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Psycho4Bud
04-12-2008, 05:26 PM
MUNCIE, Ind. - Democrat Barack Obama on Saturday conceded that comments he made about bitter working class voters who "cling to guns or religion" were ill chosen, as he tried to stem a burst of complaints that he is condescending.

"I didn't say it as well as I should have," he said.

As Obama tried to quell the furor, presidential rival Hillary Rodham Clinton hit him with one of her lengthiest and most pointed criticisms to date.

"Senator Obama's remarks were elitist and out of touch," she said, campaigning about an hour away in Indianapolis. "They are not reflective of the values and beliefs of Americans."

At issue are comments Obama made privately at a fundraiser in San Francisco last Sunday. He explained his troubles winning over working class voters, saying they have become frustrated with economic conditions:

"It's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Obama concedes remarks were ill chosen - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080412/ap_on_el_pr/obama_clinton)

Hey "working class"......here's your hero!:mad: This statement is only a whisper away from his mentor Rev. Wright......but he really, really never heard the Rev. speak in that manner.:wtf:

Have a good one!:s4:

killerweed420
04-13-2008, 01:59 AM
Absolutely true what he said. Its just not politically correct to say it.

delusionsofNORMALity
04-13-2008, 03:42 AM
Absolutely true what he said. so you think that the working class is filled with racist hicks? the fact that the working class isn't falling for the platitudes of the nouveau-left is all that may save america from the stalinist ravings of obama and his ilk. the comment shows his true colors. he seems intent on having government intrude into every facet of our lives and revels in the concept of an american population dependent on bureaucrats and kept in comfortable poverty.


Its just not politically correct to say it.one of the few politically correct groups to demean is the working class. those that are actually trying to climb to some level of success are usually the preferred target.

Orzy
04-13-2008, 04:13 AM
I don't really see this hurting Obama too much. A large majority of the people that are going to be offended by this, when they shouldn't be in the first place*, are religious and do support guns. Two things that just don't mix with Obama's ideals. He's for abortion(pisses of the religious) and he doesn't like guns.

*Check out this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc9PepjyDow) video, he's reworded what he was saying and it sounds pretty good.

ldg420
04-13-2008, 09:28 AM
if he is a true candidate, then he will address these issues......:stoned:

ldg420
04-13-2008, 09:36 AM
^^^^ i honestly don't believe that Obama id the right candidate for the legalization OF HERB....NO MATTER HOW YOU LOOK AT IT.....:stoned:

Rusty Trichome
04-13-2008, 03:30 PM
*Check out this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc9PepjyDow) video, he's reworded what he was saying and it sounds pretty good.

Re-worded bullshit, is still bullshit.

the image reaper
04-13-2008, 04:45 PM
damn, seems like all these politicians are really just liars, that will say anything just to get more votes (there's a real surprise ;)) ... and then, change their stories in the next town, to get their votes, too ... 'professional liars that will tell you anything you want to hear' - sure doesn't sound like political 'CHANGE' to me, sounds like every damned politician I've ever heard (and, I'm old, been around for lots of elections) :jointsmile:

Orzy
04-13-2008, 05:12 PM
Re-worded bullshit, is still bullshit.

Be honest though, this didn't sway your opinion of Obama. You weren't supporting him to begin with.

Rusty Trichome
04-13-2008, 06:04 PM
Well, my opinions are well founded. Let's review...
"In 1995, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced her chosen successor, Barack Obama, to a few of the districtâ??s influential liberals at the home of two well known figures on the local left: William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn." (founding members of The Weather Underground)

The article continues..."While Ayers and Dohrn may be thought of in Hyde Park as local activists, theyâ??re better known nationally as two of the most notorious â?? and unrepentant â?? figures from the violent fringe of the 1960s anti-war movement.
Obama once visited '60s radicals - Ben Smith - Politico.com (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0208/8630.html)


