=0#1)

FBI Definition of Terrorism:
The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a Government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.

CIA Definition of Terrorism:
The Intelligence Community is guided by the definition of terrorism contained in Title 22 of the US Code, Section 2656f(d):
The term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents.
The term â??international terrorismâ?� means terrorism involving the territory or the citizens of more than one country.
The term â??terrorist groupâ?� means any group that practices, or has significant subgroups that practice, international terrorism.

So by using the US governments own definition of what exactly it means to be a terrorist, we can clearly see that, by US military actions in Vietnam, we were conducting terrorist activities. Thus, McCain is a terrorist himself.

Obama doesn't seem so evil now, does he? :thumbsup:

[boaz]

i have a general definition of terrorism, and some idiots trying to blow public buildings would be in that definition. :thumbsup:

obviously other disagree. i can only speak for myself.

[Psycho4Bud]

So by using the US governments own definition of what exactly it means to be a terrorist, we can clearly see that, by US military actions in Vietnam, we were conducting terrorist activities. Thus, McCain is a terrorist himself.

Ya wanna see McCains numbers jump by double digits? Let the Dem candidate make this type of statement. Trying to bash a guy that spent 5 1/2 years in a P.O.W. camp being tortured......that would be GREAT for the G.O.P.!

Have a good one!:s4:

[boaz]

^ btw, i'm not trying to defend war, but violence, like the weather underground does not help anything. i really couldn't give a flyin f if Obama hangs with the dude or not. i don't need a weatherman to tell me which way Obama blows. :jointsmile:

[daihashi]

There is no single, universally accepted definition of terrorism.

So by using the US governments own definition of what exactly it means to be a terrorist, we can clearly see that, by US military actions in Vietnam, we were conducting terrorist activities. Thus, McCain is a terrorist himself.


I appreciate the time and effort put into this post, but you do realize you've contradicted yourself:


The term "terrorism" means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents.

Hrm.. Bill Ayers sets off bombs in places where noncombatant targets were.

I agree we shouldn't of been in vietnam, but they were armed Combatants.

Secondly maybe you should also look up the general definition of war.


Main Entry:
1war Listen to the pronunciation of 1war
Pronunciation:
\ˈwȯr\
Function:
noun
Usage:
often attributive
Etymology:
Middle English werre, from Anglo-French werre, guerre, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German werra strife; akin to Old High German werran to confuse
Date:
12th century

1 a (1): a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2): a period of such armed conflict (3): state of war b: the art or science of warfare c (1)obsolete : weapons and equipment for war (2)archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war2 a: a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism b: a struggle or competition between opposing forces or for a particular end <a class war> <a war against disease> c: variance, odds 3

We declared war on vietnam. It's not like no one knew it was going to happen. Terrorists don't announce their activities or bombings until after the fact.


Obama doesn't seem so evil now, does he? :thumbsup:

I've never said Obama was evil, Pyscho4bud never even said Obama was evil. What was said is that when looking at candidates you have to look more than what you see on the surface. If nothing else why don't you look at Obama's voting record (http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=9490) or lack there of. Check out the loads of NV.

Combine that with the company he keeps and defends... and well it might not mean he's a bad person but does it mean I necessarily want him running this country. Honestly in this crapshoot election where we have 3 turd balls competing against each other, I'm not sure it would really make a difference who got elected.

I've stated I don't like any of the candidates, Pyscho4bud has stated the reasons why they don't like Obama but you seem to be blindly defending Obama with no reason backing why you support him.

Let's forget this mudslinging mumbo jumbo going on between obama and hillary. All of that aside, take a look at obama's voting record. Do you really want to vote for someone who seems like they just don't care one way or another?

I found the following pretty humorous considering these bills are some of the things Barrack Obama believes in and stands for:

Barrack was a No Vote for reauthorizing or expanding the State childrens health insurance program. (http://www.votesmart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?cs_id=16159&can_id=9490)

Pretty sure he's pro-choice; figured he would've voted one way or another.. yet here's another no vote:

Vote to adopt an amendment that prohibits funds in the bill from being granted to organizations that perform abortions when a woman’s life is not in danger, unless the organization is a hospital. (http://www.votesmart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?cs_id=16080&can_id=9490)

ahhhh.. who cares about the farmers in the country.. No vote. Even more interesting is that the vote was 48-47. Barrack could've tied the votes up if he had voted the other way.

