advice please

[JeffersonBud]

Lets get to the details for veg
3 100w CFL's running 6500k
1 small 6inch fan
DWC system with 15 sites
Milwaukee 3-1 ph/ec/tds meter
2 and 1/2 gal of RO water
2 6'inch airstones
Rockwool cubes
net baskett

Strain
Northern Lights x AK47
Sugarberry (Widow x blueberry)
put into cubes 19 days ago
running 5.8 ph
140 TDS
Botanicare products
Pro Grow
Liquid Karma
Hydroguard
18/6 light cycle
temp is 72 degrees f
water temp is 70 degrees f

Things are looking ok so far. Good root growth in about half. White roots except where liquid karma attached. Some of the stems have turned red though. I just changed the nutes and water today. Before it was 110 tds and looking good. I want to introduce some cal-mag soon. Some of the new leaves are twisted and a bit warped. Leaves look a bit pale green but they are still young. Should i introduce more nutes or is 140 enough? are the red stems a nute deficiency because I dont think its a trait of any of the strains. What do you guys think?

Hope these pictures work

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[Weedhound]

By all means....start your CalMag asap. I start CalMag the first time I introduce nutes to my seedlings. You could raise their general number as well....but props for not pouring every thing you can get your hands on into your res and frying them. That's generally the biggest mistake folks make. :thumbsup:

Good luck.....sounds like you've really put some work into it.

PS....when your ppm drops like that (140-110) they're hungry! :)

[JeffersonBud]

Thanks a lot. I have tried this before but I did not have a PH or TDS meter. Big rookie mistake. I will introduce the calmag today. I am going to start using tap water as well because it is only about 140 TDS here.

[Weedhound]

Ok well you should pick one and stick with it......if you use RO water....you need Cal Mag. If you use tap water.....you shouldn't need Cal Mag.

Right now they look like they need some good minerals etc so decide which way you want to go and go for it!

[JeffersonBud]

I introduced cal-mag a few minutes ago. 35ppm for now and I will slowly go up as needed. I was reading the sticky for Botanicare products and was under the impression that for cal-mag the grower was using equal doses of grow to cal-mag with RO water. That was just his experience so we will see.

The water temp maxes out at 72 and drops to 68.
The PH is holding steady at 5.8. this meter is great! I have always calibrated it every week but it never needs it. It is only off by 15 ppms after 3 weeks of use but calibration fixes that.
Its weird how the ph of RO water is so low. 3.9 i measured. guess thats due to some carbon gas in the water.

PPM's with pro grow and cal-mag are at a total of 180. I bet they love those trace elements.

[Weedhound]

Sounds good.....I'd stick with the RO water and CalMag if those are working for you. Tap water is fine as long as your ph stays stable with it and it has enough calcium, minerals, etc....for your plants. Again....just not both together. ;)

Good luck.

[JeffersonBud]

Thanks for the help Weedhound.

made some butter. Nice and green. Double Fudge brownies.

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[Weedhound]

Oooooo thats' LOVELY looking. Buckle up your seat belt though when you take your ride with that stuff. :D

[JeffersonBud]

got a recipe up of what I made in that section of the forum. I let the butter simmer for 21 hours on low. Got up and stirred it all night. will post results when I am able to function.

[JeffersonBud]

Funny I just saw who posted the Botanicare line above. haha. thanks weedhound.

[JeffersonBud]

Plants are looking better. The ppm did not drop at all but stayed level. I am leaving for 24 hours so I diluted to res down to 150 and put the ph at 5.6 I am expecting them to eat and for the ph to rise while I am away to 5.8 since I can't calibrate it. I am wondering if I should add a few more drops of cal-mag since I am only at 30 ppm with it and 120 with the grow.

[JeffersonBud]

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sorry for the blur. The Lens is not meant for close-ups nor did I mount on a tripod.
See the weird twisted growth on some. Is that over ferting?
what about the edges of the leaves on the big one? is it too hot by the lamps? I put my hand under it at plant level and it was fine. what do you guys think?