In 2001, accepts donation from William Ayers, a founding member of The Weather Underground. Obama's Ties to Left Come Under Scrutiny - February 19, 2008 - The New York Sun (http://www2.nysun.com/article/71421)

The Weather Underground is a well-known violent left-wing terorist group, responsible for assorted bombings. And I quote: ""I donâ??t regret setting bombs," Ayers was quoted in the opening line of the Times profile; "I feel we didnâ??t do enough." In 1969, Ayers and his wife convened a "War Council" in Flint Michigan, whose purpose was to launch a military front inside the United States with the purpose of helping Third World revolutionaries conquer and destroy it. Taking charge of the podium, dressed in high-heeled boots and a leather mini-skirt â?? her signature uniform â?? Dorhn incited the assembled radicals to join the war against "Amerikkka" and create chaos and destruction in the "belly of the beast."
More about Obama's Weather Underground associate Re: Allies in War (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1978072/posts)
Sound familiar?

Then there's his association with Rev. Wright. Actually it was a 20 year tutelage in the fine arts of the Black Reformation Movement, who's bullshit sounds remarkably similar to the rhetoric espoused by the Weather Underground.

His extremely liberal voting record, his statements in regards to a "bitter" middle-America, and his consistent inability to recognize the divisivness that his associations with these people has created...has rendered him unacceptable to be president.

He is fighting the battles of good judgement, unarmed.

Orzy
04-14-2008, 12:17 AM
Yeah I mean.. Don't get me wrong you're entitled to your own opinions. You don't even need a reason to dislike him. I'm just saying stuff like this is going to give people that don't like him more stuff to not like him for, but for people that support him it wont make them think twice.

I don't believe this little incident is going to do much in the way of losing popularity for him.

jamesia
04-14-2008, 01:16 AM
It's pretty well documented that when people are down and out, they look for a scapegoat... almost always without even realizing it. So Obama pointed it out... but shit, so have many other politicians. Our economy is shit now, and NAFTA sent jobs overseas (and still does). People see that they have less jobs and are getting their benefits cut left and right and point to the illegals as a reason for there being less jobs (The Mexicans are taking our jobs!). But I can tell you this... I'm a chemical engineer looking for an engineering job in a manufacturing plant. There aren't that many of them because the jobs are getting shipped to China/India. Not to be racist (my boyfriend's Latino) but the Mexicans running across the border are not taking my engineering jobs. The corporate welfare government is still handing out tax payer money to corporations that shaft regular Americans by moving operations overseas, and it should stop. And you better believe I'm bitter about it.

This is just Hillary's way of trying to remain relevant, and McCain's joining in on the attacks against Obama in an effort to bombard him. But Obama is intelligent, this won't hurt him much, and he'll beat out Hillary eventually. And once it's known that Obama took down Hillary (who frankly scares the shit out of most Republicans) then Obama will be known as a force to be reckoned with.

Fencewalker
04-14-2008, 03:10 AM
Should have used a different word than "bitter" (and he's apologized for his wording), but otherwise I think his comments are spot on. ;)

Ask any Reverend or Minister and they will tell you in hard economic times more people show up to church.

Ask most former manufacturing employees and they will start talking about jobs being sent overseas.

Ask unemployed folks in a border state (or even midwest now) and they will start talking about illegal immigration.

This is much ado about nothing and probably won't last another news cycle or two...Unless the mass media wants it to. ;)

And nope...Not an Obama fan.

Psycho4Bud
04-14-2008, 03:21 AM
And once it's known that Obama took down Hillary (who frankly scares the shit out of most Republicans) then Obama will be known as a force to be reckoned with.

At one time Obama looked scary to the right but not anymore....in fact some would rather the Dems select him vs. Clinton. If Clinton isn't nominated more of a percentage of her people will cross over to the McCain camp than the Obama supporters would. That's just the first plus.......