Vote to adopt an amendment that would grant subsidies to part-time farmers, ranchers, or foresters with an average adjusted gross income that does not exceed $250,000 and to full-time farmers, ranchers, or foresters with an average adjusted gross income that does not exceed $750,000 and would increase funding for certain programs. (http://www.votesmart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?cs_id=16708&can_id=9490)

Wow.. I can't believe he voted.. even more importantly I can't believe he voted no on the following:


Vote to pass an amendment that would prohibit undocumented immigrants convicted of aggravated felonies, domestic violence, stalking, violation of protection orders, crimes against children, or crimes relating to the illegal purchase or sale of firearms, from gaining legal status. (http://www.votesmart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?cs_id=13435&can_id=9490)

Let's promote across the border crime; even better let's promote crim, domestic violence, crime against children. Let's encourage these type of people to become citizens in our own country. :thumbsup:


fyi: You can find equally interesting data on all 3 candidates. I personally don't like any of the candidates but you better believe I won't blindly show support for a candidate just because they APPEAR to be less evil. Everyone.. and I mean EVERYONE should be going by a person's history. As far as I'm concerned the party they're associated with should not even be a issue.

[boaz]

i was not saying he was evil either, btw. :)

[daihashi]

i was not saying he was evil either, btw. :)

oh I wasn't referring to you. :thumbsup:

I get the impression you're similar to me in that you just wish people would be educated about the people they support. :)

[boaz]

oh I wasn't referring to you. :thumbsup:

I get the impression you're similar to me in that you just wish people would be educated about the people they support. :)

:thumbsup:

thank you for clarifying that but, no, i didn't think your post was refering to me. I don't think the original poster was referring to me, either, but I just wanted to make sure i was clear. Obama is no more evil than the rest of us. :D just kidding. :)

[Nailhead]

Ya wanna see McCains numbers jump by double digits? Let the Dem candidate make this type of statement. Trying to bash a guy that spent 5 1/2 years in a P.O.W. camp being tortured......that would be GREAT for the G.O.P.!

Have a good one!:s4:

So then are you saying by spending 5 1/2 years as a prisoner of war his actions are forgiven? If that is what you are saying, then I guess all those prisoners in Guantanamo are just as heroic as McCain, right?

Your problem, (as well as billions of others), is that you cannot stop looking from one perspective. War will never end as long as people stay ignorant and stubborn to the mentality of their enemies. I know you don't like hearing the truth too much, most people don't, but the fact is there are no rules to war. Terrorism is just another tool of war, no different than a laser guided missile, or serviceman piloting an aircraft to drop bombs.

War is war and is always evil, no matter how many times you pray to an invisible force or worship a piece of cloth, you aren't shedding yourself from unnecessary bloodshed. War is persistent because of stubbornness, ignorance, and of course, fear. As long as we let those emotions rule, there will be no peace, and the human species will become just another doomed evolutionary experiment during this very small and insignificant fraction of time in Earth's history.

By the way, when did I ever say I was an Obama supporter? If you actually think I expect change from any of the available candidates then you are greatly misunderstanding my thoughts on politics, but it's understandable that you would assume I support who I defend. That's a common assumption, all be it, a wrong one. Keep on smokin :jointsmile:

[Psycho4Bud]

So then are you saying by spending 5 1/2 years as a prisoner of war his actions are forgiven? If that is what you are saying, then I guess all those prisoners in Guantanamo are just as heroic as McCain, right?

Like I said, if the Dem candidate tries to make comparisons like this the GOP has the Whitehouse locked up.


Your problem, (as well as billions of others), is that you cannot stop looking from one perspective. War will never end as long as people stay ignorant and stubborn to the mentality of their enemies.

Likewise, if people stay in this mindframe regarding Al-Quada.....well, ya all have Carter I guess.