[Weedhound]

That big leaf in the last photo does look too hot to me. See if you can pull it away from your lighting and whether it improves or not.

I personally like to run CalMag at a 50/50 ratio with the grow nutes so naturally I'm going to tell you to add more. If those were my plants.....at that age...I've have them on 100ppm EACH of CalMag and Grow nute (RO water!!!) and then a couple mls of Liquid Karma to come out with about a ppm of 250ppm.....and maybe even higher if they were doing fine with that number.

I personally think you can raise your entire number somewhat....(I also think part of your problems are your numbers are too low) but I wouldn't do it unless you will be around to keep an eye on things. Otherwise...if you are leaving and can't watch..... I'd go with 75ppms each of CalMag and Pro grow.

Edit: I wrote at the beginning the big leaf in the last photo.....I meant the leaf in the FIRST photo looks hot.....sorry....:wtf:

[JeffersonBud]

Thanks. i will bump up the calmag 25 ppms. that seems safe.

[Weedhound]

Better safe than sorry......;)

[JeffersonBud]

running 165 ppms. 110 of grow and 55 of cal-mag with the 25 ppm difference. I will post in a day when I return and if things look good then I will bump the cal-mag another 25 ppms. Sorry for so many posts but i tend to blurt out every detail so i can get the best help possible and maybe can develop a journal for these 2 strains.
Cheers!

[JeffersonBud]

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Things are looking good after 24 hours. the res when refilled to top level with water sat at 150-155ppms which shows they are eating 10-15 ppms over a 24 hour period with a stable ph of 5.8. I increased my cal-mag which brought it up to 180 so I have about 70 ppms of cal-mag to 110 grow.

[Weedhound]

Good, good, keep it up! :thumbsup:

[JeffersonBud]

So I am going to use tap water after all since it is only 130-140 ppms. The plants are looking good this morning but need to spread out so I am going to divide them into another prop tank. I have had water sitting out for the last few days so I am good on that. I am not sure how much cal-mag I need though.
I don't think there is much cal and mag in the water here so I will start off small at 20 ppms and see how they adjust. Post pics later

[Weedhound]

Ok....but I honestly wouldnt use any with your tap water....you don't need one single extra ppm on board. ;)

[JeffersonBud]

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Tub #1 has the larger roots
tub#2 has the smaller roots

I took the ones (tub#2) with smaller roots and switched to my tap water which I will be using from now on. after two days of the tap water sitting out the ppms were at 100. I put 80ppms of grow and 30 ppms of cal-mag. I will go no further then 30 ppms of cal-mag for the rest of the veg just to be safe and see if its okay with the tap water. I will be switching the big one (tub#1)
in 3 days to tap water. I will also be nixing the ppms of the tap water. so I will always be subtracting 100 ppms from the total of the ppm meter.

tub #1 .........160 ppm 100 grow 60 cal-mag
Tub#2..........110 ppm 80 grow 30 cal-mag

both tubs have a few mls per gallon of liquid karma and 10 ml/gal of hydroguard

[JeffersonBud]

So I don't think they like all fert in there just yet. My ppms went up over the night and I noticed some fert burn on the lower leaves. I dumped out both or the res. in place for dechlorinated tap water which is set for 5.8 p.h. I will check them to see if the ppms rise in the container from the leeched roots.

[Weedhound]

They're getting there....lots of this is trial and error as you are discovering. Your plants are doing pretty well for a first grow.....no worries just keep trying and watching the plants for their reaction. Catching a reaction early is your best weapon in hydro. ;)

[JeffersonBud]

Thanks for the boost Weedhound. So the fresh water has been there for a day. should I put fresh water in and remove the salts that were leeched or leave the water in for a few more days? They only have at the most 3 sets of "true" leaves. I do have fresh dechlorinated water. i have to get more ph down at my local store so I will post pics when I get back.

[JeffersonBud]

Made a few improvements. Light hood made of Duct tape, cardboard, and mylar. Works like a champ.