Then we have such issues such as Rev. Wright, William Ayers, his wifes comments on "finally being proud of this country". That's what's come out so far on her. Nothing much said YET regarding her pay raise taking her from $120,000/year to $350,000/year when he became Senator. Nice part to that story is all the earmarks that the University system received in return.

LOL...then there is the "present" voting when he was in the state system and his "no vote"/not present voting record since he went Fed. He either doesn't take a stand or just doesn't show up for the job.

Have a good one!:s4:

bongerstonerd00d
04-14-2008, 02:48 PM
Then we have such issues such as Rev. Wright, William Ayers, his wifes comments on "finally being proud of this country". That's what's come out so far on her. Nothing much said YET regarding her pay raise taking her from $120,000/year to $350,000/year when he became Senator. Nice part to that story is all the earmarks that the University system received in return.
Have a good one!:s4:

You are implying that a 67% pay raise should be in question?:thumbsup:


b0nger

Psycho4Bud
04-14-2008, 06:14 PM
You are implying that a 67% pay raise should be in question?:thumbsup:

Why never! Isn't that the norm with any job? After a certain period they triple your pay.:rolleyes:

Considering that she is in the health care system in the University says alot about containing costs. Oh yeah, Obama is going to fix that system...no worries.

Have a good one!:s4:

boaz
04-15-2008, 11:49 AM
wonder what Obama was bitter about when he was sitting in church? :)

netdog
04-15-2008, 12:56 PM
damn, seems like all these politicians are really just liars, that will say anything just to get more votes (there's a real surprise ;)) ... and then, change their stories in the next town, to get their votes, too ... 'professional liars that will tell you anything you want to hear' - sure doesn't sound like political 'CHANGE' to me, sounds like every damned politician I've ever heard (and, I'm old, been around for lots of elections) :jointsmile:

What do yo expect?

Hillary and Barak are both lawyers, lawyers are professionally trained to twist the facts to their agenda and tell you what you want to hear.

That's what lawyers are supposed to do in court. I'm about ready for someone to propose eliminating lawyers from legislative office, that might get my vote..

thcbongman
04-15-2008, 11:34 PM
I think Obama is absolutely right when he said that working class voters are bitter. Damn straight they should be bitter, they get the least of government services and are ignored politically most of the time.

What Obama did is wrong. I'm sick of these politicians backing out of what was said. If Obama had some balls and say "yeah I said that" I would vote for him. At least he would have some courage.

Nope. Just a lawyer and a liar.

epxroot
04-16-2008, 12:10 AM
The Republicans piss on the middle class....so why not the Democrats? There is no difference between these two parties! They are all Elitist and only have the interest of Big Business and not the American People!

fishman3811
04-16-2008, 01:50 AM
Whether its Obama,Clinton or McCain they are all elitists they only look out for their kind and themselves.They dont give a shit about you or me and never will.The only time they pretend to give a shit is at election time.When the elections are over they will dig into your pockets and give to their buddies and themselves.If there is anything left over you might get a scrap once inawhile just to keep the poor folk from revolting.All canidates talk about change and how things will be better with them in charge,but nothing ever changes the poor keeps getting fucked and the rich keep getting richer.History does repeat itself whether you like it or not.......

daihashi
04-16-2008, 02:50 AM
First off let me say I do not like any of the potential presidential canidates that are up. With that said I don't feel Obama said anything wrong.

A lot of people I know are frustrated. I hate seeing the way our money is being spent... I hate seeing the way the economy is being handled... I'm sick of seeing the euro, british pound, and other monetary continue to soar above the dollar.

There are many other things I can go on about that I and many other people I know are frustrated about. Truthfully we do blame things. We blame the current president when maybe it should be a group of senators who got some kind of kick back for passing a crappy bill or tax. Maybe it is due to our declining export trade; making us overall weaker in the global trade market.

Point being we look for something. People always try to find the source of a problem. We are thinkers, problem solvers by nature. It is in this manner that we've evolved and progressed as a species. So in this it is natural that we, as humans, try to find a cause/source or scapegoat for that which we're discontent with.