I don't care if your for Obama, Clinton or none of the above.....this logic has moveon.org written all over it and does nothing but aid the GOP in the end.

Have a good one!:s4:

[Nailhead]

I've never even clicked on moveon.org until you just now mentioned it, so don't try to dismiss what I said as if it's an ideology copied from some ultra liberal movement.

Because people like you are waiting to pick apart every small, insignificant, non-issue of a candidate, politicians are not able to be honest and speak the truth. People like you rip a politician if they aren't putting up a good act of being Mr. American. You expect perfection, and as a result, get deception. Then people complain and wonder why our leaders suck, is it really not that obvious why this happens?

The problem with politics isn't the "machine" as some call it, but it's the voters and media pundits that expect every candidate to act a certain way, talk a certain way, and believe a certain way. Is it really a surprise that acting and politicians go hand in hand?

[daihashi]

I've never even clicked on moveon.org until you just now mentioned it, so don't try to dismiss what I said as if it's an ideology copied from some ultra liberal movement.

Because people like you are waiting to pick apart every small, insignificant, non-issue of a candidate, politicians are not able to be honest and speak the truth. People like you rip a politician if they aren't putting up a good act of being Mr. American. You expect perfection, and as a result, get deception. Then people complain and wonder why our leaders suck, is it really not that obvious why this happens?

The problem with politics isn't the "machine" as some call it, but it's the voters and media pundits that expect every candidate to act a certain way, talk a certain way, and believe a certain way. Is it really a surprise that acting and politicians go hand in hand?


fyi you've still failed to address my post where I asked why you do or don't back a candidate instead of spouting off heresay I hear on every tv station, read on every website and see in every newspaper.

I asked a question that should be very important. Instead you seem to have disregarded it and continued on your attack on p4bud. You don't have to like someone's point of view/opinion but you should respect it as they are entitled to it.

I don't entirely agree with P4Bud but I respect their opinion and I agree with you that most of the topics listed at the debate were total crap and it was a circus/joke; however I can definitely tell I overall can not sympathize with your viewpoint as you seem to lack any real motive or reason for feeling the way you do or lashing out at others who don't agree with your way of thinking.

P4Bud has stated exactly why they like an do not like certain candidates, all you're doing is blindly attacking someone with no substance backing your attacks. Just mindless attacking from my point of view.

Did you see where I mentioned how many no votes Obama has in the senate? Or is that just another person picking apart an issue that really doesn't matter <sarcasm>.

I see no problem with the voters picking apart candidates. These people are running for the most poweful office in the nation. I want to know everything and anything about a candidate. I'm smart enough to filter the BS from what's relevant.

Flag pin - not relevant
Bill Ayers - terrorism = relevant issue

[thcbongman]

Ya wanna see McCains numbers jump by double digits? Let the Dem candidate make this type of statement. Trying to bash a guy that spent 5 1/2 years in a P.O.W. camp being tortured......that would be GREAT for the G.O.P.!

Have a good one!:s4:

What is a criminal to one country is a hero to another.

[daihashi]

What is a criminal to one country is a hero to another.

people always say that but it's not really relevant. Any person wanting to do harm to our country is an enemy against you.

So regardless if they're another countries hero, the fact remains that they are still seeking to do harm to us.

Look at 9/11. Do you honestly think the terrorists took the time to filter out what people stood for what issues before crashing planes into the twin towers. Nope, all they knew was that they did not like America.

So point being is this, regardless if you stand by what this country believes in or if you don't.. you should stand with your countrymen united against people who would wish to do us ill inside of our own country.

It could be you that get's hurt if it happens next time. I'm sure that would change your perspective on another countries hero, at that point the person would become a criminal who has done you wrong.

[Nailhead]

I was going to edit out that last little part of my post, could be taken as a condescending remark, although that wasn't my intentions. Damn you 10 minute timer for editing posts, damn you!

[Psycho4Bud]

I was going to edit out that last little part of my post, could be taken as a condescending remark

Condescending and not allowed on the forums.......please try again.