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Tub 1 is at 20 ppms
tub 2 is at 10 ppms

plants are loving the leeching. the stalks are greener already. No more burn detected at all.

[stinkyattic]

Tight internodes. Good. You're on your way. Check for any signs of scorch on the hood periodically. A safer material would be aluminum roof flashing bent to shape and spray painted flat white on the side meant to be reflective. Just a thought since you are in a closet and fire is a definite concern.

[Weedhound]

Jefferson let me clarify something here. If your ppm goes down then while it IS an indication that your plants are eating it is NOT what you want to go by as far as ppms go.

The norm is more for the number to rise after a few days but either way you don't really know exactly WHAT the plant is eating so frequent rez changes and additions are still very important. What I'm saying is that your ppms going down is not necessarily a good thing. It's more of an indication of deficienies in your solution than plant health.

[JeffersonBud]

It went down when all the plants were in 1 prop. Since I have 2 I decided to split them up to give the roots more room. I think the ones in the larger tub got a little burned because I took 7 plants from that container. Not enough plants to feed at that level.

Thanks for the posts guys. The vent stays cool so no fire will spring up. You can't see it but there is a fixture inside the hood and it is lined with aluminum then the mylar on top of that. Thanks for the advice gents

Cheers

[JeffersonBud]

I will also be moving in a few weeks so I will build a proper closet

[JeffersonBud]

I see what your saying about the ppms. the light is not very hot so I knew the leaves were not heat damaged. The lower ones were effected first with drooping and curling happening as well. The stalks looked a bit more white and red and not green. The burns started to move up the leaves slowly. the leaves were coming out twisted and mutated as well. Thats why I leeched. After 24 hours the stalks are greener, and most of the red has gone away. The new leaves are looking healthy as well with no mutation or missing blades. I started my ferts as well when there were only 1 set of true leaves with 5 points. I have read that most wait tell 3 or 5 to start.
Simply put I think they look better today then yesterday. What would you guys suggest? tub 1 is now at 10 ppm down from 20 and tub 2 is still at 10 ppm. all are set to 5.8 ph

[JeffersonBud]

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After a few days this shit began to appear on 1 plant. Only a few other plants have spots but none like this one. Its pretty localized to that plant. I think it might be an insect problem but I can't find any insects or larva. I took the ones out of the soil and thought I saw a few thripes. I also say some flying thripes about 5 days ago and killed them all. The ppms in the res are now at 60ppm in tub 1 and 40 in tub 2. The plants otherwise look healthy. the large one shows no signs of spots or necrotic spots so I know they are getting enough calcium and nutes. The large one however seen in the picture has some dark edges on the lowest most leaves.

I have a Hot Shot Strip, the one OpieYutts suggests. What should I do?

The ph is at 5.8 for both so no problem there

[JeffersonBud]

Could this also be due to the fact that I am only running 60 ppms? They got a little burnt on the edges before but could the spots be from a lack on nutrient like P or K. I went up 30 ppms today already so I know I want to increase slowly. How many times should I be changing out the res? I filled the water to the 3 gallon mark about an inch from the top. and the roots look nice. lots of new white ones.

Note: on the infected plant the top leaves are looking great with no spots at all. Is the plant taking nutrients from the old leaves to the new ones?

[Weedhound]

Yes I certainly think both things are possible here Jeff...not enough total ppms and the plant is drawing on the older reserves to compensate.

I change things out completely once a week but draw off SOME old solution and add new at least once between then as well.

Since you are using tap water I would put them on approx 150-200ppms Pro Gro and see what they do with that. I honestly don't think you can get into too much trouble at that number. I still don't think you need any CalMag is you are using tap water but if you have Liquid Karma you could toss in 2m/gal of that as well.

Edit: let me clarify....thats 200ppms of Pro Grow IN ADDITION to whatever ppms your tap water already has in it.