Honestly I think Obama was right on the mark. The problem is that alot of people don't want to hear the truth if it's negative. Especially if they can relate to being part of that negativity as well.

netdog
04-16-2008, 01:59 PM
Well at least he's fair, he's said we need to understand why blacks are bitter, and now has said we need to understand why white working class folks are bitter...

He's really just trying to tell each of those folks what they want to hear, he just spat it out wrong.

Psycho4Bud
04-16-2008, 02:11 PM
and now has said we need to understand why white working class folks are bitter...He's really just trying to tell each of those folks what they want to hear.

"cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment"...........an honest man would have just said "White Trash" and be done with it. There's a reason why Obama and the good Rev. Wright were so close.

And what's with the "anti-trade sentiment" statement? Isn't Obama claiming that he was always against NAFTA? That was just for the TV viewers I guess.....his aids got that straightened out with the Canadians shortly after. :rolleyes:

Have a good one!:s4:

boaz
04-17-2008, 01:43 AM
. . . Nope. Just a lawyer and a liar.

:D no offense to my attorney or law friends, but . . . for some reason this comment reminds me of a line from some ganster movie where this one wise guy says to the other "He's a cop", the other one says "He's crooked?", and the first one says "What did I just say?" :jointsmile:

Fencewalker
04-17-2008, 07:02 AM
Personally, the following pretty well sums it up for myself and a lot of the folks that I know...

Obama, Bitterness, Fundamentalists and Guns
Media Shit Storms and Heartland Reality

By JOE BAGEANT

There seems to be no end to the media mediocrity we must suffer in this country. Now we have the Obama Guns, God and Bitterness shit storm, with the shit pouring forth from the same media scuppers (scuppers are outlet sewage blowholes on the sides of ships) as usual: The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Washington Post, CNN.com, the Associated Press, Fox News, Reuters, Politico, the Lou Dobbs Show, Hardball, Olbermann's Countdown, The Atlantic.com, The DailyKos, TalkingPointsMemo

And all because Obama mentioned something we've known for at least a couple of decades now: That the government has been fucking over the nation's heartland towns and the "little guy" Americans inhabiting them.

To quote Obama:

"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania and, like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. ... And they fell through the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate and they have not."

So what the hell else is new?

Then Obama adds:

"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

While not precisely correct, it's a good enough generalization for an American audience not really listening anyway. Obama's remarks were not in the least controversial and just plain boring in terms of content. Certainly not newsworthy.

Yet he had no sooner closed his mouth than this media manufactured hell broke loose. "Oh my gawd," they screamed. This guy has the unmitigated gall to suggest that their might be some bitterness out here in the lily white realms of Grant Wood, grange halls and Methodist church suppers! Right here in River City!" where the combination of God rhetoric and Chamber of Commerce boosterism have managed to ban the word from public discourse. Even the mention of it can be explosive, simply because there is so much if it stuffed inside working folks, inside the lockbox of denial that comes with being the citizen of a culture in collapse.

Put more simply, the self-serving "blogger-reporters" and Hillary Clinton media machine had managed to kick Obama in the balls from behind.

Along with the bitterness charges came the guns and God stuff. Well, we Red State rubes out here in the working world do own a lot of guns, though very few of us "cling" to them in the desperate sense the speech implied. As to what Obama described as our clinging to religion, we do not so much cling to it as it clings to us as a vestige of our heritage. It's neither a good nor bad thing in and of itself, but mighty damned useful to fear mongering politicians and the screen writers of television crime shows. Hell, even I made a few bucks writing about its nastier side in my book Deer Hunting With Jesus.

For me, listening to politicians talk, then listening to the media talk about politicians talking, rates right up there with swapping spit with a gingivitis victim. I do not like nor trust nor much listen to Hillary, McCain or Obama. And I wouldn't vote for any of the three even if they knocked on my door bearing a bucket of smoked pork ribs and a bottle of Jack Daniels. However, after hearing Obama's March "race speech," in Philadelphia, I can understand the Obama cult a little better. Although his speech was full of national clichés and meaningless soaring rhetoric, somehow it was still a goddamned good one, and right on in my opinion. Maybe I liked it because, like the poverty victim he brought forth in typical Democratic Pity Party fashion, I too have eaten mustard and relish sandwiches growing up (or when lacking those condiments, plain sugar on white bread.) I loved the speech. But I still ain't drinking the Kool-Aid.

In any case, Obama has proven you cannot even use the innocuous word bitterness in conjunction with the national lie of white American culture. In the officially sanctioned media lexicon, Blacks can be angry, disillusioned and even bitter enough to burn down Watts. But the white race, being blessed by a Christian god and divine providence, never harbor bitterness in their hearts. The reason the word bitterness has caused such horror is because what is really going on out there is the sprouting seeds of class animosity. And no candidate or pontificating media mugwump dares touch that one because they are in the class that benefits from our classist society.

I'm from Winchester, Virginia, the very kind of place and people Obama was talking about when the rotten tomatoes started hailing down. So allow me to say this: we white members of the sweating class have been working alongside laboring immigrants, legal and illegal, for decades and have not been killing them with our personal arms in a rage of antipathy, in so far as I know. The reason, near as I can tell, is that we do not give a happy shit one way or another because most of us do not have interest or knowledge enough to fester on the topic. Nor the time. When we fester on stuff, it's about making car payments and trying not to default on our mortgages. Working two and sometimes three jobs per household does not leave much time to develop political opinions, much less informed ones. I'd be willing to bet there is not a working class person within four blocks of where I now sit who has even heard of this media manufactured Obama fracas. Yesterday Smokey, the apartment maintenance man next door, helped me haul a dead washing machine to the city dump. I asked him what he thought about the Obama thing.

"Huh?" he said.

He spoke for millions.

Nobody out here that I know particularly "hates ni**ers", blames Mexicans or is willing to use their personal firearms against any of those people, unless they find one of them crack crazed and coming in through a bedroom window at 2 AM, in which case there will be a loud boom, and the perp is gonna look like a pizza splattered up against the wall. Otherwise we just stand before the incompressible system that fucks us blind. And in that there is certain bitterness.

Let's get to the nub of this thing here: Obama, Hillary and McCain are farting through silk while playing out their roles in our theatrical state's false drama called presidential elections, while smug and media sanctioned pundits snark from the edge of the proscenium arc of politics, each hoping to draw enough attention to have his or her own proscenium in that national cathedral of the American consciousness -- television.

Before too long this earth shaking "incident" will be drowned out by the accumulating noise of the election year. Then even the election's hoopla will all be wiped away when Oprah Winfrey, in one of her ever grander spectacles of televised largess, gives away the city of Detroit to the sixth grade author of the most heart rending essay on black poverty.

November is still seven months away. No normal person can stand, much less relish, seven more months of all this. But we will wallow in it all for the same reason a hog spends most of its life knee deep in shit. It has no other choice, it has plenty of company, and doesn't know any other way of life.

One of these days, when it comes to the thundering non-controversy of Obama's remarks, the blogosphere and the media may start asking the right kinds of questions. The kind Smokey asked me after I explained the Obama controversy to him:

"Who the fuck cares?"

Joe Bageant is the author of Deer Hunting with Jesus: Dispatches from America's Class War, from Random House/Crown about working class America. Bageant is also a contributor to Red State Rebels: Tales of Grassroots Resistance in the Heartland edited by Jeffrey St. Clair and Joshua Frank, forthcoming this spring from AK Press. A complete archive of his online work, along with the thoughts of many working Americans on the subject of class may be found at: Joe Bageant (http://www.joebageant.com). Feel free to contact him at: [email protected].
Source (http://www.counterpunch.org/bageant04152008.html)