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[Psycho4Bud]

Because people like you are waiting to pick apart every small, insignificant, non-issue of a candidate, politicians are not able to be honest and speak the truth. People like you rip a politician if they aren't putting up a good act of being Mr. American. You expect perfection, and as a result, get deception. Then people complain and wonder why our leaders suck, is it really not that obvious why this happens?

Sorry if I feel that a future president should at least have associates that AREN'T domestic terrorists, hate mongers, etc... There are NO honest politicians or clean ones but we can make decisions based on how dirty they are. The last damn thing we need in the White House is somebody that's going to invite these type for a visit. Imagine, the same person that tried to bomb the White House now stopping in for a howdy? You can bet your ass come November people will be thinking the same about the Rev. Wright preaching "God Damn America" from the White House lawn.



The problem with politics isn't the "machine" as some call it, but it's the voters and media pundits that expect every candidate to act a certain way, talk a certain way, and believe a certain way. Is it really a surprise that acting and politicians go hand in hand?

No it's not...but I guess we found out that Obama is a lousy actor; we already knew that about Clinton.

Have a good one!:s4:

[thcbongman]

people always say that but it's not really relevant. Any person wanting to do harm to our country is an enemy against you.

So regardless if they're another countries hero, the fact remains that they are still seeking to do harm to us.

Look at 9/11. Do you honestly think the terrorists took the time to filter out what people stood for what issues before crashing planes into the twin towers. Nope, all they knew was that they did not like America.

So point being is this, regardless if you stand by what this country believes in or if you don't.. you should stand with your countrymen united against people who would wish to do us ill inside of our own country.

It could be you that get's hurt if it happens next time. I'm sure that would change your perspective on another countries hero, at that point the person would become a criminal who has done you wrong.

Sure, but the statement is an interpretation of a different point of view of an event.

Once upon a time the revolutionists were considered terrorists by the British. To us they're heros for emancipating the colonial states from Britain, but it doesn't mean some of the actions they took were morally right, but necessary to gain independence.

Speaking of Bill Ayers according to factcheck on AP, they first met in 1995, only knowing him as a professor teaching at the University of Illinois. From the sounds of you and psycho it made it sound like Obama took part on these bombings when the only established connections are $200 he donated to Obama's campaign, and a member of the Woods Board, a charity.

Fact Check: Obama’s Relationship with William Ayers - America’s Election HQ (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/04/17/fact-check-obamas-relationship-with-william-ayers/)

[daihashi]

Sure, but the statement is an interpretation of a different point of view of an event.

Once upon a time the revolutionists were considered terrorists by the British. To us they're heros for emancipating the colonial states from Britain, but it doesn't mean some of the actions they took were morally right, but necessary to gain independence.

Speaking of Bill Ayers according to factcheck on AP, they first met in 1995, only knowing him as a professor teaching at the University of Illinois. From the sounds of you and psycho it made it sound like Obama took part on these bombings when the only established connections are $200 he donated to Obama's campaign, and a member of the Woods Board, a charity.

Fact Check: Obamaâ??s Relationship with William Ayers - Americaâ??s Election HQ (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/04/17/fact-check-obamas-relationship-with-william-ayers/)

You're missing the point and are pointing material that's not really relevant.

The point is that Obama has no problems fraternizing with people who would wish harm on this country (Bill Ayers). While this in itself does not mean anything it does question his character. When you are up for election your character/demeanor/Ethics/Morals are all up on trial as well as your history.

Now with that said I don't think Obama as a bad person because of this, but I do feel it puts into question his character.

I guarantee you that he must've heard wind of Bill Ayers past as the information is well publicized.

Honestly I could even understand if Bill Ayers was just someone Obama had met once in passing. I considered that weak of a link between the two, but it was really bothering once Obama stated Ayers was reformed and respectable part of society now.. well that's what bothered me. Especially since Ayers has been quoted saying he doesn't regret what he did and he wishes he could've done more. That doesn't sound reformed or respectable to me.

Again I don't think he's the devil, but I don't like his voting record and I don't particularly like some of the back peddling I see or the question he leaves in his character.

With that said ALL the candidates have their flaws.. it's just a matter of finding the candidate who has the flaws you can deal with.

This election and the past 2 have been a joke. I just wish we would get some real candidates with solid voting records and a moderate outlook on things. Never seem to find politicians who lay right in the middle of it all anymore.

[thcbongman]

You're missing the point and are pointing material that's not really relevant.

The point is that Obama has no problems fraternizing with people who would wish harm on this country (Bill Ayers). While this in itself does not mean anything it does question his character. When you are up for election your character/demeanor/Ethics/Morals are all up on trial as well as your history.

Now with that said I don't think Obama as a bad person because of this, but I do feel it puts into question his character.

I guarantee you that he must've heard wind of Bill Ayers past as the information is well publicized.

Honestly I could even understand if Bill Ayers was just someone Obama had met once in passing. I considered that weak of a link between the two, but it was really bothering once Obama stated Ayers was reformed and respectable part of society now.. well that's what bothered me. Especially since Ayers has been quoted saying he doesn't regret what he did and he wishes he could've done more. That doesn't sound reformed or respectable to me.

Again I don't think he's the devil, but I don't like his voting record and I don't particularly like some of the back peddling I see or the question he leaves in his character.

With that said ALL the candidates have their flaws.. it's just a matter of finding the candidate who has the flaws you can deal with.

This election and the past 2 have been a joke. I just wish we would get some real candidates with solid voting records and a moderate outlook on things. Never seem to find politicians who lay right in the middle of it all anymore.

There's no missing the point. Many people are blowing the whole thing out of context in terms of character. There's too much overvaluation on character and not enough in performance. The Bill Ayers quote is especially out of proportion because the quote has been spliced and came from an article which is essentially selling his book. There is profit motivation involved. As far as the facts are concerned, Bill Ayers is a productive member of society being a university professor when Obama has known him.

Stick a fork in Obama tho, he's done because people don't look at facts, they look at emotions when making their decision. There's no doubt McCain will milk this issue whether with Obama or Hillary (when Bill Clinton pardoned 2 weathermen will come into question if Hillary is nominated.)

[daihashi]

Stick a fork in Obama tho, he's done because people don't look at facts, they look at emotions when making their decision. There's no doubt McCain will milk this issue whether with Obama or Hillary (when Bill Clinton pardoned 2 weathermen will come into question if Hillary is nominated.)

uhh don't look at the facts? How many times have I pointed out obama's voting record? I even provided links to it.

Several people in this thread whom I will leave unnamed have chosen just to argue for arguments sake instead of providing relevant evidence with references to back it up.

How is anyone supposed to take them seriously.

And yes you did miss the point entirely.

Just because a crackhead smokes crack, or a meth addict does meth it doesn't mean they would necessarily do something bad if elected as president. Sure he may never sell government secrets if elected, but it doesn't mean the possibility isn't higher because of it.

Now I ask you, despite that, would you want a heavy meth/heroin addict (currently addicted) in the most powerful office in the nation? Especially if the opposing candidate is not a crackhead/heavy drug abuser.

Situation is a bit different but the concepts are the same.

I accept everyone for who they are but it doesnt necessarily mean that I want them inside my home. Make sense?

If not then I give up because some people just can't see what's right in front of them. I used to be the same way between the ages of 18-23 or so.

I've yet to see one person who's been supporting obama to counter the voting record issue that I stated several times throughout this thread.

To me this seems to indicate there is no rebuttal, that the people on the forum supporting obama are not educated/informed on his political background, or they just find it easier to argue rather than provide evidence.

Again I have to say this again because I get the impression that some Obama supporters think I'm bashing him. I'm not, I'm simply stating his past and how I perceive his character. There aren't any Hillary or pretty good Mccain threads for me to jump in on and state their obvious flaws. At least no threads that interest me.

I don't like Hillary or McCain either. This entire election is a joke, just like 4 years ago.

[Nailhead]

But actually what I said wasn't condescending or offensive, I just had a feeling it would be taken that way, so to avoid changing the topic I was going to edit one small irrelevant comment out, not the entire post as you felt was needed. :rolleyes:

Calling the Vietnamese "armed combatants" is an idiotic comment for anyone to make, that's nothing personal. Anyone with a gun can be considered an "armed combatant". The majority of American citizens can be considered "armed combatants" for simply owning a gun. The Vietnam war was an ideological war against communism, it wasn't a war against a threatening country. Russia was our threat, not Vietnam, but our politicians didn't have the balls to go to war with Russia, so instead we go to war with one of their piss poor allies in an attempt to fight against the communism ideology. I should also point out that much of the weaponry came from Russia, so Russia was essentially arming and feeding a poor country that didn't know any better. Demonizing the Vietnamese is a pathetic way of justifying our actions against a country caught in the middle of two highly militarized nations.

Obviously that war failed, and a lot of innocent Vietnamese died because of it. Ideological wars can never succeed, our war against communism ended with the self implosion of Russia, but communism still exists today and we have managed to live at peace with these differences in ideologies. The same is going on with terrorism, the war on terror is another ideological war. Just like communism, terrorism is not something that can be won militarily. No matter how evil we try to paint our enemies, this war will never end because of our military might. That only emboldens our enemy and makes them stronger and more united against us.

The very word terrorist is a loosely used word tossed around like we tossed around the word communist, it's another modern day witch hunt. Anybody can be labeled as a terrorist, or a sponsor of terror. These loosely defined words are used as justifications for the horrors we commit against non-threatening people in the world. So as I pointed out with my McCain example, ANYBODY can be considered a terrorist, even someone who obviously loves his country and would never want to intentionally cause harm to his countrymen. So making any connections to Obama and terrorism is completely ridiculous and idiotic, just as my connection of McCain to being a terrorist was idiotic had I been serious.

If you disagree, then I'd love to hear you explain how Obama can be compared to the same mentality that caused a group of alienated people to fly commercial jets into buildings full of innocent people. If you honestly believe any presidential candidate, such as Barack Obama, can in anyway sympathize with people like that, then I'd love to hear your explanation of how those two mentalities have any connection at all. Or will you do as you normally do, and just remove my posts when you can't argue against it?

[Psycho4Bud]

But actually what I said wasn't condescending or offensive, I just had a feeling it would be taken that way, so to avoid changing the topic I was going to edit one small irrelevant comment out, not the entire post as you felt was needed. :rolleyes:

Actually I would have IF we had the edit option for user posts in here. People in here aren't "idiots" and that type of insult is no longer allowed. NOT my rules...the sites!

That gives me one of two choices....just delete the post and give a bit of a hint OR give an infraction which I'd just as soon not do. Either way would result in the same thing, deletion/closing of the post/thread. We ALL have our own beliefs and I believe we are all old enough to debate issues without insulting each other.

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[Psycho4Bud]

If you disagree, then I'd love to hear you explain how Obama can be compared to the same mentality that caused a group of alienated people to fly commercial jets into buildings full of innocent people. If you honestly believe any presidential candidate, such as Barack Obama, can in anyway sympathize with people like that, then I'd love to hear your explanation of how those two mentalities have any connection at all. Or will you do as you normally do, and just remove my posts when you can't argue against it?

McCain may be considered as a terrorist in Vietnam but he's considered a hero here in the states. Likewise, Osama and friends are considered hero's in their region but terrorists here. William Ayers is considered a terrorist, self admitted, in the states and the good Rev. Wright is considered a racist. I'm NOT saying that Obama is either but I do say he has a bad choice for friends and mentors. Makes ya think; Do birds of a feather tend to flock together?

Have a good one!:s4:

[Nailhead]

My post above points out how it WASN'T a personal attack, I would like to assume everyone is smart enough to understand calling a comment idiotic is not the same as calling a person an idiot, but some people don't always make that connection. This is normal and why I was going to edit out that comment so this topic wouldn't go into an irrelevant he said, she said argument, but thanks for taking it that direction and away from anything worth discussing.

Now, if you would like to get back on topic and argue against my points, be my guest. :thumbsup:

[Psycho4Bud]

This is normal and why I was going to edit out that comment so this topic wouldn't go into an irrelevant he said, she said argument, but thanks for taking it that direction and away from anything worth discussing.

To bad ya didn't. That edit feature works great! Keep it peaceful, not insultive, and you'll have no problems with posts in the future.

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[Nailhead]

That assumption is assuming Obama is too stupid to talk to people of different beliefs. I enjoy talking to people with different views than my own, so I don't see anything wrong with being friends with someone you call a terrorist. Another point is that you continue to use this word terrorist even after I have clearly pointed out how loose that word can be used. It makes me wonder if any of the 5 people visiting the politics section is even reading my posts, if not then I'm wasting my time.

[Nailhead]

To bad ya didn't. That edit feature works great! Keep it peaceful, not insultive, and you'll have no problems with posts in the future.

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

It wasn't insulting, how many times do I have to point that out to you? Again you ignore the substance of my posts because you can't argue against what I am saying regarding the topic at hand. Instead, you are trying to change the topic because that is all you can argue against.

So again, back on topic or do you want to continue this irrelevant discussion about nothing?

[Psycho4Bud]

It wasn't insulting, how many times do I have to point that out to you?

I'm done with this bullshit! Debate without the insults or find a site that goes for that. Easy enough. Your choice but from here on this line of discussion WILL be deleted and I'll only waste my time doing it for so long.

"Now go think about that for a little while before conjuring up an idiotic response"....this is insultive and not allowed in here not to mention it probably would have been the base for a flame war between you and the other member. IF this is your regular attitude, you may want to explore other sites.

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[Psycho4Bud]

That assumption is assuming Obama is too stupid to talk to people of different beliefs. I enjoy talking to people with different views than my own, so I don't see anything wrong with being friends with someone you call a terrorist.

I talk with people that hold other beliefs also...to a point. When/if they come across as racists I say GOODBYE! If they were to brag about acts of terrorism that resulted in setting off bombs that caused innocent people to die...once again GOODBYE!

``He says what he has to say as a politician. I say what I have to say as a pastor,'' Wright said in an interview with PBS's ``Bill Moyers Journal'' scheduled to air tonight. ``They are two different worlds.''
Bloomberg.com: Worldwide (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=acIHe1Xgd35k&refer=home)

As for the return of his controversial former pastor Rev. Jeremiah Wright who gave a recent interview to Bill Moyers and said Obama played politics in his response to the controversy, Obama said Wright's response was "to be expected".
Political Radar: Obama: Rev. Wright's Response 'To Be Expected' (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/04/obama-rev-wrigh.html)

Seems even the good Rev. thinks Obama is just playing politics regarding his statements.

Have a good one!:s4:

[DaBudhaStank]

..........I know I say this a lot on here but.....I'm still baffled why people are actually going to VOTE one of these terrible people into office. I mean, it's not like things are actually going to get BETTER in the U.S. I mean come on, let's face it, we are on a downhill slope that theres no fuckin' way out of. Regardless of who decides to sit their fat ass in the Oval Office (well, except Obama, he's pretty slim), we're going to continue being hated and no one in America will actually get along and get anything done.

The only real way for change is complete revolution, starting with everyone refusing to vote. Eventually we'd probably have to move on to armed resistance and invoke our 2nd amendment rights and establish our own state-militias. Thats what I'm banking on and expecting. Ugh, I sound like some backwoods Montana radical but I guess they have it right. I'm sorry, but if any of you REALLY think this election will cause any kind of good vibes, you're just silly. I'd like to pat you on the head.

[daihashi]

McCain may be considered as a terrorist in Vietnam but he's considered a hero here in the states. Likewise, Osama and friends are considered hero's in their region but terrorists here. William Ayers is considered a terrorist, self admitted, in the states and the good Rev. Wright is considered a racist. I'm NOT saying that Obama is either but I do say he has a bad choice for friends and mentors. Makes ya think; Do birds of a feather tend to flock together?

Have a good one!:s4:

You put it better than I could have.

People don't realize that we're not accusing Obama of anything but rather that we have to consider the company he keeps when thinking about choosing Obama for either the Dem party nominee or as our president.

That same sentiment holds true for both Hillary and McCain.