[JeffersonBud]

Thanks Weedhound. I think I was being a bit too conservative with the nutes. I am adding ppms slowly back into the res as not to shock them. they are up to 90 so I doubled in the last 24 hours. I will add more tomorrow. I put 3 drops of Superthrive into each res and will be using some diluted Colossal Bud Blast tonight as a foliar spray when the lights are off. both products I heard are awesome and I think they will like the extra nitrogen on the leaves. I did add a few drops of LK as well as 3 drops of cal-mag in the res for good measure.

Cheers

[JeffersonBud]

Holy S*IT that helped. they both ate 20 ppms out of the res so they def. needed it Took the big tub to 130 ppm today and the small to 115. They look perky so I will folair spray again when the lights are off with the diluted BudBlast. Tomorrow I will take some of the solution out of the res since its midweek and replace with some fresh H20 and maybe bring the nutes to 150 if no signs of burn. Thanks for the advice!

Cheers

[Weedhound]

Now give it about 48 hours before you increase your number again......slowly does it. It takes about 24 hours to see a change so if you're adding things TOO quickly by the time you see a problem more damage is done than them going a little light on the chow for a day. ;)

And lets see a new pic of them when you can swing it. :)

[JeffersonBud]

Took these 10 mins before they sleep.

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Look a ton better. added another 6500k bulb and a 2700K one I had lying around. so now they have 4 6500k 26w cfl's running at 100w each and 1 2700K 26w cfl running 100w too. 500 total watts.

They have a fixture at Home Depot I saw. Flouro X or something like that. it replaced all their MH and MV outdoor lamps. It claims that at 100w its equal to 1000w incandescent light. it runs 6500K as well. Looks like a beast and at 60 bucks, seems pretty good. Thoughts?

[JeffersonBud]

The stems are stretched when they went into the dome from seeds but i figured they will be in 6 inch net pots when they flower and I can just bury the stems with the clay rocks until the first leaves saving 4 inches off every plant.

I think I want to build some recirculating dwc buckets. i have an ebb and flow right now for the flowering but I love those dwc units. I will be getting into my new place and will build a proper veg and flower room.

I do have a nice 6 inch inline fan and a 600w hps bulb, digial ballast and awesome hood. i want to add a few 6500k bulbs during flower on the sides as well.

[hatch]

look's like you have it going you way:wtf::wtf::wtf::rasta::rasta::rasta::thumbsup:

[JeffersonBud]

Thanks! In the wee hours of the morning, when the lights turned on, I changed out both res. It has been 7 days and now they are on thier second week of veg. I brought tub 1 to 140 ppm and tub 2 to 120. It is now mid day into their sun and they look great. Leaves are not over perky but straight out. They also ate another 10 ppm a piece but i will take WH's advice to wait 48 hours before upping it again. No signs of burn and I did spray with the Colossal BudBlast last night. 3ml of LQ and 2 ML of cal-mag were put in as well. i need a better ML beaker. The GH eye dropper I got with the liquid PH test kit, before I got my meter, I don't think is very accurate but maybe its just me.

[JeffersonBud]

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[Weedhound]

NOW you're starting to look good there Jeff!! :thumbsup: Yes.....do go slow...its VERY easy to start adding everything you can think of and then rush around playing defense. Take your time now and you'll be very glad you did later. ;)

[JeffersonBud]

Starting to get the hang of this Hydro stuff. So I want to do DWC buckets. Recirculating or just dwc? I have seen a few DIY's. what are the best type in your opinions? Any solid links with good pictures? I would like to do stand-a-lone units because of my different strains plus it has less parts.

[JeffersonBud]

Checked the res mid day on both. Tub one dropped 40 ppm. tub 2 dropped 10 ppm with no burns. did not spray with colossal budblast last night. will top off the grow nutes back to normal for another 24.

[Weedhound]

Ha ha....ate 40? Pigs!! Time to up them again......:thumbsup:

[JeffersonBud]

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After I topped off the nutes they ate another 20 last night out of each res. brought it up to 180 ppm in the large and 150 in the small. They are looking good. Space is getting crowded and a canopy is starting. The large one wants to be topped but i have to wait a few days so I can do it in my new place. Moving larger plants is a problem.