[Psycho4Bud]

WALLACE: ... don't voters have a legitimate interest in who you are and what your values are?

OBAMA: I don't think that the issue of Reverend Wright is illegitimate.
FOXNews.com - Transcript: Barack Obama on 'FOX News Sunday' - FOX News Sunday | Chris Wallace (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352785,00.html)

There was more to the answer but this pretty much states that even Obama feels that this should be an issue worth discussion.

Oh yeah, I find it a bit ironic that the dems feel it's o.k. to go onto FOX to clear their names but not to have a debate. :wtf:

Have a good one!:s4:

[thcbongman]

uhh don't look at the facts? How many times have I pointed out obama's voting record? I even provided links to it.

Several people in this thread whom I will leave unnamed have chosen just to argue for arguments sake instead of providing relevant evidence with references to back it up.

How is anyone supposed to take them seriously.

And yes you did miss the point entirely.

Just because a crackhead smokes crack, or a meth addict does meth it doesn't mean they would necessarily do something bad if elected as president. Sure he may never sell government secrets if elected, but it doesn't mean the possibility isn't higher because of it.

Now I ask you, despite that, would you want a heavy meth/heroin addict (currently addicted) in the most powerful office in the nation? Especially if the opposing candidate is not a crackhead/heavy drug abuser.

Situation is a bit different but the concepts are the same.

I accept everyone for who they are but it doesnt necessarily mean that I want them inside my home. Make sense?

If not then I give up because some people just can't see what's right in front of them. I used to be the same way between the ages of 18-23 or so.

I've yet to see one person who's been supporting obama to counter the voting record issue that I stated several times throughout this thread.

To me this seems to indicate there is no rebuttal, that the people on the forum supporting obama are not educated/informed on his political background, or they just find it easier to argue rather than provide evidence.

Again I have to say this again because I get the impression that some Obama supporters think I'm bashing him. I'm not, I'm simply stating his past and how I perceive his character. There aren't any Hillary or pretty good Mccain threads for me to jump in on and state their obvious flaws. At least no threads that interest me.

I don't like Hillary or McCain either. This entire election is a joke, just like 4 years ago.

1st for a record, I do want to say I do not support Obama in anyway. I think you are lumping me in the wrong catagory. When I made that statement I was speaking in general, not like "people that looks at facts will only vote for Obama." Voters tend to vote on their emotions rather than hard facts and the people that are associated with Obama tend to give voters pause due to their flaws on character. Rev. Wright is an example of such a polarizing figure.

With that said when you point to his voting record while it does show that he's not willing to take a stand on a lot of issues, a lot of those bills have earmarks added to that could have an entirely different outlook to the bill. It indicates he doesn't want to be politically trapped. In some ways it's crafty, but he'll take a hit because it's hard to solidfy his stances on issues.

With that said, I can agree with you on Obama's backpeddling. I don't like it either, especially on his statement refering to rural voters as "bitter." If he stuck with his guns rather than back-peddled, I would've respected him as a candidate a lot more.

However the question of character in association with Bill Ayers and Rev. Wright are blown out of proportion. Bill Ayers-Obama connection is at best a weak connection. When people speak of this connection as if it were solid, they haven't looked at the facts they simply listened to a commentators view of it and agrees with it.

I have a very good example of what I mean. Whether you choose to believe this or not isn't the point, but how would you associate my character.

When I lived in Switzerland I was in the same class with Kim Jong-Chol, the son of Kim Jong-il. At the time, I didn't know of his true identity. However, I was his friend and we hung out together just like kids would.

Now if I was running for president and this news came up, it would be painted in the exact way as Obama. I had ties with a dictator state that wanted to do harm against America would be the conclusion painted, exactly like the Bill Ayers story. Except it doesn't explain much. People are imaginative of how the connection to this person reflects what kind of character this person has when they fail to explore how strong this connection truly is.

[boaz]

. . . There's no doubt McCain will milk this issue whether with Obama or Hillary (when Bill Clinton pardoned 2 weathermen will come into question if Hillary is nominated.)

aaah! i knew there was a Clinton connection, just couldn't remember. thanks.