[Weedhound]

Jeff when you talk about numbers you added......does 180 represent the total ppms (including what's in your water?) or is 180 strictly what you added?

[JeffersonBud]

180 is the number off ppms minus the water ppms. So if my water is 100 ppms the number of total ppms on my TDS reader is 280. I stated that a bit ago but through all my babbling probably wasn't too clear.

So 180 ppm of nutes in the large tub and 150 ppm of nutes in the smaller.

[the image reaper]

I think when you are referring to "20 ppm" for example, you meant to say "TDS" ... ?? ... a typical hydroponic grow when expressed in ppm would be '1350 ppm' , etc ... I apologize if I've misunderstood, but your numbers are way different than mine (I know there are 2 kinds of meters, but that's all I know) :jointsmile: (sorry, I'm confused)

[JeffersonBud]

From looking at your sticky on the botanicare line, I am close to your schedule. I am using the tap water but with about 1ml/gal of cal-mag and 2ml/gal of liquid karma. About 160 ppm of grow alone in the big tank but with about 10 plants in them with rather large roots.

[Weedhound]

Ok....it certainly wouldn't be that I got stoned and forgot.....:D

Looking good Jeff....nice and green and happy looking. Good job. :thumbsup:

[JeffersonBud]

I thought total dissolved solids on my meter were in ppm. I can read E.C. and TDS which is read in ppm on my meter.

I am using a Milwaukee 3 in 1 TDS/PH/EC meter but I calibrate for TDS because I have a lot of that buffer solution. My probe is the sm02 which can read PPM all the way to 4000.

[Weedhound]

That kind of rocks.....mine only goes two about 3000

Reaper tds=total dissolved solids
ppm=parts per million.

and as Jeff says...for hydro purposes they mean the same thing. His IS low.....he's leaving out the ppms (or tds) of what's in his water....is using tapwater.

[the image reaper]

That kind of rocks.....mine only goes two about 3000

Reaper tds=total dissolved solids
ppm=parts per million.

and as Jeff says...for hydro purposes they mean the same thing. His IS low.....he's leaving out the ppms (or tds) of what's in his water....is using tapwater.

right, sorry ... I said 'TDS' when I meant to say 'EC' ... I know that the EC type units number differently than the PPM-type, like I bought ... that's what was confusing me, I was wondering which scale you were referring to (I shouldn't ask questions like this when I'm toasted :D)

[JeffersonBud]

Yeah it is very confusing when comparing different meters. The conversions and all are a nightmare. I know that EC is more accurate because TDS is just a calculation but I found the information, like in WD's Botanicare schedule, on ppm use is more widely available to me.

[JeffersonBud]

Well mid day on their 18/6 cycle and things couldn't be looking better. I need to trim and take clones soon because they want to offshoot out of the sides like crazy. I will have to wait a day or two to do this but already have the rapid rooter and top.
Tub 1 ate 50, yes 50 ppm last night and 4 LARGE cups (12 oz) of water. I topped them off with nutes and water and went up another 20 ppm.
tub 2 ate 20 ppm and about a cup of water but the root mass is smaller in the plants and there are not as many in the system. topped them off as well and went up another 10 to bring them to 60 ppm.
here is where both stand:
210 ppm for tub1
160 for tub 2

I am mid-way through week 2 of veg.

[JeffersonBud]

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Getting crowded

[Weedhound]

Yeah.....you better send all those to me and I'll take care of them for you. :D

[JeffersonBud]

Haha! To bad you cant send clones in the mail.:D

[hatch]

Hell Ya, They have really Jumped:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Don't forget what you are adding now, ( write it down in a log, record everything!!!) It's real handy to be able to look back & have something to compare with in the future!!!!

Great Job, Keep it up,_/^\_,:pimp::pimp::pimp:

[JeffersonBud]

Been taking care of that in a home made journal. Everything I do is recorded. I have not seen a journal for NL x AK47 and Sugarberry (WW x Blueberry) before.

[hatch]

Good Man, You can figure alot out with your own Record's!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: